0:01

the rhythm with Earth. So we

0:03

know the elements of Earth

0:06

are communicable. They have communication

0:08

always. There's nothing that needs

0:10

to be proven because we're

0:12

not here to solve the

0:14

mystery. We're here to accept

0:16

it. Welcome to Point of

0:18

Relation with Thomas Hubel, a

0:21

podcast that illuminates the path

0:23

to collective healing at the

0:25

intersection of science and mysticism.

0:27

This is the point of

0:29

relation. Today's

0:37

episode was previously recorded for

0:39

an online event with Thomas.

0:42

Although it took place at

0:44

an earlier date, the insights

0:46

and discussion remain relevant. Tiogasine

0:48

Ghost Horse is an educator,

0:50

musician, and international speaker on

0:53

peace. He is a member

0:55

of the Cheyenne River Lakota

0:57

Nation of South Dakota and

0:59

has a long history with

1:01

indigenous activism and advocacy. Tiyokasine

1:03

is the founder, host, and

1:06

executive producer of First Voices

1:08

Radio. In 2016, he received

1:10

a nomination for the Nobel

1:12

Peace Prize and is the

1:15

recipient of numerous other awards

1:17

and honors for the arts,

1:19

music, and community work. Tiyokasine

1:22

is a master musician of

1:24

the Lakota Cedar Flute where

1:26

stories and cultural knowledge are

1:28

conveyed through music. This episode

1:31

begins with a one-minute introduction

1:33

by Tiyakasin in his native

1:35

Lakota language. We hope you

1:37

enjoy the opportunity to briefly

1:40

engage with a sacred language

1:42

you may not otherwise encounter.

1:45

A good way to begin is,

1:47

um, Amity Takui. On Betty Washtello,

1:50

Tanya, Wachianke, Chante,

1:52

Washtea, Napetu, Pechesa,

1:55

Pechesa, Pechesa, Wachteo.

1:58

I'm back to Utah. not

2:00

only a wokan, or yatikin,

2:03

or nakiktapo, am betu, kele,

2:05

washinaw-uncha, hey, gee, we chashahay,

2:07

mokai-loh. Ho, whakantakana, makhoa, am

2:10

betu, le, eh, wa-wozio, blockingktilo.

2:12

A good deal of art,

2:14

I am a pleasure, I

2:16

am a pleasure, I am

2:19

a pleasure, I walk up

2:21

at the home, I am

2:23

a hot and hot and

2:26

hot in my home, I

2:28

hope to, yeah. Let me

2:30

talk to you, I have

2:32

a gap, keep up, do

2:35

I want to go on

2:37

a new, I am a

2:39

clapik, and I can't honor

2:42

a nipicta, you know, a

2:44

way. Le Unki Piki, he

2:46

was still o'er, o'er-de-yasi, basically

2:48

saying that the grandfathers are

2:51

looking this way, the old

2:53

ones are looking this way,

2:55

and as an individual, without

2:58

being an individual, I'm asking

3:00

to be looked at in

3:02

a good and humble way,

3:04

that the people will live

3:07

and that the grandfathers are

3:09

always taking care of us.

3:11

grandmothers as well. I'm also

3:14

saying greetings and good day

3:16

and welcome my relatives. I

3:18

shake your hands with a

3:21

good heart and it's good

3:23

for all of us to

3:25

be here and that necessarily

3:27

does not just humans. We

3:30

look to the forever ones

3:32

who keep we're here first

3:34

and let's acknowledge that relationship

3:37

with all of that, all

3:39

of those and life-giving force

3:41

of the sun, the moon

3:43

and the moon and the

3:46

and it's timely wake up.

3:48

Today will be a good

3:50

day and I'm here in

3:53

the humble way. not representing

3:55

myself. I'm a common man,

3:57

an ordinary man of earth,

3:59

and I'd like to bring

4:02

that to honor you in

4:04

this circle of life with

4:06

me, and I am grateful

4:09

for this opportunity to acknowledge

4:11

you, Thomas, and all the

4:13

peoples that are joining in

4:15

here in us, including the

4:18

ones we don't see. We'll

4:20

look at this in a

4:22

very non anthropocentric way, because

4:25

if we only talk about

4:27

humans, we are leaving out

4:29

the rest of life. that

4:31

is also listening. But thank

4:34

you. That's so beautiful. So

4:36

very welcome from my side.

4:38

It touches me and it

4:41

touches me to hear your

4:43

language and it creates like

4:45

a deep resonance and it

4:47

brought me very close to

4:50

you to listen to you.

4:52

So thank you and thank

4:54

you for joining us here.

4:57

And so I think you

4:59

said already so many things

5:01

that are that are important.

5:04

First of all, that we

5:06

have, especially in the Western

5:08

worldview, like a white worldview,

5:10

like a human-centric worldview, versus

5:13

what you just opened up

5:15

is a much, much bigger

5:17

frame. And maybe you want

5:20

to speak a little bit

5:22

to that wider frame. what

5:24

we see what we don't

5:26

see how we open ourselves

5:29

up to also what we

5:31

don't see and to include

5:33

more of the ecosystemic part

5:36

of ourselves and and so

5:38

to let's start there for

5:40

a moment and then and

5:42

then go deeper from there.

5:45

Okay. I want to say

5:47

that acknowledging our interrelated, this

5:49

is mitakoyoyasi, and the Lakota

5:52

language. So the word that

5:54

we have for prayer, which

5:56

is really not the word

5:58

for prayer. as we'll check

6:01

yet, which means acknowledging a

6:03

relationship to everything. So we

6:05

are acknowledging a relationship,

6:08

not connectivity, acknowledging

6:10

a relationship you're involved in living

6:12

with. And so we want to

6:15

thank the mineral nations and the

6:17

plantan nations and the animal nations,

6:19

the human nations, the spirit nations,

6:22

the four winds and the change

6:24

in growth in the circle of

6:26

life and one is not more

6:29

important than the other and one

6:31

is a one nation is evolving

6:33

from the other yet we're all

6:36

dependent on upon each other and

6:38

as a tree grows two ways

6:40

up and below. is that

6:42

we all are becoming this

6:44

mystery. So I'd like to say

6:47

that we aren't part

6:49

of Earth. We're not, we aren't,

6:51

we aren't, people say

6:53

we are Earth or we are part

6:55

of Earth, but that's too

6:58

subjective for me to

7:00

hear that or objectified.

