0:00

This podcast is supported by Google.

0:05

Hey, it's Martine. So before

0:07

we start today's show, we have

0:09

a big announcement that we need to share.

0:12

I am here with Alaye Azadi.

0:14

And Alaye, why don't you tell people

0:16

what the news is? I am now officially

0:19

a co host of post reports.

0:22

I am so excited.

0:26

We are so excited to so

0:28

Alaye is going to be co hosting post

0:31

reports. You will be hearing

0:33

her voice just like you have been for

0:35

the last few months, but she's officially on our

0:37

team and officially one of the voices

0:39

on our show.

0:40

And that is really great news

0:42

for listeners because people

0:44

who've heard of La Jolla know that she has such

0:46

warmth, she's so funny, she's so curious,

0:48

she's smart about the way that she approaches questions

0:51

and interviews and stories. And it's

0:53

also big deal for us because that means that

0:55

we can do more stories, be more ambitious.

0:59

and tell the kind of journalism that

1:01

we aspire to tell. I mean, Martin,

1:03

what you and everyone else on the show have

1:05

done for the past several years has been

1:07

so incredible. So I

1:09

just feel honored that I get to be part

1:11

of it now in a official capacity

1:14

and contribute to, like you said,

1:16

expanding the type of storytelling that we

1:18

do so that we can bring listeners

1:21

more reported features, deeper stories

1:24

that can hear elsewhere and also be able

1:26

to respond really quickly to the news

1:28

and accompany people through the biggest moments

1:31

of the day, of the week, I'm

1:33

just very excited to be here to do it. And

1:36

I'm also still going to be writing media

1:38

stories, so look for me there

1:40

too.

1:41

So I hear you have been guest hosting the show

1:43

for a few months now. And over

1:45

the course of that time, I have gotten to know

1:47

you a lot better. but

1:49

I would love for listeners to hear a little bit

1:52

more about who you are and what

1:54

kinda brought you to this moment, what

1:56

your professional experiences, what you've been

1:58

covering and why this is something you

1:59

wanted to do?

2:01

I've been a journalist for many

2:03

years now. I've written and covered

2:05

many things during my time as as

2:07

a reporter. I've covered Congress and

2:09

National Politics. I've also covered

2:12

local news, breaking news, pop

2:14

culture, comedy, race

2:17

demographics. I just have such

2:19

an innate curiosity about

2:21

almost everything in the world. So

2:23

so I'm really excited to be able to bring that curiosity

2:25

capacity here. And and I

2:27

also, you know, outside of work, I have

2:29

a background in performing in comedy,

2:32

and so stand up. She does

2:34

stand up people. I'm so excited.

2:35

You haven't been doing stand up for a while because

2:37

of the pandemic, but like -- Right. -- so

2:39

excited to go see you

2:41

And I promise not to turn this

2:43

host chair into the stand in

2:46

for for a comedy show. I mean,

2:48

don't know. I feel like that

2:50

that is a thing we could do.

2:52

Yeah. I'm excited. I'm and

2:54

I'm honored to to be joining you

2:56

in the in the whole crew here who

2:58

have done such incredible work for

3:01

several years on the show

3:03

and to be part of that future.

3:05

In a while, hey, do you know

3:07

that we are coming up on our one

3:09

thousandth episode

3:10

of post reports? Speaking

3:12

of things that are very humbling, So

3:16

here is to the next one thousand

3:18

with Alaye on the team.

3:21

Okay. Here here. Gear

3:24

sedation. Here we go.

3:28

The game has changed The whole

3:30

complexion of the NFL has changed.

3:33

People watching it now has changed.

3:35

There are more people watching it now than ever

3:37

before and there's more diversity

3:40

in watching it every four. And you know what? The

3:42

people that are watching that are saying the same

3:44

thing that you're saying. Why is this? Why

3:46

is that? It starts with the ownership. It

3:48

starts up front.

3:50

Football is the most watched sport in

3:52

the US.

3:53

And NFL is one of the most influential

3:55

organizations in the country. But

3:57

despite the fact that the majority of NFL

3:59

players are black, very few

4:02

black men make it to be head coach.

