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coverage match limited by state law.

0:24

Not available in all states. Can

0:26

President Bukali weigh in on this?

0:29

Do you plan to return him? Well, I

0:31

can't. I suppose you're not suggesting that

0:33

I smuggle a terrorist in the United

0:35

States. How can I smuggle him today?

0:37

It's like I smuggle him into the

0:39

United States or whether I'm not going

0:41

to do it. Of course, I'm not

0:43

going to do it. It's like, I

0:45

mean, the question is for postures. How

0:48

can I smuggle a terrorist in the

0:50

United States? I don't have the power

0:52

to return him to the United States.

0:54

El Salvador's president, Naib Bukalay, at

0:56

the White House today taking questions

0:58

from reporters with President Trump at

1:00

his side. He was talking about

1:02

Kilmar Abrego Garcia. The Trump administration

1:04

has admitted that it had made

1:06

a mistake when it arrested and

1:09

deported Abrego Garcia to a notorious

1:11

prison in El Salvador. He has

1:13

never been officially accused of terrorism

1:15

or any crime. In fact, he

1:17

was here in the United States

1:19

legally and is married to an

1:21

American citizen. Last week, the Supreme

1:24

Court ruled unanimously that the government

1:26

needs to facilitate his return to

1:28

the US. So now what? Is

1:30

this the first case in which

1:32

the Trump administration is defying the

1:34

nation's highest court? Our legal legal,

1:36

Jessica Levinson, is here. She's a

1:39

professor at Loyla Law School and

1:41

joins us most Mondays. Hi. Hi,

1:43

good to be here. Well, that

1:45

was quite a fiery Oval Office

1:47

Q&A session. And what we got

1:49

from it was that neither the

1:51

Trump administration nor the president of

1:54

El Salvador seems willing to release

1:56

this man, whom the administration

1:58

has said was a... arrested

2:00

and deported due to an

2:02

administrative error. And the Supreme

2:05

Court last week found 9-0

2:07

that the administration needs to

2:09

make an effort to facilitate

2:11

his return. So now what?

2:13

That's a great question, and I

2:15

don't mean that facetiously, but now

2:17

what? So we have a district

2:19

court judge who is overseeing this

2:21

case, who said, United States government,

2:23

you need to facilitate and effectuate

2:25

his return to the United States.

2:27

This case then goes all the

2:29

way up to the Supreme Court

2:31

on what is now kind of

2:34

a common mechanism, which is an

2:36

emergency appeal. And the Supreme Court

2:38

says, as he said, unanimously. We

2:40

agree with the district court here,

2:42

and we agree that the federal

2:44

government has to facilitate Mr. Abrego

2:46

Garcia's return to the United States.

2:48

There was some question about what

2:50

the word effectuate meant, and they

2:52

said we need clarification on that.

2:54

The district court judge said, okay,

2:57

federal government, I need an update

2:59

from you. The federal government didn't

3:01

provide the update, but I think

3:03

we just got one, Madeline, as

3:05

of a few moments ago, with

3:07

respect to... President Trump and the

3:10

President of El Salvador saying we

3:12

essentially have no plans to comply

3:14

with this federal order. My strong

3:16

suspicion is that there will be

3:19

a very quick appeal by Mr.

3:21

Obrego Garcia's family to the district

3:23

court and then maybe back up

3:25

against the Supreme Court. Okay,

3:28

but they've already said that the

3:30

Trump administration needs to facilitate his

3:32

return. So what more could the

3:35

Supreme Court say? This was a

3:37

pretty, this is unanimous, nine to

3:39

zero. Right. I mean, what they could, I should,

3:41

I should pause for a moment, we should

3:43

all pause for a moment, that we're

3:46

not typically in this situation. So the

3:48

law is largely guided by, you know,

3:50

what does the law say, what has

3:52

happened in the past? I would offer

3:54

we haven't really then. Here before so

3:56

what could the Supreme Court say the

3:58

Supreme Court could say? Look at what

4:01

we said before. We really meant

4:03

it. They could use stronger language.

4:05

They could potentially raise the possibility

4:07

of sanctions, which I don't think,

4:09

frankly, is what is motivating

4:11

the federal government. But at the

4:14

end of the day, we have

4:16

our fundamental question that I think

4:18

we've been asking ourselves for a

4:21

number of different cases, which is.

4:23

What power do federal judges have

4:25

if political actors, meaning members of

4:27

the executive branch or the legislative

4:30

branch, just say, no, thank

4:32

you? Yeah. Well, that in

4:34

fact was what was talked

4:36

about a lot today in

4:39

the Oval Office. You have

4:41

President Trump's advisor Stephen Miller

4:43

saying, look, the federal courts

4:45

have no jurisdiction over the

4:47

president's foreign policy. And so

4:50

what jurisdiction do they have,

4:52

in fact, over whether or

4:54

not they can order the

4:56

president to bring back someone

4:58

who is not a citizen

5:00

to the United States and who

5:03

is now in another country.

5:05

Right. Well, I will say that

5:07

we are seeing largely this argument

5:09

between the executive branch saying

5:12

this is our purview, this

5:14

is our lane, and of

5:16

course we hear Stephen Miller

5:18

using words like national security,

5:20

immigration policy, foreign policy. These

5:22

are all areas where the

5:24

judicial branch has deferred, I

5:27

would say not completely said

5:29

abdicated and said this isn't

5:31

where we belong, but largely

5:33

deferred to the executive branch.

5:35

What we now have with

5:37

President Trump and members of

5:39

his administration is a much broader

5:41

embrace of the idea that there should

5:43

just be no judicial review in some

5:46

situations at. all. So at this point,

5:48

what I would say is we have

5:50

the Supreme Court. In addition to a

5:52

district court judge saying, we believe we

5:54

have the power. We believe we have

5:57

the power to say that Mr. Obrega

5:59

Garcia should be returned. And

6:01

at this point we don't

6:03

see compliance with that order.

