0:01

Our greatest power is the fact

0:03

that we can learn these skills

0:05

and we can grow and that

0:07

cohesion and embodiment that you describe

0:10

is our natural way of being.

0:12

And so to just be able

0:14

to be encouraged that your practice

0:17

is worth your time. Welcome to

0:19

Point of Relation with Thomas

0:21

Hubel, a podcast that illuminates

0:23

the path to collective healing

0:26

at the intersection of science

0:28

and missuses. This is the

0:31

point of relation.

0:33

Diane Musho

0:35

Hamilton is

0:37

an award-winning

0:39

mediator, author, and

0:42

a teacher of

0:44

Zen meditation. Her

0:46

next book is

0:48

Waking Up and

0:50

Growing Up, Spiritual

0:52

Cross Training for

0:54

an Evolving World.

0:57

My name is Thomas Huvel and

0:59

I'm very happy to be sitting

1:01

here with Diane, was your hand

1:03

with them. Diane, a warm welcome. Long

1:05

time, I didn't see and hear you.

1:07

Yeah, it's very good to see you too,

1:10

Thomas. Yeah, I remember the times,

1:12

like some years ago you were part

1:14

of our training programs and we had

1:16

fun then and then a period where

1:18

we didn't see each other and I'm

1:21

happy to see you again. Yes, I'm

1:23

very happy to see you and explore

1:25

what we've been up to. Yes,

1:27

let's explore. I'm curious what

1:30

happened. It's sometime a pandemic

1:32

passed, like a bit of

1:34

a people in the world passed.

1:37

And yeah, let's see where we

1:39

are. And so let's see how, how,

1:41

just to catch up a little

1:43

bit, how did you are growing

1:45

and waking up help you in

1:47

the last years? Oh, yeah. Well,

1:50

if we, if we just go

1:52

back to the beginning of the

1:54

pandemic, I, what I recall is

1:56

that It was the initial.

2:01

was one of tremendous rest. Like

2:03

I was very happy to experience

2:05

the world kind of slowing down

2:07

a little bit and my obligations

2:09

started to lessen and I felt

2:11

myself spending a little more time

2:14

outside and some time in nature.

2:16

And so I would say for

2:18

four or five months it was

2:20

like retreat for me. It was

2:22

really a very, you know, of course

2:25

I was concerned about the well-being of

2:27

everyone and I recall that there was

2:29

a lot of deaths happening in Italy

2:31

and in certain parts of the U.S.

2:34

and whatnot. So there's always that concern

2:36

about everyone's well-being, but just for my

2:38

own system, not just not having so

2:40

much to do on a daily basis

2:42

was really, and in a certain way,

2:45

be able to respond to my own

2:47

contemplative nature, you might say. being alone,

2:49

being with myself, having time to think

2:51

and to feel and being a lot

2:54

outside was really a welcome thing.

2:56

And then the texture of it

2:58

changed from me because my mother

3:00

was an assisted living. She developed

3:02

COVID and then she developed long

3:05

COVID and then eventually she had

3:07

a cardiac arrest from COVID. So

3:09

I lost my mom during the

3:12

pandemic. due to COVID. And then

3:14

I also lost a nephew who

3:17

had been struggling with addiction, who

3:19

overdosed during the pandemic. And then

3:21

my son developed psychosis, so it

3:24

went from very restful to very

3:26

challenging. And so then the question

3:28

of how does practice, how does

3:30

our spiritual intention and our fundamental

3:33

desire to be wakeful and contribute

3:35

to the world, how did that

3:38

come about? How was I served

3:40

by? practice at the time and

3:42

it made it an enormous difference.

3:45

And in a way Thomas, I

3:47

think having that three, four, five

3:50

months right at the beginning, I

3:52

got very settled in myself. So

3:54

I think that encountering the fear

3:57

that I would feel in my

3:59

own or in the bodies

4:01

of others. You know, I

4:03

spent some time in a

4:05

hazmat suit taking care of

4:07

my mother when she was

4:09

ill because the vaccine hadn't

4:11

been developed yet and I

4:14

had to be in relationship

4:16

to her. So mindfulness, of

4:18

course, was a huge part of

4:20

that. And then being in relationship

4:23

to the pain, if you will, you know,

4:25

just the challenge of... In

4:29

a certain way, being put in touch,

4:31

if you will, with their own

4:33

mortality, I think, including

4:35

me. Yeah. First of all, I'm sorry,

4:37

how do you lose this? Yeah, thank

4:40

you very much. I appreciate

4:42

that. Yeah. But I think that's exactly

4:44

like a, I think it's good

4:47

for us to hear also how

4:49

like, and I know you have

4:51

a long-term practice, how this

4:53

really makes a difference in

4:55

times that are challenging. And

4:57

so I think it's a

5:00

good entry, Gator, so into

5:02

our conversation, how why to bother

5:04

it all about waking up

5:06

and growing up, why not

5:08

just to live our lives?

5:10

I mean, why would you

5:13

spend tons of time meditating

5:15

if you can do other

5:17

things? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Watch

5:20

the Super Bowl, right? Yeah,

5:22

yeah, yeah. So why? What I

5:24

know your new book is

5:26

about to come out now

5:28

and it's waking up and

5:30

growing up. Maybe you can

5:32

tell us a little bit

5:35

about what you mean by

5:37

waking up and growing up.

5:39

Well, you and I met

5:42

some number of years

5:44

ago and I think that

5:46

the... We were magnetized in a way

5:48

by the work of Ken Willeber and

5:50

by the connections that we meant through

5:52

the integral world. And Ken is the

5:54

first person that I've encountered that framed

5:56

waking up, growing up. He also talks

5:59

about showing up. the cultivation of

6:01

presence and engagement. He talks

6:03

about cleaning up, which we

6:05

can visit shadow work, for

6:07

example, but he makes a

6:09

very powerful distinction. And I think

6:12

those of us who are contemplative

6:14

by nature, who wonder what our

6:16

purpose in life is, we're curious

6:19

about what it means to be

6:21

human, especially given the fact that

6:23

we die, you know, waking up is

6:25

the... You know the experience of

6:28

we would say in

6:30

the Buddhist tradition of

6:32

discovering our true nature

6:34

or Finding finding the

6:36

mystical core of Our

6:38

practice and so waking

6:41

up is very essential

6:43

because it really answers

6:45

our existential dread it

6:47

answers the the sense that we

6:49

actually don't need to be more,

6:51

that washing the Super Bowl is

6:53

actually fine, but without knowing that,

6:56

we can live in a very

6:58

divided way in the world, and

7:00

we can also feel that something

7:02

isn't complete, that something is amiss.

