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0:32

I've been here for almost five

0:35

years and we've had a number of military

0:37

escalations and wars

0:40

in Gaza. But

0:42

I talked to neighbors in

0:44

their

0:45

80s who have lived through this

0:47

incredible violent history of this country

0:49

and even they say

0:51

they've never seen anything like this.

0:53

They've never felt

0:56

quite like this.

0:57

Steve Hendricks is the Jerusalem

0:59

Bureau Chief for The Post. We reached

1:02

him Monday evening Israel time to talk

1:04

about the violent attacks there by Hamas on

1:06

Saturday and

1:07

what's been unfolding since.

1:09

The foundations have shifted. Nothing

1:12

feels the same. People can't quite process

1:16

what's happening, much less what

1:19

might happen next. And none

1:21

of the scenarios are

1:24

very positive.

1:28

And Steve, where are you now? Are you safe?

1:33

People in Jerusalem always assumed they were the

1:35

safest community in Israel because

1:37

of a city that's beloved by all

1:40

the combatants, all the religions, you

1:43

know, fought over but beloved and therefore considered

1:45

to be sort of a little

1:47

bit immune from attacks

1:50

and violence. I think I'm safe

1:52

but I have to say it doesn't feel as safe as it used

1:55

to.

1:59

On Monday, Israel

2:02

announced a full siege of the Gaza Strip,

2:04

saying there would be no food, no

2:06

electricity, and no fuel. Hamas

2:09

has attacked Tel Aviv and Jerusalem

2:11

and other Israeli cities with rockets, and

2:15

taken dozens of hostages.

2:19

From the newsroom of The Washington Post, this

2:22

is Post Report. I'm Rachel

2:24

Lerman. I'm your guest host today. It's

2:26

Monday, October 9. Today,

2:29

a war in Israel. We talk

2:31

about how it started, what it means

2:33

for civilians on both sides, and

2:35

how it could end.

2:43

Steve, can you take us back a little bit? What

2:45

happened this weekend?

2:47

Well, it was the end of the long Jewish

2:50

holidays. It started with Rosh Hashanah

2:52

and then Yom Kippur, and then this was the second

2:55

weekend of the Sukkot holiday. There

2:59

were a lot of family celebrations going

3:01

on. Things were very shut down here, as

3:04

they always are on holidays. There

3:06

was this massive, basically, rave

3:09

that was happening in

3:11

the desert area in the south,

3:14

not too far from the border with

3:16

Gaza.

3:20

That's not as unusual as it might sound

3:23

to people on the outside, but there are communities

3:25

and normal life all around that area on both

3:27

sides of the barrier. After

3:30

many years in which a rhythm

3:33

of military escalations

3:35

and then peacetime

3:38

sort of become the norm, a cycle

3:40

people knew how to react to and predict.

3:43

It was a very relaxed time. Very

3:46

early on Saturday morning, just

3:49

really with the sunrise, people

3:51

on their phones get these alerts

3:55

when rockets are fired from

3:57

Gaza. Not too unusual. But

4:00

there were quite a number that went off very suddenly.

4:02

I think for many people that was the first sign

4:05

that something was

4:07

happening. The communities around

4:11

within sort of firing range of Gaza,

4:13

they did what they do, which

4:16

is to go to shelters or safe rooms. Again,

4:20

not that unusual here. Then

4:23

it took the most bizarre

4:25

and horrific turn people could imagine. At

4:29

this dance party that was happening,

4:33

they began hearing gunshots and then

4:35

the field where they were, suddenly

4:39

gunmen appeared, a great number of

4:41

them, and a tremendous panic

4:43

ensued. People were running, people

4:46

were getting shot. There's

4:48

tremendous numbers of videos

4:51

documenting all this that are sort of circulating

4:53

endlessly here. Then

5:01

we began hearing reports from

5:04

people in shelters, family

5:06

members getting texts and phone calls. There

5:10

are gunmen, there are terrorists in

5:12

our kibbutz, in our street. They're

5:14

entering houses. They're pulling people out.

5:19

Unbelievable things that people are still

5:21

trying to really comprehend. But

5:25

as the day unfolded, it became clear that this

5:27

was a major, very well

5:29

planned, very well executed military

5:31

attack with

5:34

strategies and contingencies and multiple

5:37

modes of entry. They came in out

5:40

of a breach in the

5:42

security wall on motorcycles.

