0:02

This is Pored Over, a show

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about stories presented by the

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booksellers of Barnes & Noble.

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I'm Ewan Messer. I'm the producer

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and host of Pored Over. And

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Den Michelle Norris has been writing

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a novel for 14 years. It's

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finally here. It's called When the

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Harvest Comes. And it's a love

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story and a story about art

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and marriage and family. and lots

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of other things that we're not going

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to talk about because we are spoiler

0:32

free on the show as everyone knows.

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14 years to write this gorgeous

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book. Yeah. How does it feel to

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be, well, technically done? You

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haven't started the promotion yet,

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but technically you are done

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with the writing, my friend. I

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am done. It feels... wild. It's incredibly

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surreal. This book basically took up my

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entire adult life. I was always thinking

0:54

about it, even though I went through

0:56

long periods where sometimes I wasn't getting

0:58

much writing done. And that's because

1:00

I was attending to the business of

1:02

learning how to be an adult, learning

1:05

how to be an adult in New

1:07

York City, using the subway, learning how

1:09

to pay a bill on time, learning

1:11

how to set up utilities when I

1:13

moved, you know, building a career, making

1:15

a living, you know, finding. finding jobs,

1:17

building friendships, dating. I was doing all

1:19

the things that one does to live

1:21

a full life. And so there were

1:23

periods where I was writing furiously and

1:25

there were periods where it, you know,

1:27

sort of sadly had to take a back

1:29

seat. But I did it. I did it. And

1:31

here we are. And here we are. I'm so

1:33

pleased this book is out in the world. We

1:36

are going to keep to a tighter cat. You

1:38

have a very small cast in the book, but

1:40

we are going to keep just sort

1:42

of four main characters. Davis's dad,

1:44

the Reverend, and his sister, Olivia.

1:46

And it's so that we can avoid

1:49

giving anything away by accident. But I

1:51

want to start with Davis because I

1:53

love his voice. And I feel like

1:55

I haven't really met anyone like Davis

1:57

before. I mean, he's a dedication. a

2:00

musician and you made him a

2:02

viola player so maybe we start

2:04

with the instrument because it's kind

2:06

of old-fashioned. It is enormously old-fashioned

2:08

and it's an instrument that you

2:10

don't see that much portrayed anywhere

2:12

in sort of popular culture and

2:15

what's funny is that you know

2:17

I played the viola for many

2:19

years I started in the fourth

2:21

grade I went all the way

2:23

through college and for many years

2:25

I wanted to be a professional

2:27

viola list so It was a

2:30

big part of my life. And

2:32

so when I was writing this

2:34

book, I had no interest in

2:36

making Davis a violist. I at

2:38

first, I was like, absolutely not.

2:40

Like, it's too random. And I

2:42

didn't have a reason for it.

2:45

And I didn't have a reason

2:47

for it. And so for years,

2:49

I thought he was going to

2:51

be a cellist. You know, I

2:53

heard Elizabeth Strauss say once many

2:55

years ago. Is there anything more

2:57

in full than a cell? And

3:00

this was around the time that

3:02

I was just starting the book.

3:04

Let's make him a cellist and

3:06

I love the cello. And then

3:08

a few years later, I wanted

3:10

Davis's career to be working differently.

3:12

And so I was like, let's

3:15

make him more successful. Let's make

3:17

him a soloist and a star.

3:19

Let's make him a violinist and

3:21

a star. Let's make him a

3:23

violinist. And so when I completed

3:25

the first draft of the book,

3:28

he was a violinist. And so

3:30

when I completed the first draft

3:32

of the narrative, I had no

3:34

choice but to make a career.

3:36

Let's not. But I just, it

3:38

was funny when I was reading,

3:40

I was like, huh? I don't

3:43

think I've ever, like, it is

3:45

hard to capture music well on

3:47

the page. I will say that,

3:49

like, some novels do it exceptionally

3:51

well in some novels. You're like,

3:53

oh, this is a great idea

3:55

and it is not happening. Okay,

3:58

so we're going to put one

4:00

foot back in sort of, you

4:02

know, all respect to concert musicians,

4:04

but you know classical music doesn't

4:06

quite have the swing culturally that

4:08

it did in previous decades, right?

4:10

Like, I mean, yes, there are

4:13

great places to see amazing music.