6:05

Okay, I would love to know what

6:08

John Roberts, the Chief Justice,

6:10

is thinking right now. We might

6:12

find out very soon. Okay. Well,

6:15

let's turn to another high-profile immigration

6:17

case, and this is the one

6:19

regarding Mahmoud Khalil, the Palestinian student

6:22

activist from Columbia University, a legal

6:24

permanent resident who was detained by

6:26

federal agents last month, and an

6:29

immigration judge ruled on Friday that

6:31

he can be deported because of

6:33

an old law that the Secretary

6:36

of State cited, the Immigration Nationality

6:38

Act of 1952. How is that

6:40

law applicable here? So that law is

6:43

a pretty broad grant of authority

6:45

to the Secretary of State and

6:47

it allows a Secretary of State

6:50

to make a determination that there

6:52

is a likely adverse consequence when

6:54

it comes to foreign policy of

6:57

allowing somebody to stay in the

6:59

country, which is another way of

7:01

saying the Secretary of State gets

7:04

to look at a situation, make

7:06

a determination, say that there's essentially

7:08

probable cause, that there are potentially

7:11

adverse... foreign policy consequences, and so

7:13

this person can be deported. I do

7:15

want to say what I heard the

7:17

immigration judge say is a version of

7:20

this is up to the Secretary of

7:22

State. This is not up to me.

7:24

I can't jump in and make this

7:26

determination. So it's the same theme we've

7:29

been talking about, which is when do

7:31

judges have power and when do they

7:33

have to defer to the executive branch?

7:35

Right. But there are two different courts

7:38

here, right? There's the immigration court and

7:40

then there's the federal courts who would

7:42

take up a First Amendment challenge,

7:44

which is what Killeel's lawyers are

7:46

arguing, right? That this is a violation

7:48

of his First Amendment rights? That's

7:50

exactly right. So this is a

7:52

slightly separate question in the federal

7:54

district court. Not the immigration court,

7:56

but the federal district court. The

7:58

question is not... you know, is

8:00

there the statute that provides the

8:03

Secretary of State with broad authority?

8:05

The question is really, what if

8:07

you use that authority and allegedly

8:09

do so based on the viewpoint

8:11

or content of somebody's speech? Because

8:13

what we know is you might...

8:15

have the power to do something,

8:18

but you can't do it in

8:20

a way that violates the First

8:22

Amendment. And what Mr. Cleel is

8:24

arguing is that, in part that

8:26

he's being targeted impermissibly in a

8:28

way that violates his speech rights.

8:30

And in addition to that, his

8:32

due process rights. So that's somewhat

8:34

separate from let's just look at

8:37

the language of the statute. Let's

8:39

look at the language of the

8:41

Constitution. Can you say you're using

8:43

the statute in this situation based

8:45

on these facts? Jessica Livingston

8:47

is our legal legal here

8:49

on press play and a

8:51

professor at Loyla Law School.

8:54

Jessica, thank you. Thank you.

8:56

We'll talk to an LAUSD

8:58

board member about what happened

9:00

when federal immigration officers showed

9:02

up at two elementary

9:04

schools looking for students.

9:06

And later on, writer

9:08

Anne Applebaum on the

9:10

links between the authoritarian

9:12

government in Hungary. and

9:14

the Trump administration. Those

9:16

stories coming up next on press

9:18

play. This

9:27

is press play on 89.9 KCRW,

9:30

I'm metal and brand. Last

9:32

week immigration agents showed up

9:34

at two elementary schools in

9:36

South LA looking for five

9:38

students they said were undocumented.

9:40

Officials at both Russell and

9:42

Lillian Street Elementary's denied the

9:44

agent's entry. The agents claimed

9:46

they had permission from the

9:48

kids' families to speak to

9:50

the students, but Superintendent Alberto

9:52

Carvalo told the LA Times

9:54

that was not true. A

9:56

spokesperson for the Department of

9:58

Homeland Security later claimed the agents

10:00

were there to merely conduct so-called

10:02

wellness checks on these students. Tanya

10:04

Ortiz Franklin is the LAUSD board

10:06

member representing the area that includes

10:09

Russell Elementary. Welcome to Press Play.

10:11

Thanks so much for having me.

10:13

What was your reaction when these

10:15

ICE agents showed up at these

10:17

schools, one of which is in

10:19

your district? What did you think

10:21

immediately? Immediately, I was upset,

10:23

as most people are, when anything

10:25

scary happens around campus, which is

10:27

exactly what this is. It's fearful,

10:29

it's intimidation, and I was worried

10:31

on behalf of my community, my

10:33

kids and families, and angry, honestly,

10:36

that they would try to come

10:38

to a school campus. And there's

10:40

a protocol, right, that the district

10:42

has when this happens, what is

10:44

it? Absolutely, which this has not

10:46

happened before. So for the first

10:48

time our principals implemented it and

10:50

it requires, you know, asking who

10:52

they are and for some validation

10:54

of that, anybody who comes to

10:56

campus asking to see our kids,

10:58

we ask for an ID and

11:00

we understand there was some reluctance

11:02

there. We tried to write down

11:04

the numbers just like you would

11:06

if an officer stopped you. We

11:08

have the principals check in with

11:10

operations and legal to make sure

11:12

everyone is aware of what is

11:14

happening. and just like if you

11:16

know immigration enforcement were coming to

11:18

your home we would ask for

11:20

a warrant and the principals asked

11:22

for proper documentation and the

11:24

officers claimed they didn't need

11:27

that and they had nothing

11:29

to produce so they were turned

11:31

away. Apparently they did not tell

11:33

the truth when they said they

11:35

had permission to speak to the

11:38

students from their guardians and

11:40

now DHS says that these were

11:42

wellness checks. Can you explain what's

11:44

happening there? You know, I really

11:47

wish I could. I think I

11:49

want to assume the best of

11:51

intentions, but it's really hard to

11:53

do that today when so much

11:55

of this activity is really just

11:57

inducing fear and control in our

11:59

neighborhood. You know, typically if a social

12:01

worker does a wellness check, it's to

12:03

check on the health of a student

12:05

and they would show us their identification

12:07

and their documentation that gives them permission

12:09

to do so. But that is not

12:11

what happened in this case. And so

12:13

we're really not sure what exactly they

12:15

were trying to do. Right. They said

12:17

they just wanted to talk to the

12:19

students, right, initially. And that's so

12:22

inappropriate. Just don't come onto a

12:24

school campus and talk to kids.

12:26

You just can't do that without

12:28

any sort of proof of who

12:31

you are and what you're doing.

12:33

Yeah. How has this affected the

12:35

community and the school in particular?

