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going to rocketmoney.com/Washington Post.

0:28

That's rocketmoney.com/Washington Post. I'm

0:34

going to expose myself as a complete nerd right

0:36

now, but working at the State Department

0:38

was an aspiration I had since childhood. This

0:41

is Josh Paul. Until recently, he

0:43

worked in the U.S. State Department. His

0:46

job for more than a decade was to

0:48

help manage the transfer of weapons to foreign

0:50

governments. From one day

0:52

to the next, you could be working

0:54

on Ukraine, then Taiwan, then Saudi Arabia,

0:56

then something in Latin America. I

0:59

think there aren't a lot of places in government where

1:01

you can actually feel that you have a tangible impact.

1:04

But this is one of them. Josh's

1:06

work was always morally complex.

1:09

But at the State Department, he says

1:11

that there was open discussion about when

1:13

and why weapons were given to foreign

1:16

powers. In the arms transfer

1:18

business, you can't start, as doctors do, from the

1:20

premise of do no harm. You have to start

1:22

with do as little harm as possible. And

1:25

sometimes it is not possible to even do

1:27

little harm. Sometimes there is great harm. And

1:29

so the United States has relationships with a

1:31

lot of countries with dubious human rights records,

1:34

autocratic systems of government. And

1:36

yet we provide security assistance. We provide arms

1:39

for them to defend themselves, to

1:42

conduct operations such as counterterrorism operations.

1:45

And in each of these, I and several others

1:48

within the department would raise issues

1:50

and concerns. You know, what is going

1:52

to be the impact of these bombs? How are they

1:54

going to be used? Are they going to result in

1:56

civilian harm? These

2:00

were top of mind for Josh since October

2:02

7th, when Hamas killed about 1,200

2:04

people in Israel and took 250 people

2:06

hostage, and

2:09

since Israel began its intense military

2:11

campaign in Gaza. The

2:13

U.S. is the biggest supplier of military

2:15

equipment to Israel. And as

2:17

Josh saw how those weapons were being

2:19

used and how the death toll in

2:22

Gaza began rising into the thousands, he

2:24

started sounding the alarm. There

2:26

had always previously been some

2:28

space for discussion, for pushback, for raising

2:31

those concerns. What had changed after

2:33

October 7th was that space disappeared. There

2:36

were multiple requests coming in from the government

2:38

of Israel and direction from the

2:40

very top levels of the State Department and the

2:42

White House to say yes to everything as quickly

2:45

as possible without the sort of

2:47

debate that would normally occur or where there

2:49

were questions raised to escalate them incredibly quickly

2:51

and find them dismissed with

2:53

the direction to move forward. The space

2:55

for me to do good was simply not there. There

2:58

was only the space to view harm. Soon

3:07

after October 7th, Josh Paul

3:09

resigned. He was the

3:11

first high-level official from the Biden administration

3:13

to quit over America's policy in Israel.

3:16

Since then, congressional aides and White

3:18

House staff members have been outspoken

3:20

in calling for President Biden to

3:23

reverse course. Last week,

3:25

Biden delivered a surprisingly sharp

3:27

remark against Israeli Prime Minister

3:29

Benjamin Netanyahu. The

3:31

conduct of

3:33

the response in

3:39

the Gaza Strip has

3:41

been over

3:44

the top. But

3:48

the president has not signaled a change

3:50

in U.S. policy. From

3:56

the newsroom of The Washington Post, this is

3:58

Post Reports. 14

4:00

powers. It's Tuesday, February

4:02

13th. Today, we hear

4:05

why Josh Paul and others within

4:07

the Biden administration have resigned over

4:09

the U.S. government's approach toward the

4:11

war in Gaza. Then

4:13

I talk with Yasmin Abu Talib, who covers

4:15

the White House for the Post. She

4:18

explains why Biden has resisted pushing

4:20

back on Israel, and

4:22

why that might be changing now. Josh

4:28

Paul spoke to my colleague, Arjun Singh. Before

4:32

the war in Gaza, have you ever worked

4:34

on arms deals with Israel specifically? And if

4:37

so, how did you feel about those

4:39

agreements before what we are seeing in

4:41

Gaza right now? Yes,

4:43

the bureau has a global reach. And

4:46

of course, part of that is Israel.

