0:00

Here we are again, right? It's

0:02

a second presidency, second term, and

0:04

they are dominating our discussions. Yeah,

0:06

and part of that is their

0:08

social media. Since Trump took office

0:10

in January, the official White House

0:12

social media accounts have been posting

0:14

a bit differently. On Valentine's Day,

0:16

the White House's Instagram account posted

0:18

a card that read, quote, roses

0:20

are red, violets are blue. Come

0:23

here illegally and we'll deport you.

0:25

The meme was accompanied by photos

0:27

of Donald Trump and border czar

0:29

Tom Holman. A few days later,

0:31

the White House posted an ASMR-style

0:33

deportation video. The video was titled

0:35

ASMR deportation flight, and it depicted

0:38

immigrants in shackles boarding a plate

0:40

with amplified sounds of chains and footsteps.

0:42

The very next day, they posted an

0:44

AI-generated image of President Trump wearing a

0:46

giant gold crown with a caption, congestion

0:49

pricing is dead. Manhattan and all of

0:51

New York. is saved, long live the

0:53

king. And finally, just a couple weeks

0:55

ago, the White House posted another bizarre

0:57

video using the semi-sonic song Closing Time

1:00

while a person was being deported. The

1:02

band responded by saying that no one

1:04

from the White House had sought approval

1:06

to use that song, and that's not

1:08

at all what the song is about.

1:11

Drew Harwell, my former colleague at

1:13

the Washington Post, has been covering

1:15

the White House's digital strategy. Today

1:17

he joins me to unpack the

1:20

White House's bizarre new social media

1:22

presence. has transformed its traditional press

1:24

shop into a rapid response influencer

1:26

operation and how the Democratic Party

1:28

is responding in the online arena.

1:31

Hi Drew, welcome to Power User. Hey

1:33

Taylor, how you doing? So you wrote

1:35

this great story about Trump's social media

1:37

strategy. I feel like during Trump's first

1:40

presidency, I certainly didn't know that much.

1:42

I feel like there was just Dan

1:44

Scavino in there tweeting random things. It

1:46

seemed very haphazard. This time it seems

1:49

like a much more strategic effort. the

1:51

social team within the White House is

1:53

structured currently. Yeah, it was really

1:56

haphazard and it was a much

1:58

smaller team, much less organized. Now

2:00

there's basically a core squad of

2:02

like a dozen. you know, young

2:04

creative people who have a bunch

2:06

of ideas, they share ideas really

2:08

quickly, they can produce them and,

2:10

you know, put the content out

2:12

really quickly, people who are like

2:14

clippers, you know, who are watching

2:16

live video, pulling segments out, posting

2:19

them online as quickly as possible

2:21

to start building up that viral

2:23

attention. There's people who are kind

2:25

of writing the tweets and Instagram

2:27

posts that are going out there.

2:29

There's image designers who are, you

2:31

know, putting... photos out that align

2:33

with the political message. These are

2:35

normal kinds of operations for companies

2:38

in America or campaigns. It's not

2:40

something we've ever had from the

2:42

White House institutional standpoint. There was

2:44

this moment at Baltimore-Vid Khan a

2:46

few years ago when Christian Tom, who

2:48

was the previous digital director, got on

2:50

stage in front of all these creators

2:53

and said, actually, President Biden is the

2:55

biggest White House content creator. And that

2:57

they had this, you know, innovative social

2:59

media strategy, I guess. the Biden White

3:01

House team to put their messaging out

3:03

online. How does the Trump social media

3:06

strategy and team differ from, you know,

3:08

what we had before and what we

3:10

saw under Biden? That moment was funny

3:12

because President Biden did not fit that

3:14

role well at all, right? They tried

3:16

to force it. And, you know, there

3:19

was content made with President Biden. He

3:21

seemed game to try it. They tried

3:23

dark Biden stuff. They had videos with

3:25

Joe Biden. With President Trump, they've really

3:27

leaned into that mold better because we

3:30

know. you know, from his first presidency,

3:32

he tweeted all the time, he posted

3:34

jokes, he posted attacks, he had the

3:36

poster spirit as one would say, and

3:38

he just understood it more innately, even

3:41

though both of these guys are similar

3:43

in age, Trump was just seemingly more

3:45

comfortable with it. And actually last year,

3:47

during the campaign, when his team was

3:49

starting to think about joining Tik, they

3:52

had seen that there was already a

3:54

base of support for Trump on Tik,

3:56

but he hadn't had an account, had

3:58

been awkward because of of course, during

4:00

his first presidency, he tried to ban

4:03

TikTok, but he'd come around and they

4:05

created an account. And at the time,

4:07

they were saying, Trump is not just

4:10

a politician, he's a celebrity entertainer, he

4:12

has this past MTV, he has this,

4:14

you know, audience that just loves what

4:17

he's saying, regardless of the politics. And

4:19

so they basically try to double down

4:21

on that in a social media format.