4:04

Since nineteen eighty nine, there have been almost

4:06

two hundred head coaches in the league,

4:09

and only twenty five of them have been black.

4:11

Got

4:14

to the Pittsburgh Steelers as a rookie.

4:16

We're winning Super Bowls. No

4:19

African American coaches on on the staff.

4:21

I never had a black coach coach

4:23

me at any level. I'm talking high

4:25

school college in Profitable. Any minority

4:28

coach understands that

4:30

they carry the weight of not just the job

4:32

itself, but you also carry the weight of your

4:34

brothers

4:35

who have aspirations of becoming head coaches.

4:38

Sixteen black head

4:39

coaches recently spoke with the Washington

4:41

Post about their experiences in

4:43

the league.

4:44

I don't think NFL is

4:46

exempt from the rest of the world. You know,

4:49

you look at the Fortune five hundred companies, how many

4:51

minority CEOs do they have? You know, you know,

4:53

you look at other industries and and and

4:55

I guarantee you is is similar. This is

4:57

not an inability issue. You know, this

4:59

is society.

5:01

Reporters at the post set out to document

5:03

how black coaches have been consistently

5:05

sidelined by the NFL. We

5:07

wanted to make sure that these coaches were seen

5:10

and that they were seen as people who

5:12

have ambitions and aspirations and

5:14

hopes and dreams. This is Michael

5:16

Lee, sports enterprise reporter for the post.

5:19

then that there's a leak and there's

5:21

a system here that has an eye on these

5:23

opportunities. For the past few months,

5:26

Michael has been working with columnist Jerry

5:28

Brewer and an investigative team at the

5:30

post.

5:31

They have tried to figure out what's been

5:33

at the root of this problem. And

5:35

for Jerry, one thing was clear.

5:38

often

5:39

in matters such as this, people

5:42

are looking for overt racist

5:45

instead of looking at the racism and

5:48

the roots of it and the cause of it

5:50

and how when you're mindless

5:53

about solving it, nothing gets

5:55

fixed. The problem with the NFL

5:58

is it's soil. From

6:01

the newsroom of the Washington Post, This

6:04

is post reports. I'm Martine

6:06

Powers. It's Monday, September

6:08

twenty sixth. Today, we

6:10

talk about why black coaches continue

6:12

to be denied

6:13

candidates despite years

6:15

of attention on this issue. And

6:17

why the problem is actually getting worse?

6:20

And what does work to make a difference?

6:26

In

6:26

two thousand and two for temporary period,

6:28

Herman Edwards was the only Blackhead

6:31

coach in the NFL. and

6:34

it was such a civil rights travesty

6:38

at the time that two attorneys

6:41

went to the league threatening the suit. And

6:44

out of their threat came something

6:46

called the Rooney Rule. The

6:47

Rooney Rule. named after the family

6:49

who owns the Pittsburgh Steelers. This

6:52

is a league wide policy that was adopted

6:54

in two thousand three. It's changed couple

6:56

times over the years. but the gist is that

6:58

teams have to interview at least

7:00

one or two minority candidates for

7:02

some leadership positions, including

7:05

head coach. Within the first decade

7:07

of the Rune rule, you did see a spike

7:09

in representation throughout the NFL.

7:12

And

7:12

then once again, it goes down into a wave

7:15

and it goes to this moment,

7:17

once again, in two thousand twenty

7:19

two, in which you were down to one

7:22

blackhead coach, Mike Tomlin

7:24

of the Pittsburgh Steelers, temporary. Right

7:26

now, there's currently three because

7:28

two were hired late in the hiring wave.

7:30

but what happened when we were down to one coach

7:33

this time? A coach followed

7:35

through on a lawsuit. Brian Flores,

7:37

the former Miami dolphins coach, along

7:40

with two other coaches of former head coach Steve

7:42

Wilkes and a former assistant coach

7:45

Ray Horton filed a class

7:47

action suit against the NFL

7:49

alleging racial discrimination. I

7:52

know there's there's a sacrifice. There's risk

7:54

to that, but at the end of the day,

7:58

We

7:58

need change. We need change.

