0:02

This is Pored Over, a show

0:04

about stories presented by the

0:07

booksellers of Barnes & Noble.

0:09

I'm Jenna Sieri, a bookseller

0:12

and associate producer of Pored

0:14

Over, and today I am

0:16

very excited to be talking

0:18

with Dennis E. Staples. He's

0:20

the author of This Town Sleeps

0:22

and Passing Through a Prairie Country.

0:24

This has been such a joy

0:26

to read. I was scared. I was

0:29

intrigued. I was really along for

0:31

the ride on this one, so thank

0:33

you so much for joining us today.

0:36

You're welcome. Hello everyone.

0:38

So there are a lot of things that

0:40

happen in this book. You sort of

0:42

like hit the ground running with us

0:45

and you're like, here we go on

0:47

a journey and adventure. So I was

0:49

hoping you could sort of set the

0:52

book up for us a little bit

0:54

so that we can get into the

0:56

good stuff. Okay, so as the book

0:58

opens, we have... a prologue. It

1:01

was actually previewed in People

1:03

magazine a couple months ago,

1:05

just a prologue, called Kino

1:07

Road, and we get a elderly

1:10

man in a wheelchair named All

1:12

Frog Legs, who is just

1:14

having a regular day at

1:16

the casino, and he gets

1:18

accosted by these three unknown

1:20

assailants, young native men, and

1:22

his last moments as they

1:24

rob him, and take his life.

1:26

He sees all of these ghosts. heading

1:29

toward the casino and the sight of

1:31

the ghost themselves the state of them

1:33

disturbs him because he can see echoes

1:35

of some of his own own demons

1:37

in his past and he sees that

1:40

these ghosts are now it seems like

1:42

they have their sights set on the

1:44

casino or they're definitely just bad news

1:46

they're headed there as far as that

1:48

I hit the ground running feeling I

1:50

think outside of the text where that

1:53

it comes from is when the first

1:55

book was released it was the

1:57

same month as the official lockdown

1:59

of the country. March 2020, I

2:01

got to do some good book

2:03

events, but you know, no one

2:05

knew what was going to happen.

2:07

Everything was crazy. You know, any

2:09

ambulance siren going down the road

2:11

was just like, oh no, what

2:13

are we going to do? So

2:15

everything was crazy and jumbo. But

2:17

my book rollout got a little

2:19

bit delayed because of that. So

2:21

I had much more motivation to

2:24

say, okay, I want my next

2:26

book and I need to... I

2:28

need to really make it make

2:30

a splash. I want it to

2:32

be something that will resonate with

2:34

people, something that might disturb them

2:36

a bit, bring them to some

2:38

dark places, and also just some

2:40

good fun. And I definitely found

2:42

that in this story. At first,

2:44

I was just so drawn in

2:46

by the characters. They really do

2:48

something special in this book. I

2:50

was so connected through the eyes

2:52

of these characters, especially Marian. main

2:54

voice that we follow through this

2:56

story. I really wonder if you

2:59

could talk about sort of creating

3:01

that voice because it moves the

3:03

plot very well through this journey.

3:05

I'd say Marian's voice in the

3:07

second one was a lot, there's

3:09

a lot more work put into

3:11

it, all kind of making him

3:13

more of an active hero in

3:15

a sense. When I was writing

3:17

the first book, it was a

3:19

lot more... kind of literary and

3:21

character focus. So Marian didn't really

3:23

get a chance to do a

3:25

lot of the adventurous kind of

3:27

stuff, but because it was a

3:29

sequel and because I'm writing after

3:31

that one, there's at least a

3:34

bit of change or so that

3:36

you find some growth and I

3:38

tried to give Marian this like

3:40

amateur sense of a step into

3:42

the paranormalism, I guess, because the

3:44

first book he, even though he...

3:46

lean skeptical. He followed the dog

3:48

spirit around the rest for a

3:50

little while and had an interaction

3:52

with the ghost, the spirit of

3:54

the fallen Caden Kellyer. So I,

3:56

from the first book, I think

3:58

he had to have been somewhat

4:00

more wise, but at the same

4:02

time, it still had to be

4:04

him. So I just had this

4:06

image of him driving down. He's

4:09

going to be gone for hours

4:11

and then he has to stop

4:13

at the casino quick because he

4:15

slams energy drinks and is smoking

4:17

wheat. So he's a bit of

4:19

a back and forth of making

4:21

Marian like matured from the first

4:23

book, but not mature in other

4:25

ways. I feel like there were

4:27

so many moments where he did

4:29

not know what was going on

4:31

and I didn't know what was

4:33

going on, but we figured it

4:35

out sort of together as we

4:37

went through and that was like,

4:39

I feel like that works so

4:41

well in sort of a paranormal

4:44

story or a horror story. It's

4:46

like, yeah, we're all figuring this

4:48

out together. Nice, I'm glad you

4:50

had that feeling, because I really

4:52

wanted Marian to question himself, but

4:54

ultimately... still be able to kind

4:56

of look around and assess that

4:58

some stuff is going on. And

5:00

even if he doesn't know it

5:02

quite well yet, he has at

5:04

least those instincts to like look

5:06

around and say, you know, I'm

5:08

in danger, I need to figure

5:10

this out. And he has some

5:12

help, of course, from people that

5:14

he meets along the way, namely

5:16

Alana. And I really love this

5:19

character. I love just being inside

5:21

of her head and seeing... the

5:23

care she has for her family,

5:25

the sort of response, this responsibility

5:27

that she feels to the people

5:29

in her life. I think she

5:31

is just so fun to get

5:33

to get to know through this

5:35

story. Though we spend a lot

5:37

of times with Marian, I feel

5:39

like in a lot of ways

5:41

Alana is the heart of this

5:43

book. I'm glad you had that

5:45

feeling because as soon as I

5:47

decided that this was going to

5:49

be a bit of a, like

5:51

a cousin, a bit more wiser

5:54

suitayer character, from there, a lot

5:56

of fun stuff just kind of

5:58

fun stuff just kind of just

6:00

kept flowing with Alana. I guess

6:02

you could say I got to

6:04

get the feel of writing someone

6:06

who was very confident, very responsible,

6:08

headstrong, and in a sense you

6:10

could say that she's pulled from

6:12

a lot of native women I've

6:14

met in my life who they

6:16

just get stuff done and they

6:18

have a good sense of responsibility,

6:20

a good sense of family. I've

6:22

always felt I was a bit

6:24

daydreaming, a bit distractible, not quite.