7:04

And we say in the Zen

7:06

tradition, we say that our intrinsic

7:08

wholeness is always there, but we

7:10

have to practice in order to

7:12

discover it. So to find that

7:15

deep belonging. that puts us so

7:17

much at ease so that we

7:19

can feel relaxed and available. And

7:21

then the other side I would

7:23

say the growing upside is

7:25

really related to dealing with

7:27

time. So our deepest nature

7:30

is in the timeless

7:32

domain and the uncondition

7:34

domain and the ever-present

7:36

quality of being itself,

7:38

where in the domain of time we

7:41

could talk about learning. and how it's

7:43

in our hard drive to want to

7:45

learn new things. And when we learn,

7:48

it's something that we previously didn't know

7:50

or couldn't do. And then when we

7:52

engage in time and we practice, we

7:55

learn. Or in the domain of what

7:57

Ken refers to as growing up, we

7:59

develop. he's very concerned with

8:01

adult development and how adults can

8:04

continue to grow and change throughout

8:06

their lives. And then finally, the

8:08

whole domain of the evolution of

8:11

consciousness and the evolution of life

8:13

on earth, the evolution of the

8:15

cosmos is really time-bound. So waking

8:17

up captures the timeless and growing

8:20

up captures the time-bound. And Ken's

8:22

very strong that to be a

8:24

whole human being. means to engage

8:27

both parts of who we are

8:29

and not just leave it

8:31

to one or the other.

8:33

Yeah, very much so. I

8:36

mean, that's also very congruent

8:38

in my experience. And let's

8:40

start with the growing up.

8:42

As adults, if we make

8:44

it into adulthood, that's a

8:47

question. But as adults, and

8:49

let's say that's like more

8:51

of our experience rests in

8:54

an adult perspective. How do

8:56

we grow? I mean, what

8:59

makes us grow? Why do

9:01

we use it as an

9:03

inherent drive? What is that?

9:06

I have to grow. And is

9:08

there a map? What do

9:10

we locate ourselves as an

9:12

adult or where we are

9:14

in our development? And can

9:17

we grow further? Like what

9:19

helps to grow further? Maybe

9:21

we can speak a little bit to

9:23

them. So there are different, there are

9:26

a few different things to consider

9:28

when we talk about growing up.

9:30

So when Ken talks about growing

9:33

up, he mentions the work in

9:35

developmental psychology of multiple intelligences, meaning

9:37

that in any domain that we

9:40

choose to grow. We can learn

9:42

how to experience more, we can

9:45

develop more skills, we can get

9:47

better at it. So it could

9:49

be art or aesthetics, it could

9:52

be athletics or kinesthetic, you know,

9:54

physicality, it could be our condition

9:56

and moving from very simple ways

9:58

of thinking to... more complex and

10:01

nuanced ways that might include paradox

10:03

for example so we can grow

10:05

in many many different domains. In

10:08

the domain that I work in

10:10

which is in the spiritual world

10:12

what's most important is the development

10:15

in a certain way of you could

10:17

say I think there are two

10:19

things and one relates I mean,

10:21

I think you and I have

10:24

this in common. It's ego development,

10:26

how we understand the self, for

10:28

example, and that we may grow

10:30

from egocentric to ethnocentric, where we're

10:32

aware of our group and our

10:34

social context, to world-centric, and where

10:37

we can identify with all of

10:39

humanity, humanity, and the challenges around

10:41

the world, the cosmic-centric, where we

10:43

actually experience identity falling away entirely.

10:45

So the self itself. evolves.

10:47

Who we think we

10:50

are can evolve. And

10:52

it's usually in the

10:54

direction of more, it's

10:56

more expansive, it can

10:58

be more complex, and

11:00

it also is generally

11:03

includes more emotional maturity,

11:05

more positivity, and more ability to

11:07

really tolerate the differences from others.

11:09

So one of the real bright

11:12

lines in adult development is the

11:14

way we relate to others. Are

11:16

we coming from an adversarial perspective?

11:19

You know, there's been a recent

11:21

election. One of the things that

11:23

magnetizes people's attention towards President Trump

11:26

is that he's a very instinctive

11:28

creature, and he loves us and

11:30

them, and he gets a lot

11:33

of energy from identifying and dealing

11:35

with his enemies. And that very

11:37

impulse will evolve so that what

11:39

was formerly us and them is

11:42

now all of us and all of them.

11:44

You know, so that direction of

11:46

more of more complexity,

11:48

more expansiveness, more inclusion,

11:50

more love is really

11:53

the direction that our

11:55

growing up is in. And one of

11:57

the key things there in there's been

11:59

a... long-term study on human happiness

12:02

that's been done at Harvard

12:04

and it's been going on

12:06

for over 75 years and

12:08

basically what one of the

12:10

conclusions of that study is

12:12

that the more we develop

12:14

emotionally meaning that we either

12:16

by emotional maturity what we

12:18

mean is that we're capable of

12:21

great feeling and being moved, and

12:23

because feeling is intelligent, it's communicative,

12:25

it's full of information, but we

12:27

don't get stuck in feeling. And

12:29

yet, if you think about how

12:31

we all grew up, none of

12:33

us was taught how to work

12:36

with our feelings, right? So emotional

12:38

development leads to greater relationships, greater

12:40

relationships lead to greater altruism, more

12:42

engagement with the community, more engagement

12:44

with the well-being of all. So

12:46

we move from just being concerned

12:48

about ourselves to those like us, to

12:51

those not like us, to all beings

12:53

and all life forms. So growing up

12:55

is a big engagement, you know. What

12:57

do you say that then, for example,

13:00

like growing up is being stimulated

13:02

in the 20th and the 21st

13:04

century through like all the tech

13:06

development, I mean, just the fact

13:09

that you and I can speak

13:11

right now, make you know, at

13:13

real sitting thousands of miles apart,

13:15

and we can talk about it.