7:59

I know many

8:02

very capable black

8:04

coaches some of my

8:06

staff who I know if given

8:08

an opportunity or when given an opportunity going to

8:10

go and do great job on their interview. and

8:14

I would just hate for that to

8:16

be a to be a waste. And

8:18

they are currently in the process

8:21

of litigating that suit

8:23

as this NFL

8:25

season begins, the hundred and third

8:28

season in NFL history. And

8:30

over a hundred and three years, you

8:32

have twenty six black

8:34

coaches and less

8:38

than forty five people

8:40

of color, whoever coached

8:43

in the NFL. And so the entire

8:45

season is

8:47

being played under

8:49

the cloud of scrutiny of this problem.

8:51

I

8:51

wanna talk more about the rooney

8:53

rule because from what you're saying,

8:55

it sounds like at least for

8:58

a brief period, it was

9:00

successful in getting more

9:02

black coaches into these top jobs and that

9:05

it worked in some ways. So can you talk

9:07

a little bit more about what was good,

9:09

about the rooney rule, and why it

9:11

was actually a big thing to

9:13

have this promise that for every one of these

9:16

kind of premier positions, you would

9:18

have at least one candidate

9:20

from, you know, who's not a white dude?

9:22

I'm not sure if the policy itself

9:25

was effective

9:26

as much as this public

9:29

scrutiny of it. And

9:31

when you have this moment when people

9:33

are saying that the NFL

9:36

has this systemic racism

9:38

that they cannot solve, I think

9:40

in the immediate aftermath of that,

9:42

there is an attention to the issue,

9:45

and they go about being more intentional

9:47

and trying to solve it. And I think ultimately,

9:50

it was the marriage of public

9:52

pressure and a

9:55

policy that said, you know what? We

9:57

have to at least have conversations

9:59

with these coaches. And I think out of these

10:02

conversations, you start

10:04

to develop a bit more of

10:06

a network. But I

10:08

mean, the problem becomes whenever you

10:10

have policy that makes people

10:13

especially billionaires do

10:16

something in an obligatory manner,

10:18

they're

10:18

gonna turn it into a perfunctory

10:21

mess. and that's ultimately what happened.

10:23

Yeah, it's funny. As someone who doesn't

10:25

know a ton about football, I

10:27

do know about the runny rule because

10:30

it feels like it applies in all kinds of different

10:32

professional scenarios of what it

10:34

feels to be a candidate for a job

10:36

and thinking, like, oh, I'm clearly

10:38

only here so that they can say that they,

10:41

you know, interviewed a diverse set of candidates

10:43

or what have you. And I can imagine that

10:45

that's probably what some

10:46

of these coaches felt in these situations too.

10:48

So what did you hear from

10:50

people who were on the receiving end of that

10:53

of feeling like actually this

10:55

rule isn't helping me and that no matter

10:57

how I perform in these job interviews

10:59

or how competitive of a candidate

11:01

I am, that they're not actually being

11:04

chosen. Yeah. I think that there's a lot of frustration

11:06

because, you know, guys are going in for

11:09

interviews that they sort of go

11:11

in thinking it's a token interview, thinking

11:13

that they're just filling off a quota just

11:15

for them to scratch off a box and then move

11:17

on. And I know that the ruling has

11:19

been modified and changed over the years toward

11:21

now. You have to interview two minority

11:24

candidates. I

11:26

think the ruling rule was was

11:29

it was put in place with good intentions,

11:31

but I didn't necessarily like the spirit

11:33

of some of the teams and how they were using their own

11:36

rule. And so I just wanted to make

11:38

sure that I wasn't a token interview. Anthony

11:40

Lynn was a former Los Angeles Charger's

11:42

coach. And now he's assistant head coach to the

11:44

forty niners. when he

11:47

saw this unfolding, he made it up his

11:49

own personal policy that he would

11:51

not interview with a team unless they had previously

11:53

spoken to another minority candidate. And

11:55

they pissed a couple of teams off. You know, they

11:57

called and I say, you know, you have to interview

11:59

a a minority before I come interview for you.

