0:02

This is poured over a show

0:04

about stories presented by the booksellers

0:07

of Barnes and Noble. Once the

0:09

Queen's head is severed, he walks

0:11

away. It's a fabulous opening line,

0:13

that first line of the mirror

0:15

in the light, the final volume

0:17

in Hillary Men, tells stunning Wolf

0:19

Hall trilogy. Anne Boleyn is dead

0:21

and Thomas Cromwell, that brilliant,

0:23

self-made man, Lord Privy Seal,

0:25

fixer and enforcer, the man

0:28

who drove the English Reformation,

0:30

continues his assent. and his fall,

0:32

when it comes, is brutal. You may have

0:34

heard at least part of the

0:36

story behind the story. Hillary Mantel

0:39

thought about Thomas Cromwell for 30

0:41

years before she started work on

0:43

Wolf Hall in 2005. What she thought

0:45

would be a single book became two,

0:47

Bring Up the Bodies, arrived in 2012,

0:49

two years earlier than expected, because

0:51

she realized 400 pages in, that

0:53

she needed a third volume to

0:56

tell the story of Thomas Cromwell,

0:58

as it needed to be done. Both Wolf

1:00

Hall and Bring Up the Bodies

1:02

won the booker Hillary Mantel is

1:04

the only woman to have won the

1:06

prize twice, and she joins us today

1:08

in studio by phone. Hillary, thank

1:10

you so much for joining us. Not tall.

1:12

It's a treat for me. Oh, terrific.

1:14

So historical record tells us that

1:16

Thomas Cromwell died in 1540. So

1:19

does this mean you're done with

1:21

Cromwell? No, unfortunately, you know, this

1:23

man has, is neat the habit

1:25

of pushing his head back on, guessing

1:27

up again. and redotting and

1:30

what I'm doing now is I'm

1:32

working on a stage play. So

1:35

for me there's been

1:37

no break. He is

1:39

immediately in progress again and

1:41

then after that we'll

1:43

follow the TV series where

1:45

I'm not writer but I will

1:48

be in the wings there,

1:50

I'll be consulted, I'll be

1:53

looking at the scripts, talking

1:55

with the director and so

1:57

on. So frankly it's going to

1:59

be years before that man's

2:02

out of my life. Oh

2:04

my. Not that I regret

2:06

that because I feel there's

2:09

more to know. I don't

2:11

feel as yet I can

2:14

add this individual up and

2:16

I still feel very much

2:18

in the process of the

2:21

book. I think I made

2:23

a shrewd pick when I

2:25

chose this character. because the

2:28

last thing you want is

2:30

to be able to say,

2:33

I understand everything about you.

2:35

It is a character with

2:37

a lot of ambiguity, and

2:40

I think some of that

2:42

was calculated ambiguity, and some

2:44

of it is probably caused

2:47

by the fact that the

2:49

historical record is erased in

2:51

one way or another. But

2:54

there's plenty of scope for

2:56

creative conjecture with Cromwell. And

2:59

as you roll the story

3:01

over into different media, then

3:03

you can take opportunities that

3:06

you can't take on the

3:08

page. Like what? Well, it's

3:10

a question often of... surprise.

3:13

Very hard for a writer

3:15

to really spring a surprise

3:17

in the page, whereas the

3:20

camera does that so instantly.

3:22

With the theater, there's the

3:25

intimacy, the directness of the

3:27

dreads. And of course, a

3:29

writer of fiction, frustratingly, she

3:32

can only write one line

3:34

at once. But the camera

3:36

or the audience can keep

3:39

their eyes on the characters

3:41

moving in the background. Oh,

3:43

in any defined space, your

3:46

room, your... garden, whatever, whatever,

3:48

they also knows what all

3:51

the other characters are doing.