4:15

I mean, especially, certainly if you

4:17

live in a major market, but

4:19

there are also secondary and tertiary

4:21

markets where you can find really

4:23

exceptional performances, but as like a

4:25

monoculture kind of thing, it's not

4:28

what it was. No, no, not

4:30

at all, not at all. It

4:32

was a unique choice, but I

4:34

love classical music and it just,

4:36

it just, I felt like it

4:38

worked, I felt like it fit

4:40

into the narrative, fit into the

4:43

character so well. And when I

4:45

look at my life and I

4:47

look at building a writing career,

4:49

I was never gonna not write

4:51

a book that dealt with classical

4:53

music heavily. It just, it just

4:55

couldn't happen. So this is the

4:58

one, I don't know that there

5:00

will be any others, but I

5:02

had so much fun. with those

5:04

pages and writing those sections. It

5:06

was a joy. And I also,

5:08

I mean, I grew up with

5:10

both of my parents keeping classical

5:13

on in the background, like you

5:15

would just sort of wander through

5:17

the house, other parents did, you

5:19

know, jazz or yield diamond, and

5:21

I had, you know, W.G.B.H. in

5:23

the background at all times. And

5:25

so I do kind of just

5:28

associate it with being home and

5:30

I've seen some great performances, but

5:32

I do sort of think of

5:34

it is a very sort of

5:36

intimate home experience, home experience. Because

5:38

I also grew up sort of

5:40

in a place where other people's

5:43

parents did that too. It was

5:45

just very normal. Yes, yes. Like

5:47

it was just a thing and

5:49

it's always sort of there in

5:51

the back of your brain. When

5:53

did Davis... I mean, you write

5:55

character first, I think. That's sort

5:58

of how I feel about it.

6:00

And I feel like Davis showed

6:02

up before Everett. Yes. And I

6:04

do, I love the messiness of

6:06

their relationship. I mean, we meet

6:08

them as they're getting married, and

6:10

it's... There's a lot of great

6:13

stuff and then there's a lot

6:15

of like, this is kind of

6:17

adorable because you don't put marriage

6:19

on a pedestal. Which I appreciate.

6:21

No. But let's talk about Davis.

6:23

And Davis, you know, shows up

6:25

from Ohio. He comes to New

6:28

York for his reasons. But he's

6:30

a really kind of original voice.

6:32

It is amazing. because that is

6:34

how I approached Davis. That is

6:36

how I wanted him to be

6:38

received from Jump. You're absolutely right.

6:40

He showed up first. His situation

6:43

showed up first. Everett showed up

6:45

right after him, but Everett took

6:47

a much longer time to get

6:49

a handle on. But with Davis,

6:51

I really wanted to capture a

6:53

certain amount of tenderness towards black

6:55

boyhood that I don't think we

6:58

see in literature enough. And I

7:00

wanted to capture it with a

7:02

character who was specifically queer, because

7:04

I think we don't see that

7:06

often enough. And I wanted to

7:08

write a character who could be

7:10

sort of tender and delicate and

7:13

soft, and, you know, really think

7:15

that he has moved past any

7:17

idea that there's anything wrong with

7:19

that. You know, I think we're

7:21

so inundated with those messages that

7:23

that's not okay. And I wanted

7:26

to write a character who... was

7:28

who thought he was past that

7:30

and then, you know, long-buried things

7:32

come up and he realizes maybe

7:34

he's not quite as past everything

7:37

as he thought he was. So

7:39

that was really interested and I

7:41

kept thinking a lot about Tony

7:43

Morrison and what she said about

7:45

how she approached writing the bluest

7:47

eye when she wanted to write

7:49

about the character who's like the

7:51

least taken seriously, the least cared

7:53

for the least protected in society.

7:55

And I thought... This character

7:58

is one of those characters. and

8:00

I want to write a book

8:02

that takes him and his experiences

8:04

and his memories and his traumas

8:06

and his joys seriously and centers

8:09

them. Yeah, and I think it's

8:11

important for all of us to

8:13

have that moment where a character

8:15

has to interrogate his own understanding

8:17

of his feelings. Like, male female,

8:19

like, plenty of us have discovered

8:21

new language. for talking about our

8:24

experience in the world, right? Like

8:26

this is the beauty of language,

8:28

it evolves, experience evolves, we find

8:30

ways to unfortunately label, but like

8:32

let's use that for want of

8:34

a better word at the moment.

8:37

But you can, you know, men

8:39

seem to struggle with this more

8:41

in some ways because we're kind

8:43

of like, we'll walk it off.

