0:00

Well, you know, it's funny. We're

0:02

talking about Iran a few minutes

0:04

ago. Iran has their military proxies,

0:06

like Hezbollah, and Iran has their

0:08

campus proxies, like these groups, like

0:10

S.J.P. and JVP. I mean, look

0:13

at them. I mean, this is

0:15

literally like a demonstration in Tehran.

0:17

And you can't believe it's happening

0:19

in morningside heights. Welcome

0:52

back to posting through it. I'm

0:55

Jared. And I'm Mike. And this

0:57

week we're going to talk a

0:59

little bit about the Anti-Defamation League,

1:01

a Jewish civil rights organization that

1:04

has cozied up to the Trump

1:06

administration in ways that have left

1:08

a lot of people scratching their

1:10

heads. The ADL calls itself

1:13

the leading anti-hate organization in

1:15

the world. It's a bragidocious

1:17

line, but it might have some truth

1:19

to it. Since its founding in 1913

1:21

2013. 112 years ago, the ADL

1:23

has developed a healthy

1:26

network of political alliances

1:28

that defy traditional partisan

1:30

lines. Democrats, Republicans,

1:32

law enforcement, community

1:35

leaders, religious institutions,

1:37

and countless similar

1:39

entities around the world pick

1:41

up the phone when ADL calls. It is

1:43

a behemoth in its field. Operating

1:46

with funding that soars well into

1:48

the hundreds of millions of dollars,

1:50

its CEO Jonathan Greenblatt is among

1:52

the first people that news networks

1:54

call when the news requires somebody

1:56

to talk about hate and extremism

1:58

in the United States. States. The

2:00

ADL brands itself with the

2:02

tagline, fighting hate for good. In

2:05

fact, it even has that slogan

2:07

trademarked. Its founding mission was

2:09

to stop the defamation of

2:11

Jewish people and to secure

2:13

justice and fair treatment to

2:15

all. All of that sounds great. To

2:17

most people, it's the making of

2:20

a success story. The ADL has a

2:22

level of influence and power

2:24

that most organizations only daydream

2:26

of. And I want to

2:28

be clear. There's nothing inherently

2:30

wrong with having influence. Most

2:32

organizations wish they had the

2:35

pool that the ADL has. But

2:37

his Uncle Ben tells Peter

2:39

Parker after he becomes the

2:41

Spider-Man. Remember, with great power,

2:43

comes great responsibility. If you

2:45

watch how the organization behaves

2:47

in politics, especially in recent

2:49

years, you couldn't be blamed

2:51

for wondering if the ADL

2:53

is using its power responsibly.

2:56

and in ways that you

2:58

might reasonably expect from the

3:00

leading anti-hate organization in the

3:02

world. Between praising Elon Musk

3:04

to defending Donald Trump, to

3:06

advocating for police and political

3:09

actions against critics of Israel,

3:11

it can be hard to make sense out

3:13

of that picture. In a little bit,

3:16

we're going to take a closer look

3:18

at the ADL with Vegas Tenel, who

3:20

recently wrote about working at the organization

3:22

between 2018 and 2020. We'll try

3:24

to answer a question I've seen

3:26

asked a lot in the last

3:28

couple of years. What happened

3:31

to the ADO? Did anything? Before

3:33

we talk to our guest,

3:35

let's step back and talk

3:37

about some recent events that

3:39

served as the impetus of

3:41

this episode. It's probably a

3:43

good point in the show to

3:46

remind people that posting through it.

3:48

It's probably a good point in

3:50

the show to remind people that

3:53

posting. that involves my day job

3:55

in exactly zero ways and that

3:57

any opinions I share here are

3:59

Well, my opinions. That's adorable. I don't

4:02

want to hear it, Mike. Yeah, no,

4:04

this is a big, this is a

4:06

big topic. That's part of the reason

4:09

we have to do it. I mean,

4:11

you know, so it's something to

4:13

have an opinion about because

4:15

unfortunately, there are only a

4:18

few organizations that really have

4:20

influence that reaches mainstream news

4:22

that reaches people who live

4:25

in, you know, suburbia. In

4:27

the conversation we're going to

4:29

have with Vegas is the

4:32

kind of conversation that I've

4:34

had privately with many people

4:37

and usually occurs privately,

4:39

but we thought it might

4:41

be worthwhile to have one

4:43

publicly too. Protests began

4:46

at Columbia in response

4:48

to developments that happened

4:50

after Hamas attacked Israel

4:53

on October 7th, 2023.

4:55

On that day, Hamas and other

4:57

aligned groups killed more than

4:59

1100 people. Close to 700

5:01

of them were civilians, and of

5:04

those, 38 were children. The attacks

5:06

were described widely as

5:08

the deadliest day for Jewish people

5:11

since the Holocaust. After the

5:13

attack, Israel launched a

5:15

military offensive that has resulted

5:17

in a profound loss of

5:19

human life. As of March

5:22

4th, this year... The Gaza Ministry

5:24

of Health had reported close

5:26

to 50,000 deaths, more than

5:28

13,000 of them being children.

5:30

Some scholars have estimated that

5:32

Gaza has undercounted their deaths

5:35

and that about 80% of

5:37

people killed in the conflict

5:39

have been civilians. Amnesty International

5:42

has accused Israel of

5:44

committing genocide against Palestinians.

5:46

The International Court of

5:49

Justice ruled it was

5:51

plausible. that Israel was

5:53

violating anti-genocide laws. Israel denies

5:55

these claims as to many of

5:58

Israel's allies. After the United

6:00

nation's human rights council raised

6:02

concern that Israel was committing

6:04

human rights violations and that

6:06

its killing of Palestinian civilians

6:08

amounted to crimes against humanity,

6:11

Israel disengaged from the body

6:13

alleging it was biased. Horrified by

6:15

what they were seeing, watching

6:17

the US government support Israel

6:19

in its military actions with

6:21

seemingly no hesitation, students at

6:23

Columbia University began to protest.

6:25

Now, during these protests, especially

6:27

the peak of them last

6:30

year, there were students filmed

6:32

and reported making remarks supportive

6:34

of Hamas, praising the

6:36

October 7th attacks and

6:38

directing hateful comments towards

6:41

Jewish students. The protests

6:43

were condemned by President Joe

6:45

Biden, and Columbia President

6:47

Nemat Shafik was dragged in

6:49

front of Congress to answer

6:52

why the university had not come

6:54

down harder on these protests.

6:56

On April 17th, 2024, the

6:58

day of Shafik's congressional

7:01

appearance, protesters employed

7:03

that encampment strategy, and

7:05

it was repeated across

7:07

the nation. Tensions would escalate

7:10

as the university and police

7:12

in New York tried to

7:14

clear the protesters. Hundreds of

7:16

people were arrested through the

7:19

process. It became an all-out

7:21

media circus. International news

7:23

outlets, politicians, activists from around

7:25

the country were going to

7:27

Colombia to be seen and

7:29

to engage with protesters. At

7:32

the climax of last year's

7:34

protest, students occupied a university

7:36

building, which resulted in another

7:39

traumatic police action. Protests

7:41

have continued to this day,

7:43

at Colombia and elsewhere, going

7:45

through on and off periods.