3:53

But she can't convey that

3:55

all in one line to

3:58

the reader. But sometimes what

4:00

those other characters are doing

4:02

is very telly. And whether

4:05

they are in your main

4:07

characters line of sight or

4:09

not, and in the theater

4:12

and on film, you have

4:14

a chance to... cast your

4:17

eye on all those other

4:19

characters and I think just

4:21

generally for every author if

4:24

you whatever book you're writing

4:26

if you you go along

4:28

you you sometimes think I

4:31

can't quite do this but

4:33

you would work brilliantly if

4:35

it were a film or

4:38

if it were a play

4:40

and one thing I've learned

4:43

as I've moved on in

4:45

my career, is to keep

4:47

your eye on the opportunities

4:50

offered by these other media,

4:52

so that you're always thinking

4:54

plural, not that you're fixing

4:57

your novel, so that it

4:59

can be a play or

5:01

a film. But I think

5:04

knowing the little bit about

5:06

these other media, it just

5:09

powers you up as writer.

5:11

It's as if you've got

5:13

more tools at your disposal.

5:16

I think that's definitely true.

5:18

You also really changed the

5:20

way that we read and

5:23

experience historical fiction, though. I

5:25

mean, Wolf Hall was a

5:27

revelation in 2009. Suddenly we

5:30

were in the present tense.

5:32

And suddenly the language wasn't

5:35

sort of interfering with the

5:37

way we were reading or

5:39

experiencing the story. I mean,

5:42

we all, I think, have

5:44

a great appreciation for the

5:46

way you layer detail after

5:49

detail after detail. And you've

5:51

said this is all based

5:53

on research, that you've got

5:56

entire scenes. that actually the

5:58

level of detail that you

6:01

have comes from ambassadors letters

6:03

or other letters. from members

6:05

at court. Yes, I think

6:08

really the viewpoint you have

6:10

I think in these books

6:12

that you are almost inside

6:15

combo, you're you're looking through

6:17

his eyes and it gives

6:19

a kind of Israel or

6:22

direct presence quality to the

6:24

writing because We're never running

6:27

ahead of his experience. We're

6:29

never lagging behind it either.

6:31

We're always in the present

6:34

moment. That means there are

6:36

things he doesn't know that

6:38

the reader may guess that.

6:41

Well, if he mainly doesn't

6:43

know, like every person who's

6:45

ever lived, he doesn't know

6:48

what's going to happen in

6:50

the next five minutes. The

6:53

reader, though, has a better

6:55

idea. And I think... in

6:57

that gap between what the

7:00

reader knows and what Cromwell

7:02

knows, grows a very particular

7:04

kind of expectation, because the

7:07

reader gets to know Cromwell

7:09

really well and wants to

7:11

know how he will react

7:14

when history begins to overtake

7:16

him. And I think the

7:19

fact that we do know

7:21

the end, it... It's not

7:23

really a disadvantage, it can

7:26

be turned to the advantage

7:28

of the book because you

7:30

build a sense of thread.

7:33

And I have to say

7:35

it's a really elegant ending,

7:37

and that's all I'll say

7:40

because I want people to

7:42

experience it as I got

7:45

to experience it, but the

7:47

way you take the reader

7:49

through that last few chapters,

7:52

it's a perfect ending for

7:54

the character. I mean beyond

7:56

the historical record, beyond the

7:59

fact that we know he

8:01

dies, the way you set

8:03

it up and the Cromwell

8:06

that we see in those

8:08

moments is really spectacular. He

8:11

was a busy man in

8:13

the town of London. He

8:15

was. The king asked him,

8:18

in effect, to do the

8:20

paperwork that would set him

8:22

up to get him out

8:25

of his fourth marriage. And

8:27

so until the very end,

8:30

I think, his time was

8:32

fall. But then you hazy

8:34

dross, you days where... you're

8:37

free to imagine what I

8:39

should have been going on

8:41

with him. And I have

8:44

to say that I started

8:46

imagining those last few days

8:48

right at the beginning of

8:51

the project, so I'm going

8:53

about 15 years now, taught

8:56

very much book in which

8:58

the ending arrived as soon

9:00

as the beginning arrived. Right.

