0:01

We can go into

0:03

lots of realms of

0:06

building and dreaming and

0:08

higher consciousness and plant-based

0:11

communities and dream about

0:13

this bigger world. But

0:15

the second part of

0:18

this proactive work is

0:20

actively dismantling the structures

0:23

and conflicts and norms

0:25

that have created these

0:28

conditions. This is the

0:30

point of relation.

0:32

A recognized authority

0:35

on adaptive leadership

0:37

and change, Zander

0:39

Grashow has been

0:41

a confidential advisor to

0:44

Presidents, activists, and change

0:47

agents in their most

0:49

critical moments of transition.

0:52

Zander is a renowned

0:54

facilitator, speaker. and advisor

0:57

to leaders around the

1:00

world, with a broad

1:02

reach into the activist,

1:05

global business, philanthropic, entrepreneurial,

1:08

and creative communities.

1:10

Welcome to Point of Relation.

1:13

My name is Thomas Riebel

1:15

and I'm honored and I'm

1:17

very excited to have this

1:19

conversation today with Sandra Grashau.

1:22

Sandra, and one welcome to

1:24

the podcast. We had already

1:26

many conversations before so I'm

1:28

very happy that you're here

1:30

so one welcome first of

1:32

all. Thank you. It's an honor

1:34

to be here. I delight in

1:37

every conversation we have and always

1:39

discover more is possible. Yeah, me

1:41

too. I found it always very

1:43

creative. I woke away with a

1:45

lot of inspiration and it's fantastic

1:47

and I hope everybody who's tuning

1:49

in with us will feel similarly.

1:51

So, you know, we had some... Recently

1:53

we met at a big conference

1:55

and so we had a conversation

1:57

at breakfast and it was very

1:59

inspired. talking about specifically this phase,

2:02

it was post-election in the US,

2:04

but also the phase that we

2:06

are in globally and what's actually

2:08

coming in the next 10 years.

2:10

So maybe you can speak a

2:13

little bit. What are the main

2:15

points that you focus on at

2:17

the moment that you see and

2:19

notice? And what do you think

2:21

is important for us in terms

2:24

of leadership? What's important for us

2:26

in what's important for us in

2:28

you know, driving change, creating organizations

2:30

and social impact that create change.

2:32

Then we will unpack that deeper

2:35

and deeper. That's a big invitation,

2:37

Thomas, and a big conversation. So

2:39

thank you for hosting me and

2:41

hosting this whole series to look

2:43

at this. having been someone who

2:46

works in adaptive change for the

2:48

last almost 30 years now, people

2:50

come up to me all the

2:52

time and say, isn't this the

2:54

time of the most change we've

2:57

ever had? And it's kind of

2:59

not true, I think. This kind

3:01

of need to adapt has been

3:03

here throughout our entire history, whether

3:05

Neanderthals were chasing us for our

3:08

food and our lifestyle, whether we're

3:10

in wars or conflict or slavery,

3:12

there's been adaptation that's been necessary

3:14

the entire time. And so this

3:16

error doesn't feel like it's fundamentally

3:19

more than it's been in the

3:21

past. I will say that the

3:23

combination of the climate catastrophe and

3:25

AI are making me believe and

3:27

others believe that we have to

3:30

adapt faster than we have before.

3:32

And that feels fundamentally different. The

3:34

speed of adaptation and what is

3:36

being asked of us right now

3:38

feels extraordinarily large. And as you

3:41

often talk about our nervous systems,

3:43

our ability to hold this much

3:45

change, this much complexity, feels outmatched

3:47

at times. And so how do

3:49

we meet the moment inside of

3:52

ourselves? How do we meet it

3:54

collectively? And what does that work?

3:56

Is the leadership challenge of the

3:58

next decade? We talk about the

4:00

poly crisis, the metacrysis. That's really

4:03

scary. Even that language makes my

4:05

nervous system kind of collapse. I

4:07

talk about it with my kids

4:09

as the muchness of term I

4:11

learned from my friend, Yana, the

4:14

muchness. There's just so much going

4:16

on. And so the question for

4:18

all of us is how do

4:20

we. hold and relate to and

4:22

be in relationship to the muchness,

4:25

the volume of what's happening so

4:27

that we can do something about

4:29

it. I could talk at length

4:31

about adaptation and some of the

4:33

skills and tools, but it does

4:36

feel like the systems we're living

4:38

under are under significant strain and

4:40

fragility. When I started doing this

4:42

work 30 years ago and talking

4:44

about adaptation, it would take a

4:47

few paragraphs. It doesn't seem like

4:49

that's necessary anymore. The interesting thing

4:51

to me is that there's this

4:53

collective consciousness that our systems are

4:55

broken. Whether you're on the far

4:58

right or far left or in

5:00

the middle, we know our systems

5:02

are broken and need attention. And

5:04

so the question is how do

5:06

we rise to meet that collectively

5:09

and individually, which is why I'm

5:11

so happy to be in this

5:13

ongoing conversation with you. Yeah, me

5:15

too. So let's let's unpack a

5:17

little bit the adaptation for our

5:20

listeners and just to speak a

5:22

little bit about the concept. Okay,

5:24

how do we as humans or

5:26

how does life adapt to changing

5:28

circumstances and and why Why are

5:31

we at all talking about adaptation?

5:33

Why is that not a built-in

5:35

function of our intelligence that, you

5:37

know, that movement adapts to movement?

5:39

So we are simply adapting and

5:42

it's the most natural thing, like

5:44

breathing, breathing. You talk about breathing

5:46

mostly when you have difficulties, or

5:48

when there's an issue of breathing,

5:50

then it's, oh, wow, I should.

5:53

But why are we talking about

5:55

adaptation? Why is that not? naturally

5:57

happening? Yeah, well I think it

5:59

is naturally happening all the time.

6:01

I think humans are extraordinary at

6:04

adapting. The problem is we're also

6:06

extraordinary at maladapting. Right? We react

6:08

to the circumstances and events that

6:10

happen to us in lots of

6:12

ways, not all of which are

6:15

extraordinarily at adaptive that lead us

6:17

to bigger outcomes, healthier, well-being, healing.