7:47

Politicians and media outlets talk

7:49

about a crisis of anti-Semitism

7:51

on college campuses these days. Definitely,

7:54

it's a moral panic, and

7:56

without making a value judgment

7:58

about the legitimacy of that

8:00

moral panic, I'll note that as

8:02

with any moral panic, there's vultures

8:04

in the wings who would love

8:06

to capitalize on it for their

8:08

own desires. I'm not going to

8:10

argue here that the ADL is one

8:13

of those vultures, but it certainly is

8:15

postured in a spot where it could

8:17

starve off the worst impulses

8:19

of them. And I will be clear about

8:22

my thoughts on that. They're not doing

8:24

it, or if they're trying, they

8:26

haven't been very effective. One

8:30

of the public faces of

8:32

the protest movement in

8:34

Colombia is Mahmoud Killeel. Now he's

8:37

the most public face, of course,

8:39

due to no fault of his

8:41

own. And he's the person

8:43

who helped lead some of

8:45

these encampment protests. On March

8:47

1st, ICE arrested him. Ice

8:49

agents also threatened to arrest

8:52

Killeel's wife, who is eight

8:54

months pregnant. And he, you

8:56

know, they moved him to a

8:58

facility in Elizabeth, New Jersey, and

9:01

then later to a facility

9:03

in Louisiana. It's worth noting

9:05

that throughout this process, they

9:08

have made it difficult or

9:10

impossible for him to be

9:12

in touch with his attorney, who

9:14

is now challenging the case

9:16

in court. So to our point here,

9:18

on March 9th, ADL releases

9:20

a statement. And the statement

9:23

says, we firmly believe there

9:25

should be swift and severe

9:27

consequences for those who provide

9:29

material support to foreign terrorist

9:31

organizations, incite violence in support

9:33

of terrorist activities, or conceal

9:35

their identities in order to

9:37

harass and intimidate Jewish individuals

9:39

and institutions with impunity. We

9:41

appreciate the Trump administration's broad,

9:44

bold set of efforts to

9:46

counter campus anti-Semitism, and this

9:48

action further illustrates that that

9:50

resolve by holding alleged perpetrators

9:52

responsible for their actions. Obviously

9:54

any deportation action or revocation of

9:57

a green card or visa must

9:59

be taken in alignment with required

10:01

due process protections. Thank you for

10:03

adding that part, ideal. We also

10:05

hope that this action serves as

10:07

a deterrent to others who might

10:09

consider breaking the law on college

10:11

campuses or anywhere. The problem with

10:13

this statement, well, one of the

10:16

problems, anyway, is that the US

10:18

government has still not articulated or

10:20

bothered to explain, rather they've done

10:22

the opposite, what crime cohealed supposedly

10:24

committed. In fact, you know, Trump

10:26

administration officials have gone to NPR

10:28

or Barry Weiss's publication, The Free

10:30

Press, and made the bizarre argument

10:32

of like, well, you know, we're

10:34

not, we're not saying he broke

10:36

the law. We're just saying, like,

10:38

we're allowed to do this, you

10:41

know, which is crazy, crazy to

10:43

me. Well, I remember, so I

10:45

had been, I'd like working on

10:47

a few deadlines at once, but

10:49

one really to my book and

10:51

others related to articles and stuff.

10:53

And so I had not really

10:55

been posting online. I hadn't really

10:57

done that for a few days.

10:59

And only semi paying attention to

11:01

things. So just like reading stuff

11:03

people would send in group chats

11:06

and stuff like that, you know,

11:08

just to sort of kind of

11:10

let somebody else curate the news

11:12

for me. But then I saw

11:14

that ADL post and for me,

11:16

it was a really profound moment

11:18

where I just like, like, sort

11:20

of a new level. I had

11:22

come to distrust ADL personally like

11:24

over the course of years for

11:26

reasons we may get into with

11:28

Vegas in a bit, but you

11:31

know, it's sort of like there

11:33

has been these new levels that

11:35

they have hit recently. And so

11:37

Trump gets elected and then of

11:39

course Elon Musk does his, his,

11:41

um, you know his his his

11:43

Roman salute I guess you would

11:45

call it you know he says

11:47

it's not that whatever I don't

11:49

I don't think he actually ever

11:51

denied it but he just sort

11:53

of laughed at it and made

11:56

Nazi jokes but ADL without Elon

11:58

must input just comes out and

12:00

sort of apologizes for him right

12:02

off the bat just to sort

12:04

of say like, he didn't mean

12:06

it, he's a good boy. And

12:08

then this, there's so many things

12:10

to parse out here, but like,

12:12

number one, the first thing is

12:14

that they congratulate the Trump administration,

12:16

right? You cannot do, you just,

12:18

you cannot be an organization that

12:20

speaks out about the radical right

12:23

or far out extremism and congratulate

12:25

the Trump administration for anything other

12:27

than not existing anymore. you know,

12:29

I congratulate them for falling apart.

12:31

That's the only thing I would

12:33

ever congratulate them for. Because this

12:35

is an organization to put Darren

12:37

Beaty in the State Department, right?

12:39

I mean, Stephen Miller is like

12:41

running the show in terms of

12:43

policy. To congratulate them for anything,

12:45

that was one. Then the second

12:48

thing, since Greenblatt started on the

12:50

whole, you know, in the whole

12:52

post 10 seven space. It has

12:54

been difficult. My mother is Egyptian.

12:56

We have Palestinian roots before that.

12:58

for that reason I try to

13:00

kind of like stay out of

13:02

things you know because I just

13:04

like it gets very emotional for

13:06

me and it's it's very uncomfortable

13:08

and painful and this stuff and

13:10

I understand for a lot of

13:13

Jews it's really painful too right

13:15

like what what happened on October

13:17

7th is extremely painful it's this

13:19

is really difficult to talk about

13:21

especially when you have like a

13:23

sort of a racial element in

13:25

in the way you perceive the

13:27

news but this to me was

13:29

like you know such blatant anti-era

13:31

racism to just agree with the

13:33

with the detention of a green

13:35

card holder for a protest for

13:38

for for approaching for standing up

13:40

like it's it's such a denial

13:42

of the genocide that has been

13:44

happening the amount of people they

13:46

I mean there's I've seen estimates

13:48

where it's up between 60 and

13:50

70 thousand people killed but also

13:52

the number of children who have

13:54

been who have been killed children

13:56

I mean like we're talking about

13:58

20 thousand children something like that

14:00

is that is so horrific and

14:03

to not understand that like that

14:05

Arabs and Muslims are seeing this

14:07

stuff and have a personal emotional

14:09

attachment that is that is that

14:11

is racial cultural that is so

14:13

deep in the same way that

14:15

Jews do when they when when

14:17

October 7th happened to not understand

14:19

where these protesters are coming from

14:21

an emotional place and just be

14:23

like yes deport him to me

14:25

That was that was enough. I've

14:27

seen enough. That's anti-Arab racism to

14:30

me. And you cannot be an

14:32

anti-Arab racist and claim to stand

14:34

out for civil rights. Just a

14:36

few things to contrast the ADL

14:38

statement that might help you figure

14:40

out where it is on the

14:42

political spectrum. Ann Coulter, who loves

14:44

deportation, wrote a book called Adios

14:46

Amigo. For Fox sake? No, it's

14:48

Adios America. It was called Adios

14:50

America, and it was the book

14:52

that Trump, it was the book,

14:55

it was called Adios America, and

14:57

it was the book that like

14:59

Trump was like given like, you

15:01

know, 10 minutes before he announced

15:03

his run for president to try

15:05

to figure out what his views

15:07

were. So I say, hey, here's

15:09

a racist book. Check this out.

15:11

Needless to say, I have not

15:13

read this book. But unless they've

15:15

committed a crime. Isn't this a

15:17

violation of the First Amendment? Yeah,

15:20

she's also written for a white

15:22

supremacist website, to be clear. That's

15:24

kind of the situation. More arrests

15:26

like this are on the way

15:28

if you listen to Trump talk.

15:30

He says that it is the

15:32

first of many to come. So

15:34

what happens in Cahill's case is

15:36

important. I also want to note

15:38

about Cahill's case that a lot

15:40

of the attitudes statements and whatnot

15:42

that have been attributed to him

15:45

in press that is sympathetic to

15:47

the Trump administration that is supportive

15:49

of this law enforcement action that

15:51

was against him. You know, they

15:53

don't even say that he espoused

15:55

these crazy views or that he,

15:57

you know, distributed Hamas propaganda or

15:59

anything like that, just that he

16:01

was aligned with groups and individuals

16:03

that did. And I feel that

16:05

aligned with is such a loose

16:07

precedent for some, you know, such

16:10

an extreme law enforcement action. This

16:12

should be sending off red flags

16:14

in everybody's head. I don't care

16:16

if you agree with this guy

16:18

or not. This is clear overreach

16:20

and just kind of seems like

16:22

the Trump administration was like, all

16:24

right, we gotta we gotta deport

16:26

some students and they turn on

16:28

their TV and like the first

16:30

person they saw, they were like,

16:32

okay, let's go get this guy.

16:34

This one particular case is obviously

16:37

scary. He'll scare, you know, getting,

16:39

his green card taken away is

16:41

obviously scary. If it ends there,

16:43

it's a huge injustice and something

16:45

for the history books and not

16:47

a good thing. But, It opens

16:49

the door for a potential, potential

16:51

abuses of power, the likes of

16:53

which we have not seen in

16:55

our lifetime ever, right? And if

16:57

you think that they won't, and

16:59

you can see like the kind

17:02

of right wing posters and that,

17:04

you know, online stuff like that,

17:06

you've seen people like Jack Bozobic,

17:08

who we talked about last week,

17:10

saying like the answer to every

17:12

question is deep deport, right? They

17:14

are saying that about American citizens.