7:02

So we become things

7:05

part of something. So

7:07

if I say we are. coming into

7:09

this dimension with this

7:12

energy, we're coming here to

7:14

be formed by new age. This

7:16

is this is the way, you know,

7:18

it's been before people came

7:20

to the Western Hemisphere.

7:23

So we have to reinterpret

7:25

this into English. So if

7:28

we come into this dimension

7:30

with this energy, we're coming

7:33

here to be formed by

7:35

this form of human.

7:37

What happens is that we're

7:39

learning how to walk, talk,

7:41

eat, see, smell, hear, feel,

7:44

just the mechanics of just

7:46

living here and trying

7:48

to find the gifts of

7:51

putting that all together,

7:53

that these are what babies

7:55

do. And so we are

7:57

becoming earth. We're becoming

7:59

earth. not, we are, we

8:01

are not, we are not,

8:04

we are not part of

8:06

Earth. We're becoming in a

8:08

constant, continuous way. And then

8:10

as we are in a

8:12

middle, growing as we are,

8:14

we're still doing the same

8:17

thing as babies. We are

8:19

still becoming Earth. We're eating,

8:21

drinking, being and laughing and

8:23

doing all those things babies

8:25

do. And then we're at

8:27

the end of the spectrum,

8:30

we're doing the same thing,

8:32

we are becoming Earth. and

8:34

people call it dying or

8:36

becoming earth. But you see

8:38

on both ends of the

8:40

spectrum is, excuse me, that

8:43

when babies come in, they

8:45

are, they learn to walk

8:47

and talk and they see

8:49

friends, special friends, make belief

8:51

friends, and everybody goes through

8:53

that to a certain age,

8:56

then they tell them about

8:58

reality, right? And then you

9:00

get to the other side

9:02

of the spectrum. And the

9:04

old people are seeing friends

9:06

that they experienced in life,

9:09

they're seeing their ancestors. So

9:11

this is an indigenous way

9:13

of being without inducing medicine

9:15

to stop that transition into

9:17

the next, into the next

9:19

dimension. So you're, you're greeting

9:22

your future because your ancestors

9:24

have gone into the future.

9:26

So this is who we

9:28

are. This is why in

9:30

a lot of indigenous peoples,

9:32

we respect the elders. because

9:35

we know that they are

9:37

in the future. And if

9:39

we are looking to the

9:41

future, then we understand that

9:43

very well, viscerally, with the

9:45

full spectrum body, basically it's

9:48

our marrow. When we are

9:50

transitioning on the other end

9:52

of the spectrum from the

9:54

childhood, the baby, the infant,

9:56

infant child to the adult

9:58

to the older adulthood, and

10:01

then we're ready to move

10:03

on to the next dimension.

10:05

through either Alzheimer's or dementia,

10:07

the people. traditionally involved naturally

10:09

are allowing this to happen

10:11

that the elders are seeing

10:14

and talking and conversing with

10:16

those who have already gone

10:18

into the future their ancestors

10:20

our ancestors so that the

10:22

transition is more normal but

10:24

in the Western society you're

10:27

given psychoactive drugs to prevent

10:29

that because it's not normal

10:31

for the society because that's

10:33

viewed as diseased. So there's

10:35

a difference in how we

10:37

view natural as to compare

10:40

to civilized human being, how

10:42

we work with the mechanics

10:44

of how a person gets

10:46

old and they are non-productive.

10:48

But we constantly are in

10:50

continuum with the elders who

10:53

have gone into the future

10:55

and that's why we treat

10:57

the elders. as much as

10:59

we can in an honorable

11:01

way here, because that's basically

11:03

our library, our treasure of

11:06

how we would like to

11:08

go. They've set the example,

11:10

just as the earth has

11:12

set the example, because as

11:14

you know, they are our

11:16

oldest ancestors, and we must

11:19

treat those older ancestors as

11:21

our elders, which is earth.

11:23

beautiful lovely lovely lovely and

11:25

I and I loved us

11:27

so what you said before

11:29

is that we are not

11:32

just on the planet like

11:34

that there's this kind of

11:36

mechanistic worldview that there's a

11:38

human being on the planet

11:40

but it's a it's a

11:42

whole whole system and this

11:45

was beautiful and maybe staying

11:47

a little bit with the

11:49

elders like what's your or

11:51

what our practices through which

11:53

we can be in relationship

11:56

and in maybe in communication

11:58

with the elders and the

12:00

ones that before us? Maybe

12:02

there are specific practices or

12:04

ways how to how to

12:06

establish that kind of

12:09

inner connection or or

12:11

relationship. Well, I'm not a

12:13

shaman or a fortune teller

12:15

or a spiritual guru or

12:18

any of these things, Thomas,

12:20

but I do realize they're

12:23

they're inherently in all of

12:25

us, our DNA is of

12:28

those same elders. So to

12:30

deeply see within when you

12:32

close your eyes as you

12:34

know, it's a vaster universe

12:36

than when you open your

12:38

eyes. So when I say ancestors,

12:41

I can actually see ancestors

12:43

in the trees in the

12:45

rocks and the context

12:48

of communication is the

12:50

older language you have

12:52

with Earth rather than

12:54

technology. you're able to

12:57

understand the intuitive values of

12:59

what the earth is saying

13:02

rather than instinctual values

13:04

of what technology

13:06

brings to you as survivorship.

13:09

One is living, one

13:11

is surviving. So we

13:13

develop a sort of this

13:15

just panic driven language

13:18

to to treat trauma. But

13:21

in the world of the

13:23

worldview of indigenous folks, and

13:25

I don't speak for all,

13:27

is my experience is

13:30

that the peace is within the

13:32

earth, and that peace has

13:34

always been changing, always, and

13:36

we need to be, and we

13:39

are in the rhythm with earth.

13:41

So we know the elements

13:43

of earth are communicable.

