0:00

In the 1995 movie

0:00

Friday, the character big worm

0:04

has a line where he says,

0:04

playing with my money is like

0:08

playing with my emotions. You

0:08

may or may not think the movie

0:12

is a classic. But that line

0:12

definitely is the link between

0:17

money and emotions. That's what

0:17

we're talking about today. All

0:21

right, let's get into it. Welcome to practically married,

0:38

the podcast created to help

0:42

dating engaged and newly married

0:42

couples prepare for healthy long

0:47

term committed relationships.

0:47

I'm Paula Holt. And on this

0:51

show, I'm gonna bring you

0:51

conversations with experts who

0:55

will give you tools to take your

0:55

relationship to the next level.

0:59

Although many of our guests will

0:59

be therapists, please keep in

1:02

mind that practically married is

1:02

for educational purposes only,

1:07

and is not a substitute for

1:07

therapy with a licensed

1:10

professional. Hey, I hope you're doing well.

1:14

And thanks for being here.

1:17

Today's show is the first of

1:17

back to back episodes about

1:21

money. We're talking with Ed

1:21

combs, who is an author, and the

1:25

rare combination of a certified

1:25

financial planner, and a

1:30

licensed Marriage and Family

1:30

Therapist. And our conversation

1:34

about the emotional side of

1:34

money. It breaks down attachment

1:38

styles, and how they impact our

1:38

behavior around money. He also

1:42

explains the emerging field of

1:42

financial therapy, and tells us

1:46

when we might want to consider it. In you uses his personal story

1:49

to share how internalize gender

1:53

expectations can impact our

1:53

feelings about money within the

1:58

context of relationships. And he

1:58

even gets me to talk about one

2:02

of my first significant money

2:02

memories. So let's welcome Ed

2:06

comes to the show. Hi, and welcome to the

2:11

practically Mary podcast. Hey,

2:14

Paula, so good to be here with

2:14

you. I am excited to have you

2:18

here. Because I think when

2:18

people think about money, they

2:23

think about the dollars and

2:23

cents, right? They think about

2:25

what they make what they owe,

2:25

oftentimes they think about what

2:29

they don't make and what they

2:29

don't have. And I think you're

2:33

here I know you're here to talk

2:33

to us about another side to

2:37

money. And that's the emotional

2:37

side. And that is really the

2:40

foundation for our experience

2:40

around money. Yeah, absolutely.

2:46

Right. And just even in that

2:46

when we think about how much we

2:49

make or don't make or have or

2:49

don't have. There's emotion tied

2:53

to that. Right? Well, we'll have

2:53

Natalie Slagle from fuse

2:57

financial planning, who I know

2:57

you're very familiar with. We're

3:01

gonna have her on to talk about

3:01

some of the nuts and bolts of

3:04

finances. But, but I think it's

3:04

important to first talk about

3:09

this emotional side. Before we

3:09

get into that, I have to say it,

3:13

and listening to your podcast,

3:13

and reading your book, and also

3:18

your blog. I love it. I am just

3:18

fascinated by your background.

3:23

It is a former firefighter and

3:23

attended Seminary has an MBA. Am

3:31

I missing anything here? A

3:31

master of science in financial

3:35

planning would be the third

3:35

graduate degree because, you

3:38

know, it turns out that I'm a super

3:40

nerd. I didn't know that. Yeah,

3:43

when I was 18. But now I know

3:43

that for is true. Well, not only

3:47

that, but a helper, obviously,

3:47

because all those other things

3:51

are helping professions. So so

3:51

then the other thing I noticed

3:56

that I just have to commend you

3:56

on is your willingness to be

3:59

vulnerable. That that comes across so

4:01

clearly in your book. And then I

4:05

happen to go on your blog. And

4:05

notice that was literally the

4:07

title of your recent blog posts.

4:12

As that that's just a great

4:12

thing for you to model. So I

4:17

appreciate that. Well, I

4:17

appreciate that. And I really

4:21

think that that's it'd be interesting to ask my

4:23

high school friends if that's

4:25

the way they saw me and

4:25

experience me I think they would

4:27

have said I was nice, kind of

4:27

thoughtful but vulnerable, maybe

4:31

not quite as much it's it's been

4:31

something that's emerged more

4:35

and more for me as have healed

4:35

and work through my own history

4:39

and trauma. And and that was

4:39

something I didn't even know I

4:41

needed to do before I became a

4:41

therapist. Well, it, it

4:46

definitely comes through in your

4:46

work. And like I said, I think

4:48

it's a great model for people to

4:48

to try to tap into their own

4:54

vulnerability. So so let's talk

4:54

about financial intimacy.

5:00

Because when people think about

5:00

justice, when people think about

5:02

money, they're thinking of

5:02

dollars and cents. If you ask

5:06

people about intimacy, they are

5:06

thinking about they think about

5:10

sexual intimacy, or even emotional intimacy. So

5:12

what is financial intimacy? What

5:18

really draws on that same

5:18

underlying principle that's true

5:21

in both sexual intimacy and

5:21

financial or emotional intimacy,

5:25

right is, and it ties with

5:25

vulnerability is I'm willing to

5:29

be seen and known and all of who

5:29

I am, I'm willing to get naked

5:32

in the dark, or with the lights

5:32

on rather, right. And so I think

5:37

a lot of times, we would rather

5:37

kind of keep the darks the

5:40

lights down. And you can only really see this

5:42

part I'm gonna, you know, cover

5:45

up and put my Spanx on for my

5:45

budget. So you can see not

5:49

seeing how you know, that extra

5:49

five pounds or whatever. So know

5:53

about the Spanx? Well, that's

5:53

why most women know about the

5:57

space. Right? And so

6:02

what's the guy equivalent to

6:02

space? No, after Manx, I think

6:05

there might be something probably needs to be if there

6:08

isn't. That's a different show.