17:16

Right? They are saying that essentially

17:18

if you're a kind of an

17:20

anti-fascist protester that they don't like

17:22

that's in their face or whatever,

17:24

then let's send them to Gitmo,

17:27

right? That's where they want to

17:29

send everybody, right? Send them to

17:31

Gitmo, get them out of here,

17:33

etc. And so we cannot have

17:35

civil rights organizations, you know, standing

17:37

with this ideology, this way of

17:39

seeing life on this country. If

17:41

we do, we are we are

17:43

truly doomed. So I think it's

17:45

that's why it's you know, it's

17:47

just so important to kind of.

17:49

pause this and look at it

17:52

and reject what ADL was doing.

17:54

covers extremists, covers strange figures of

17:56

all kinds. Man named Vegas Tenalt.

17:58

Vegas wrote the book Everything You

18:00

Love will Burn. One of my

18:02

favorite, absolute favorite, books about the

18:04

alt-right moment, as people would call,

18:06

probably my favorite book, actually, Vegas.

18:08

I love it so much. The

18:10

scenes of Matt Heimbach eating Twizzlers

18:12

is just like... There's so much

18:14

color you included in everything you

18:17

love will burn. I got called

18:19

a bootlegger so many times because

18:21

of stuff like that because I

18:23

think people wanted me to show

18:25

them as just monsters the whole

18:27

time. Right. And I kind of

18:29

prefer to be funny a little

18:31

bit. Well, I see. Yeah, I'm

18:33

glad you enjoyed it. Well, I'll

18:35

just I don't want to go

18:37

off on a side tangent here,

18:39

but I just don't say I

18:41

think it is really important. to

18:44

show white supremacist neo-Nazi, all these

18:46

type of figures as human beings.

18:48

I mean, I think that's part

18:50

of the reason that made that

18:52

book so effective for me. And

18:54

that's why I'm such a big

18:56

fan of it. But yeah, everyone

18:58

should buy it. Also, you are

19:00

Emmy nominated for your work advice.

19:02

So there's that. And today we

19:04

are going to talk about the

19:06

time you spent. I believe is

19:09

right after you're publishing. everything you

19:11

love will burn. Is that correct?

19:13

Your time? Yeah. With ADL. It's

19:15

a hot button issue right now

19:17

in part because of the ADL

19:19

stances and the immediate aftermath of

19:21

that debacle at Columbia University. and

19:23

the detention of Mahmoud Khalil. So

19:25

give us a little background of

19:27

how you ended up coming to

19:29

ADL and what your first impressions

19:31

were like. I joined the ADL

19:34

to the day, a year to

19:36

the day after the United Right

19:38

rally in Charlottesville. So I think

19:40

my first day was August 12,

19:42

2018. I had been going through

19:44

something I'm sure you both and

19:46

a lot of our friends and

19:48

co-workers can relate to which is

19:50

freelance fatigue, right? Like I've been

19:52

freelancing for years, my book had

19:54

just come out and it hadn't.

19:56

Substantially changed my my financial situation.

19:59

So it's just like I need

20:01

a I need a job like

20:03

I want a job right now

20:05

and so the ADL came along

20:07

or in Siegel who was then

20:09

the director of the Central Extremism

20:11

offered me this job and you

20:13

know we've all used well I

20:15

don't know if you ever used

20:17

the Central Extremism as a resource

20:19

Michael because you were with the

20:21

you were with the competition but

20:24

like. Most of us it's one

20:26

point or another interviewed them use

20:28

their reports or whatever because we

20:30

needed quote-unquote expert voices for our

20:32

pieces Yeah, so I would I

20:34

would deal with Oran quite a

20:36

bit when I was when I

20:38

was at Newsweek for like an

20:40

oh yeah ninth month stretch so

20:42

then like it was always about

20:44

calling one expert another and actually

20:46

that's how I ended up forming

20:48

a relationship with SPLC. So yeah,

20:51

I knew Oran from that continue

20:53

Yeah, so Orrin offered me a

20:55

job and I hadn't, yes I'm

20:57

just like a bit of a

20:59

lazy dude, like I hadn't done

21:01

fully my research on the EADL

21:03

because I suppose if I had

21:05

I might have thought twice about

21:07

taking the job, you know, the

21:09

occupation of Palestine is something that's

21:11

already always been kind of a

21:13

big deal to me. But anyway,

21:16

I took this job because it's

21:18

what I'd been doing anyway, right

21:20

monitoring. right wing spaces. I was

21:22

bummed when I first got there

21:24

because I thought I would get

21:26

to keep going to Nazi rats.

21:28

and have shitty barbecue and do

21:30

weird shit. And then I discovered

21:32

that no, we don't do that

21:34

anymore. We just kind of like

21:36

sit at our computers and do

21:38

research, which is fine, which is

21:41

fair enough. But so I was

21:43

kind of always like a little

21:45

bit of an ill fit. I

21:47

think even Oran said that a

21:49

few times, like as you know,

21:51

as friendly as me and Oranar,

21:53

he was just like, I don't

21:55

really know where to put you.

21:57

Because at the time I was,

21:59

you know, I had this book

22:01

out, I was one of the

22:03

quote unquote leading authorities on right

22:06

wing extremism. And so he was

22:08

like, do you do we just

22:10

make you an investigative researcher? I

22:12

was doing a bunch of media

22:14

when I was still there. So

22:16

it was like kind of an

22:18

ill fit, but I mean, I

22:20

liked it. I remember the first

22:22

day, Jonathan Greenblatt introduced me to

22:24

everyone as Noah. I don't know.

22:26

This is this this is Noah

22:28

nice to meet you Noah and

22:31

then he also made the announcement

22:33

that he hired He hired the

22:35

author Vegas Tenel while I'm like

22:37

standing there with him and it's

22:39

like Vegas couldn't be here today

22:41

I'm like I guess I guess

22:43

Noah's here. So I have no

22:45

idea what where was this was

22:47

this in DC was it in

22:49

New York? No, I was at

22:51

the I was at the New

22:53

York office the big looming black

22:55

fortress on on 39th Street I've

22:58

actually never been there so can

23:00

you get like a picture of

23:02

like what that's like what is

23:04

when you say a big looming

23:06

fortress I mean it's got kind

23:08

of like I don't want to

23:10

put too much like cheese on

23:12

this metaphor but like it's got

23:14

like a tower of sorrow on

23:16

vibe but then again most Midtown

23:18

buildings have that vibe but it's

23:20

just like a big black mirrored

23:23

building the center on extremism has

23:25

Kind of its own space I

23:27

think they renovated now, but there

23:29

was a collection of desks I

23:31

was brought in while a bunch

23:33

of other people were brought into

23:35

We're still my friends to this

23:37

day a lot of them, but

23:39

there was like a bunch of

23:41

new younger people because that the

23:43

team was a relative old team

23:45

at that time. You know, Mark

23:48

Pitt Cabbage is kind of getting

23:50

up there, like a few of

23:52

them are, so they hired a

23:54

bunch of young people, he says,

23:56

being 45 at the moment. For

23:58

people who don't know Mark, he

24:00

is most well-known among people on

24:02

who kind of cover this material

24:04

for like replying to people's tweets

24:06

and giving them subtle corrections, right?

24:08

Like that's his favorite thing to

24:10

do. I have a lot of

24:13

love in my heart for Martin.

24:15

We fought and argued all the

24:17

time because he's a curmudgeon. He's

24:19

hugely knowledgeable, of course, like he's

24:21

been doing this. Like he started

24:23

doing it as a hobby, right,

24:25

in the 90s, I think. I

24:27

think the Center on Extremism was

24:29

basically built around him. He's a

24:31

dork, so we would talk about,

24:33

you know, role-playing games and strategy

24:35

games, and then we would like

24:38

fight and argue. I remember when

24:40

the George Floyd Floyd thing happened.

24:42

kind of tongue-in-cheek, but he was

24:44

like, I disagree. Yeah, well, he's,

24:46

well, you know, that is part,

24:48

he, among people who, who kind

24:50

of self-identify as Antifa, they have

24:52

a real, real issues with Mark

24:54

because he's, he's, he's, he's very

24:56

both sides about, about that type

24:58

of thing. So, like, okay, you

25:00

start working there, I mean, is

25:02

it a, are you, are you

25:05

immediately aware of a vibe that

25:07

you find uncomfortable, uncomfortable? Or is

25:09

it, does it kind of seep

25:11

in over time? Like, I understand

25:13

that you have good relationships with

25:15

people there and you have, you

25:17

know, you're getting along with friends

25:19

and colleagues and stuff like that.