4:24

So they use his. punch lines, his

4:26

attack lines, you know, the fierce things

4:28

he says about his political enemies, his

4:30

media enemies, and also his, you know,

4:33

side of humor and the weird stuff

4:35

he says all the time. Trump is

4:37

not editing the videos that go out

4:39

on TikTok, but he is the star

4:41

in every single video and he seems

4:43

to understand that. He seems to really

4:45

relish the opportunity to be himself and

4:48

we saw this during the campaign too

4:50

where he was doing these long multi-hour

4:52

podcast interviews. He was just really accepting

4:54

that moment and... meaning into it, and

4:56

now he's become this even beyond the

4:58

presidency and influencer all his own. I

5:00

mean, he's always been our first real influencer

5:02

president, for sure, I would argue. So it

5:05

sounds like Trump is starring in a lot

5:07

more content, it's a lot more like centered

5:09

personally on him than maybe under the Biden

5:11

administration, where it was more about his policies

5:13

and the people around him. I also feel

5:16

like there's a lot more. acknowledgement of digital

5:18

trends. I think there was that like ASMR

5:20

deportation video or something, but they seem really

5:22

willing to like engage in these kind of

5:24

niche formats. Can you talk about that? After

5:27

the inauguration, when the Trump team started,

5:29

and this is a digital team that's

5:31

based out of the White House, you

5:33

started to see these posts and videos

5:35

come out that were, again, nothing like

5:38

we'd ever seen from the White House,

5:40

especially around immigration, where they posted on

5:42

Valentine's Day a Valentine with, you know,

5:44

Trump's face and the face of Borders

5:46

are Tom Homan, saying, you know, roses

5:49

are red, violets are blue, come into

5:51

this country illegally, and we'll deport you.

5:53

It's basically this mean that you would

5:55

see in a lot of different formats,

5:57

but here it's applied to, you know,

6:00

deportation and immigration and all these

6:02

very cruel kind of policies that are

6:04

very tough and very And they were

6:06

applying that kind of absurdity to that

6:08

and and it got a bunch of

6:11

views from people who supported it and

6:13

people who hated it They also did

6:15

yeah the ASMR video It's a very

6:17

meditative video. That's all about you know

6:19

giving you that tingling sensation with these

6:21

very peaceful sounds and they applied that

6:24

to what they call an illegal

6:26

alien deportation flight. So you see

6:28

this giant transport jet, you hear

6:30

the jet engines, you hear the

6:33

chains, and you see these men

6:35

who are being kind of marched

6:37

onto a plane to be deported

6:39

out of the country to... to who

6:42

knows where. As liberals would say,

6:44

the cruelty is the point, right?

6:46

They would say, this is a

6:49

really harsh way to talk about

6:51

deportations. These are people's lives. From

6:53

a content perspective, no matter what

6:56

you feel about the policy, that

6:58

is an effective strategy to get

7:00

their message out. So when the

7:02

White House saw that, they were

7:04

like, yeah, let's do more of

7:06

that. Let's keep pushing the boundaries

7:08

because it's working. They're not just

7:10

owning the headlines on print and

7:13

websites, but they're all over social

7:15

media too, right? They're everything anyone

7:17

can talk about. And we remember

7:19

from the first presidency, Trump would

7:21

tweet and every newsroom would scramble

7:23

to write about it. And even

7:25

if they were fact-checking it, Trump

7:27

was in the news. And that

7:29

helped make him the main character

7:32

of every news cycle every day.

7:34

And now here we are again,

7:36

right? It's a second presidency, second term.

7:38

And they are... are dominating our discussions. Yeah,

7:40

and part of that is their social media.

7:43

Yeah, but I guess like what's different? Because

7:45

to me, like what you're saying, it sounds

7:47

like a lot of the things that Democrats

7:49

have tried to do. So why is it

7:51

aside from that they're being overly inflammatory and

7:53

cruel, what is it that they're actually sort

7:55

of like materially doing differently than what Democrats

7:57

have done? Yeah, I think tangibly they're.

8:00

just leaning into I mean video right

8:02

like photo video kind of a modern

8:04

ways that people process information they're they're

8:06

posting short videos they're doing you know

8:08

direct to camera talk so they're on

8:11

the cutting edge on that as opposed

8:13

to just sort of like fact check

8:15

graphs and tweets from past campaigns. They're

8:17

unapologetic. I mean, the White House team,

8:20

a leader that I talked to, said

8:22

we basically see it as kind of

8:24

like smash mouth football. And that's very

8:26

aggressive, very combative, like in your face

8:29

all the time. They're not quibbling or

8:31

debating over policy. They're not recognizing nuance.

8:33

It's just we're going to hit you

8:35

in the face with the message and

8:38

the political talking point we want to

8:40

get across over and over again. And

8:42

if you agree with us, that's great.