6:12

Right. But when we think about

6:12

financial intimacy,

6:16

when we're in a committed

6:16

intimate relationship with an

6:19

intimate partner, or even in our

6:19

own family,

6:22

money flows through that

6:22

relationship, and is shaping and

6:27

influencing what both people can

6:27

do or not do and how they see

6:31

themselves in the relationship. And the ability to foster

6:33

financial intimacy means we can

6:36

talk about what that means, what

6:36

that looks like, what that feels

6:39

like, what it feels like when

6:39

you come to talk to me about the

6:42

budget and spending. So I had a new couple that I'm

6:45

starting to work with for

6:48

financial planning. And they got

6:48

all their information, upload

6:52

it, and then I sent them some

6:52

reflection questions. And I

6:54

said, Well, what was this

6:54

experience? Like for both of

6:57

you? What worked? Well, what did

6:57

it feel like? And the wife said

7:03

it well, he kind of control the

7:03

whole process and wouldn't let

7:05

me put in anything. And, okay, right. And that's

7:08

their starting place. And that's

7:12

not uncommon. But it's, it is in

7:12

that timing and pacing, and how

7:17

much do you engage in include

7:17

the other person in that process

7:20

of looking at reviewing,

7:20

planning and thinking about your

7:24

shared financial life? Well, part of I think getting to

7:26

financial intimacy, as I

7:31

understand it, is really taking

7:31

a look for each partner to take

7:34

a look at their money history.

7:34

And again, we're not talking

7:38

about numbers here. So tell me

7:38

what we are thinking about or

7:43

what we should be thinking about

7:43

when we think about our money

7:46

history? Well, it is, it's, it

7:46

is some degree, the numbers.

7:52

Yes, right. But it's the meaning

7:52

given to those numbers. So an

7:58

example is what was that first

7:58

pair of shoes that you can

8:01

remember trying to buy with your

8:01

parents? Like, right? We pretty

8:04

much all have that? Yes. For me,

8:04

it was a boombox. I remember the

8:09

first boom, when I saved up for

8:09

a boombox, maybe I'm showing my

8:12

age now. But that's with you. I

8:12

was a boombox. Yeah, right. And

8:17

what was that experience like for you? I saved up for that boombox. And

8:21

it was such a source of pride

8:26

for me when I bought it. I

8:26

cherished it. I could actually

8:29

call it baby. It was my baby. So

8:29

yeah, that memory is very clear.

8:35

Right. And that probably left

8:35

you with a sense of financial

8:37

empowerment. I can do this. It.

8:37

Yeah, it was the first evidence

8:41

that I could save over time and

8:41

get something that I want it.

8:47

And did you have adults in your

8:47

life that affirmed you or

8:50

compliment you for that journey

8:50

that you took to get to the

8:53

boombox? You know, I don't have

8:53

a clear memory of that at the

8:58

time. But I remember it coming

8:58

up later down the line as a

9:04

positive thing that I was able

9:04

to do. Even my sister I think I

9:08

remember more her commenting on

9:08

it. She's five years older. So I

9:12

think she was kind of impressed

9:12

by it.

9:15

That's what I remember. Oh, I

9:15

appreciate you sharing that

9:18

because it brings up such a

9:18

valuable point about our money

9:20

history, or any of us that grow

9:20

up with siblings. Money and

9:25

siblings is a whole nother very

9:25

interesting dynamic. Yes, it is.

9:29

Let's let's go in your mind as I

9:29

say that.

9:33

I feel very fortunate. I have

9:33

one sibling. I have older

9:36

sister. And I feel very

9:36

fortunate that we have been able

9:39

to work together. You mentioned

9:39

financial was a family systems.

9:44

Yeah. And we're absolutely

9:44

there's a family system and

9:48

there is a interconnectedness

9:48

around money particularly as it

9:53

has related to our parents and

9:53

then also family property and I

9:58

just I feel very appreciate tip that she and I have been

10:00

always able to work well

10:03

together when it comes to money. Right? So that that

10:06

collaborative ability is really

10:10

such a nice thing to be able to

10:10

leverage and use and that you,

10:14

it sounds like I'm imagining

10:14

share the responsibility of

10:16

helping mom and dad out to and

10:16

that may include even sharing

10:20

financial resources or financial

10:20

responsibility for them. Yes.

10:24

Now those two go hand in hand

10:24

for us. And sadly, that's not

10:28

always the case for many folks,

10:28

right? They can, I feel

10:31

fortunate. Yeah. Right. Because

10:31

you're mature enough, you have

10:34

enough experience in life to

10:34

know, not everybody has great

10:37

relationships with their siblings. And sometimes there's very antagonistic things that

10:39

happen between siblings and

10:42

money. And so these are all, all of

10:43

these experiences are impacting

10:49

our sense of what's possible for

10:49

us with money and relationships.

10:55

Right. So probably the story in

10:55

your head mostly is, I can be

10:58

pretty effective with money. And

10:58

I can count on my sister to be

11:03

there for me while we work

11:03

through things, yes. Right.

11:06

Because you have, and we could

11:06

spend hours asking you more

11:09

questions about you. Yes, it'd

11:09

be like, financial therapy.

11:14

That's a great and fun thing

11:14

about these interviews is

11:16

oftentimes there's a little

11:16

slice of therapy that ends up

11:19

getting dropped in there. But it

11:19

makes that therapy, I can get

11:23

it. I'll gladly share what I kid

11:29

is, because we have, our brains

11:29

are meaning making machines. And

11:35

the way we make meaning is by

11:35

having experiences.

11:39

And those experiences start to

11:39

connect to each other in the

11:43

neural pathways of our brain.

11:43

And then that sets the story in

11:47

our brain about what's happening. And so why we start to, in

11:50

financial therapy, ask people

11:53

about their relationship in

11:53

history with money is because it

11:57

starts making things seem much

11:57

less random, or out of control.

12:04

I don't know why I'm having this

12:04

problem. I don't know why

12:06

they're doing this. I don't know

12:06

why my spending is out of

12:10

control. That's right. Or I

12:10

don't know what to do about it.

12:14

Or maybe they have an

12:14

explanation my spending is out

12:17

of control, because I just love to shop.

12:22

Okay, cool. Well, tell me a

12:22

little bit more about your

12:26

history around shopping. What

12:26

did it mean for you as a child,

12:31

and for some people, it means

12:31

relationally bonded time, that

12:36

shop with my mother, for

12:36

example. Yeah, and maybe it was

12:40

a lot of fun, and you had a good

12:40

time, and you got a special

12:43

treat, or you shared stories or

12:43

when you could be vulnerable.

12:48

Right. So there's all kinds of

12:48

different things, or it could be

12:53

the other side is, and every

12:53

time we went shopping, it was

12:55

just full of pain and dread and

12:55

anxiety. And my parents was

13:00

complaining about not having

13:00

enough money. And now like, I

13:04

don't want to have that. That

13:04

problem, but I'm doing I'm

13:08

shopping compulsively and it's

13:08

out of control. We all started

13:13

our childhood, financially

13:13

dependent on our parents.

