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Hello and welcome to Python Bytes, where we deliver Python news and headlines directly to your earbuds.

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This is episode 412, recorded Monday, December 2nd, 2024.

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I am Michael Kennedy. And I am Brian Okken.

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This episode is brought to you by us, especially our Black Friday things.

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Visit our website for the Black Friday things.

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You have 14 hours, so make haste.

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Make haste. Hopefully you listen straight away.

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And if not, thanks for supporting our work and check out our courses and things like that.

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Links are in the show notes. You can also get the summary of every episode delivered directly to you.

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Handcrafted, artisanal newsletter by Brian Okken here.

0:41

So check that out. And we mentioned this last time, but we are now Blue Skyians.

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We now live in the sky, the blue sky.

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In particular, Python Bytes is over there with the handle Python, you know, at pythonbytes.fm.

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And both Brian and I are linked directly from there.

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So come follow us. I have a little extra, extra, extra to follow up on Blue Sky and Mastodon and Twitter, X Twitter, whatever.

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All of these things. So I think you will find that interesting.

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But right now, I would like to know, Brian, what you find interesting.

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I find interesting that there's a controversy over loop targets.

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This is so inside baseball, I think.

1:23

But okay. So Ned Batchelder wrote a blog post and apparently a social media post on Blue Sky, actually.

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But about what loop targets are.

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So what I'm talking about is a for loop.

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So if you say for, like for X in range 10 or something like that, then X gets assigned 10, like 0 through 9, right?

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So what's the controversy? The controversy is what you should put in for X.

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So in his little code example, he's got for param, he's got a parameter dictionary.

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And there's a query and a page size.

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There's no page element, but we're going to fill that in later.

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So what he's doing is he has coded for params, quote, page in iter tools count.

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And what that's going to do is it's just going to go through and get 100 things at a time and put them in a page dictionary until it's empty.

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And there's a break to get out of the loop once there are no results left.

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I think this is kind of clever and I don't see the problem here.

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So the problem is this kind of this params, this index into the dictionary.

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And that's where you're putting the loop parameters. Yeah, this is wild because I've seen exploding or expanding tuples into multiple things like for thing in dictionary, the items,

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it's a maybe key comma value in the loop target.

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And that's perfectly normal. But assigning a key in the dictionary, this is new to me.

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Really? OK. Yeah. I'm not necessarily I'm neutral on it, whether or not it should be done, but I'm just learning about it now.

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OK. So in the discussion, so really what's happening is there's in the discussion, he talks about it, that you could have like an extra variable.

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You could say page num. So for page num in iter tools count, it makes it more clear.

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And then you assign the page num to the, you assign that to the dictionary.

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But really, you're just using this page num just as a temporary variable just to stuff it in there.

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So I say, why not just put just to just assign it where you're going to use it.

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And because this extra line of code, I don't know, I'm kind of on the fence because this is more clear.

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I think it's more clear to use a temporary variable.

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It's more readable. However, there's an extra line of code.

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So it is like that much more. It's not that much more readable, I don't think.

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And it's not. And there's that. If this in this short code snippet, not a big deal.

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But in a larger for loop, you may have more reason to possibly have something break because somebody like, you know, commented that line out or something and it suddenly doesn't work.

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So anyway, I'm like, this is weird.

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This is controversy. But even so he wrote this up just to talk about it and ask what people think.

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And most of the responses are like, no.

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Or one, I think it's a cool idea.

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And I think it's a terrible idea.

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Anyway, I guess I'm bringing this up because I just want to point out that with for loops, there's an implicit assignment.

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And so you can use that assignment to assign to wherever you want to use the variable.

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So I'm going to make an observation here.

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You tell me what you think. I believe the people who are for this are also fans of the walrus operator.

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And people who are against this are anti-walrus.

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Oh, that might be true. Right.

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It's kind of the same thing. It's in a for loop, you're assigning to a variable and kind of sort of defining and assigning in a sense.

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Whereas, you know, the walrus operator does it for if statements.

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But it's like not assign the variable, then test it.

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It's like all at once do the assign and test or assign and loop.

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But there is already an assign in the for loop.

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It's always assignment. But is it colon equals?

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No, I'm just kidding. Is it colon in? Yeah.

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No, it's interesting. It does. Yeah.

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It's for loop, the original walrus operator.