8:45

Like we're all sort of guilty

8:47

of teaching young boys to just

8:50

sort of walk it off. Like

8:52

what are you crying about? Why

8:54

do you have a much? And

8:56

then, of course, there might also

8:58

be women who pick up those

9:00

habits as well. You know, let's

9:02

not pretend that all of us

9:05

are in touch with our emotions,

9:07

but it's the evolution of Davis

9:09

that is really interesting to me

9:11

and the evolution of his relationship

9:13

with his sister, who is incredibly

9:15

accomplished, and I quite like Olivia,

9:18

she is, I would like to

9:20

hang out with Olivia more, but

9:22

that sibling relationship. I'm

9:24

not sure Davis knows exactly how

9:26

much it formed him as well,

9:28

because there's also a pretty significant

9:31

age gap between the two. There

9:33

is. That was also something that

9:35

I initially had no interest in

9:37

writing in and just sort of

9:39

worked its way into the narrative

9:41

very quickly. You know, Davis and

9:43

Olivia's relationship is one where I

9:45

was really interested in showcasing some

9:47

of Davis's flaws. his mistakes, some

9:49

of the ways in which he

9:51

may have sort of jumped the

9:54

gun. writing someone off a little

9:56

bit, someone who maybe didn't need

9:58

to be written off. And he

10:00

doesn't realize, towards the end, I

10:02

think he starts to get there,

10:04

but he doesn't realize how much

10:06

she shaped who he was. I

10:08

just think he doesn't get it.

10:10

I've always been interested in the

10:12

ways in which young people, you

10:14

know, people who are new to

10:17

adulthood, are unaware of the ways

10:19

in which they've been shaped and

10:21

formed by the older people around

10:23

them. And I don't mean to

10:25

suggest that I was always aware

10:27

of it, but you know, I

10:29

grew up at a home where

10:31

I'm the youngest of four kids.

10:33

My parents had me when they

10:35

were 41 and 50. My siblings

10:37

are 17, 15, and 10 years

10:40

older than me. And so I

10:42

was always aware of my youth

10:44

in this context of people who

10:46

are much older than me. I

10:48

was always interested in the porousness

10:50

of that and what got lost

10:52

in translation. moving between all of

10:54

us. And so this was my

10:56

opportunity to really dive into that

10:58

and hope that I could find

11:00

a way for these two to

11:02

kind of find their way back

11:05

to each other as well. Without

11:07

Olivia stepping in to be mom,

11:09

which I find usually the sibling

11:11

relationship to me, it's a fun

11:13

one to read about because it

11:15

is as much as, you know,

11:17

you can have siblings in the

11:19

same family who have very different

11:21

memories of things. Like, wait, were

11:23

we in the same, I don't

11:25

understand, but it is also really

11:28

hard to hide stuff from your

11:30

siblings for the exact same reason,

11:32

because even if you don't remember

11:34

the thing, you can't fundamentally hide

11:36

who you are from a sibling,

11:38

because they'll just sniff it out.

11:40

And be like, uh-uh. Yeah, they're

11:42

better than the evolution. Yeah. Yeah,

11:44

they're better than bomb sniffing dogs.

11:46

They just, they always know and

11:48

they will call you out and

11:51

call you out lovingly and they'll

11:53

do. quietly if it needs to

11:55

be quietly or covertly. I think

11:57

this is especially true with queerness.

11:59

But yeah, no, I was so

12:01

interested in all of that. We

12:03

need to talk about Ohio, though,

12:05

and not just Tony Morrison's Ohio.

12:07

We need to talk about your

12:09

Ohio. I don't know it well.

12:11

I don't. But I do feel

12:14

like, I mean, I'm thinking of,

12:16

you know, honeyfibderkebe and, you know,

12:18

Saeed Jones, spent some time. Columbus

12:20

and whatnot. I do think there

12:22

is something about the place, Tony

12:24

Morrison aside, that factors into books

12:26

and words and culture in a

12:28

way that I wouldn't have necessarily

12:30

expected. I want to talk about

12:32

your Ohio. I want to talk

12:34

about how we got to the

12:36

Ohio in the book, but also

12:39

your Ohio. It's funny. Ohio and

12:41

Cleveland in particular, because that's the

12:43

part of Ohio where I'm from.

12:45

I have realized in the last

12:47

few years are deeply, deeply important

12:49

to me in central to who

12:51

I am. And it's shaped, there

12:53

are ways in which it has

12:55

absolutely shaped my worldview. And one

12:57

of the things that I love

12:59

about Ohio and that I'm interested

13:02

in exploring in my body of

13:04

work is that you, everything is

13:06

there and everyone is there. When

13:08

I, when I was, in high

13:10

school and I was playing the

13:12

viola very seriously. One of my

13:14

conductors said that the reason why

13:16

like really important famous composers like

13:18

Beethoven, like Brahms, they all played

13:20

the viola and that was their

13:22

favorite instrument to play. I didn't,

13:25

I had no idea. They played,

13:27

many of them played many instruments,

13:29

but many of them would talk

13:31

about how the viola was their

13:33

favorite instrument to play and the

13:35

reason was because it was in

13:37

the center of the sound. And

13:39

if you played the viola. you

13:41

could hear everything that was happening.