13:45

They have communication always. There's

13:47

nothing that needs to be

13:50

proven because we're not here

13:52

to solve the mystery. We're here

13:54

to accept it. And the difference is between

13:56

how we view is to solve the

13:59

mystery in one. and that's

14:01

driving people crazy because there

14:03

never will be an answer

14:05

and science and religion and

14:08

politics and whatnot try to

14:10

do that where many indigenous

14:12

peoples or the indigenative all

14:14

of us indigenate and all

14:17

of us understand that the

14:19

intuition intuitive value is actually

14:21

the communication the means of

14:23

communication of intelligence of intelligence

14:26

and that It's what all

14:28

the other's non-ethoacentric beings are.

14:30

They have this value of

14:33

being able to speak to

14:35

us through those ancestors. And

14:37

so the ancestors that we

14:39

described, if you say that

14:42

Native Americans, they do everything

14:44

in circles. That's kind of

14:46

true, but yet it's a

14:48

colonial view, because a circle

14:51

means revolution. around and around.

14:53

But if you understand even

14:55

deeper, this value of what

14:57

a spiral is, because we

15:00

could see we clinch our

15:02

fist and we have a

15:04

spiral. We know the spiral

15:07

on top of our head,

15:09

our fingernails or our fingertips,

15:11

everything seems to be a

15:13

spiral. And so there is

15:16

no beginning and no ending

15:18

in that so-called time concept.

15:20

There is no beginning and

15:22

ending. There is no beginning

15:25

and ending. So we are

15:27

on that and through a

15:29

friend of mine who said

15:32

that we are on that

15:34

continuum of a spiral and

15:36

we're walking into the future

15:38

backwards. And once we walk

15:41

into the future backwards, we

15:43

understand that these ancestors, our

15:45

ancestors, are gone into the

15:47

future first and we trust

15:50

that. And so we have

15:52

trust in the future first.

15:54

not anxiety or angst that

15:56

things are going to turn.

15:59

not bad or good, but

16:01

because you can see where you've

16:03

been when you're walking backwards

16:05

into the future. So the ancestors

16:08

are was always holding you.

16:10

And the ancestors in this case,

16:12

to me, is the earth, earth holds you,

16:14

gives you, cares for you every

16:16

second of your life without

16:19

question, always giving, never sharing,

16:21

always giving, always giving, always

16:24

giving to all life, not just

16:26

human beings, not just

16:28

human beings, You see, and I

16:30

think that that is what we

16:33

need to change the thinking

16:35

that to take the human out

16:37

of the center, because

16:39

from what I'm hearing, if

16:41

we put the human in

16:44

the center, it's all indicating

16:46

that we are lacking something

16:48

and we're looking to extract

16:51

those ancestors that

16:53

have power and that because

16:56

we're missing that same

16:58

recognition. Beautiful, beautiful. And

17:00

you said something very

17:03

lovely, many things, but

17:05

one thing that stayed with

17:07

me, especially was we are

17:09

not here to solve the

17:12

mystery, but to accept it.

17:14

What a beautiful sentence. Wow,

17:16

it's lovely. I love that.

17:19

so much so much resonates

17:21

with me that's lovely like

17:23

how we put ourselves on

17:25

top of the mystery by

17:28

by trying to solve it

17:30

versus to bow down to

17:32

the mystery and let us

17:34

be taught by it this

17:36

is very lovely so what

17:39

what's this time for you

17:41

what what are the times

17:43

that we are in it seems

17:45

like there is a lot of

17:48

Stress showing up, there's a

17:50

lot of change, there's a lot

17:52

of things that are scary for

17:55

many people, I think right now,

17:57

including climate change and many other...

18:00

crisis that are happening. So

18:02

how do you look at

18:04

this time? Like, well, how

18:06

does this? And also, maybe

18:08

what's the prophecy for this

18:10

time? If there is just

18:12

anything you want to say?

18:15

I want to just prepare

18:17

people to say the prophecies

18:19

that I've been told are

18:21

very hard and that we

18:23

need to prepare, but I'll

18:25

get to that a little

18:28

later here. So in a

18:30

lot of indigenous circles, there

18:32

is no such concept for

18:34

time. It's impossible to apply

18:36

that to the mystery. But

18:38

to be in the moment,

18:41

as we say, is Hetchah,

18:43

to be here, always here,

18:45

and to be always awake,

18:47

I thought, or I mentioned

18:49

it when I said that,

18:51

is to wake up. And

18:54

that means to know that

18:56

every minute that every moment

18:58

that you are in is

19:00

innocent. there will never be

19:02

a repeat in that innocence

19:04

doesn't have to do with

19:07

guilt or anything like this.

19:09

So what I see the

19:11

angst in people's is because

19:13

they don't trust the future.

19:15

And so if we are

19:17

not present, where are we?

19:20

We are not here between you

19:23

and I or who goes into

19:25

the future and who goes into

19:27

the past. So we are never

19:30

here. We're always thinking about being

19:32

a better human being, a better

19:35

planet, a better civilization, something better.

19:37

But we don't want to recognize

19:39

why we are here, who

19:41

we are here. And so through

19:44

this is that what I do

19:46

is to be in the present

19:49

of. This great action, this great

19:51

being called Earth, is that she's

19:53

always consciously in the present. She

19:56

is not in the future or

19:58

the past. She is here. And

20:01

if you're in natural rhythm

20:03

with Earth, she teaches you,

20:05

she shows you how

20:07

to be present consciously,

20:09

intuitively, and

20:12

your thinking comes the

20:14

same way that your

20:17

language no longer becomes

20:19

denatured, but you speak more

20:21

of Earth first, because every

20:24

part of you comes from

20:26

Earth and is Earth in that

20:29

way. So we're speaking

20:31

a denatured language. That

20:33

means we eventually begin

20:36

to speak a biophobic

20:38

language. So when we speak

20:40

a biophobic language, we're only

20:43

speaking about the human frailties

20:45

of how much we miss and

20:47

how much I need to heal.

20:49

And so these words, I, me,

20:51

my, mine, and ours are prevalent

20:53

in the language because

20:55

we're centered on ourselves

20:57

as human beings. But

20:59

again, Blackheld from the

21:02

Lakota talks about that the

21:04

center of the universe

21:06

is everywhere. It's not one

21:09

place or the other. And I

21:11

think when you feel that, you

21:13

know that there is really no

21:15

language for that. And

21:17

I often talk about the

21:20

indigeneity in all of us.