8:44

agree with us? Maybe you'll see it

8:47

so much that you'll start to agree

8:49

with us. But that is that is

8:51

the underlying philosophy. I mean, you

8:53

talk a lot about video and

8:55

obviously they're doing so much on

8:57

TikTok and all of these sort

9:00

of video first platforms. But it

9:02

also seems like X has become

9:04

such a hub for political communication

9:06

in the White House specifically. Can

9:08

you talk about like X's role

9:10

in their content strategy and like

9:12

how how important is the of

9:14

the right, it's where every right wing

9:17

provocateur, every maga influencer is they use

9:19

the other platforms in different ways, but

9:21

X is, yeah, X is the spine

9:23

of all of this, which is kind

9:26

of funny because, you know, during the

9:28

first presidency Twitter was the spine of

9:30

all of Trump's communications, but there wasn't

9:33

a huge right wing presence there, right?

9:35

And there was even then constantly talk

9:37

about how Twitter was two left wing,

9:39

they had to leave for parlor and

9:42

getter and Gab and wherever else. But

9:44

that is all gone under Elon Musk,

9:46

right? And X is the place

9:48

where that conversation happened. So Trump

9:50

is on there. Elon Musk is

9:53

the most popular account there by

9:55

far, and he's constantly retweeting and

9:57

reposing. X's change to where you

9:59

know there is more video there

10:01

and so while they are using the

10:03

other platforms in kind of more tailored

10:06

ways, X is a place where they

10:08

know they are they can get virality

10:10

and they can reach people. Now the

10:12

X constituency has changed a lot too

10:15

where as more right wing people have

10:17

centralized there a lot of left wing

10:19

people have left but there's still enough

10:21

of a mainstream presence in their mind

10:24

that they can reach you know not

10:26

just sort of partisans on either side

10:28

but as as in the first presidency

10:30

a bunch of journalists who watch it

10:33

and in that case you know they're

10:35

trying to reach those people so they

10:37

can get into even the legacy media

10:39

presence and expand their their attention that

10:42

way. And what is the platform ecosystem

10:44

like for them? I mean, are they

10:46

still on parlor or rumble or like

10:48

these other right-wing sites or have they

10:51

sort of abandoned that and they're just

10:53

going mainstream now? Yeah, so they are

10:55

on the other platforms. The White House

10:57

opened like a rumble account recently so

11:00

they're on rumble. All of these have

11:02

kind of single serve purposes. They're not.

11:04

gaining new fans from something like rumble.

11:06

They're preaching to the choir in a

11:09

place like rumble or they're using it,

11:11

you know, to host video or that

11:13

could. But X is still the place

11:15

where it is their first stop for

11:18

messaging. When you think of the White

11:20

House and how successful it's been, I

11:22

always contrast it with at the Democrats.

11:24

Have you followed that account? Yeah. I

11:27

guess it's run by the DNC. Every

11:29

single time they post something is sort

11:31

of like immediately dragged as cringe and

11:33

out of touch. They did this really

11:36

bad post inauguration weekend I think that

11:38

was like a video of them printing

11:40

a sweatshirt that said Snowflake that they

11:42

wanted to give to Donald Trump or

11:45

something. Recently they also posted this like

11:47

impossible to read image that had this

11:49

like long list of accomplishments that they've

11:51

done, but you could barely read it.

11:54

People were comparing it to like the

11:56

Dr. Brauners bottle. What do you think

11:58

it is about their account that isn't

12:00

working when you, you know, like contrast

12:03

it was something like the White House

12:05

again? Because I feel like a lot

12:07

of the stuff that they that the

12:09

Democrats at the Democrats post is like

12:12

also trying. to lean into trends. It's

12:14

equally as corny, but it's like corny

12:16

to liberal. tailored towards liberals. So, you

12:18

know, are they doing something off or

12:21

wrong? Or is it just that they're

12:23

speaking to liberals and everyone hates liberals

12:25

right now? Probably a little bit of

12:27

that. I think they're trying to please

12:30

everyone all the time, and that is

12:32

not a winning formula, as we've seen

12:34

on social media, right? People want a

12:36

perspective, they want a point of view,

12:39

even cringe stuff in work. If people

12:41

believe the message, if it feels authentic,

12:43

be on the trend, but you know,

12:45

and I talked to people who are

12:48

part of that operation, which ultimately became

12:50

the Harris walls operation. And they were

12:52

saying, you know, we didn't really change.

12:54

We wanted to keep doing the kind

12:57

of stuff we ended up doing through

12:59

Kamala HQ. That was a lot more

13:01

on trend and that was more effective,

13:03

that was getting more viewership. But the

13:06

connection to the principle, Joe Biden, was

13:08

not there. It didn't feel right. It

13:10

didn't feel right, right, right. the team

13:12

of Gen Z people who's attached to

13:15

them, and they have to kind of

13:17

make it seem like it worked, and

13:19

it never really worked. And Kamala Harris

13:21

came in, and she was a little

13:24

goofier, and so they could try a

13:26

little more to make that connection seem

13:28

real. And they did, and they were

13:30

posting all sorts of like goofy stuff

13:33

that was going big on Tik Talk.

13:35

And it was surprising to me after...

