0:00

This episode of policing

0:02

matters is brought to

0:04

you by Lexipole, the

0:06

experts in policy, training,

0:08

wellness support, and grants

0:10

assistance for first responders

0:13

and government leaders. To

0:15

learn more, visit Lexipole.com,

0:17

that's L-E-X-I-P-O-L-L-D-K- Hey,

0:25

welcome back to policing matters

0:27

on police1.com. I am your

0:29

host Jim Dudley and I've

0:31

got a good one for

0:33

you today. Well, imagine waking

0:36

up to find your home

0:38

invaded. your partner kidnapped, and

0:40

being told that you're under

0:42

surveillance. For Aaron Quinn, this

0:45

wasn't a scene from a

0:47

movie. It was a harrowing

0:49

reality. The story begins on

0:52

March 23, 2015, when Aaron

0:54

Quinn called police to report

0:56

his girlfriend Denise Huskins's abduction.

0:59

He claimed that he had

1:01

been tied up, drugged, and told

1:04

he was under video

1:06

surveillance, but... Police were

1:08

skeptical. The details seemed too

1:10

bizarre, almost like a Hollywood

1:12

script. Well, given the similarities

1:15

to the plot of the

1:17

2014 thriller Gone Girl, investigators

1:19

initially dismissed the case as

1:22

a hoax, but as events

1:24

unfolded, it became clear that

1:26

this was no fabrication. Weeks

1:29

later, Denise Huskins resurfaced, claiming

1:31

that she had been released

1:33

by the suspect. It wasn't

1:36

until a separate investigation by

1:38

another agency revealed new evidence

1:40

that the truth began to

1:43

emerge. And joining us today

1:45

to discuss the investigation and

1:47

the lessons learned is Lieutenant

1:49

Misty Cara Usu from the

1:51

Alameda County Sheriff's Office with

1:54

nearly two decades of experience

1:56

in jail operations,

1:58

patrol, investigation. Lieutenant

2:00

Caruso played a pivotal

2:03

role in untangling the

2:05

truth behind the case.

2:07

Welcome to Policey Matters,

2:09

Lieutenant, Mr. Caruso. Thank you

2:11

Jim for inviting me on your

2:14

show and I'm super excited

2:16

to be talking to you today.

2:18

Great, and we have another guest,

2:20

but we're going to reveal that

2:23

guest after our break, or maybe

2:25

just before the break. So, Lieutenant

2:27

Carusu, you're working as a detective

2:30

in Dublin, small contract city in

2:32

California, when you were assigned this

2:34

case. Tell us about your involvement

2:37

and how you first became involved.

2:39

So it was probably a few

2:41

days prior to me actually

2:44

starting as a detective that

2:46

I got a call from

2:48

the investigation sergeant who said,

2:50

We had a home invasion in Dublin

2:52

and we know where the suspect

2:55

is located. We are going to

2:57

be executing a search warrant in

2:59

South Lake Tahoe where he may

3:01

be. And if I wanted to

3:03

pack a bag and go up

3:05

there with them. And of course

3:07

I said, yes, why would I

3:09

not take that opportunity? So I

3:11

packed a bag. I told my

3:13

husband that I was going up

3:15

there. He said, be safe and

3:17

have fun. Seriously, the

3:19

rest is history. The

3:21

team and I drove

3:23

up to South Lake

3:25

Tahoe and my responsibilities

3:27

were to collect and

3:30

process evidence because I

3:32

was a certified evidence

3:34

technician at that time. And we...

3:36

executed the search warrant. My

3:39

lieutenant before this was his

3:41

last search warrant before he

3:43

retired. He got to key

3:45

the door. We made entry

3:47

and the suspect Matthew Mueller

3:49

was actually located in the

3:51

house and was arrested on

3:54

site without any use of

3:56

force. He didn't want to

3:58

speak to us, but Yeah,

4:00

that's basically how

4:02

I got involved and

4:04

then at the house

4:07

I collected various items

4:09

of evidence and

4:11

something about that house

4:14

like was very creepy

4:16

to me I guess like. to

4:18

like the normal citizen, it

4:20

would look like a hoarder's

4:22

house, but to investigators or

4:24

you know true crime fanatics.

4:26

You would look in these

4:28

boxes that were strewn about

4:30

the house and go, you

4:32

know, what's all this masks?

4:35

What are these key masks

4:37

for? What are these ropes

4:39

for? And then so you

4:41

start thinking about that not

4:43

only as like an officer,

4:45

but something just doesn't

4:47

seem right, especially given

4:49

the circumstances of him

4:51

committing the home invasion in the

4:53

city of Dublin, all of these

4:56

were basically fruits of a crime.