25:21

But like, what is a, the

25:23

Gjak thing, the trash can of

25:25

ideology or whatever? Like, do you,

25:27

do you getting something like on

25:30

a day-to-day basis that feels uncomfortable?

25:32

How long does it take for

25:34

that to kind of set in?

25:36

It took a while I would

25:38

say I mean I was just

25:40

kind of like getting into my

25:42

job But after after a while

25:44

I started doing public talks like

25:46

everyone who works at the Centronic

25:48

Extremism well not everyone, but a

25:50

lot of us were expected to

25:52

go out and talk to stakeholders.

25:55

Like some of that was to

25:57

talk to law enforcement, which I

25:59

did a lot of, like this

26:01

is what to look for when

26:03

you're looking at Nazis or whatever

26:05

the hell or the proud boys.

26:07

And then some of it was

26:09

to talk to stakeholders, whether they

26:11

were synagogues or community groups or

26:13

whatever. And I remember those were

26:15

the days when people were really

26:17

freaking out about. Antifa, right? Like

26:20

remember those days in 2018. I

26:22

actually interviewed an investigative job with

26:24

ADL at 2019 and like you,

26:26

I think kind of had the

26:28

same impression. I don't think I

26:30

would have applied for that job

26:32

today, but you know, it's coming

26:34

up in this line of work.

26:36

It's like, well, here's this organization

26:38

that's like at that point, even.

26:40

you know, more than 100 years

26:42

old. These are the people that

26:45

you see in media over and

26:47

over again, the type of people

26:49

I'm calling for quotes and reports

26:51

and statistics to add to stories.

26:53

And that was, I could tell

26:55

during the interview, they were, I

26:57

think, trying to kind of feel

26:59

out some of how I felt

27:01

about things. I remember a couple

27:03

questions were like, would you be

27:05

comfortable presenting in front of law

27:07

enforcement? And my answers for something

27:09

to the effect of like, I

27:12

really really would rather not. Good

27:14

for you. Which is maybe why

27:16

I didn't get that job. Because

27:18

our skill set, like all the

27:20

three of us, we have this

27:22

very particular area of expertise, right,

27:24

which feels big and huge and

27:26

stuff like that. But at the

27:28

time, like we have deep knowledge

27:30

of an extremely niche part of

27:32

American society, I guess. There weren't

27:34

that many jobs going around for

27:37

far-right experts, really. So when the

27:39

ADL opens its books for new

27:41

investigative research or whatever, like, yeah,

27:43

we're gonna apply. There would be

27:45

times when I would like bring

27:47

in my kafia to work. just

27:49

because I thought it would be

27:51

like a little bit fun. Like

27:53

I didn't really understand like how

27:55

deep their organizational antipathy toward the

27:57

Palestinian cause. And you know, so

27:59

I would just like show up

28:02

to work with my Palestinian Kefia

28:04

that I bought in Gaza in

28:06

2008 or whatever. And it was

28:08

fine. Like no one gave me

28:10

any grief about it, but also

28:12

I didn't see. Jonathan Greenblatt on

28:14

a regular basis, but like Orrin

28:16

would like laugh it off and

28:18

so you do that you wrote

28:20

a piece for your sub stack

28:22

called the fascist and his little

28:24

helpers. So I think I have

28:27

a pretty good idea of how

28:29

your experience in the long term

28:31

went with ADL. But first I

28:33

think maybe for listeners it's helpful

28:35

to zoom out. The center on

28:37

extremism is what we're talking about.

28:39

This is the part of the

28:41

ADL that produces reports that say

28:43

you know there's all these new

28:45

anti-Semitic incidents there's all these extremist

28:47

murders here are the numbers we

28:49

have counted them here is something

28:52

you can reference the methodology for

28:54

some of those reports has been

28:56

called into questions I should note

28:58

by a few journalists basically on

29:00

like what is included what is

29:02

not included the threshold for inclusion

29:04

but first can you explain sort

29:06

of the different tracks of programming

29:08

inside the ADL because the Center

29:10

on Extremism produces research and Often

29:12

public reports. I think that's easy

29:14

to see but the ADL does

29:16

a lot of stuff That is

29:19

not in its center of extremism

29:21

that is you know I don't

29:23

think they make much of an

29:25

effort to hide it. I'm not

29:27

going to claim or I don't

29:29

mean to suggest it's like secret

29:31

or anything like that. But for

29:33

people who are unfamiliar, what else

29:35

does the ADL do? I mean,

29:37

I am not full, like, honestly,

29:39

I didn't really give a shit

29:41

while I was at the ADL

29:44

what the other branches did, but

29:46

they do, they have like an

29:48

education department. that does educational outreach

29:50

work. They have youth programs throughout

29:52

the country. They have a big

29:54

legal department that works with legal

29:56

cases and legal, like kind of,

29:58

I guess, a little bit like

30:00

the ACLU, except also very different.

30:02

So they're many fasted. They do

30:04

all kinds of stuff. But I

30:06

would say the Center on Extremism

30:09

was kind of, I guess, a

30:11

little bit the crown jewel, because

30:13

it was one of the most.

30:15

public-facing parts of the ADL, but

30:17

I would say their biggest role

30:19

is to be, is to have

30:21

a lot of definitional power when

30:23

it comes to Jewish issues in

30:25

America. They're just like a... But

30:27

just a lot of freez you

30:29

right there. What does that mean?

30:31

What do you mean by definitional

30:34

power? Well, so when Jonathan Greenbeck

30:36

goes out and says that criticism

30:38

of the state of Israel or

30:40

criticism of Zionism, anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism.

30:42

When he says that, that comes

30:44

from the ADL and people, you

30:46

know, sit up and listen. And

30:48

I think that's why I also

30:50

wanted to write this piece about

30:52

their support for the arrest or

30:54

the detainment of Mudkale is that

30:56

when they say stuff like this,

30:59

it... has a huge ripple effect,

31:01

right? Like people, if it was

31:03

just like some little bullshit organizations

31:05

supporting the Trump administration's detainment of

31:07

Kaleel, I wouldn't care. But like

31:09

I know that people listen to

31:11

what Jonathan Greenberg has to say

31:13

and what the ADL has to

31:15

say, which is why it's such

31:17

a huge bummer. So, you know,

31:19

along with APAC, they are one

31:21

of the absolute biggest voices when

31:23

it comes to Jewish issues in

31:26

not just in America in the

31:28

world, right? Right right and that

31:30

power is something that like every

31:32

organization wants right they've been tremendously

31:34

successful but what they do with

31:36

that power matters a lot. Hmm.

31:38

So let's go back to your

31:40

piece and some of the experiences

31:42

you had when you were there

31:44

between 2018. 2020. This was, it

31:46

seems almost ubiquitous now, but this

31:48

was the onset of Antifa panic

31:51

and largely that was a reaction

31:53

to what happened in Charlottesville in

31:55

2017. It was this sort of

31:57

both sides in kind of play

31:59

of like, well, yes, white supremacy

32:01

is violent, it is a problem,

32:03

but there's this other thing and

32:05

look we're going to talk about

32:07

that too and we're not bias

32:09

and and you can't accuse us

32:11

of only caring about some parts

32:13

of the political spectrum yeah and

32:16

that persists today in non-profits I

32:18

will say but like it's I'm

32:20

curious how that sort of expressed

32:22

itself in your day-to-day work at

32:24

the ADL I think there was

32:26

a few things happening right so

32:28

one of the the elements of

32:30

my job was was public speaking

32:32

which is you know what you

32:34

said Jared that you wouldn't enjoy

32:36

and and some of it was

32:38

cops and this was at the

32:41

moment where cops were also extremely

32:43

concerned about left-wing extremism and there

32:45

was a lot of like equating

32:47

the two and you know all

32:49

the all the time I had

32:51

like this like what about Antifa

32:53

what about Antifa I would spend

32:55

so much time talking about Antifa

32:57

and their threat level and and

32:59

to the ADL's credit or to

33:01

the center on extremism's credit they

33:03

were always very diligent and say

33:06

like look we have all this

33:08

fucking right wing violence happening we

33:10

have zero examples of left wing

33:12

violence especially in the in the

33:14

murder and extremism report like they

33:16

would always point out like it's

33:18

coming from one side you guys

33:20

so so the ADL has never

33:22

in that sense kind of like

33:24

equated the two but it was

33:26

frustrating and also if I'm going

33:28

to be generous like I kind

33:30

of Get like if I want

33:33

to be very generous to the

33:35

cops maybe they were asking because

33:37

they didn't fully understand what Antifa

33:39

was and they thought it was

33:41

scary But also when I was

33:43

talking to church groups and synagogues

33:45

and community groups there was just

33:47

this endless pearl clutching about like

33:49

Antifa and stuff like that. And

33:51

I don't think, I didn't really

33:53

know how to deal with it.