13:37

the Harris loss that they seem to

13:39

get away from that and they kind

13:42

of retrench back to this classic style

13:44

of democratic messaging that was just often

13:46

very boring like you said I mean

13:48

that that post about their accomplishments was

13:51

it was giving soap label and that

13:53

nobody nobody wants to see that right

13:55

even if you're agreeing with that you

13:57

have to understand this is information that's

14:00

coming across and a fast scroll on

14:02

a feed where you've got a thousand

14:04

things competing for your attention it just

14:06

doesn't work. I have actually been interested

14:09

to watch the Democrats' account in the

14:11

last couple days because they posted something

14:13

a couple days ago that was just

14:15

a single photo from the Trump Elon

14:18

Musk event where they're selling Tesla's outside

14:20

the White House and the Democrats posted

14:22

a photo of that and they just

14:24

did a three-word caption, ugly ass truck.

14:27

It was ship posting, right? I mean,

14:29

it was just kind of like absurd.

14:31

But that post like did really well.

14:33

People were sharing it. They're like, ha

14:36

ha, you know. And so it's like,

14:38

this is not Lincoln Douglas debate here.

14:40

This is not like scoring political points.

14:42

But they're like, they're trying. You can

14:45

tell that they're trying to evolve. inflatable

14:47

two-barham guys? Yeah. Yeah, like on the

14:49

front of the White House with a

14:51

cyber truck. They're saying the White House

14:54

is a big car lot. Yeah. I

14:56

feel like it's attempting ship posting. The

14:58

problem that I think is sort of

15:00

like what they seem to have online

15:03

is like even that tweet like Ugly

15:05

Ast Truck. I think that's more forceful

15:07

than like any Democratic member of Congress

15:09

has ever said. I feel like they

15:12

have this deeply kind of like lame,

15:14

like rhetoric from their actual lawmakers and

15:16

then... they try to come online and

15:18

like clap back and it just falls

15:21

flat because it's like it just doesn't

15:23

seem like them. Political messaging, there is

15:25

a reason why there are a lot

15:27

of strategists in this space who act

15:30

like they know what they're talking about

15:32

or you know, sell their services for

15:34

this because it's difficult to reach a

15:36

lot of different types of audiences who

15:39

all want different things and you know,

15:41

with Trump you have this central. component

15:43

of power. You have Trump and you

15:45

know, the White House team talked about

15:48

this. They said, our job is easy

15:50

because we just followed the lead of

15:52

the big guy in the Oval Office.

15:54

Like, we know his attitude. We know

15:57

he's going to be fiery and throwing

15:59

out insults. Like, so we just copy

16:01

that behavior. Whereas with the Democrats, like,

16:03

who is the leader of the Democrats

16:06

right now? What attitude should they be

16:08

copying? You know, or should they be

16:10

more like AOC? and I think maybe

16:12

over time, maybe they'll find that, but

16:15

it's hard. And also you have to

16:17

reach different age ranges. People have to

16:19

understand it at different tiers, but yeah,

16:21

yeah, it's hard. I don't know. I

16:24

think a lot of their problems are

16:26

self-inflicted. Oh, it's so hard. Oh, it's

16:28

so hard. I don't know. I think

16:30

a lot of their problems are self-inflicted.

16:33

Oh, it's so hard. Who can you?

16:35

embrace this influencer strategy? How does their

16:37

sort of official White House strategy dovetail

16:39

with that influencer strategy that they've been

16:42

leveraging with the media? They're kind of

16:44

parallel but they're separate too. You have

16:46

the social media component that's trying to

16:48

put out their own content and then

16:51

you have the quote-unquote new media side

16:53

where they're trying to basically rebalance the

16:55

power away from legacy media, the TV

16:57

networks, the newspapers over to you know,

17:00

the creators of news related content, political

17:02

influencers, mostly mag influencers, definitely, who they're

17:04

welcoming into. the White House press briefing

17:06

rooms, they're allowing to ask questions in

17:09

the Oval Office. That component is we're

17:11

going to give you the material that

17:13

you can then take into your own

17:15

reports and give to your audience and

17:18

that hopefully we're going to get our

17:20

message out that way. So are the

17:22

White House people, basically you're saying like

17:24

packaging material for influencers or like distributing

17:27

like content to influencers to distribute? Yeah,

17:29

the White House team is definitely making

17:31

its own content and they're expecting. take

17:33

that baton and run with it. And

17:36

there's also just the classic communication venues

17:38

where there's the White House briefings, there's

17:40

the lawn interviews. When you say White

17:42

House briefings, like, Biden obviously made news

17:45

for a lot of his influencer briefings,

17:47

like briefing ticktockers on Ukraine or climate

17:49

or these other sort of issues, is

17:51

the White House holding similar briefings? I

17:54

mean, I know we saw the report

17:56

that they did with the Epstein. that

17:58

Epstein files, I guess, like, but are

18:00

they briefing them on other issues or

18:03

having, you know, calls with these groups

18:05

of people? It is a little different

18:07

than the Biden ones that you

18:09

scooped, basically, as opposed to having

18:12

specific, like, briefings with just individual

18:14

influencers separate to that Epstein files

18:16

one, which is kind of a

18:18

debacle on its own. They've been...