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All right. All right. I'm actually going to come back to loops, but not yet.

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I want to talk about the standard library.

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No, no. Not the one that you know. Not the one that comes with CPython.

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The async standard library. It's the missing toolbox for an async world.

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Did you know we're living in an async world? I feel like a little Madonna is rocking in my back.

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Is that Madonna? I don't know. Yeah.

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So one of the problems is if you go and look at many of the things that you know and love,

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say, iter tools or functools, those things have not been kind of blowing my mind because

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they could be, have not been updated to support async.

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Okay. So when you do like functools, you know, say a decorator at functools.lrucache, that is

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perfect for a synchronous function.

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It doesn't work for an async one.

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And why do I think that it should work for it?

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Because just a couple of weeks ago, I covered my chameleon flask decorator for templates.

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And I, in a hundred lines of code, I wrote something that decorates and operates on both

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sync and async functions. So surely the people who create async.io could probably like write a multi-operator decorator

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deal, but they don't. And I have no idea if there's any intention ever for them to do so.

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So what this is, is it's kind of like a clone of those things.

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Not totally. It also has some other nice features, but it's like an async version of those.

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So if you have an async function, you want to apply an LRU cache to it.

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Well, go grab this bad boy. So it's got a bunch of built-ins for things like asynchronous zip sum, or even converting

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the list. It has functools that supports things like I talked about LRU cache.

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And if you look at it, it's looks a whole lot like you would imagine.

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It has a max size. It has typed and so on, but it operates on a waitable.

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And it returns an LRU async callable, something you can await like you should the function,

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rather than just a coroutine that is, I don't know, where you cache the coroutine.

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I don't know. It doesn't make a lot of sense.

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So this is what this is about. It's got a bunch of things like that.

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It has the built-ins. It's got a functools libraries for iterators, async caches, attributes, the context lib and

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async context lib. So I can do things like add async decorator in context that derives from a context decorator.

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And you can basically a short circuit, the implementation, a simple implementation of a

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enter and a exit. So on. It has a heap queue, which implements Python's heap queue, but for async, which is pretty cool.

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So you want to merge and stuff. And then it has some extra tools.

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And I don't really, I haven't done enough with this to know whether this is useful, how I

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would use it. So stick with it. Anyway, it has things like borrow, where you can borrow an async iterator to prevent it from

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closing. Okay. I don't know about that.

8:03

You got scoped ones, but this one is really nice.

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I've written this code before and it's not easy to get completely right.

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It has a thing that you can just call async standard lib dot sync, giving it a async function

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and it'll just, sorry, the way around, given async function, it will turn it into an async

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function that you can await if you need to.

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Or, yeah, or you can give it an async one as well.

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And it doesn't really care. I think it adapts.

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But so a bunch of stuff going on here. If you're like, ah, there's a bunch of these cool built-ins that I'm used to and they don't

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work with async. Well, check out the async standard lib.

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Very cool. I think it seems like we have a typed Python and non-typed Python.

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And now we have async Python and synchronous Python.

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And then we're going to have free-threaded and non-free-threaded.

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We're going to have typed async free-threaded Python.

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Yeah.

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And every other combinatorial possibility there.

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It's going to be nuts. Yeah. Yeah. But I think this is a cool one.

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It's not super popular. Let me go back to it and see what its GitHub stars are.

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But it's kind of one of those things that's like, yeah, this is definitely worth it.

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I don't know. So it has some. Oh, here we go.

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No, don't say. 240. So it's starting to pick up some speed.

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But I think it's real simple. It's like the kind of thing that's either going to work or not work.

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So if it's useful for you, go for it. Nice.

9:21

Yeah. It's cool. I was going to talk about.

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I haven't had breakfast yet. So I was going to talk about some.

9:28

Maybe getting a bagel. You want a bagel? Okay. Yeah.

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I love bagels. As long as it got everything, we're good.

9:33

Everything bagel. Let's go. Well, I am taking a look at a project called Enhanced Jack.

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It's called Bagels from Enhanced Jack.

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Who's Enhanced Jack's? It's Jack's Tam.

9:44

Cool. Aspiring student studying.

9:46

Oh, no. University student. Cool. Anyway, why am I bringing up bagels?

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Well, bagels is kind of a fun little expense tracker.