21:22

And I would say lately a lot

21:24

of these prophecies. And I

21:26

was just looking at some.

21:29

some prophecies the other day, especially with

21:31

the book of the Hopi, others that

21:33

I've heard through the times I've grown

21:35

up and heard in later ones. These

21:37

generations, these times that we cannot date, but

21:39

in this society, we tend to date

21:42

the generations of generation X and

21:44

Y and Z, the Joneses generation, the boom,

21:46

the baby boom, the baby boom, the baby

21:48

boom, the baby boom, the baby boom, the

21:50

baby boom, the baby boom, the baby boom,

21:53

the baby boom, the baby boom, the baby

21:55

boom, the baby boom, the baby boom, the

21:57

baby boom, the baby boom, generation and

21:59

so So we divide it,

22:01

we're dividing the people's already

22:04

and we classify them. But

22:06

in, in from what I

22:09

know in the Lakota way,

22:11

every generation is the seventh

22:14

generation, doesn't begin here and

22:16

here, it's a continuum. So

22:18

if you're in the present

22:21

seventh generation, you're, you always

22:23

understand that what you do

22:26

in the seven generation affects

22:28

generations behind and ahead. We're,

22:31

we're present with intuition. And

22:33

intuition is the consciousness of

22:35

Earth, the communicated value that

22:38

we are missing is intuition.

22:40

Because before any thought processes

22:43

of humans were here, it's

22:45

intuition. In other words, if

22:48

you skip ahead, there is

22:50

no such thing as artificial

22:53

intuition. There is artificial intelligence,

22:55

but artificial intuition. It can't

22:57

ever exist because it's always

23:00

intuition. It was here before

23:02

we work. It can't be

23:05

packaged. It can't be put

23:07

into any spiritual value. It

23:10

cannot be put into religion,

23:12

science, or even governments. It

23:14

can't be. Trees communicate through

23:17

intuition, not artificial intelligence or

23:19

intelligence, because that communicate. How

23:22

much of this are we

23:24

missing by not being present

23:27

with them or into the

23:29

future because we've been away

23:31

from the natural rhythms of

23:34

earth? So when you speak

23:36

of intuition you also speak

23:39

about the synchronization or an

23:41

alignment with the natural rhythm

23:44

of earth? Is that what

23:46

you just said? Yes. And

23:48

there's many things that we

23:51

do that are... I would

23:53

for myself, I would do.

23:56

There's these ceremonies. These ceremonies

23:58

don't require smoking. feathers and

24:01

you know all the things that we

24:03

are a stereotype to do

24:05

as native people. It's

24:07

a simple recognition, like

24:10

I said before, it's more

24:12

like, like acknowledging

24:14

a relationship, acknowledging

24:16

a relationship that

24:18

you go outside and

24:20

you go to nature, but it's

24:23

not that, that You notice

24:25

nature, you acknowledge nature, but

24:27

we forget because we're so

24:30

human centered, we forget

24:32

that nature is already acknowledging

24:34

us. Nature, those trees know

24:36

we're there already, like a

24:38

horse knows we're there already scanning

24:40

us, knowing us, but we don't

24:43

have that because we're, it's all

24:45

about us, we're supreme beings, we're

24:47

the only ones who can think,

24:50

we're the only ones who can

24:52

build a bomb. You know, but

24:54

these other beings are not doing

24:57

that. So I think that

24:59

the earth and the world as

25:01

it is is changing over. See,

25:03

we are also living out

25:05

our prophecies that we need

25:07

to change inevitably, but we

25:10

need to let go of

25:12

this deteriorating, dimension

25:15

is deteriorating and

25:17

this other world is here

25:19

in the prophecies of the

25:21

Hopi, the fifth world. many

25:24

native people are already in

25:26

the fifth world. And the thinking,

25:28

the feeling is there. So the

25:30

language that we are using today,

25:33

Thomas, has to change and go

25:35

back to the, not go back,

25:37

but understand the etymology

25:40

of culture, the etymology of

25:42

this language we're using to

25:44

make it less scientific,

25:46

less academic and more

25:48

simple so that even. Even

25:51

other human beings who

25:53

can't afford academia can

25:55

understand what you're talking

25:57

about. We all get triggered at

25:59

times. all want to

26:01

like improve maybe our capacity

26:04

of our nervous system to

26:06

stay related to include triggers

26:08

to learn how to transform

26:11

triggers into into movements to

26:13

be more resourced and so

26:15

we we designed the seven-day

26:18

path how two different levels

26:20

of practices to activate different

26:22

parts of ourselves to to

26:25

learn that to go through

26:27

a step-by-step process and harvest

26:29

step-by-step different levels of resources

26:32

that we can have to

26:34

train that function of regulation,

26:36

to look at where am

26:39

I dysregulated, where do I,

26:41

where can I tap into

26:43

parts of myself that can

26:46

hold those dysregulated parts more

26:48

and transform them and learn

26:50

from them, not just to

26:53

try to get rid of

26:55

it or not have any

26:57

challenges, but to... to develop

27:00

more relational capacity to the

27:02

events that are happening in

27:04

our life and that gives

27:07

us more freedom that gives

27:09

us more freedom to become

27:12

more fluid within the beautiful

27:14

moments of our life but

27:16

also within the challenging moments

27:19

of our life and that

27:21

increases our inner freedom and

27:23

that helps us to choose

27:26

new possibilities to do certain

27:28

things differently or simply to

27:30

experience more Regulation, more groundedness

27:33

to sleep better, to recharge

27:35

your battery better, to meditate

27:37

differently. So there are many

27:40

many benefits that of course

27:42

come with the deeper sense

27:44

of regulation. And if you

27:47

want to be part of

27:49

our reset and you want

27:51

to stick with us throughout

27:54

the seven days, so please,

27:56

this is going to be

27:58

a great journey and please

28:01

enjoy the journey. you will

28:03

soon get access to to

28:05

what we have designed for

28:08

you to go through this

28:10

deeper practice. So I wish

28:12

you a beautiful day and

28:15

I wish you many blessings

28:17

for your life. Visit the

28:20

link in our show notes

28:22

or go to Mystic Cafe

28:24

Online.com to join our global

28:27

membership community, the Mystic Cafe,

28:29

and participate in nourishing your

28:31

nervous system, a seven-day reset.