12:02

And they moved on. That's

12:03

okay. Mhmm. Mark conversations with

12:06

a lot of these coaches, they saw the

12:08

good in it initially the other runny rule

12:10

and that it put them in the room expose

12:13

them to a lot of owners who they just otherwise

12:15

would not have come in contact with. But

12:17

they've seen it now manipulate it in

12:19

way where they still aren't

12:21

being seen as valuable commodities.

12:24

And there's somebody who can actually produce

12:26

wins for their franchise you

12:29

really are the focus on the things that you can't

12:31

control. I can't control how people perceive

12:33

me. But, you know, I can't focus

12:35

on on winning. And think at

12:37

the end of the day, you know, you're

12:40

a minority coach, you gotta win. And

12:42

and, you know, you you understand it coming in.

12:45

Your unleash might be short in others, but you

12:47

know, at the end of the day, you're in

12:49

that seat and you have an opportunity to do something

12:51

that others don't and

12:53

you need to make the most of it.

12:59

I think

12:59

there's a lot frustration there, but there's

13:01

also a culture of silence

13:04

that comes with that because the

13:06

last thing you wanna do when you're going

13:08

for job interview is to come like,

13:10

you're making an excuse as to why you didn't get it.

13:12

and then say, oh, I didn't get the job because I was black.

13:15

You know, you don't wanna come off as being self serving

13:17

or feeling like, you know, you're not holding yourself

13:20

accountable for not getting the job. you can't

13:22

really come out and publicly say, I didn't get

13:24

that job because I was black. because then it

13:26

looks like you're putting down another

13:28

guy who got the job, And so

13:30

they kinda have to just keep it to themselves

13:32

for the most part, their level of frustration

13:34

and just try to grind out of their current

13:37

job. because of the perception that comes

13:39

with that if you are outspoken about saying,

13:41

I know I deserve that opportunity. I didn't get

13:43

it because of the way I look. just put you in

13:45

a bad position. You may never get opportunity to interview

13:47

with another team if you do speak up. And

13:49

what has the NFL's response been

13:52

to accusations that

13:54

the rooney rule is essentially

13:56

being abused, and then it's not really

13:59

doing what it's supposed

13:59

to do, and more largely that the NFL

14:02

and then NFL owners haven't

14:04

been really committed to this stated

14:06

goal of actually increasing the diversity

14:09

among head coaches.

14:10

The NFL's general reaction

14:12

from a league office standpoint is

14:15

we're trying. We're working at it.

14:17

They continue to revised

14:20

policies and people debate

14:22

the merits of a lot of them, but they're doing a lot

14:24

of different things. they

14:27

continue to try to diversify

14:30

their staffs in the league office, try

14:32

to encourage diversity of

14:34

leadership, particular lee

14:37

at the executive level in

14:39

individual franchises so

14:41

that you might have different points of view

14:44

Ultimately, the league office will tell you their

14:46

hands are tied. They're not the

14:48

ones who are going to make

14:50

the final decision. that's up to

14:53

each individual franchise.

14:56

And it becomes a classic example

14:58

of there is no policy

15:01

that covers intent, that

15:03

mandates intent. There is no

15:06

way through a policy that

15:08

you can affect the heart and mind

15:11

of someone making a decision. And

15:13

so they become somewhat limited in that

15:15

way. The NFL is an interesting

15:18

all professional sports leagues are this way.

15:20

you have this league that functions as

15:22

one, but really what they

15:25

are are thirty two different

15:27

businesses. they all have their own

15:29

different business models, business

15:31

practices, revenue generation,

15:34

so on, and so forth. And so trying

15:36

to systematize and

15:38

centralized things in that

15:40

league is incredibly complicated.

15:43

And that is where all of this

15:45

unconscious bias sits. and

15:47

the fact that there is no uniformity in

15:49

the league except for when they play

15:52

on Sundays. And do you think that

15:54

the team owners actually believe

15:56

that this is a real problem, like

15:58

the fact that there have

15:59

only been twenty six black head coaches

16:02

in the league's history is a sign of something

16:04

that is truly wrong? They'll

16:07

say it. They'll say this is a problem. Yeah.

