0:01

Spirituality is the

0:03

invisibility of what appears. It

0:05

is how we are in

0:07

touch with worlds and our

0:09

in conversation with dimensions that

0:11

don't show up in our

0:13

healing paradigms or even how

0:15

we think about justice. So

0:17

it's always going to be

0:19

inadequate if you send someone

0:21

out with a clean bill

0:23

of health back into a

0:25

world that co-produced the very

0:27

conditions that gave birth to

0:30

the crisis. Welcome to Point

0:32

of Relation with Thomas

0:34

Hubel, a podcast that

0:36

illuminates the path to

0:38

collective healing at the

0:40

intersection of science and

0:42

mysticism. This is the

0:44

point of relation. Today's

0:47

episode was previously recorded

0:49

for an online event with

0:51

Thomas. Although it took place

0:53

at an earlier date, the

0:56

insights and discussion remain

0:58

relevant. Our

1:00

guest for today's episode is

1:02

Bio Okomolafe. Biokomolafe rooted with

1:05

the Yoruba people in a

1:07

more than human world is

1:09

a widely celebrated international speaker,

1:11

posthumanist thinker, poet, teacher, public

1:14

intellectual, essayist, and author. He

1:16

is the founder of the

1:18

Emergence Network and host of

1:20

the online post activist course.

1:22

We will dance with mountains.

1:25

We hope you enjoy this

1:27

conversation. I'm

1:30

sitting here with my friend

1:32

Bio by a cumulafe. Bio,

1:34

first of all, warm welcome

1:36

to our course. And

1:38

I was just going

1:40

to say we had

1:42

already multiple conversations and every

1:45

time I learned something, every

1:47

time I love your

1:49

refreshing perspectives, there's always

1:51

like some edge to

1:53

your kind of exploration. and

1:56

I love that very much and

1:58

it's organic, it's unfolding. challenging

2:01

and it's beautiful. So

2:03

thank you for being

2:05

who you are in

2:07

the world and the

2:09

voice that you bring.

2:11

I appreciate you very

2:13

much. And so today

2:15

I would love us to

2:17

explore a bit because

2:19

there's modern psychology and

2:21

modern psychology has a or

2:24

maybe in a all

2:26

kinds of methodologies of inner

2:28

work and transformational work,

2:30

put a strong emphasis on

2:33

the individual. Yes. Hyper

2:35

individualized world is a

2:37

lot that that individual has

2:39

to take, has to

2:41

perform, and often our healing

2:44

journey also becomes like

2:46

our trauma integration or psychotherapy

2:48

journey becomes also like

2:50

a personal success story.

2:52

And I somehow feel that

2:55

there is too much

2:57

weight on the individual and

2:59

there is too little

3:01

inclusion sometimes, not always,

3:03

but sometimes on the context

3:06

and the wider ecosystemic

3:08

or collective context we are

3:10

part of. And so

3:12

I would love to explore

3:15

a little bit with

3:17

you how you look

3:19

at what I just said

3:21

and then also bringing

3:23

and connecting this to like

3:26

a deeper spiritual bowing.

3:28

context, exploration, and what's the

3:30

resourcing, what's the power

3:32

that we gain maybe

3:34

for our healing journey and

3:37

for our collective healing

3:39

journey through the spiritual dimension.

3:41

Anything that comes to

3:43

mind, let's start there.

3:45

Thank you, brother. And you

3:48

know, you're right in

3:50

noticing that It

3:53

seems modern individuation is losing

3:55

its capacity for buoyancy, right?

3:58

We're speaking about practices that

4:00

are ecological, that are archeological,

4:03

individuals don't just emerge in

4:05

the world, right? The world

4:07

is relational and processual and

4:10

co-emergent and open-ended and experimental

4:12

and tentative. And so there

4:15

is a sense in which

4:17

Individuation as Simon Don would

4:20

put it is an ongoingness.

4:22

We're constantly, we're not individuals,

4:24

we're individuations, right? So modernity

4:27

kind of closes the door

4:29

on many things. It cuts

4:32

out so many things in

4:34

order to preserve the myth

4:36

and the story of the

4:39

individual as a dissociated independent

4:41

suffering thing as a self.

4:44

that is, that has a

4:46

divine interior, right? And a

4:48

mute exterior about him, right?

4:51

It's such a very, I

4:53

mean, it's been useful to

4:56

create rocket ships and to

4:58

create Elon Musk. But at

5:01

this time, I think we're,

5:03

we're kind of at an

5:05

edge where that story is

5:08

difficult to maintain. separation is

5:10

very difficult to sustain as

5:13

a cultural myth at this

5:15

time. And that brings us

5:17

to how even our paradigms

5:20

of healing have to change

5:22

shape, have to take on

5:25

new shape, right? Because healing

5:27

over time has been, you

5:29

know, popular discourses around healing

5:32

centralised the individual. It's the

5:34

individual that sits in the

5:37

couch, right? Just to put

5:39

it uniquely, it's the individual

5:42

that lies in the Freudian

5:44

couch. It's the individual that

5:46

presents herself before the... therapist

5:49

in the clinical setting. It's

5:51

the individual that is, that

5:54

needs to be fixed, you

5:56

know, in those paradigms that

5:58

think about fixing. But now,

6:01

I'm not, we're not so

6:03

sure where the individual is

6:06

anymore. Like, Thomas is not

6:08

the thing seated before me.

6:10

distinct from his room. Fumice

6:13

is the room, right? Fumice

6:15

is the chair. Fumice is

6:18

intergenerational longings. Fumice is microbial

6:20

gestures. Fumice is furniture, right?

6:22

And the intensity and density

6:25

and the thresholds of a

6:27

force field. How do you

6:30

treat a force field? Right.

6:32

How do you how do

6:35

you medicate a fourth field?

6:37

How do you think about

6:39

the healing of a fourth

6:42

field? So there is a

6:44

lot of tension in the

6:47

spaces right now, especially introduced

6:49

by post-humanist, animist, feminist, new

6:51

materialist and indigenous discourses that

6:54

are inviting a different iteration

6:56

of healing that may not

6:59

look like healing as we

7:01

understand it. This is why

7:03

the Lewis and Guateri could

7:06

formulate schizoanalysis analysis. Right, but

7:08

there is a sense in

7:11

which getting away from the

7:13

couch is the thing to

7:16

do, not staying in the

7:18

couch, but getting away from

7:20

the couch. So I do

7:23

think that we are in

7:25

something of a spiritual crisis,

7:28

and it might be helpful

7:30

to come to a definition

7:32

of terms, however hesitant I

7:35

am to stabilize myself behind

7:37

definitions. But when I think

7:40

about the spiritual, I am

7:42

immediately at once in touch

7:44

with the heritage of my

7:47

Christian background. I no longer

7:49

identify as Christian, but I

7:52

grew up in a Christian

7:54

world. And the spiritual was

7:57

the other part of the

7:59

material. it was the material

8:01

realm and the spiritual realm.