13:17

adult development. But the last, you

13:20

know, decades, like the world has

13:22

become a global village,

13:25

certain identity structures, like

13:27

local and collective identity

13:30

structures are not relevant

13:32

anymore, or it could

13:35

change significantly. So how

13:38

is that part of

13:40

us even talking about

13:43

adult development? Well,

13:46

with technology, it's a

13:48

little bit tricky. I'm not entirely

13:50

sure. I can only really come

13:53

from my own experience. What

13:55

I would say is that it's

13:57

done a remarkable job of creating.

14:00

global community. And one of the

14:02

things that we experience when we

14:04

travel and teach is that regardless

14:07

of where we go to Hamburg

14:09

or Tel Aviv or South America

14:11

or Africa, that we find very

14:14

like-minded people wherever we go. And

14:16

so this ability to connect across

14:18

all of our experience with all

14:21

these different cultures is incredible. and

14:23

at the same time it also

14:25

allows those of us who are

14:28

maybe still a little more frightened

14:30

by difference because that is that

14:32

is something that happens in development

14:34

is that difference becomes interesting and

14:37

engaging rather than threatening and the

14:39

people who are afraid of each

14:41

other are also finding each other

14:44

so in a certain way I

14:46

see the global village but I

14:48

also see the the gangster energy

14:51

as well, where people find each

14:53

other in pockets and then kind

14:55

of build in whatever that sensibility

14:57

is. You know, a friend of

15:00

mine used to say, you know,

15:02

it used to be that you

15:04

would hear conspiracy theories by the

15:07

guy at the end of the

15:09

bar, you know, and there was,

15:11

you know, that was just the

15:14

person at the end of the

15:16

bar kind of drinking and ranting,

15:18

but... you know, now we can

15:21

find each other online and really

15:23

build those kind of energies. So

15:25

the energies are just much bigger

15:27

through technology, I think. And sometimes

15:30

I feel like those of us

15:32

who are interested in connection and

15:34

interested in growth and when we've

15:37

seen the destruction that fighting brings,

15:39

we're just not, we're interested in

15:41

finding our way through that, that

15:44

we almost don't have as powerful

15:46

voice online in some ways as

15:48

those who are using the energy

15:51

of us in them to really.

15:53

you know, build that energetic presence.

15:55

So for me, it's still out.

15:57

I've heard that the conclusion is

16:00

still out. I mean, I've heard

16:02

the expression that technology has made

16:04

major contributions to men's minor needs.

16:07

So I don't know. What's your

16:09

thought about that Thomas? I'd be

16:11

curious to hear how you feel.

16:14

Yeah, I know. I don't think

16:16

it's the fundamental basis to adult

16:18

development, obviously. I think technology, as

16:21

you said, like connected us, like

16:23

allows us to have a bigger

16:25

perspective because data flow is bigger.

16:27

I mean, before it was newspapers

16:30

at the time and we were

16:32

living in different regions and there

16:34

was. Out here at ethnicity was

16:37

like far away so we weren't

16:39

so confronted by it and then

16:41

we grew, the world grew closer

16:44

and closer and then wondering how

16:46

much like that complexity pushes us

16:48

to push certain lines of development

16:51

this skin or you say like

16:53

higher because we need to swim

16:55

in more complexity and if not

16:57

then we always have this urge

17:00

to simplify things to simplify things.

17:02

because we need to stay in

17:04

control of what we know. And

17:07

so I think that there is

17:09

a correlation, not just, and of

17:11

course the shadow gets amplified and

17:14

the development gets pushed into a

17:16

more world-centric direction. Yeah. So, but

17:18

I think also that's. And it's

17:21

also why I wrote a book

17:23

about collective trauma, because I think

17:25

the mention of the social traumatization

17:27

that creates this shadow is also

17:30

being amplified. You see it on

17:32

social media. You see it all

17:34

over. And I think that's why

17:37

I think there's also like some

17:39

of the dangers that we see

17:41

right now in the social polarization.

17:44

And so they are connected. But

17:46

the charge is in there, I

17:48

think is this kind of global

17:50

development. That challenges all the former

17:53

levels of development, ego-centric, ethnocentric, and

17:55

so are being challenged by the

17:57

pressure of that development. So that's

18:00

a little bit how I look

18:02

at this. I mean, there's so

18:04

much more to say about it.

18:07

Oh my gosh, it's such a

18:09

huge topic. I think in the

18:11

US. You know, in a certain

18:14

way, the other thing I think

18:16

it's really done is that it's

18:18

just changed kind of completely the

18:20

relationship to the media and the

18:23

news, so that people are listening

18:25

to podcasters, they're much more interested

18:27

in a long conversation, they're not

18:30

really looking at headlines, there's no

18:32

agreement about what the headlines are,

18:34

you know, you can read the

18:37

same headline and it's spun in

18:39

completely different ways, and it's kind

18:41

of hard to know what to

18:44

believe. So say compared to when

18:46

I was a kid, there was

18:48

a newscaster, his name is Walter

18:50

Cronkite, and he would always finish

18:53

his newscast by saying, and that's

18:55

the way it is, right? And

18:57

like, it's really hard to know

19:00

what way it is, because all

19:02

these different interpretive frames are used.