6:19

A lot of our adaptations are

6:21

maladaptive and make us smaller, more

6:23

constrained. So I do think we're

6:26

constantly in adaptive modes, adaptive reactions.

6:28

And then this beautiful question that

6:30

we've also addressed before is where

6:32

did we learn to adapt from?

6:34

Like what are the models and

6:37

what's available to us? And so

6:39

yes, I think we're constantly adapting,

6:41

but we're both maladapting and adapting,

6:43

and we don't have always the

6:45

creative availability to look at solutions

6:48

that we're not exposed to us

6:50

early on. And so I think

6:52

that's why it's an interesting study.

6:54

And why, when we look at

6:56

how to adapt, we don't change

6:59

everything. Part of this question of

7:01

how to adapt is what should

7:03

we hold on to that's part

7:05

of our history, our heritage, or

7:07

who we are? How do we

7:10

understand what we need to grow

7:12

into next? And what is it

7:14

time to let go of? And

7:16

most of us weren't trained in

7:18

how to let go of anything,

7:21

how to let go with... that

7:23

work. I talk a lot of

7:25

my work about adaptation. One of

7:27

the critical skill sets of adaptation

7:29

is hospice, end of life care.

7:32

How do we let go with

7:34

grace some of the principal ways

7:36

we've known to be and operate

7:38

in the world? And so it

7:40

feels to me part of what

7:43

will happen in this next period

7:45

of adaptation is letting go of

7:47

some of the ways we've learned

7:49

to be and needed to be,

7:51

out of our own survival instincts

7:54

and protection and protection from the

7:56

past. So what I hear what

7:58

you just said is. something

8:01

we preserve, there's something we need

8:03

to hospice and there's something new

8:05

that we will need to grow

8:07

into like three forces basically. And

8:10

let's talk a little bit about,

8:12

I'll come back to the hospice,

8:14

how do we feel what's worth

8:16

preserving? Because it's not that everything

8:19

needs to. go like there are

8:21

things that are growing in life

8:23

millions of years and a lot

8:26

life preserved a lot of the

8:28

functions that they develop so how

8:30

when you speak about that part

8:32

a little bit more for our

8:35

listeners like how what's what how

8:37

do we feel what's worth preserving?

8:39

Yeah. And I think it's a

8:41

beautiful question because part of it

8:44

is exactly as you said, how

8:46

do we feel into it? Not

8:48

how do we think into it,

8:50

right? And it requires a kind

8:53

of competence and craft of feeling,

8:55

of feeling into our body, of

8:57

feeling into our emotional dexterity, of

9:00

feeling into our spirit and our

9:02

meaning making, right? It's about creating

9:04

space to understand what allows us

9:06

to be in presence and in

9:09

relationship to our reality. What are

9:11

those skills, those places, those relationships,

9:13

those routines that allow us to

9:15

actually be in dialogue with our

9:18

own existence? And we can feel

9:20

that with increasing skill set. A

9:22

lot of this adaptive work about

9:24

what to keep is a skill,

9:27

right? It's actually a craft of

9:29

understanding how do we be in

9:31

relationship to what is real and

9:34

worthy. what creates opportunity for us

9:36

to really be in an energetic

9:38

relationship with our worth, our sense

9:40

of possibility, our creativity. But it's

9:43

a skill set and I think

9:45

we don't often hone that skill

9:47

set well enough. Yeah, but I

9:49

think that you have, there's a

9:52

great point in in looking also

9:54

because sometimes we get frozen when

9:56

it seems like, oh, I need

9:59

to let go of everything and

10:01

there. and I like to restart

10:03

my life fully knew, instead of,

10:05

okay, there are some things that

10:08

life developed that are here for

10:10

a good reason and they're still

10:12

kind of relational in the context

10:14

that we are living in, even

10:17

with the change that we relate

10:19

to. And so, so then what,

10:21

how do we filter the parts

10:23

that are that need to be

10:26

let go of? So we need

10:28

to let go of. what how

10:30

do we how do we find

10:33

that part in our life where

10:35

if you make it very practical

10:37

you spoke before about we'll need

10:39

to let go of some things

10:42

right now in this next phase

10:44

maybe you can speak a bit

10:46

what are culturally some of the

10:48

things that we need to let

10:51

go of yeah well first of

10:53

all there's a lot in all

10:55

of that right in this question

10:57

of when we believe we have

11:00

to get rid of everything, our

11:02

defense and our protection system reacts

11:04

immediately. And so then the space

11:07

to be in conversation with what

11:09

do we keep and what do

11:11

we let go of evaporates very

11:13

quickly. And so I think this

11:16

question of what is it time

11:18

to let go of and what

11:20

is it time to be hold

11:22

sacred is part of the work.

11:25

And I think about that in

11:27

so many different levels. That's part

11:29

of who I am. It's as

11:32

you talk about with our ancestors

11:34

and in society. My father is,

11:36

I'm dealing with an aging father

11:38

as I come to my own

11:41

birthday, right? I'm turning 50, which

11:43

is a big deal for me,

11:45

right? I feel in some ways

11:47

I describe it as being halfway

11:50

home. But I'm with this beautiful

11:52

conversation with what parts of my

11:54

father do I love and want

11:56

to celebrate and carry in me

11:59

in the way I embody him

12:01

and myself and translate to my

12:03

kids? And what was a generational

12:06

difference that it's time to let

12:08

go of of how we parent

12:10

or know how to love each

12:12

other? I think there's a frame

12:15

with which you're asking also in

12:17

a much bigger sense of what

12:19

is it time to let go

12:21

of? And part of what we

12:24

are aware of. is that this

12:26

dominant system that we're working under,

12:28

this capitalist system, is very destructive

12:30

in its extractive nature, not just

12:33

of the environment, but of our

12:35

own spirits and our relationships. And

12:37

so unfortunately there's a longer list

12:40

of things that we might want

12:42

to look at of how do

12:44

we let go of, from consumerism

12:46

to materialism to our own sense

12:49

of identity and polarization. And what

12:51

hospice in this adaptive work tells

12:53

us is that we don't just

12:55

snap our fingers and get rid

12:58

of it. Hospice is a deliberate

13:00

act of being a relationship with

13:02

those things that are antiquated. How

13:05

do we be in relationship with

13:07

those with others? How do we

13:09

do that through ritual and ceremony

13:11

and practice so we can honor

13:14

the space that it's had in

13:16

our lives, what it served for

13:18

us, but also allows us to

13:20

begin to let go of? And

13:23

that's going to be very real.