18:20

allowing those magga influencers into the

18:22

traditional spaces where it would have

18:25

just been broadcast, newspaper, journalists. So

18:27

they're kind of folding everybody in

18:29

together. Now I think they probably

18:31

will start having more briefings with

18:33

conservative influences. You've seen people like

18:35

Jack Basovia get like special, he's

18:37

gone on trips, been invited to

18:39

trips with Pete Hexeth, and so

18:42

I think you're going to be

18:44

seeing more of it. But they've

18:46

also just been trying to combine

18:48

them. because that builds up the

18:50

clout and the authority for those new

18:52

media influencers who are going

18:55

to be basically repeating the

18:57

administration's talking points already. So

19:00

they understand that there's an

19:02

opportunity to like... multiply

19:04

their messaging through these people who

19:07

are not so much journalists as

19:09

cheerleaders, like they're just going to

19:11

repeat the message. Yeah, I saw

19:13

that something like 14,000 of them

19:15

or something had applied for press

19:17

credentials within the first week of

19:19

them opening it up. How much

19:21

of this is really that new?

19:23

I mean, obviously, like, Biden worked

19:25

with influencers. Sure, they weren't in

19:27

the exact briefing room, but I

19:29

mean, Trump throughout his first term,

19:31

he had that social media. you

19:33

know, was credentialed for in the

19:35

White House press room in 2005.

19:37

So how different is his influencer

19:39

strategy really, you know, when

19:42

compared to sort of I guess like

19:44

previous precedents? It's really not

19:46

so different. Yeah. And I think you

19:48

can read some of the panic over

19:50

these new media voices getting a place

19:53

at the table as being very repetitive

19:55

of like the blogger panic from 20

19:57

years ago, where there was this push-up.

19:59

of legacy media journalists, you know, sometimes

20:02

feeling like they're the only ones that

20:04

can do it, they can do it

20:06

better than the new media. I think

20:08

the difference here is that this new

20:10

generation of new media journalists, there are

20:13

some who are more kind of down

20:15

the center, but there are ones that

20:17

are just very proudly, openly, pro magga,

20:19

you know, that that's part of their

20:21

audience, right? That they would never lie

20:24

about that. And they are being welcomed

20:26

into the room. to ask questions of

20:28

the White House, and then, you know,

20:30

a couple hours later go to an

20:32

event where they're very openly supporting the

20:35

policies that they were just reporting on.

20:37

And so, in that way, you know,

20:39

in the past, it was kind of

20:41

like new media was doing traditional journalism

20:43

using new tools, whereas this is, it's

20:46

not traditional journalism. It's a kind of

20:48

political infused, you know, advocacy. creation that

20:50

is using the tools and also is

20:52

kind of being welcomed in these spaces

20:54

where it was past reporting. But yeah,

20:57

it really is very similar and the

20:59

White House would agree with you. I

21:01

mean... from the White House's perspective and

21:03

they're right about this. These new media

21:06

creators have huge audiences. They can erase

21:08

people that way. They don't have to

21:10

filter their message through TV and radio

21:12

and newspapers. And they feel like those

21:14

medium are dying. They feel like they

21:17

are increasingly irrelevant. That's something we've talked

21:19

about also in its convenience to them

21:21

because those are also the journalists who

21:23

are... critically reporting on them and pushing

21:25

back on a lot of the things

21:28

they say. So there's a lot of

21:30

competing dynamics here, but it is not

21:32

entirely new. It's just, you know, that

21:34

the faces change and the technology changes.

21:36

How much of a power struggle is

21:39

there between the MAGA influencers? Because I've

21:41

been so interested to see like who's

21:43

getting chosen and who's not. You know,

21:45

you mentioned Jack Sobio and then also

21:47

like who was able to kind of

21:50

able to kind of, coming from other

21:52

right-wing influencers online, have you seen like

21:54

a hierarchy emerge in that online sphere?

21:56

You're definitely seeing in-fighting and yeah the

21:58

Epstein files was problematic in a lot

22:01

of different ways mainly because the files

22:03

weren't new right? They've been they've been

22:05

posted online years ago and you know

22:07

they were being held up with like

22:09

people smiling on their on their face

22:12

when this was like really serious... material.

22:14

But after that you saw people like

22:16

Laura Loomer saying this is all a

22:18

stunt, this is ridiculous, and so you

22:20

do see a lot of, yeah, infighting

22:23

even among the right, over methods, over

22:25

doctrine, people feeling like the others are

22:27

getting opportunities that I'm not getting. So

22:29

you have these little policy fights that

22:31

are playing out, and some of these

22:34

are not just over policy, but they're

22:36

also over attention and cloud and money.