12:37

Yeah, you know, Florence Firestone is predominantly

12:40

Latino and there was already concerns

12:42

of activity in the neighborhood. People

12:44

had been reporting on social media

12:46

and even calling our schools and

12:48

we have a hotline, you know,

12:50

letting us know we're seeing activity

12:52

of sometimes it's uniform, sometimes not

12:54

uniform, sometimes it's a marked car,

12:56

sometimes not marked, and it's only

12:58

contribute to that fear and confusion.

13:00

In general, students who may have

13:02

an undocumented parent or two, Are they worried

13:05

and bringing those worries to school

13:07

that their mom or dad might

13:09

be deported? Yes and no. Some

13:12

know that their family members are

13:14

undocumented, others don't, but almost everyone

13:16

knows somebody who is undocumented. And

13:18

so I think there is a

13:20

general sense of fear in the

13:22

neighborhood that didn't exist before this

13:24

administration. And fortunately we are not

13:26

seeing huge swings in attendance. There's

13:28

so many issues that our kids

13:30

and families are dealing with, particularly

13:33

those living in poverty, that we

13:35

have a lot of social emotional

13:37

support on campus. There's direct instruction

13:39

in the classroom. social workers, there's

13:41

therapy, so we're really trying to make

13:43

sure that if a kid expresses any

13:45

sort of concern that we get them

13:48

the help that he need. How many kids

13:50

are undocumented in LASD or

13:52

have an undocumented caregiver? This

13:54

is a great question and

13:56

we don't know because we don't

13:58

collect that information. but probably estimate

14:00

based on you know severe or county

14:03

numbers, but we don't collect that information

14:05

and families know they don't have to

14:07

share that with us. So. Moving forward,

14:10

is the district going to change its

14:12

plans and how it handles the federal

14:14

government's accelerated deportation efforts? I definitely think

14:17

more people are on alert. We didn't

14:19

know how quickly this would happen on

14:21

campuses once the sensitive areas was lifted

14:24

from schools and churches a few weeks

14:26

back. So now that has happened, I

14:28

think there's more worry and one more

14:31

thing for school leaders to have to

14:33

do. But the protocols worked. The principals

14:35

did exactly what they were supposed to

14:37

do. No one got to our kids.

14:39

And that's really the message you want

14:41

to send to families in our community

14:43

is that school will continue to be

14:45

the safest place for your kids. And

14:47

to and from school, we all need

14:50

to be vigilant. And so we have

14:52

safe passage partners, you know, law enforcement

14:54

agencies and the city and county are

14:56

also not cooperating with immigration enforcement, which

14:58

we're grateful for our own school police

15:00

does not cooperate. And so we just

15:02

need to make sure that folks know

15:05

that a school police car is not

15:07

the same as an ice truck. I

15:09

think we will continue to do what

15:11

we've done, but absolutely a greater sense

15:14

of vigilance, given that this has actually

15:16

happened now. How big a worry is

15:18

it that the federal government might withhold

15:21

funding from LA USDA based

15:23

on its unwillingness to cooperate

15:26

with immigration officials? I'll speak

15:28

personally for my part, you know, there's

15:30

so many things I didn't think would

15:33

be possible and this administration has shown

15:35

us unfortunately are possible. Even withdrawing funding

15:37

from higher ed is maybe a first

15:40

sign and, you know, declaring that the

15:42

Department of Education should be completely dismantled

15:44

and now having some legislative action moving

15:47

forward on that, you know, these are

15:49

not things that I ever would have

15:51

thought would have happened in my lifetime.

15:54

I thought there were some... bipartisan foundations

15:56

of this country and public education being

15:58

one of them. So it's. It's frustrating,

16:00

it's confusing, unfortunately it's getting less

16:03

and less surprising that threats are

16:05

being made, particularly to low-income communities

16:08

that are just very different from

16:10

those in power right now. So

16:12

as I understand it, LUSD gets

16:15

around 10% of its funding from

16:17

federal sources, would you be willing

16:19

to risk that in order to

16:22

stand firm against immigration agents

16:24

coming into schools? You know, I

16:26

think this is where we really have

16:28

to lean on Congress. They have the

16:30

power of the purse. And so Title

16:32

I for our low-income kids, Title III

16:35

for our English learners, IDEA, special education,

16:37

like these are commitments of our legislators,

16:39

not just of the administration. And so

16:41

we have to get our largely democratic

16:44

legislators to reach across the aisle and

16:46

remind that this is what our country

16:48

stands for. You know, we're not yet

16:50

in that position. I hope that we

16:52

never will be, because 10 percent is

16:55

still sizableible. with declining enrollment and

16:57

a structural deficit and we

16:59

already have to make hard

17:01

choices. We've already expended all

17:03

of our, you know, COVID

17:05

dollars and next year's budget

17:07

and the following years, you

17:09

know, continue to look worse

17:11

and worse in terms of

17:13

overall numbers. So I can't

17:15

say that we'd be prepared

17:17

to lose another 10% but

17:19

we all need to, you

17:21

know, lean on our congressmen

17:23

to stand firm and in

17:25

their power and hold on

17:27

to that. Thank you.

17:29

Coming up lessons

17:31

from Hungary historian Anne Applebaum

17:33

on how the Trump administration

17:35

is taking cues from Hungary's

17:37

leader Victor Orban and what

17:40

the political opposition should do.

17:42

The key will be finding

17:44

a way to make people

17:46

draw a connection between their

17:48

own personal experiences and their

17:50

own lives and what's happening

17:52

far away in Washington. That

17:54

story plus Jeff Bridges later

17:56

on he talks about making

17:58

music and surviving cancer. Those

18:00

stories are next on Press Play.

18:02

This episode is brought to you

18:05

by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever

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Company and Affiliates. This

18:32

is press play on 89.9

18:35

KCRW. I'm Madeline Brand last

18:37

year at a gathering of

18:40

the Conservative political action conference

18:42

far right rabble rouser and

18:45

moderator of the war room

18:47

podcast Steve Bannon he'd praise

18:49

on CPAC's host Once again,

18:52

just an incredible hero. You

18:54

guys are an inspiration

18:56

to the world and war room

18:58

will always and everywhere have

19:00

your back He was talking

19:03

about Victor Orban, Hungary's prime

19:05

minister for 15 years now,

19:07

and a champion of what

19:10

he calls illiberal democracy, which

19:12

he touted at a state-side

19:14

CPAC in Dallas, Texas,

19:16

back in 2022. My

19:18

government is devoted to law

19:20

and order without compromise. We

19:23

decided we don't need more

19:25

genders. We need more rangers.