13:25

Whether you look at some of

13:27

the ways we've lived our lives

13:29

of throwing things away, right? I

13:32

can't tell you how many conversations

13:34

I've had with my children about

13:36

throwing things away. There's no away.

13:39

Like there is no way. Exactly.

13:41

It doesn't exist. And so the

13:43

very nature of our productivity and

13:45

sense of selves. A lot of

13:48

this is the big conversation that

13:50

I'm hoping we can be more

13:52

skilled in having. Yeah I love

13:54

this one because it's very interesting

13:57

because there was for a long

13:59

time you know when we lived

14:01

in certain parts of the planet

14:03

and the planet and then there

14:06

was one culture here one culture

14:08

over there then there was an

14:10

out there somewhere at least in

14:13

the somewhere in the no man's

14:15

land there was out there but

14:17

I think that out there disappeared

14:19

so there is no throwing away

14:22

but there is also some of

14:24

the identity structures of this cultural

14:26

fields don't make sense in village

14:28

and the less some of these

14:31

identity structures make sense and you

14:33

spoke about one of the collective

14:35

identity structures makes sense and you

14:37

spoke about one of the collective

14:40

identity structures is capitalism, there are

14:42

others and there are spiritual or

14:44

religious identity structures and there are

14:47

all kinds of identity structures that

14:49

will need to change to make

14:51

sense in a village and not

14:53

anymore in such a big world.

14:56

And so when you So that

14:58

the third power that you're speaking

15:00

to is the new that we

15:02

grow into. So if let's say

15:05

we let go of some of

15:07

the identity structures or some of

15:09

the things that are changing that

15:12

are not that obsolete kind of.

15:14

So how do we down what's

15:16

the process of tapping into what's

15:18

coming? Like, how do we feel,

15:21

no, I don't know, how is

15:23

the inspiration working of what's coming?

15:25

And how do we identify? There

15:27

are so many impulses sometimes that

15:30

seem to be new, but only

15:32

some of them really make it

15:34

into like a new world, let's

15:36

say, and some of them die

15:39

out before they even make it

15:41

into a new world. So how

15:43

do we know how to, like,

15:46

where to put our horses? question

15:48

that's answered in dialogue with other

15:50

people than ourselves, just to say.

15:52

What is worth doing is much

15:55

better answered in relationship with other

15:57

people and other people who are

15:59

different than ourselves. I can't tell

16:01

you how many good ideas I

16:04

have that someone has already thought

16:06

of or tried. I know those

16:08

moments of discovery. But I think

16:10

there's different ways of looking at

16:13

that, right? One is this very

16:15

simple question of, am I contributing

16:17

to the dominant system that exists

16:20

now? or am I hoping to

16:22

emerge something that's new and healthier?

16:24

And thus that little bit of...

16:26

can be quite useful to understand

16:29

how and what we're doing, right?

16:31

Because I think part of what

16:33

is so obvious now is we

16:35

can work on the dominant system

16:38

and try and maximize it or

16:40

attainment, or is there something that's

16:42

emerging that is worth doing? And

16:45

I think that's where we need

16:47

some work. The problem with a

16:49

lot of this, Thomas, and my

16:51

experience is that we don't have

16:54

an imagination for what is needed

16:56

or what is possible. having done

16:58

a lot of work in politics

17:00

and in the country in the

17:03

last number of years, there's a

17:05

kind of despair that exists. And

17:07

part of the reason I believe

17:09

that despair exists is because people

17:12

do not have a future that

17:14

they see themselves in. And when

17:16

we don't have a future that

17:19

we see ourselves in, we're incredibly

17:21

susceptible to fear or seduction or

17:23

to our old patterns in ways

17:25

of being. And so I'm really

17:28

trying to encourage myself of like,

17:30

what is possible? What is a

17:32

future I could believe in and

17:34

what are the steps to enact

17:37

that? Those are the ideas that

17:39

I'm getting more enchanted with in

17:41

trying to support in myself and

17:43

others. Because I think when we

17:46

have a future we believe in,

17:48

we're willing to do hard work,

17:50

we're willing to sweat, we're willing

17:53

to sacrifice, we're willing to look

17:55

at some of the hard questions.

17:57

and in the most beautiful way

17:59

there's a little bit more room

18:02

for nuance. Like there's no future

18:04

that exists where we don't fall

18:06

in love with a bit more

18:08

nuance. And so what are the

18:11

futures that allow for some nuance

18:13

is where I'm finding more of

18:15

my own attention and desire going.

18:18

Are you saying that like in

18:20

developing in myself a vision that

18:22

where I can in which I

18:24

can see myself as a participant

18:27

of a future world, then that

18:29

gives me some kind of strength

18:31

or agency to kind of establish

18:33

that around myself. and be part

18:36

of it and work for it

18:38

or invest in like my energy

18:40

into it. And so, and also

18:42

just give some passion, right? Like,

18:45

where's the passion and the fire

18:47

to put in the time and

18:49

effort and energy, right? The passion

18:52

is contagious and there's less passion

18:54

available at the moments when people

18:56

are so heavy and exhausted. Exactly.