13:16

And that feeling of growing into

13:16

adulthood and autonomy and kind

13:21

of the phrase, you can't tell me what to do. Right. And so we know from

13:24

family therapy, that oftentimes

13:28

will be reacting against some

13:28

message that we got from our

13:32

family, and especially such

13:32

powerful messages around money

13:36

and spending, but we don't have

13:36

any money to spend on that. So

13:39

people will swing the other side, and I'm gonna make a bunch of money and spend whatever I

13:41

want whenever I want, so that I

13:43

never have to feel that pain of

13:43

being restricted again. But

13:46

that's a pendulum swing to the

13:46

other side.

13:50

So if you're, let's say, an

13:50

engaged couple, or you know,

13:54

seriously dating, even newly

13:54

married, and you're thinking

13:57

about how to get deeper around

13:57

money and how to grow that

14:01

financial intimacy, would you

14:01

say the first step is to talk

14:05

about these kinds of money?

14:05

Memories, money stories? Yeah,

14:09

right. I think in a, in a

14:09

reasonably healthy, reasonably

14:12

high functioning, intimate

14:12

relationship that's forming.

14:15

Most people don't know that they

14:15

should be asking money history

14:18

questions of their partner. So I would encourage you to do

14:21

that. But if you get stuck doing

14:25

that, that's really powerful

14:25

information.

14:29

Right? If you start to ask

14:29

those, tell me about past

14:32

experiences with money, what

14:32

felt good for you in your

14:34

childhood around money and

14:34

spending? What didn't feel so

14:37

good. If they're not able to openly

14:39

reflect and talk about that in a

14:42

reasonably emotionally balanced

14:42

way, that's a sign that there

14:46

was probably some real pain because they may you may start

14:48

probing and asking some

14:51

questions and they may get really mad, or they may just get really

14:54

some withdraw in either and

15:00

that emotional reactivity is a

15:00

sign that there's something so

15:02

painful for them around what

15:02

happened with the money? Well,

15:06

that leads me to ask you a

15:06

question around attachment

15:10

styles. Because we're talking

15:10

about money history and kind of

15:15

the family of origin. And your

15:15

attachment styles are another

15:19

thing that kind of is formed in

15:19

those early years of life. And

15:23

I, I've heard about attachment

15:23

styles quite a bit. I think

15:26

people hear about it. But it's

15:26

something to kind of wrap our

15:30

minds around. So can you take us

15:30

through? What are the different

15:34

attachment styles and how they

15:34

relate to money? Yeah,

15:39

absolutely. So attachment styles

15:39

grow out of the psychological

15:43

study of human relationships,

15:43

and caregiving experiences,

15:47

right? So over the last 80

15:47

years, psychologists have been

15:51

trying to study and understand

15:51

how do our early caregiving

15:54

experiences shape our relational

15:54

expectations? And how do those

16:00

early childhood experiences? Do

16:00

they get carried forward into

16:03

our adulthood? Or do they not?

16:03

Right, kind of that question of

16:07

how much does my family

16:07

upbringing actually impacted me?

16:11

Right, that's kind of the

16:11

question that people will

16:13

grapple with. And so the the

16:13

science in doing lots of

16:19

observation studies looking at

16:19

and seeing what happens when mom

16:22

looks at a baby doesn't look at

16:22

a baby, how often do they need

16:25

to do it? What's happening for

16:25

them, we

16:29

have identified four primary

16:29

categories of attachment or

16:33

relational bonding. They are

16:33

secure,

16:38

anxious, avoidant, and

16:38

disorganized. And so these are

16:45

broad categories or ways of

16:45

experiencing relationship. And

16:49

the important thing to keep in

16:49

mind is as humans and and part

16:52

of the broader social, animal

16:52

kingdom, we're highly

16:55

relational. We're wired to be

16:55

relational.

16:58

And so our sense of who am I

16:58

good, and is this other person

17:04

good, is a big part of that. And

17:04

when we have a secure

17:07

attachment, typically, we see

17:07

ourselves on the whole positive

17:11

way, and we see other people in

17:11

a positive way. And we expect

17:14

that we can interact and receive

17:14

comfort and care from another

17:17

person, and that they'll be able

17:17

to reciprocate that with us.

17:21

Okay, so this person will take

17:21

care of me, this person will

17:25

take care of me, and this person

17:25

will allow being taken care of.

17:29

Okay? Right. So it's, that's

17:29

where the risk or the give and

17:33

take back and forth, okay, comes

17:33

to play the ratio, and the

17:37

balance of that could be

17:37

6040 4060 7030. Right. But there

17:42

is some give and take. And they

17:42

generally see themselves and

17:45

other people as trustworthy.

17:45

Now, you can imagine, if that's

17:48

your relationship map or

17:48

template, it's gonna be a lot

17:52

easier to have conversations

17:52

about money, or anything else

17:56

for that matter. Right? Right.

17:56

That's right. That's right.

18:01

So that's not to say that they

18:01

don't have their own

18:06

insecurities or concerns from

18:06

time to time, it's just what

18:09

they can manage that they can be

18:09

more self reassuring, or seek

18:13

reassurance and, and believe

18:13

that it's true. For those that

18:18

get categorized in the anxious

18:18

attachment style, they often

18:22

have not such a good view of

18:22

themself, and a more positive

18:26

view of others, they put others

18:26

on a pedestal, if you will. And

18:30

they're regularly trying to

18:30

please them make them happy, or

18:35

overly concerned with how

18:35

they're doing, often have a hard

18:38

time thinking about their own

18:38

needs, wants and desires. So in

18:42

that anxious attachment, how

18:42

would that demonstrate itself?

18:47

Or how might it demonstrate

18:47

itself when it comes to money?

18:51

Yeah, so a couple might be

18:51

giving kid your kids more and

18:57

more money without setting

18:57

boundaries or limits because you

18:59

can't tolerate them being upset

18:59

with you. Or saying no more

19:03

without an engaged couple. Let's

19:03

say they don't have kids, but

19:07

two partners. Yeah, so deferring

19:07

to what the other partner wants

19:12

to do, how the other partner

19:12

wants to spend the money, how

19:15

much money they want to spend on

19:15

the next vacation on the car,

19:20

that maybe they're gonna buy

19:20

together on how much the

19:23

apartments can, they're going to spend. And so, right, right, that's a

19:26

big one. That's been that's the

19:30

big early expense, right? That

19:30

is, you do it that is a real

19:34

litmus test for how you're going

19:34

to navigate money together. Yes.