33:55

Like I accidentally made an old

33:58

woman cry once because she had

34:00

just been on me for this

34:02

whole talk about Antifa and then

34:04

I was just like, Jesus, fucking

34:06

Christ. They are literally anti-fascist and

34:08

you're an old Jewish woman. Like

34:10

these are the last people you

34:12

should be afraid of. They are

34:14

fighting for you. But obviously with

34:16

this new thing, there was also

34:18

this sense that we need to

34:20

look into it. Let's try to

34:23

make Antifa into more of a

34:25

boogie man than it is. There

34:27

was just a discomfort with it,

34:29

right? And I think, I think

34:31

kind of that's for two reasons.

34:33

One is because the ADL under

34:35

Jonathan Greenblatt has become an increasingly

34:37

conservative organization politically so with a

34:39

healthy skepticism toward left-wing politics, often

34:41

aligned with. you know, the solidarity

34:43

movement and pro-Palestinian politics. So there

34:45

was like a discomfort with left-wing

34:48

groups there, but also your average

34:50

ADL supporter, your average ADL fan,

34:52

is an older person who isn't

34:54

used to this new expression of

34:56

left-wing politics, who is uncomfortable, very

34:58

much sort of the centrist, like,

35:00

you know, we should just let

35:02

this, we should let them battle

35:04

it out on the marketplace of

35:06

ideas. So they were just like

35:08

very uncomfortable with rowdiness in general.

35:10

And then the right wing were

35:13

just better at sucking up to

35:15

cops than the left wing. So

35:17

they just, I don't think, you

35:19

know, they, I don't think they

35:21

fully know how, knew how to

35:23

deal with it. Can I ask

35:25

you, you mentioned in your piece,

35:27

you talk about Black Lives Matter.

35:29

Yeah. And you were, they actually

35:31

gave you an order not to

35:33

use ELLM and Black Lives Matter

35:35

hashtag, is that right? Directly. Yeah.

35:37

We were, we were told, I

35:40

don't. Remember if this was something

35:42

that was put into writing, but

35:44

we were told that that we

35:46

weren't supposed to put these hashtags

35:48

in our in our tweet. because

35:50

I think they were seen as

35:52

political or divisive. I mean, I'm

35:54

speculating here, but yeah. Right. So

35:56

under the idea that that they

35:58

would remain like centrist above everything,

36:00

not not weighing in a partisan

36:02

way, but then it was later

36:05

found that they were they were

36:07

kind of monitoring black lives matter

36:09

activists. Yeah, that's something I only

36:11

realized recently and the Guardian the

36:13

Guardian did a piece on that

36:15

and they were monitoring which which

36:17

I was a little bit surprised

36:19

of too because usually when they

36:21

wanted to have something monitored they

36:23

would ask us like we were

36:25

the monitors, but I think this

36:27

one was sent over to their

36:30

security department or something like that.

36:32

So I mean, again, I can

36:34

only speculate, but to me that

36:36

says that they must have known

36:38

that it was a little ify

36:40

and During that time was when

36:42

me and some of my co-workers

36:44

had written this letter in response

36:46

to the murder of George Floyd

36:48

saying that we shouldn't be in

36:50

the business of working with cops

36:52

anymore So maybe they picked up

36:55

a bit of a vibe from

36:57

the Center on Extremism on that

36:59

like almost all the investigators at

37:01

the Center on Extremism co-signed that

37:03

letter. So it was a big

37:05

push from all of us not

37:07

to not to end their relationships

37:09

with cops, because we knew that

37:11

that probably isn't realistic when you're

37:13

talking about the ADL, but to

37:15

pause it and to kind of

37:17

like reconfigure it. I mean, I

37:19

gotta say like, no matter what

37:22

my thoughts are about ADL and

37:24

whatever, put that aside, the overall

37:26

thoughts. I will say that I

37:28

am a little bit shocked by

37:30

that, because here like, you know,

37:32

I worked for Southern Poverty Law

37:34

Center, we could do about 12

37:36

episodes about about... the dysfunction there.

37:38

But you know, these were the

37:40

sort of the coke Pepsi of

37:42

extremism monitoring, correct? Like that's basically,

37:44

you know, it's like the one

37:47

two like things that people think

37:49

about and then everybody else is

37:51

somewhere over there. there's Fanta and

37:53

this and that, right? But there's

37:55

a cokepsy, right? Those are the

37:57

big two. And SPLC in their

37:59

marketing, I want to stress, in

38:01

their marketing, that's the very important

38:03

part of it, because not in

38:05

their hearts, but in their marketing

38:07

is using like, you know, black

38:09

live matter stuff directly. So it

38:12

would almost put the SPLC and

38:14

SPLC employees and stuff like that,

38:16

you know, under the sort of

38:18

eye of ADL, which I find

38:20

kind of startling to be honest

38:22

with you. Yeah, I don't know

38:24

what the impetus for these kind

38:26

of things would have been because

38:28

it seems super paranoid, right? And

38:30

even like having, I mean, just

38:32

to be in, was it, what

38:34

year was it George Floyd was

38:37

murdered? Was that 2020? May 2020.

38:39

Just to, just to be in

38:41

a civil rights organization, Should we

38:43

monitor Black Lives Matter? Like it

38:45

seems like such an insane idea

38:47

for anyone to have. And you

38:49

can talk about what happened during

38:51

the protests and the rioting, but

38:53

I mean, for one, they should

38:55

know better than to just say

38:57

like, oh, Black Lives Matter is

38:59

an hierarchical organization that we can

39:02

somehow monitor if it's as if

39:04

it's like a nothing else than

39:06

a nebulous thing, but just to

39:08

have that level of paranoia. I

39:10

don't know, I've always speculated that

39:12

it's like, you know, they get

39:14

a lot of, they're a donor-driven

39:16

organization, right? Like, same as the

39:18

SPLC, so at some point, you're

39:20

going to take some marching orders

39:22

from the donor class, and if

39:24

this is something they're worried about,

39:26

then maybe, all right, maybe you

39:29

take a look at it. I

39:31

don't know. So the people who

39:33

have the biggest money, you know,

39:35

biggest amount of money, have the

39:37

most, potentially the most influence over

39:39

what ultimately, ultimately gets covered, and

39:41

what ultimately gets covered, and then

39:43

that can have a reactionary. 100%

39:45

and I'm sure they're gonna I'm

39:47

sure they're gonna Deny that up

39:49

and down right like who wouldn't

39:51

who wouldn't deny that but it's

39:54

also So like, of course, when

39:56

you're a non-profit, you need to

39:58

make money somewhere. And if your

40:00

donors are preoccupied or interested in

40:02

something, then maybe you take a

40:04

nudge in that direction. I don't

40:06

think us in the center on

40:08

extremism, I don't remember us ever

40:10

feeling that sense of direction, but

40:12

also we were always meant to

40:14

feel that our work with law

40:16

enforcement was super important. We knew

40:19

that it was something they used

40:21

with. the attracting new donors. So

40:23

like, you know, continuously churning out

40:25

law enforcement memos, continuously helping hops

40:27

was a big part of our

40:29

day, and I know that that

40:31

was being used in fundraising too.

40:33

Yeah, and like the generous interpretation

40:35

would be like, well, we'll look

40:37

into it so that we can

40:39

say nothing is there, but once

40:41

you start on a project like

40:44

that, just think you have to

40:46

acknowledge like once your product. you

40:48

know, once the email goes out

40:50

or once it leaves the organization,

40:52

you lose control over what happens

40:54

to it, right? So it makes

40:56

these kind of things have a

40:58

inherent risk, even if you know

41:00

the ADL or whatever other organization

41:02

is is compiling this kind of

41:04

information even if they have the

41:06

best intentions right there there is

41:09

a risk and also let's say

41:11

you're being told to look into

41:13

to like an anti-fascist group and

41:15

then you report that I didn't

41:17

find anything well did you not

41:19

find anything because it's not there

41:21

or did you not find anything

41:23

because you didn't look hard enough

41:25

like there's an implication that goes

41:27

with a paperwork that's like well

41:29

why did you guys look in

41:31

the first place which is why

41:33

I always thought that was a

41:36

little problematic and there was never

41:38

a point in which we the

41:40

investigative researchers had the power to

41:42

be like this is stupid we're

41:44

not going to look into this.