18:58

So that's beautiful. Like you're saying,

19:01

and I think that resonates also

19:03

for me a lot, like where

19:05

you feel your passion and your

19:07

fire to contribute, there is some

19:10

kind of truth to it for

19:12

yourself. So that's one indicator. I

19:14

think that's a beautiful indicator. And

19:16

then I'm wondering about, like he

19:19

said, like, to invest our energy

19:21

into stuff that feels healthier than

19:23

the other one. But sometimes we

19:26

are caught up in these patterns

19:28

that we do stuff, even if

19:30

it's not healthier, we are bound

19:32

to the patterns of our past

19:35

that we partly unconsciously reproduce. So

19:37

how do I first notice what's

19:39

healthier? Because maybe that in itself

19:41

is already challenging. And then how

19:44

do I let go of my

19:46

patterns to really invest? my energy

19:48

into something new that sometimes it's

19:51

easier to go with the old

19:53

than to to go into something

19:55

new. How would you, how do

19:57

you see that? Yeah, I think,

20:00

I think it's a hard day

20:02

for anyone when someone realizes they

20:04

feel at home, but they're not

20:06

really at home. It's just an

20:09

old pattern, right? Like to learn

20:11

a lesson twice is one of

20:13

the most annoying things that could

20:15

happen, let alone learn in three

20:18

times. Right? I think that's those

20:20

are really hard days, you know.

20:22

And I think that question of

20:25

like, how do we know what

20:27

is home, right, requires, as you

20:29

talk about often, some spaciousness, some

20:31

ability to kind of rely. the

20:34

reality of what's there. When we

20:36

have no space, it's impossible to

20:38

metabolize the feelings, the ideas in

20:40

a more productive way. And so

20:43

I think that's part of the

20:45

key ingredient in this crazy hectic

20:47

world. How do we create some

20:49

sanctuaries in space to be able

20:52

to digest what is possible or

20:54

necessary for us? In adaptive leadership,

20:56

we often talk about this language

20:59

of. getting on the balcony, which

21:01

is just a phrase of reflection

21:03

in the midst of action. But

21:05

it's everybody else's job to pull

21:08

you off of that balcony to

21:10

get you to worry about what

21:12

they're worried about. And so the

21:14

discipline of getting on the balcony

21:17

to get some perspective to be

21:19

able to interpret and metabolize what

21:21

is actually happening to me, to

21:23

actually feel awe or grief or

21:26

you know, any feeling, is part

21:28

of where I think the space

21:30

needs to be. So I think

21:33

that's part of what I'm hungry

21:35

for and hungry for others to

21:37

have that space and to be

21:39

in that in collective, right? So

21:42

that we can depersonalize some of

21:44

that conflict or choices to be

21:46

able to address what's there. I'm

21:48

not sure I fully answered your

21:51

question. Oh, it speaks to it.

21:53

Meditation is a deep and essential

21:55

part. of spiritual practice, definitely of

21:58

our spiritual practice in our community.

22:00

Meditation has many many effects. It

22:02

helps us to synchronize ourselves better

22:04

with ourselves. It helps us to

22:07

digest our experience. It helps us

22:09

to be more regulated and integrated.

22:11

And it also helps us to

22:13

tap into... deeper states of consciousness

22:16

that give us a deeper awareness

22:18

of our life and life and

22:20

connect us to a more transcendent

22:22

or transpersonal reality. And so I'm

22:25

very happy that Susanna and Martin

22:27

are offering a course on meditation

22:29

where people can exchange, ask the

22:32

questions that are coming up. Martin

22:34

and Susanna are studying with me

22:36

for 20 years and running courses

22:38

for I think about 10 years

22:41

and really soaked in the teachings

22:43

that are also a combination of

22:45

our healing work and the transpersonal

22:47

work and transpersonal work. and can

22:50

pass that on beautifully, if you're

22:52

interested, I highly recommend to join,

22:54

become part of our practitioner community.

22:56

So you're most welcome and most

22:59

invited. Hello, my name is Martin

23:01

Burrus and I'm Sesana Aldnov. We

23:03

are here to tell you that

23:06

you can deepen your meditation practice

23:08

and in our new online minicoas,

23:10

we will share Our collective knowledge

23:12

and experience to help you unlock

23:15

your next steps to enjoying your

23:17

meditation journey even more. So the

23:19

boss of us Martin and me,

23:21

we have studying with Thomas for

23:24

nearly 20 years and have been

23:26

guiding meditation retreats in this field

23:28

of Thomas for 10 years. So

23:31

for a lot of people, the

23:33

collective energy of the group, and

23:35

the concentration in the group can

23:37

strengthen my individual practice that could

23:40

help me to dive deeper. This

23:42

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over a four-week period. Whatever level

23:46

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23:49

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23:51

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23:53

be live teachings. You can ask

23:55

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and in between sessions, home practices.

24:00

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24:02

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24:05

that you can discover new keys

24:07

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24:09

your vitality and aliveness even more.

24:11

Click on the link in the

24:14

show notes or visit Thomas Hubel.com/meditation

24:16

dash course to learn more and

24:18

register. The course begins on April

24:20

17th. And so like you said

24:23

before one aspect and I think

24:25

that's great for all of us

24:27

to tune in with is one

24:29

aspect is passion do you feel

24:32

passionate about my life or do

24:34

I get up with a yes

24:36

or do I get up with

24:39

a maybe and so like that's

24:41

that's one indicator maybe to keep

24:43

looking not that I have to

24:45

get up with a yes but

24:48

if it's not like this then

24:50

there ways how to do some

24:52

inquiries. And then you said the

24:54

other part is to be able

24:57

to have enough space to do

24:59

the inquiry. So to see, look,

25:01

what's actually happening in my life

25:04

and where are choices that I

25:06

do or I can take or

25:08

I don't take at the moment.