22:38

That's going to be... a factor that

22:40

is going to be problematic for the

22:42

Trump White House because this is the

22:45

core of people they're depending on to

22:47

get their message out with a unified

22:49

voice and if they're at each other's

22:51

throats and tearing each other down, that's

22:53

going to be a distraction. This episode

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your data and your family's stays

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protected. Do they have like

24:27

one person like the way that

24:29

the White House previously had Christian

24:31

Tom under Biden? Do they have

24:34

like one point person dealing with

24:36

the sort of outside influencer stuff? They

24:38

have a team of people that are

24:40

handling different pieces of it. I don't

24:43

know who specifically would be in that

24:45

role, but they have a So it's

24:47

a group of people. It's not - Yeah,

24:49

it's a group of people. But you

24:51

have like a Steven Chung and the

24:53

Carolyn Leavitt who are handling different pieces

24:55

of it. Then there's kind of a

24:57

new media core under that. So yeah,

24:59

they're trying to industrialize a process here.

25:01

So it's not falling on any one

25:03

person. It seems like on the

25:05

other side of the spectrum, too, I mean,

25:07

there's been this sort of controversies, I

25:09

guess on the right about access and debates

25:11

between right -wing influencers. There's also been all

25:13

of this fighting within left wing or

25:15

more progressive and versus liberal influencers where I

25:17

feel like after the Democrats lost in

25:19

November, there was all of this soul searching

25:22

of people saying, oh, you know, we

25:24

need the Democrat Joe Rogan. And then you

25:26

had Brian Tyler Cohen coming out in

25:28

the New York Times saying, oh, we're going

25:30

to be that group. But it seems

25:32

like so far, the Democrats actually have not

25:34

expanded who the creators that they're working with.

25:36

Like they're working with the same groups

25:38

of creators that they worked with on the

25:40

campaign trail and the same groups of

25:42

creators that were, you know, the only ones

25:44

not blacklisted at the end of the

25:46

Biden administration. What do you make of that

25:48

dynamic and sort of what's happening on

25:50

the Democrat side? On the right, that was

25:52

not an infrastructure that was built overnight, right?

25:54

And even, you know, people like Joe Rogan,

25:56

it took many years for them to become

25:58

an established. figure who was

26:00

even getting involved in that and even

26:02

you know and as you know there

26:05

are different tears even you know Joe

26:07

Rogan is not explicitly political or at

26:09

least he wasn't before when he was

26:11

getting popular now he's a little more

26:13

but I think that's going to be

26:15

something the Democrats are trying to focus

26:17

on Adam Schiff was actually in Axios

26:19

today talking about how it's really important

26:21

not the Democrats don't just talk to

26:23

the people they talked to all the

26:25

time that that's a problem that they

26:27

need to change it. Something to see

26:29

you know the the people on the

26:31

left who are really good at this

26:33

people like AOC are in the minority

26:35

and there's still a lot of people

26:37

who depend on these classic years old

26:39

you know, dependence on the legacy media,

26:41

right? And expecting that the legacy media

26:43

will be the only way they can

26:45

get their message across. So I think

26:48

you're going to probably start seeing Democrats

26:50

do more podcasts, do more sports shows.

26:52

But are they only going to? Well,

26:54

they're definitely doing more. I mean, Josh

26:56

Shapiro was doing, I guess, like a

26:58

bunch of sports stuff. I feel like

27:00

the sports stuff they've like. tried to

27:02

go in there, although it reads so

27:04

corny. But same with like Timothy Shalibai

27:06

and his Oscar's campaign. Like sports are

27:08

this like easy thing that I feel

27:10

like when people want to rebrand themselves,

27:13

they like go on the college game

27:15

day or NBA. podcast or whatever. But

27:17

I'm just interested like from a political

27:19

standpoint or from like a cultural standpoint,

27:21

it doesn't seem like they've branched out

27:23

at all. And certainly they haven't engaged

27:25

with like the more left-wing creators who they

27:27

shunned so much, you know, during the campaign.

27:29

So I just am wondering if you think

27:32

that there will be any if you think there'll

27:34

be any change there. I mean, there should be,

27:36

right? Because you know, you know, you have people

27:38

on the left, you have people like Hasan piker

27:41

who are very popular and they have. be served

27:43

well by working with people like them. I

27:45

don't know what's in their head or what

27:47

their strategy is. And to the idea of

27:49

like it being Corny, Trump did a lot

27:51

of Corny stuff, right? Corny is in the

27:53

eye of the beholder, and Corny works often.

27:55

Trump was playing golf, he was welcoming people

27:57

on the Air Force One, he was eating,

27:59

he was... So it really is like

28:01

how you own the Coronian. And I

28:03

think for their purpose, what they need

28:05

to, I mean, what they should be

28:08

doing is humanizing themselves, right? That's what

28:10

we have seen worked. I don't know

28:12

what they'll do. They would be well

28:14

served to see what has worked for

28:17

Trump and co and emulate that, but

28:19

I don't know if they'll. they'll be

28:21

sharp enough to follow that. Well, one

28:23

big time Democrat that has kind of,

28:26

I guess, tried to dip their toe

28:28

into more of the new media ecosystem

28:30

is Gavin Newsom. I recently launched a

28:32

very cursed podcast where his first guest

28:35

was Charlie Kirk, I think, then he's

28:37

talked to Steve Bannon, but he seems

28:39

to just be wanting to talk to

28:41

like some pretty extreme right wing figures.