19:39

And a number of other things,

19:39

right? Oh, managing laws and a

19:44

variety of other areas. The

19:44

wedding touches on? Well, you

19:48

because you get into the family

19:48

money system that you refer to

19:51

right. A family system is a

19:51

connection of different people.

19:55

A lot of times we talked about

19:55

it as a children's more war.

19:58

Right. And like a family says Time is like a children's

20:00

mobile, you move one part and it

20:02

moves everything else. Right?

20:02

And so families are often

20:06

contributing financial resources

20:06

into the wedding or not. And

20:10

that evokes a lot of reactions,

20:10

feelings about what's going on.

20:16

So what about the avoidant

20:16

attachment style? Yeah, so that

20:20

that person is typically more

20:20

standoffish, I'm gonna do things

20:24

myself, they're less likely to

20:24

let you into their world

20:28

emotionally, what's happening

20:28

for them, that typically will

20:31

see themselves as a little

20:31

better than others. And they've

20:37

eat, the thing to remember about

20:37

each of the attachment styles is

20:39

they were adaptive, given the

20:39

context you were living in. So

20:44

if you had a caregiver that was

20:44

inconsistently unavailable to

20:47

support you? Well, it's adaptive

20:47

to become more self reliant and

20:50

not trust that people can really understand your needs. Right?

20:55

Right. Or you may have that same

20:55

inconsistent Lee unavailable

20:58

caregiver, and you may try to

20:58

make them happy and get them

21:01

engaged. And I'll do this, and

21:01

I'll do this, and I'll do this

21:03

and just trying to because you

21:03

need that support. That's the

21:07

anxious and that's the anxious,

21:07

right, so you can have the same

21:09

parent. And one child may go

21:09

towards the anxious side, and

21:13

another child may go towards the

21:13

avoidant side. Okay. And so if

21:19

you have an avoidant style, or

21:19

if your partner does, what might

21:24

that look like in a relationship

21:24

when it comes to money? Yeah, I

21:27

think one of the most practical

21:27

ones is I'm going to do the

21:29

money. I'm going to manage the

21:29

money, I'm not going to consult

21:32

with you about what's happening

21:32

with the money. And, yeah, so

21:37

there's gonna be a real

21:37

distancing. Okay, and then what

21:40

about disorganized? Is that a

21:40

little of both? Or it is, yeah,

21:45

you picked up on it perfectly.

21:45

Typically, what in the backdrop

21:50

is the caregiving was very

21:50

inconsistent that that person

21:53

receives, so sometimes I'm

21:53

there, I'm unavailable for you.

21:56

Sometimes I'm scary and

21:56

threatening as a parent can give

21:58

her. Sometimes I'm depressed and

21:58

withdrawn as a caregiver. And so

22:02

it's like, I don't really know

22:02

what to expect in relationships.

22:07

And that's right. So most

22:07

parents have a kind of

22:11

predictable way that they'll

22:11

show up in the relationship. But

22:15

in this case, is unpredictable.

22:15

It's much more unpredictable.

22:19

Right? So then that person with

22:19

that type of parent develops,

22:24

it's almost like a coping

22:24

mechanism, right, or a coping

22:26

strategy to deal with that

22:26

inconsistent care. And then,

22:32

again, how does that play out? In terms of in our relationship,

22:35

and particularly, our

22:38

relationship at this critical

22:38

stage of, you know, getting

22:42

engaged and kind of deciding to

22:42

have a future together? This one

22:46

is where you get the really hot

22:46

and cold relational experience.

22:51

I want to be with you. No, I don't want to be with you. I want to be with you. No, I don't

22:53

want to be with you back and

22:55

forth, back and forth. And it's,

22:55

it feels somewhat unpredictable,

23:00

depending on the degree or

23:00

severity. But typically, they're

23:04

really hot or really cold. Or

23:04

they're vacillating back and

23:08

forth. Okay. Well, let's talk about how some

23:11

of these attachment styles might

23:16

impact some hot button issues in

23:16

relationships and money.

23:21

You know, one of the big

23:21

decisions that couples have to

23:24

make early on is about combining

23:24

money, and how they'll do it.

23:29

And if they'll do it, and how

23:29

much

23:33

you laugh you. You've seen this

23:33

in your in your work, I'm sure

23:37

quite a bit. Yeah, yeah. Can you give me an

23:39

example of like how the

23:43

different attachment styles

23:43

could play out around

23:45

specifically the issue of

23:45

combining money? Yeah,

23:49

absolutely. So if we start with

23:49

two people both have securely

23:53

attached, then they're going to

23:53

take a more likely a proactive

23:57

approach to talking about what's

23:57

going to work for both of us.

24:01

And what your What's that

24:01

balance of bringing all our

24:04

money together, the more likely

24:04

they're to be able to trust each

24:08

other. So they're probably more

24:08

likely be willing to just bring

24:10

all the finances together. Right? They, they have on the

24:13

whole less relational mistrust.

24:18

And a lot of times when couples

24:18

are going back and forth on how

24:21

to bring their finances

24:21

together, relational trust is a

24:24

massive part of the equation.

24:24

And they've seen experiences in

24:28

the past where relational trust

24:28

around money has been violated.

24:33

I can see where if you have kind

24:33

of a high level of relational

24:36

trust, you might feel good about

24:36

combining all your money, but I

24:41

could also see if you have that

24:41

high level, you might feel fine

24:45

about kind of a mine yours ours

24:45

approach, right? Because if you

24:49

trust your partner, do you trust

24:49

them to have some independent

24:54

money is that would you agree

24:54

with that? Yeah, absolutely. I

24:58

think that they they're going to be most likely it'd be flexible around the

25:00

different ways that couples

25:03

decide on how they want to

25:03

manage the money. But even in

25:06

that Yours, Mine and Ours,

25:06

philosophy beneath that,

25:12

sometimes is mistrust.