25:10

And so that's another indicator I

25:13

think for us. And then when

25:15

you look at humanity's history, one

25:17

could say, well, like, so there's

25:19

always the interplay between. conscious adaptation

25:22

and some people live their lives

25:24

in a way they are constantly

25:26

micro adopting their life already before

25:28

they need to make a big

25:31

shift because something feels stuck. So

25:33

it's like that it's also like

25:35

a skill to be attuned to

25:38

the future that's emerging and as

25:40

you go with it so you

25:42

don't need a crisis to adapt

25:44

because you're adapting already voluntarily let's

25:47

it. And then there's the other

25:49

side of it that we for

25:51

a long time. follow the change

25:53

that's needed, often it ends up

25:56

in crisis. So we miss many

25:58

signs of change and then there

26:00

is a crisis. So when we

26:02

look at humanity's history, it seems

26:05

like often we, you know, that

26:07

them needs to break often in

26:09

a painful way to allow for

26:12

a new step of change. And

26:14

maybe you can speak a little

26:16

bit about these two ways, like

26:18

one that is a tune that

26:21

is conscious, that is constantly curious

26:23

and looking for where new possibilities

26:25

are rising and the one that

26:27

I'm sleeping in my habits until

26:30

I bump against an obstacle and

26:32

then it looks like a crisis

26:34

and that creates an awakening. Maybe

26:37

you can speak about this too,

26:39

how that shows up for you

26:41

or if that resonates at all

26:43

with you. Yeah, of course. And,

26:46

you know, I think the reality

26:48

is we'll always have a mix

26:50

of both, right? And I think

26:52

the question is, what does it

26:55

mean to be proactively adaptive? Exactly.

26:57

And the bad news is it

26:59

takes more than just good intentions,

27:01

right? The history of good intentions

27:04

is a very mixed bag in

27:06

human history, right? It takes extraordinary

27:08

kind of skill and discipline to

27:11

do this work. And I think

27:13

that's really what is important because

27:15

so much of what this work

27:17

is also has to bump into

27:20

is privilege. And I define privilege

27:22

as the freedom to look away.

27:24

And so if we're going to

27:26

proactively adapt, it's really about like

27:29

a little kid, like where are

27:31

we going to place our attention,

27:33

right? How are we going to

27:35

get the adults to place their

27:38

attention on what matters most? And

27:40

I think that's where some of

27:42

this work is in this adaptive

27:45

proactive, what is requires our attention

27:47

that we're going to be dedicated

27:49

and disciplined about, and then understand

27:51

what is the skill set we

27:54

need to bring to it, whether

27:56

it's polarization or economic disparity or

27:58

the, you know, the climate catastrophe

28:00

that we're in. I mean, it's

28:03

so easy to understand a billion

28:05

people in the next decade will

28:07

have to migrate due to the

28:09

climate crisis. But it's so hard

28:12

to hold my attention to that

28:14

to understand what is my skill

28:16

set responsibility and craft that I

28:19

need. And when we do this

28:21

proactive, adaptive work, I experience it

28:23

usually falls into three buckets, right?

28:25

One we've talked about a little

28:28

bit, right? What is the future

28:30

that we can imagine? that can

28:32

be safer or better or welcoming

28:34

to a billion migrants from the

28:37

climate catastrophe? What is the world

28:39

we're building? That's one piece of

28:41

this work. The second piece of

28:44

the work is what do we

28:46

have to dismantle? What are the

28:48

constructs of this world that we

28:50

actually have to do dismantling work?

28:53

We can go into lots of

28:55

realms of building and dreaming and

28:57

higher consciousness and plant-based communities and

28:59

dream about this bigger world. But

29:02

the second part of this proactive

29:04

work is actively dismantling the structures

29:06

and conflicts and norms that have

29:08

created these conditions. And then I

29:11

think the last part, if there's

29:13

three of them, is the skill

29:15

set. What are the skill sets

29:18

that we need to meet? ambiguity,

29:20

conflict, a stranger to do healing

29:22

and repair to do hospice. So

29:24

if I want to engage myself

29:27

or my communities or leaders in

29:29

the world with actually doing proactive

29:31

adaptive work, I have to do

29:33

those three things, I believe. Actively,

29:36

proactively think about what's a future

29:38

that could exist. What do we

29:40

need to dismantle and get rid

29:42

of in hospice to create that?

29:45

And what's the skill sets we

29:47

need? That's just on the... proactive

29:49

end. Now, I also think the

29:52

second will always be true. Anytime

29:54

we believe we understand what the

29:56

future will begin, we will be

29:58

humbled. And so when that happens,

30:01

when we are forced to be

30:03

reactive, Where do we go? Where

30:05

do we go inside of ourselves?

30:07

Where do we go in our

30:10

communities? Where do we go in

30:12

safe places so that we can

30:14

meet that moment with the best

30:17

of us, not the pattern response

30:19

that exists. And that has to

30:21

be built in because unfortunately the

30:23

velocity of what we're gonna have

30:26

to react to is just increasing.

30:28

We're going to spend more and

30:30

more time reacting to the system

30:32

failures that exist in ways that

30:35

I think we've had before. So

30:37

I would love to be more

30:39

proactive and build communities and relationships

30:41

where it happens and the reactivity.

30:44

I want to have a method

30:46

and a way that we go

30:48

into that and drop in that

30:51

is a process that can be

30:53

replicated over time because I think

30:55

both are called for. Yeah, beautiful.

30:57

Beautiful. Beautiful. I love the distinction

31:00

and on our level. So how

31:02

we, what's the best environment for

31:04

our reactivity? That's a great, like,

31:06

well, how do we build ourselves

31:09

an ecosystem where we can go

31:11

to to deal with the reactivity

31:13

and not just to not have

31:15

it, but to have it consciously?

31:18

I think that's a great addition.

31:20

And then I loved, like, the

31:22

proactive. deconstruction and how we identify

31:25

proactively the structures before they become

31:27

dams that break, like how do

31:29

we notice those and deconstruct them

31:31

voluntarily, and also how it how

31:34

we deal with the fact that

31:36

these structures stabilize something in us.

31:38

Usually the structures they don't want

31:40

to change stabilize something in us.

31:43

They stabilize how we hold fear,

31:45

how we dealt with the past

31:47

or some trauma. So when we

31:50

deconstruct the structures, we also need

31:52

to deal with some stuff that

31:54

comes up in the change process.