8:04

It was a dichotomy of

8:06

some kind of binary. It's

8:09

hard for me to think

8:11

about the world in that

8:13

way right now. But there

8:16

is the other story, faintly

8:18

perceived in the Yoruba indigenous

8:21

accounts of spirituality, which might

8:23

suggest to us that the

8:25

spiritual is how the material

8:28

travels Right?

8:30

So it's not the material

8:33

versus the spiritual, it's that

8:35

materiality is mysterious in itself.

8:37

It's not the materiality of

8:40

determinism. It's not the materiality

8:42

of John Locke or Descot.

8:44

It's a mysterious, it vibrates

8:47

at the speed of mystery.

8:49

Materiality is how, or spirituality

8:52

is how materiality is how

8:54

materiality is how materiality is

8:56

how materiality is how materiality

8:59

is how materiality travels. But

9:01

let's I'll just offer that

9:03

to our compost heap of

9:06

a conversation. Yeah, that's amazing.

9:08

I would love to hear

9:10

more also from you, because

9:13

what I hear it implies

9:15

when the material world's moving,

9:17

so you're speaking a lot

9:20

about the movement when you

9:22

say troubles. So maybe let's

9:24

speak a little bit about...

9:27

movement. You said something before

9:29

that I really love this

9:31

like you I cannot I'm

9:34

paraphrasing now but you said

9:36

something I I'm hesitant to

9:38

stabilize myself behind as a

9:41

through terms. That's a love

9:43

way to say it. But

9:46

then also it seems like

9:48

there's an impact on on

9:50

some kind of movement. And

9:53

when I listen to you

9:55

I get a deep sense

9:57

of movement. Yes, and maybe

10:00

you can speak a little

10:02

bit to the dimension of

10:04

movement because it seems like

10:07

spirituality somehow. connected to some

10:09

sort of movement when I

10:11

listen? And maybe you can

10:14

speak a bit deeper to,

10:16

yeah, to that. I mean,

10:18

it's Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and

10:21

locating a piece of matter

10:23

in space time, that the

10:25

moment you try to locate

10:28

it, you lose a sense

10:30

of other kinds of measurements.

10:32

If you can determine its

10:35

speed, then you lose a

10:37

sense of location. If you

10:40

determine its location, then you

10:42

don't know how fast it's

10:44

traveling. There's a sense of

10:47

complementarity that is at work

10:49

here. But the gist is

10:51

that everything moves. And the

10:54

world is movement. Even the

10:56

individual which is often stabilized

10:58

as uniquely and exclusively independent

11:01

is a concatenation of movements,

11:03

viral, microbial, ancestral. You know,

11:05

we're not put together as

11:08

much as we are a

11:10

coming together and falling apart

11:12

simultaneously. Right. So the modern

11:15

tries to locate us. It's

11:17

just its most overriding imperative

11:19

is to locate the self

11:22

in a final way. And

11:24

this leads to troubling realities

11:26

like racialization and colonization and

11:29

extractivism and neoliberalism. It leads

11:31

to these very troubling kinds

11:34

of dimensions, even pathologization, right?

11:36

This is a proper subject

11:38

and this is an improper

11:41

subject. This person is autistic,

11:43

therefore inadequate, and this person

11:45

is neurotypical, therefore a proper

11:48

person. La Khan, you know,

11:50

thought about language and identity

11:52

in very, very... stabilizing ways

11:55

that in order to think

11:57

you need language and if

11:59

you don't have language then

12:02

you're an improper self which

12:04

of course totally banished the

12:06

intelligence of autistic children and

12:09

autistic people at the time

12:11

that he was speaking of

12:13

course that gave rise to

12:16

the work of Delini but

12:18

that's a different point. So

12:20

it seems here brother that

12:23

I cannot but think in

12:25

terms of movement. The world

12:28

is chaos. The world is

12:30

difference. And this difference precedes

12:32

identity or language. And we're

12:35

in constant negotiation with the

12:37

world around us. And I'm

12:39

not even talking about in

12:42

linguistic terms, I'm talking about

12:44

the ways our skins are

12:46

navigating and conducting experiments at

12:49

different dimensions with the world

12:51

around us. We are even

12:53

seated. in some kind of

12:56

conversation with evolutionary pathways and

12:58

paradigms. Even just to have

13:00

a drink of water is

13:03

to ignite pathways across space

13:05

time, right? Across species, across

13:07

multi dimensions of how, you

13:10

know, drinking a cup of

13:12

water is the creation and

13:14

the demise of worlds, right?

13:17

It's the death and the

13:19

birth of worlds simultaneously. So

13:22

this is quite overwhelming for

13:24

for if you are clerk

13:26

in an office space in

13:29

a cubicle and your work

13:31

was to put everything in

13:33

a file you would be

13:36

overwhelmed if things were spilling

13:38

constantly right? Spillage is the

13:40

I think in my understanding

13:43

of things a very very

13:45

terrible crisis a scandal to

13:47

the modern. Right, but that's

13:50

all that that's what that's

13:52

what seems to be happening

13:54

every time the psyche is

13:57

not the psyche is not

13:59

within, the psyche is ecological

14:01

and is moving. And there's

14:04

no way to come to

14:06

terms with the world without

14:08

noticing how it moves, how

14:11

it shifts. And that's how

14:13

I think about the spiritual.

14:16

I don't think about the

14:18

spiritual as a different realm,

14:20

you know, that interrupts the

14:23

material over time or sometimes.

14:25

That feels very, very mechanistic

14:27

and modern. The

14:30

Eurobog people did not have

14:32

that kind of conception, which

14:34

is very interesting to me.

14:37

They thought about spirits as

14:39

living in the material realm,

14:42

because spirits are only finer

14:44

kinds of bodies. So

14:46

the spiritual is still the

14:49

mysterious material. It's queer

14:51

materiality. It's how the

14:53

world refuses to be still.