41:46

Now that may have changed but

41:48

when I was there if you

41:50

were told to look into something

41:52

you looked into it and then

41:54

you would write a report saying

41:56

I didn't find anything but the

41:58

report kind of is there, you

42:01

know. The Center on Extremism, as

42:03

you say, would go to pains

42:05

to say, you know, there's not

42:07

an equivalency between anti-fascists and the

42:09

types of movements that they mobilize

42:11

against. The leadership of the organization,

42:13

specifically Greenblatt, has been much less

42:15

careful, and even if he's not

42:17

making that equivocation on the violence,

42:19

has explicitly equivocated between the ideologies.

42:21

So comparing pro- Palestine protesters to

42:23

white supremacist, right? And really just

42:26

hamming up the both sides. He's

42:28

made several comments on national TV

42:30

that I find grossly defamatory comparing

42:32

pro- Palestine student groups to Hezbollah

42:34

alleging that their proxies for Iran,

42:36

which was condemned by more than

42:38

60 Muslim civil rights groups. Did

42:40

that play out during your time

42:42

at ADL? Did that ever create

42:44

conflicts? I mean, I can't remember

42:46

anything in specific, but there was

42:48

always, whenever Jonathan Greenblatt said something

42:51

about anything that touched on our

42:53

work, we would just be like,

42:55

oh my fucking God, like don't,

42:57

like he would mischaracterize stuff, he

42:59

would go off book, like sometimes

43:01

we would be expected to help

43:03

write statements, he just like didn't

43:05

give a shit, like, like, Jonathan

43:07

Greenblatt is, as with any CEO

43:09

of a, of a, of a

43:11

non-profit is his salesman first, right?

43:13

So he would just, we got

43:16

the sense that he would just

43:18

say whatever he felt like would

43:20

get the most attention, right? And

43:22

I think that's, again, I'm speculating,

43:24

but that feels a little bit

43:26

like why he's taking such a

43:28

hard turn against pro-Palestinian protesters these

43:30

days because if you're fundraising for

43:32

the ADL in 2018, 2019, 2020,

43:34

you have plenty of traditional threats.

43:36

against the Jews of the world,

43:38

right? Because there were Nazis on

43:40

every street corner on every weekend

43:43

that were brawls in the street.

43:45

It was just like, you could

43:47

use that. But 2024. 2025 is

43:49

a very different time. And the

43:51

threat from the far right does

43:53

it. It's different than it used

43:55

to be. Maybe it's not as

43:57

visceral. It's harder to fundraise on

43:59

it. So maybe you go find

44:01

a threat to Jews elsewhere. I

44:03

don't know. It's also it's fucking

44:05

hard to talk about this without

44:08

sounding like we're on an alt-right

44:10

podcast kind of thing. You know

44:12

what I mean? Yeah, I've tried

44:14

to go to pains to just.

44:16

firmly keep us out of that

44:18

territory. I mean, the ADL is

44:20

subject to all kinds of abuse

44:22

and conspiracy theories and lies. Yeah,

44:24

but really, really do not want

44:26

to contribute to that. You know,

44:28

I just want to counter that

44:30

though. I mean, obviously I am,

44:33

I'm certainly not running a Jewish

44:35

civil rights organization, or at least

44:37

nominally a civil rights organization. Yes.

44:39

But yeah, yeah, okay. So the

44:41

Palestinian, you know, the pro-Palestinian protesters,

44:43

you know, the people, the sort

44:45

of, the people standing up for

44:47

Gaza, etc. Yeah, they're out there.

44:49

I mean, but you also have

44:51

Elon Musk doing what, what we

44:53

all understand to be a Hitler

44:55

salute. You can, you can just

44:58

show a picture of that and

45:00

say anti-Semitism is everywhere and it's

45:02

not like there aren't. Well, it's

45:04

not like that threat isn't there.

45:06

And to be clear, it wasn't

45:08

an Arab who went in to

45:10

Tree of Life and murdered those

45:12

people, right? The threats to synagogues

45:14

and stuff like that, I mean,

45:16

a lot of that is coming

45:18

from white supremacist. So I don't

45:20

understand. And I know, you know,

45:23

so many more moderate Jewish people

45:25

are much more concerned about Elon

45:27

Musk doing what looks like a

45:29

Roman salute than they are these

45:31

protests. Now these are people in

45:33

my friend circle and maybe they

45:35

don't have they don't have the

45:37

type of money to donate Or

45:39

whatever or the interest but at

45:41

the same time it's not like

45:43

there aren't like very clear things

45:45

you can put forward as examples

45:47

of white supremacist anti-Semitism exploding it

45:50

is out there it's still out

45:52

there it may be like that

45:54

that you know the tree of

45:56

life shooting has happened a while

45:58

ago but it's out there very

46:00

much so and and that to

46:02

me makes me think it has

46:04

more to do with ideology than

46:06

donations and of course you know

46:08

I can't prove that one way

46:10

or another but that's just my

46:12

my my my gut on this.

46:15

I think it has to do

46:17

with both because I think that

46:19

the the foundational principle of the

46:21

ADL now like their main idea

46:23

is to support and defend the

46:25

state of Israel right like the

46:27

the Zionist project and like that's

46:29

their ideology but that's also what

46:31

they fundraise on and I think

46:33

that the the musk thing right

46:35

like he could do yes it's

46:37

obviously a Hitler salute but he

46:40

also kind of supports their wider

46:42

policy on Israel. Like he's, he's,

46:44

he may be an anti-Semite, but

46:46

he's our anti-Semite. And I do

46:48

think that Trump could say whatever

46:50

he wants to about the Jews

46:52

or the Holocaust or whatever, but

46:54

as long as, you know, Netanyahu

46:56

was another one who supported, who

46:58

came to Musk's aid after that,

47:00

right? Because they need them for

47:02

the, the, the, the big project,

47:05

which is the state of Israel.

47:07

So I think they're willing to

47:09

swallow some camels. So, I mean,

47:11

that's the sort of the complication

47:13

of this moment right now, right?

47:15

Like, I mean, Trump's comments about

47:17

Chuck Schumer, I don't know if

47:19

you saw that or whatever, but

47:21

basically Trump was like reiterated that

47:23

the claim he made in a

47:25

debate where it's like, he's, he's

47:27

ultimately a Palestinian, which is of

47:30

course, obviously, anti-Arab racism, okay, like,

47:32

where it's just like, that's an

47:34

insult, right, like, it's like, it's

47:36

like, you know, he's using that

47:38

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:40

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:42

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:44

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:46

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:48

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:50

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:52

like, like, like, like, like, like,

47:54

like, like, like, like, like, like

47:57

It's also anti-Semitic also because you

47:59

are kind of just saying that...

48:01

like this guy who is not

48:03

a Jew is the ultimate judge

48:05

of who is Jewish and who

48:07

is not Jewish. And that is

48:09

like extremely, you know, that's extremely

48:11

belittling and disgusting. Unless you look

48:13

at Trump and say, well, here

48:15

is somebody who can help me

48:17

ideologically. Yeah. But I think sort

48:19

of parsing how. The how this

48:22

makes no sense. So it makes

48:24

no sense that Jonathan Greenblatt should

48:26

should defend must for doing a

48:28

hit resolute. It's kind of the

48:30

same thing as saying to Republicans

48:32

like, oh, you guys used to

48:34

be so pro-constitution and Trump is

48:36

shitting all of the Constitution. And

48:38

yet we're all for it. There's

48:40

like, of course they are because

48:42

these are our guys now, like

48:44

they get us what we want.