13:43

in the symphony. And that's why

13:45

it was so important, and it

13:48

plays such an important role in

13:50

terms of the classical music that

13:52

we have. And I liken that

13:54

to what it's like to be

13:56

in the Midwest and to be

13:58

in Ohio. You hear everything from

14:00

every angle, from every point of

14:02

view, you experience every kind of

14:04

person. Loudly, you will be in

14:06

pockets where you feel. like you're

14:08

in the deserts of Arizona, you're

14:10

not, you're never actually in a

14:13

desert in Ohio, but you'll feel

14:15

like you are culturally. And I

14:17

think there's something beautiful about that,

14:19

and there's something so great about

14:21

that, the fact that this place

14:23

in the middle of the country

14:25

can be a meeting place for

14:27

all kinds of people, can live

14:29

together really beautifully. And that's not

14:31

to say that everything is harmonious

14:33

in Ohio all the time. It's

14:36

not, I am deeply ashamed of...

14:38

a lot of what's happening politically

14:40

there, although also there's great things

14:42

that are happening politically there and

14:44

there's important resistance that's happening. But

14:46

I just say that to say

14:48

that you get a taste of

14:50

a real taste of everything and

14:52

not just a sampling, but a

14:54

real taste and that a real

14:56

taste and that, and that. And

14:59

so the Ohio that's in this

15:01

book, the Cleveland that's in this

15:03

book, is just one, one version

15:05

of it that I know, but

15:07

I know many of them, and

15:09

I hope that over a course

15:11

of my life and my life

15:13

and my life and my career,

15:15

I get to write many of

15:17

life and my career, in order

15:19

to write about Cleveland? Yes, absolutely.

15:21

I had to, I had to,

15:24

and when I first started writing,

15:26

I had no real interest in

15:28

writing Cleveland, I set things in

15:30

the area because I knew it,

15:32

but there was no intention, it

15:34

was sort of a placeholder. And,

15:36

you know, most of this book

15:38

takes place in New York and

15:40

on the East Coast, but it

15:42

still feels distinctly Ohioan to me

15:44

because I've infused all of that

15:47

into it, but I absolutely had

15:49

to leave Ohio for many reasons.

15:51

You know whether or not I'll

15:53

return. Ohio and live there, but

15:55

I feel completely entitled and and

15:57

like it's okay. to write about

15:59

it because I lived there from

16:01

the age of one until the

16:03

age of 18. I do think

16:05

Place also gets into you whether

16:07

you want it to or not.

16:10

I have some leftover things from

16:12

places I have not lived in

16:14

in a really long time. And,

16:16

you know, I think all of

16:18

it sort of ends up sticking

16:20

itself to our DNA. in

16:23

ways that we may not necessarily expect.

16:25

I do think though, it makes, I

16:27

like the idea of Davis being a

16:29

transplant to New York. And part of

16:32

the Davis that we experience and his

16:34

story, I don't think could have happened

16:36

if he hadn't, it's not just that

16:39

he found his way to New York,

16:41

but also who he is and fundamentally

16:43

how he approaches art and relationships. all

16:46

of the things that make a novel,

16:48

a novel. I mean, that interiority. Although

16:50

you really did need to write this

16:52

in the third person, this wouldn't, I

16:55

don't think this would have necessarily worked.

16:57

I was playing with the idea actually

16:59

as I was rereading and I was

17:02

like, oh, you know, I think this

17:04

really does have to be a close

17:06

third. Thank you. I think so too.

17:09

I tried. I tried first person. At

17:11

one point, it didn't, and it didn't

17:13

work. It fizzled out quickly. One thing

17:16

I am good at as a writer,

17:18

I know pretty quickly when I try

17:20

something, if it's not working. It takes

17:22

a couple days, a couple pages, and

17:25

I'm like, oh, this isn't the right

17:27

path, usually. So I'm able to stop

17:29

those quickly, but it had to be

17:32

third person. Yeah, you've worked as an

17:34

editor. You're currently the editor-in-chief of electric

17:36

literature, and if you don't know electric

17:39

literature, please go check it out. You

17:41

do really interesting smart stuff with a

17:43

really wide range of voices, but now

17:46

you're on the other side. I mean,

17:48

here's your novel and you had to

17:50

hand it off to someone to edit.

17:52

And it does, I'm sorry, it does

17:55

change the process and really everyone needs

17:57

an editor. I write miles of copy

17:59

and I still, like everyone needs... an

18:02

editor. Like I can't, like everyone needs

18:04

an editor. But I do want to

18:06

talk about the intersection of your day

18:09

job and your, you know, now launched

18:11

book career because they are, it's a

18:13

similar set of muscles, sure, but it's

18:16

not the exact same. It is not.