25:15

Right, like so what's so we got

25:15

to get curious about why do we

25:19

want to organize the money that

25:19

way? Right? What's motivating

25:22

that beneath it? Hey, just a quick break in this

25:26

interview to let you know about

25:30

one other free resources

25:30

available at practically married

25:33

that net, download our 10 Questions

25:35

checklists. So you and your

25:38

partner can answer questions

25:38

from each of the 10 practically

25:41

marry subjects, including money,

25:41

sex, in laws and more. After you

25:47

answer all the questions, send

25:47

me a DM at gay practically Mary,

25:51

and let me know how it went.

25:51

Okay, back to our conversation.

25:58

So the issue is not the actual

25:58

breakdown of the money. It's

26:02

more the why behind it. And the

26:02

why behind it could be a variety

26:09

of things. Okay, yeah. And that's where you

26:11

can ask about what have you seen

26:15

work well, or not well, and your

26:15

family around managing money,

26:20

and that will give some clues to

26:20

Okay. So that so I guess that's

26:24

the big thing for a couples to

26:24

take away is the breakdown of

26:28

how they do money is is the

26:28

issue to decide. But really,

26:34

they need to get to the why

26:34

behind whatever it is, if it's

26:38

if it's putting all the money

26:38

together?

26:42

Because that could be there

26:42

could be a trust issues,

26:46

negative trust issues around

26:46

that, right? Because like, I

26:48

want all the money together,

26:48

because I don't trust you to

26:51

have separate money. Or it could

26:51

be I completely trust you. And

26:56

we have our money together. So

26:56

it seems like it's it's more

27:00

about the why in all the

27:00

different ways you could do

27:03

money the completely together

27:03

completely separate, or mine,

27:07

yours and ours, the hybrid?

27:07

Yeah, absolutely. And I think so

27:12

it's allowing space for some

27:12

nuance there. And I think one of

27:16

the things that I tried to be

27:16

different than many other

27:19

financial professionals is

27:23

I've unfortunately worked with

27:23

enough clients where someone

27:25

said you should do it this way.

27:29

And that was the wrong advice

27:29

for that couple. Right? Whatever

27:33

that way is. So if it doesn't

27:33

feel right, to either one or

27:38

both of you, then it's not right for both of you. And it might be a journey to try

27:42

to get it unpacked to figure out

27:44

what is going to be that it

27:44

feels good for both of you. But

27:47

this kind of goes back to that

27:47

sexual intimacy piece, right? Is

27:52

we are moving towards trying to

27:52

find a way that's mutually

27:56

pleasurable for both of us. If

27:56

either one of us are

28:00

experiencing pain, that's a sign

28:00

that we need to stop and figure

28:03

out what's going on. Right? We

28:03

don't we're not trying to force

28:06

ourselves on our partner in

28:06

sacks or in money. Right. And I,

28:12

I'm, I'm feeling that sense of

28:12

seriousness come up. But this is

28:14

very, very serious. No, it is,

28:14

is I think,

28:19

I think many people who would not equate

28:20

those, and would say, of course,

28:25

I know not to force myself on my

28:25

partner sexually, but would not

28:30

equate that with, if I force my

28:30

money, opinions on my partner,

28:35

is also a violation and might be

28:35

on a different level a different

28:38

time. But it's it's a violation.

28:38

It's still a violation of the

28:43

psychological space, right? In a

28:43

sense of safety, that sense of

28:47

psychological safety, right?

28:47

There's a reason why we're doing

28:51

what we're doing with money,

28:51

whether we know it or not, is

28:54

another question. But if we

28:54

don't know why we're doing that,

28:57

and how to work through that,

28:57

that's where financial therapy

29:01

comes into play, so that we can

29:01

work through that there's the

29:03

same reason why we have sex therapy. Well, when you talk about

29:06

financial therapy, what do you

29:09

mean by that? Because I know a

29:09

lot of couples are, you know,

29:12

familiar with couples therapy,

29:12

but financial therapy is not as

29:16

well known and and a newer

29:16

branch of therapy. Can you tell

29:20

us a little bit about what that

29:20

is? Yeah, absolutely. So there's

29:25

a massive gap in the marketplace

29:25

of understanding. Financial

29:29

Planners are trained to look at

29:29

the objective numbers and

29:32

understand how they all work.

29:32

And that's very, very valuable.

29:36

Couples therapists are trained

29:36

to understand how couples

29:38

interact with each other and how

29:38

to help them bring restoration

29:41

to the relationship to increase

29:41

trust and safety in the

29:43

relationship. The challenge is, and it's the

29:46

same reason why sex therapy

29:50

exists. Is human sexuality in

29:50

what I would call human

29:54

financial reality, are immensely

29:54

complex topics unto themselves.

29:59

They They have some technical How

30:00

does money work pieces, and they

30:03

have some psychological

30:03

relational pieces. But it's that

30:06

intersection that comes

30:06

together. And so couples

30:08

therapists, often have no

30:08

technical knowledge of how money

30:11

works are very limited. And they have no understanding

30:14

of the psychology of money,

30:18

that, that we have a

30:18

relationship with money. And

30:21

that relationship with money may

30:21

have pain in it that needs

30:24

therapeutic support. And so relational health alone

30:26

is not enough to overcome some

30:32

money traumas and money injuries

30:32

that couples bring forward.

30:36

And so financial therapists are

30:36

specifically trained in both

30:40

areas. So there's a range there

30:40

for the different people

30:45

practicing financial therapy on

30:45

their

30:49

starting professional education

30:49

and background.

30:52

And so this is something as

30:52

consumers, they need to be very

30:54

thoughtful about when they're

30:54

hiring someone that says that

30:57

they're a financial therapist,

30:57

there are some people that come

31:00

more from the traditional

31:00

financial planning side. And

31:04

they've learned and study some

31:04

of the financial therapy

31:06

techniques and practices. So their strength is still going

31:09

to probably be more on technical

31:12

financial planning practices,

31:12

you're gonna have people coming

31:16

in from the therapy side,

31:16

they're really skilled in

31:18

particular areas of healing. And

31:18

they they're applying it to a

31:23

couple's financial life and studying that. And so, neither is good or bad.

31:27

It's just how did they mean be

31:31

able to get with you and how to

31:31

work with you. Okay. And so, if

31:37

a couple was thinking that maybe

31:37

they're having some financial,

31:43

some challenges around

31:43

establishing financial intimacy,

31:46

here's when I, because I almost

31:46

no financial challenges, but

31:49

financial challenges could be

31:49

one of us lost our job. And now

31:53

we have financial challenges.