19:04

And so that's also an interesting

19:07

challenge. So we're getting very different

19:09

takes on what is true. So

19:11

how this growing up and waking

19:14

up? or maybe more or so

19:16

cleaning up. How does that help

19:18

us to navigate in the world

19:20

that is more and more complex,

19:23

is more and more fast, that

19:25

is more and more interconnected also,

19:27

and that is sometimes with AI

19:30

and content being manipulated, also maybe

19:32

sometimes less and less true? How

19:34

do we navigate in a world

19:37

that has all of that? Because

19:39

we can say, no, we don't

19:41

want fake news, we don't want

19:44

manipulated video, we can, yeah, I

19:46

can manipulate this video and have

19:48

us say stuff that we never

19:50

said. Yeah. It looks like Thomas

19:53

and Diana talking. That goes out.

19:55

So how, like, how do you

19:57

see growing up and waking up

20:00

helping us to navigate in this?

20:02

world that is very complex and

20:04

it's not anymore you can't you

20:07

can't control this world except if

20:09

you hook on you know if

20:11

you hold it like and simplify

20:14

which does justice to this well.

20:16

So how maybe you can speak

20:18

a little bit for our listeners?

20:20

Well I'll just speak to my

20:23

own experience. I mean at the

20:25

beginning of the book we talk

20:27

about for example the kind of

20:30

stresses that my my students experience

20:32

right now and you're naming a

20:34

lot of them. They're all very

20:37

wired into their devices, so they're

20:39

having trouble with their attention, I

20:41

would say. They're extremely busy and

20:43

they're moving in a very fast

20:46

pace, you know, transportation, automobiles, the

20:48

computer, how many emails you get

20:50

a day. There's a tremendous amount

20:53

of what they would describe as

20:55

busyness and distractedness. I think that

20:57

there's pressure around identity. here certainly,

21:00

you know, what your ethnic racial

21:02

gender identity is and how it

21:04

is you communicate that you do

21:07

or don't identify with it and

21:09

whether that's supported or not. So

21:11

there are those kinds of challenges.

21:13

There's a kind of an epidemic

21:16

of loneliness because these very immediate

21:18

communities that we used to enjoy

21:20

because we live next to each

21:23

other and we shopped in the

21:25

same place and now some of

21:27

us literally find more community online

21:30

than we find in person. Basically,

21:32

the way that we're responding in

21:34

the book to that, Thomas, is

21:37

we're saying that to wake up

21:39

is fundamental, because regardless of the

21:41

conditions, whether it's in the destabilization

21:43

of the government in the US,

21:46

or whether it's in the healing,

21:48

the work that you do on

21:50

the European continent, where people are

21:53

still trying to integrate the trauma

21:55

from the first two world wars.

21:57

or whether it's, you know, the,

22:00

you know, just the strife in

22:02

certain parts of the world, in

22:04

Israel right now, in Gaza, that

22:07

knowing who we truly are and

22:09

being deeply at home and ourselves,

22:11

and being able to experience a

22:13

kind of... indestructible unity with all

22:16

that is, is there's nothing more

22:18

important in my view for these

22:20

really turbulent changing fast-changing times because

22:23

rather than reaching out for a

22:25

certain quality of relationship one can

22:27

turn in and in that place

22:30

find both an experience of peace

22:32

and an experience of wellness, if

22:34

you will, or well-being, and some

22:37

sense that things are okay, even

22:39

under the worst of circumstances. So

22:41

there's nothing like spiritual awakening, but

22:43

spiritual awakening doesn't help us with

22:46

some of the issues that we

22:48

face. So for example... In my

22:50

life, I've been in a number

22:53

of different spiritual communities who are

22:55

certain kinds of challenges. It could

22:57

be scandals with the teacher, or

23:00

it could be certain kind of

23:02

disputes arising among the members, or

23:04

it could be issues related to

23:07

money or power, because those are

23:09

always coming up. And what I

23:11

saw was that spiritual communities were

23:13

not very well equipped to deal

23:16

with those. Ability, the skill set

23:18

that goes along with growing up,

23:20

which has to do with being

23:23

able to manage anxiety in your

23:25

body, knowing when adrenaline and cortisol

23:27

are flowing through your nervous system

23:30

and that, you know, we use

23:32

that language of triggered and that

23:34

you're triggered, so listening becomes impossible.

23:36

and thinking actually becomes impossible and

23:39

you can't remember why you like

23:41

somebody. So, you know, meditation creates

23:43

the ground of relaxation to be

23:46

able to work with the body

23:48

in that way, but without really

23:50

addressing it, the minute you're off

23:53

the cushion, somebody can disturb your

23:55

well-being relatively easily. So these communities

23:57

just, they didn't have those skills,

24:00

they didn't know how to negotiate,

24:02

they didn't know how to listen

24:04

to each other. So that's when

24:06

I really... found Ken's model super

24:09

helpful because I thought if waking

24:11

up won't let us work through

24:13

a conflict, you know, what good

24:16

is it? So the growing up

24:18

has a whole set of skills

24:20

and ways of relating with one

24:23

another that I think are really

24:25

essential if we're going to get

24:27

through hard times. So I would

24:30

say in relationship to what we're

24:32

experiencing now, the deep piece of

24:34

waking up and the skills and

24:36

the learning that we're doing with

24:39

one another both, you know, very

24:41

important. Meditation is a deep and

24:43

essential part of spiritual practice, definitely,

24:46

of our spiritual practice in our

24:48

community. Meditation has many many effects.

24:50

It helps us to synchronize ourselves

24:53

better with ourselves. It helps us

24:55

to digest our experience, helps us

24:57

to be more regulated and integrated.

25:00

And it also helps us to

25:02

tap into the longer we meditate,

25:04

to tap into deeper states of

25:06

consciousness to give us a deeper

25:09

awareness of our life and life

25:11

and connect us to a more

25:13

transcendent or transpersonal reality. And so

25:16

I'm very happy that Susanna and

25:18

Martin are offering a course on

25:20

meditation where people can exchange, ask

25:23

the questions that are coming up

25:25

Martin and Susanna. I was studying

25:27

with me for 20 years and

25:30

running courses for I think about

25:32

10 years and really soaked in

25:34

the teachings that are also a

25:36

combination of our healing work and

25:39

the transpersonal work and can pass

25:41

that on beautifully if you're interested

25:43

I highly recommend to join, become

25:46

part of our practitioner community. So

25:48

you're most welcome and most invited.