4:48

Of course, Israel is accepting Ukraine in

4:50

recent years, our most significant recipient of

4:52

U.S. military grant assistance. I

4:54

was part of many discussions about

4:57

Israeli human rights practices, about potential

4:59

violations of human rights, and

5:01

also more broadly about arms transfers to Israel.

5:03

I will say that my position is not

5:06

one against all arms transfers to Israel. I

5:08

think countries do have the right to defend themselves. I

5:11

think citizens of any country do have the right to

5:13

live without rocket fire. So for example, I'm

5:15

fully supportive of the Iron Dome system

5:17

and other measures to protect Israeli civilians.

5:19

I think we need to think equally

5:22

about the protection of Palestinian civilians. And

5:24

that is why I'm concerned about our transfer of

5:26

lethal arms to Israel in the context of Gaza.

5:30

So then what was the moment

5:32

when you thought to yourself, I'm

5:34

doing more harm than good, and tell us

5:37

how you kind of got to that point

5:39

of feeling that you needed to resign. Yeah,

5:41

it wasn't a snap decision. I

5:43

actually drafted my resignation statement slowly over

5:46

the course of a week in

5:48

the post-October 7th context in which bombs were

5:50

raining down in Gaza. By

5:53

the time I resigned, about 10 days later,

5:56

there were already over two and a half thousand Palestinians

5:58

who had been killed in Gaza. And

6:00

yet there was no willingness, of course, to

6:02

revisit some of our decisions or to slow

6:04

down the process, rather just

6:06

this sort of rush to provide the arms that

6:08

we knew were going

6:10

to lead to massive civilian casualties. So my

6:12

reasons for resignation were, first of all, that

6:14

I don't believe US arms should be used

6:16

to kill thousands of civilians. I don't think

6:18

anyone believes that. I don't think anyone goes into

6:21

government to facilitate that. This

6:23

all comes on top of a policy process

6:25

that is broken. The intent

6:27

of our security assistance to Israel for certainly the

6:29

last couple of decades has

6:31

been that with security, Israel will feel capable

6:33

of making the concessions to the Palestinians needed

6:36

for peace. But

6:38

rather, Israel has taken that security

6:40

and essentially made itself not

6:42

have to worry about what steps it

6:44

is taking about the Palestinians. It

6:47

has enabled it to expand settlements in the West

6:49

Bank to continue the siege of Gaza.

6:51

And so this is a policy that is not working in

6:53

the way that it is intended. I think had there been

6:56

some space for debate, it's possible that it would still be

6:58

doing the job. Do you have

7:00

a sense of what was the source

7:02

of that unwillingness? And how

7:05

was it unprecedented? How was it unique from

7:07

your prior 11 years at the State Department,

7:09

specific to Israel? So in

7:11

terms of the source of that unwillingness, I

7:14

think it takes several forms. One of them

7:16

is, to be fair, the emotional

7:18

reaction to October 7th and the horrific attacks

7:20

that were conducted on that date. I

7:23

think that is entirely fair at a human level to

7:25

feel absolutely horrified and to respond to that horror with

7:28

a sort of passionate urge to do everything that is

7:30

possible to defeat it. The problem

7:32

is, it is not the job of the United States as a government to

7:35

respond with emotion. It is our responsibility as

7:37

civil servants to respond with

7:40

rational analysis of the situation

7:42

and an understanding of what

7:44

is going to be the consequences of our

7:46

actions and are they actually in our interest.

7:49

There is also, of course, a long track

7:51

record here of the US being unwilling to

7:53

question Israel's actions. That

7:55

unwillingness is baked into the bureaucracy

7:57

to some level, where I

7:59

think a the working level, people are willing to raise

8:01

these issues, but as soon as you get to sort

8:03

of the more political levels within the department or certainly

8:05

in Congress, people are just not

8:08

willing to touch these issues, are not willing to raise

8:10

these concerns because they see it as career suicide. What

8:13

result were you hoping from your resignation? Did you

8:15

think it would have an impact or was it

8:17

a more personal decision for you? So

8:20

I think there were two results I was hoping for. One

8:22

of them I have achieved, one of them are certainly not. The

8:24

results I have achieved is that

8:26

I did not want to be a part of this, and

8:29

I've not been a part of it. You know, I think

8:31

the question is how effectively, right? There has not been a

8:33

change in US policy, I'm disappointed to say. I don't know

8:35

that it would have been fair for me to expect one.