9:03

EU began the books with

9:05

a teenage boy. lying flat

9:07

on the cobbles of a

9:10

yard and a man standing

9:12

over him and the boy

9:14

can see his own blood

9:17

and he thinks I've got

9:19

a few seconds to live

9:22

and that's where we get

9:24

to at the very end

9:26

of the book. except that

9:29

14 years has passed, and

9:31

40 really, that can tumultuous

9:33

years, and the reader has

9:36

been along for a lot

9:38

of that ride with Thomas

9:40

Cromwell. So I had the

9:43

opportunity to rehearse the end,

9:45

if you like, and I've

9:48

made many, many drafts. before

9:50

I actually got to writing

9:52

the final chapter because I

9:55

work in a very collage-like

9:57

fashion. At any point I

9:59

could write something for any

10:02

point in the project or

10:04

at least write an outline

10:06

if I didn't have all

10:09

the facts. But then of

10:11

course there came a point

10:14

about three years back where

10:16

I just had to go

10:18

and sit down at my

10:21

desk and very systematically put

10:23

it all into order and

10:25

write the book from the

10:28

beginning. But my engagement with

10:30

the end of the project

10:32

goes back, I suppose, right

10:35

back to when I began

10:37

writing around 2005. You said

10:40

from sort of minute, that

10:42

first paragraph, you knew that

10:44

you had the story. Did

10:47

you have Cromwell's voice in

10:49

his interior life then too,

10:51

or did you just know

10:54

that you had the start

10:56

of something? This is 1800

10:58

pages of Thomas Cromwell's life.

11:01

I had the whole thing

11:03

from the first century because

11:06

the second piece as I

11:08

describe and what the character

11:10

could see was in intense

11:13

close-up. He could see his

11:15

blood and he could see

11:17

his father's boot and he

11:20

could see the stitching in

11:22

the boot. So having written

11:24

such sentences, I had to

11:27

take a breath and ask

11:29

myself, where am I? And

11:32

the answer was, I'm behind

11:34

Thomas Cromwell's eyes. Right. And

11:36

the next question is, when

11:39

is this? And the answer,

11:41

it is now. So two

11:43

big decisions were taken right

11:46

away on viewpoint. And... On

11:48

the kens, I was going

11:50

to use a command. the

11:53

present tense because it was

11:55

unfolding like film script. So

11:58

I think after that I

12:00

had taken the essential decisions

12:02

because I think with historical

12:05

fiction everything's a matter of

12:07

tone and you have to

12:09

set that tone on the

12:12

first page. With this book

12:14

it seemed to command its

12:16

tone. I was not conscious

12:19

of making choices. I would

12:21

only conscious of that voice

12:24

in my head over our

12:26

Cromwell's father who was saying,

12:28

so now get up. And

12:31

I knew that 40 years

12:33

on when he's dying, he'd

12:35

be hearing that voice. Cromo

12:38

was King Henry's right hand

12:40

for 10 years. So he's

12:42

behind the scenes. Well, he's

12:45

behind the scenes, but he's

12:47

also standing literally next to

12:50

the king. He's the smartest

12:52

guy in the room. He's

12:54

the king's right-hand man. He's

12:57

three steps ahead of anyone

12:59

else at any given time.

13:01

And yet, there are moments

13:04

in this book, there are

13:06

moments in the mirror in

13:08

the light, where Cromwell realizes

13:11

that suddenly he's the one

13:13

fighting the invisible enemy when

13:16

he had been the invisible

13:18

enemy. And it's shocking for

13:20

him. I think he must

13:23

always have known the great

13:25

weakness of his position, that

13:27

one of the character says

13:30

everything depends on the next

13:32

beak of the king's heart.