19:28

Let's drag queens and

19:31

more chalk noris. Orban's

19:33

hungry, one of the poorest

19:35

countries in Europe with high

19:37

unemployment, muzzled press, and rampant...

19:39

government corruption could be, could

19:41

be America's future. And Applebaum

19:43

makes that case in the

19:45

May issue of the Atlantic.

19:47

She's a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian

19:49

and co-host of the magazine's

19:51

podcast Autocracy in America, which

19:53

explores how the types of

19:55

authoritarian tactics we see in

19:57

Orbanes-Hungary are already happening in

19:59

the country, if you know where to

20:02

look, welcome back to press play, Anne. Well,

20:04

thanks for having me. Great to

20:06

have you back. Well, Hungary did

20:08

not used to be like that.

20:10

It was once a wealthy country,

20:12

foreign investors seem to love pouring

20:14

money into it. Pain a picture for

20:17

us of what Hungary looks like now.

20:19

Hungary has been, as your as

20:21

your introduction said, has been given

20:23

a lot of attention for its

20:25

immigration policy, although it actually has

20:27

very few immigrants. There's a lot

20:29

of anti-immigrant rhetoric that they use.

20:31

It's had a lot of attention

20:34

for the state in effect taking

20:36

control over universities for also what

20:38

you can call state capture, so

20:40

the state takes over all kinds

20:42

of institutions, takes over the civil

20:44

service, takes over the courts. This

20:46

is one of a lot of

20:48

admiration among a part of the

20:50

American right. What's much more rarely

20:52

talked about is what during the

20:54

period when Victor Orban, who you

20:57

introduced, the current Prime Minister, has

20:59

been in charge and during which

21:01

he's eliminated these institutions, during which

21:03

he's made it very difficult for

21:05

him to be voted out because

21:07

of changes he's made to the

21:09

Constitution and the electoral law. What

21:11

happened to the country? And the

21:13

answer is, as you said, Hungary

21:15

was once the kind of the

21:17

star of the ex-communist world. It

21:19

was the country a lot of

21:21

foreign investors rushed to in the

21:24

1990s. It was ahead of the

21:26

game and privatization and in other

21:28

things. And since then, under Orban,

21:30

it has become very stagnant,

21:32

very slow growing and very

21:34

corrupt. So it's... corruption, but it's

21:37

also other things. You also

21:39

alluded to fewer immigrants. They

21:41

have very tough immigration laws

21:44

or prohibitions against immigrants and

21:46

also a declining birth rate

21:48

amongst native Hungarians. Is that

21:50

all contributing to the faltering

21:52

economy? Yeah, I mean, the

21:54

immigrant thing is a sort

21:56

of strange story because they

21:58

didn't actually have many immigrants. It

22:01

walls into country that was a

22:03

big magnet for immigration. Orban used

22:05

anti-immigrant rhetoric as a way of

22:07

making an argument about a Hungarian

22:09

identity. I mean, it's something I

22:11

probably don't have to explain to

22:13

Americans because they've heard it very

22:15

similar tactics used here. I mean,

22:17

we at least have immigration. We

22:19

have a, there is a genuine,

22:21

you know, you could argue there's

22:23

a genuine problem on our border.

22:25

There's a real immigration is a

22:27

genuine issue involving real people in

22:29

Hungary. It was always fictitious. And again,

22:31

all of that is, you know, you

22:33

know, when you, when you create a

22:35

one-party state, you know, dominate the political

22:38

conversation with one side, only one argument

22:40

is ever allowed to be right, when

22:42

you fill people's heads with the idea

22:44

that strange foreign, different, other challenging ideas

22:46

are bad, then you create an atmosphere

22:48

of kind of mental and intellectual stagnation

22:50

on top of the economic stagnation, and

22:52

there are a lot of young people

22:55

who don't like it. I mean, younger

22:57

Hungarians all over the place, and actually

22:59

a lot of Hungarians I know have left. And

23:01

when I wrote that article, I

23:03

also heard from a lot of

23:05

Hungarians who said, yes, this reflects

23:07

exactly my experience. Interesting. And of

23:09

course, it's a real warning to

23:11

us. Yeah, absolutely. I want to

23:14

focus a little bit on the university

23:16

part of it because of course we

23:18

are seeing a crackdown on university speech

23:20

here in the United States and withholding

23:23

of hundreds of millions of

23:25

dollars for various elite universities

23:28

in scientific research and elsewhere. And

23:30

so are you seeing that as similar

23:32

to what has happened in Hungary? How

23:34

has the government of Orban crackdown

23:37

on universities there? So I think

23:39

Orban, I don't think he's inspirational in every

23:41

way and in every matter, but I do

23:44

think in the area of universities he was

23:46

very influential. He did, there are two or

23:48

three things that he did to universities. One,

23:50

he actually banned a university. There was called

23:53

the Central European University. It was actually founded

23:55

genuinely with George Soros money, real George Soros

23:57

money and not the made up version that.

23:59

You know, people are always saying George

24:02

Soros pays for things he doesn't pay

24:04

for, but Soros was a Hungarian and

24:06

he funded what was considered to be

24:08

the best or one of the best

24:10

universities in the country. It was an

24:12

English language university. It educated people from

24:15

all over the region. And Orban decided

24:17

to close it down and push it

24:19

out and used legal trickery to shut

24:21

down the university and it left. I

24:23

think he didn't like it because he

24:26

couldn't control it, he didn't fund it,

24:28

he didn't have any levers of control

24:30

or influence. On his own Hungarian

24:32

universities, he did use the threat,

24:35

funding threats, to shut down certain

24:37

kinds of departments he doesn't like.