6:26

Not quite someone who could run

6:29

a household service week, but Alana,

6:31

I really wanted to give her

6:33

that feeling that, like, when you're

6:35

with her, she knows what she's

6:37

doing, she knows what she's about,

6:39

and she will make her decisions

6:41

on a moment's notice. I think

6:43

that's partly why I made her

6:45

the casino host's assistant. I wanted

6:47

to give her, like, a role

6:49

that you could look at and

6:51

say, okay, this is someone who

6:53

has... some sort of pull or

6:55

you know know how of the

6:57

casino they're comfortable with it and

6:59

they have to be able to

7:01

look around at the customers and

7:04

situations make those judgments and just

7:06

be seen as confident and you

7:08

know happy positive face to the

7:10

casino. I agree with what you

7:12

say about her getting things done

7:14

because I feel like she really

7:16

And any time she steps into

7:18

a situation, usually with men, she's

7:20

like, no, no, you're going to

7:22

do this and you're going to

7:24

do this and this is, it's

7:26

going to be a good outcome.

7:28

You just have to listen to

7:30

me. And I think that that

7:32

is fun to read. Thank you.

7:34

I definitely had a lot of

7:36

fun writing her ratway in terms

7:39

of the character that in conception.

7:41

That's her partner, her baby daddy.

7:43

I just. straight up had fun

7:45

making her just be his director

7:47

not really um not really giving

7:49

him like the benefit of the

7:51

narrative like it's it's it would

7:53

always go to her defer to

7:55

her she is she is large

7:57

and in charge and I think

7:59

everyone around that kind of feels

8:01

that, for better or worse, maybe.

8:03

And she has this added layer

8:05

of her sort of paranormal connection

8:07

as well, and sort of this

8:09

otherworldly site that she has. I

8:11

wonder if you could talk a

8:14

little bit about that as well.

8:16

One way I've been thinking about

8:18

it is that my canon, my

8:20

world, whatever you want to call

8:22

it, I have a friend who

8:24

likes to call it the lumberverse.

8:26

I like that. One way the

8:28

reader could think about it is

8:30

that it takes place in a

8:32

world where the OJ Boy were

8:34

blessed with all seven gifts from

8:36

this well-known tale called the Seven

8:38

Fires prophecy. In short, we were

8:40

east of the Great Lakes, visited

8:42

by these seven prophets, and they

8:44

told us to migrate west, and

8:47

that's how we ended up in

8:49

as kind of all around the

8:51

Lake Superior area. I don't remember

8:53

which book it is. I've been...

8:55

For the past few years, I've

8:57

searched for it. I have a

8:59

feeling it's one called the Mishoma's

9:01

book. At least one of these

9:03

books names that the seventh prophet

9:05

is, he's offended somehow. I think

9:07

they pull his mask off to

9:09

see his face. There's a kind

9:11

of lot and his wife's pillar

9:13

of salt thing that happens, that

9:15

the people who pull off his

9:17

masks are killed and then they're,

9:19

you're not blessed with the seventh

9:22

gift. And it's rumor that the

9:24

seventh gift would have been a

9:26

clairvoyance or a future site. This

9:28

is the power that Alana has.

9:30

I really think that, first of

9:32

all, it connects so well with

9:34

her personality because it would make

9:36

total sense that a woman who

9:38

is so in charge would also

9:40

be able to be clairvoyant. But

9:42

I think it really connects with

9:44

this idea that in your world,

9:46

the the paranormal is running right

9:48

alongside the regular world. Like they're

9:50

intertwined, they're not separate things, they

9:52

bump up against each other all

9:54

the time. Honestly that it's it

9:57

that's a little bit how I

9:59

grew up around the area. Um,

10:01

you know, just talk of Sasquatches

10:03

Bigfoot, to a lesser extent, aliens,

10:05

but you know, all of that

10:07

stuff was just around the, there

10:09

were skeptics of course, but you

10:11

know, there were a lot more

10:13

people who felt they were in

10:15

tune with all that, like they

10:17

had a friend who saw a

10:19

ghost, they see ghosts, they see

10:21

aura, all of that. It was

10:23

just, you know, kind of commonplace.

10:25

I think when I was, in

10:27

7th or 8th grade, me and

10:29

some friends, we had a... just

10:32

like a camping night and we

10:34

were going to go explore this

10:36

old abandoned factory and we did

10:38

and it was boring and we

10:40

could look out in the background

10:42

or the skyline and there's a

10:44

big orange glow in the distance

10:46

I mean oh the pala was

10:48

going on tonight all the spirits

10:50

are over there and so like

10:52

even from you know 10 miles

10:54

away we could hear those power

10:56

drums we could hear the glow

10:58

of everything it being commonplace that's

11:00

Probably realistic to me as far

11:02

as how people are, I guess.

11:04

Yes, I think that especially in

11:07

those sort of less populated areas,

11:09

the woods area, I mean, even

11:11

in northern Minnesota, in Bemiji, that's

11:13

where Paul Bunyan is supposed to

11:15

be from. You know, there's always

11:17

those larger than life tales and

11:19

those big things, and you combine

11:21

it then with myth, with native

11:23

culture, it really combines into sort

11:25

of like, of course this is

11:27

how it is, this is just

11:29

what we know. I would love

11:31

to talk a little bit about

11:33

casino culture because I think that

11:35

that is very prevalent in this

11:37

book. And I think casino culture

11:39

in this story is different than

11:42

maybe what a lot of people

11:44

would sort of imagine like a

11:46

Las Vegas casino or something like

11:48

that. Like this is a very

11:50

separate idea to me at least.