28:34

The seven day path of

28:36

practices will begin with a

28:38

live event with Thomas on

28:41

February 16th. We hope to

28:43

see you there. Wow. So

28:45

when you talk about the

28:48

fifth world, can you say

28:50

a few more sentences about

28:52

the fifth world? What

28:57

I'm told, the fifth world

28:59

has no nouns. It's one

29:02

of energy, one of a

29:04

language that cannot be interpreted.

29:07

And in this world that

29:09

you and I are talking

29:12

about, the modernity is speaking

29:14

primarily out of nouns, subjective

29:16

and objectifying domination. of the

29:19

earth. Who has not been

29:21

dominating the earth is, we

29:24

can say, human beings, but

29:26

indigenous peoples aren't dominating the

29:29

earth or living with the

29:31

earth are still attempting to

29:34

do that, while this domination

29:36

of a supreme being telling

29:39

us how to instructing us

29:41

how to live here. So

29:43

our questions are not how

29:46

to do something instructively. It's

29:48

understanding that we don't know

29:51

anything until experience it. Then

29:53

we can state out of,

29:56

this is our experience, this

29:58

is our story. So the

30:01

story goes that if we

30:03

are using already a verb-based

30:06

language as indigenous peoples do,

30:08

that's the transition not to

30:11

transformation, the transmitting, the transition

30:13

into that world that we

30:15

talk about. So the stagnation

30:18

is... that the top, the

30:20

cream of the crop in

30:23

this society in the Western

30:25

way of thinking is quantum

30:28

physics. Physics is stagnated with

30:30

nouns, so it can't go

30:33

anywhere. But in the other

30:35

languages that are, have quantum

30:38

physics encoded in these indigenous

30:40

languages are verb-based, and they

30:42

are moving constantly, and we're

30:45

describing energy. and the motion

30:47

of the energy. And you

30:50

could do that. Anyone could

30:52

do that today if we

30:55

just slow down and understand

30:57

that the language that we

31:00

are using now, the language

31:02

of non-presence or bio-presentphobia, present

31:05

phobic language, biophobic language. We're

31:07

using these languages to not

31:09

be here. And all it

31:12

is as simple, be here

31:14

and understand this moment. Because

31:17

maybe we don't like who

31:19

we are. So the prophecy

31:22

that I talk about are,

31:24

you can say they're written.

31:27

What if they were not

31:29

written? As the Western mind

31:32

tends to think that has

31:34

to have proof. Where the

31:37

native people in sustainable language

31:39

and sustainable living, not something

31:41

new. that we don't even

31:44

have the worth for sustainable

31:46

because you're living them not

31:49

practicing living not practicing meditation

31:51

not practice yoga? We're not,

31:54

how could one practice living

31:56

when you were living, right?

31:59

So we're not taking time

32:01

sequences out to practice something

32:04

that we should be living.

32:06

So it's a different way

32:08

of being. And I always

32:11

think about, you know, is

32:13

there room for native people

32:16

in this language that we're

32:18

talking to? in English, is

32:21

there has there been room

32:23

for native people's ideas? If

32:26

we're speaking dimensional languages into

32:28

a binary language, the realistic

32:31

language of right and wrong,

32:33

when in the old Lakota,

32:35

there were no opposites, there

32:38

were no such thing as

32:40

opposites, but we tend to

32:43

work in it because it

32:45

works in the society, right

32:48

and wrong, good and evil,

32:50

up and down, supreme, inferior,

32:53

a cause and effect, beginning

32:55

and ending. So these are

32:58

all opposites. But in more

33:00

natural settings, in languages that

33:03

speak no opposites, that's hard

33:05

to put into a container

33:07

so that the West can

33:10

practice it. Yeah. to the

33:12

liquefication of language or the

33:15

crystallization of language. What I

33:17

hear you say is also

33:20

when I, because I work

33:22

a lot or I do

33:25

work a lot on trauma

33:27

and collective trauma, it feels

33:30

to me like that part

33:32

of the world's frozen and

33:34

then we look at the

33:37

world as if we were

33:39

separate from it and then

33:42

when we liquefy it and

33:44

then we are much more

33:47

in flow with things. So

33:49

then. what I often call

33:52

the large language model that

33:54

we are sourcing our language

33:57

from already prevents a lot

33:59

of things that we don't

34:02

even know that we are

34:04

preventing them. And so when

34:06

I listen to you it,

34:09

because in a way, when

34:11

we look at the inner

34:14

process of either frozen life

34:16

or liquefied fluid life like

34:19

energy and flow, then naturally

34:21

I believe we start to.

34:24

use again more verbs and

34:26

less nouns because it's not

34:29

a contraction because they can

34:31

or like a tension in

34:33

my body it's actually tightening

34:36

up it's not or it's

34:38

not numbness but it's numbing

34:41

and so a lot of

34:43

a lot of the the

34:46

externalized nouns actually become again

34:48

processes and so when I

34:51

listen to you this feels

34:53

to me very It resonates

34:56

in me as flow and

34:58

as movement. You're constantly participating

35:00

in the movement. That's beautiful.

35:03

And so what do you

35:05

think or what do you

35:08

feel into it are the

35:10

qualities that we need at

35:13

the moment as... living in

35:15

this time or dealing with

35:18

the current situation of the

35:20

world. How, how are we

35:23

more of service? What's, what's

35:25

helpful? How do we unify

35:28

or, you know, or at

35:30

least become aware of the

35:32

separation that we created this

35:35

dualistic separation from the world?

35:37

and then objectifying the world

35:40

and seeing it as a

35:42

resource we can extract. Maybe

35:45

you can speak a little

35:47

bit to this whole. Yes,

35:50

let me begin with that.