16:09

This is a problem. But they also

16:11

say, I'm not the problem. And so

16:14

if you speak to these owners, they'll be like,

16:16

oh, I'm not I'm not racist. I'm not

16:18

prejudiced. I believe in, you

16:20

know, providing opportunities for all. But then

16:22

when you look at their record and see that that isn't

16:24

the case, then they'll just deflect

16:26

a little more. Although or they just won't say anything.

16:28

But for the most part, whenever owners come out,

16:30

and speak about this topic, they'll say

16:33

that, yeah, this is a flaw, but

16:35

nobody's gonna step forward, step

16:37

upfront. and, like, really do something about

16:39

it or even demand that their colleagues

16:42

fix it.

16:45

After the break, we hear from some

16:47

of POACHES WHO HAVE NEED IT

16:50

AND

16:50

WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT HOW THE SYSTEM

16:52

SHOULD CHANGE. HE SAID I'M GOING

16:54

TO TEACH OUT OF THE AFFO. I

16:56

said, TV, whatever you want. I said,

16:59

I trust you. Whatever you want me to do, I'm gonna do this.

17:01

So I'm gonna teach you how to do this.

17:06

We'll be right. back.

17:14

This

17:15

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anyone else at safety dot google.

17:49

So

17:49

talk to me about one of the few black

17:52

head coaches who actually have been hired to these

17:54

jobs and what kind of impact

17:56

that they have had on hiring

17:58

practice and how they've been able

18:00

to change a little bit of the dynamic

18:02

here from the fact that they were able

18:04

to get into this job. Well,

18:06

Tony Dungey, so he won

18:08

a Super Bowl as a leader

18:10

of the cults. the first Black

18:12

Coast won a Super Bowl. Coaching

18:14

was never really my dream

18:16

or idea. I kinda grew up.

18:19

My parents were teachers. I

18:21

grew up thinking that might be

18:23

a way to go. I went to University of Minnesota.

18:25

I was a business administration major

18:28

thinking that I might go that

18:30

route. So I guess my game plan was

18:32

to play in the NFL about ten

18:34

years, win a championship, make

18:36

some money, and start my own

18:38

business. Well, that

18:40

kind of fell apart as I

18:43

only got to play three years in NFL.

18:45

Now I was twenty five years old and really

18:47

looking for a job.

18:50

And when he was hired by a template buccaneers

18:53

in nineteen ninety six, He didn't

18:55

just go there on his own. He went there

18:57

with a clear agenda to hire talent,

18:59

but especially making sure he provide opportunities

19:02

for black coaches in general. And

19:05

it it wasn't as if, okay, if I don't

19:07

win no other black coaches are gonna

19:09

get a chance, but I knew if I had success

19:11

that that would open the door for people. And

19:13

one of the guys who we hired was Herman

19:15

Edwards. And he made him

19:17

the assistant head coach and said, I am gonna

19:19

groom you to be a head coach. One of the first things

19:21

that he did was make sure that Herman Networks would

19:23

not leave for another coordinator position. He would

19:26

not leave to become a deepest coordinator anywhere else.

19:28

And so Herman Edwards, the first

19:30

job he got next was his head coach in

19:32

the New York Jets. He said, I'm gonna teach you how to do

19:34

a head coach. And I said, TV,

19:36

whatever you want. So I trust you

19:38

what everyone may have to do. I'm gonna

19:40

teach you how to do this. And so when

19:42

he made decisions and all those things, I

19:44

was involved in that. He

19:47

showed me how we went about making decisions. Sometimes

19:49

I didn't agree with them, but it was just the process

19:51

of what to do with it and just, you know, being

19:53

a head coach, all the things you gotta do to be a

19:55

head coach. So And so I learned

19:58

that and stayed under him, and and

20:00

there

20:00

were times I had opportunities to

20:02

leave, to become a coordinator, and

20:05

I chose not to. then Tony would

20:07

tell him. He said, you don't need to do that? Just

20:09

just trust me, you won't be a head coach.