5:45

They went over on paragliders. They went

5:47

offshore and came

5:49

up on the beaches. It

5:51

was a proper invasion from a force

5:55

that has really never been considered to

5:57

have those kind of capabilities.

5:59

How did Israeli intelligence miss

6:02

this? Well,

6:04

that's a question that's going to consume

6:08

this country for years to come. There

6:10

are no answers at this point. This

6:13

is still unfolding. There are still Hamas

6:16

fighters coming out of Gaza, replacing

6:21

troops that have been fighting. It's still

6:24

such an active combat zone in some

6:27

places. The Israeli military say

6:29

they are very close to containing the

6:32

last of those hot spots. But after

6:35

this comes a response

6:38

of a scale that we don't know yet, but it's certainly

6:40

going to be intense. The 1973

6:43

Yom Kippur War has

6:46

always stood up in Israeli history

6:49

as the biggest failure of

6:51

intelligence, of readiness, of

6:53

anticipating the attack

6:55

from multiple Arab neighbors,

6:58

it is an all-out war. That's how Israeli

7:00

Defense Minister Moshe Dayan describes an

7:02

invasion of the Golan Heights and the east bank

7:04

of the Suez. This is already being discussed

7:07

on a level with that. And as

7:09

the death count rises

7:11

and the fate of these dozens

7:13

and dozens of hostages, many

7:16

of them civilians, it

7:18

remains unknown. This

7:21

could become the most notorious

7:23

day of unpreparedness in this

7:26

country's history.

7:28

And what has been Israel's response so

7:30

far?

7:31

The military was absolutely

7:34

clearly caught off guard. There's

7:38

a lot of discussions here that they had

7:40

built this, the estimate

7:42

is something like a billion dollar high-tech

7:45

security barrier between Gaza

7:48

and Israel. It includes concrete fences,

7:50

subterranean barriers, radar,

7:54

detectors of all kinds. But

7:56

then they largely left it without

7:58

enough personnel to monitor. That

8:01

seems to be some early analysis. Now,

8:04

we don't know what

8:07

the particulars are of deployments, but

8:09

for whatever reason, there

8:12

was not a ready military presence

8:14

at the site of this attack. So

8:16

for the last many hours now, they've

8:19

been trying to mount that with air attacks, with

8:22

moving tremendous numbers of personnel

8:25

into the area, going house

8:27

by house and village by village in the early

8:29

hours. And now they

8:31

tell us, they think they're close to having the

8:34

area completely cleared and secure.

8:38

But we always seem to get another

8:39

report of more

8:42

Hamas people coming out, and the

8:44

fighting just continues.

8:46

So can you tell us how civilians

8:49

are feeling right now inside Israel?

8:51

I mean, this is a population that's

8:55

used to warfare. They're used to rocket

8:57

attacks. They're used to air raid sirens. They're

9:00

used to terrorist attacks. I've

9:03

never felt a mood like this in

9:05

the country. I don't even quite know how to describe

9:07

it. It's certainly fear. There's

9:10

a sort of a gut-churning

9:12

uncertainty about what's happening

9:15

now and what's likely to happen. But

9:17

even about the future of

9:20

the country, comparing it to

9:22

9-11 and the feeling that a lot of

9:24

Americans had, just

9:27

not knowing what the future would look like

9:29

or feel like when

9:32

our assumptions were so shattered

9:35

by shocking events.

9:37

Right. And it's still so raw. I mean, it

9:39

just happened less than

9:41

three days ago.

9:42

It's still so raw, and it's just replayed

9:45

on a loop on social media videos. There's

9:48

so much documentary evidence of really

9:51

horrific scenes of people being killed.

9:54

I just talked to a young woman today

9:56

whose grandmother very elderly,

9:58

lived alone on a kibbutz. for

10:00

most of her life. They

10:02

lost touch with her after she said

10:05

someone was coming in the house and

10:07

then they saw a video of her being

10:10

driven in her own golf cart with

10:12

four Hamas fighters across the

10:14

barrier into Gaza.

10:16

That's the last they know of her. She's very

10:18

elderly and

10:21

they

10:21

really have very little hope, her safety.

10:25

That's terrifying. So people are watching

10:27

these things over and over. I mean,

10:29

I'm sure some families know

10:32

how to avoid that, but it's in the air and

10:34

it's just repeating itself.