31:56

But I think that's a beautiful

31:59

delineation of how we tune to

32:01

the future. are coming and we

32:03

are not looking away because it

32:05

would be everybody who sees some

32:08

a little bit more of the

32:10

future will have to stay connected

32:12

to it because it's not the

32:14

mainstream yet. So we need to

32:17

be dedicated to that process and

32:19

we need to be dedicated to

32:21

the structural changes you said. That's

32:24

beautiful. So when we take this

32:26

all what we spoke about now

32:28

and we look at. the next

32:30

10 years. So how how would

32:33

you apply this now? Well, what

32:35

are you? So you talk about

32:37

the AI and climate change radius,

32:39

some big topics that are rising

32:42

right now, and they will bring

32:44

a lot of change. So what

32:46

do you see our? Let's look

32:48

a little bit into the fortune

32:51

telling. Yeah, I mean, I think

32:53

it's, it's, I'm reminded of Desmond

32:55

Tutu, right, who you know, said

32:58

beautifully, he's astounded. I'm paraphrasing, which

33:00

is a thing to do with

33:02

Desmond, who's so good with words,

33:04

but like I'm astounded by the

33:07

terrible and wonderful things humans do

33:09

to each other. And I think

33:11

the next 10 years is going

33:13

to be a lot of that.

33:16

People are very good at acquiring

33:18

power and not very good at

33:20

sharing it or letting go. And

33:23

so I think we're going to

33:25

see the dinosaur clause of our

33:27

power systems holding on tightly. One

33:29

of the things I've spent the

33:32

last few years looking at is

33:34

trying to understand and develop power

33:36

literacy. I think we need to

33:38

understand in much more significant ways

33:41

how power works. What are the

33:43

structures of power? What are the

33:45

cultural forms of power? Information power

33:47

so we can understand what power

33:50

we have and how to interact

33:52

with that. There's lots of evidence

33:54

for most people we talk to

33:57

that the world will be more

33:59

volatile, more complex in the next

34:01

10 years. So we know that,

34:03

right? That's not very debatable. The

34:06

question is, what do we need

34:08

to do about that? What relationships

34:10

do we need to be in?

34:12

What skill sets do we need

34:15

to have? And what amount of

34:17

effort do we need to put

34:19

into our communities, not just on

34:21

the inner world of ourselves? And

34:24

what's the balance of those things?

34:26

And so this is a time

34:28

for me, obviously reacting heavily to

34:31

the globe's elections and what it's

34:33

choosing as an escape. from the

34:35

pressure and tensions that exist right

34:37

now. But it feels to me

34:40

that we need to have a

34:42

different set of solutions. And to

34:44

do that we need to be

34:46

in creative relationship with ourselves and

34:49

each other in an honest dialogue

34:51

about what has created. In the

34:53

book we wrote, like the first

34:55

chapter is the illusion of the

34:58

broken system. The system was designed

35:00

this way by power by systems,

35:02

and it's really valuable to understand

35:05

it so we know how to

35:07

engage and mobilize and change it.

35:09

And it's so easy to look

35:11

away from it because it's exhausting.

35:14

But it's also where creativity and

35:16

opportunity and love can thrive when

35:18

we actually engage. So I'm, as

35:20

a parent of three children, I'm

35:23

worried about the next decade, actively.

35:25

I have a dinner where I

35:27

get people of cross generations. I've

35:30

been doing this for the last

35:32

few months, talking about it. Everybody's

35:34

pretty scared. And so the question

35:36

is, where do we honor that

35:39

scare? That feeling? And where do

35:41

we put that? So we can

35:43

also be in relationship with it,

35:45

metabolize it, and not get stuck

35:48

there. Because everyone I know is

35:50

a bit exhausted. And some people

35:52

are exhausted because they need sleep.

35:54

Some are exhausted because they need

35:57

nourishment, and some are exhausted because

35:59

they need peace. And until we

36:01

understand what people need in those

36:04

different categories, we're not going to

36:06

be able to rise to the

36:08

creative impulse that created this whole

36:10

universe and this. planet and us.

36:13

So it's a volatile time to

36:15

me about building everything you're talking

36:17

about, about the inner world and

36:19

the inner sciences, but equally so,

36:22

it's the collective sciences and our

36:24

systems and how do we honor

36:26

and engage in those and this

36:28

beautiful dialogue that exists because the

36:31

more I understand inside of me,

36:33

the more I hope and want

36:35

for the world and the more

36:38

I see and understand the world,

36:40

the more it reflects on who

36:42

I am or who I could

36:44

be. and this invitation to be

36:47

in this dialogue that will never

36:49

end, but is the beautiful opportunity

36:51

for us to be this creative

36:53

force of the universe to connect

36:56

to it, I think is incredibly

36:58

necessary. Yeah, that's beautifully put, like,

37:00

like the interplay between the individual

37:03

and the collective and that, and

37:05

that the illusion to let go

37:07

of the illusion of an end.

37:09

Like what is if I give

37:12

myself to the dance because of

37:14

the dance not because I'm dancing

37:16

until the song finishes like I'm

37:18

dancing. So often we are thinking

37:21

about okay I'll give myself to

37:23

the dance but then I'll get

37:25

there instead of I'm getting more

37:27

and more skilled in dancing and

37:30

I want to dance I want

37:32

to live you know and living

37:34

is dancing and so that's beautifully

37:37

put so. How can I simply

37:39

learn something and deepen myself? And

37:41

it's an ongoing movement. And we

37:43

find peace in the movement. And

37:46

I think it's an art. I

37:48

think it's an artistic process. I

37:50

taught human figure drawing for a

37:52

number of years. And one of

37:55

the biggest lessons to me was

37:57

the difference between illustration and art

37:59

as I started to understand it.