31:53

And that's very different than

31:57

we're at an impasse on making

31:57

decisions, or we don't agree or

32:00

we're fighting about money. And

32:00

so I guess I'm what I'm

32:05

wondering is, what are the

32:05

criteria that you think couples

32:08

should consider in deciding to

32:08

go to financial therapy? Yeah,

32:12

and here's, here's where I would

32:12

like the listeners to to be

32:16

mindful, and this is a big ass,

32:16

you may need to work with all

32:19

three professionals. Not maybe simultaneously. But if

32:22

you've tried working with a

32:26

financial planner, that hasn't

32:26

helped bring clarity to what's

32:28

happening for you financially,

32:28

okay. If you're embittered, and

32:32

lots of conflict and lots of

32:32

resentment, not just related to

32:35

money, but many other aspects of

32:35

life, you probably want to start

32:38

with a couples therapist. If you've tried both of those,

32:41

which I have clients that I've

32:44

tried both of those, and they're

32:44

still stuck around money, that

32:48

makes it very easy. It's time

32:48

for a financial therapist, but

32:50

if you haven't tried any of

32:50

those,

32:54

then it may be helpful to just

32:54

go and start with a financial

32:58

therapist. So what are those

32:58

warning signs that say, Okay,

33:03

it's time to go beyond just

33:03

trying to help ourselves and get

33:06

some professional help? Okay, if

33:06

a money conflict keeps coming up

33:11

over and over again, without

33:11

resolution,

33:14

that's a good sign. Okay. And

33:14

then you

33:19

offer services that are called

33:22

therapy informed financial

33:22

planning, is that correct?

33:26

That's great. That's right. So

33:26

are you kind of why don't you

33:31

explain what it is? I'm not

33:31

gonna guess I'll let you explain

33:34

that. Yeah, well, it's a really

33:34

exciting time. And for me, and

33:39

it may be somewhat confusing for

33:39

consumers. So

33:43

there'll be informed financial

33:43

planning is about bringing that

33:47

deep knowledge of how people

33:47

learn healing grow into the

33:52

process of financial planning,

33:52

and we're specifically looking

33:55

at what's happening for you as

33:55

we go through the financial

33:59

planning process. Now, what I

33:59

know after having worked for

34:03

eight years as a couples

34:03

therapist, is that many clients

34:06

need an environment where they

34:06

can work with a therapist week

34:09

in week out, sometimes for

34:09

months, if not years, depending

34:12

on other the degree of their

34:12

attachment style and how

34:16

problematic it is how many

34:16

different childhood trauma

34:19

issues they may have. Sometimes

34:19

you need to be on a much deeper

34:24

healing journey. That's not

34:24

something that I can support in

34:27

therapy, informed financial planning. But I will I can I know about

34:30

the healing journey and what

34:34

people are going through there

34:34

and I can use resources from

34:37

that to help bridge into the

34:37

work that you need to do with

34:40

your financial life. Okay. So let's imagine a couple who is

34:44

newly engaged and maybe haven't

34:53

encountered a lot of financial

34:53

difficulties right now.

34:58

Where would you start them on a journey, yeah, I would go

35:00

back to kind of like, let's just

35:04

talk about our money history and

35:04

our experiences with money,

35:07

right, like getting to know each

35:07

other. They're much like we, you

35:11

know, in that early intimacy

35:11

phase, we're getting to know

35:13

each other's favorite foods and

35:13

trips we've been on. It's just,

35:18

you know, it doesn't have to be

35:18

a super formal process, it can

35:21

just be folding in questions

35:21

about, you know, what's your

35:25

favorite memory of the first

35:25

thing that you bought? You know,

35:27

kind of like your for you the

35:27

boombox right, like, Oh, that's

35:30

really cool. You know, what do

35:30

you dream about financially?

35:34

What do you hope to have money

35:34

to be able to do in the future?

35:39

Those types of questions, I

35:39

think, are very powerful for

35:43

building together. And just

35:43

making sure I guess, when you're

35:46

having those kinds of

35:46

conversations that you are

35:48

specifically referencing, or

35:48

asking questions around money.

35:55

Yeah, experiences around money.

35:55

Yes. And I think another side

36:00

is, I was gonna say, for those

36:00

that are making sure that

36:04

they're starting to talk about

36:04

expectations around work and

36:06

child rearing. Because those are really big

36:08

deals.

36:12

And so you want to be as clear

36:12

as you can, I mean, people are

36:15

apt to change as they go through

36:15

life and the stages of their

36:18

relationship. But those are

36:18

important precursor questions as

36:22

you're getting to know each

36:22

other financially. What are your

36:25

expectations for your career

36:25

path? And what do you think that

36:27

will mean? For us? We want to

36:27

make sure they're having

36:31

conversations, but natural

36:31

conversations, not not

36:36

inquiries or not. Yeah, that's

36:36

it. That's the spirit you're

36:41

coming from then that that's a

36:41

sign that there's something is

36:44

already going on. So it should

36:44

be just relaxed, fun, playful,

36:49

curious. explorative. You know,

36:49

ask about you. Okay, can we look

36:54

at each other's credit score? Can we look at each other's

36:57

different? 401k case?

37:01

Right, so we're getting

37:01

financially naked with each

37:03

other. Right? And there's also

37:03

experiences in previous

37:09

relationships around money. And is that I can imagine will

37:12

have a big impact on how you

37:15

want to handle money. Maybe not

37:15

as big I don't know, as your

37:19

family of origin experiences,

37:19

but certainly, if you've had

37:23

experiences with a partner, who

37:23

was, you know, financially

37:27

abusive in some way, or

37:31

financially, spendthrift or

37:31

inattentive or trolling? Yeah,

37:36

any other great, all of your

37:36

history matters.

37:41

And we want to just be able to

37:41

be openly reflecting and sharing

37:45

about how different things have

37:45

shaped our expectations. And

37:48

ideally, we want to become

37:48

reflective and be able to

37:51

differentiate, did what happened

37:51

in the past?

37:56

mean that I need to stay

37:56

controlling now about money? Or

37:59

can I relax around that because

37:59

it's safe now?

38:03

Right. So we're, as we're moving

38:03

along, we, the ways that we

38:08

learn to relate to money in the

38:08

past may not be relevant for our

38:10

current status. Right.