25:52

Hello, my name is Martin

25:54

Burris. And I am Sessana

25:56

Alnov. We are here to

25:58

tell you that you can...

26:00

your meditation practice. And in

26:02

our new online mini-course, we

26:04

will share our collective knowledge

26:06

and experience to help you

26:08

unlock your next steps to

26:10

enjoying your meditation journey even

26:12

more. So the boss of

26:14

us, Martin, and me, we

26:16

have studying with Thomas for

26:18

nearly 20 years. and have

26:20

been guiding meditation retreats in

26:22

this field of Thomas for

26:24

10 years. So for a

26:26

lot of people, the collective

26:28

energy of the group and

26:30

the concentration in the group

26:32

can strengthen my individual practice

26:35

that could help me to

26:37

dive deeper. This course will

26:39

meet and practice meditation over

26:41

a four-week period. Whatever level

26:43

you are in your meditation

26:45

practice, you can benefit from

26:47

learning in this shared community

26:49

space. There will be live

26:51

teachings, you can ask questions,

26:53

we will have breakout groups

26:55

and in between sessions, home

26:57

practices. In this mini course,

26:59

we will focus on the

27:01

breath and body. So that

27:03

you can discover. new keys

27:05

to expanding your capacity to

27:07

experience your vitality and aliveness

27:09

even. Click on the link

27:11

in the show notes or

27:13

visit Thomas Hube.com/meditation dash course

27:15

to learn more and register.

27:17

The course begins on April

27:19

17th. Yeah, I... very much

27:21

agree and I always like

27:23

Ken's work inspired me from

27:25

like the beginning of my

27:27

20s I think and I

27:29

always love the complexity of

27:32

waking up growing up but

27:34

also cleaning up and showing

27:36

up they're all important. I

27:38

also think that the And

27:40

as you said, like that

27:42

there's the spiritual practice and

27:44

the timeless and for me,

27:46

the element of time is

27:48

represented in growing up as

27:50

you say, but also in

27:52

integrating our capacity to become

27:54

a grown up human being

27:56

because I think in many

27:58

ways and look at our

28:00

society, look at social media,

28:02

look at the political landscape,

28:04

how many conversations are grow

28:06

like mature and grown up

28:08

in a way. hold the

28:10

complexity of the conversation, you

28:12

find a lot of fragmentation,

28:14

polarization, othering. So I think

28:16

that these are, oh, this

28:18

is very, very important. If

28:20

you're talking about then just

28:22

meditation alone won't do that.

28:24

So it's very important. So

28:26

I think you beautifully framed

28:29

that. So what else can

28:31

we find in your book?

28:33

Growing up and waking up,

28:35

what's so you, you related

28:37

it a bit to the...

28:39

to what your students experience.

28:41

So when you go, what

28:43

else do we find that

28:45

can help us practice, help

28:47

us become more whole? Well,

28:49

I think the great spiritual

28:51

traditions still have a place.

28:53

You know, so I mean,

28:55

the humanistic perspective of secularism,

28:57

where we're not orienting to

28:59

the authority of a church

29:01

or of a particular spiritual

29:03

lineage, but we're actually free

29:05

to explore what is true

29:07

for us and how we

29:09

want to inhabit it. It's

29:11

really important, the freedom that

29:13

secularism gives us to be

29:15

who we really are and

29:17

not to feel like we're

29:19

subsumed in an Orthodoxy, but

29:21

I think that the great

29:23

traditions have so much to

29:26

offer us and that it's

29:28

really... It's really up to

29:30

us to help to evolve

29:32

them and to think about

29:34

them under these new circumstances

29:36

and these new pressures, but

29:38

I do think that, I

29:40

mean, I am encouraging people

29:42

to explore if there's a

29:44

way to relate to the

29:46

great tradition. in a way

29:48

that can be supportive. And

29:50

then we look at, for

29:52

example, what is the role

29:54

of ritual in a postmodern

29:56

or a post-modern life? And

29:58

I think ritual is so

30:00

deep in our evolution and

30:02

so beautiful that we can

30:04

engage our intention through a

30:06

series of actions or a

30:08

series of gestures with sounds

30:10

with... music with those with

30:12

chanting that we can do

30:14

in a group. Like it's

30:16

very soothing to our nervous

30:18

system to engage ritual and

30:20

to do it with others

30:22

is really powerful because our

30:25

intentions get bigger. So there's

30:27

a chapter on ritual that

30:29

I think is important. We

30:31

talk about the importance of

30:33

embodiment of course and doing

30:35

physical practices. We use that

30:37

language of cross training which

30:39

really comes out of you

30:41

know physical training. because we

30:43

know how important health is,

30:45

you know, and, you know,

30:47

nutrition and bodyment, and particularly

30:49

in postmodern times, we can

30:51

become tremendously disembodied, as we

30:53

know, sitting in front of

30:55

a computer screen, playing video

30:57

games all day, texting your

30:59

friends and looking at porn

31:01

on another screen, you know,

31:03

it's like not so good,

31:05

not so wholesome, you know.

31:07

So staying really connected to

31:09

the body, you know, it's

31:11

really, really, really important. And

31:13

then relationship, which is, you

31:15

know, you're so exquisite to

31:17

help people with that, with

31:19

healing. So I think we

31:22

address those in different ways,

31:24

and we just use examples

31:26

from our own practice, why

31:28

we find it's valuable in

31:30

these times, to have a

31:32

community, also, a sanga, where

31:34

you're not the only one.

31:36

You actually can build a

31:38

lot of commonality with others,

31:40

and then learn how to

31:42

enjoy your uniqueness and your

31:44

differences without being caught by

31:46

it. I mean, I first

31:48

learned about that working in

31:50

Germany when I would facilitate

31:52

the big mind process and

31:54

I would ask to speak

31:56

to a particular... and Germans

31:58

really don't like answering in

32:00

unison. You know, it just

32:02

brings up a lot of

32:04

bad feelings like when you

32:06

answer all the same at

32:08

one time that quality of

32:10

communion. So I would always

32:12

have to encourage the Germans

32:14

to remember that they're autonomous

32:16

beings and if something is

32:19

happening that they don't approve

32:21

of to take a stand.