20:11

And within five years,

20:14

selected New York Jets head

20:16

coach. There have

20:17

been a lot of coaches who work for them, Lavi

20:19

Smith, Mike Tomlin, who's gone on

20:22

to win a Super Bowl, Leslie Frazier.

20:24

So a number of these coaches who work for Tony

20:26

Dineshi have gone on to have their

20:28

own success. but Dunji has been

20:30

deliberate about it. You know, you don't become a

20:32

head coach by mistake. Someone has to see it

20:34

in you. Someone has to believe that

20:36

you had to potential to do this. And,

20:39

you know, every coach that we spoke to, there was always

20:41

somebody that came along their their pathway,

20:44

who they encountered, who said, you know what?

20:46

you have potential to be a true leader in this league.

20:49

I wanted to give some young

20:52

black coaches an opportune to

20:54

get in the NFL because the hardest thing at

20:56

that time was getting that first step, getting

20:58

in your foot in the door. And

21:00

so when I became the guy who

21:02

got higher, I was I was

21:05

looking for that. And

21:07

in your conversation with Dengue, how

21:09

did he react to the fact that we are now

21:12

on this downswing again? That even

21:14

though that there was this optimistic hopeful

21:16

period of seeing more black coaches come in,

21:19

that we're at this point where it's pretty much

21:21

just as bad as ever almost. there's

21:23

a sadness

21:24

there. You know, to see twenty years,

21:26

to the NFL, to go full circle, to go from

21:28

one to one. That is that's hurtful,

21:30

and it's something that I think he feels a responsibility

21:33

to make sure that doesn't happen again. And

21:35

so I just feel like he

21:37

knows that with his standing as a Super

21:39

Bowl winning coach in the hall of fame, that

21:42

he has to speak on their behalf, and he

21:44

has to sort of beat the drum loudly

21:46

so that owners can hear it. You know, he does things

21:48

behind the scenes. He makes phone calls. He talks to people

21:50

in the league office. he does everything you

21:52

can in on that regard, but that's

21:54

not always enough. You know, you need somebody

21:57

who can also speak

21:59

out and and make it clear. that,

22:01

hey, you're you're not doing what's right

22:03

and we gotta provide more opportunities. because

22:05

if you say you're about diversity and

22:07

inclusion as a league and we look on

22:09

the field and we don't see it, Somebody's

22:11

not telling the truth.

22:13

So then, what's the solution

22:14

here? Like, what would it take to make

22:17

more on ours right now? Take this problem

22:19

more seriously? and really

22:22

like make make the decisions that

22:24

need to be made in order for there to be

22:26

substantive change here.

22:27

When it comes to race relations in

22:30

America, I don't think any

22:32

progress has ever made without

22:34

some kind of leverage. So

22:36

there has to be some kind of transactional leverage

22:40

in the deal that forces owners to

22:42

change the way that they think. If

22:44

you think about quarterbacks and

22:46

we see Patrick Mahomes and

22:49

Lamar Jackson and Russell Wilson and

22:51

all of these great black quarterbacks

22:53

of this era. It wasn't that

22:55

the NFL just decided, hey,

22:57

it's time for us to be fair, to

22:59

black people who play quarterback. What

23:02

happened is that the game that

23:04

came so fast and there were so many

23:06

great sack artists getting to

23:08

quarterbacks, injuring quarterbacks affecting

23:10

the way that that position was

23:12

played, that they said, you know what? we need

23:15

a swifter more athletic quarterback

23:17

who can move and make plays outside of the

23:19

pocket. And that changed the entire

23:21

world for the black quarterback. And

23:23

so the transaction there being your

23:26

skill set is something that

23:29

is going to advance this game.

23:31

The question with black coaches now

23:33

becomes, what in the

23:35

world can you bring to the table

23:37

that convinces them? that

23:40

the game is going to be better

23:43

if you make it more diverse in

23:45

terms of leadership. And what would that be?

23:48

Well,

23:48

I think this is where it doesn't

23:50

become as joyful and wonderful.