18:18

It's not. I find that they help

18:20

each other. I spent many years working

18:22

in a totally different field for my

18:25

day job, making my living elsewhere and

18:27

all of my writing and my editorial

18:29

pursuits were done on the side. And

18:32

that was fine. That was fine. I

18:34

survived. I did it. But when I

18:36

got the electric lit job, it really

18:39

changed my life because what it did

18:41

was the real goal. When I decided

18:43

I wanted to try being a writer,

18:46

which was right after I graduated college,

18:48

I wrote a short story over the

18:50

summer and I was like. This is

18:52

what I want to do with my

18:55

life. And it was awful. The short

18:57

story was awful. I immediately read it.

18:59

And I was like, this is terrible.

19:02

But I loved doing it. So I'm

19:04

just going to have to figure out

19:06

how to get better. And that's how

19:09

I went about it. So I'm just

19:11

going to have to figure out how

19:13

to get better. And that's like how

19:15

I went about it. But the goal

19:18

is to figure out how to get

19:20

published. I'm going to try, I'm going

19:22

to write. was to be able to

19:25

organize my life around writing and storytelling

19:27

and books and words. And that was

19:29

the guiding principle. And so when I

19:32

got the job at Electric Lit by

19:34

that time, you know, I had an

19:36

agent, this book was like almost done.

19:39

And so I was like, you know,

19:41

I have an agent, this book was

19:43

like almost done. And so I was

19:45

like, you know, I have a fighting

19:48

chance of being an author, but I

19:50

had already been editing at all these

19:52

literary, I'd edited for four previous career.

19:55

and kind of shut off that part

19:57

of my brain and fully devote myself

19:59

to this work, was really amazing. And,

20:02

you know, one thing about being an

20:04

editor and being a writer. is that

20:06

they both, for me at least, create

20:09

a real sense of humility in the

20:11

way that I approach both, because I

20:13

understand where the editors, I understand where

20:15

my editors are coming from, and the

20:18

realities that they have to deal with

20:20

that maybe don't always, are not always

20:22

attractive to a super creative, artistic mind.

20:25

Like I get all that stuff, right?

20:27

And I also get where the writers

20:29

coming from, because I experience that. And

20:32

I can have compassion for both and

20:34

really kind of trying to work with

20:36

people. by meeting them where they are,

20:39

because I understand where they are. And

20:41

I think that makes for a person

20:43

who approaches just both positions with a

20:45

real sense of like, here's my part,

20:48

now let's work together to make this

20:50

as great as it can be, you

20:52

know? You mentioned a couple of literary

20:55

influences. I mean, you and I share

20:57

a love of Elizabeth Stroud. And Tony

20:59

Morrison is of like. The Queen. Full

21:02

stop. Tony Morrison, period. But I want

21:04

to talk about other literary influences. You

21:06

do have an MFA. And an MFA

21:08

will expose you to writers that you

21:11

may not necessarily stumble across if you're,

21:13

shall we say, doing your own MFA,

21:15

right? Right. Which is possible, listen, MFA

21:18

is one route. to doing the thing

21:20

and it's not for everyone and it

21:22

does work for lots of folks when

21:25

you find the right place to be.

21:27

But so I remain neutral on MFA

21:29

or not. If it works for you

21:32

fabulous, but I want to talk about

21:34

literary influences because there is sort of

21:36

a not just an old-fashioned riff. to

21:38

the classical music and the viola and

21:41

there's some structural stuff that is sort

21:43

of very classically an American novel. Yes.

21:45

So influences. Influences. Let's talk about how.

21:48

Dan became Dan the novelist. I mean,

21:50

there are so many, there are so

21:52

many, and there are one, there are

21:55

influences I think you see in this

21:57

book and there influences that you wouldn't

21:59

see, but in terms of thinking about

22:02

the MFA, you know, my MFA is

22:04

actually the first place where I read

22:06

fiction by James Baldwin. Yeah, I had

22:08

never read his fiction before. I had

22:11

read his nonfiction, I read some of

22:13

his essays in some of my coursework

22:15

in college in religion classes and English

22:18

classes, but I had not read his

22:20

fiction shown to me by a really

22:22

wonderful professor at Sarah Lawrence named Mary

22:25

Morris, and she had a huge impact

22:27

on my career, and she was like,

22:29

you've got to be reading James Baldwin.

22:32

And so I read Sunny's Blues, which

22:34

of course, of course, completely. stole my

22:36

heart. I read that story every year.

22:38

I reread that entire book every year.

22:41

I'm going to meet the man. That

22:43

fine story in the collection, the title

22:45

story, going to meet the man. Like

22:48

that talk about one, writing across difference

22:50

and talk about two, just like high

22:52

drama. That was the first time I

22:55

took a book and threw it across

22:57

the room. And I was like, this

22:59

is wild. So that it was also

23:02

the first place where I was exposed

23:04

to James Salter. and the novel light

23:06

years, which was a huge influence specifically

23:08

on this book and my approach to

23:11

marriage, intimacy, domesticity, sex writing. He was

23:13

really influential for me in that way.