35:52

In our language, there is

35:55

no concept a word for

35:57

domination. That our language is

35:59

relational. Not connective, not connecting,

36:03

but I hear a lot of

36:05

that. But because we don't

36:07

want to be in relationship

36:09

with Earth, because we own Earth

36:11

and we're on top of Earth, we

36:14

dominate Earth. So if we

36:16

take the domination away,

36:18

what does that indicate?

36:20

Lack of control. There is

36:22

no authority, but in the

36:25

Western world, it takes 12

36:27

years. said by John Gato, who

36:29

won the award, a teacher of

36:31

the year in New York State

36:33

saying on his retirement, he

36:36

said, paraphrasing him, he said,

36:38

it takes 12 years to learn how

36:41

to become reflexive

36:43

to authority. And so

36:45

you're looking at the one God,

36:47

the mayor, the doctor, the lawyer,

36:49

those who are in authority. But

36:51

if you move domination

36:53

from that, who are they, who are

36:56

they from that who are they.

36:58

And so this, this,

37:00

this, this, this, wow,

37:02

that would be, if

37:04

I were a Westerner,

37:07

that would be

37:09

hard to understand.

37:11

There is things

37:13

that we have

37:16

to leave behind

37:18

in order to

37:20

keep moving not

37:22

into future

37:25

progressively. But something

37:27

that's maintaining living,

37:30

who's maintaining living

37:32

but Earth? And to take an

37:34

answer and say here, here you

37:37

go, Western people, from

37:39

the indigenous peoples,

37:41

here's your answers. You

37:43

know, we can do that because

37:45

the knowledge is in the

37:48

common sense is sourced based,

37:50

not resourced. So

37:53

in a good way, this reality,

37:55

using reality, is basically waiting

37:57

for the package of B.

38:00

So we speak in savorship

38:02

language instead of, I would

38:05

see this is how I

38:07

speak because I've really

38:09

simplified my language and

38:11

it's almost too direct

38:13

sometimes for people is I

38:15

was told there is no hope

38:18

because without hope you have to

38:20

do what's required. We don't

38:22

speak a survivor language, we

38:25

speak a living language.

38:27

We're not afraid of not

38:29

having because we're grateful

38:31

what we do have. I think

38:34

that by the language of

38:36

being present, if

38:38

you're present, you're not

38:41

afraid of scarcity. You're

38:43

not afraid of not owning.

38:45

You're not afraid of

38:47

not dominating because there's no

38:50

such thing. And to have

38:52

these ideas of domination. say

38:55

that you as indigenous people's

38:57

need to save us is

39:00

kind of absurd because

39:02

we are allowing Mother Earth to

39:04

save us. That we know that we

39:06

can't save Mother Earth because we

39:08

don't own Mother Earth. We

39:10

can't prescribe, subscribe to Mother

39:12

Earth saying here's what you

39:15

need in order to save

39:17

us. So it's more like

39:19

if you're in balance in

39:21

your living with Earth, you'll

39:23

already be in the medicine.

39:25

in the movement and motion

39:27

of earth. So if you're

39:29

in a motion with it,

39:32

you're not afraid of not having

39:34

in the Olakota language,

39:37

there's no word for rich

39:39

or poor. See, those are

39:41

the very dichotomy opposites.

39:43

So if you don't have words

39:46

for poor or rich, then what

39:48

is there? Because the poor

39:50

rich are based on ego. you

39:53

say economics with

39:55

egonomics. So when we

39:57

say that then. There

40:00

must be a good giving

40:02

as Earth gives only gives

40:05

and the generous cultures of

40:07

the world are always giving

40:09

and without expecting in exchange.

40:12

So I think that's how

40:14

Earth lives she gives and

40:16

gives and gives and gives

40:18

and some people say she

40:21

takes away but no she's

40:23

always creating so that's giving

40:25

without expectation. But I think

40:28

one thing that we forget

40:30

Thomas is I'm Very respectful

40:32

of this language. I try

40:34

to use it in the

40:37

most direct way as I

40:39

can because of the way

40:41

the Lakota language is, it

40:44

doesn't beat around the bush.

40:46

You see, we need to,

40:48

because Mother Earth is requiring

40:51

that now. Mother Earth is

40:53

not hoping, a tree is

40:55

not hoping, there being and

40:57

requiring what is there, they're

41:00

made to be required for,

41:02

if that makes sense, they're

41:04

conscious of why they're here

41:07

here. It touches me very

41:09

much to feel your like

41:11

how much awareness you brought

41:13

to to the language and

41:16

how much you own the

41:18

language because I think the

41:20

language and how we use

41:23

language is very important and

41:25

like the awareness of not

41:27

only what what words we

41:29

use but what's connected to

41:32

when we speak and so

41:34

when I listen to you

41:36

like it feels very I

41:39

can resonate very much with

41:41

the quality of awareness that

41:43

you bring into language. That

41:45

feels really beautiful. So thank

41:48

you for that. And also,

41:50

thank you for reminding us

41:52

to reflect on how we

41:55

use language and what we

41:57

are actually saying when we

41:59

are saying certain things and

42:01

how important it is to

42:04

fixate the world or to

42:06

open a world. like will

42:08

not be locked in that

42:11

world that we are speaking

42:13

for. So that's that's beautiful.

42:15

So thank you. And so

42:17

when and and I left

42:20

what like that you bring

42:22

the conversation back again and

42:24

again to the generosity or

42:27

the giving dimension of earth

42:29

and and how we how

42:31

you reframe the domination like

42:33

the that actually the flow

42:36

comes from a different direction

42:38

as we often see it

42:40

in a very human eccentric

42:43

worldview and that reconnecting or

42:45

saving the planet is already

42:47

something to examine this language

42:49

and just underlining a few

42:52

things that I heard I

42:54

think that are very important

42:56

to to bring awareness to

42:59

us. So that's beautiful. And

43:01

so I Maybe one more

43:03

thing I see that the

43:05

time flies and we're like

43:08

already at the top of

43:10

the hour but the. So

43:12

what what's the role of

43:15

building community or in having

43:17

like a community of practice

43:19

having a community of ceremony

43:21

like what's the dimension of

43:24

ceremony like what's the dimension

43:26

of ceremony like what's the

43:28

dimension of ceremony? the weakness,

43:31

like the relational, the relational

43:33

quality, including community with all

43:35

levels of beings and nature.