11:52

It has its own rules, casinos

11:54

have their own atmosphere, their own

11:56

sort of citizens. So I wonder

11:58

if you could talk a little

12:00

bit about... creating that setting for

12:02

this story. I guess two things

12:04

to note is I've never been

12:06

to Las Vegas. That idea. kind

12:08

of intimates me. I don't know

12:10

if I could navigate through that

12:12

without, you know, two other people

12:14

who lived in Las Vegas forever

12:17

just basically holding my hands all

12:19

the whole time. As far as

12:21

other casinos, I mean, I've been

12:23

around them my whole life. I've

12:25

made the joke before that I

12:27

was raised in a smoky casino

12:29

parking lot. I've seen natives kind

12:31

of make memes similar, just the

12:33

idea of the kids having to

12:35

wait in the car while the...

12:37

adults went inside and played their

12:39

free points or their paycheck, whatever.

12:41

The casino was always there from

12:43

birth, like I guess I don't

12:45

know a native world that isn't

12:47

kind of revolving around this as

12:49

our economic development. And I was

12:52

in seventh grade, I believe, our

12:54

local tribe. They either donated money

12:56

for our transportation or they just

12:58

fielded the whole thing. our class

13:00

was able to go down to

13:02

the cities and see the diary

13:04

of Anne Frank on stage I

13:06

think maybe at Chanhassen might be

13:08

the name and that was the

13:10

first major like outside of movies

13:12

I was the first kind of

13:14

like cultural trip that we took

13:16

and it was from the gaming

13:18

it was all possible because of

13:20

the gaming industry I've been to

13:22

I don't know maybe eight nine

13:24

casinos around Minnesota, North Dakota, and

13:27

South Dakota. And they all do

13:29

have a different feel to them,

13:31

but it does feel like they

13:33

all are, they are aiming for

13:35

a certain atmosphere, one where you

13:37

go in and you get lost.

13:39

You get confused about where the

13:41

exits are, where the bathrooms are,

13:43

the divergations, everything's dim, but also

13:45

bright because the screens are just

13:47

constantly throwing out this really harsh

13:49

light. But the ceilings, they'll usually

13:51

always have a dim lamp or

13:53

so. To me, that was very

13:55

familiar, especially because I'd worked in

13:57

one for the first five years

13:59

of my adult life and been

14:02

to others. So there's a certain

14:04

amount of it that is just

14:06

commonplace every day for me. But

14:08

because of how they're laid out

14:10

like that with all the sense

14:12

of losing time, the dimness, the

14:14

smoke, isolating feeling, all of that,

14:16

I thought it would be the

14:18

perfect place to set this horror

14:20

novel and really dig into just

14:22

a lot of these little details

14:24

that maybe people might not. note

14:26

about just how casinos are run,

14:28

how the patrons are, how the

14:30

employees are, all that. I like

14:32

that you bring up that that

14:34

feeling lost sense. There are several

14:37

moments in the book where characters

14:39

are unsure what is real. They

14:41

are not sure what they're feeling

14:43

is accurate. They're, you know, kind

14:45

of lost in that sensation. And

14:47

it is sort of that same

14:49

thing when you step into that

14:51

casino floor and there's lights and

14:53

sounds and It's one of the

14:55

last places you can smoke inside

14:57

and there's you know all this

14:59

this stimuli going on it is

15:01

really disorienting and then you have

15:03

on top of it that it

15:05

is a strange thing you know

15:07

it's like you're there to spend

15:09

money to lose money to win

15:12

money there's a lot of stakes

15:14

at play. Yeah one thing I

15:16

like to just have a fun

15:18

little creepy speculation out I mean

15:20

if you if you can picture

15:22

I don't know, a thousand years

15:24

in the future, archaeologists, they're digging

15:26

up, hey, this is the lost

15:28

city of, or this is the

15:30

lost land of so and so,

15:32

they dig up a casino. Like,

15:34

what did they do with all

15:36

these empty boxes? They just left

15:38

all these big tall empty boxes

15:40

with glass inside of them. And

15:42

if they had no context on

15:45

what exactly, you know, the real

15:47

screen does and all of that,

15:49

and they just see just the

15:51

hardware equipment of it, I mean,

15:53

if you can picture a casino.

15:55

that has everything, all the slot

15:57

machines in it, but they're all

15:59

off and maybe all of the

16:01

screens are gone. It's an entirely

16:03

different feel. So the casino, it

16:05

really relies on having technology, bright

16:07

colors, glamour, all of that just

16:09

constantly in your face. And even

16:11

when they dug that casino up,

16:13

there'd be one really dedicated patron

16:15

still in their chair and one

16:17

of the slot machines in the

16:20

corner, I think. Yes, absolutely. Still

16:22

hoping that this is the big

16:24

one, the next one. It's always

16:26

the next one. It'll be the

16:28

next time, I know. I do

16:30

think it's also important to remember

16:32

the connection that the gaming industry

16:34

has with native culture and with

16:36

native people because it is something

16:38

that I think has been talked

16:40

about quite a bit, but I

16:42

think as we sort of go

16:44

forward, I feel like I find

16:46

it becoming less and less prevalent

16:48

to be remembered and talked about,

16:50

but it is such a connection

16:52

for these communities. especially in the

16:55

book, you know, these, there are

16:57

so many people that's their job,

16:59

that's, you know, their livelihood, but

17:01

it's also where they spend their

17:03

time, spend their money, and it

17:05

is a community place in a

17:07

twisted way as well. So I

17:09

think it's really interesting to get

17:11

to read that from this perspective.