23:15

And then after that, you know, in

23:18

those early years of being in New

23:20

York, I was just like, you know,

23:22

diving into reading books. I was working,

23:25

I was reading, I was reading, I

23:27

was writing a little bit. But that

23:29

first year after my MFA, I didn't

23:31

get a lot of writing done. There's

23:34

a novel that came out in 2013.

23:36

that I read in 2014 called God

23:38

Must Go by the writer Taiy Selassie.

23:41

Oh, I know that book. It was

23:43

a disparate book back in the day.

23:45

I love that book and I love

23:48

time. Waiting for her to, I think

23:50

she's doing so much other stuff that

23:52

we might not. get another novel, but

23:55

I'm just like, hi. Yeah, me too.

23:57

I'm hoping, I'm hoping that book, it

23:59

was like my life stopped when I

24:01

picked up, picked up that book, and

24:04

I just, I, I seriously read it

24:06

for three days, and then I got

24:08

towards the end and had to stop

24:11

because I wasn't ready for it to

24:13

end. But as I read it, two

24:15

things happened, I was like, well, you

24:18

know what this reminds me of The

24:20

God of Small Things by Arandadi Roy.

24:22

And I went and found an interview

24:25

she gave, or she talked about how

24:27

she only read a few books while

24:29

she was writing Gana Must Go, and

24:31

one of them was the god of

24:34

small things. And I was like, I

24:36

knew it. So that was like, okay,

24:38

my really instincts are good. And I

24:41

need to know that as a writer.

24:43

But it just made me realize that

24:45

I needed to stop everything with my

24:48

own novel, which I wasn't that far

24:50

into. I was maybe 50 pages into

24:52

it. And I needed to completely rewrite

24:55

it. about the fun that I could

24:57

have with sentences and with voices. I

24:59

was writing totally utilitarian sentences that were

25:01

boring me and I was becoming bored.

25:04

And if there's one thing about when

25:06

the harvest comes, I do not think

25:08

it's boring. I do not think it's

25:11

boring to read, it wasn't boring to

25:13

write. But I had to completely start

25:15

rewriting everything from scratch so that I

25:18

could write the kinds of sentences that

25:20

would drive me through the process of

25:22

the novel. And I did. And I

25:25

completely just restarted it in 2014. I

25:27

love the idea that it's because Ghana

25:29

must go as part of your literary

25:31

education. That book delights me to known.

25:34

And it's been a really long time

25:36

since I've read it. But I just,

25:38

there are times, especially when you're a

25:41

bookseller, where you get to pick something

25:43

up and you're like, oh, hi, where

25:45

have you been all of my life?

25:48

Yeah. And you know, I'm so delighted

25:50

hearing you say that you were reading

25:52

Baldwin's fiction. I mean, Baldwin's fiction for

25:54

me actually was the first interject, but

25:57

I was an adolescent reading it and

25:59

this is, you know, back around the

26:01

time that light bulbs were invented. And

26:04

another. country, Matt, like, that's still kind

26:06

of, you know, knocks that, just that

26:08

opening where Rufus is, you know, in

26:11

Times Square and Giovanni's room and go

26:13

tell it on the mountain. And it's,

26:15

it's, it's, it's really, I'm always delighted

26:18

when I hear other people saying, and

26:20

this happened actually at one of our

26:22

stores in California, I was in Santa

26:24

Monica, and this customer was picking up

26:27

Beel Street off the shelf, like, oh,

26:29

that's so good. That's so good. That

26:31

is so good. So, so good. Because

26:34

I mean reading Baldwin for the first

26:36

time and your head explodes yeah right

26:38

and then you can go back to

26:41

it and you're just like okay my

26:43

head just exploded again and I've read

26:45

this before and that's the thing especially

26:48

with him where you're like oh oh

26:50

hi like I can't really think of

26:52

a minor Baldwin that makes me itch

26:54

I mean maybe there's some like late

26:57

movie criticism where I'm like mmm okay

26:59

I'm good yeah But the bulk of

27:01

the body of work, it's just like

27:04

there is always a surprise, which brings

27:06

me to you and the writing of

27:08

when the harvest comes. I mean, you're

27:11

saying that there was fun in the

27:13

sentences and the voice and everything else,

27:15

but did you also surprise yourself? Or

27:18

are you thinking, oh, I kind of

27:20

know what's going to happen? No, I

27:22

fully surprised myself. I find that, you

27:24

know, it's funny when I write a

27:27

short story. I kind of have a

27:29

handle on what's going to happen when

27:31

I sit down to write it. I

27:34

kind of know the length. I kind

27:36

of know what's going to be there.