24:39

For example, women's studies departments. You

24:41

know, I mean, you'll find this

24:44

familiar too. So anything with the

24:46

word gender in it. Yeah. So

24:48

so academics and studies and programs

24:51

that he didn't like, but I

24:53

think the piece that was inspirational

24:55

here was using federal funding to

24:58

dictate what kind of programs people

25:00

could have. So this does sound

25:02

extremely familiar. Are they literally? copying

25:05

what Orban did when it came

25:07

to universities, getting their ideas from

25:09

this? And by they, I mean

25:12

the architects of Project 2025 at

25:14

the Heritage Foundation and elsewhere, and

25:16

Russell vote, people in the administration,

25:18

who seem to be behind a

25:21

lot of these policies. Is this

25:23

a direct influence by Hungary, or

25:25

is it just coincidental? So,

25:27

obviously I haven't, no one's

25:29

told me that there's an

25:31

exact relationship. However, it is

25:33

true that there was a

25:35

distinct relationship between the Heritage

25:37

Foundation and there's a Hungarian

25:39

think tank called the Danube

25:41

Institute and some of people

25:43

with connections there were at

25:45

Heritage and vice versa. You

25:47

know, the authors of Project

25:49

2025 are clearly people who

25:51

know about the Hungarian project. So,

25:54

I mean, yes, it does look

25:56

like that was that. was directly

25:58

inspirational what about the courts The

26:00

courts is actually a slightly different system

26:03

because they don't have a federal court

26:05

system the way we do the way

26:07

that we do and so I don't

26:09

think that's an exact parallel I mean

26:11

a more interesting possible parallel I mean

26:13

this hasn't happened here yet either is

26:16

to look at what happened to the

26:18

press in Hungary because the press wasn't

26:20

there wasn't mass censorship it wasn't you

26:22

know there wasn't state takeovers of newspapers

26:24

of newspapers or anything like that but

26:26

there were pressures, kind of financial pressures,

26:29

put on independent media. So they would

26:31

be deprived of certain kinds

26:33

of advertising or advertisers would

26:35

be threatened if they advertised

26:37

in the independent press

26:39

or they would be denied government

26:41

advertising, whereas favored newspapers or favored

26:44

magazines or whatever, favored media. would

26:46

have, would get a lot of

26:48

enormous amounts of government advertising. This

26:51

is actually something similar to what

26:53

happened in Poland between 2015 and

26:55

2023. There were also eight years

26:57

of an autocratic populist government that

27:00

also followed Orban and did many

27:02

of the same things and they

27:04

tried many of these exactly the

27:07

same tactics. So there was legal

27:09

pressure on, on independent media, financial

27:11

pressure, all with the aim of

27:14

favoring certain kinds of... of newspapers,

27:16

certain kinds of television stations, and

27:18

repressing others. And it was not,

27:21

it wasn't, it didn't entirely wipe

27:23

out the independent press. There are

27:26

a couple of very good independent

27:28

websites that remain in Hungary,

27:30

but it did, certainly the main

27:32

broadcast news, the main papers that

27:34

used to be the ones people

27:36

read all the time. I mean,

27:38

all of those were effectively taken

27:40

over by the government. So what

27:42

I would say in the US

27:44

is to watch out for... As

27:46

I said, these kinds of financial

27:48

and regulatory pressures, you know, these

27:50

lawsuits that the Trump, either

27:52

Trump himself or those

27:55

around him have launched

27:57

against newspapers and against

27:59

media. that's an initial worrying

28:01

sign. I would watch out

28:04

for, I don't know whether

28:06

it would be tax inspections

28:08

or the use of other

28:10

kinds of regulatory bodies to

28:12

threaten broadcasters, the use of any

28:14

kind of financial pressure, pressure on

28:17

advertisers or something like that, you

28:19

know, those would be the methods

28:22

that were used to control or

28:24

limit. the independent press in Hungary,

28:26

and that has also been tried

28:29

in other places. So I would

28:31

watch out for that here. Right.

28:33

Well, here we have some billionaire

28:36

owners ready, willing and able,

28:38

it seems to... cave to the new

28:40

regime. It's not taking any regulatory

28:42

pressures. Yeah, I mean, what's interesting

28:44

about a lot of them, I mean,

28:46

is a lot of them are people

28:49

who have other interests. So their interest

28:51

isn't only their newspaper. Right. They have

28:53

other business interests. They have other dealings

28:56

with the administration or with the government.

28:58

And of course, those are exactly the

29:00

kinds of people who can be

29:02

pressured. So the argument against the

29:04

United States becoming hungry is that

29:07

we are a lot different than

29:09

Hungary. As you said earlier, we're

29:11

a lot more diverse. We have

29:13

much more immigration. We're not a

29:15

small country. We have a history

29:17

of democracy. Certainly we're not a

29:19

poor country, at least by GDP

29:21

standards. One of the, if not

29:23

the richest economy in the history of

29:25

the world. So can you really make

29:28

a fair comparison that we are destined

29:30

to become hungry? No, I do. So

29:32

to be absolutely clear, no, no,

29:34

we are not like Hungary. Hungary

29:36

is a small, central European country,

29:38

very centralized. It's much easier for

29:40

Victor Orban to take over the

29:42

institutions of that small state than

29:44

it would be in this country.

29:46

We have a federal system. There

29:49

are all kinds of other areas

29:51

of power. You know, states have

29:53

power, cities have power. You know,

29:55

there's a lot, you know, power

29:57

is much more diverse in the

29:59

United States. that we don't have

30:01

a single police force, for example,

30:03

we don't have, you know, we

30:05

have a much more diverse and

30:07

complicated media. So no, we're not

30:09

like Hungary. The argument of the

30:11

article is rather that, first of

30:13

all, to draw everybody's attention to

30:15

what it is that inspires so

30:17

much admiration and gushing, you know,

30:19

goodwill towards Hungary, including from from President

30:21

Trump in the past? And, you

30:23

know, what are the tactics that

30:25

seem to be so widely admired?

30:27

And also, what were the long-term

30:29

effects? One of the things that

30:31

worries me especially about Elon Musk

30:34

and the role that he's playing

30:36

in the government is that he

30:38

is regulating and you know, firing

30:40

people and having a lot of

30:42

power over agencies that regulate his

30:45

own companies and that in some

30:47

cases subsidize his companies. So if

30:49

he wants to use that to

30:51

his personal advantage, he can. And

30:53

that is almost the definition of

30:56

kleptocracy, you know, the definition of

30:58

oligarchy, is that you have somebody

31:00

in somebody in whom you have

31:02

political and economic power combined, and

31:05

they use the forces of the

31:07

state and the institutions of the

31:09

state and maybe even the

31:11

taxpayers' money to enrich themselves.