8:39

But to be fair, there has been a change,

8:41

I think, in the US public debate in this

8:43

issue. And to the extent

8:45

that I've contributed to creating the space for that

8:47

debate, certainly I think coming

8:50

out of the State Department and certainly, frankly, being

8:53

a white, middle-aged male, I

8:55

think that there has been some success, at least,

8:58

and some impacts with my resignation. Do

9:00

you find yourself to be an outlier? Were there

9:02

others within the State Department who felt the same

9:04

way as you, Josh? No,

9:06

I'm not an outlier. What

9:08

I've learned since leaving is that I was actually

9:11

part of probably a majority, that

9:13

there are hundreds of people I'm in touch with

9:15

within the US government now, who

9:17

represent, I think, the tip of the iceberg in

9:20

terms of how people feel about this issue. And I

9:22

think it's particularly obvious when you talk to

9:24

people who have worked on Middle East issues, when you talk

9:26

to people who have served for the US in

9:29

Israel, in the West Bank, who

9:32

understand the reality on the ground and the

9:34

impact that the current US approach is having

9:36

on our relations across the Middle East and

9:39

across the global south. When

9:47

Josh resigned in October, the death toll

9:49

in Gaza was 2,500. By

9:52

the first week of January, the death toll had climbed

9:54

to more than 22,000. And

9:58

there was a second public resignation. this

10:00

time from a Biden political appointee

10:02

inside the Department of Education. My

10:09

name is Tarek Habash. I recently

10:11

resigned from the Biden administration from

10:13

the Department of Education, where

10:15

I was a policy advisor working on

10:18

racial equity, higher education, and student loan

10:20

issues. Tarek says that he

10:22

worked for the Biden administration, and before that

10:24

for the Biden campaign, because

10:27

he believed in the value of education, and he

10:29

saw a chance to make change. I

10:32

was born and raised in the United

10:34

States. You know, I'm a Palestinian American.

10:37

But the reality is that

10:39

I also grew up hearing

10:41

stories about how my family

10:43

was forcibly displaced in 1948.

10:46

My aunts and uncles, my grandparents lost

10:49

everything they had. And I was always

10:51

reminded that, you know, you can lose

10:53

your possessions, your home can be taken from

10:55

you. But the thing that

10:58

cannot be taken from you is your identity and your

11:00

education, the things that you learn. Those things, you know,

11:02

will always be with you. And

11:05

for me, that was something that, you

11:08

know, I carried very, very deeply in my heart,

11:10

in my mind, every single day when I was

11:12

at the Department of Education. Tarek

11:16

believed the administration shared his values. Until

11:19

the start of the war in Gaza. They

11:22

did feel as a Palestinian

11:24

American that, you

11:26

know, there was only room for the

11:29

emotion and the empathy for one group

11:31

of people and not for everyone who

11:33

was suffering. And what

11:35

we saw in the aftermath is

11:38

the constant dehumanization of

11:41

Palestinians, the constant massacring

11:45

and collective punishment of millions

11:47

of Palestinians in Gaza. That

11:49

is really

11:51

being essentially

11:54

enabled by our current

11:58

government's policies every single day. day

12:00

and when you're in the

12:02

government and you are part

12:04

of that, you feel responsible to

12:07

a degree for what's happening

12:09

despite the fact that I was working in

12:11

education and not on foreign policy issues, of

12:13

course. But I

12:15

felt an obligation to bring humanity

12:19

to the issue from the

12:21

side of Palestinians and there

12:23

are even opportunities to communicate with the

12:26

White House about this. The White House

12:28

did do listening sessions and I appreciated

12:30

the opportunity to express myself.