38:14

Okay, so we've got them having

38:14

these conversations. Yeah.

38:19

I'm gonna guess you want them to

38:19

take an attachment style quiz,

38:23

and understand what their

38:23

attachment style is? Well, yeah,

38:27

that would be nice. I mean, I

38:27

think, look, if I understood

38:31

attachment styles, when my wife

38:31

and I first got married, it

38:34

would have saved hours of grief,

38:34

and misunderstanding. Why is it?

38:42

Well, one, because I would have

38:42

understood my own self, myself

38:45

better, and I would have felt

38:45

less.

38:49

How do I say this? Well, it's not been fun learning

38:52

about my own anxious attachment

38:55

style. And that's a reality of

38:55

my past and my child rearing. I

38:59

think it's helped me understand

38:59

why I felt so

39:04

anxious about her not calling me

39:04

back early in our dating

39:07

relationship, or why I would be so sometimes

39:09

anxiously attached get accused

39:13

of being so sensitive to

39:13

sensitive. Okay, well, right,

39:16

we're heightened, we have a

39:16

heightened sensitivity to being

39:19

rejected. So maybe you're saying

39:19

something playful to your

39:23

partner, and trying to tease

39:23

them, but you take it as like,

39:26

oh, they don't love me. They

39:26

don't care about me, which is

39:29

not the truth. Okay. Is there an

39:29

example of how your anxious

39:36

attachment style played out and

39:36

money? And I only ask you this

39:39

because like I said, You're so

39:39

transparent. In your book, I

39:44

can. Oh, it puts you on the spot

39:44

otherwise? No. I mean, look,

39:48

yeah. As as much as respectful

39:48

of my family. I'm an open book,

39:52

right, like, yes. So yes, I

39:52

think one of the biggest

39:58

and it's still an ongoing issue. shoe, it's not just my

40:00

attachment. So I think there's

40:02

other ways of looking at

40:02

understanding it. But the

40:06

reality is my wife is a dentist.

40:06

And from the time that we met, I

40:10

knew that she was gonna make

40:10

more money than me. And

40:13

that's been a blessing in many

40:13

ways. But at a deeper

40:17

psychological level, I think,

40:17

with an insecure attachment

40:21

style, it's left me continually,

40:21

you know, we talked about if you

40:24

have an anxious attachment

40:24

style, you negative, evaluate

40:26

positive, evaluate the other. So

40:26

I've held my wife on a pedestal,

40:32

and that she's so much better

40:32

her money makes is more

40:34

important. And what I make

40:34

doesn't matter. So I fell into

40:37

this trap of what I made doesn't

40:37

matter, which meant like, I've

40:41

kind of neglected some of my own

40:41

responsibilities to the family.

40:45

And so it's being able to be partnered with

40:48

someone who makes more money

40:53

than you and feel confident in

40:53

that. And then we have that

40:56

gender role. And I say,

40:56

particularly as a straight man,

40:59

especially as a straight male

40:59

who has internalized no choice

41:02

of my own all the

41:02

heteronormative white male

41:06

expectations, right? You're

41:06

supposed to be the breadwinner,

41:08

you're supposed to be the

41:08

provider. And so

41:13

I think there's a compounding

41:13

effect with my anxious

41:17

attachment that makes it harder

41:17

to navigate the reality because

41:20

my value system says, I think

41:20

women should make as much money

41:24

as men, if not more, I have no

41:24

problem from a values level. But

41:29

there's deeper parts of my

41:29

brain. Say, you got a problem

41:33

with this. Feel great, right?

41:33

And so it's, it's not fun for my

41:38

wife to have to navigate these

41:38

conversations with me, because

41:42

she's just living the life that

41:42

she's grown into and expected of

41:46

her. And so it's like, well, what do you want me to

41:49

feel bad about this? No, I

41:53

definitely do not. But like

41:53

this. So it's an ongoing dance

41:58

and growing and maturing. It's,

41:58

it's less consuming for me now,

42:02

but it's still prevalent in my

42:02

mind. I'm glad you shared that.

42:05

Because there are a number of

42:05

men in your position. who

42:10

struggle with that, because

42:10

there are things that have been

42:13

internalized, right. But

42:13

outwardly, they don't want to

42:16

say that it bothers them, or

42:16

they don't want to do their

42:21

wives, you know, in a straight

42:21

couple. They don't want to tell

42:24

their wife shine. Right. Right.

42:24

So you know, who wrote about

42:28

this and someone you're familiar

42:28

with is Farnoosh, Torabi. Oh,

42:32

fact. That's when I first

42:32

learned about you was on her

42:35

podcast. And yeah, that's a

42:35

little while back, but that's

42:39

when I first discovered you.

42:39

Yeah, she has a book entitled

42:44

when she makes more dressing

42:44

there. So if anybody is

42:48

interested in delving into that

42:48

a little more Farnoosh has a

42:51

great book about it. Yeah, I

42:51

think that you that's a really

42:54

big topic. And it's really

42:54

important. And I'm happy to talk

42:58

about it. Because there are a

42:58

lot of men and women suffering

43:02

silently, not knowing how how to

43:02

navigate this. And this is part

43:07

of one of many reasons why I've

43:07

ended up in this therapeutic

43:10

journey. I've been seeking

43:10

psychological relief, right?

43:14

Because there's, and this is a

43:14

way simplified answer. But

43:19

there's two groups of men,

43:19

right? It's more way more

43:23

complicated this, but simply

43:23

there are men who value women

43:27

and say, I want them to be

43:27

successful, and be as successful

43:31

as men are more. And I feel insecure about it.

43:33

All right. I hope that that's

43:37

the lion's share of men out

43:37

there. Now, I don't know the

43:40

full stats, but I'm not naive is

43:40

to realize there's a number of

43:43

men out there that don't hold

43:43

that value, and also are

43:47

insecure about it. But for those

43:47

guys out there that say, yes, my

43:52

value system includes holding

43:52

women up to the highest esteem

43:56

and standard and ability, gender

43:56

equality. And yet I also

44:01

struggle with my own insecurity,

44:01

you're not alone.

44:04

And and this is a journey of

44:04

part of our what I think is our

44:08

cultural evolution, and in

44:08

overall the right direction. But

44:13

there's, you know, we talk a lot

44:13

in society now about how to have

44:18

more effective conversations about racial differences and racial

44:21

experiences. And what does that

44:23

mean? How do we do that? Well, we still have a long ways to go

44:26

there. And we're way to go on

44:29

gender dynamics at the social

44:29

level, and then in the intimate

44:33

relationship as well.