17:13

Thank you. I remember some of

17:15

the research that I was doing

17:17

was, I think some of... the

17:19

earliest forms of Kino go back

17:21

to a, leave a Chinese dynasty

17:23

who funded their war through lottery,

17:25

so funded their conquest and all

17:27

that. And so when I, when

17:30

I think about all that, I

17:32

think about a temple almost, the

17:34

Amisian temple, so there's a, you

17:36

know, a Bacchus type of temple,

17:38

which is apropos for my, my

17:40

namesake. There's a ritual involved in

17:42

it. There's, you know, people rubbing

17:44

the screens. There's, you know, I

17:46

like this machine. I do this

17:48

every night. I remember a customer

17:50

telling me that this was their

17:52

Friday night ritual when I was

17:54

handing them a beer. They're kind

17:56

of blurring the lines between like...

17:58

This is a temple of sin,

18:00

but it's still a temple. We

18:02

do rituals there. We do things

18:05

to make us feel better. We

18:07

do things that piss us off.

18:09

It's a whole thing. I think

18:11

they're also often drawn to places

18:13

like that are people that maybe

18:15

are outside of the regular flow

18:17

of society for whatever reason. And

18:19

in this instance, you know, we

18:21

see people that maybe don't fit

18:23

in quite perfectly among... mainstream society,

18:25

whether that's because they are marginalized

18:27

in some way or, you know,

18:29

they're struggling with some certain aspects

18:31

of their life, you know, we

18:33

see substance abuse, we see all

18:35

these things that connect to, and

18:37

I think that it really highlights,

18:40

like, oh, this is sort of,

18:42

it goes with that temple of,

18:44

this is a temple of maybe

18:46

people who don't, who can't go

18:48

to the other temple, we come

18:50

here. There's a big mix of

18:52

crowd that you're going to find

18:54

in any casino. You'll usually find

18:56

college-age men at the card games

18:58

and all of the machines. You

19:00

can find younger people there, of

19:02

course, but it's generally an older

19:04

crowd. I've just seen so much

19:06

of it. I've seen so many

19:08

iterations of it. I've seen that

19:10

people pounding on the slot machines

19:12

because they lost all the money

19:15

or the bonus game was not

19:17

what they wanted it to be.

19:19

kind of feel their owed more

19:21

because maybe they're a special customer

19:23

or they've been going there for

19:25

years, that sort of thing. So

19:27

like along with all of the

19:29

fun revelry there is just the

19:31

moments where the customer will kind

19:33

of come at you with like

19:35

this this vitriol and you know

19:37

the anger can logically only be

19:39

at yourself in that instance yet

19:41

you chose to press the button,

19:43

you chose to put the money

19:45

in the slot machine. But we,

19:47

we has the, you know, the

19:50

whole company itself, the, just the

19:52

whole concept of it. Like, we

19:54

make it so easy for you.

19:56

to do is? Well, the house

19:58

always wins, or as you say,

20:00

the haunted house always wins. Oh,

20:02

that scene there, that you're referencing,

20:04

that is my favorite in the

20:06

book, and I think it might

20:08

be possibly the best thing I've

20:10

ever done. I really appreciate those.

20:12

There are so many moments that

20:14

will stick with me from the

20:16

book. That is one of them.

20:18

The other is, and without truly

20:20

spoiling anything, it is when a

20:22

character is in a situation in

20:25

which Teeth are ripped out of

20:27

their mouth as they are being

20:29

pulled underground and I think that

20:31

they're like you are so good

20:33

at writing those like tactile moments

20:35

I have to ask like as

20:37

you're writing through as you're going

20:39

through are you writing this like

20:41

straight through do you sometimes have

20:43

an idea for a scene and

20:45

you're like I have to I

20:47

don't know where this fits in

20:49

yet but I need to write

20:51

it because there are some of

20:53

those moments that are so good.

20:55

I can at least cite for

20:57

that scene without too much spoilers

21:00

I guess. when I was drafting

21:02

early on and I decided on

21:04

this big casino theme I needed

21:06

I obviously needed characters who are

21:08

characters who are alive and characters

21:10

who can who are either already

21:12

ghosts or are soon gonna be

21:14

a ghost and partly to do

21:16

that I went online I searched

21:18

common casino terms poker terms all

21:20

of that and I just started

21:22

drafting ideas of different short stories

21:24

based on those terms and the

21:26

one you're referencing it comes from

21:28

the term buried pair is when

21:30

you have two cards same that

21:32

are faced down on the table

21:35

and so that whole section that

21:37

you get that whole chapter it

21:39

started because I had the word

21:41

buried pair on the screen and

21:43

from there it was just a

21:45

matter of imagining what could that

21:47

mean what could that do in

21:49

the context of this story and

21:51

where can I go with it

21:53

for just maximum. just horror and

21:55

chaos. And it works. And I

21:57

think there are so many of

21:59

those. little moments through where I'm

22:01

like I'm actually creeped out reading

22:03

which doesn't always happen when I

22:05

like I love reading horror and

22:07

I love reading speculative but sometimes

22:10

I can like be like oh

22:12

I can like actually tell that's

22:14

frightening but there were definitely moments

22:16

in this book I'm like oh

22:18

that feels actually frightening thank you

22:20

for that I really was aiming

22:22

for some of those just the

22:24

like that is the horror of

22:26

the Monday and some of it

22:28

the horror of just everyday life

22:30

that you can see and I

22:32

think on sort of the opposite

22:34

end of this casino setting that

22:36

we have. There's also a lot

22:38

of nature in this book. There's

22:40

a lot of outside world. There

22:42

are some there's a lot of

22:45

symbolism. We spend a lot of

22:47

time outside. There are animals. There's

22:49

eagles. There's ice. There's frozen lakes.