32:23

Autonomy and communion are really

32:25

important. We get so mixed

32:27

up. We think we're going

32:29

to lose ourselves in groups

32:31

or that we have to

32:33

remain extremely autonomous. This word

32:35

sovereignty gets used in our

32:37

circles a lot, but sovereignty

32:39

without communion is meaningless because

32:41

interconnectedness is the truth of

32:43

who we are, right? So

32:45

community is great, you know.

32:47

There's that old saying, you

32:49

know, I love humanity, it's

32:51

the people I don't like.

32:55

So having a song go, you

32:57

get to practice. Right. No, that's

33:00

lovely. I completely agree. Like with

33:02

many things, you said, also with

33:04

the power of community, the power

33:07

of rituals, how healing rituals have

33:09

been lost in our postmodern world,

33:11

and I think need to be

33:14

brought back in the power that

33:16

they generate, is fantastic. And also

33:18

how we expose ourselves to the

33:21

parts that are triggering a difficult

33:23

for us voluntarily, not just for

33:26

life confronts us, but that we

33:28

sign up for the discomfort that

33:30

we experience sometimes. Yeah, that's all.

33:33

I mean, you also worked a

33:35

lot on mediation or conflict. pollution.

33:37

How is that part of your

33:40

book? Did this find a way

33:42

into this book? Because I know

33:44

when we earlier some musical we

33:47

talked about that and and also

33:49

how you are understanding of mediation

33:52

and conflict resolution. How with the

33:54

current polarization fragmentation? And there's so

33:56

few so much engine in many

33:59

societies at the moment. Is that

34:01

also part of it? And if

34:03

how? The conflict is, it's intrinsic

34:06

to relationship because, you know, We

34:08

talk about the miracle of we.

34:10

And the reason we is such

34:13

a miracle is because we're the

34:15

same and we're different. And so

34:18

the part of us that recognizes

34:20

one another is the same and

34:22

we give each other a unit

34:25

of experience. You know, where we're

34:27

soothed and we become one and

34:29

it's very, very lovely. Well, if

34:32

that isn't challenged by our differences,

34:34

it becomes complacent and often very

34:36

stagnant. If all we do is

34:39

reinforce how much the same we

34:41

are, there's no growth. So it's

34:44

our differences that really bring the

34:46

excitement and the learning and the

34:48

challenge to relationships. So conflict is

34:51

built in. Now some of us

34:53

are prone towards moving towards conflicts.

34:55

Some of us avoid. Some of

34:58

us always try to smooth it

35:00

out immediately. So we really look

35:02

at conflict as a tremendous opportunity

35:05

for growth. And for systems to

35:07

be challenged and stimulated, now doing

35:10

this at scale, I think, is

35:12

much more difficult. In the size

35:14

groups I work in, it's very,

35:17

very interesting and satisfying to work

35:19

with conflict because it wakes us

35:21

up when we're very stimulated. And

35:24

then we start to discover the

35:26

commonalities, and we add value, and

35:28

we explore both and. You know,

35:31

suddenly it flips and I see

35:33

it from your point of view

35:36

and you see it from mine.

35:38

And then there's this creative upwelling

35:40

of ideas and solutions. So on

35:43

a small scale, conflict is really,

35:45

really, can really be worked with

35:47

in a way that's very energizing

35:50

to individuals and to groups. But

35:52

I think once we hit a

35:54

certain scale, it's much more difficult

35:57

because people view... people are drawn

35:59

to the conflict without the skills

36:02

of working with it. So we

36:04

get magnetized online to wherever there's

36:06

like a dispute, you know, even

36:09

if it's between Drake and Kendrick

36:11

Lamar, you know, these rappers who

36:13

are, you know, battling it out,

36:16

and it's very energizing to experience

36:18

the battle. And, you know, in

36:20

this case, it's symbolic in a

36:23

certain way. It's being enacted in

36:25

symbolic ways, but, you know, there's

36:28

still harm. There's still harm being

36:30

done. So, you know, for me,

36:32

I've seen the inability to work

36:35

a conflict create tremendous harm. My

36:37

whole life, I've seen that. So

36:39

my experience is in small individuals

36:42

and groups and pockets of people

36:44

that are really developing a tremendous

36:47

skill set. And I would even

36:49

think that negotiators, perhaps, in... in

36:51

Gaza and Israel are doing some

36:54

really tremendous work right now with

36:56

conflict, but how you get the

36:58

population to engage in that same

37:01

way, you know, it's a much

37:03

more challenging question. Yeah, that's very

37:05

interesting to me because I think

37:08

the also the, like when you,

37:10

like what helps us to facilitate

37:13

like the current amount of tension

37:15

or polarization or fragmentation in our

37:17

society, what would be the equivalent

37:20

that you said, okay, in your

37:22

groups, you have, so conflict can

37:24

be, is often energizing and breaks

37:27

certain, certain stagnations and there will

37:29

be energy. We need to be

37:31

able to facilitate that, otherwise it

37:34

can just be another retromatization and

37:36

go back to start, you know.

37:39

Yeah, monopoly. Yeah, you end up

37:41

in a win-lose, right? So someone

37:43

gets to feel good and somebody

37:46

else feels really bad because they've

37:48

lost and that satisfies certain developmental

37:50

parts of us. to be able

37:53

to feel the release and both

37:55

and and the creative solution is

37:57

a different. And in my view,

38:00

much more graceful and elegant kind

38:02

of satisfaction as opposed to the

38:05

density of the win-lose. You know,

38:07

I've actually thought about doing a

38:09

podcast. I thought about calling it

38:12

beef, you know, because that's what

38:14

we call it in the States.