28:44

People have been posting about it, like

28:46

just historic levels of like missing the

28:48

moment or just like, I don't know,

28:50

it seems so out of out of

28:53

touch. think sort of engaging with and

28:55

sort of giving credence to even more

28:57

of these far-right influencers will work out.

28:59

I don't know. I mean, it has

29:02

been interesting. Gavin Newsom's foundational idea was

29:04

to talk to all of America, right?

29:06

And, you know, by having people like

29:08

Charlie Kirk and Steve Van and I,

29:10

I mean, these are people who you

29:13

can hear from in many different venues.

29:15

So it's, I could tell it was

29:17

like a big shock to people who

29:19

they were never expected, California Democrat, to

29:22

have these as the, again, the first

29:24

people on his show, the hell is

29:26

the audience for that podcast because these

29:28

right wingers already have a built-in audience

29:31

and they're basically just sort of trolling

29:33

him. And he doesn't come off looking

29:35

very smart in these interviews. And it's

29:37

sort of like, I guess it seems

29:40

to be like legitimizing these figures, but

29:42

it's like, why are you legitimizing those

29:44

figures to a more democratic audience? That

29:46

seems like the goal of the right.

29:49

So who is this podcast for? That's

29:51

what I'm wondering, I guess. That is

29:53

the criticism. And you know, for somebody

29:55

like Newsom who is very clearly angling

29:58

to be, you know, the 2028 nominee.

30:00

It is risky, right? To have the

30:02

guests on your Gavin Newsom show be

30:04

some of the biggest figures on the

30:07

right who are, you know, the anti-pit.

30:09

antipathy to everything you have been, you

30:11

know, voicing. So yeah, that is the

30:13

risk of being the person who talks

30:15

to those sides. And that, you know,

30:18

that has traditionally been why Democrats have

30:20

struggled because they have stayed within their

30:22

tribe. But have they? I feel

30:24

like I disagree. They haven't spoken

30:27

to their tribe. They won't speak

30:29

to progressives. They won't speak to

30:31

their base. They won't speak to

30:33

any big like leftist podcaster. The

30:36

ones that actually have cultural clout.

30:38

with a very, very narrow of

30:40

sort of like establishment adjacent centrist

30:42

Democrats, like the Podsave America people,

30:45

really. And then it seems like

30:47

now they're willing to engage the

30:49

right, which yeah, it's broadening yourself

30:51

from only engaging with centrist liberals.

30:53

But is that, are you broadening

30:55

yourself in a way that fires

30:57

up your base? I don't know.

30:59

And that's kind of what I see

31:02

as their tribe is the Podsave America

31:04

people who, you know, are popular within

31:06

their lane. but for whom there's a

31:08

lot of different shades outside of that

31:11

that they are not reaching and you're

31:13

not going to please everybody, but also

31:15

to jump to the right so quickly

31:17

I think is an interesting strategy for

31:19

them. I think it's too early to

31:22

know whether it'll work. He's obviously getting

31:24

a ton of flack on social media,

31:26

a lot of criticism already. What I

31:28

see from it, and you know, I

31:31

don't have an opinion, right? I'm a

31:33

reporter, but you know, I think there

31:35

was clearly a reflection on the left

31:37

that they missed something big with this

31:39

election by losing, and that they can't

31:41

just do what they've doing in the

31:44

past, which is either not going on

31:46

podcast or going on podcast in this

31:48

really constrained way where they only talked

31:50

about talking points or went into friendly

31:52

places. And Newsom show, whatever it is,

31:55

is a reflection that these these trying

31:57

something different, but also, you know, the

31:59

other criticism. Kirk's show because that would

32:01

be something totally different. I'm all for

32:03

them going on right. They should be

32:05

engaging with the other side. I think

32:07

that that is great. You can speak

32:09

to those audiences. There's value in going

32:11

to those places. I think what's just

32:14

so interesting to me is this is

32:16

I'm really interested to see who is

32:18

the audience for the podcast, basically. I

32:20

think the other criticism that I think

32:22

is interesting, too, is you're at this

32:24

moment where there are a lot of

32:26

things to talk about with the Trump

32:28

administration from the left, and there are

32:30

a lot of messages that are going

32:32

out there, and the Gavin Newsome show

32:34

is not, let's talk about those things.

32:36

It's... Hey, it's me, Gavin Newsom. And

32:39

it's very personality driven at a time

32:41

when the rest of his party is

32:43

trying to be very policy driven and

32:45

very like shining a light on the

32:47

things they're upset about. So that in

32:49

some ways is an interesting pushback on

32:51

his his. vision of what the influencer

32:53

model should be, where he's trying to

32:55

situate himself as the center of this

32:57

media universe and making it about him

32:59

at a time when a lot of

33:01

the party would like for them to

33:04

make it about the rest of the

33:06

country and the things that are happening

33:08

in Washington and all of the policies

33:10

they disagree with. Another thing that the

33:12

Trump White House seems to be really

33:14

good at is kind of inserting themselves

33:16

into pop culture discussions and pop culture

33:18

narratives, and the right generally seems to

33:20

be succeeding at this. I wrote a

33:22

lot about... I did a podcast episode

33:24

recently too about the Blake Lively Baldoni

33:26

stuff, how that's been this like pivotal

33:29

news story that the Wright has used

33:31

to kind of dismantle support me too.