22:51

I think having that sort of

22:53

being opposite to this really intense

22:55

labyrinthine casino setting was really interesting

22:57

to go back and forth between.

22:59

Thank you. Yeah, most of the

23:01

casinos, they're within, you know, 100,

23:03

200 yards of some woodland, even

23:05

if it's not, even if it's

23:07

not just a, you know, a

23:09

big forest. It's, you know, there's

23:11

a lake nearby, there's a, there's,

23:13

there's trees everywhere. I think when

23:15

I was maybe 19, we had

23:18

a big summer storm that took

23:20

out like everything in northern Minnesota,

23:22

and the one place at least

23:24

in our immediate area, had power,

23:26

had the means to house some

23:28

people while all of the all

23:30

of the power situations were getting

23:32

taken care of while trees were

23:34

getting pulled off the roads. It

23:36

was the casino. Everyone was hold

23:38

up in the bingo hall. Everyone

23:40

had to either get a hotel

23:42

room there or use the basement

23:44

showers. It's a community hub. in

23:46

a community that is technological community

23:48

hub that is in a nature

23:50

community, you could say. So I'm

23:53

glad to have those two contrasting

23:55

elements. to it and I'm glad

23:57

he liked it. I think also

23:59

it connects so well with this

24:01

idea of storytelling. There's a lot

24:03

of storytelling within this book of

24:05

characters trying to understand their own

24:07

history. I think it happens a

24:09

lot with Marian who he'll half

24:11

remember a story he's been told

24:13

or realize that he doesn't fully

24:15

know something so he has to

24:17

go search it out and there

24:19

are... a bunch of characters that

24:21

I think sort of provide that

24:23

information for him. And I really,

24:25

I think that's so interesting in

24:28

an age we are now where

24:30

information is really accessible, but sometimes

24:32

the information you need, you have

24:34

to go and talk to people

24:36

in your community in order to

24:38

get that. It appears in both

24:40

books, the painted silo, that was

24:42

actually part of that because it

24:44

was always there growing up near

24:46

an elementary school, just a little

24:48

community garden painted up. board it

24:50

up and I never knew what

24:52

it was until I was maybe

24:54

20 or so. I think our,

24:56

my first year writing, writing fiction

24:58

one professor, she told us to

25:00

go in, like, if you're close

25:03

to your hometown, just go find

25:05

something about it that you didn't

25:07

know or is notable and just

25:09

write something up on it. And

25:11

that's actually what I did. I

25:13

went. I went to the local

25:15

grocery store and I just started

25:17

asking people that I knew there

25:19

because no bunch of people there

25:21

at any given prime. It was

25:23

one of my classmates, I'm off

25:25

through school, his father, who was

25:27

also, I think, the athletic director

25:29

growing up. All through school, he

25:31

was the one that told me

25:33

that it was a wild rice

25:35

silo. That's where the tribe used

25:38

to store the wild rice for

25:40

the community. And then in terms

25:42

of story construction, this is actually

25:44

why... Marion is taken, it was

25:46

very deliberately, his phone is taken

25:48

away. I wanted to show, you

25:50

know, our modern thing, we go

25:52

walking or in a place, we're

25:54

in an elevator, we're not, we're

25:56

not quite, we're not quite in

25:58

the most comfortable position. sitting

26:01

there on our phone. And so

26:03

I would marry in some of

26:05

that in the beginning. I gave

26:07

Marian a little bit of leeway

26:09

of like he gets to Google

26:11

a couple things about ghosts, but

26:13

not too long after that I

26:15

like, okay, I got to take

26:18

his phone away and then see

26:20

what he can do. Because I

26:22

mean, we're so dependent on our

26:24

phones these days, even back in,

26:26

I set the book in 2017,

26:28

even back then I. I'm sure

26:30

I, you know, it would have

26:32

been a struggle a week or

26:35

two if suddenly my phone was

26:37

gone. Even if it was just

26:39

like some annoyances, emails, all that,

26:41

like it's, it's, that they're that

26:43

integral to us that as soon

26:45

as they're gone, it feels like

26:47

just a whole world of resources

26:49

and what we're able to do

26:52

is taken away from us. So

26:54

very intentionally, I took away Marian's

26:56

technology. It's hard to navigate this

26:58

when you can't Google what to

27:00

do when this ghost is chasing

27:02

me. Exactly. And I like the

27:04

way that he was able to

27:07

balance being like, okay, some of

27:09

this stuff is too big for

27:11

me to like deal with and

27:13

I need to go. I talked

27:15

to someone who knows a little

27:17

bit more, usually Alana, but also

27:19

there's a group of guys that

27:21

sort of educate, that provide some

27:24

education. I really just like that

27:26

he is able to be like,

27:28

okay, I need to know more,

27:30

even though sometimes it feels like

27:32

he's like, maybe I don't want

27:34

to know anymore, maybe I can't

27:36

deal with all of this. I

27:38

think some of that, it definitely

27:41

comes from just like a personal

27:43

place where if I go into

27:45

a new setting. Maybe less and

27:47

less these days, but if I

27:49

go and do a new setting

27:51

and I don't know what's going

27:53

on, like, I'll probably stumble out

27:55

my words. I'm asking for help,

27:58

I'll probably, I feel like I

28:00

come across is looking extremely nervous

28:02

since it's just about anywhere like

28:04

that. So some of Marian's instincts

28:06

like that come from just my

28:08

own, my own little habit. it's

28:10

when I'm in a new place.