38:01

That illustration was where I knew

38:04

this thing I wanted to create,

38:06

and all I had to do

38:08

is figure out how do I

38:11

create this thing to get to

38:13

that outcome. And art is this

38:15

unfolding discovery process of learning and

38:17

questioning. excitement and passion, right? And

38:20

it unfolds in this way, you

38:22

can't predict. And in the complexity

38:24

of life, I would love for

38:26

it to be illustration. I'd love

38:29

for it to be simple and

38:31

have a simple answer. I can

38:33

identify in myself the complexity and

38:36

the exhaustion from it and the

38:38

desire to go to some simplicity,

38:40

which is also just the recipe

38:42

for fundamentalism. this reduction of nuance

38:45

and complexity to some simplicity, I

38:47

feel that hunger in myself. And

38:49

can I have the patience and

38:51

the relationship to dance and music

38:54

and art to be this unfolding

38:56

process? The only thing we know

38:58

is that it's not going to

39:00

look like what it is today.

39:03

How can that be an adventure

39:05

rather than a burden and so

39:07

scary to me and to others?

39:10

Yeah, that's beautiful. I love the

39:12

delineation between illustration and art. The

39:14

art is a process of finding

39:16

out and not just of illustrating

39:19

the world. I think that's very

39:21

well put and also the simplification,

39:23

how the code, when I feel

39:25

overwhelmed by complexity, because it's hard

39:28

for me to swim in complexity,

39:30

then I need to simplify. And

39:32

as you said, that leads to

39:34

certain... movements in our world where

39:37

that become the defense against complexity

39:39

is the simplification. That's different than

39:41

that. Yeah, it's very helpful in

39:44

parenting teenagers. If I had any

39:46

belief that I know what I'm

39:48

doing. Right. Exactly. But the same

39:50

is true in politics. Right? And

39:53

we have to figure out how

39:55

do we engage the other while

39:57

holding on to some sense of

39:59

self while also being porous to

40:02

discover ourselves. That sounds like art

40:04

to me, right? And I know

40:06

So for me that I use

40:09

music as a way to touch

40:11

and discover the parts of myself

40:13

that I can't yet hold on

40:15

to, but want to access. Where

40:18

are the arts the vehicle for

40:20

some of that? Right? I just

40:22

think we need more theme songs

40:24

for this moment. And so I

40:27

already. identified a few things that

40:29

we could have follow up conversations

40:31

about like the individual and the

40:33

collective movement and how illustration and

40:36

art. These are like these are

40:38

great conversations to unpack more because

40:40

there's so much more to say

40:43

and the theme songs like how

40:45

art and creativity helps us in

40:47

this time and collectively also what

40:49

is art in the collective body.

40:52

But I want to for today

40:54

I want to circle a bit

40:56

back to the challenge. that we

40:58

face. For example, let's speak a

41:01

little bit about AI and how

41:03

what you see coming when you

41:05

look at the current development of

41:07

AI or central intelligence. Let's look

41:10

at this. Well, how do you

41:12

see this developing? Where do you

41:14

see the current development and what's

41:17

what it's going to change from

41:19

at least what we can see?

41:21

And then there's all the stuff

41:23

that we can see. There

41:26

are many people who are studying

41:28

this and I love listening to

41:30

them. I have the beauty of

41:32

working with a number of people

41:35

whose decisions have outsized impact, who

41:37

run companies and countries and movements,

41:39

all of whom believe it is

41:41

going to affect the way we

41:43

live and work in dramatic ways.

41:46

That is going to lead to

41:48

some significant shifts in employment and

41:50

productivity and identity. And I'm concerned

41:52

about that, not because I think

41:54

so many of the ways... that

41:57

people have working is nurturing the

41:59

best of themselves. But when people

42:01

who have done right and played

42:03

along with the system, then no

42:05

longer have a place in it.

42:08

Where do they go? And they

42:10

either can go to a belief

42:12

system that we should turn back

42:14

the clock to something that was

42:16

existed before and be angry that

42:19

that does not exist now. Or

42:21

they can turn to some creative

42:23

other ways of humanity and connection.

42:25

My concern is that the second

42:27

route doesn't exist as much as

42:30

it needs to. That those who

42:32

have been disenfranchised by a system

42:34

want to re-engage it in a

42:36

productive way don't have the vehicles

42:38

and outlets to do that. And

42:41

so that's my concern. Where does

42:43

they land? Where do these good

42:45

humans and souls who want to

42:47

provide for their families and lifestyles?

42:49

Where do they land? And how

42:52

do we support them in a

42:54

rediscovery of what is possible in

42:56

their own lineage, in their own

42:58

history of bravery and courage and

43:00

connection and fortitude? That's my concern

43:03

in the next three to five

43:05

years. We can talk beyond that.

43:07

But also we have people who

43:09

are going to oversee these changes,

43:11

who have lots of pressure on

43:14

them, not to take care of

43:16

the entire system or look at

43:18

the externalities. I think AI is

43:20

going to change our workforce or

43:22

productivity identities some significant ways, and

43:25

what I'm worried about is where

43:27

the disenfranchised will go in their

43:29

own stories, in their own interpretation,

43:31

and literally how will they spend

43:33

their time. That's one piece of

43:36

it. And I think the scale

43:38

is coming quicker than most people

43:40

want to admit or look at.

43:42

There's a huge opportunity for us

43:44

to redefine what does it mean

43:47

to be human? What does it

43:49

mean to live in communities? The

43:51

idea that I could spend 90

43:53

minutes in community in every single

43:55

one of my meals in the

43:58

way that humanity used to. might

44:00

be possible in a way

44:02

that this current system doesn't

44:05

allow. But I think AI is

44:07

going to change information,

44:09

workforce, family systems,

44:12

remarkably in a very

44:14

short amount of time. And

44:16

where, as we talked about before,

44:19

where do I go to process

44:21

that, make sense of that

44:23

inside of myself and with

44:26

each other? The speed is fast.

44:28

Exactly. It's too fast.