31:14

You wrote a couple of years

31:16

ago in 2023 after the Polish

31:18

elections about the surprise results to

31:20

oust the lawn justice party, the...

31:23

conservative, far-right party. You wrote, the

31:25

victory of the Polish opposition proves

31:27

that autocratic populism can be

31:29

defeated even after an unfair election.

31:32

Nothing is inevitable about the rise

31:34

of autocracy or the decline of

31:36

democracy. Invest your time in political

31:38

and civic organization if you want

31:41

to create change because sometimes it

31:43

works. So do you see that

31:45

happening here that people are beginning to

31:47

do that? Well, this is a, we're

31:50

at a very early moment. So

31:52

we're only three months into the,

31:54

into a Trump administration that is

31:56

clearly trying to set up a

31:58

more autocratic political system. there's any

32:00

entity really doubts that anymore. And

32:03

you are already beginning to see

32:05

people who understand that and articulate

32:07

it, which is the first step.

32:09

The key will be finding a

32:12

way to make people draw a

32:14

connection between their own personal experiences

32:16

and their own lives and what's

32:18

happening far away in Washington or

32:20

in distant government offices. In Poland,

32:23

what was really important was people

32:25

began to see and feel the

32:27

impact of corruption. There was graft,

32:29

the government was being used for

32:31

the personal interests of the people

32:34

running it. Another thing that made

32:36

a big difference was, as people

32:38

began to understand in Poland, you

32:40

had the corruption of courts. You

32:43

had a successful attempt, I should

32:45

say, to pack courts. And as

32:47

people began to see that some

32:49

of these court decisions were really

32:51

affecting their lives, they became angry

32:54

in Poland. There was an abortion

32:56

case. There was a very harsh

32:58

abortion law that made abortion illegal,

33:00

even in the case of... difficult

33:03

or troubled pregnancies and as a

33:05

result of which a couple of

33:07

women died and that was very

33:09

effective, you know, it was horrible

33:11

and it was effective in convincing

33:14

a lot of people, especially women,

33:16

that there was a distinction, there

33:18

was a connection between this theoretical

33:20

idea of judicial independence and the

33:23

reality of people's lives. So I

33:25

think once... We need democratic politicians

33:27

and others and who can draw

33:29

the connections between decisions that are

33:31

being made now and what's happening.

33:34

the drama of the crashing stock

33:36

market, I'm sure, is going to

33:38

not escape people's notice. Yeah. I

33:40

mean, that's going to be something

33:42

the Hungarians didn't do. They didn't

33:45

tank their stock market. They're inside

33:47

the European Union. So they couldn't

33:49

do what President Trump has done

33:51

with tariffs. But those kinds of

33:54

things will, I hope, shock people

33:56

into understanding the drama of these

33:58

changes. And Applebaum is a Pulitzer

34:00

Prize winning historian and staff writer

34:02

at the Atlantic. It's called Autocracy

34:05

in America. And thank you for

34:07

coming back on the show. Thanks

34:09

for having me. Coming up, Jeff

34:11

Bridges is here. The big Labowski

34:14

star is also a lifelong musician.

34:16

He has a new album out.

34:18

of music he recorded with his

34:20

friends back in the early 70s.

34:22

We'll talk to him about that,

34:25

and we'll also talk to him

34:27

about his brush with death early

34:29

in the COVID pandemic. That's next

34:31

on press play. K.C.R.W.

34:41

sponsors include Sony Pictures Classics, presenting

34:43

On Swift Horses, starring Daisy Edgar

34:45

Jones, Jacob Alorty, Will Polter, and

34:48

Sasha Kaye. Muriel and her husband

34:50

Lee are beginning a bright new

34:53

life in California when he returns

34:55

from the Korean War, but their

34:57

newfound stability is upended by the

35:00

arrival of Lee's charismatic brother Julius,

35:02

a wayward gambler with a secret

35:04

past. Opening April 25th only in

35:07

theaters. Get tickets now at On

35:09

Swift Horses.com. This

35:15

is press play on

35:18

89.9 KCRW. I'm Madeline

35:20

Brand. Slow magic comes

35:22

and goes. You never

35:25

think you'll have it.

35:27

And then it's yours.

35:30

Coming up like two

35:32

months. Oh, and it

35:34

feels like two minutes.

35:37

That's a song called

35:39

Slow Magic. It's the

35:41

title track from a

35:44

newly released album by

35:46

Jeff Bridges. Yes, that

35:49

Jeff Bridges. The actor

35:51

best known as the

35:53

pot smoking white Russian

35:56

drinking dude in the

35:58

Big Labowski. Bridges revealed

36:00

his musical talents to

36:03

the world when he

36:05

played a faded country

36:08

musician in the... 2009

36:10

film Crazy Heart. Bridges

36:18

won the Academy Award for Best

36:20

Actor. By that time he had

36:22

been making his own music for

36:24

decades and this recently unearthed album

36:27

was recorded with his childhood friends

36:29

here in his hometown of Los

36:31

Angeles back in the 70s and

36:33

80s. You can hear them messing

36:35

around in the studio in the

36:38

album's opening track called He's Here.

36:40

The song sat on a decaying

36:42

cassette tape for about 50 years

36:44

until Bridges showed them to an

36:47

old friend and musical collaborator. And

36:49

now it's been released as an

36:51

album. Jeff Bridges, welcome. Thank you,

36:53

Madamard. Well, good to have you.

36:56

And so how did you decide

36:58

to release this as an album?

37:00

Well, it was all a big

37:02

surprise to me, actually. The guy

37:05

you alluded to, his name was

37:07

Kefus Chonsia. Wow. And he's an

37:09

incredible musician, a dear dear friend,

37:11

and then he called me in

37:13

one day and he said, why

37:16

don't you come on into the

37:18

studio and bring all your stuff

37:20

and we'll see, you know, listen

37:22

to some songs and do something.