28:12

And so I wanted to transfer

28:15

that to him and just show

28:17

that like, yeah, he's got things

28:19

he needs to learn, he needs

28:21

to learn, he's got experiences that,

28:23

that kind of scratched the surface

28:25

of some of the topics, but

28:27

he's only barely familiar with. And

28:29

then we get to go on

28:32

that adventure with him, which is

28:34

always very fun. And I do

28:36

think that at the end of

28:38

the day, a horror story like

28:40

this or a paranormal story like

28:42

this is such a good way

28:44

to wonder about some of these

28:46

big questions like ghosts and, you

28:49

know, what happens, how all of

28:51

these paranormal aspects that relate to

28:53

our lives, how can we deal

28:55

with that, what does it really

28:57

mean? And I know that you've

28:59

written in a bunch of genres

29:01

before, you've written fantasy and speculative

29:03

fiction and now horror and What

29:06

is it about genre fiction, I'll

29:08

say in quotes, because I think

29:10

that means a lot of things,

29:12

but what is it about writing

29:14

these kinds of stories that draws

29:16

you in? I think it's definitely

29:18

the sense of wonderment, the sense

29:21

of imagination, possibility, and always going

29:23

for something bigger, more grandiose, and

29:25

just, you know, worldlyly. Maybe there

29:27

are some non-genre media that I

29:29

do enjoy, but it's... it's a

29:31

little harder to do because you

29:33

just know it's it's close to

29:35

real life and nothing nothing that

29:38

being out of the ordinary is

29:40

going to come and break up

29:42

the flow. Whereas in this horror

29:44

novel I could put in so

29:46

many different elements that I remember

29:48

from you know school or this

29:50

or that just life in general

29:52

to color some of the some

29:55

of the images that one example

29:57

in near the end of Glenn's

29:59

second chapter, there's a scene involving

30:01

a birch bark tree and peeling

30:03

off the skin of the birch

30:05

bark. I kind of revisit that

30:07

a lot in my writing, especially

30:09

if I'm leaning towards a more

30:12

creepy or horrific scene because when

30:14

I was maybe 14 or 15,

30:16

I was reading a book called

30:18

Ojiboy Heritage by Dacel Johnston and

30:20

it tells the story of how

30:22

the Ojiboy... had discovered tree sap,

30:24

and it's basically a birch bark

30:26

tree starts to feel the bug

30:29

is under its bark, is screaming

30:31

in agony, and the only animal

30:33

that can help it is the

30:35

woodpecker. So the woodpecker goes and

30:37

helps, and then the birch sap

30:39

flows, and then the OJ Boy

30:41

knew that sap was in trees,

30:43

like that was the story. And

30:46

I remember sitting there in high

30:48

school, just like, oh! Oh God,

30:50

why did I read this? I

30:52

didn't need to know that. So

30:54

now I think I just feel

30:56

the need to tell people that

30:58

in stories sometimes. I think that

31:00

they're so funny that those things

31:03

that stick with us years and

31:05

years after we read them, especially

31:07

when it's something that there's so

31:09

many like myths or like origin

31:11

stories are so frightening when you

31:13

take the time to read them.

31:15

It's like, oh, we've actually been

31:17

telling these scary stories since since...

31:20

We could tell stories. One of

31:22

the aspects of Ojiboy storytelling is

31:24

that, according to some, you can

31:26

only tell stories during the winter,

31:28

and it's because if you told

31:30

the stories any other season, like

31:32

the spirits and the animals, they

31:34

would not appreciate being talked about,

31:37

and they don't have the cold

31:39

to stop them, so they can

31:41

come right after you. There's definitely

31:43

something of like, storytelling is manifesting

31:45

these things real, even if they're

31:47

not quite tangible. That really tracks

31:49

in some of the feelings in

31:52

this novel where you're like, oh,

31:54

I know that this seems so

31:56

outlandish in otherworldly, but But yet,

31:58

I could picture this actually happening.

32:00

It's not so far-fetched that, you

32:02

know, there are some, obviously some

32:04

speculative novels or horror novels, and

32:06

it's like completely outside the bounds

32:09

of what we expect to see.

32:11

But if anyone has been in

32:13

the woods of Northern Minnesota, there's

32:15

some stuff in there. Like, you

32:17

feel, you feel some vibes. On

32:19

that note about the Northern Minnesota

32:21

woods, the first time I remember

32:23

kind of feeling that. We were

32:26

just exploring the woods outside my

32:28

house and whoever had the property

32:30

before, they had built this sort

32:32

of, wasn't quite a teepee, it

32:34

wasn't quite, I don't really know

32:36

what it was, but if you

32:38

could just picture like a hollowed

32:40

out log and had some kind

32:43

of a little bit of carvings,

32:45

maybe something like the emerald ash

32:47

borer trails in it, very hollowed

32:49

out, it was filled with other

32:51

branches, and then had a bunch

32:53

of branches on it, just piled

32:55

up, so it just looked like

32:57

this strange little halter like a

33:00

halter like a... you know, Blair

33:02

Witch Project type of thing. And

33:04

then a bit beyond that, there

33:06

was just a set of concrete

33:08

stairs. You know, five concrete stairs

33:10

look like either someone dropped it

33:12

there or that was, that used

33:14

to be the porch of an

33:17

old property. And then way later,

33:19

when I was just leaving my

33:21

undergrad years, I started working at

33:23

a bank and my coworker there

33:25

introduced me to the David Pilates

33:27

missing 411. stories and as you

33:29

know went on that little rabbit

33:31

hole and found out about people

33:34

who have these stories of going

33:36

into the woods and finding creepy

33:38

stairs. Hey I know about some

33:40

stairs in the woods. They weren't

33:42

very high and seemingly I survived

33:44

them so. But we never know.