43:38

Like, do you want to

43:40

speak a little bit to

43:42

that also in this time,

43:44

because this time, especially in

43:47

the West, this becomes often

43:49

isolated, is loneliness, isolation, qualities

43:51

that we see. and we

43:54

also see a kind of

43:56

a strong practice in at

43:58

least in some parts of

44:00

society of spaces, more community

44:03

spaces, more being together and

44:05

sharing in a space. And

44:07

maybe you can speak to

44:10

the whole aspect of community,

44:12

the resilience of community

44:14

in times of crisis. You know,

44:16

it's funny, I was just speaking

44:19

about that to some

44:21

friends this morning about

44:23

community. And one is more

44:25

of a neighborhood. One is

44:27

a community of people together.

44:29

But when you go to

44:31

the indigenous nations, it's about

44:34

community, the trees and what

44:36

people call nature, when we

44:38

don't have a word for

44:40

nature, you know, to understand

44:42

that domination, if you

44:44

have domination, there cannot

44:46

be any community. Because

44:49

domination gets in a way

44:51

of intuition. They can't coexist.

44:54

And anthropocentrically,

44:56

or anthropocentricity.

44:59

lies at the core of

45:01

decolonization, right? If you understand

45:03

this language is often used

45:06

to justify bias towards living

45:08

communities. And over these

45:10

years, over those, over those practicing

45:13

decolonization through anthropocentricity

45:15

is not going to

45:17

happen because they're just

45:20

using regurgitating the same

45:22

thought processes. And so, Thomas,

45:24

what are we learning here? What did we

45:26

learn and how do we learn it? I

45:28

can say this because of coming

45:31

from knowing one way and

45:33

being forced to learn another

45:35

way, saying you cannot be

45:37

native, you cannot be Lakota,

45:39

you have to be an

45:42

American, have to be a

45:44

Westerner and get your education

45:46

this way, because that is

45:48

old value, it doesn't work

45:50

anymore. So what did I learn?

45:52

What am I unlearning? And

45:55

how am I going to relearn?

45:57

But I don't want to relearn what I learned in

45:59

the first place. This is the

46:01

opening to that fifth

46:04

world. It's verb-based for

46:06

using more verbs, and

46:08

it's going to make

46:11

more sense as this

46:13

interview as we go

46:15

through time, that yes,

46:17

indeed, Earth is a

46:20

verb, not a noun.

46:22

And so we continue

46:24

with that value. of

46:27

learning what community is.

46:29

It's just not humans

46:31

and our resourcing of

46:34

earth and going to

46:36

church together, going to

46:38

demonstrations together, going to

46:41

spiritual retreats together. That's

46:43

not community. The value

46:45

of earth is a

46:48

community acknowledging you, earth

46:50

acknowledging your humanity rather

46:52

than humanity defining what

46:55

humanity is. So we're

46:57

leaving out the biggest

46:59

mystery that can solve

47:01

our problems by accepting

47:04

that the intuition of

47:06

earth, the intuition can

47:08

and make it living,

47:11

living languages, don't speak

47:13

about survival. And I

47:15

think communities who are

47:18

away from through

47:21

survival language, an angry language,

47:23

language of lacking. So they

47:25

make up these psychologies to

47:27

function, just a short story,

47:29

a leader, a native leader

47:32

that I know, I won't

47:34

mention any names, try to

47:36

grow up in the Western

47:38

Society, coming from the Society

47:40

of Lakota. And, excuse me,

47:43

growing up in the Western

47:45

Society, coming from the Society

47:47

of Lakota. in Western society

47:49

society and having all kinds

47:51

of problems not knowing how

47:53

to pay bills money you

47:56

know mannerisms everything dressing correctly,

47:58

fitting a form, uniform. So

48:00

he went back to the

48:02

reservation and asked, I'm having

48:04

all kinds of problems. So

48:07

the medicine person said, well,

48:09

you're here, you're not having

48:11

any problems with us as

48:13

Lakota, as who you are.

48:15

But when you go into

48:18

that world, you're having all

48:20

kinds of problems. Why don't

48:22

you go to them? And

48:24

one of their psychiatrists of

48:26

how to function in that

48:28

society. And

48:31

then he did, and he

48:33

was able to pay his

48:35

bills and all that. But

48:37

the bigger part of him

48:39

was non-civilization community, was the

48:42

community of Earth. So he

48:44

sought and he healed from

48:46

that. And yes, we as

48:48

native people can function as

48:50

the society if we don't

48:53

lose the value of being

48:55

intuitive indigenous peoples. The indigenatee

48:57

and all of us. So

49:00

it's more of a value

49:02

of not knowing what you

49:04

know Thomas or your information.

49:06

I don't want to know

49:08

that. I want to know

49:10

what you're thinking now. Then

49:12

we're in the present because

49:14

things are going to change.

49:16

Earth is going to change

49:19

us. We are not ever

49:21

going to change Earth. So

49:23

we'd like to think that

49:25

that means you're not here.

49:27

Understanding the true change of

49:29

being present with Earth. Yeah.

49:31

Oh, it's so beautiful. Beautiful.

49:33

Thank you. Given our time,

49:35

is there anything, anything you

49:37

want to leave us with,

49:39

any thoughts or any, something

49:42

to reflect on? I mean,

49:44

you gave us so much

49:46

to reflect on already. But

49:48

if there's anything important to

49:50

you that we didn't touch

49:52

on, that you would love

49:54

to bring in, please. Yeah,

49:56

thank you. I would like

49:58

to say one more. about

50:00

domination, because I think

50:03

this is key, is

50:05

that domination is the

50:07

crux of anthropocentrism, self-importance,

50:10

that domination deadens the

50:12

feeling of life as

50:14

intuitive and non-dogmatic.

50:16

In domination, shadow, the

50:19

self becomes isolated.