37:25

So I brought in a pile

37:27

of songs and I brought in

37:29

this little cassette tape from the

37:31

70s. And he loved those songs

37:34

and without telling me. He sent

37:36

them to a friend of his,

37:38

Matt Sullivan, at Light and the

37:40

Attic, a record company, and Matt

37:42

dug the tunes to, and he

37:45

called my music manager Gene Seavers,

37:47

who called me and said, hey,

37:49

they want to make an album

37:51

off this cassette. And I said,

37:54

you mean redo the song? She

37:56

says, no, no. they want to

37:58

put it out just like it

38:00

is this company Light and the

38:03

attic specializes in archival music and

38:05

this certainly qualifies you know being

38:07

50 years old yeah so I

38:09

was totally surprised and delighted mainly

38:11

because it It rekindled all these

38:14

old relationships, you know, that guys

38:16

that I hadn't seen in a

38:18

long time and it was fun

38:20

to catch up with those guys

38:23

and get the music out. Oh

38:25

my gosh, so it was a

38:27

year and a bunch of friends.

38:29

Actually, some friends you met and

38:32

were friends within high school, right?

38:34

Yeah, all the guys I think.

38:36

Oh wow. And so what was

38:38

going on? Like we just heard

38:41

you guys fooling around at the

38:43

beginning of that track and the

38:45

intro. What was happening? Where were

38:47

you? What were you doing? Were

38:49

you partying a lot? Yeah, my

38:52

buddy Steve Bain, this is, you

38:54

know, we go back to grammar

38:56

school, you know, together. He was

38:58

in bands during high school. with

39:01

some of the stand air off

39:03

was another fella in these jam

39:05

sessions and Steve was in you

39:07

know kind of a formal band

39:10

where they would play cover tunes

39:12

and so forth and he got

39:14

very tired of that and he

39:16

said what would we like to

39:18

just have almost like a party

39:21

atmosphere no songs allowed you know

39:23

cover songs no songs that you're

39:25

writing anything like that just on

39:27

Wednesday nights we would meet at

39:30

his house and jam. True jams,

39:32

now singing was, you know, encouraged.

39:34

And he recorded every session that

39:36

we did. And during, right around

39:39

this time, I was doing a

39:41

movie called Hearts of the West.

39:43

And the music. The guy was

39:45

doing the score for that, a

39:47

guy named Ken Lober. He came

39:50

into my trailer one day and

39:52

I was playing him some tunes.

39:54

And he goes, oh, these are

39:56

great. Why don't we record some

39:59

of them? So I said, okay,

40:01

so I had been writing a

40:03

lot of songs during these Wednesday

40:05

night jams. None of them really

40:08

played at the jams, because that

40:10

was against the rules. But I

40:12

told Ken, I said, I got

40:14

these musicians, you know, why don't

40:17

we just see what happens? So

40:19

some of the tunes on the

40:21

album were done in a little

40:23

warehouse that I rented in Venice

40:25

and, you know, done on the

40:28

Tiac four track kind of thing.

40:30

And then there are... two songs

40:32

on the album, Kong, and here

40:34

on this island, that were recorded

40:37

at Village Recorders in Los Angeles,

40:39

and they're a little more polished,

40:41

not much. But that's how they

40:43

came to be. That's what these

40:46

songs are. And then some of

40:48

them were even Wednesday night jam

40:50

type songs, total jams. There was

40:52

space one and space two on

40:54

the album is just what it

40:57

was like back in the day

40:59

with the Wednesday night jam. That

41:01

was a typical kind of sound

41:03

where you know people were encouraged

41:06

to play instruments that they didn't

41:08

know how to play you know

41:10

that sort of thing. Just let

41:12

the music muse have its way

41:15

with you kind of thing. Okay

41:17

well let's hear that then. We

41:19

have a bit from space one.

41:21

Here it is. As

41:37

I asked you before, were

41:39

you on drugs? At the

41:41

time? Drugs were involved in

41:44

this in the opening song.

41:46

Noxious. It's all, you know,

41:48

we're talking about taking quailudes

41:50

and you know, but these

41:52

are the, these are the

41:55

days of experimentation. Yeah. I

42:04

was drinking a little too much.

42:06

Oh, was thinking about on another

42:08

quail? I was talking too much.

42:11

But it was a time, it

42:13

was a time of, uh, innocence,

42:15

you know, the dark side of

42:18

those drugs hadn't shown up till

42:20

later and thank God we learned

42:22

our lesson. about the shadow side

42:24

of this. Yeah. How old were

42:27

you at this time? I don't

42:29

know, 50 years ago, what is

42:31

that? In your 20s? I'm 75

42:34

now. So 25? And some of

42:36

these tunes even go back earlier

42:38

than 77, you know, 75, 76.

42:41

Yeah. Yeah. And so yeah, so

42:43

you were noodling around on some

42:45

of these songs. It's a lot

42:48

different from the kind of country

42:50

blues stuff that you went on

42:52

to record later, because you have

42:55

recorded two other albums. Yeah, there's

42:57

quite a bit, quite different. Uh-huh.

42:59

And I want to play, you

43:02

mentioned the song Kong. You started

43:04

in the movie King Kong, the

43:06

1976 remake, and this song features

43:08

a monologue by the actor Burgess

43:11

Meredith. Set this one up for

43:13

us. Tell us about the song

43:15

Kong, and then we'll hear a

43:18

little bit of it. Well, I

43:20

was making this movie King Kong,

43:22

you know, with Jessica Lang and

43:25

Charles Groen, Dino De Laurentis movie.

43:27

And one day Dino calls me

43:29

into his office, and I think

43:32

I'm going to get fired or

43:34

something, he says, uh, Jeffy, I

43:36

will say two words to you.

43:39

Carl Letu. And I didn't know,

43:41

he says, Carl Letu. I said,

43:43

what? And he says, the sequel,

43:46

you know. So I said, oh,

43:48

well, let me think about that.

43:50

That's great. He goes, yes, think

43:52

about it. So I did think

43:55

about it. And I came up

43:57

with this idea. We hadn't shot

43:59

the end of. the movie yet

44:02

where the giant monkey falls off

44:04

the trade towers. So I said,

44:06

Dino, what if the monkey falls

44:09

off the trade towers crashes on

44:11

the ground and we find out

44:13

that he's a machine. And then

44:16

and that's how we end the

44:18

first movie and then the sequel

44:20

is Charles Groden's character buys the

44:23

carcass of this machine and starts

44:25

to tour with it. Take it.

44:27

Take it around. and religions form

44:30

around this mechanical ape and the

44:32

dance crazes and I pitched it

44:34

to them and he might he

44:36

had the look that you might

44:39

have on your face right now.