13:34

Comhouse cow is written into

13:37

the structure or into the

13:39

hierarchy. It's all the power

13:42

given to him by the

13:44

king, so he's not in

13:46

the same position as one

13:49

of the bright lords of

13:51

the realm. who commands his

13:53

own territories and his own

13:56

tenants and can raise private

13:58

army. That's not Commonwealth's position.

14:00

He's a politician, he's a

14:03

courtier, everything depends on Henry's

14:05

favour. So everything comes down

14:08

to his personal relationship with

14:10

the king. Plus the network

14:12

of relations, he can build

14:15

with other people the favours

14:17

he can offer them. The

14:19

encouragement or the bribes he

14:22

can offer them. There's always

14:24

the huge constellation of forces

14:27

ranged against him. And those

14:29

aren't just the old nobility.

14:31

It's also the common people.

14:34

Because to all of mine

14:36

in the 21st century, they

14:38

ought to like Thomas Cromwell

14:41

because that's what he is.

14:43

He's a common man. But

14:45

actually the opposite is true,

14:48

and this is where they're

14:50

so different from us. because

14:53

people think God's design is

14:55

that you should be ruled

14:57

by noblemen. And so they

15:00

don't welcome Thomas Cromwell's rice

15:02

to power. Quite the opposite.

15:04

They think there's something wicked

15:07

and unnatural about it. So

15:09

he has no natural following

15:11

or affinity. He has to

15:14

rely very much on what

15:16

he can build day by

15:19

day. on what he can

15:21

hold together in the teeth

15:23

of our position. I think

15:26

to that extent, he would

15:28

always have envisaged, this is

15:30

going to end badly, and

15:33

yet he engages, like all

15:35

the court is, life at

15:37

court may be dangerous, but

15:40

what's life away from court

15:42

is just a waste of

15:45

pointless boredom. Thus, their attitude.

15:47

If you want to get

15:49

on, you have to be

15:52

at the court, you have

15:54

to engage with this king.

15:56

And so the stakes are

15:59

very high in the 16th

16:01

century. As a minister, if

16:03

you make a mistake, you

16:06

are likely to pay with

16:08

your life. And if your

16:11

enemies get the upper hand,

16:13

they can sweep you out

16:15

of the way in a

16:18

matter of days. You are

16:20

not going to be locked

16:22

away for several years while

16:25

your cases investigated. They're going

16:27

to move very fast and...

16:29

in the end that's what

16:32

happens to Cromwell. It's a

16:34

sign of his his power

16:37

too when the Northern rebellion

16:39

happens and suddenly there are

16:41

rumors that the king has

16:44

died and Cromwell is in

16:46

fact ruling the country and

16:48

then those rumors turn into

16:51

well Cromwell would like to

16:53

marry the lady Mary or

16:55

he would like to marry

16:58

the king's niece and he

17:00

would like to make himself

17:03

a successor to the king.

17:05

Yes, these are very dangerous

17:07

to him obviously. The one

17:10

thing that would most outrage

17:12

Henry is the idea of

17:14

anyone else steaming to take

17:17

over his throne that would

17:19

enrage any king. And it's

17:21

hard to know, if Giscus,

17:24

whether some of these rumours

17:26

that take over England are

17:29

actively planted. Is there rise

17:31

in some spontaneous way or

17:33

if they are implanted by

17:36

Cromwell's enemies? But gossip is

17:38

always a mystery. In this

17:40

case, the lethal gossip of

17:43

course. But these rooms are

17:45

circulated all over Europe and

17:47

the idea that Cromwell was

17:50

plotting to marry the king's

17:52

daughter. We haven't taken any

17:55

circulation for a number of

17:57

years, but it's as if...

17:59

Henry decided never to hear

18:02

this rumor until he did

18:04

decide to hear it when

18:06

he'd already decided to move

18:09

against Cromwell. Or whether it

18:11

was Cromwell's enemies who said

18:13

to Henry, wake up, you

18:16

know what's going on. He's

18:18

plotting to take over your

18:21

throne. and they pushed him

18:23

into action. You know, when

18:25

to Boncomo was erected, he

18:28

must have thought. Let me

18:30

get to the king, because

18:32

I'll make him change his

18:35

mind. Because Henry was volatile.