14:56

Yeah that's beautiful and again like

14:58

I want to say I said

15:00

this is the last time that

15:03

I love the flow of your

15:05

words your eloquence how you put

15:07

words into a movement that's already

15:09

a sign when I listen to

15:12

you it induces in me like

15:14

a movement it induces in being

15:16

with them and I'm joining a

15:18

movement that you form through your

15:21

words is like joining a like

15:23

when two rivers flow together and

15:25

they create water patterns. So that's

15:27

how I feel when I

15:29

listen to you. And I

15:31

enjoy this. It's like it's

15:33

kind of playing in my

15:35

neurons as music. So it's

15:37

lovely. It's a thing here.

15:39

And first of all, I

15:41

so much resonate with many

15:43

things that you just said.

15:45

I think also that it's

15:47

the beauty in the

15:50

movement and the beauty in

15:52

being more and more

15:54

able to participate in

15:57

the movement that's unfolding.

16:00

versus trying to control that

16:02

movement from the past. Yes,

16:04

it would be like able

16:06

to open up to the

16:09

movement that's happening and immerse

16:11

oneself in it and be

16:13

able to be in this.

16:16

I love what you said

16:18

about the we are we

16:20

are constantly. like being you

16:23

said it differently but being

16:25

updated and in in a

16:27

deep exchange with the movement

16:30

that's happening that's different from

16:32

a preformed cup that is

16:34

kind of true life and

16:37

that's that's also when I

16:39

when I speak about the

16:41

in that we need to

16:44

open the context this this

16:46

moment that we are in

16:48

like we cannot anymore stay

16:51

with methodologies that are merely

16:53

addressing our personal and childhood

16:55

development, it's much bigger than

16:57

that. There is an ancestral

17:00

and there is a collective

17:02

dimension and they are all

17:04

interplaying, they're not separate or

17:07

they be look at this

17:09

and then we look at

17:11

that. So and I'm wondering,

17:14

if you want to speak

17:16

a bit more about, I

17:18

mean, I'm also very interested

17:21

to learn from you about

17:23

some of the principles of

17:25

African spirituality and the depth

17:28

of the depth of the

17:30

spirit speaking in that in

17:32

that voice or that form

17:35

and I don't know if

17:37

there if that's something you

17:39

want to go into. But

17:42

I would love to hear

17:44

more, you started already to

17:46

share a few principles before,

17:49

but to speak a little

17:51

bit more about how healing's

17:53

being viewed, how disease is

17:55

being viewed, like how, how,

17:58

what you said before. pathologizing

18:00

on non-pathologizing views of life

18:02

and how lives emerging all

18:05

the time. So if you

18:07

can speak a little bit

18:09

from that voice or your

18:12

connection to the depth of

18:14

the spirituality? Well, maybe the

18:16

first thing I'll say is

18:19

that there are as many

18:21

African mythologies and systems around

18:23

these matters of concern as

18:26

there are Africans or as

18:28

there are African cultures. So

18:30

it would be impossible to

18:33

speak about, of course, all

18:35

of them. since there are

18:37

many Africans within Africa. I

18:40

do feel compelled to say

18:42

a few things about some

18:44

of those that I've been

18:47

exposed to, like the Ebo

18:49

cosmologies of harmony restoration, which

18:51

was beautifully put together by

18:53

one of my supervisors, a

18:56

professor while I was doing

18:58

a PhD, Professor Peter Ebebo,

19:00

and he kind of convened

19:03

the idea of harmony restoration,

19:05

leading into Ebo cosmology. the

19:07

idea of disharmony being a

19:10

discontinuity or rupture that separates

19:12

us from the spiritual, right?

19:14

And the spiritual, of course,

19:17

is a deeper intensity of

19:19

the everyday, okay? So if

19:21

you would, they would say,

19:24

I'm not going to break

19:26

down the entire system here,

19:28

but of course there is

19:31

a sense in which harmony

19:33

is designated as a quadrant

19:35

or something that looks like

19:38

a four-angled shape, which is

19:40

a motif that appears throughout

19:42

evil culture, right? In fact,

19:44

before the British missionaries came,

19:47

the evils had a four-day

19:49

week, right, a four-day week.

19:51

Everything stands properly on force

19:54

in that conceptualization. is stable.

19:56

So when it becomes three

19:58

or when it becomes a

20:01

binary, when it becomes one,

20:03

it means many things at

20:05

many different levels, right? Some

20:08

of the ways that this

20:10

is no notice is that

20:12

you're caught off from community.

20:15

But if there's there ever

20:17

comes a time where you

20:19

are caught off from your

20:22

people. you're caught up from

20:24

your name, you're caught up

20:26

from sharing a cola knot

20:29

in the morning, you know,

20:31

you're caught up from the

20:33

sweltering heat of greeting each

20:36

other or sharing a meal,

20:38

then you become sick. Notice

20:40

that sickness has nothing to

20:42

do with the person itself,

20:45

but has everything to do

20:47

with paradigms and territories and

20:49

force fields, right? so that

20:52

the work then is how

20:54

do we restore you to

20:56

to the community how do

20:59

we restore you to eating

21:01

well how do we restore

21:03

you to having communion with

21:06

the plants around you how

21:08

do we restore you to

21:10

praying to your cheese which

21:13

is your god or to

21:15

your ancestor how do we

21:17

restore you to given sacrifices

21:20

well right so this is

21:22

a very very communal way

21:24

of holding space for for

21:27

people. That wasn't about fixing

21:29

you. It's not about your

21:31

issue. It's about what it

21:34

is doing to the village.

21:36

The village is the individual,

21:38

not the isolated self. That

21:40

brings me to the Euroboble

21:43

people too. I studied with

21:45

healers and... One of the

21:47

things that I noticed, your

21:50

bahillas above allows, one of

21:52

the things that I would

21:54

notice is how they displaced

21:57

the individual in the act

21:59

of... what you

22:01

might call in conventional therapeutic

22:04

settings, the intake interview, right?

22:06

Getting a sense of the

22:08

client, recording data, what's, so

22:10

tell me about yourself and

22:13

all those things and hmm,

22:15

and our has that we're

22:17

trained to do, right? Yeah,

22:20

you know, you know, the

22:22

drill. And so, you know,

22:24

they didn't practice the head

22:27

nodding, distancing, elitism that I

22:29

later that I that I

22:31

that I was trained in

22:34

as a psychotherapist. They they

22:36

were less bothered about me

22:38

as they were about the

22:41

invisible. It's as if their

22:43

posture was like, who are

22:45

the others here? Right? Who

22:48

are the other people here?

22:50

Who's your auntie? Who's your

22:52

uncle? Where do you actually

22:54

come from? Did your village?