10:37

Can you tell us a little bit about the hostages,

10:39

about the hostage taking and

10:42

what Israel is doing to try to get

10:44

people back?

10:45

This is a country that's had a lot of hostage situations

10:49

through its history. We've had commando

10:51

raids to rescue, hijack passengers

10:53

on airliners. We've

10:55

had a lot of deals to release

10:58

Hamas prisoners in exchange for

11:00

a captured Israeli soldier, for example.

11:03

None of that compares to what's happened

11:05

here, effectively the mass kidnapping

11:07

of children

11:10

and families and elderly

11:12

people, and then all being

11:14

held in a very hostile territory.

11:16

The options are really

11:18

not good in any case. And the mood here

11:21

is probably not one for some grand

11:23

bargain. So there are various

11:26

estimates, but at least between 100 and 130 capis being held. And

11:32

their families have a very real prospect

11:35

of watching a massive military

11:37

operation unfold that probably

11:39

will not go well for

11:41

anyone in Gaza, captive

11:44

or president.

11:45

So Netanyahu has vowed to destroy

11:48

Hamas, but what does that mean for the

11:50

people in Gaza? Is there a way for civilians

11:52

to leave?

11:54

I'm afraid the options to leave Gaza

11:56

are incredibly limited. plenty

12:00

of people want to. I know because

12:02

our very close,

12:06

long-time Washington Post colleague,

12:09

Hasem...

12:15

Take your time. There's no hurry.

12:20

Hasem Balusha is

12:23

trying to get out with his wife and two

12:25

young sons. We've been

12:28

working to find a way There

12:30

aren't many. Some people are getting out through

12:33

the crossing with Egypt, but

12:35

even that is restricted. There

12:38

are lists and there are great

12:41

barriers to that. Thousands

12:45

of other people have yet to overcome. Many

12:49

many people are basically trapped there. That's

12:51

very scary. Steve,

12:54

can you take us back a little bit? This is

12:57

a really big question. I know there's a lot

12:59

of history here about land and

13:01

religion, but Can you

13:03

remind us why Hamas and Israel are fighting

13:05

now?

13:06

Well, Hamas is recognized

13:09

as a terrorist group by Israel, the United States, the

13:12

European Union. It

13:15

came to power when it surprisingly, more

13:18

than 15 years ago, won an election.

13:21

After that, Israel had to make a decision

13:23

about, and the rest of the

13:25

world, how to relate

13:28

to this terrorist

13:30

organization that was suddenly

13:32

effectively the government of the Sanclia

13:35

of two million people. It's been

13:38

messy. It's been complicated. There's been exchanges

13:41

and military fighting across

13:43

the border for all

13:45

of that period, including some quite major

13:48

and deadly full-out wars. There's

13:51

a mix of people who try to influence

13:54

Hamas and steer it, including the Qataris

13:57

and the Egyptians. It's

13:59

a rival. of the other major

14:01

Palestinian party, Fatah, which

14:04

is dominant in the West Bank and

14:06

controls the Palestinian Authority,

14:09

which is the governing body of

14:11

the West Bank. And

14:14

it's always been a bit of a back and forth about exactly

14:16

how militant and how terroristic is

14:19

this group, or are they becoming more moderated

14:21

as they have had the responsibilities

14:23

of governing. It's a

14:26

very difficult place, Gaza. I was just there

14:28

a few weeks ago. There's not reliable

14:30

freshwater. There's not reliable

14:33

electricity. Part of that

14:35

is the effect of a very tight

14:37

economic embargo that Israel maintains.

14:40

Part of it is certainly Hamas mismanagement,

14:43

misgovernment, corruption, and really

14:45

their priority being a

14:47

resistance to the Israeli occupation.

14:50

And what I think we've just seen is

14:53

throwing away all of the other aspirations

14:56

they may have had as an entity

14:59

to govern or to play

15:01

a positive role, and full-on

15:04

commitment to the armed resistance

15:07

and attack on Israel.

15:09

And is it fair to say that tensions

15:11

between Israel and Hamas have been escalating

15:14

recently?

15:15

Yeah, they definitely cycle. My colleague,

15:17

Hazem, and I just did a story last

15:21

month about how

15:23

it seemed to be ticking up again. It's been relatively

15:26

calm for several months,

15:29

even as the West Bank has seen almost

15:32

nightly military clashes

15:34

in various cities and camps.