18:37

Right. But of course, as

18:39

everyone knew that, the last

18:42

thing they were going to,

18:44

and that was a personal

18:47

meeting between Cromwell and Henry.

18:49

It's frightening how personal... The

18:51

face of power is in

18:54

those days. So that when

18:56

all the politics are stripped

18:58

away, what you have in

19:01

the Miranda Light is the

19:03

crucial relationship between the king

19:05

and his minister. Part of

19:08

Cromwell's brilliance and his rise

19:10

to power also comes with

19:13

his relationships with women at

19:15

court. He's very good. at

19:17

maintaining whatever relationship he needs

19:20

to collect information. So there

19:22

are two points in the

19:24

story. He has two interactions.

19:27

There's Cardinal Wolsey's daughter, and

19:29

then there's a moment with

19:31

Best Seymour, the woman who

19:34

becomes his son's wife. Yeah.

19:36

Where he misreads the situation

19:39

so wildly. And these are

19:41

two separate occurrences with two

19:43

separate women, but... Cromwell actually

19:46

misreads the situation and the

19:48

shock that he registers was

19:50

actually shocking for me. Because

19:53

of all of the people

19:55

in the world, given everything

19:57

that I knew about this

20:00

character over all of these

20:02

books, and here are two

20:05

massive moments where he has

20:07

misread what's in front of

20:09

him. How did it feel

20:12

for you to write those

20:14

scenes? I think right at

20:16

the beginning of all, Cromwell

20:19

makes a very conscious decision

20:21

to take on board the

20:23

women's world. He says, women

20:26

imagine what it's like to

20:28

be each other. And one

20:31

can learn from that. And

20:33

it's as if he suddenly

20:35

understands what empathy is. And

20:38

he weaponizes it. And he

20:40

uses it not only in

20:42

his interactions with women but

20:45

with men as well, because

20:47

he says, you know, a

20:50

lot of the time. You

20:52

don't have to force people.

20:54

into doing things. You just

20:57

have to find out what

20:59

they want and it's often

21:01

very easy to give it

21:04

to them and it even

21:06

speeds the process all around.

21:08

So he has a way

21:11

of working people, manipulating people

21:13

if you like and he

21:16

understands that at court there

21:18

was a kind of inner

21:20

court we consist of the

21:23

women of what they talk

21:25

about and information they exchange

21:27

in their exchange. amongst themselves.

21:30

He wants to cut into

21:32

this, and he does. But

21:34

there are, as you say,

21:37

the moments when he's on

21:39

footed. And these, of course,

21:42

are fictional episodes. Wolsey stored

21:44

to Darcy as a real

21:46

person, and he really was

21:49

a young nun in the

21:51

convent at Shasbury, and letters

21:53

about her and about what

21:56

was to happen to her.

21:58

Cross Cromwell's desk. their real

22:00

letters. The visit to Shashbury, I make up,

22:02

but it's possible that it could have occurred. And

22:04

he hasn't seen Dorisius think she was a child. And

22:07

he goes to offer her a home, shelter, and she

22:09

turns on him, and she accuses him of betraying

22:11

her father, Cardinal Wolsey, his beloved father

22:13

father, his beloved father father father, his

22:15

beloved father father father, his beloved father

22:17

father father father. His beloved father father

22:19

father father father father father father father,

22:21

his beloved father father father father father father

22:24

father father father father, his beloved father

22:26

father father father father father father father father

22:28

father father. And he is

22:30

absolutely shocked. He might

22:33

perhaps have been able to

22:35

rebut that accusation

22:37

if it had come from

22:40

another man. But as it

22:42

comes from a young woman

22:44

and one so close to

22:46

the cardinal, he simply

22:49

can't cope with it.