22:57

eat well today, you know,

22:59

it was, it was, it

23:01

was, it's more about, also

23:04

that sense that we are

23:06

lineages, we are, we are

23:08

the self or the subject,

23:11

or the subjectivity is not

23:13

the isolated highway, it's a

23:15

milieu, it's, it's an entire

23:18

zythe just that is called

23:20

into the space, right? And

23:22

so the idea wasn't to

23:25

try to get to fix

23:27

you. And that was even

23:29

more emphasized when they recommended,

23:32

you know, interventions. They would

23:34

say something as crazy as,

23:36

at least to me, who

23:38

was interviewing them and speaking

23:41

with them and listening to

23:43

them, they would say something

23:45

like, how about you bring

23:48

a goat? And we kill

23:50

that goat together. and you

23:52

drop the blood of the

23:55

goat in this river. something

23:57

like that. And you would

23:59

say, how does I have

24:02

anything to do with my

24:04

feeling depressed? How does that

24:06

have anything to do? And

24:09

yet to them, the world

24:11

wasn't just this mechanistic cause

24:13

and effect machine. It was,

24:16

you know, it was something

24:18

more vibrant than cause and

24:20

effect. It was a spilling

24:22

together. Where the minuteest or

24:25

the remotest... artifact of being

24:27

is in solidarity, a strange

24:29

sensuous kind of solidarity with

24:32

the things that you're presenting

24:34

with in a healing context.

24:36

So already that vocation of

24:39

the public interrupts the interiority

24:41

of the private. The spirituality

24:43

from African cosmology is the

24:46

ones that I at least

24:48

I've spoken to. are very,

24:50

they gesture towards the public,

24:53

they gesture towards the trans

24:55

public, they don't situate the

24:57

individual as well as the,

25:00

as Western paradigms do. Yeah,

25:02

that's, again, like music and

25:04

they love, because, and most

25:06

probably also because we... And

25:09

for a long time we

25:11

have been fixated in a

25:13

way as society is so

25:16

much on individual development, it

25:18

feels like a breath of

25:20

fresh air to open that

25:23

up and feel, oh wow,

25:25

there is a whole. like

25:27

world and context that's so

25:30

important for well-being and well-being

25:32

is not in a locos

25:34

it's not in a location

25:37

it's kind of living as

25:39

the relationships that are flowing

25:41

to us and and to

25:44

me this feels like when

25:46

I listen to you I

25:48

it generates in me the

25:50

feeling of oxygen you generates

25:53

and you're feeling of like

25:55

I can breathe again and

25:57

I can breathe again and

26:00

I can into the movement

26:02

that is happening anyway,

26:04

that I'm swimming and

26:06

that feels very good

26:09

to me. I feel

26:11

like because I very

26:13

much feel that, and

26:15

I'm saying this now in

26:17

my words and then

26:20

you see how that

26:22

lends with you, but

26:24

that through that complex

26:26

trauma dissociation in our

26:28

global. world that so

26:30

much information is actually

26:33

more frozen, more held,

26:35

more structured, that that

26:37

sense of that my

26:39

liver communicates with that

26:41

part of a continent

26:43

that there is and

26:46

that there is an

26:48

interdependent flow and the data

26:50

flow around like the whole

26:52

world, that feels to me

26:54

so liberating so fresh so

26:56

energizing and the more we

26:59

think in in this small

27:01

boxes of ice then it

27:03

feels like the oxygen is

27:05

missing in the room and

27:07

so when I listen to

27:09

you I had again that

27:11

feeling like this feels so

27:13

healthy and it doesn't negate

27:16

individuation not at all but

27:18

it opens so that's beautiful

27:20

yes I mean the the The

27:23

story of psychology and

27:25

this disciplinarity has

27:28

always been tied with politics.

27:30

It has never been a

27:32

thing apart. Even the ways

27:35

that we think about trauma,

27:37

I think it's impossible

27:39

or I don't want to say

27:41

impossible because many

27:44

people do it, but it's

27:46

difficult at least for me.

27:49

who is tied to white

27:51

head in, Alfred North had

27:53

white head in, processuality,

27:56

the way the world

27:58

spills into itself. It's

28:00

difficult for me to

28:02

think about, say, trauma

28:04

without thinking about real

28:06

ways and the rise

28:08

of industrialization and the

28:10

demise of the welfare

28:13

state and

28:15

who has right to

28:17

compensation, who has right

28:19

to be seen as

28:21

a victim, therefore, racialization.

28:23

It's difficult for me

28:25

to think about trauma

28:27

as a clinical reality

28:29

without noticing that it

28:31

is also part of

28:33

a moral architecture that

28:35

is troublingly allied with

28:37

racial dynamics. And

28:39

I don't need to

28:41

surface the story, though

28:43

it's interesting, when I

28:46

tell the story, speaking

28:48

to my students about

28:50

Charles Dickens and how

28:52

a train ride killed

28:54

him in effect one

28:56

year after the accident.

29:01

And during that

29:03

time, there was

29:05

a scramble. It was like the

29:07

big scramble for Africa. There was a

29:09

scramble for how do we understand

29:11

this phenomenon. And

29:13

people like JJ, is

29:16

it Ericsson, would formulate

29:18

what is called a

29:20

railway spine. And the

29:22

railway spine was the

29:24

inaugural idea that initiated

29:26

the story of trauma

29:29

as this psychosomatic disturbance.

29:31

But even with that

29:33

framing, there was always

29:35

a sense of who

29:37

gets to become a

29:39

proper subject. How do

29:42

we pass between proper

29:44

and improper? Because the

29:46

moment you start to

29:48

think about disruption as

29:50

something that comes from

29:52

outside, you have already

29:54

drawn the line of

29:57

where the inside is,

29:59

right? And I I remember

30:01

speaking with these, you were bababalaws,

30:04

and they were flabigasted. They

30:06

were shocked that I would

30:08

think about voices in one's

30:10

head as pathology. Just very

30:12

strange, because that's how

30:14

I grew up. That's how most of

30:17

us, I dare say, grew up. You

30:19

know, voices in the head. That's auditory

30:21

how the solution. No, that's

30:23

a spiritual crisis. What if

30:26

that's an ancestor trying to

30:28

speak with you. You know, the

30:30

idea that our bodies are, our

30:32

bodies, psychology is

30:35

not the study of behavior

30:37

or the study of human

30:40

beings as it is the

30:42

manufacturing of subjectivity. That means

30:44

it leaves something out in

30:47

its ingredients to put together

30:49

a self that is proper.

30:51

It always leaves something out.