12:32

I think my peers also felt

12:34

the same, but I think that where

12:36

it fell short was it felt

12:38

to an extent like a box-checking exercise

12:41

like lip service that we want

12:43

to hear from you, we want to

12:45

make sure you're okay, but we

12:47

have no intention of actually addressing the

12:51

root cause of what's creating the

12:54

circumstances by which you feel this

12:56

way. This is an ultimately, how

12:59

did you end up deciding that you

13:02

needed to resign? For

13:04

me it was a culmination of things. There wasn't like a

13:06

moment in time or a snapshot where I said, you know,

13:08

this is where I'm doing this. I

13:13

mean, I think like in the first week of

13:17

everything happening and just feeling so

13:19

raw and feeling like a zombie

13:21

walking through the halls

13:23

of the building and I just remember

13:26

having a conversation with my boss and

13:28

just completely breaking down. And

13:31

it was extremely hard after

13:34

just an entire week of constant

13:37

dehumanizing language from

13:39

the White House, you know,

13:42

effectively just reminding me of

13:44

like growing up as an Arab

13:47

in Southwest Ohio, you know,

13:49

in the aftermath of 9-11, having

13:52

nothing to do with anything and

13:55

just being constantly bullied as

13:57

like, essentially like, oh, this

13:59

is this. this is your fault and

14:01

having everything taken out on you. And

14:04

the reality that like those

14:07

emotions resurfaced and

14:10

resurfaced because of the language that was

14:12

coming from my own employer,

14:14

from like the government that I

14:16

worked so hard to support and

14:18

represent, it was just, it

14:20

was so hard to bear. And

14:23

I think that was the first moment I may have even like

14:26

contemplated like, I don't know if I

14:28

can be here. It

14:30

was just getting to the point where I

14:32

realized that

14:38

they didn't want to listen to their own staff,

14:41

despite dozens of

14:44

dissent cables from the State Department and

14:47

letters from USAID and

14:49

hundreds of anonymous staffers

14:51

signing letters that

14:54

raised real concerns about the administration's

14:56

policies. There was never

14:58

really a shift. There still hasn't really been

15:00

a shift in the policy. And

15:02

I wrote a

15:05

resignation letter that I eventually published

15:07

and at one point I

15:09

say, I cannot represent an

15:11

administration that does not value all

15:13

human life equally. I cannot

15:15

stay silent as this administration turns

15:17

a blind eye to the atrocities

15:19

committed against innocent Palestinian lives in

15:22

what leading human rights experts have called

15:24

a genocidal campaign by the Israeli government.

15:27

Do you think your resignation had

15:30

an impact? I hope so. I

15:33

think a few weeks down the road, like

15:35

I've heard from so many people, it

15:38

makes me have a sense of

15:40

hope about the possibility that

15:44

we could still change course. And obviously,

15:46

like I'm not hearing from the people

15:48

who are making the decisions on this,

15:51

but at the end of the day, I

15:53

really do feel hopeful

15:55

that so many Americans

15:57

agree kind of with where I

15:59

am. am on this particular issue in

16:01

this moment. Yeah, as best as

16:04

you can tell, what is

16:06

your sense of how widespread this dissent

16:08

is, specifically within the

16:10

ranks of people who work for

16:12

the Biden administration? I mean, it

16:14

feels fairly significant. I mean,

16:16

this is not going away. If

16:19

anything, I think it's escalating in

16:22

the level of dissent and consternation

16:24

within the staff ranks are real

16:26

and serious. And I think it's

16:29

a signal to the administration. I think it's a

16:31

signal to the campaign that you are losing your

16:33

base. You're losing the

16:35

people who believed in you for

16:37

so long and fought every single

16:39

day to enact your agenda because

16:41

of this issue. Tarek,

16:47

thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Thanks

16:50

so much. After

16:56

the break, we speak with post-White

16:58

House reporter Yasmin Abu Talib about

17:00

Biden's emotional attachment to Israel and

17:03

how that's being tested. We'll

17:05

be right back. Thank you. If

17:21

I asked you how many subscriptions you

17:23

have, could you list them all and

17:25

how much you're paying? Before using Rocket

17:27

Money, I would have said yes. But

17:29

I would have been so wrong. Rocket

17:31

Money is a personal finance app that

17:33

finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors

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your spending, and helps lower your bills.