4:58

So we collected as much stuff

5:00

as we could at the house,

5:02

and then we went over to

5:04

a tow yard because we were

5:06

informed that Eldorado County Sheriff's

5:08

Office located a stolen white

5:11

Mustang. in the nearby area

5:13

of Matthew Moller's house. And

5:16

on the driver's side floorboard

5:18

was his ID. So he

5:20

had his California driver's license,

5:23

left it in the

5:25

car, and we went over

5:28

there, executed the search

5:30

warrant on the car, found

5:32

a lot of items of

5:34

evidence. One specifically that has

5:37

made this case huge

5:39

was Inside of a nylon belt,

5:41

there was a pouch and in that

5:43

pouch, I pulled out a pair

5:45

of goggles that had been blacked

5:48

out with tape and duct

5:50

tape. And attached to it

5:52

was a single strand of

5:54

blonde hair. And I thought, oh

5:56

my God, like, our victims

5:58

didn't have blonde. here so let

6:00

me stop you right there this

6:02

is a good place to stop

6:05

because to our listeners and

6:07

our viewers I don't want them

6:09

to be confused that you were

6:11

up there on the case that

6:13

I initially described right the the

6:15

kidnapping and the guy tied up

6:18

and all that you were there on

6:20

a you know it's a home invasion

6:22

but it's it was a lower

6:24

level home, if that's possible,

6:27

a lower level home invasion,

6:29

not with a kidnapping, but

6:31

some similarity, but not,

6:34

I mean, you're driving up

6:36

nearly three hours from Dublin

6:38

to South Lake Tahoe. You're not

6:41

thinking about the gone, I

6:43

hate saying it, but the

6:45

gone girl kidnapping. You're just

6:47

like, okay, it's a attempted

6:49

home invasion. What are you

6:51

guys talking about in the

6:53

car? Three hours. learning about

6:56

the suspect. And you're right,

6:58

I didn't even think about

7:00

the Vallejo case at that

7:02

time because so many months

7:04

had passed. But we were

7:06

just talking about who our

7:08

suspect was. We knew that

7:10

he was a marine. We

7:12

knew that he was an

7:14

ex-law who studied immigration law in

7:16

the Bay Area. Basically just

7:19

talked about our operations planning

7:21

how we were going to

7:23

execute the search warrant, make

7:26

contact with the Eldorado County

7:28

Sheriff's office and just plan how

7:30

we were going to navigate this

7:33

whole entire process. But yeah,

7:35

the reason why we found

7:37

all of that information was

7:39

because during our home invasion,

7:41

Matthew Mueller left his cell

7:43

phone. And so he he was

7:46

so meticulous. organized that he

7:48

had placed all of his items that

7:50

he was going to use to tie

7:53

up his victims out the duct tape,

7:55

the zip ties, and his cell phone.

7:57

And he was not expecting

8:00

our elderly male victim to

8:02

fight back. And so he did.

8:04

The elderly victim yelled at his

8:06

wife to go get the gun.

8:09

Knowing that she didn't have

8:11

a gun, she knew what that

8:13

meant. So she grabbed her cell

8:15

phone, ran into the bathroom and

8:18

called 911. So our dispatcher was

8:20

actually talking to his wife. At

8:22

the same time he was fighting

8:25

Matthew molar. all the way

8:27

down and outside and out

8:29

of the house. And Matthew

8:31

Mueller drives away. And this is

8:33

prior to me getting

8:35

involved. Our investigations teams

8:37

locate or realize who

8:39

the phone belonged to. And

8:42

that was Matthew. So it

8:44

was pure insanity. Had no

8:46

idea about the Vallejo kidnapping

8:48

case at that time. I was

8:51

just still trying to process the

8:53

fact that I was getting to go

8:55

up to South Lake Tahoe to execute

8:57

a search warrant. Yeah, so you

8:59

get up there, you get the stolen

9:01

car, you find all this evidence. Again,

9:04

the genius left his cell phone at

9:06

one location. Now he leaves his ID

9:08

at the other and you found these

9:10

goggles and the hair. So why was

9:13

the hair important? Didn't match any of

9:15

your suspects, your victims. They didn't

9:17

imagine any of my victims, but it

9:19

also told me that this wasn't like,

9:22

who did the hair belong to? Was

9:24

it this could not have been his

9:26

first home invasion? And it just

9:28

seemed like it just was out of

9:30

the hooded hair belong to you.

9:32

We had another victim. This was

9:35

not his first case based off

9:37

of the evidence that we located.