30:54

What it has discarded is

30:56

very interesting to me. and

30:58

essential part of spiritual

31:00

practice, definitely of our

31:02

spiritual practice in our

31:04

community. Meditation has many

31:07

many effects. It helps

31:09

us to synchronize ourselves

31:11

better with ourselves. It

31:13

helps us to digest

31:15

our experience. It helps

31:17

us to be more

31:19

regulated and integrated. And

31:21

it also helps us to

31:23

tap into the longer we

31:25

meditate, to tap into... deeper

31:27

states of consciousness to give

31:29

us a deeper awareness of our

31:31

life and life and connect us

31:34

to a more transcendent or

31:36

transpersonal reality. And so

31:38

I'm very happy that Susanna

31:40

and Martin are offering a

31:43

course on meditation where people

31:45

can exchange, ask the questions

31:47

that are coming up. Martin

31:49

and Susanna... I was studying

31:51

with me for 20 years

31:53

and running courses for I

31:56

think about 10 years and

31:58

really soaked in the... that

32:01

are also a combination of

32:03

our healing work and the

32:06

transpersonal work and can pass

32:08

that on beautifully. If you're

32:10

interested, I highly recommend to

32:13

join, become part of our

32:15

practitioner community. So you're most

32:18

welcome and most invited. Hello,

32:20

my name is Martin Burrus

32:23

and I'm Sessana Aldnov. We

32:25

are here to tell you

32:28

that you can deepen your

32:30

meditation practice and in Our

32:33

new online mini-course, we will

32:35

share our collective knowledge and

32:38

experience to help you, unlock

32:40

your next steps to enjoying

32:42

your meditation journey even more.

32:45

So the boss of us,

32:47

Martin and me, we have

32:50

studying with Thomas for nearly

32:52

20 years and have been

32:55

guiding meditation retreats in this

32:57

field of Thomas for 10

33:00

years. So for... A lot

33:02

of people, the collective energy

33:05

of the group and the

33:07

concentration in the group can

33:10

strengthen my individual practice that

33:12

could help me to dive

33:14

deeper. This course will meet

33:17

and practice meditation over a

33:19

four-week period. Whatever level you

33:22

are in your meditation practice,

33:24

you can benefit from learning

33:27

in this shared community space.

33:29

There will be live teachings,

33:32

you can ask questions, we

33:34

will have breakout groups and

33:37

in between sessions, home practices.

33:39

In this mini course we

33:41

will focus on the breath

33:44

and body so that you

33:46

can discover new keys to

33:49

expanding your capacity to experience

33:51

your vitality and aliveness even.

33:56

Click on the link

33:58

in the show notes

34:00

or visit Thomas Hubel

34:02

Yeah, it has to,

34:04

I mean, because it's

34:06

already in the definition.

34:08

The course begins on

34:10

April 17th. Yeah, I

34:12

completely agree with that

34:14

individual psychology has to

34:16

leave something out. That's

34:18

why I think it

34:21

has to, I mean,

34:23

because it's already in

34:25

the definition. And that

34:27

many other forces are

34:29

not being included in

34:31

experience. Yes. Yes. Yes.

34:33

Yeah. That's that's beautiful.

34:35

And so, um, when

34:37

when we speak a

34:39

bit about like, that's

34:41

spiritual depth, you said,

34:43

beautiful is something that's

34:45

deeper than the everyday.

34:48

And when we speak

34:50

about that movement, so

34:52

how is spirituality in

34:54

your understanding, like important,

34:56

a resource, like in

34:58

our everyday life, but

35:00

also in our healing

35:02

journey coming back to

35:04

before when the individual

35:06

has its own success

35:08

story in healing itself,

35:10

then it becomes like

35:12

a... like running a

35:14

marathon. But I feel

35:16

that that just opening

35:19

the context often is

35:21

speeding up the healing

35:23

process so much, but

35:25

that often entails also

35:27

or includes like a

35:29

much deeper connection to

35:31

the deeper than the

35:33

everyday for many people

35:35

that that's naturally opening

35:37

up in that process

35:39

when we open up

35:41

that box. of the

35:43

individual. So maybe you

35:45

can speak a bit

35:48

to the to your

35:50

experience when in your

35:52

healing work, how what

35:54

kind of and also

35:56

how how you speak

35:58

to like a very

36:00

ingrained, like, and it's

36:02

changing a bit now,

36:04

but a very ingrained

36:06

scientific separation from that

36:08

context. Like this, it

36:10

sounds like like they

36:12

are tool, there's somewhere

36:14

spirituality, there's scientific objectivity,

36:16

scientific experiment, and like,

36:19

yeah. So let me

36:21

speak of it to

36:23

that. Let me speak

36:25

to that a bit

36:27

and why I feel,

36:29

you know, sometimes we

36:31

conflate spirituality for supernatural,

36:33

the supernatural, and I

36:35

feel the supernatural is

36:37

possibly the most unfortunate

36:39

word in the history

36:41

of words. It's very

36:43

unfortunate. I've told the

36:45

story a long time

36:48

ago of Haley's comment.

36:50

And I think I

36:52

read this when I

36:54

was a teenager. I

36:56

think it's Haley's comment.

36:58

And who's the guy?

37:00

Haley? I know his

37:02

name is Haley, but

37:04

I forget his first

37:06

name. But this was

37:08

invoked when he started

37:10

to speak. There was

37:12

a time when comets

37:14

were interpreted as angels

37:17

in flight, in Europe,

37:19

right? In Christian Europe.

37:21

like, oh, that's an

37:23

angel, you know, it's,

37:25

that's an angel delivering

37:27

the word of the

37:29

Lord, you know, it's,

37:31

it was easier to

37:33

think of comets that

37:35

way. And then these

37:37

dastably astronomers started to

37:39

try to interprete the

37:41

stars to heavens. And

37:43

one in question gave

37:45

a date for when

37:48

the comet would return

37:50

because he had studied

37:52

the cycles and he

37:54

said on this day

37:56

at you know in

37:58

this year. a

38:00

comment will come. And everyone,

38:03

it became, I think at

38:05

this time, based upon this

38:07

reading, I had many years

38:10

ago, it became this feverish

38:12

attempt, it became a debate

38:15

between religion and faith, faith

38:17

and science, or the idea

38:20

of the supernatural, or a

38:22

world where nature needs no

38:24

God, right? which is a

38:27

false dichotomy but that's where

38:29

I'm heading to. So Haley

38:32

didn't live to see his

38:34

comment return but when it

38:36

returned it kind of broke

38:39

it kind of broke something

38:41

right because if it can

38:44

be predicted then it's not

38:46

an angel in flight then

38:48

there's no need for God

38:51

then what do we do

38:53

about the supernatural then the

38:56

church is in crisis because

38:58

in their own schema we

39:00

can speak with and communicate

39:03

with is not a God

39:05

is not a world where

39:08

God is required. It's just

39:10

a machine, right? And I

39:12

think it's a false dichotomy.