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Rocket Money has saved its members over

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$5 million in

17:41

canceled subscriptions. Cancel your

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unwanted subscriptions by going

17:46

to rocketmoney.com/Washington Post. That's

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at oseamalibu.com. So,

18:26

Yasmin, we just heard from Tara

18:28

Kabash and Josh Paul, two government

18:30

officials who have resigned over the

18:32

Biden administration's policy on Israel. How

18:35

widespread is this kind of frustration?

18:39

It's pretty widespread. I think it's important

18:41

to make a distinction between Biden's senior

18:43

aides, the people in his inner circle

18:45

who are in discussions with

18:47

him driving the policy, and then the

18:50

broader administration, which is thousands of people.

18:52

So you have a lot of people,

18:54

when you're talking more broadly about the

18:56

administration, who are pretty

18:59

dismayed with the Biden administration's policy

19:01

on Israel, who have wanted them

19:03

to long call for a ceasefire,

19:05

who have been extremely uncomfortable and

19:08

upset with unwavering US

19:10

support of Israel. But I

19:12

think if we're talking about Biden's senior aides,

19:14

the people who have his ear in his

19:16

circle, that is not making it up to

19:18

those levels. So when it comes

19:20

to the dissent from that wider circle of

19:23

people who are in other parts

19:25

of the administration, what are

19:27

some examples we've seen of this dissent

19:29

bubbling up and becoming public? It's

19:31

kind of remarkable. We've had countless examples at

19:34

this point. There have been a number

19:36

of letters at the State

19:38

Department, at USAID, calling on the administration

19:41

to seek a ceasefire, to publicly call

19:43

for a ceasefire, and pressure Israel

19:45

to stop its military campaign in Gaza.

19:48

There have been a number of these

19:50

anonymous letters and anonymous protests where staffers

19:52

are protesting outside the White House. We

19:55

are congressional staffers on Capitol Hill,

19:57

and we are no longer comfortable.

20:00

being silent. Their faces are

20:02

covered, so you don't know exactly who it is,

20:04

but the point is to show up in wide numbers. Our

20:08

constituents are pleading for a

20:10

seat higher. They wear the separate

20:12

seats or their clothes every day. I

20:16

want to talk for a second about this

20:18

Senate, where there have been several measures brought

20:20

forward to try to push

20:22

back against how the Biden administration is

20:24

approaching this. Can you talk about who

20:27

in the Senate is leading this charge and

20:29

what they're actually proposing? It's

20:31

been pretty interesting to see how much

20:34

the politics of Israel have changed in

20:36

Congress, because before October 7th, I

20:38

think you would be pretty hard pressed

20:40

to find, especially in the

20:42

Senate, any senator, Republican, or Democrat who

20:44

would be willing to criticize Israel in

20:47

any significant way, let alone to talk

20:49

about conditioning aid to Israel. This was

20:51

just anathema to US lawmakers and would

20:53

have been an enormously unpopular position. But

20:56

you have a pretty big contingent of

20:58

Senate Democrats who have now signed on

21:00

to a measured conditioning aid to

21:02

Israel. So Senator Chris Van

21:05

Hollen has been leading the charge on this,

21:07

which would basically be a provision that

21:09

Israel and any nation receiving

21:11

US assistance has to abide

21:14

by international humanitarian law. Senator

21:17

Bernie Sanders introduced a measure that only

21:19

garnered 11 votes that would

21:21

basically require State Department to conduct

21:23

an assessment or a report looking

21:26

at whether Israel has abided by

21:28

international law in carrying out its

21:31

military campaign or whether there have

21:33

been violations. This is

21:35

a tragedy in which we, the

21:38

United States of America, are

21:41

complicit. Much

21:44

of what is happening, much

21:46

of the bombardment, and

21:49

the other actions that we are seeing now is

21:52

happening right now with

21:55

US arms and

21:57

equipment. In Other words,: whether

21:59

we are going to be. The we like it or

22:01

not. United States is

22:03

complicit. In. The nightmare

22:06

that millions of Palestinians

22:08

are now experiencing. And.

22:11

Has anything resulted from this push

22:13

back in the senate? It.