9:39

He seemed pretty sophisticated in his

9:42

planning and Why was he why did

9:44

he have a nylon military style

9:46

belt with a pair of goggles

9:48

located in a pouch did not

9:50

make any sense to me because

9:52

not an average person would do

9:54

that. So I was very concerned.

9:56

And our team was that we

9:58

still had a and we didn't know

10:01

she was alive or dead at that

10:03

time. So it was very important for

10:05

me to do the follow-up on

10:07

the evidence, but also to locate

10:10

who that hair belonged to. Yeah,

10:12

and ultimately you did, and

10:14

then you discovered the involvement

10:16

in the Vallejo case. Now

10:18

we get into the sticky

10:20

wicket where it's hard to

10:22

criticize even somebody within your

10:25

own agency, much less somebody

10:27

from outside another agency. and

10:29

how they conducted their investigation.

10:32

And you heard at the

10:34

introduction, they thought it was

10:37

a hoax. They went to

10:39

the media and said it

10:42

was a hoax. And in

10:44

reality, it happened. And

10:46

through that hair connection,

10:49

you connected the homicide

10:51

or the homicide. the

10:53

kidnapping, sexual assault, and everything

10:55

else that happened in that home

10:58

invasion in Vallejo. What kind of

11:00

pushback did you get anybody from

11:03

your own agency saying, yeah, maybe

11:05

we should, you know, keep this

11:07

on the QT? Did somebody from

11:10

the other agency criticize

11:12

you or ask you not to

11:14

reveal anything? How'd that go? Um,

11:16

I wouldn't call it pushback.

11:18

I would call it more hurdles

11:20

that you have to jump through.

11:23

Um, initially, people like the people

11:25

I contacted, they just said,

11:27

oh, like, for instance,

11:29

Bileo PD told me that

11:31

they were no longer working the

11:34

case that it was the FBI.

11:36

And so then when I contacted

11:38

the FBI, I told them exactly

11:41

what we had, you know, that

11:43

Matthew Miller was in custody. So

11:45

it was more hurdles than anything

11:48

in trying to get a hold

11:50

of people and have them return

11:52

my phone calls Obviously,

11:55

like I'm a little bit pushy

11:57

when it comes to answering the

11:59

call like just pick up the phone.

12:01

I have been told in my career

12:04

that I do the most, but if

12:06

I didn't do the most, then

12:08

who was gonna do it, right?

12:10

Like I know that, I know

12:12

my investigations team at Dublin was

12:15

working on the Dublin case, and

12:17

my job was ultimately just to

12:19

do the follow up on the

12:22

evidence. So they were, they had

12:24

their guy in custody, so it was

12:26

just, I don't want to, like

12:28

I said hurdles. And it

12:30

happens in law enforcement,

12:32

but you just have

12:34

to continue to push through

12:37

those hurdles or jump over

12:39

them if you are a

12:41

track and filled person. Sure.

12:43

Yeah, so the hair did

12:45

turn out to belong to

12:47

Denise Huskins. You made a great

12:50

case. All the evidence was brought

12:52

forward successful prosecution. The suspect

12:54

Matthew Mueller was successfully convicted

12:57

of kidnapping and other crimes

12:59

and was sentenced to over

13:01

three decades in federal prison

13:03

after pleading guilty. Denise Huskins

13:06

and Aaron Quinn married began

13:08

to get their life back

13:10

together, but just last year

13:12

in 2024, another bizarre turn

13:15

in the case appeared. And

13:17

now I'm going to introduce

13:19

Seaside Chief Nick Borges to

13:21

talk about the latest revelations,

13:23

that's a teaser, because first I'm

13:25

going to ask to take a break

13:28

and hear from our sponsor. Lexipole empowers

13:30

first responders and public

13:32

servants to best meet

13:34

the needs of their residents

13:37

safely and responsibly. serving

13:39

more than 2 million public

13:41

safety and government professionals in

13:44

over 8,000 agencies and municipalities.

13:46

Lexipole offers a range of

13:49

solutions that includes policies, training,

13:51

behavioral health resources, news

13:53

and analysis, and grant assistance

13:56

services for law enforcement, fire

13:58

and rescue, EMS.

14:01

local government and

14:03

other agencies dedicated to public safety.

14:05

Oh, an hour and a half

14:07

south of Bileo, south of Dublin,

14:10

approximately? That's correct, yes. Well, welcome

14:12

to the show. Thanks for coming

14:14

on. Chief Borges has been with

14:16

the department for 22 years. He

14:18

served as a field training officer,

14:20

detective, corporate sergeant, commander, deputy chief

14:23

and SWAT commander. And he is

14:25

also a graduate of the FBI

14:27

National Academy, session 277. He'll share

14:29

the insights into the recent developments

14:31

linking the suspect Matthew Mueller to

14:33

other earlier crimes. Welcome Chief Borges.