33:46

For every person who survives the

33:48

creepy stairs in the woods we

33:51

don't know about everyone else. I

33:53

love this idea of storytelling and

33:55

getting to sort of expand on

33:57

what we know. and what we

33:59

think through what we read and

34:01

write. So I was hoping you

34:03

could talk a little bit about

34:05

some of your literary influences and

34:08

some authors in books that you

34:10

love. So directly relating to this

34:12

novel, I'd say the biggest two

34:14

influences I had were Stephen King

34:16

and Thomas Ligati, right before, right

34:18

before the, sometime in 2019, I

34:20

read both The Shining and Doctor

34:23

Sleep, after years of the, I

34:25

like the Shining, pretty years before

34:27

that, but I'd never taken the

34:29

time to read it. And I

34:31

like Dr. Sleep even more. I

34:33

think I read it in like

34:35

75% less the time, the second

34:37

book. Stephen King, you know, he

34:40

has very long books. So he

34:42

also has a bit of a

34:44

grandiose vision. He wants to, he

34:46

wants to give you the, I

34:48

don't remember the name of the

34:50

hotel in the Shaiang, but he

34:52

wants to go view that. He

34:54

wants, he wants you to be

34:57

in there and feel it and

34:59

feel it and lip it. As

35:01

you're in the overlook. Whereas Thomas

35:03

Legati, he is very disturbing, very

35:05

pessimistic, very dreary philosophical. So I

35:07

can only handle so much of

35:09

his short stories all at once,

35:11

but he has this, um, he

35:14

has this weird twist, um, structure

35:16

in a lot of his short

35:18

horror fiction where once you get

35:20

to the end, it's like, oh,

35:22

that's the twist and it doesn't

35:24

make you feel good. It just,

35:26

it just, it kind of, brings

35:28

you to like a, oh, that

35:31

was awful. That was just awful.

35:33

It brings you to a dreary

35:35

place because his reveals, they sink

35:37

in your stomach and you kind

35:39

of realize that he, maybe he

35:41

wants you to be entertained. I

35:43

mean, he is a writer, but

35:45

he definitely wants to give you

35:48

this real oddies sense. And there

35:50

are a lot of parts in

35:52

passing through your prairie country where

35:54

I thought, I want the reader

35:56

to kind of see this image

35:58

and be like. That's it. Maybe

36:00

I won't spend $20 at the

36:02

casino now. Oh, similar to both

36:05

of them, probably my

36:07

biggest literary influence would be

36:09

Clive Barker. And I was

36:12

maybe 13. This could have

36:14

been like a veiled, like, hey,

36:16

I think you'll like this

36:18

particular author. And I got

36:20

a copy of, there's either

36:22

the thief of always or

36:25

the hell-down heart, back jacket,

36:27

Clive Barker. Oh, he's gay.

36:29

I wonder why someone gave the guy

36:31

a book. So I didn't shy away

36:33

from it because of that, you know,

36:36

quite the opposite. I remember reading

36:38

The Thief of Allways all

36:40

night months, listening to just

36:42

an old crackly radio one summer,

36:45

I think I was maybe 13

36:47

or so. So I've read most

36:49

of his stuff. There's a handful

36:51

of his novels that I haven't

36:53

read, and I guess I haven't

36:56

checked out his. His video

36:58

games or some of his comics

37:00

and plays, but I do have

37:02

some of his plays and they're

37:04

pretty great and he he is

37:06

not shy about trying to take

37:08

you to a very disturbing place

37:10

There blood Skin bones body parts

37:12

everything in a Clive Barker novel

37:14

it will take you to a

37:16

place where you're like what why

37:18

did I start reading this even

37:21

some of his plays are like

37:23

that? He has one called Frankenstein

37:25

in love where um as described

37:27

in the action, you, a character

37:29

opens a box and just

37:31

hooks fly out and crack

37:33

him and bring you into

37:35

the box. So, um, private

37:38

workers always wild, but

37:40

he, he, if he goes there, and

37:42

he's not afraid to say, you need

37:44

to come here with me because, well,

37:46

I thought of it, it's on

37:48

the page, get into it. I

37:51

love getting to here. those connections because

37:53

I can see how they they work

37:55

into the book because there are definitely

37:57

those moments like I said where I was like

37:59

and I feel that in those authors as

38:02

well. I have to ask, is there

38:04

more in this universe that's coming?

38:06

I haven't fully decided yet, but

38:08

I think so. There's definitely

38:10

the possibility, and I think

38:13

in maybe another interview or

38:15

so, I've kind of teased the

38:17

idea of mermaids. There is a theme

38:19

in some of your boy stories, but

38:21

they're most often called the

38:23

Nibi-Nabe, should be the water

38:25

humans or the waterman. And there

38:28

are some pretty disturbing stories that I

38:30

could pull from there. I do have,

38:32

and I'm not sure if you're familiar

38:34

with the first book, but in the

38:37

first chapter, in Marian's first chapter,

38:39

the man he leaves behind Shannon,

38:41

I do have a structure in

38:43

mind of sending him basically to

38:45

the kingdom of the mermaids and

38:47

exploring basically what happens to him

38:50

after him and Marian kind of

38:52

part ways and the ensuing winter

38:55

where Marian's, you know. trapped in

38:57

all this casino stuff. Shannon is

38:59

elsewhere and I thought one fun

39:01

connection that I could bring there would

39:03

be Glenn, character Glenn. You could find

39:06

out that at like a boating expo

39:08

or something down in the cities, Shannon

39:10

and Glenn was the first man that

39:12

Shannon had ever dared to actually be

39:15

with and that that could cause a

39:17

little bit of problems if Glenn

39:19

is running around the casino and

39:21

running around the land just kind

39:23

of... being like a big rich nuisance

39:26

and Shannon is not quite out of

39:28

the closet yet so if he runs

39:30

into him like let's say a ice

39:32

fishing festival or something

39:34

that could just send him into

39:37

a tail spit you know maybe

39:39

send him running out onto the

39:41

ice maybe he falls in maybe

39:43

it gets rescued by a mermaid

39:45

just a little preview. I think

39:47

that that sounds really

39:49

interesting and I think that you know There's

39:52

a lot there's a lot in this world still

39:54

obviously I'm sure there you'll have lots of stories

39:56

to tell but I think there's there's a lot

39:58

that you could do in this world. Thank

40:00

you. Well, thank you so much for

40:02

joining us today. I've loved being

40:04

able to talk horror and storytelling

40:06

with you. This town sleeps is

40:09

out passing through a parry country

40:11

is the new book and it

40:13

is out now. So thank you

40:15

so much for joining us. Thank you

40:17

for the invite. I'm glad to be

40:19

here. Hey,

40:23

readers, it's time for another TV, our

40:25

top off. We're going to recommend a

40:28

couple of fantastic books to pick up

40:30

when you stop in for your copy

40:32

of passing through a prairie country.