22:15

Has so biden last week issued with

22:17

call the National Security memorandums and basically

22:20

what it does, it doesn't really do

22:22

anything new, but in forces a set

22:24

of standards that the U S already

22:26

has that's recipients of Us aid and

22:29

weapons have to abide by international law

22:31

and that they can't basically block the

22:33

delivery of humanitarian aid. The White House

22:35

said they don't think any country receiving

22:38

weapons or aid right now is in

22:40

violation of this or else they wouldn't

22:42

be receiving. It's the one new thing

22:44

that this memorandum. Does which comes

22:47

back to the Sanders proposal. That

22:49

would require x the State Department

22:51

to issue will report every year

22:53

about whether countries are in compliance

22:56

with this and then if they

22:58

find that a country is not

23:00

in compliance, some accent could be

23:02

taken against them. So the result

23:04

of this is that Sen. Chris

23:06

Van Hollen, who introduced the amendment

23:08

that would effectively conditioned Aids did

23:10

not end. Up putting it on the floor

23:12

when the Senate voted on the supplemental build

23:14

because the White House issued. This memorandum

23:16

that basically did the same thing.

23:20

My understanding is that up

23:22

until pretty recently, Biden has

23:24

been very farm in his

23:26

conviction of the importance of

23:28

standing by Israel arm and

23:30

not pushing back publicly against

23:32

Israeli actions here. Can you

23:34

unpack that a little bit? And

23:36

how Biden has been approaching this

23:39

war up until recently. Biden.

23:41

Has this visceral attachment to the

23:44

state of Israel, and he has

23:46

for pretty much his entire political

23:48

career, which has spanned more than

23:50

fifty years. And so he is

23:52

very much of this mindset that

23:54

there should be no. Public.

23:56

Daylight between the Us and Israel he

23:58

came up and policy. at a very

24:00

different time where the port for

24:03

Israel was pretty uniform. There was really

24:05

no controversy in having unwavering support, and

24:07

now it's changed pretty dramatically among his

24:09

own party and among a key coalition

24:11

of his party. Well, so tell me

24:13

more about that. What was going on

24:16

when Biden was coming up in

24:18

politics between the US and Israel

24:20

that has so profoundly shaped his

24:22

commitment to this country? Well,

24:25

Biden is 81. So he was

24:27

alive for the creation of Israel. But

24:30

more than that, he, in

24:32

all of his speeches about Israel, it's sort

24:34

of a running joke. He talks about when

24:36

he met the Israeli Prime Minister Golda Meir,

24:39

who was an extremely different – this was

24:41

in 1973 – extremely

24:43

different prime minister than Netanyahu, who was

24:45

– oversees the most right-wing

24:47

government in Israel's history. So in

24:50

Biden's mind, Israel is this new,

24:52

fledgling democracy that's like fighting for its

24:55

survival in the Middle East with a

24:57

bunch of hostile neighbors. He

25:00

doesn't see what I think a

25:02

younger generation of Americans sees now, that they

25:04

are a military powerhouse in the region

25:06

that has oppressed Palestinians, massively

25:09

expanded settlements in the West

25:11

Bank. So there's

25:13

just this big generational divide in the way that

25:16

Biden sees Israel and believes the US role should

25:18

be there and the way the younger generation is

25:20

seeing them now. I'd

25:22

be curious to hear more about

25:24

specifically his relationship with Israeli Prime

25:26

Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Like, they do

25:28

seem to be very close, and

25:30

that seems to be a part

25:32

of why Biden hasn't wavered in

25:35

that support. It's a complicated

25:37

relationship. US officials find

25:39

Netanyahu extremely frustrating. He has been

25:41

in Israeli politics for a long

25:44

time. He's a very savvy political

25:46

operator. And he has

25:48

often sort of humiliated US presidents kind

25:51

of shamelessly. Like when?

25:53

So when Biden was vice president, he

25:55

was visiting Israel in 2010. And

25:58

right before he visited, he was visiting Israel. Yahoo announced a

26:01

new round of Israeli settlements which plate

26:03

the U S and an incredibly difficult

26:05

position of decide and still go even

26:08

though he made this announcement that is

26:10

counter to Us policy, so that was

26:12

kind of them. Poke in the I

26:14

ah right before Biden when he did

26:17

decide to sell, go on and then

26:19

recently displayed how much Biden has sacrifice

26:21

domestically for his support of Israel. Bb

26:23

is now almost campaigning against by then

26:26

for his own political. Survival. So what

26:28

would you mean by that? What? We're

26:30

now seeing as Netanyahu trying to cling

26:32

to power which is very tenuous in

26:34

Israel. He's enormously unpopular. Before all this,

26:36

he was facing corruption charges. He was

26:38

pushing through this highly unpopular judicial reform.