22:51

He's completely knocked off

22:54

course, and it's the one

22:56

time in this three books.

22:58

when he almost breaks

23:00

down and he begins

23:03

to talk quite, quite

23:05

wildly about Wolsey

23:07

and what he did for

23:09

him. And he's just

23:11

talking into the air. He's

23:14

leftoriff here behind.

23:16

He's come out of that

23:19

room and he, yes, he's

23:21

being, you know, nothing,

23:23

nothing could have prepared

23:25

him for this. However,

23:28

with Elizabeth Seymour,

23:30

the misunderstanding there,

23:32

it is his

23:34

fault, in a way, because

23:37

Elizabeth, the widowed

23:39

sister of Queen Jane

23:41

Seymour, and Cromwell

23:44

has set her up to

23:46

marry his son Gregory.

23:48

But Elizabeth thinks

23:50

she's got married

23:53

Thomas. The conversations

23:55

come well as had with Edward

23:57

C. More about it. Of big...

24:00

kind of calicature

24:02

masculine conversations,

24:04

which you can almost

24:06

imagine people being in

24:08

that mode today, but I

24:11

think with two, the men

24:13

talking about a marriage, it was

24:15

all about when and how

24:17

will we make this

24:20

contractual relationship. It was about

24:22

money, basically. It wasn't

24:25

about love. And it wasn't

24:27

about the... feelings of

24:29

the parties concerned as long

24:32

as they would consent.

24:34

So I suppose this is me

24:36

having some fun at the expense

24:39

of the typical cuter

24:41

male. Which Cromwell is?

24:44

You know, he's trying very

24:46

hard to understand the

24:48

world of women, but

24:50

I suppose the moral is

24:52

that ultimately it remains

24:55

a puzzle to him. There are

24:57

dark areas there where he never

25:00

becomes master. The women

25:02

have a way of putting him in

25:04

his place. The dead are real and

25:06

have power over the living. That's

25:08

the line I lifted from the

25:11

New Yorker interview that you did

25:13

in 2012, but it is really

25:15

true for this book. It's true

25:18

for the entire trilogy. Yes, nobody's

25:20

ever dead. Nothing's ever finished.

25:23

All situations seem to

25:25

be cyclical. So something

25:27

buried in your far

25:29

past will come around

25:31

and get you. Like what

25:34

is embedded in Thomas's

25:36

memory from when

25:38

he was a boy of eight and

25:40

he saw an old woman burned

25:43

at the stake. And

25:45

even though he's an expert

25:48

at repression, he's unable

25:50

to keep away from

25:53

this memory which invades

25:55

him. in a really dreadful and

25:57

weakening way in the mirror.

26:00

around the light and

26:02

we're working within

26:04

a world here where

26:06

everyone is a

26:09

religious believer and

26:11

everyone believes

26:13

in the next

26:15

world are very close

26:18

to them and very

26:21

important much

26:23

more important

26:25

than this world so

26:27

even at the time. you

26:29

see, what happens when

26:32

you die? If there is an

26:34

immediate judgment, you go to

26:37

heaven or hell, or if

26:39

there is this awful waking

26:41

room called Kolkatui,

26:43

where you might stay

26:45

for thousands and thousands

26:47

of years, and if it

26:50

is one of the theological

26:52

debates at the heart

26:54

of the Reformation,

26:56

but it strikes me that

26:59

it... Okay, it is

27:01

a philosophical question,

27:03

a theological question,

27:06

but if you've lost

27:08

someone close to you,

27:11

it's the most urgent question

27:13

you know. Where are they now?

27:15

Can they see me? Will I

27:18

ever hear from them again?