23:53

And there there's a couple of things.

23:55

If players start demanding, that

23:57

they want to be coached by

23:59

a different

23:59

leadership style, then

24:02

all of a sudden things could change really quickly.

24:05

But it's hard to get an NFL locker

24:07

room of fifty three players per team

24:10

to protest for something that broad and

24:12

make those kind of demands. especially

24:14

when their careers are so short,

24:16

and they can be cut the next week

24:19

if they say anything or take a knee. You

24:21

know? So I think that putting the pressure on them

24:23

to speak out is very tough because

24:25

all players want as a coach who can put them in

24:27

a position to win, put them in position to get

24:29

paid. So whoever

24:31

does that, that's what they're gonna get behind. And what

24:33

do you think is at stake here? I mean,

24:36

for this sport that is for

24:38

better or worse, so kind of

24:41

intrinsic to American identity.

24:43

I mean, why does it matter? Why

24:45

is it important? That there

24:47

is a solution to this problem? that

24:50

what a head coach in the NFL looks like

24:52

does eventually start to change.

24:55

The influence of the NFL is

24:58

just tremendous. And so

25:00

if you

25:01

could solve your

25:03

institutional bias, or

25:05

at least decrease it a significant

25:07

amount. The message that that would

25:09

send to the entire country would

25:12

be amazing. And then also the

25:14

numbers. You've got the demographics on

25:16

your side. You have a player workforce that

25:19

in terms of African American representation,

25:22

is just below sixty percent.

25:25

And that

25:26

in essence is your

25:28

pool of candidates for future coaches.

25:31

And so for the NFL, a lot of it becomes

25:33

like, if you guys can't solve

25:35

it, you know, how in the world

25:38

is like this business going to be able to

25:40

solve it? And we saw with with the impact,

25:42

the ruling rule, even though the ruling rule

25:44

frustrates a lot of different

25:47

companies and government agencies who

25:49

have adopted some version of it,

25:51

the influence of the ruling rule is tremendous

25:53

throughout American business. And so

25:56

just imagine a day in which

25:58

the NFL could be like the NBA,

26:00

which now has fifty percent

26:02

of the league as black coaches. Imagine

26:05

if you saw a day in the NFL in

26:07

which sixteen or

26:09

more of the head coaches were

26:12

minorities. what that would

26:14

say to the nation. Yeah. And

26:15

I think the one thing that just look at look at the

26:17

field, you know, we talked about the progress

26:19

that black quarterbacks have made look at the excitement

26:22

of the game when you see a bedroom home

26:24

scrambling around the field and throwing a forty

26:26

yard bomb or collam Murray, tossing

26:29

a sling shot, you know, leading the comeback.

26:31

Look at how much fun the game is.

26:33

Well, what if you have a diversity of leadership,

26:35

diversity of ideas? to where you're not

26:37

doing everything the same way so that the

26:39

game doesn't look the same all over the place.

26:42

Well, you can really

26:44

expand how the games play, how

26:46

much fun it is if you try something

26:48

different. If you try something new, because right now everybody

26:51

thinks everything is cool. But what

26:53

if you switch it up a bit? what advancements

26:55

can you make as a league if you think

26:57

outside of what your comfort level

27:00

is. And so I think that's really what a lot of these

27:02

coaches are hoping to lead

27:04

and do. And so to say, hey,

27:06

you know what? This is great,

27:08

but we can be better.

27:13

My

27:13

goal and Jerry, thank you so much for

27:15

this. This is fascinating. Yeah.

27:17

Thanks

27:17

for having us. Thank you.

27:23

Jerry Brewer is a sports columnist for

27:25

the post. Michael Lee is a sports

27:28

enterprise reporter. Arjun Singh

27:30

produced this story. If you wanna

27:32

hear more from the head coaches who talk

27:34

to the post about their experiences with

27:36

the NFL. We've got videos of these

27:38

interviews online. We'll put a link to that in

27:40

our show notes.

27:43

That's it for post reports. Thanks for

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listening. Today's

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27:48

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