39:15

It's a it's a broken

39:17

binary here. The supernatural is

39:20

unfortunate because it kind of

39:22

offers us only two options.

39:25

A world that is intensely

39:27

mechanistic and therefore amenable to

39:29

scientific description and exploration and

39:32

control and prediction. All the

39:34

world where anything goes because

39:37

God decides it, you know,

39:39

there are no laws per

39:41

se because he can just

39:44

tinker with stuff and get

39:46

things done the way he

39:49

wants. Both, both do injustice

39:51

to an animist world that

39:53

is open-ended. That doesn't require

39:56

a Gandalf to make it

39:58

happen. And a

40:00

world that is in itself

40:03

spiritual because it is not

40:05

finished, right? The unfinishedness of

40:07

the world is what is

40:10

where the spiritual lies for

40:12

me. Where was I going

40:14

with this brother? Your question

40:17

was about dichotomy. Yeah, the

40:19

dichotomy. The binary between science

40:21

and spiritual. Yes. But before

40:23

that, you wanted me to

40:26

speak to something that I

40:28

was really excited to speak

40:30

about it and I just

40:33

tripped off. I get lost

40:35

very easily in these in

40:37

these songs. You wanted me

40:40

to speak to something? Was

40:42

it just the dichotomy? The

40:44

binary? Yeah, right. And how...

40:46

how we are living in

40:49

a world that is defined

40:51

by this a little bit

40:53

by this binary because the

40:56

language of the world became

40:58

science and then yes it

41:00

seems like a tuneness with

41:03

the whole spiritual dimension and

41:05

how you speak to that

41:07

that was yeah so so

41:09

it in that sense that

41:12

the spiritual for me is

41:14

is the integrity of and

41:16

the fidelity of the relationships

41:19

we have with a world

41:21

that is unfinished, right? It

41:23

is not the, it's not

41:26

a quality of distance. This

41:28

is my Christo-centric heritage, the

41:30

quality of a distant God

41:32

who needs to be with

41:35

us. No, it's the apophatic

41:37

quality of matter. That is,

41:39

if you could, if you

41:42

could... put matter under a

41:44

microscope and finally describe it,

41:46

then maybe there's no need

41:49

for the spiritual. But that

41:51

even the microscope is a

41:53

measuring. Every measurement is a

41:55

cutting device. Every measurement we

41:58

make cuts out something. We

42:00

don't see the world as

42:02

it is. Our bodies, and

42:05

maybe this is really where

42:07

I wanted to go with

42:09

this, that our bodies are...

42:12

are so large and complex

42:14

and territorial and this is

42:16

what the modern misses out

42:18

on you know it kind

42:21

of like I said earlier

42:23

it it wants to stabilize

42:25

us within a sentence within

42:28

the grammar of presence a

42:30

metaphysics of presence and so

42:32

it wants to put a

42:35

box around a box around

42:37

This is what it means

42:39

to be famous. This is

42:41

what it means to be

42:44

Ben or Sherry. But our

42:46

bodies are doing things at

42:48

other levels and let me

42:51

just speak to that a

42:53

little bit brother. I don't

42:55

know if you read this

42:58

report that in on Mount

43:00

Fuji of Fiji in Japan,

43:02

not Fuji Fiji. is that

43:04

in Japan? I think that's

43:07

in Japan. Well, it's considered

43:09

a pristine mountain, where the

43:11

clouds hang low and it's

43:14

come up in images and

43:16

it's beautiful. Sorry, my jet

43:18

black green is working on.

43:21

They found myproplastics, right, in

43:23

those clouds. And in... caves

43:25

that have been shot out

43:28

from public participation for decades.

43:30

They found microplastics as well.

43:32

They shut it out. They

43:34

closed the doors. No human

43:37

interference. And yet we are

43:39

still there. To me, that

43:41

is the spirituality of the

43:44

nuclear human. But even when

43:46

we don't go there, our

43:48

bodies are participating in some

43:51

dimension with turtles. with mountains

43:53

with hidden caves. We are

43:55

spread out that way. Now

43:57

many might see what has

44:00

microplastics got. do with depression.

44:02

I'm trying to say that

44:04

our bodies are not this.

44:07

This is not the body.

44:09

Our bodies are a lot

44:11

more molecular and micro-looking than

44:14

what appears. So spirituality is

44:16

the invisibility of what appears.

44:18

It is how we are

44:20

in touch with worlds and

44:23

are in conversation with dimensions

44:25

that don't show up in

44:27

our healing paradigms or even

44:30

how we think about justice.

44:32

So it's always going to

44:34

be inadequate if you send

44:37

someone out with a clean

44:39

bill of health back into

44:41

a world that co-produced the

44:43

very conditions that gave birth

44:46

to the crisis. If you

44:48

say, oh, you're good now

44:50

because you've done the work,

44:53

right? Well, you put them

44:55

back into a socio materiality

44:57

that is like a... What's

45:00

that wheel? Where the racks

45:02

are. It's like a wheel

45:04

that co-produced and churns and

45:06

churns the same kind of

45:09

problematic situations. Then we're going

45:11

to keep coming back. You're

45:13

going to keep the psychotherapeutic

45:16

context is going to be

45:18

unfortunately the manufacture of clients.

45:22

Yeah, I love this like

45:24

what you said about the

45:27

body or so that that

45:29

the view that we currently

45:32

hold about the body and

45:34

the nervous system like that

45:37

the nervous system is this

45:39

anatomic structure yes that's here

45:41

and that's your property and

45:44

only bios living there and

45:46

that's the close versus oh

45:49

that nervous system is a

45:51

bio computer we are all

45:54

the living record of humanity's

45:56

history and it's and this

45:59

is so and again like

46:01

I feel like when we

46:04

speak I the whole time

46:06

I have this. feeling of

46:09

expansion. Like I have this

46:11

feeling of breathing and oxygen

46:14

and this sense of more

46:16

freedom. So that when I

46:19

when I listen to the

46:21

open context, not just the

46:24

focus here, the open context,

46:26

then feels to me so

46:29

much richer, so much more

46:31

open. And also it's and

46:34

at least that's that's coming

46:36

up for me when I

46:39

listen, then my my preformed

46:41

set of how the world

46:44

might be actually needs to

46:46

leave and I'm much more

46:49

called into an ongoing relational

46:51

presence. Yes. Like ongoing relating

46:54

with what is because that's

46:56

the source of insight. Yes.