38:16

You know, they have beef and

38:19

like people could bring a conflict

38:21

in. And then we could model

38:23

helping them actually move through it

38:26

so that people could see it.

38:28

Most people don't have the experience

38:31

of seeing it. We're through it

38:33

very beautifully. All they see is

38:35

win-lose scenarios. And while that gives

38:38

energy, it also divides and it

38:40

leaves half in a very one-down

38:42

position, which is not a great...

38:45

I mean, we know very well

38:47

that leaving Germany in a one-down

38:49

position after the First World War

38:52

was literally what set up the

38:54

conditions for the Second World War.

38:57

That's what it did it. And

38:59

yet, on a collective level, we

39:01

know nothing about how to do

39:04

that. Oh, that's not true. I

39:06

mean, I think the democracies have

39:08

done a relatively good job of

39:11

that. It's just that the rise

39:13

at the far right now makes

39:15

it much harder, I guess. But

39:18

there's always, even with the Western

39:20

allies, there, you know, other people,

39:23

other cultures fill one down. Exactly.

39:25

So, yeah. And I think also

39:27

the... I typically believe we need

39:30

collective structures for this. Like I

39:32

think we need a collective, like

39:34

something, you know, there was a

39:37

time when hospitals didn't exist and

39:39

now they seem like so normal,

39:41

but it wasn't always normal. Like

39:44

they have invented or created and

39:46

then we saw it's great and

39:49

then it became normal. It became

39:51

a structure of our society. I

39:53

don't think we have a good

39:56

structure of dealing with these collective

39:58

fragmentations. this massive collective wounds this

40:00

one has created and I think

40:03

without that without dealing with the

40:05

legacy I think we can we

40:07

will see the conflict sometimes all

40:10

the time but I don't think

40:12

we will get to a good

40:15

way to upgrade that and and

40:17

talk about collective growing up like

40:19

the collective like adult development. I

40:22

think it needs some mechanism to

40:24

do. And that's why I loved

40:26

it when you mentioned the rituals

40:29

because I think rituals are ways.

40:31

If they are well designed, they

40:33

can do such a job. Yeah,

40:36

that's right. They can do it

40:38

through rituals. They can serve and

40:41

be kind of a role model

40:43

for collective growing up and maybe

40:45

also collective waking up. Anyway, I

40:48

mean meditation is often being practiced

40:50

in collectives. Well I noticed I

40:52

used to be the director of

40:55

the Office for Dispute Resolution in

40:57

our judiciary and what I experienced

40:59

then is that the public was

41:02

not very well educated about mediation

41:04

so I had to do a

41:07

lot of education of both the

41:09

lawyers, judges and the public. And

41:11

that there was still an impulse

41:14

often to feel like if you

41:16

if you litigate it or if

41:18

you brought it to court that

41:21

somehow you would just get this

41:23

clean wind. There's still this kind

41:25

of hanging on to, and I

41:28

think we promote that so much

41:30

in culture, you know, that you

41:33

can, U.S. culture is the worst

41:35

in this way. I mean, we're

41:37

always, we're in a win-lose structure

41:40

all the time and, you know,

41:42

stoking the fantasies that everybody can

41:44

be on top. So in a

41:47

way it takes more... takes

41:50

in a certain way a little

41:52

bit more courage to be willing

41:54

to say for example to mediate

41:57

because it doesn't promise you that

41:59

you're gonna That you're just gonna

42:02

win But the truth is, and

42:04

this is something that Voltaire said,

42:06

he said he was ruined in

42:09

court twice, 121, once when he

42:11

lost. You know, so it's somehow,

42:13

can we give people enough experience?

42:16

And like you're saying, create the

42:18

structures, perhaps, where they can actually

42:21

be supported in having a different

42:23

experience. And then, you know, then

42:25

people see that it's possible. And

42:28

it isn't, it doesn't come at

42:30

such a great cost to yourself

42:32

image. You know, even in our...

42:35

you know, the ordinary conflicts we

42:37

experience with one another on a

42:39

daily basis, we still have that

42:42

very old sense of threat and

42:44

that very old sense that something

42:47

about our self-identity is going to

42:49

be compromised if we somehow move

42:51

with more curiosity towards each other.

42:54

Yeah, and I think the features

42:56

look at evolution, how much fight

42:58

flight freeze mechanisms are ingrained in

43:01

our autonomous nervous system and we're

43:03

all looking through the nervous system

43:05

in one way or the other,

43:08

however transcendent we are, like. In

43:10

daily interactions, as you said before,

43:13

you can sit and meditate and

43:15

be very blissful and maybe peaceful,

43:17

but if somebody triggers you later

43:20

often, at least there is some

43:22

kind of coming out of that

43:24

state for many people, not maybe

43:27

for everybody, but you need to

43:29

be very anchored in that bigger

43:32

perspective, not to get sucked into

43:34

some of the styletics. And I

43:36

think that we... We need to

43:39

really rewrite and I think we

43:41

can rewrite those, you know, millions

43:43

of years of people being killed.

43:46

I mean, I think this, the

43:48

waking up is literally a way

43:50

to rewrite those strong imprints because

43:53

what is the nervous system and

43:55

what are genetics, like it's concentrated

43:58

history. And so like. like a

44:00

memory stick being passed on all

44:02

the time and the ends of

44:05

file as something. Yeah. Or changes

44:07

some files or destroys some files,

44:09

but I think we can literally

44:12

rewrite it and I think growing

44:14

up and waking up ways how

44:17

to rewrite those tendencies that seem

44:19

so imperative to some reactions that

44:21

we have. And this idea of

44:24

rewriting is really, really powerful. One

44:26

of the ways that we can

44:28

think about it is when we're,

44:31

imagine we have a meditative meditation

44:33

practice and we have access to

44:35

that experience. That experience helps us

44:38

be able to really look at

44:40

the experience of being triggered, to

44:43

feel it, to sense it, to

44:45

see what it does to our

44:47

cognition, to notice how we feel

44:50

gripped, you know, and then the

44:52

very fact of being able to

44:54

observe that creates new neural pathways

44:57

in the brain. We're literally evolving

44:59

the brain when we're practicing dealing

45:01

with the fact that we're triggered.