44:41

I think it's a good idea

44:43

it sort of sounds like planet

44:46

the apes. And he looked at

44:48

me you know with this is

44:50

kind of implacable the expression and

44:53

so I but it wanted to

44:55

have its way with me this

44:57

idea so I wrote a song

45:00

about it. And I thought, oh

45:02

and my friend Burgess Meredith, when

45:04

the monkeys's falling, it can be

45:07

kind of based on the Hindenburg

45:09

disaster. You know, oh my God,

45:11

he's headed out. And the monkeys's

45:14

crashing around. Oh, the humanity. There's

45:16

blood on them in the plaza

45:18

and the blood's burning. And New

45:21

York City was the king. It's

45:23

a machine. You know what that

45:25

means. It's a machine. Wow,

45:28

there's a lot going on

45:31

here. Yeah, and then in

45:33

that same session, Burgess said,

45:36

hey, I've got a poem

45:38

I'd like to recite. You

45:40

guys back me. And so

45:43

we did that. That's on

45:45

the album as well. They're

45:48

called Here On This Island.

45:50

Which we saw and found

45:52

so when you were recording

45:55

all of these songs, were

45:57

you thinking at the time

46:00

that you wanted to release

46:02

them or was it just

46:04

you and your friends just

46:07

letting your freak flag flow

46:09

and you want to just

46:11

explore all sorts of creativity?

46:14

I think it was... Mostly that

46:16

occasionally would have the dream, you

46:18

know, oh, we should, you know,

46:20

get together and practice and, you

46:22

know, get it together. But that

46:24

rule that Bame had where nothing

46:26

was, you know, nothing was precious,

46:28

nothing was, you know, sacred, it

46:30

was all a jam, you know,

46:32

that was kind of running through

46:34

it. I personally... had some ideas

46:36

about making albums and stuff, but

46:38

I also was making movies, you

46:40

know. You know, I would write

46:42

during the movies, sometimes I would

46:45

get mad at myself because I'd

46:47

be in my hotel, you

46:49

know, studying my lines for

46:51

the next day, and I would have

46:53

this song idea, and I would,

46:55

you know, say, you know, get

46:57

this, start playing this song, and

46:59

then I would get mad at

47:01

myself. You know, you've got to

47:03

get back on... You're studying, you

47:05

know, your seeds. But later I

47:07

kind of learned that when I

47:09

start to shake up my

47:12

creativity, it comes out in

47:14

all different ways, drawing, painting,

47:16

ceramics, music, you know, acting.

47:18

They're all kind of, they're

47:20

all connected somehow with me.

47:22

So your dad was the famous

47:25

actor, Lloyd Bridges, your brother was

47:27

an actor, your sister too, and...

47:29

You were encouraged from a very

47:31

early age to get into acting

47:33

and you were a child actor

47:35

and then, of course, a very

47:37

successful actor for the rest of

47:40

your life. Did you ever wonder,

47:42

well, what if I hadn't done

47:44

that and I had devoted myself full-time

47:47

to music? Yeah, yeah, I wonder,

47:49

you know, you never know, I

47:51

think, if I did that, I

47:53

would have still met the same kind

47:55

of challenges that I do now, you

47:57

know, you know, my dad, you

48:00

was so gung-ho about all his kids

48:02

going into acting and you know I I

48:04

resisted it a bit you know who wants

48:06

to do what their parents want them

48:08

to do right so I thought you know

48:10

I want to do this music you know

48:13

and he said Jeff you're going to

48:15

be asked to do all those things

48:17

you're interested in as an actor

48:19

that's one of the great things

48:22

about being an actor is that

48:24

you get to be in all

48:26

these different incarnations of folks you

48:29

know So it proved true, you

48:31

know, you mentioned, you know, Crazy

48:33

Heart and Baker Boys was another

48:36

chance. So I've gotten to explore

48:38

my music, but it has taken

48:41

the back seat to the acting.

48:43

And, you know, I don't know,

48:45

I don't know how it would

48:48

have been any different. I thank

48:50

God that I still have

48:52

this desire. to do the

48:54

music, you know, that the

48:57

music kind of pushes itself

48:59

through me. I love that

49:01

and the music is very

49:03

much in my life still.

49:05

That's wonderful. And I

49:07

read in the very

49:09

extensive and in-depth and really

49:12

lovely liner notes to

49:14

this that back in

49:16

2020, 25 years ago,

49:18

you had non-Hodgekins lymphoma

49:20

and also... while you

49:22

were undergoing chemo, you

49:25

were infected with COVID

49:27

and you were really, really

49:29

sick and almost died. And

49:32

that you re-recorded the song

49:34

Slow Magic shortly after

49:37

that. What does that song mean

49:39

to you? I mean, I learned

49:41

stuff, you know, when I was

49:43

sick, I learned about the

49:45

gift, you know, of each

49:47

moment, how wonderful each year.

49:50

Each moment is like a gift,

49:52

even a moment like being on

49:54

the doorstep of death, you know,

49:56

that is a gift in a

49:58

way and you learn. things

50:00

in that present that you

50:03

can only learn when you

50:05

open that particular gift. So

50:08

that's something I learned at

50:10

those, you know, at that

50:12

time. And even before that,

50:15

you know, so I learned

50:17

it in a strong way,

50:20

but prior to that, you

50:22

know, it's basically the thing

50:25

that the very thing that

50:27

you're afraid of, if you're

50:29

afraid of get into it,

50:32

that can be where the

50:34

treasure in life lots, you

50:37

know? Mm. And that was

50:39

something that, you know, as

50:42

far as I can remember

50:44

back, that idea was kind

50:47

of being born and in

50:49

my illness it really came

50:51

strong and that's still, you

50:54

know, with me now, I

50:56

see it. Thank you for

50:59

coming on the show today.

51:01

Oh, good to be with

51:04

you. Great to have you.

51:06

That's actor and musician Jeff

51:08

Bridges. His new album is

51:11

called Slow Magic, 1977 to

51:13

1978, and it's out now,

51:16

wherever you get your music.

51:18

And that'll do it for

51:21

us today on press play,

51:23

leaving you with a little

51:25

magic. I'm Madeline Brand, I'll

51:28

see you tomorrow.