14:35

Thank you so much. Appreciate you

14:38

having me. Yeah, great to, you

14:40

know, I've seen news clippings, I've

14:42

seen in the media talking about

14:44

the case. Now we've explored the

14:46

initial investigation from Vallejo. We heard

14:48

about that attempted home invasion in

14:51

Dublin. Let's fast forward to the

14:53

recent revelations about Mueller's earlier crimes.

14:55

Chief Borges, your department played a

14:57

key role in uncovering this new

14:59

information. Can you walk us through

15:01

the events and how they were

15:04

discovered? Absolutely. Let me just start

15:06

off by emphasizing two key points

15:08

that are important to, to I

15:10

know Misty and myself. Number one

15:12

is, a lot of people have

15:14

said there are similarities in the

15:17

movie Gone Girl and the case

15:19

involving Denise and Aaron Quinn, and

15:21

I just firmly disagree. I think

15:23

I've seen that movie. The only

15:25

similarity there is the fact that

15:27

there's a blonde actress and Denise's

15:29

blonde. Outside of that, it's really

15:32

just fiction. There's no, in my

15:34

opinion, similarities at all. And that's

15:36

why I refer to it and

15:38

as Misty and many others as

15:40

the American nightmare, because that's truthfully

15:42

what it is. And just to

15:45

emphasize what you started off here

15:47

on this program, I just don't

15:49

want to take away the light

15:51

from Misty's work and effort in

15:53

doing this is heroic. incredibly important

15:55

to this case. If we're not

15:58

for Misty, none of this would

16:00

be happening. Who knows where Denise

16:02

and Aaron would be today. So

16:04

I always like to emphasize those

16:06

two points. And then I'll kind

16:08

of jump right into how seaside

16:11

got involved and really credit the

16:13

people who deserve the credit. But

16:15

essentially, this is a case I've

16:17

been following from afar. Um, I'm

16:19

not part of the investigation, but

16:21

I've been following this case since

16:24

I was a sergeant back in

16:26

2015. And there were some things

16:28

that always bothered me. And when

16:30

I was detective, as you mentioned,

16:32

and by the time I was

16:34

a sergeant in this case came

16:36

out when there was a press

16:39

release or press conference rather, where

16:41

the lieutenant talked about, um, he

16:43

never said the word hoax, but

16:45

he insinuated that this was a

16:47

stage orchestrated event, demanded that they

16:49

apologize the In my mind, I

16:52

said that there's got to be

16:54

a smoking gun because in law

16:56

enforcement, it's very unlikely that police

16:58

are going to come before a

17:00

public conference, let alone a national

17:02

stage and say something like that,

17:05

unless there's a smoking gun. And

17:07

also in law enforcement, and Misty

17:09

can back me on this, when

17:11

we do have a smoking gun,

17:13

we have a smoking gun, we

17:15

have a smoking gun. And I

17:18

told my team at the time,

17:20

I remember saying we're going to

17:22

know what that is in about

17:24

24 hours. And that was almost.

17:26

10 years ago, I'm still waiting

17:28

for that smoking gun. I'm not

17:30

waiting, but you know what I

17:33

mean? Didn't happen. So I knew

17:35

within a day the fact that

17:37

that had not been made public

17:39

of what this evidence was that

17:41

involved them, something was wrong. And

17:43

then later on, Denise and Aaron

17:46

did a press conference with their

17:48

attorneys. You can just go back

17:50

and watch that and it's unmistakable.

17:52

Their body language, their demeanors, their

17:54

energy. I knew at that moment,

17:56

whatever they're saying is the truth.

17:59

ever since 2015. So I've seen

18:01

documentaries on, I think, 2020 and

18:03

dateline. Again, these are cases that

18:05

I follow regularly. I watch these

18:07

shows every week. And when this

18:09

came out on Netflix, I didn't

18:12

recognize the name, but as soon

18:14

as the story began, I knew

18:16

exactly which cases was. And because

18:18

I have three children, my youngest

18:20

is four, it took me two

18:22

weeks to watch a documentary when

18:25

it should have probably taken me

18:27

maybe one city. But after about

18:29

two weeks of getting through all

18:31

this this deep dive really in

18:33

the documentary I just felt now

18:35

being a police chief that I

18:37

was obligated and it more importantly

18:40

as a human being that's in

18:42

law enforcement and a chief to

18:44

reach out at early to try

18:46

to reach out and I really

18:48

expected no response from Denise or

18:50

Aaron I just wanted to let

18:53

them know that I've always believed

18:55

them that I support them there's

18:57

others in law enforcement that I

18:59

know support them And kind of

19:01

just leave it at that. And

19:03

I didn't hear back from them

19:06

for it was probably about a

19:08

week or so. And then Denise

19:10

responded first. And she was just

19:12

so kind and welcoming and thankful.