26:40

I'm and now they're of these questions

26:42

about his longevity, how long as he

26:44

going to be an office. But it

26:47

seems that he is using this tactic

26:49

because Biden in the Us have been

26:51

so public and saying after the war

26:53

is over we need to move towards

26:55

the two state solution. Bt has become

26:57

much more defiant in recent weeks and

26:59

saying well, I have prevented the creation of

27:01

a Palestinian state for decades and basically it's

27:03

just me standing between the creation of a

27:06

Palestinian state. If the U S got its

27:08

way, this is what they would do and

27:10

he has kind of directly insulted by the

27:12

end in recent weeks despite how much Biden

27:15

has supported Israel. But despite all that be

27:17

Be has you know not really hesitated to

27:19

make very clear he wants Trump to return

27:21

to power and that that would be a

27:24

better government for him to work with Arm

27:26

and to say you know to make very

27:28

clear he has absolutely no intention. Of

27:30

providing a pathway or any sort of deaths

27:33

or the Palestinian state. So. It

27:35

sounds like the relationship. Between Biden and

27:37

Netanyahu. Has gotten. ah

27:39

aren't more complicated? After the history

27:41

of think being very close and we're seeing

27:43

this on the bite inside to I know

27:46

that in the last week he has been

27:48

more critical of Israel than he has been

27:50

up to this point in the conflict. Can

27:52

you talk a little bit about what Biden

27:55

has said and how significant were those comments?

27:57

So. There's definitely been over.