45:04

that old nervous system is on

45:06

fire. Just by observing it, we're

45:09

changing it. So I like that

45:11

moment of confidence when you said,

45:13

I think we can do this.

45:16

I do too. The only thing

45:18

I would add to, at least

45:20

in my experience, is this the

45:23

power of the observing or the

45:25

witnessing, like this consciousness that we

45:28

can rest in and observe this.

45:30

But what I have seen... In

45:32

the last 20 years, I think

45:35

that often, since the trigger is

45:37

a symptom of a deeper root,

45:39

I think the underlying trauma behind

45:42

the trigger, the trigger shows up

45:44

on the surface, but there's something

45:46

in the depth. I have seen

45:49

that when the better we get

45:51

in at integrating... those deeper roots

45:54

so that we first of all

45:56

change our relationship to the trigger

45:58

we have the consciousness that you

46:01

spoke about and then we have

46:03

the precision to often call this

46:05

to take the needle through the

46:08

trigger down and bring whatever is

46:10

in the depth of our unconscious

46:13

and integrate whatever the trigger is

46:15

a symptom of and that creates

46:17

like a wholeness in the fabric

46:20

and collectively and collectively and collectively.

46:22

And I think that creates a

46:24

liberation, like a win, win, win,

46:27

win, because you get the energy

46:29

back that you need it for

46:31

that you... To hold that in

46:34

place. To hold that, the fragmenting

46:36

force. And we look at societal

46:39

fragmentation, but actually we need to

46:41

look at what is the fragmenting

46:43

force that we don't see that

46:46

creates polarization. And once you see

46:48

this, then it becomes vertical development.

46:50

And that's why I think when

46:53

you speak about... growing up, I

46:55

think the integration of trauma means

46:57

that the past becomes presence. And

47:00

when it when it surfaces, Thomas,

47:02

does it surface in the form

47:05

of, I mean, because usually you're

47:07

getting often just a sensation, when

47:09

you talk about the needle going

47:12

down, does it, does the surfacing

47:14

happen in the form of a

47:16

memory, or how does one recognize

47:19

if one has access that deeper?

47:21

deeper memory, whatever that happens to

47:24

be. Yeah, and when we do

47:26

this work, we see when the

47:28

moment you go beyond the symptoms,

47:31

because the symptoms show up as

47:33

something in your body, something emotional,

47:35

stress, like all kinds of symptoms,

47:38

trigger symptoms, or distance, or indifferent

47:40

withdrawal, or all kinds of things,

47:42

and you see that the original

47:45

space has been left, you have

47:47

two instead of an interdependent hole,

47:50

and so on. And then... Whenever

47:52

we go beyond when we first

47:54

befriend the trigger is... something that

47:57

we want to be with and

47:59

not we want to get rid

48:01

of, then if you can go

48:04

deeper, then when you touch the

48:06

original hurt that created this fragmentation,

48:08

you see immediately like there's a

48:11

melting of the frightening power. Then

48:13

there are two movements. One is

48:16

up the spine, like energy comes

48:18

up and and liberate something and

48:20

becomes more creative and relational relational.

48:23

there's an expansion of the social

48:25

engagement system and there's a reunification

48:27

in the relational space and there

48:30

is a downward movement that opens

48:32

up the body and the base

48:35

and grounds thing. So when we

48:37

say re-embodyment, the trauma is a

48:39

disembodyment and the integration is a

48:42

re-embodyment and then we naturally inhabit

48:44

the body in the place where

48:46

it was shut down again more

48:49

and that's amazing. So it's a

48:51

win-win-win because the energy you needed

48:53

to shut it down is melting.

48:56

Also the developmental energy that was

48:58

frozen is liberated so can make

49:01

it into its vertical adulthood and

49:03

you feel more grounded and more

49:05

relational. That is a three-way. Down

49:08

up and across. Yeah, exactly. It's

49:10

a win. You're more grounded, you're

49:12

more relaxed, your nervous system is

49:15

more regulated, you're more regulated, you're

49:17

more regulated, you're more regulated, you're

49:20

more regulated, you're more regulated, I

49:22

think that that is a great

49:24

way to drive to put more

49:27

fuel into the growing up. Then

49:29

it's lovely to see you again

49:31

first of all and I'm enjoying

49:34

this. I of course I have

49:36

so many more questions about how

49:38

you're doing and what's happening in

49:41

your life but for another time

49:43

anything for our listeners that you

49:46

think would be great that we

49:48

didn't touch on or anything that

49:50

you... Yeah, I think

49:52

I think the the the vivid

49:54

moment for me in our conversation

49:57

I mean I loved all of

49:59

it because I always am learning

50:01

you and I talk, but that

50:03

moment where you said, I think

50:05

we can do this, is really

50:07

inspiring. And so I just want

50:10

to underscore to our listeners to

50:12

really have confidence in your ability

50:14

both to wake up and grow

50:16

up. And that, you know, you

50:18

started out with the question of

50:20

why should we bother? Because it's

50:22

the most important and powerful thing

50:25

we have. And the biggest threat

50:27

to who we are is really

50:29

conflict. with one another. It's not

50:31

climate, you know, I don't know

50:33

about AI, I'll stay out of

50:35

that. It really, and our greatest

50:37

power is the fact that we

50:40

can learn these skills and we

50:42

can grow and that cohesion and

50:44

embodiment that you described is our

50:46

natural way of being. And so

50:48

to just be able to be

50:50

encouraged that your practice is worth

50:52

your time. Absolutely. Thanks

50:57

for listening to Point a Relation

50:59

with Thomas Hooble. Stay connected and

51:01

get updates about new episodes by

51:03

visiting our website. Point a Relation

51:05

Podcast.com and by subscribing to the

51:08

Thomas Hooble YouTube channel. If you

51:10

enjoyed this video, please like it

51:12

and share about us with your

51:14

community on social media. Thank you.

51:16

We appreciate your support.