19:14

I was surprised. I really, I

19:16

was expecting, you know, she's a

19:19

better person than me as is

19:21

Aaron. I don't know that I

19:23

would have responded. But that really

19:25

started the conversation of us having

19:27

a training session. There's more to

19:29

learn from law enforcement. We really.

19:31

not just the general public, but

19:34

police. We have to learn from

19:36

this and be better. And that

19:38

led into a training session. And

19:40

that's where I got the ability

19:42

to meet Misty and then the

19:44

elder auto DA heard about it

19:47

and he attended and he and

19:49

I had a conversation ahead of

19:51

time about how passionate he is

19:53

about making investigations in particular interviews

19:55

and interrogations better because there's so

19:57

many false confessions and so on.

20:00

And that really led to a

20:02

really widespread there was 300 plus

20:04

law enforcement officials and if you

20:06

listened to Denise and Aaron to

20:08

this day. In their book, in

20:10

the series, when they do public

20:13

speaking, they always talk about more

20:15

than one suspect. They don't ever

20:17

refer to it as just molar

20:19

alone. They talk about kidnappers and

20:21

they. So during lunch, we struck

20:23

up a conversation and they really

20:25

got into detail with some of

20:28

their concerns about others being involved

20:30

and how they really didn't know

20:32

where to turn because they're not

20:34

in law enforcement. And I just

20:36

kind of offered my help. And

20:38

then after that, working with Misty

20:41

and Denise and Denise and primarily

20:43

was us. talking and kind of

20:45

bouncing things off each other. What's

20:47

the best approach going to visit

20:49

him or trying to pursue other

20:51

avenues? It was decided that with

20:54

the permission of Denise and Aaron

20:56

that I would write some letters

20:58

and working with Misty, Denise and

21:00

Aaron, having them review what was

21:02

going on, giving good direction. I

21:04

credit them. I feel like I'm

21:07

just kind of a middle man

21:09

just trying to help out. And

21:11

I just want to point out

21:13

one thing is someone asked me

21:15

this recently they said well I

21:17

don't I just don't understand how

21:20

seaside is involved it's not your

21:22

jurisdiction and this is somebody in

21:24

law enforcement mind you and my

21:26

response is very simple. I genuinely

21:28

said sorry to them when I

21:30

met them about what they went

21:32

through from policing. Sorry is is

21:35

nice I even say it's cute

21:37

but without action it's meaningless and.

21:39

And I'm a very loyal, very

21:41

hardworking person just like Misty. So

21:43

when I say I'm here to

21:45

help, I'll do anything I can.

21:48

And in this case, being someone

21:50

who's not, who doesn't have jurisdiction,

21:52

who can't directly invest. I could

21:54

certainly reach out and flip rocks

21:56

and try and we did. So

21:58

that happened. I started sending letters

22:01

around April of last year, about

22:03

a month after I met the

22:05

team. And within a couple of

22:07

weeks, I got my first response

22:09

and he commented and really my

22:11

mission wasn't to find out everything

22:14

he did in other cases, even

22:16

though everyone that has seen his

22:18

behavior understands that he's likely involved

22:20

in many things and we're learning

22:22

more. But it was really to

22:24

see if he'd be willing to

22:26

discuss with Denise and Aaron through

22:29

me whether or not he acted

22:31

alone or with others because my

22:33

view is strong. Anyone and everyone,

22:35

not just with Denise and Aaron,

22:37

anyone and everyone that engages in

22:39

this type of violent criminal behavior

22:42

should be accountable. I don't care

22:44

if they're the person who dropped

22:46

somebody off somewhere, if they're the

22:48

person that just high five the

22:50

person after they committed the crime.

22:52

everyone that committed a crime engaged

22:55

in their case and others must

22:57

be held criminally accountable. And that

22:59

was my mission. And he opened

23:01

up and he again I don't

23:03

know if I believe him fully

23:05

but he he reached out saying

23:08

he acted alone. And in my

23:10

opinion he was he was portraying

23:12

himself as being vulnerable and credible

23:14

by exposing himself to other crimes

23:16

he had committed that he had

23:18

not been convicted or charged with

23:21

or charged with. And that was

23:23

his way of telling me I'm

23:25

being honest about acting alone in

23:27

their case and to prove that

23:29

to you. Here's these other cases

23:31

that I was involved with and

23:33

and he opened up about the

23:36

in great detail about the two

23:38

Santa Clara cases from 2009. One

23:40

is in Mountain View and the

23:42

other is in in Palo Alto.