48:47

So. Yes, it makes no sense

48:49

kind of like ideologically speaking, but

48:51

out of like a real politic

48:53

sense, it makes complete sense because

48:55

it gets them where they need

48:57

to go, you know, which is

48:59

why it's such a bummer because

49:01

the ADL has done some really

49:03

good work. They've done some shitty

49:05

things, but they've also done some

49:07

valuable things throughout the years. And

49:09

to see them now just kind

49:12

of like throw absolutely any remnant

49:14

shred of integrity away for this

49:16

thing. It's like... It's a huge

49:18

bummer. Yeah, in January of last

49:20

year there was a story that,

49:22

you know, staff at ADL are

49:24

not happy about this. It really

49:26

is, you know, it is the

49:28

leadership of the organization and its

49:30

priorities in this moment. I, you

49:32

know, like you Vegas, I have

49:34

friends that work there who are

49:37

great people, great people would do

49:39

anything for you and they don't

49:41

like this. No, they hate it.

49:43

But even now, even though there's

49:45

like a micro industry on tracking

49:47

hate or whatever these days, the

49:49

jobs are slim. You know, it's

49:51

like, well, where are they going

49:53

to go? They need health insurance

49:55

and they need a paycheck. And

49:57

until they figure it out, they're

49:59

just kind of like stuck watching

50:01

the train that they're on, like,

50:04

wobble on the tracks. Because these

50:06

political priorities have like taken the

50:08

front seat at this organization. And

50:10

that's completely, yeah, I mean, I

50:12

won't begrudge anyone a paycheck with

50:14

benefits because America is brutal and

50:16

and fucking hard. But what the

50:18

ADL is doing as well is

50:20

like when. last did any of

50:22

our journalist friends reach out to

50:24

the center on extremism for a

50:26

comment on anything right like they

50:29

don't have you know they've lost

50:31

credibility on on Israel Palestine stuff

50:33

but like also they've been lapped

50:35

and eclipsed by other experts who

50:37

people take seriously when it comes

50:39

to right wing extremism as well

50:41

so they're doubling down on this

50:43

I guess they're doubling down on

50:45

their cop collaboration and they're doubling

50:47

down on becoming this political organization

50:49

because no one's taking them seriously

50:51

on any of the other stuff

50:54

it seems. Yeah I mean I

50:56

would also add it's not just

50:58

that people are not reaching out

51:00

to them for information because the

51:02

information is not good there's also

51:04

I think people are not reaching

51:06

out to them because they have

51:08

their brand has become completely toxic.

51:10

ADL has had problems you know

51:12

that go way back before my

51:14

knowledge of things but You know,

51:16

I, again, I would, I would

51:19

reach out to them for comments

51:21

about particular things around anti-Semitism before

51:23

I worked for SBLC and, and

51:25

I needed those type of comments.

51:27

And I, I don't think I

51:29

could ever do that now if

51:31

I were in, I don't, I

51:33

don't think there's anything where I

51:35

would feel comfortable putting their name

51:37

into my story. It's, it, it,

51:39

in part because of the, the

51:41

way they, uh, Jonathan Greenblad talks

51:44

about Arabs. right? And the way

51:46

he talks about the way he

51:48

talks about the genocide that's going

51:50

on, it makes it so toxic

51:52

that it's difficult to to publicly

51:54

associate with them. And that's kind

51:56

of the way. That's the way

51:58

I sort of feel about it

52:00

now, which is where it's just

52:02

very, like, you know, it's very

52:04

upsetting to deal with that stuff.

52:06

And I think I'm not the

52:08

only person, whether they're willing to

52:11

say it out loud or not,

52:13

who just will not, like, put

52:15

their name next to ADL. But

52:17

it's also a shitty situation for

52:19

them to be an I imagine,

52:21

right, because these days, back when

52:23

I was covering the far right

52:25

that I was still. to a

52:27

large degree, a fringe movement of

52:29

ding dongs and Yahoo's in the

52:31

woods, right? Yeah, you were early.

52:33

And that was cut. It was

52:36

early, but now... If you cover

52:38

the far right, you also acknowledge

52:40

that it has moved into the

52:42

corridors of power, right? The far

52:44

right is in the White House,

52:46

it's in everywhere. It's in the

52:48

precincts, it's everywhere. Now, if you're

52:50

an organization like the ADL, who

52:52

wants to keep in with law

52:54

enforcement, who wants to keep in

52:56

with the state, with the regime,

52:58

with politicians, then you can say

53:01

that. You're basically a canary in

53:03

the coal mine who works for

53:05

the coal mine. So then you're

53:07

just like, I don't, like, I

53:09

don't, I don't, I don't know,

53:11

do I tweet now or like,

53:13

what do I, what do I

53:15

do? So it's like, they're in

53:17

this impossible position where they can't

53:19

truly report on right wing extremism

53:21

because that would be, that would

53:23

put them in a very uncomfortable

53:26

situation. So then what good are

53:28

they? So to wrap things up,

53:30

you closed your piece by talking

53:32

about how the ADL has jumped

53:34

in with the Trump administration, something

53:36

that is especially egregious on the

53:38

tale of Kale's arrest, which the

53:40

ADL applauded in no uncertain terms.

53:42

They said, oh, well, we hope

53:44

he gets due process like anybody

53:46

else, which it doesn't really seem

53:48

like he is but but otherwise

53:51

you know cheered it on just

53:53

completely insane it's the opposite of

53:55

that poem everyone talks about like

53:57

first they came for the socialist

53:59

but I didn't say anything right

54:01

like they not only didn't say

54:03

anything they just they fucking jumped

54:05

up and up and down and

54:07

cheered it's talking they congratulate the

54:09

Trump administration yeah yeah first they

54:11

came for the socialist and I

54:13

high-fived them and gave them a

54:15

reef Yeah, I mean, I realize

54:18

we've got through this entire interview

54:20

without really mentioning that they congratulated

54:22

the Trump administration publicly. So it's

54:24

not only the anti-Arab racism that

54:26

I perceive for sure, but like,

54:28

they also just congratulated the Trump

54:30

administration and the Trump administration put

54:32

Darren Beaty in the State Department,

54:34

right? The Trump administration has, like,

54:36

you know, has legitimate hateemongers. like

54:38

positioned all over the board. It's

54:40

like, it's like a pro ball

54:43

game. It's, you know, and they

54:45

congratulated them on, congratulate them on

54:47

literally anything is so mind-blowing, much

54:49

less this. But I mean, Jonathan

54:51

Greenblads, say what you will about

54:53

him, he knows where his bread

54:55

is buttered, right? He's not a,

54:57

he's not a stupid guy. He

54:59

knows what's in the best interest

55:01

of the current iteration of the

55:03

ADL project. And right now, the

55:05

best way forward for him is

55:08

to... move into a peer to

55:10

terror up inside Trump's asshole and

55:12

just kind of live there for

55:14

a bit. But it's especially glaring,

55:16

I think, just because the ADL

55:18

has long promoted itself as a

55:20

civil rights organization. And here they

55:22

are cheering for something that seems

55:24

to defy anybody's common conception of

55:26

civil rights. They have fighting hate

55:28

for good trademarked they call themselves

55:30

the largest or like the biggest

55:33

most successful anti-hate organization in the

55:35

world they waxed poetic about civil

55:37

rights but you assert in your

55:39

piece they don't really care about

55:41

civil right those are my words

55:43

right the ADL doesn't care about

55:45

civil rights. If you ask the

55:47

ADL, they will say something completely

55:49

different. And you see the way

55:51

they spin Killeel's arrest, which is,

55:53

you know, he was a profound

55:55

danger to not only Jews everywhere,

55:58

but to the American nation because

56:00

he spread anti-Semitism. So I'm sure

56:02

if you ask them, they'll be

56:04

like, well, he broke our civil

56:06

rights first. He is a danger

56:08

and he needs to be taken

56:10

out. What they're doing is, you

56:12

know, we're still protecting against hate

56:14

everywhere. mostly because Mamud Kale hates

56:16

us with such a burning passion.

56:18

So they'll, like, they haven't abandoned

56:20

what they think is civil rights

56:22

or however they want to define

56:25

civil rights, but I think it's

56:27

up to the rest of us

56:29

to be like, that's not, you

56:31

can't pick and choose who you

56:33

arrest and detain without due course,

56:35

but. Let's say, all that were

56:37

true even. I'm not saying it's

56:39

true. But let's say even that

56:41

we're true about him. Again, I'm

56:43

not saying that. Let's say the

56:45

big problem here is that, is

56:47

that ultimately, it asks you, their

56:50

line of thinking, ask you to

56:52

just pretend that, you know, what

56:54

apparently is about over 60,000 people

56:56

have not been killed, right, in

56:58

these horrific bombings, hospitals and everything

57:00

else, since, you know, fall of

57:02

2023. Right? It's sort of like,

57:04

they're sort of like, you're just

57:06

supposed to be like, oh, yes,

57:08

right? Like it's just sort of

57:10

like, yeah, it's all happening in

57:12

a vacuum, right? There's all these

57:15

protesters just there, kind of, they

57:17

just showed up one day, and

57:19

they're just mad, and they're just

57:21

saying, they're just waving Palestinian flags,

57:23

like, like, the other stuff is

57:25

not happening. It's almost the same

57:27

logic. what the anti-fascists are maybe

57:29

trying to say or trying to

57:31

protest, right? It's also like, oh.