44:33

Definitely. Well, you talking

44:37

about that. It just is a perfect

44:37

kind of full circle moment to

44:41

what I said earlier about your

44:41

willingness to be vulnerable,

44:45

and how that is an important to

44:45

model particularly in that

44:50

situation for straight men, to own those feelings and to

44:53

normalize those contradictions

44:59

that we can be You know, have a certain value

45:00

and feel supportive, and yet

45:03

have it bother us. So, again, I

45:03

appreciate you coming clean with

45:08

that. Yeah, yeah, you know, I

45:08

think I appreciate that. And

45:12

just seeing your face light up

45:12

as I, as you that validation, I

45:16

appreciate that. And I think

45:16

part of the journey of learning

45:19

and healing is being able to

45:19

tolerate contradictions within

45:23

oneself and contradictions

45:23

within others, because the

45:26

reality is, it's humans, most of

45:26

us have some degree of internal

45:29

conflict and contradiction. Yes.

45:29

It's like, and I think that's,

45:34

as far as I can tell, that's

45:34

part of the human condition. So

45:39

well, on the flip side of that,

45:39

I know there are a lot of

45:43

straight women who

45:46

feel uncomfortable with men that

45:46

make less and their value might

45:53

be, it's fine for me to make

45:53

more as fine for a woman to make

45:57

more I should make as much as I

45:57

can. But there's that little

46:00

thing of, I'm supposed to be

46:00

taken care of by the guy like,

46:04

right, right. You've

46:04

internalized gendered norms just

46:07

as much as the men have. Yes,

46:07

yes. I wanted to make sure to

46:10

point that out. Because it's not

46:10

only men, straight men that

46:13

struggle with with those gender

46:13

norms. That's maybe where

46:19

we have the mirror, you know,

46:19

side of that, where we say

46:24

we're, you know, many of us say,

46:24

we're okay, with making more, we

46:28

will be okay with a husband who

46:28

stayed home. And yet, there's

46:32

maybe that underlying feeling

46:32

of, you know, Is that really

46:37

okay for me? Yeah, yeah, I think, yes, I

46:39

appreciate you naming that

46:44

raises that. I think this whole gender

46:47

dynamics, money, household

46:50

responsibility becomes really

46:50

magnified here. Because

46:55

for families where the wife is

46:55

now, the breadwinner,

46:59

what often hasn't also caught up

46:59

is they're also still the

47:02

primary responsibility for the

47:02

household management tasks and

47:05

kids. Oh, yes. Well, that's a

47:05

whole other subject that rest

47:09

assured I'm gonna cover on this

47:09

because those, they're

47:13

intersecting so powerfully,

47:13

right? Yes, absolutely. Well,

47:18

okay. And in wrapping up today,

47:18

I want to make sure we give the

47:21

listeners their, again, their

47:21

marching orders, we're going to

47:24

have them have these

47:24

conversations, we're going to

47:28

have them or ask them to maybe

47:28

take your attachment style quiz

47:33

you have on on your website, and

47:33

I'll definitely include that in

47:36

the show notes. And then, you know, maybe

47:38

through those conversations, and

47:43

through the attachment style,

47:43

you know, learning their

47:45

attachment style. Maybe we

47:45

challenged them to try to make a

47:49

connection to some current

47:49

thought or feeling current

47:53

action, even some current

47:53

financial habit that maybe they

47:58

can see they can start to make

47:58

the connections between their

48:01

money history, their attachment

48:01

style, and some of the financial

48:06

behaviors or thoughts they have

48:06

currently in their relationship.

48:11

Yeah, I think you're in a very

48:11

practical sense. One of the

48:13

exercises I love doing with

48:13

couples, is getting them to make

48:17

eye contact with each other and get into a state of loving

48:19

gaze. And then talking about

48:24

money. Oh, okay. So we might

48:24

call it financial foreplay. Oh,

48:29

wow. Okay. Like when I can see

48:29

you, and you can see me in the

48:35

eyes, and we see that we're safe

48:35

to each other. It changes the

48:39

state of mind of approaching

48:39

finances together. Right. And so

48:42

that's that starting point is

48:42

like, do we have relational

48:46

connection before we go into the

48:46

money conversation? Yes. Are we

48:51

connected to each other? Because

48:51

if we're not connected to each

48:53

other, getting connected to each

48:53

other, as we get in the money,

48:56

conversation is gonna get hard.

48:56

Okay, so we're gonna get

48:59

connected first, and then we're

48:59

gonna have that conversation.

49:03

Ding, ding, ding, ding. Great.

49:03

Okay. Well, that's a good note

49:06

to end on. We have left them

49:06

with some suggestions. And I

49:12

don't want to tell you, I

49:12

appreciate you coming on and

49:15

sharing these things. These

49:15

topics. I think, again, it's

49:17

important to emphasize that

49:17

money is not just about the

49:22

dollars and cents. There's a lot

49:22

of emotion behind it. And when

49:26

we tap into that, and learn

49:26

about it, I think we will be

49:30

more effective as couples

49:30

working together. Yeah. Yes.

49:35

Great. Thanks a lot. Appreciate

49:35

your time.

49:49

To learn more about its work and

49:49

take his free attachment style

49:53

quiz. Visit Healthy Love and

49:53

money.com. On the site, you'll

49:58

also find a link to his book The Healthy Love and money way,

50:00

how the four attachment styles

50:04

impact your financial well being. You can also follow it on

50:06

Instagram at healthy love and

50:10

money, where he demonstrates how

50:10

well he can simultaneously walk,

50:14

talk and record videos,

50:14

something I have yet to master.

50:19

And if you and your partner want

50:19

a follow up process to start

50:22

transforming your relationship

50:22

with each other and with your

50:25

finances, it is offering our

50:25

listeners 10% off his online

50:30

course, the couples guide to

50:30

financial intimacy using the

50:34

promo practically Mary will have

50:34

all this info in the show notes.

50:50

Thanks for joining us this week.

50:50

If you like what you hear,

50:54

subscribe to practically married

50:54

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50:58

You can also follow the show on

50:58

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51:02

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51:25

That's all for now. Have a good

51:25

one.