28:00

rhetorical shift when we're talking

28:02

about the president. He, last

28:04

week, in response to a

28:06

question, he sort of volunteered this, said

28:08

that he believed Israel's military campaign in

28:11

Gaza had been, quote, over the top,

28:13

which was a pretty striking

28:15

turnaround for him because he has been very

28:17

careful not to really

28:19

criticize Israel in public. His aides

28:21

told us that he has long

28:23

felt this in private and been

28:25

very frustrated, but he's been extremely

28:28

careful to not voice this in

28:30

public. And then the president, while

28:32

he was delivering remarks after meeting

28:34

with the King of Jordan earlier

28:36

this week, said that he opposed

28:38

an Israeli military operation in Rafah,

28:40

which is the southern city in

28:42

Gaza that borders Egypt, where

28:44

more than a million Palestinians are

28:46

crammed in pretty decrepit conditions right

28:48

now. It's a tiny town that has

28:51

swollen to more than four times its

28:53

original size. He said he opposed that

28:55

unless Israel came up with a plan

28:57

to protect civilians. But I think the

28:59

thing that everyone is looking for here

29:01

is whether he's willing to back up

29:03

that rhetoric with action. And so far,

29:05

the White House has made pretty clear

29:07

they're not looking at actions like conditioning

29:09

or restricting aid or even threatening to,

29:11

or that there would

29:13

be any real consequence for Israel

29:16

moving ahead against their wishes. That

29:19

is so interesting, because I feel like

29:21

it speaks to what a lot of

29:23

these dissenting administration officials have brought up,

29:25

is that, yes, there has been this

29:27

strategy for years. That the best way

29:30

for the US to influence Israel is

29:32

to show immense solidarity in public, and

29:34

then maybe in private, take Netanyahu aside

29:36

and say, look, it would be nice

29:39

if you consider this. Look, you

29:41

know, we're here with you, but

29:43

there are a few things that we're taking issue

29:45

with. But it doesn't seem like that is getting

29:47

the US anywhere or that when it comes to

29:50

this issue of the two-state solution, which the

29:52

US is clearly in favor of, that

29:54

that's not something that Israel is

29:56

open to negotiation on or that

29:59

Netanyahu is open to negotiation. negotiation on. So it's like,

30:02

what is the U.S. getting out of this by

30:05

showing all the support if Netanyahu

30:07

just sort of turns around and is like, we're going

30:09

to do what we want anyway? I

30:11

think, Martine, that's exactly the question that a

30:14

lot of people are pressing the administration on

30:16

right now. There was, like you

30:18

said, this thought early on that you

30:20

basically hug Israel and you don't air

30:22

your public disagreements. You do them in

30:24

private, but you maintain public support so that

30:26

you can still influence them in

30:29

private. And I think in the first weeks

30:31

of the war, they felt maybe they were

30:33

getting something for that, you know, getting them

30:35

to allow very limited amounts of aid and,

30:37

you know, maybe not sending in all the

30:39

troops that they were initially planning to. I think

30:41

one of the things that they are especially proud of

30:43

is Israel had received some

30:45

faulty intelligence in the days after October

30:48

7th that an attack from Hezbollah in

30:51

Lebanon on their northern border was imminent and

30:53

they wanted to attack and the U.S. dissuaded

30:55

them from that. So they felt they prevented

30:57

this massive escalation of the war in the

30:59

early days. But I think as time has

31:01

gone on, there have been these questions of

31:03

like, what are you getting for this bear

31:05

hug strategy? You said that at the end

31:07

of all of this, you were going to

31:09

push them to get to a two state

31:11

solution. I spoke with a senior

31:13

administration official back in

31:15

November who noted that Biden was so popular

31:18

in Israel, he was so much more popular

31:20

than Netanyahu, and that, you know,

31:22

there was this question of when do you drain

31:24

all the goodwill that you've built? Do you do

31:26

it in calling for a ceasefire? Or do you

31:28

do it on this longer term thing of a

31:30

two state solution? And they were like, when it

31:33

comes to the two state solution question, that's when

31:35

we're going to start to really use all the

31:37

goodwill we've built. But obviously that's not working now

31:39

because Netanyahu really could not be any clearer in

31:41

saying he is absolutely not going to let this

31:43

happen in any way, shape or form. So

31:46

Yasmin, what are your questions that you're going

31:48

to be asking about this as this all

31:51

continues to unfold? Well, most

31:53

immediately is U.S. officials

31:55

are working around the clock to try to

31:57

secure a deal that would see

31:59

the release of many of the

32:02

remaining Israeli hostages in exchange for

32:04

Palestinian prisoners and a long-term pause

32:06

in the fighting. U.S. officials

32:08

say that that could also lay the groundwork for

32:11

a number of things that they need to do.

32:13

They could surge humanitarian aid into Gaza. They

32:15

could start to lay the groundwork for a

32:17

more permanent ceasefire. So that's really where the

32:20

focus is right now. So we know that

32:22

Biden's top aides, including CIA Director

32:25

Bill Burns, are in Cairo today

32:27

trying to negotiate this deal. There are still

32:30

some pretty big gaps between Israel and

32:32

Hamas, but U.S. officials say they feel

32:34

the framework is there and they can

32:36

get there. I think the bigger question

32:38

is how willing are the two sides

32:40

to come to this agreement? Netanyahu's facing

32:42

a lot of pressure from right-wing

32:44

cabinet ministers and his government not to take

32:47

this deal because they don't want to pause

32:49

in the fighting. They don't want to release

32:51

Palestinian prisoners. So U.S. officials

32:53

feel they can get there, but I think

32:55

there are still some pretty big challenges to

32:57

overcome. And securing this deal is

33:00

pretty key to all of

33:02

the diplomatic and humanitarian issues U.S. officials

33:04

want to address in the coming weeks.

33:10

Yesmin, thank you so much. Thank

33:13

you. Yesmin

33:17

Abutaleb is a White House reporter for

33:19

the public. That's

33:21

it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening.

33:24

Today's show was produced by Peter Bresnan.

33:27

It was edited by Monica Campbell. It was

33:29

mixed by Sean Carter. Thank

33:31

you to Renice Fornowski and Arjun Singh. And

33:34

if you love the show, help other people

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discover it by leaving a rating on Spotify

33:38

or a rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

33:42

I'm Martine Powers. I'll be

33:44

back tomorrow with more stories from

33:46

The Washington Post. Thanks for watching.

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