27:38

I found that at least for the

27:41

process of writing this novel, I had

27:43

to let go of any sense of

27:45

planning and let myself just sort of

27:48

feel around the house and figure out

27:50

what was going to be there, whose

27:52

voices I was going to include, what

27:54

point of views I was going to

27:57

include. And so I absolutely surprised myself

27:59

and I would also say that this

28:01

novel really grew up with me alongside

28:04

me because it took so many years,

28:06

right? The arc of it again did

28:08

not reveal itself to me until... until

28:11

just a few years ago in terms

28:13

of where it was really going to

28:15

go. And I knew that I had

28:17

found it. I just sort of knew

28:20

that I had found it. So there

28:22

were surprises all along the way. I

28:24

was surprised at some of the political

28:27

stuff that's in the book. I was

28:29

surprised that I was surprised at what

28:31

happens with Ebert's family in the book.

28:34

All of that was a total surprise

28:36

for me. Dad gets more nuanced than

28:38

a dad might get, which I appreciate.

28:41

You do also put him into a

28:43

little car crash. That doesn't feel like

28:45

a spoiler. We meet him when he's

28:47

not in the best shape. But I

28:50

think it's important, especially the way you're

28:52

cutting sort of back and forth and

28:54

whatnot. Dad feels like a character we

28:57

think we've met before. Everett's

28:59

family feels like characters that we've

29:01

sort of met before and obviously

29:03

we're not going into detail. But

29:05

I want to talk about blowing

29:08

up expectations because I think you

29:10

do that quite nicely. Like, Olivia,

29:12

I just, we have to put

29:14

Olivia off to the site, I

29:16

just adore her. But, you know,

29:19

family's complicated. We get what we

29:21

get, right? And if we're lucky,

29:23

it's okay. But I want to

29:25

talk about blowing up expectations because

29:27

Everett's family. There are a couple

29:29

of... surprises. One, not so much,

29:32

but you know, a couple of

29:34

surprises, some family stuff. And the

29:36

Reverend, a couple of surprises. But

29:38

kind of not. Yeah, supporting caste,

29:40

family. Yeah. How'd you do it

29:42

without making them black and white?

29:45

But I'm bummed up. You know,

29:47

I always say that's why it

29:49

took 14 years. It took me

29:51

a long time to know them

29:53

and to know what I wanted

29:55

to be on. on the page

29:58

and also what about each character

30:00

could sort of live in the

30:02

white space on the page? What

30:04

could be implied? What a reader

30:06

could infer, but that is such

30:09

an important craft element as well.

30:11

But it was super, super important

30:13

to me to make sure that

30:15

I showed these characters, especially Davis's

30:17

family, as full human beings with

30:19

full capacity. to love, to be

30:22

able to think beyond the preconceived

30:24

notions that they think that they

30:26

should have about Davis and about

30:28

queerness, and to be able to

30:30

rise above that. And that comes

30:32

from, you know, when I was

30:35

in high school and I was

30:37

coming out at that time as

30:39

a gay boy. you know everyone

30:41

in my life who was not

30:43

in my family was like you're

30:46

so brave because your family is

30:48

so religious and you know they

30:50

were having some trouble accepting it

30:52

at the time and you know

30:54

at the time I was just

30:56

like this is just my reality

30:59

and this is my family like

31:01

this is just how it is

31:03

and I always understood how much

31:05

my parents loved me and how

31:07

much my family loved me and

31:09

I always understood how that was

31:12

guiding the way that they were

31:14

thinking about some things and that

31:16

is how I had grace and

31:18

patience. And you know, I feel

31:20

like that story isn't told often

31:22

enough. You know, we are so

31:25

often, I think as queer people,

31:27

we're told that we can and

31:29

should write people off. And I

31:31

also think there's something deeply black

31:33

about not writing people off, about

31:36

living in that porousness and trying

31:38

to pull people along with you.

31:40

You know, I have had times

31:42

even in my life in recent

31:44

years where some friends have been

31:46

like, you should cut this person

31:49

off. They're doing really problematic things

31:51

online. And I was like, we

31:53

don't do that. Like, I don't

31:55

do that. And I wanted to

31:57

write a. that gave voice to

31:59

that reality, even though arguably this

32:02

character has done that and is

32:04

having to live with the consequences?

32:06

Well, and living with the consequences,

32:08

yes, but also even just being

32:10

able to explore tenderness, right? Like

32:13

it's something that we seem as

32:15

a culture right now to not

32:17

be handling well, empathy, tenderness, all

32:19

of these things that are a

32:21

little scary and a little squishy.