44:30

Yeah, how we, how our nervous systems

44:32

are able to adapt to the

44:35

increase of data speed and the

44:37

speed of the connectivity more and

44:39

more and more, like where is

44:42

there limit, what is the limit,

44:44

what can we allow and we

44:46

adopt naturally, and where is the

44:49

limit of, and where is the

44:51

genetic update needed to, to adopt,

44:53

and where maybe that even is

44:56

not enough. So I think this

44:58

I could decide a very important

45:00

question. So what do you do

45:03

you have any visions or

45:05

ideas how how that could

45:07

be facilitated that change or

45:09

do you see that that

45:11

change will inevitably lead to

45:14

conflict? I

45:16

think it's never going to lead to

45:18

conflict. I don't want to be

45:20

naive that that's not going to

45:22

happen. And the question for us

45:24

is do we create centers to

45:26

manage that conflict or do we

45:28

create centers of recovery and Phoenix

45:30

rising after that? We talk a

45:33

lot about resilience skills of how do

45:35

we survive those conflicts, but also now

45:37

rise skills. How are we going to

45:40

recover after the aftermath? of the dismantling

45:42

of some of these norms of working.

45:44

I think we need to put attention

45:47

into both. The conflict is going to

45:49

just be there. We're really good at

45:51

not addressing the conflict sufficiently. And so

45:54

the question for you and for all

45:56

of us is what are the spaces

45:58

with which we can... and heal

46:00

and reflect. And what's the

46:02

social fabric that we can

46:04

go to in the meantime?

46:07

I'm spending a lot of

46:09

my time just trying to

46:11

figure out how can we

46:13

build social fabric all over

46:15

the place, whether it's literally

46:17

just taking a group of

46:19

people walking in the park

46:21

every Wednesday morning. So there's

46:23

a touchstone with which people

46:25

are just in community together.

46:27

because I think we're going

46:29

to need that social fabric.

46:31

So my short-term strategy, which

46:33

is insufficient, is a massive

46:35

social fabric strategy of trying

46:37

to reinforce that. But that's

46:39

short-sighted. Yeah, it's very powerful

46:42

what you just said. That

46:44

could be another conversation is

46:46

how do we maybe proactively

46:48

work on the... potential conflict

46:50

structures that are going to

46:52

arise? And do we really

46:54

need to go through the

46:56

another trauma cycle? Or do

46:58

we have the power to

47:00

lead that in a way

47:02

from the emergence from the

47:04

same place that we download

47:06

AI and download all kinds

47:08

of new technologies? Can we

47:10

also download the technology for

47:12

like a social technology? to

47:14

mediate the conflict before it

47:17

exists? Or do we need

47:19

to go through the conflict

47:21

and the trauma than to

47:23

learn and rise again? I

47:25

think that's also a very

47:27

powerful conversation. And the question

47:29

is, what do we need

47:31

to, like, what is an

47:33

architecture? You said building a

47:35

social fabric is one aspect.

47:37

Do you think that there

47:39

are more aspects to... addressing

47:42

the conflict before it's it's a

47:44

hot conflict because we we can

47:46

we can see and feel the

47:49

fault lines in the social fabric

47:51

I think so what yeah I

47:53

think there's lots to do proactively

47:55

I think lots of people are

47:58

trying to generate a conversation about

48:00

what is this and how do

48:02

we do it responsibly? How are

48:04

those forces working against those who

48:07

are trying to use it for

48:09

self-gain? It's a race in some

48:11

of those ways. We have people

48:13

across talents and consulting and HR

48:16

trying to figure out how do

48:18

we do this in a humane

48:20

way. I think there's lots of

48:22

good people doing that work. We're

48:25

just not equipped for it. We

48:27

never experienced the scale and substance

48:29

of this. And so it's not

48:31

the same as the internet. It's

48:34

fundamentally different. It's fundamentally different. And

48:36

I think that's the question. When

48:38

is something fundamentally different? What do

48:40

we do? Right? Hopefully, we gather

48:43

with the smartest people we know

48:45

in safe and expansive places to

48:47

look directly at the hard things

48:49

that we don't want to look

48:52

at and do it with love

48:54

and music and support in ways

48:56

that are needed. But I think

48:58

we're just learning how to catch

49:01

up, right? And no one likes

49:03

to feel like they're trying to

49:05

catch up. That's, there's a, it's

49:07

not an easy feeling to feel

49:10

behind. Yeah, what I love when

49:12

I listen to you and then

49:14

I see the time so maybe

49:16

wrap up for today soon and,

49:19

but what I love when I

49:21

listen to you is. Also to

49:23

hear your humility and saying, okay,

49:26

we are all part of it

49:28

when I listen to you, I

49:30

feel that you are part of

49:32

the same exploration. We are all

49:35

part of it. We all puzzle

49:37

pieces of the Chicksaw puzzle. And

49:39

we all carry a certain aspect

49:41

of the form that it represents.

49:44

And I think that's like how

49:46

I hear a lot of passion

49:48

in you to be in the

49:50

process. So I also hear passion,

49:53

I hear space to reflect, I

49:55

hear like humility to also be

49:57

part of the reality. to be

49:59

part of the learning and also

50:02

to be part of the not

50:04

knowing. And I think these are

50:06

all great qualities that I think

50:08

we all can explore in ourselves,

50:11

which am I am I allowing,

50:13

for example, that I don't know

50:15

where we are going, that we

50:17

are, that I need to develop

50:20

a skill of finding out, that's

50:22

an important, I'm not in control

50:24

of the process. And I think

50:26

that in itself is a big

50:29

thing. So that's amazing. And is

50:31

there anything for today, any, any,

50:33

any Last comments that you think

50:35

would round up or conversation or

50:38

anything important that you didn't say

50:40

that we say? I love our

50:42

conversations always. I think the obvious

50:44

thing to say this is always

50:47

easier to do together. And so

50:49

all of us have some deep

50:51

work to do on our inner

50:53

world, on our historical, our communities,

50:56

how much time we're spending in

50:58

our ecosystem, how much time we're

51:00

building social fabric. So just the

51:02

sheer just kind of cheerleading to

51:05

not do it alone. Yes, very

51:07

much so. Thank you, Senator. I'm

51:09

looking forward to more. And thank

51:12

you for this conversation. It's very

51:14

exciting and we will do more.

51:16

Thank you. My pleasure, thank you.

51:18

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51:21

Relation with Thomas Hooble. Stay connected

51:23

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