27:20

And in this book,

27:23

particularly, it's as if Cromwell

27:25

carries inside him all

27:27

those. those people who

27:29

have died and he

27:31

considers himself bound by

27:33

promises to the dead and

27:36

he's made a promise to

27:38

Catherine of Aragon Henry's first

27:40

wife and he says I

27:42

promised to look after her

27:44

daughter I can't break the

27:46

terms now even though this is really

27:49

risky for me politically

27:51

I might lose my own

27:53

life but I've got to

27:55

somehow protect Mary because I

27:58

can't call Catherine back and say... to

28:00

her, I want a bit of

28:02

negotiation now on this promise. He

28:04

says he has to keep it.

28:06

So the people who we met,

28:08

it will fall and bring up

28:10

the body. A lot of them

28:12

are dead, but they are not

28:14

gone. Can I tell you a

28:16

place of greater safety is one

28:18

of my personal favorites from a

28:20

very long time ago, so I

28:22

was thrilled to be able to

28:24

talk to you? Thank you for

28:26

telling me that. And someday I

28:28

would love to ask you, you

28:30

have this great comment about how

28:32

you couldn't write that novel now

28:34

because everything has changed. And someday

28:36

we will have that conversation. I

28:39

think that's right. It's a young

28:41

person's novel. And I couldn't have

28:43

written Thomas Cromwell back then. Yeah,

28:45

when I started to place the

28:47

greatest safety, I was younger than

28:49

all the characters. And then I've

28:51

obviously, you know, life, life overtook

28:53

me. With Cromwell, I had to

28:55

get to approximately hitting of his

28:57

age and height of his power.

28:59

I think even when you begin

29:01

more fully, it's obviously, you're talking

29:03

about someone who's got a lifetime

29:05

of experience behind him. And I

29:07

had to get that as well.

29:09

And that seems like the perfect

29:11

place to end. Hillary Mantel, the

29:13

new novel, is the mirror in

29:15

the light. It is the third

29:17

volume of the Wolfhall trilogy. Thank

29:19

you so much for joining us.

29:26

Hello readers, it's time for another

29:28

TV or Top Off. We're going

29:30

to recommend a couple of great

29:33

books to pick up to when

29:35

you stop in for your copy

29:37

of The Mirror and the Light.

29:39

I'm Mark at my Barnes &

29:41

Noble in Cincinnati and I'm joined

29:43

by my book Bunny Donald in

29:46

Detroit. Hello Donald, how are you?

29:48

I'm good Mark, how are you?

29:50

I am fantastic, ready to talk

29:52

about books. I'm going to go

29:54

ahead and kick things off actually.

29:56

So in keeping with the saga

29:59

of Henry VIII. riddled with so

30:01

much. I wanted to recommend the

30:03

fire brand by Elizabeth Fremantle. which

30:05

follows one of his later wives.

30:07

So this would be a good

30:09

one to pick up after you've

30:12

finished Mattel's illustrious amazing trilogy. This

30:14

follows Catherine Parr who is at

30:16

this point a two-time widow who

30:18

is really just looking to marry

30:20

for love. She's sick of doing

30:22

this for duty. It has not

30:25

served her very well. So she's

30:27

just ready for some feels. Parr

30:29

is a very interesting character. She

30:31

is outspoken. She's smart. She's very

30:33

magnetic. And her charisma is really

30:35

aimed at a specific courtier, but

30:38

instead gets the attention of King

30:40

Henry VIII, who by now has

30:42

divorced two wives and executed two

30:44

others. So I would imagine Catherine

30:46

Parr is not super excited about

30:48

sharing this affection. but you can't

30:51

really refuse a royal proposal, especially

30:53

to a king like this. So

30:55

she strides down that aisle with

30:57

trepidation's hope, let's say. And really,

30:59

the novel follows the way that

31:01

she really has to stay on

31:04

top of things to deal with

31:06

a king who is kind of

31:08

later on in his life, in

31:10

his mental state, and is paranoid

31:12

at every turn. So she has

31:14

to use this wit to really

31:17

stay alive, but also kind of

31:19

shift things in the kingdom. This

31:21

novel treats 16th century palace politics

31:23

with the same level of care

31:25

that Fremantle uses for her depth

31:28

of character, which I think is

31:30

a really important combination when it

31:32

comes to historical fiction, especially in

31:34

this time period. I think readers

31:36

are going to love. this take

31:38

on such a fraud saga. And

31:41

bonus, there is a movie out

31:43

now with Jude Law and Alicia

31:45

Vicander, but of course, as always,

31:47

the book is better. So check

31:49

out Firebrand by Elizabeth Fremantle. Donald,

31:51

what do you have for us?