57:33

they came and they had a

57:35

bike lock and they had this

57:37

and that and the other thing,

57:40

right? And then Andy will sort

57:42

of cut out the part of

57:44

like, yeah, they're responding to a

57:46

white supremacist group who is marching.

57:48

They are responding to cops killing

57:50

somebody who is unarmed. That part,

57:52

it's like they're cutting out the

57:54

main reason why the protests even

57:56

exist in the first place. Well,

57:58

of course, because you can't acknowledge

58:00

that. Palestinians have a right to

58:02

live. You have to make them

58:05

out to be collaborators with Hamas

58:07

or at best, yeah, we're upset

58:09

that we bombed this hospital, but

58:11

those ding dang Hamas fighters kept

58:13

using them as shields. So like

58:15

you can't, you can't acknowledge the

58:17

innocence of all these 60,000 people

58:19

that would, you know, that would

58:21

make them humans, which would be

58:23

very bad for your, for your

58:25

project. So yeah, I mean, that's

58:27

the frustrating chat we have with.

58:29

everyone these days and our uncles

58:32

and everyone is like no they're

58:34

not Hamas all like these tens

58:36

of thousands of children aren't Hamas

58:38

fighters but that's you know that's

58:40

what the ADL is kind of

58:42

doing to and the Trump organization

58:44

and everyone who is supports Israel

58:46

and this genocide is saying that

58:48

we're killing the bad people and

58:50

yeah there's some collateral damage unfortunately

58:52

but god damn it has to

58:54

be done on that note I

58:57

think If he good to close,

58:59

I'd like to get your thoughts.

59:01

Judith Levine wrote a column in

59:03

The Guardian, arguing that the Trump

59:05

administration is using this ostentious fight

59:07

against anti-Semitism as a shield, as

59:09

cover, for a broader war against

59:11

its political opponents that would include,

59:13

you know, just dissent, includes, you

59:15

know, Muslim. and Arab communities includes

59:17

immigrants, you know, and using these

59:19

sort of concerns about anti-Semitism, this,

59:22

which I think, you know, anybody,

59:24

it's like, oh, we want to

59:26

fight anti-Semitism, I think virtually. except

59:28

maybe the people who record the

59:30

podcast that we are desperately trying

59:32

not to emulate here would say

59:34

that's great that's a good thing

59:36

that's a noble cause but that

59:38

they are using it as window

59:40

dressing to do some terrible terrible

59:42

things that should alarm everybody regardless

59:44

of where they may fall on

59:47

the political spectrum and I'm curious

59:49

if you would agree with that

59:51

take and what you think, you

59:53

know, an organization like the ADL,

59:55

who, as you rightfully pointed out,

59:57

is the leading organization. When people

59:59

talk, they listen and take it

1:00:01

seriously. What may be a better

1:00:03

thing for a place like the

1:00:05

ADL to do? First of all,

1:00:07

this isn't a new thing under

1:00:09

Trump, right? The federal government didn't

1:00:12

start persecuting its enemies under Trump.

1:00:14

the the cop city force protesters

1:00:16

in in Georgia that was under

1:00:18

the Biden administration and they got

1:00:20

slapped with with a with terrorism

1:00:22

additions to their to their charges

1:00:24

a lot of them. I was

1:00:26

just talking to my friend Andy

1:00:28

earlier this morning who was arrested

1:00:30

and put in prison on terrorism

1:00:32

charges for protesting animal testing. So

1:00:34

like this whole idea of using

1:00:36

the justice system like that is

1:00:39

is not a new thing. I

1:00:41

mean what's new with Kaleo is

1:00:43

that they've dropped any pretense of

1:00:45

at least coming up with a

1:00:47

law like they had you know

1:00:49

basically when they arrested him that

1:00:51

said they said well we'll think

1:00:53

of something right we don't fully

1:00:55

know why but we'll think of

1:00:57

something so i think this is

1:00:59

you know it's it's been an

1:01:01

ongoing thing from both republicans and

1:01:04

democrats in power to to target

1:01:06

the left to target marginalized groups

1:01:08

to target the solidarity movement and

1:01:10

make make us afraid and fearful

1:01:12

and alone and all that stuff

1:01:14

I mean I don't I don't

1:01:16

know what the ADL could possibly

1:01:18

be different do different because at

1:01:20

this point they've gone really far

1:01:22

down this road and it would

1:01:24

mean a complete rejiggering of what

1:01:26

they stand for and that's been

1:01:29

true for a long time. I

1:01:31

remember a few years ago I

1:01:33

didn't interview with a lawyer at

1:01:35

the ACLU and I told her

1:01:37

that I used to be at

1:01:39

the ADL and she was just

1:01:41

like, Jesus, fucking Christ, those guys

1:01:43

are fucked. So I don't know,

1:01:45

I think the ADL is carrying

1:01:47

water for this administration because what

1:01:49

else are they going to do?

1:01:51

Like they share a common goal.

1:01:54

Oh Vegas, thanks for joining us

1:01:56

this week talking a little bit

1:01:58

about your experience and sharing some

1:02:00

of your thoughts on where the

1:02:02

ADL's at today. You've got a

1:02:04

sub stack that has a great

1:02:06

name. What happens in Vegas? It's

1:02:08

clever, right? Because my name is

1:02:10

Vegas. So it's called What Happens

1:02:12

in Vegas. We love a little

1:02:14

bit of word play here. Tell

1:02:16

us about that, what you're hoping

1:02:19

to do with it. You launched

1:02:21

it fairly recently. Yeah, I mean,

1:02:23

this is really, it's tangentially, I

1:02:25

guess, connected to the work I

1:02:27

used to do. I mean, because

1:02:29

I used to cover Nazis and

1:02:31

conspirators, like shitty people forever. And

1:02:33

a while ago, like, I realized

1:02:35

that I had this kind of

1:02:37

like epiphany that. Okay, what do

1:02:39

all these guys share? And it's

1:02:41

like, oh, I think a lot

1:02:43

of them are just like really

1:02:46

lonely and really sad and really

1:02:48

upset, which isn't to make excuses,

1:02:50

but I think like loneliness drives

1:02:52

us to some really shitty places

1:02:54

sometimes. And then, you know, I

1:02:56

used to be advice and then

1:02:58

vice went away and then this

1:03:00

fall, I was sitting there thinking

1:03:02

about, fuck, I lost a lot

1:03:04

of friends as well, like I

1:03:06

thought they were real friends and

1:03:08

then they were work friends and

1:03:11

I realize that like I'm like,

1:03:13

But maybe a culture or a

1:03:15

church I could join that so

1:03:17

so I've come up with a

1:03:19

project to To kind of try

1:03:21

to look at my own loneliness

1:03:23

and figure out America's loneliness at

1:03:25

the same time. So it's just

1:03:27

a repository for me to think

1:03:29

about about these

1:03:31

things and write about the

1:03:33

about I things that

1:03:36

I that I

1:03:38

care about. I

1:03:40

think it's cool. better

1:03:42

than, I'm it sounds

1:03:44

better right now writing

1:03:46

a feature right

1:03:48

now about AI chat

1:03:50

bots, and it .I. chat

1:03:52

to me a And

1:03:54

it sounds to

1:03:56

me a little

1:03:58

bit healthier than

1:04:01

that. That's similar.

1:04:03

You know know first

1:04:05

thing is thing

1:04:07

joining a community joining

1:04:09

community theater. better than

1:04:11

Nazis, maybe. Nazis, maybe.

1:04:13

Maybe. I depend on the

1:04:15

the production. I

1:04:17

realized that was

1:04:19

as bad bad. on

1:04:21

the production of

1:04:23

our town, to

1:04:26

be honest with

1:04:28

you. of

1:04:31

exactly. town to be

1:04:33

honest with you. Yeah, exactly.