23:44

Those were talked about in the

23:46

documentary of American nightmare, but something

23:49

that came out of that he

23:51

references it. In one of the

23:53

letters he tells me Misty would

23:55

know about this, which we talked

23:57

and nobody knew about this because

23:59

it was never reported, but

24:02

two weeks after he released Denise,

24:04

two weeks, this monster goes

24:06

into an unincorporated

24:08

area of San Ramone in Contra

24:11

Costa County, and essentially does

24:13

a home invasion, kidnaps

24:15

three people, forces one of

24:17

the people to go to a bank and

24:19

get money for him. And they

24:22

never report it because he's saying

24:24

some of the same things about he's

24:26

involved in a crew and he'll harm

24:28

them. you can have them killed and

24:30

all these other things that he said.

24:33

So I credit really my communication

24:35

with Matthew Mueller has been

24:37

through letters and those communications continue

24:39

today. But Vern Pearson and the

24:41

FBI Vern Pearson is the Eldorado

24:44

District Attorney who has jurisdiction where

24:46

Denise was held captive for two

24:48

days in 2015. He has really

24:51

taken a lead with the FBI's

24:53

cooperation in a lot of these

24:55

investigations and some of it. ties

24:58

into his jurisdictions and a lot

25:00

of it is tying into outside

25:02

jurisdictions. So he has been instrumental

25:04

in communicating information that he has

25:07

received because he actually went to

25:09

the prison with the FBI and

25:11

interviewed Mueller as did Santa Clara

25:13

County officials. So they've had they

25:16

have a lot of information and

25:18

they're doing the investigations. But

25:20

it's just it's we talked a little

25:22

bit about earlier about culture. We talked

25:24

a little bit about challenges and law

25:26

enforcement. And as a police chief, I don't

25:29

want to just single out

25:31

an organization because I know

25:33

how sensitive police departments and

25:35

organizations get. But I'll speak

25:37

as a law enforcement official

25:40

and someone who's made plenty

25:42

of mistakes in my career as a

25:44

leader, we get it wrong sometimes

25:46

sometimes really wrong. And in this

25:48

case, law enforcement, something that I

25:50

am part of got it wrong. The right

25:52

thing for us to do now as a

25:55

community of law enforcement is to

25:57

Say just that we got it

25:59

wrong we're going to learn from this.

26:01

We're going to be better. We can't let

26:03

this happen to anyone else. And

26:06

because of that, we're going to to

26:08

train. We're going to analyze what we did,

26:10

and we're going to give back and try

26:12

to help and learn all these lessons

26:14

and and take action. And what

26:16

you're seeing right now is happening

26:18

with the with the collaboration of

26:21

Misty, myself, Vern Pearson with the

26:23

DA's office and and and the heroes

26:25

in the case. Denise and Denise

26:27

and Aaron. Denise and Aaron. If they

26:29

were not gung-ho about trying to

26:31

find out more, really none of this

26:34

would have happened. They would have

26:36

come to a training seminar. I

26:38

would have offered them the best

26:40

training opportunity I can for the

26:43

attendees and them treating them with

26:45

respect. But because they were

26:47

persistent, because they opened up to

26:49

me, because I'm very honored, because

26:52

they trusted me. you know besides Misty

26:54

outside of Misty I don't

26:56

know if they trusted anyone

26:58

in law enforcement maybe maybe

27:00

Aaron's brother I'm sure sure of

27:03

that but I don't know that they

27:05

would trust anyone else outside of that

27:07

small circle so yeah they trusted

27:09

me excuse me chief is

27:12

there any indication that there's

27:14

a continuing investigation

27:16

has there ever been a

27:18

third-person DNA recovered from scenes

27:20

is there anything That

27:22

we can put our hang our hats on

27:25

to say there was definitely a third party

27:27

involved No, that that's still being looked

27:29

at and that's that's a big part of

27:31

it is that there's no proof either

27:33

way that he acted alone or acted with

27:35

others Okay, we do know he said he's

27:38

acted with others We do know he did

27:40

things that are consistent with him acting

27:42

with with others and most importantly

27:44

Denise and Aaron saw things and heard

27:47

things that would indicate there is a

27:49

strong possibility and likelihood that there are

27:51

others. And if there are, they need to

27:53

be tracked down and held responsible or

27:56

turn themselves in. So I would imagine

27:58

that Mountain View because of the

28:00

time delay that they're they're

28:02

treating these cases the mountain

28:04

view in the Palo Alto

28:07

case as cold cases recovering

28:09

things from the those initial

28:11

reports and going backwards or

28:13

forwards till now. The suspect

28:15

Matthew Mueller is not your

28:17

typical offender reports suggest and

28:20

I read in that that

28:22

article from seaside that he

28:24

was planning crimes as early

28:26

as 16 years old. Chief

28:28

Borges, can you share anything

28:30

that we've uncovered from

28:32

his background that early age?