32:23

And it's wild to say something

32:26

like tenderness can be scary, but

32:28

we are in a place as

32:30

a society where everyone's in self-protective

32:32

mode in a way that is

32:34

not necessarily helping. And this is

32:36

the beauty of having a book,

32:39

right? Like you can dive into

32:41

whatever you want and spend time

32:43

with people that you might not

32:45

otherwise know or have expectations for

32:47

their behavior. And then you're like,

32:49

wait a minute, what just, what?

32:52

Excuse me? Yep. Yep. Yep. I

32:54

mean, that's right. Like, there was

32:56

that study years ago about how

32:58

reading helps build your empathy muscle.

33:00

I'm like, yes, this is a

33:03

good thing. Let's do more of

33:05

this, please. And I know I

33:07

asked you at the top of

33:09

the show how it feels to

33:11

have the book out in the

33:13

world, but I mean, you are

33:16

this, we're taping slightly in advance

33:18

of publication. Do you miss these

33:20

characters, though? Are you are you?

33:23

I mean, I feel like the

33:25

book has a very sort of

33:27

concrete vibe to it, but for

33:29

you to have to put it

33:31

down and say, well, now I'm

33:33

going to think about the next

33:35

thing or now Electric Lit needs

33:37

this. I don't miss them yet.

33:39

Okay. But I think that because

33:41

I feel like I'm still in

33:43

it, even though I'm not writing

33:45

it, but I am. I know

33:47

that I will miss them and

33:49

I am starting to move into

33:51

the next. novel, so I'm really

33:53

excited to go through the process

33:55

again. I'm hoping that I can

33:57

do it a lot faster, but

33:59

it feels a little bit like

34:01

I'm having. an affair on these

34:03

characters. I get it. I get

34:05

it. It's funny to hear you

34:07

say it that way, but I

34:09

get it. Yeah, yeah. It's funny

34:11

to think of it that way,

34:13

and I think that eventually that

34:15

will shift, but it does feel

34:17

a little like I'm cheating on

34:19

them. So what did you learn

34:21

writing the first novel, though, that

34:23

you're going to take into the

34:25

second project? I'm going to call

34:27

it a project because I don't

34:29

know exactly what it is. Like

34:31

you've done the thing, right? So

34:33

what do you take away from

34:35

it craftless? I mean, I think

34:37

I have a much better sense

34:39

of how to think about structure

34:41

from the beginning. I think with

34:44

this book, I was just wading

34:46

my way through the swamp trying

34:48

to figure it out. I feel

34:50

like I can go into it

34:52

with a little bit more of

34:54

a plan for this one. I

34:56

also think that part of what

34:58

took me so long is I

35:00

held this book so close to

35:02

my chest for so long, I

35:04

wouldn't show any pages to anyone.

35:06

It was just like, I was

35:08

like, I can do it, and

35:10

I can do it, I can

35:12

do it. And I have a

35:14

very high standard for when I'm

35:16

going to show people work for

35:18

feedback, but I can loosen that

35:20

a little bit and I can

35:22

show people pages sooner and get

35:24

really useful help from them. And

35:26

you would think I would know

35:28

that from having an MFA, but

35:30

I needed to learn it in

35:32

this process. through this one. There's

35:34

the academic world and then there's

35:36

the world world and you know

35:38

I had a really I liked

35:40

school I had a really good

35:42

time and then I was done.

35:44

It's like hello. Yes. Yes. Yes.

35:46

And if anything this show has

35:48

taught me that I probably should

35:50

have done more independent study I

35:52

go down these rabbit holes and

35:54

I'm like hi. I figured out.

35:56

Yeah, yeah, you do. And every

35:58

novel is different. So I'm prepared

36:00

for the fact that I already

36:02

feel again. like I don't know

36:04

what I'm doing, so you know,

36:06

we'll see, but it's there, it's

36:08

there. Isn't that kind of good

36:10

though to not know what, I

36:12

mean, to have expectations where you're

36:14

like, yeah, I've done it, but

36:16

it doesn't mean I know all

36:18

of the things, like you don't

36:20

know what you don't know. I

36:22

think it is good. It's humility

36:24

again, which I think is important

36:26

in creative pursuit. And it's openness

36:28

and it's flexibility and it's being

36:30

able to like, yes, I can

36:32

go where the wind takes me

36:34

and not rigidly held to a

36:36

certain expectation or a certain plan.

36:38

And I think that's super super

36:40

important when it comes to creative

36:42

work and really seriously trying to

36:44

make art. Oh, that's such a

36:46

good place to end. I really,

36:48

that, yeah, let's just go make

36:50

a lot of art and write

36:53

a lot of poems and songs

36:55

and all of that good stuff.

36:57

Den Michelle Norris, it is so

36:59

good to see you, When the

37:01

Harvest Comes, is out now. Thank

37:03

you. Thank you for listening. Portover

37:05

is a Barnes & Noble production.

37:07

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37:09

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