46:59

But that's a very different

47:01

thing than that is being

47:04

taught in many places because

47:06

the preformed idea about life

47:09

is much more prevalent than

47:11

being in the fluidity of

47:14

a relational data transfer all

47:16

the time. Yes. And yes.

47:19

So for me this feels

47:21

very, yeah, fluid. Like I

47:24

get a sense of fluid.

47:26

That is good to hear,

47:29

brother. The spaciousness is what's

47:31

missing in our paradigms of

47:34

justice and of healing. Today,

47:36

we're kind of stuck and

47:39

we're becoming a lot more

47:41

brittle in the ways that

47:44

we shape even ideas of

47:46

safety, for instance. It's becoming

47:49

increasingly conformist and proto-fascist. So

47:51

if you don't add here

47:54

to preset. predesignated notions of

47:56

identity. then there's something wrong

47:58

with you. That creates the

48:01

anxiety of categoricity. And that's

48:03

what whiteness does well. White

48:06

modernity, which is again as

48:08

I've described to you rather

48:11

in previous conversations, is not

48:13

white people. That's whiteness during

48:16

this reductionism again. Whiteness is

48:18

not white people, but it

48:21

has been deployed as a

48:23

speculative term in black scholarship

48:26

to think about the ways

48:28

that the world is. increasingly

48:31

uniform in creating dissociation. And

48:33

I think that that cutting

48:36

away of our tentacular relations

48:38

with ancestry, and ancestry not

48:41

as a, when people hear

48:43

ancestry, they often, well, I'm

48:46

not, this is not accusatory,

48:48

and this is not a

48:51

monolith of an idea. But

48:53

it seems people think we

48:56

connect, we take the step

48:58

to connect to ancestry and

49:01

there's some truth to that.

49:03

But whether you take the

49:06

step or not, you are

49:08

ancestral is the point. It's

49:11

not a decision that, let

49:13

me connect with answers. It's

49:16

not a toolkit. Like I'm

49:18

going to speak to an

49:21

ancestor today. It's that you

49:23

are the troubling. continuity and

49:26

discontinuity of matters that were

49:28

never finished, right, of questions

49:31

that were never fully articulated,

49:33

of answers that will never

49:36

fully land, right? So the

49:38

idea of let's get ourselves

49:41

together, where we can be

49:43

fully whole and complete, is

49:46

already disjunctive. And no, that's

49:48

not the word. rigid rupturing

49:51

away that reinforces the modernity

49:53

that I speak about. Yeah

49:56

and it also the notion

49:58

and the thing that shows

50:01

up in spirituality very often

50:03

it seems like there is

50:06

an aim and once I

50:08

get there everything will be

50:11

good. Yes and yes it's

50:13

a romanticization Disney Disney. Exactly

50:15

exactly and I think that's

50:18

that's very important and it's

50:20

also what you just you

50:23

just mentioned it yourself that's

50:25

that like the the unwillingness

50:28

to be in the fragility

50:30

of a life that is

50:33

that is scary at times

50:35

cannot be fixed with the

50:38

an ultimate end of the

50:40

story. Yes, but that's what

50:43

that's what we often perpetuate

50:45

this notion in our society

50:48

and so and I think

50:50

but if we can see

50:53

more that the end of

50:55

a perfect ending is a

50:58

reflection of a lot of

51:00

un- unsafe and a lot

51:03

of scared parts of us,

51:05

then I think then we

51:08

become much more vulnerable in

51:10

the relationship here. Because then

51:13

it needs to be more

51:15

so feared and there. The

51:18

possibility of the solution doesn't

51:20

work. So then it's about

51:23

us and not about where

51:25

we're going to land. And

51:28

I think that's very powerful.

51:30

very much reasoning. Yeah. You

51:33

know, it lends itself to

51:35

the conceptualization of the spiritual

51:38

bypass, and we can speak

51:40

about that. How about we

51:43

do that? Yeah, let's do

51:45

that. So spiritual bypass, maybe

51:48

you give it a shot.

51:50

I mean, you know, what

51:53

word comes to mind is,

51:55

it's one about, I'm just,

51:58

I'm just passing through. This

52:00

world, I forget the Christian

52:03

song, we sang it about

52:05

this world we're just passing

52:08

through. We don't belong here,

52:10

we belong elsewhere. It's almost

52:13

Elon Moskian in his aspirations

52:15

that if we go to

52:18

Mars, then the human as

52:20

a colonial territory won't follow

52:23

us. Machine guns won't follow

52:25

us. We will arrive there

52:28

and start on a clean

52:30

slate. the clean slate is

52:32

the problematic thing here. We

52:35

start at the beginning or

52:37

the end or we end

52:40

at the end, but we

52:42

hardly ever live in the

52:45

middle of things. The middle

52:47

is noxious and disturbing. And

52:50

I think the idea of

52:52

the, you've already beautifully spoken

52:55

to it, rather without naming

52:57

it that way, the idea

53:00

of a bypass is I

53:02

think it's helpful to some

53:05

degree in noticing the reductionism

53:07

at work. Like, like we

53:10

kind of populate the spiritual

53:12

with utopian sentiments, right? And

53:15

so, if only we can

53:17

get there, yeah, then all

53:20

things will be well. We're

53:22

just passing through. I'm just

53:25

a passing through, right? If

53:27

only we arrive there, which

53:30

is not to say that

53:32

the... I mean, there's another

53:35

element here that I don't

53:37

want to go deep into,

53:40

but the nihilism of blackness

53:42

is subtly expressed in the

53:45

idea of a hereafter or

53:47

an afterlife, right? And I

53:50

recognize that as well. But

53:52

there is also the sense

53:55

in which people try to

53:57

reduce, try to get aside

54:00

pain and the suffering. and

54:02

the immediacy of trouble by

54:05

creating metaphysical safety. Right? And

54:07

with metaphysical safety I can

54:10

get... aside or I can

54:12

bypass as one would say.