50:21

Domination corrupts the

50:23

rational mind and undercuts

50:26

intuitive values. senses

50:28

and living in balance with

50:30

Mother Earth. Domination,

50:32

it's manipulative, measuring,

50:34

weighing, possessing, objectifications,

50:37

subject to get

50:40

subjections, subjecting the

50:42

world to false authority. And

50:45

so we unknowingly fight

50:47

against our own elemental

50:49

consciousness and we try

50:51

to hammer consciousness into

50:53

a rational box built

50:55

on hierarchy. dogma, elitism, class

50:58

and race. It's a box

51:00

of domination and anthropocentrism

51:02

and all the other isms

51:05

that confine us in that

51:07

box. And you've heard the

51:09

people tried to think outside the

51:11

box. There's many more people

51:14

living outside that box

51:16

that understand what's going on

51:18

in the box. And the

51:21

small example is our language

51:23

in Lakota is so inclusive.

51:25

There's room for

51:27

everyone, including

51:29

Earth. But we are

51:31

confined to reservations.

51:34

So to me, that's saying

51:37

that English has

51:39

not room for

51:41

indigenous thought and

51:43

consciousness. And also

51:46

an elder, excuse

51:48

me, didn't mean to

51:50

say that much, an elder

51:52

said that. When you all came

51:54

here to America to the United

51:57

States before it was

51:59

America United States. You

52:01

came here with your

52:03

own religions. That's

52:05

yours. That's your peoples.

52:08

We'll never touch that.

52:10

That's who you are. You

52:13

came here with your laws.

52:15

We'll touch that. That's

52:17

your way. We'll never touch.

52:20

No one's going to

52:22

take that from you. He

52:24

also said this, but we...

52:27

We didn't see one thing

52:29

that you came here with and

52:31

that was land. We don't

52:34

know how the land became

52:36

yours and you put those

52:38

laws and religions on

52:40

that land and that's

52:42

called domination. So

52:45

free the earth, the concepts

52:47

get in our way and I

52:49

think there's a lot more to

52:52

be said because this needs

52:54

to be a longer conversation,

52:56

not just from the head,

52:58

but from who we are,

53:00

as you know, Thomas, that we

53:02

are truly coming from this

53:05

place called a chante. Chante

53:07

is in connection with trees and

53:09

earth and all that. And of

53:12

course, a human being, the heart,

53:14

we call it. So I think part

53:16

of it is understanding

53:18

the intelligence is that no one

53:21

speaks for is is is is

53:23

is the stones, is the stones

53:25

and the wind and the plants

53:27

and the fire and the

53:29

water. We don't hear that

53:32

enough. And so when we

53:34

get that intimately in

53:36

our language again, you

53:38

won't have to use words

53:40

like environment because

53:42

it's it's with we we

53:45

sense it intuitively we're living

53:47

it. So I don't know

53:49

if this is, I don't

53:51

know if this is what I'm supposed

53:53

to say. But it feels like

53:55

something said, this is what you're

53:57

supposed to say. Does that make sense?

54:00

Absolutely. Are you feeling called

54:02

to guide others in embodied

54:05

spiritual practice, conscious relational skill

54:07

building, and contemplative exploration? Do

54:09

you want to develop the

54:12

confidence and competencies to create

54:14

and lead a Thomas Hubel

54:16

practice group in your community

54:19

or add greater depth to

54:21

your personal practice? Join our

54:23

global cohort of the practice

54:26

group leader training led by

54:28

two of Thomas's authorized instructors.

54:30

and gain the skills to

54:33

facilitate transparent communication and guide

54:35

others in deepening their spiritual

54:37

and relational awareness. Visit the

54:39

link in this episode's show

54:42

notes to learn more. Absolutely.

54:44

And I feel deeply for

54:46

like first of all I

54:49

think it what you just

54:51

said and it needs it

54:53

a longer conversation. Maybe we

54:56

find other chances to have

54:58

a longer conversation. I would

55:00

love that because I feel

55:03

deeply with and for like

55:05

when I when I feel

55:07

the resonance of your words

55:10

it feels deeply connecting or

55:12

relational or together in a

55:14

space and it's it feels

55:17

it resonates deeply in me

55:19

in and not only in

55:21

me as Thomas in as

55:24

a bigger me. Yeah

55:27

and it touches me

55:29

also to to feel

55:31

the pain of domination

55:33

and I'm very sorry

55:35

for that that's that's

55:37

what's happening and and

55:39

I think if we

55:42

if we work together

55:44

and we have more

55:46

of this deeper spaces

55:48

I think that hopefully

55:50

is conducive to change

55:52

and we can we

55:54

can we can be

55:56

together in the exploration

55:58

more I would love

56:00

that. And, Augustine, thank

56:03

you for joining us.

56:05

I think it's great.

56:07

It's so, it's at

56:09

least for, I think,

56:11

Western Minds very reframing.

56:13

And I think if

56:15

it liberates a lot

56:17

of space. Yes. Well

56:19

spoken by, I had

56:21

a fellow teacher at

56:24

university here. talk about

56:26

the first time she

56:28

ever came to to

56:30

South Dakota because her

56:32

countries is rocks and

56:34

hills and she came

56:36

and came in the

56:38

night she woke up

56:40

in the morning and

56:42

she ever driving early

56:45

in the morning and

56:47

then the sun came

56:49

up and she could

56:51

see for hundreds of

56:53

miles and it took

56:55

her breath away. That

56:57

thinking is expansive. Not

57:00

growth, but expansive.

57:02

That's how much

57:04

availability is to

57:06

us, as you

57:08

know. So yeah,

57:10

I think an

57:12

intuitive mind is

57:14

missing because we've,

57:16

as Einstein said,

57:18

we've, you've taken

57:20

that rational mind

57:22

and made it

57:24

the sacred gift.

57:26

Yeah. Thank you.

57:28

It's an honor

57:30

to be here.

57:32

Simple, I simplified

57:34

the language so

57:36

much. Because we

57:39

need to live

57:41

as relatives with

57:43

Earth like we

57:45

are actually her

57:47

children. We need

57:49

to listen to

57:51

Earth and not

57:53

try to be

57:55

her parent. Yeah.

57:57

Yeah. I woke

57:59

away. So

58:02

much,

58:05

thank

58:09

you.

58:11

contemplate and walk with. I

58:13

think it's beautiful. you.

58:20

Thanks for listening to Point a

58:22

Relations with Thomas Hubel. Stay connected

58:24

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