33:33

But you're really seeing the emergence of

33:35

this like, you know, if you have

33:37

the bro sort of world on the

33:39

right, the Brocaster world, the All Right

33:41

pipeline for men. We're also seeing a

33:43

kind of a similar ecosystem now for

33:45

women and like this radicalization pipeline for

33:47

the right. on that side? Is the

33:49

Trump White House tapping into any of

33:52

that or are they trying to appeal

33:54

to women in any specific ways? Yeah,

33:56

I mean they are. You know, and

33:58

on the right, the long-term bug bear

34:00

has been the feeling that the left

34:02

owns... They own Hollywood, they own music,

34:04

you know, rightly or wrongly, there has

34:06

always been kind of a chip on

34:08

Republican shoulder that, you know, the liberals

34:10

get to run everything. And yet, Republicans

34:12

are a... big part of our country,

34:14

right? They are almost half the country,

34:17

if not more. And so there's a

34:19

feeling that like, hey, we get to

34:21

own some of the culture too. We're

34:23

not just one type of person that

34:25

they're trying to expand their purview or

34:27

at least trying to put out that

34:29

image, right? And they're using social media

34:31

and they're using, you know, really popular

34:34

influencers who are right wing, who are

34:36

very fiery and you have talked about

34:38

some of them in your recent post.

34:40

So, you know, people who are trying

34:43

to get big audiences that are not

34:45

the classic traditional. right-wing bro and trying

34:47

to tap into messages that they feel

34:50

like a resident to their own lives.

34:52

Yeah I guess I'm struggling to see

34:54

that like from the White House as

34:56

much like I feel like when when

34:59

Barack Obama was president like there was

35:01

so much of Michelle Obama and you

35:03

know she was doing so much to

35:05

speak to women and all these women's

35:07

initiatives I guess like while I see

35:10

it in the right wing creator creator

35:12

ecosystem and the right has invested so

35:14

heavily in building up targeting towards women

35:16

online. I am curious if you're seeing

35:19

that strategy replicated from the actual like

35:21

administration. That's a good point.

35:23

You haven't really seen anything

35:25

on that model. There's basically

35:27

like a class of magga celebrities

35:29

that you'll see in kind of

35:31

White House content often. There are

35:33

people like Kid Rock, right? Bryson

35:36

to Shambo, you know, that kind of like

35:38

people who you know who they are. And

35:40

these are popular people, but like it's not

35:42

the same as you saw during the Obama

35:44

White House. And that was kind of coming

35:46

out last year during the campaign where they

35:48

were like, we have Beyonce, we have Taylor

35:50

Swift, who do you have, you have Kid

35:52

Rock? And did it make a difference? Who

35:54

knows, right? Like, obviously, we know who won.

35:56

Well, I don't know that Beyonce and Taylor

35:59

Swift or like. the most reliable, like,

36:01

I mean, those are like corporate

36:03

billionaire women. Yeah, but I just mean, like,

36:05

they had those celebrities that they were holding

36:07

out as like, oh, now we have Taylor

36:09

Swift, so the vote is over. You mentioned

36:11

in your article that the goal of

36:13

the social media team in this administration

36:15

is to promote Trump as a king.

36:18

How are they doing that? What does that

36:20

mean? I mean, basically, Trump put out a

36:22

post saying, like, I'm the king, and it

36:24

got a lot of people upset, upset, and

36:26

then the social media team saw... that Republicans

36:28

were trolling liberals about how upset they

36:30

were over that, and so they were

36:33

like leaning into that, or putting out

36:35

posts where there were like AI generated-ish

36:37

images of Trump with the crown, and

36:40

they were putting him in all these

36:42

kingly, you know, and so like, from

36:44

that, the White House basically saw,

36:46

this is a great troll moment. We

36:48

could tell how agitated the other side

36:51

is, and... Trump feels like he is

36:53

the king, you know, in a way he

36:55

feels like he is the king, right? The

36:57

early months of his presidency have included him

36:59

putting out a lot of executive orders,

37:01

right? Partening his friends, doing all sorts

37:03

of things that he doesn't need anybody

37:06

else's approval to do. And so from

37:08

the White House perspective, they saw... One,

37:10

a way to get attention, right? But

37:12

also a way to build on that

37:14

narrative that Trump had already started himself,

37:16

where he is the strongman, he is

37:18

running the show, and he's somebody you

37:20

want to trust. He's somebody who is

37:22

using his power in the right way.

37:24

Artieur, well, thank you so much for

37:26

chatting with me today. Yeah, thanks for

37:29

having me. Thanks again to Delete Me

37:31

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