54:15

The other dimension to this

54:17

brother is that bypassing is

54:20

becoming a universal accusation. And

54:22

it's worrisome, right? It's that

54:25

every attempt to outthink or

54:27

rethink or reframe the linearities

54:30

and the practices that were

54:32

used to is immediately amenable

54:35

for that accusation. It's like,

54:37

oh, you're doing spiritual bypassing,

54:40

you're bypassing, but sometimes it's

54:42

not, it's not bypassing, it's

54:45

sidestepping the logic of containment,

54:47

right? For instance, calling healing

54:49

into question. And

54:52

noticing that sometimes the

54:54

way we respond to

54:56

the crisis is the

54:58

crisis is that are

55:00

linked and networked with

55:02

suffering is not by

55:04

passing, you know, and

55:06

noticing that sometimes the

55:08

way we respond to

55:10

the crisis is the

55:12

crisis is not by

55:14

passing. It's sidestepping the

55:16

logic that we're used

55:18

to. But so there

55:20

is a sense in

55:22

which we are gifted

55:24

with a conceptualization that

55:27

names something and And

55:29

then we take that

55:31

name and we paint

55:33

the town red with

55:35

it, right? Trauma wasn't

55:37

such a big word

55:39

decades ago. It's now

55:41

the biggest word. Everyone

55:43

is traumatized these days,

55:45

right? And that is

55:47

that is troubling to

55:49

me. Yeah Yeah,

55:51

I love it and I

55:53

think you said something very

55:56

interesting. You said like how

55:58

bypassing word bypassing becomes the

56:00

bypassing by putting it in

56:02

a disrelated way onto certain

56:04

actions because attunement and presence

56:07

is also the discernment where

56:09

we feel, oh, now somebody

56:11

is actually in a disrelated

56:13

way bypassing a certain dimension

56:16

of life. but actually another

56:18

person that does something that

56:20

looks very similar is not

56:22

bypassing and the assessment lies

56:24

again in the attuned relating

56:27

that I cannot have a

56:29

fixed idea about bypassing but

56:31

I actually need to have

56:33

a moment to moment to

56:36

moment assessment of life is

56:38

a constant practice of presence

56:40

and is so important because

56:42

Otherwise we end up in

56:44

exactly what you said and

56:47

there is a kind of

56:49

a fashionable word but we

56:51

are putting it like a

56:53

poster on everything because of

56:56

the very thing we are

56:58

doing the very thing that

57:00

we are talking that we

57:02

are saying. I have half

57:04

a mind for us right

57:07

now brother in this conversation

57:09

to institute a new word

57:11

and call it double bypassing

57:13

but I fear that immediately

57:16

we say double bypassing that

57:18

in itself. will lead to

57:20

a triple bifur. A blue

57:22

city instead of a red

57:24

city. Yes. Yes. But that's

57:27

that's that's beautiful because again,

57:29

like everything is either attuned

57:31

and is is in relationship

57:33

or is is actually doing

57:35

the very thing that it

57:38

describes like and we're doing

57:40

the yeah, we're repeating we're

57:42

using the epistemology and the

57:44

resources of the very thing

57:47

we're critiquing to critique and

57:49

therefore we become part of

57:51

that the conditionality of its

57:53

sustenance. Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

57:55

that's very beautiful. Yeah, so

57:58

thank you for that. That

58:00

was a great a reminder

58:02

of how important it is

58:04

to stay related and then

58:07

that informs me what's bypassing

58:09

and what not become a

58:11

thing by itself. Yes, yes,

58:13

yes. So by it's so

58:15

lovely to talk to you,

58:18

I mean, I feel very

58:20

energized that I could go

58:22

on for a long time,

58:24

but I see our time.

58:27

So is there anything? Like

58:29

given our conversation that you

58:31

want to mention before we

58:33

conclude here. Maybe I'll add

58:35

something else. Jean-Noree would speak

58:38

about, in a conversation an

58:40

interview we had, there was

58:42

called The Hospital is Ill.

58:44

Jean-Noree was one of the

58:47

early founders and operators of

58:49

La Board, which is where

58:51

the lose, not the lose

58:53

of Guatari and Delini did

58:55

some work post- Second World

58:58

War France and he would

59:00

say the hospital is ill

59:02

and I just want to

59:04

use that to launch into

59:06

a brief noticing that sometimes

59:09

it is the case. We

59:11

can speak about the spirituality

59:13

of the individual and by

59:15

that I mean all the

59:18

forces and tensions and attentional

59:20

spaces that give rise to

59:22

the culture and to the

59:24

world in creativity of the

59:26

individual with all its troubles

59:29

attached. That spirituality is traveling

59:31

now itself. That spirituality is

59:33

breaking down and it's dissipating

59:35

cracks in its architecture. So

59:38

that new forms of spirituality

59:40

are emerging now, brother. And

59:42

that's what I would... think

59:44

of as the spirituality of

59:46

the cracks. And the spirituality

59:49

of the cracks is not

59:51

about, you know, it's not

59:53

a dismissal of healing as

59:55

a paradigm as much as

59:58

it is a troubling, a

1:00:00

calling into question, right, of

1:00:02

the individual as a monolith,

1:00:04

the individual as the dissociated

1:00:06

self. It's calling on different

1:00:09

kinds of fidelity, different kinds

1:00:11

of practices. And the only

1:00:13

way we get there is

1:00:15

collective experimentation. Right, it's a

1:00:18

politics of collective experimentation, which

1:00:20

whose legacies go back all

1:00:22

the way to indigenous insights

1:00:24

about the archetypal, the trickster,

1:00:26

that when things start to

1:00:29

break and spill, you need

1:00:31

to travel, go with the

1:00:33

tension, go with the trouble.

1:00:35

If you stay put in

1:00:37

your idea of I'm at

1:00:40

home and I'm all good,

1:00:42

I'm at well, it's whole,

1:00:44

then you might be frozen.

1:00:46

in that in Kosovo or

1:00:49

Kosovo space. So I think

1:00:51

at least for some of

1:00:53

us, hopefully for many of

1:00:55

us, it's time to travel.

1:00:57

It's time to travel. Home

1:01:00

is no longer homely or

1:01:02

hospitable. It's time to travel.

1:01:04

That's fantastic. I love it.

1:01:06

I love it. And by

1:01:09

us. Thank you so much.

1:01:11

This is a great contribution

1:01:13

to our our community here

1:01:15

and I'm sure that many

1:01:17

people will enjoy and really

1:01:20

feel like moved by the

1:01:22

movement of our conversation. So

1:01:24

thank you so much. It's

1:01:26

lovely to see you and

1:01:29

I hope a lot more

1:01:31

conversations and yeah, as well.

1:01:33

Yeah, right. Thank you. Thank

1:01:35

you so much. Thanks

1:01:41

for listening to Point a Relations

1:01:43

with Thomas Huber. Stay connected and

1:01:45

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