28:34

Well, very clearly a lot of

28:37

people have said he suffers from

28:39

mental illness and that perhaps his

28:41

time in the Marines is a

28:44

result of his acting out and

28:46

so forth, but that's easily dispelled

28:48

when we learn. And again, this

28:51

is just what we know. It could

28:53

be more, but in 1993... And I

28:55

won't get into too much detail because

28:57

I know this is still under investigation

28:59

from a different jurisdiction,

29:03

but we do know in 1993 that he

29:05

did a similar attack on a couple

29:07

when he was only 16 years old.

29:09

This long before he went to the

29:11

Marine Corps and as I've heard Aaron

29:14

say publicly, he was in the band

29:16

at the Marine Corps. I don't know that

29:18

he was in war, but I know he was

29:20

in the band. So he was doing

29:22

things long before he was ever

29:25

a marine and whether or

29:27

not there's mental illness. We know

29:29

that he is dangerous. We know

29:31

that he is calculated. And in

29:33

my strong opinion, this man is

29:35

a threat to society and

29:38

he's somebody that can never ever

29:40

be released to the streets. He's

29:42

a threat. Absolutely. And you

29:45

know, Chief, I want to echo

29:47

your sentiments that I don't think

29:49

any of this would have been

29:51

revealed if not for the tenacity

29:54

and the perseverance from our own,

29:56

Mr. Karusu, who went into the

29:58

investigation with open... I mean,

30:00

one hair sample caught her

30:02

eye. I don't know that, you know,

30:05

out of 100 people, how many

30:07

people would have thought to say,

30:09

wow, this isn't from our victim

30:12

and how can we, you know,

30:14

trace this to some other victims.

30:17

Lieutenant Kirus, who you

30:19

went in there with

30:21

open eyes, even with

30:23

skepticism, was high from.

30:25

you know, other agencies, human

30:28

nature often leads us to

30:30

draw conclusions. I think

30:32

we err on the other side

30:34

of this, right, that we,

30:36

we sometimes believe, you know,

30:38

drug dealers who say they're

30:41

the innocent victims of robbery

30:43

or, or other cases like

30:45

that. And, you know, sometimes,

30:47

okay, well, the jokes on

30:49

us. In this case, you...

30:51

You took everything at face

30:53

value, you investigated it, you

30:55

processed. How can law enforcement

30:58

officers guard against that tendency

31:00

to sort of, you know, they were

31:02

accused in the OJ trial of the

31:05

rush to judgment, right? That was a

31:07

meme at that time. How do we

31:09

avoid that? I would say it

31:11

starts with the basic academy

31:14

and teaching them about confirmation

31:16

bias, about being objective when

31:18

you are. involved in

31:21

any interaction with community

31:23

members victims and even

31:26

suspects. Our job is

31:28

not to judge our job

31:30

is to collect and present

31:32

evidence and I think we

31:35

need to consistently remind ourselves

31:37

through good effective leadership and

31:39

a positive culture that we

31:42

just need those reminders.

31:44

It's so important. Anybody

31:46

can spiral down the

31:48

cynicism. rabbit hole, but

31:50

to be effective and

31:53

not let everyday, you

31:55

know, negative sides of

31:57

society get the better of

31:59

you. somebody or yourself

32:01

has to inter internally

32:04

reflect consistently. And always

32:06

be open minded, always

32:08

be open hearted and

32:10

remember that we're working

32:12

with humans. This is,

32:14

this is a really,

32:16

this is a human

32:18

profession. So we cannot

32:20

allow. toxicity to overrun

32:23

us, especially in law enforcement

32:25

culture. So it starts with

32:27

the basic academy with lots

32:30

of training, a lot of dialogue,

32:32

a lot of proactivity with

32:34

community engagement, and just being

32:37

open and and definitely the

32:39

self reflection because I'm not

32:42

perfect like Nick's not perfect.

32:44

There have been instances where

32:46

I have felt disgruntled or

32:49

you know, whatever but really

32:51

the ultimate reason why we do

32:53

what we do is to protect

32:56

and serve and provide to our

32:58

communities. So I always tell everybody

33:00

that I work with we wear

33:03

a badge with pride and purpose.