31:54

So I went in a slightly

31:56

different direction, Mark. I have picked

31:58

Maggie O'Farrell's The Marriage Portrait. This

32:00

book is a great companion to

32:02

those because it's historical, it's got

32:04

thrills, it's... Espionage, I mean all

32:07

the things that we kind of

32:09

like about the Hillary Mantle's trilogy

32:11

with a female main characters of

32:13

focus and one of the most

32:15

interesting openings in a book ever

32:17

I think. And I wanted to

32:20

share this also doesn't give anything

32:22

away. This is the very, this

32:24

isn't even chapter one. This is

32:26

like kind of like her introductory

32:28

note to the beginning of the

32:30

book before the book starts. It

32:33

just says historical note in 1560.

32:35

15-year-old McCretia de Medici left Florence

32:37

to begin her married life. Less

32:39

than a year later, she would

32:41

be dead. The official cause of

32:43

her death was given as putrid

32:46

fever, but it was rumored that

32:48

she'd been murdered by her husband.

32:50

So that's not even a spoiler.

32:52

That is the historical note on

32:54

the actual person this book is

32:56

based on, much like Hillary Mantle

32:59

series. Except this has everything you

33:01

can want in a fictionalized version

33:03

of a historical story. It's got

33:05

a lush time period, takes place

33:07

in Florence. It deals with nature

33:09

and animals as well, because there's

33:12

a zoo involved. Plus, just that

33:14

constant threat of understanding what happened

33:16

to her in real life and

33:18

what's going to happen to her

33:20

in the story. And then also

33:22

what the actual marriage portrait is

33:25

a metaphor for, which is a

33:27

fascinating revelation as you get towards

33:29

the end of the book. But

33:31

it's surprise after surprise after surprise,

33:33

after surprise, after surprise, in the

33:35

most whimsical, magical way for historical

33:38

fiction to come alive, right? Because

33:40

we all kind of have an

33:42

idea of what a historical will

33:44

look like in our heads as

33:46

we're reading the story. This, there's

33:48

always just this sense of something

33:51

more going on in this world

33:53

that she's created. Lucretia is a

33:55

fascinating character. She's fun to travel

33:57

with throughout this story. You're rooting

33:59

for her, but you're also understanding

34:01

some of the real strengths that

34:04

women had that they weren't allowed

34:06

to use in these time frame.

34:08

So when you get to the

34:10

end and you realize her full

34:12

journey, you're then going to want

34:14

to pick up more books about

34:17

her life as you would anything

34:19

about Henry VIII. So again, looking

34:21

for something really great. By the

34:23

way, this is the author who

34:25

did Hamnet, which is another... phenomenal

34:27

fictional historical retelling. But this time

34:30

I was talking about Marygate or

34:32

Farrell's, the marriage portrait. Yes, yes,

34:34

yes. Nice pick. I like the

34:36

little off the beaten path, but

34:38

not quite. But that is all

34:40

the time we have for today.

34:43

Thank you so much for tuning

34:45

into Portover. Please make sure to

34:47

give us a rating and subscribe

34:49

so you don't miss any episodes.

34:51

We've got so many wonderful interviews

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going on. And you can also

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follow us on our socials at

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35:00

can follow my home store at

35:02

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35:04

we find you? You can follow

35:06

me at B.N. Fairlane Green. All

35:09

right, everybody, thanks for tuning in.

35:11

Happy reading. Thank you for listening.

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