40:34

I'm Mark at my Barnes &

40:36

Noble in Cincinnati, and I'm joined

40:38

by my book bunny Donald in

40:40

Detroit. Who is going to kick things

40:43

off? So Donald, take it away. Hello.

40:45

Hey Mark, so glad to be

40:47

doing another episode here. So I

40:49

picked Stephen Graham Jones, the only

40:51

good Indians. This was like a

40:53

no-brainer for me when I was

40:55

thinking about what to pair with

40:57

our book. Not only is this

40:59

relevant culturally, because it deals with

41:01

Native American issues, but this is

41:03

probably one of the best horror

41:05

thriller books that I've read in

41:07

a long time. And I'm a Stephen

41:09

King fan. He can do no wrong,

41:11

right? This is even better in many

41:13

cases to some of the best even King

41:16

books when it comes to horror. This

41:18

has everything you would need that's

41:20

cinematic. that is large in scope is

41:22

trying to tell a deeper story, but

41:25

yet it's entertaining, it's fast-paced, and you

41:27

come away feeling really good about what

41:29

you've read. This is a tale of

41:32

revenge, cultural identity, the cost of breaking

41:34

from traditions, and as a

41:36

little bit of a side note, Stephen

41:38

Graham Jones has been called the Jordan

41:41

Peel of horror. For those who know

41:43

what Jordan Peel is, kind of deals

41:45

in more elevated horror, and that's exactly

41:47

what I'd say you get here. It

41:50

seamlessly blends classic horror and dramatic narrative.

41:52

There's such great dialogue and narrative drive

41:54

in this book, with a sharp focus

41:57

on a social commentary. So there's very

41:59

much a matter. here but it's not

42:01

beating you down it feels very

42:03

natural and it's very interesting to

42:05

learn about these four American Indian

42:08

men after a disturbing event from

42:10

their youth so that's a that's

42:12

a common horror trope you know

42:14

a couple a couple young guys

42:17

in their youth and a desperate

42:19

struggle for them to understand their

42:21

lives after this issue and they're

42:23

being tracked by an evil entity

42:26

that so why not? Right? Like

42:28

that's exactly what you want from

42:30

a horror novel. Stephen Graham Jones

42:32

has many more books out there

42:35

than you even realize. But this

42:37

is one of our past monthly

42:39

picks and it definitely deserves to

42:41

be looked at and picked up

42:44

by anybody who has read the

42:46

book we are talking about and

42:48

you're going to want to pick

42:50

this book up and every other

42:53

book that he's written. But the

42:55

book I was talking about today

42:57

is the only good Indians by

42:59

Stephen Graham Jones. Mark, what do

43:02

you have for us this time?

43:04

I, first of all, I love

43:06

that book so much. I know

43:08

I've talked about it on a

43:11

previous episode of Portover. There are

43:13

scenes in that book that I

43:15

can never unsee, and it's written

43:17

and paced so perfectly. And I

43:20

did just finish passing through a

43:22

prairie country and really just is

43:24

hitting this really excellent trend of

43:26

indigenous themes mixed in with horror.

43:29

There's something about it that's just

43:31

hitting so perfectly. And it reminded

43:33

me of a book I had

43:35

read a while back called White

43:38

Horse by Erica T. Worth that

43:40

is also doing something very similar.

43:42

This is a dark wild ride

43:44

full of past trauma and present

43:47

nightmares. It follows Kari who is

43:49

a woman living back in her

43:51

hometown and really kind of has...

43:53

Successfully-ish tamped down her pretty checkered

43:56

dark past. She is spending most

43:58

of her time helping her convalescing

44:00

father and then spending nights. at

44:02

the local dive bar, the white

44:05

horse. When a cousin brings her

44:07

a old bracelet belonging to Kari's

44:09

mother, things start to get pretty

44:11

darn spooky. Kari starts to experience

44:14

these terrifying visions that get increasingly

44:16

more potent and horrifying. And this

44:18

is also linked to her... the

44:20

darkness and trauma that she's gone

44:23

through as a child, and more

44:25

importantly, what actually happened to her

44:27

mother. I can't say too much

44:29

more than that, because just know

44:32

that things unravel pretty rapidly in

44:34

the best way. This is a

44:36

novel full of indigenous lore, family

44:38

secrets, and very real horrors. It's

44:40

got this texture and this lovely

44:43

sense of darkness that will stick

44:45

with you long after you finish

44:47

the book. So please check out

44:49

Weiss of horse. by Erica Teworth.

44:52

And of course, the only good

44:54

at dance by Stephen Graham Jones,

44:56

I will never stop recommending that

44:58

book. But that is all we

45:01

have for today. Thank you so

45:03

much for tuning in to Portover.

45:05

Please make sure to give us

45:07

a rating and subscribe so you

45:10

don't miss any episodes. And you

45:12

can follow us on our socials

45:14

at Barnes and Noble. I'm Mark,

45:16

you can follow my home store

45:19

at BN Westchester and Donald, where

45:21

can we find you? You can

45:23

follow my home store at BN

45:25

Sairlane Laneer. All right, everybody, thanks

45:28

for tuning in. Happy reading. Bye.

45:30

Thank you for listening. Portover is

45:32

a Barnes & Noble production. To

45:34

help other readers find us, please

45:37

rate and review the show wherever

45:39

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