33:05

Don't ever forget that is a

33:07

gift, right? We are lucky that

33:09

we jumped that six foot fence

33:11

and took that oath and can

33:14

provide these services to our communities.

33:16

And Never forget that. I feel

33:19

like we tend to forget it

33:21

over the years. So training culture

33:23

and never forget your purpose. Those

33:26

are the three things that I

33:28

live by right now. Yeah, and

33:30

training's gotten better. We're

33:33

hearing more from advocates

33:35

about trauma informed victim

33:38

informed interviewing techniques, listening

33:40

active listening, things like

33:42

that. But Chief Borges, I

33:44

want to ask you

33:46

about supervision. So Misty says,

33:49

hey, be accountable for yourself,

33:51

be open-minded, you know, use

33:54

the training, follow the training,

33:56

but at some point, you

33:58

know, we're in our own. echo chamber

34:00

here in ourselves talk. At

34:03

what points should supervision come

34:05

in as with fresh eyes,

34:07

take a look at the

34:09

chronological order of investigation

34:11

and say, you know what, we might

34:13

want to take another look at

34:15

this? Yeah, I think Missy just said

34:18

it very well and her organization

34:21

did a very good job in

34:23

the Dublin case. I've had the

34:25

privilege of reviewing that case and

34:27

they did a very good job.

34:29

But here's the missing piece. You

34:32

have Misty in here, who is

34:34

like a doghound trailing a lead.

34:36

And I didn't sense that there

34:38

was a lot of support for her

34:40

doing that. In my opinion, I

34:42

haven't talked to her in depth

34:44

about this, but in my opinion, it's

34:46

like she was a lone wolf

34:48

out trying to piece together

34:50

something that she knew based on

34:53

her own life experience, training,

34:55

instincts, something, there was

34:57

more to this. And supervisors.

34:59

need to celebrate the misdies

35:01

within your organization. It's very

35:03

easy to isolate the misdies

35:05

in your organization because they

35:08

stand out because they perform very

35:10

well. Those who just perform at

35:12

the basic level and just get

35:14

by and collect the retirement, that's

35:16

easy. Anyone can do that. My

35:18

kids can do that. But the

35:21

misdies within your organization need to

35:23

be celebrated. They need to be

35:25

supported. And when they're onto

35:27

something, they need to be protected.

35:29

policing unless you let your people

35:31

really pursue things that they are

35:34

they know are there. And that's

35:36

really basic being a human

35:38

being a good leader and support

35:40

your people and let them do what

35:43

they got to do. Absolutely. Well,

35:45

listen, I appreciate your time. The

35:47

both of you busy schedules, uh,

35:49

chief down there in seaside. Lieutenant

35:52

Caruso there at Alameda and the

35:54

expanse that you have over there

35:56

on the east side of the

35:58

bay. Thank you. much for sharing

36:01

your expertise, your reflections on

36:03

this extraordinary case that just

36:05

the ripple effects are just

36:08

astounding. I would imagine Mueller

36:10

is going to be looking

36:12

at decades on top of

36:14

decades in prison once these

36:17

other cases come to final

36:19

fruition. Today's conversation highlights the

36:21

importance of persistence, collaboration, investigations.

36:23

Misty, I know you've been

36:26

celebrated. I talked to the

36:28

president of Nali. She can't

36:30

wait to meet you. And

36:32

I know you are a

36:35

mentor over there in Alameda

36:37

for all of the Alameda

36:39

County sheriffs, but especially a

36:41

mentor to the young women

36:44

joining the ranks there. So

36:46

good for you. Thanks so

36:48

much for taking time today.

36:50

Thank you. Thank you. All

36:53

right. Yeah. I mean, this

36:55

kind of perseverance really paid

36:57

off. Anytime you get a

36:59

case, there is that natural

37:02

tendency to drift to that,

37:04

you know, Occam's razor, that

37:06

straight line, if it's this,

37:08

it must be this. But

37:11

we've got to be open

37:13

to any possibility. And I

37:15

hope you're all doing that.

37:17

So drop me a line

37:20

and let me know what

37:22

you're thinking. Let me know

37:24

what you think about today's

37:26

guess and the topic and

37:29

what were the questions that

37:31

I didn't ask that you're

37:33

dying to know. Drop me

37:35

a line at policing matters

37:38

at police one.com. That's policing

37:40

matters at police one.com. And

37:42

thanks for listening. Thanks for

37:44

watching. And hey, stay safe.

37:47

Hope to talk to you

37:49

again real soon. So,