15:37

Gaza had actually kind of settled

15:40

down for the summer. And a lot

15:42

of workers who had permits across the border

15:45

into Israel did that, up to more

15:47

than 15, 16,000 of them. But

15:51

then just in the last few weeks, the

15:53

cycles seemed to turn and maybe turn faster

15:56

than we recognized.

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at indochino.com,

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promo code podcast. So Steve, this conflict comes at a

18:30

time

18:34

when

18:37

there's already a lot of political upheaval

18:39

within Israel. Last time you

18:41

were on the show, it was to talk about the political

18:43

crisis over a move from Netanyahu's

18:46

government to weaken the judiciary, which

18:48

a lot of people in Israel saw as anti-democratic.

18:51

Can you remind us of that context?

18:53

That's a great example of how the last

18:56

two days have really just shifted

18:58

the plates here entirely.

19:02

This year has marked the most intense

19:05

domestic political upheaval in Israel's

19:08

history.

19:10

Massive, massive protest

19:13

every week in reaction to

19:15

this government's plan

19:17

to restructure the judicial

19:20

system here, basically limiting the power

19:22

of the prosecutors in the Supreme

19:24

Court, limiting the power

19:26

of the Supreme Court to overturn certain government

19:30

rules that it deemed unreasonable

19:33

or unconstitutional, even

19:35

though Israel doesn't have a written constitution.

19:38

Those concepts are the same as

19:41

in the United States. As

19:43

part of those protests, for the

19:46

first time ever, really, at large scale,

19:49

members of the military took part, protesting

19:51

the government. Thousands of

19:54

reservists, who are really a backbone

19:56

of the Israeli military,

19:58

said they would not.

19:59

turn out for training in

20:02

the course of this, as their leverage

20:04

point to stop this legislation.

20:08

So there were a lot of concerns, a lot of security

20:10

officials were saying publicly

20:12

that it was a dangerous moment for

20:15

readiness, that Israel wasn't prepared

20:19

as it tries always to be. There

20:22

was a lot of questions about what would happen if

20:25

in a major emergency. So

20:27

the emergency came and the response

20:30

from the protesters and those

20:33

reservists who had joined them was

20:36

immediately to put

20:38

on uniforms for the reservists

20:41

to cancel the protests for

20:43

the demonstrators. I

20:46

would say with no exceptions

20:48

that I can see, the country is

20:50

responding here with one voice

20:53

and all of that concern, all

20:56

of that controversy, it will

20:58

come back in some form right now, but it has

21:01

just been wiped away from the

21:02

country's consciousness. Wow, so that's a pretty

21:04

dramatic shift very quickly.

21:06

Overnight, in hours that happened.

21:09

How has the international

21:12

community responded so far to this conflict?

21:14

What kind of response are we seeing from

21:16

outside Israel?

21:17

Well, the waves of shock just

21:19

keep radiating outward and endless

21:23

expressions of support. Some

21:26

countries are trying

21:28

to organize evacuations of their

21:31

citizens. It's not

21:33

that, for example, the United States has called for

21:35

Americans to leave, as

21:37

the State Department will do in some very

21:40

dangerous circumstances, but there are very

21:42

few flights coming

21:44

in and out. They're trying

21:47

to find avenues for people who want to leave,

21:50

and I know that's true for many

21:52

embassies. But

21:55

more materially, we

21:57

see that Washington is deploying.

24:03

Steve Hendricks covers Israel for The Post.

24:06

That's it for Post Reports. Thanks for listening.

24:09

Today's show was produced by Emma Talcoff

24:11

with help from Ariel Platnick. It was

24:14

mixed by Sean Carter and edited by

24:16

Maggie Penman. If you want to show

24:18

your support for the show, please subscribe to The Washington

24:20

Post. It's a great way to help us do this

24:22

work. Go to washingtonpost.com. I'm

24:27

Rachel Lerman. We'll be back tomorrow with

24:29

more stories from The Washington Post.

24:45

When it comes to personal style, it's all

24:47

about layers, especially now. Add

24:49

layers to your fall style with new colors,

24:51

fabrics, and styles from Indochino. Go

24:54

to indochino.com and use code PODCAST

24:56

to get 10% off any purchase, $3.99 or more.