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But I think it's a great example of using Textual for something that, you know, people probably

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could sink their teeth into pretty easy. So it's an expense tracker with multiple accounts using Textual.

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I've tried it out. It's really pretty easy. There's a bunch of stuff I like about this.

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And I'm bringing it up. Not really because I think everybody needs an expense tracker.

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But I think a lot of people look for a starter, like a starter project to possibly tweak and make

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their own. And I think this might be kind of a fun thing for people to look at.

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A few things about it. I like it that it's in the command line.

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It's a textual app. But it's also the install instructions.

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I love seeing this. It's starting to use the UV tool install so that you can just run bagels from anywhere.

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It's the way. This is the way. This is the way.

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And it's so fast to get started.

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I also like that the project is pretty new.

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But it's just a few weeks started.

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But there's already some features included.

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Features included is great. And then also how to development setup is listed.

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And it doesn't talk about how to run tests.

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But that's all right. It's running pytest, of course.

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But then a roadmap of sort of things that they'd like to add to it.

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It's heavily inspired by posting.

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So anyway, just a fun little project. The tests are in place.

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It's not a complete coverage yet.

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But it's a new project. So if you want to help out, I think it's a good thing for people to check out.

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Also, I've always wanted to write my own little expense tracker.

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And so this is a good start for even if it doesn't do everything I wanted to do,

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to take up the code base and maybe play with it, learn some stuff.

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It's also, it's written, it's using, I can't remember.

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It was using a PostgreSQL, like a SQLAlchemy.

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Also, if you want to have a simple, small project that uses SQLAlchemy to learn that,

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be a good one to take a look at. Awesome. Yeah, that's really cool.

11:59

And we've covered Postling?

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What was it called? You covered it. The Posting.

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Yeah. A little app that was written in.

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Posting, what was that? Remember? That was the Postman alternative for the terminal written in textual, which is cool.

12:14

Yeah, which is like a dream to work with.

12:16

It's a fun one. Yeah, very nice.

12:18

I want to, since you brought this up, I'll throw this out here.

12:21

Not super necessarily relevant. But I recently ran across maybe.co.

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Okay. It's almost a company, but it lost the M along the way.

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Anyway, it's a fully open source OS for your personal finances running on Docker.

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If you want to do self-hosting, keep all of your data private instead of like sending off

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to Intuit or somewhere that it probably doesn't belong.

12:42

So anyway, people can check that out. That's kind of cool. Cool. Not an endorsement.

12:44

Haven't used it, but kind of thinking about it. I would rather bring it full circle.

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We began with loops. Let us end with loops.

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Isn't that perfect for a full circle? They go in circles, don't they?

12:54

Yeah. So this is the early days sort of thing, but Giovanni, who is the creator of the Emmet framework

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and more relevant to us, the Grannion AsyncSync Rust-based web server that powers Python bytes

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and other things that we have, is creating this thing that is an alternative to UV loop.

13:13

So UV loop is a, I think it's based on LibUV.

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I can't remember exactly the origins of it, but it's a loop that you can plug in as an alternative

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for the AsyncIO event loop implementation.

13:25

Okay. So why would you do that?

13:28

Well, it turns out that you can optimize some of the juggling of the little tasks.

13:34

So if you have like three tasks, one is call the website, one is talk to the database,

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one is write a file or whatever, don't do anything.

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The built-in one's fine. But if you have a million tasks and you're breaking them into little tiny pieces and they're jumping

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all over, like that juggling could be faster with UV loop.

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And I think that's where we're going to see it go with our loop.

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So our loop is an Async event loop implemented in Rust and it's coming along.

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It is a work in progress and not ready.

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But the reason I bring it up early in its life here is it's a really cool option.

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We've seen how significant the improvements for other Rust things like Pydantic and UV have

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been. And so if you're passionate about this and you want to have maybe a little influence

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before it gets fully baked as this thing's coming to life, you know, jump in.

14:17

The way you use it is just like UV. It's super easy.

14:20

Just before you do Async things, you just say AsyncIO.setEventLoopPolicy, which is a factory,

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I'm thinking. Kind of a factory method more.

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I don't know, whatever. And you just give it Rloop.EventLoopPolicy.

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And that means anytime code creates a new event loop, it's going to be using the factory

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method from Rloop rather than the built-in one.

14:38

Off you go. Cool. Yeah. Well, cool.

14:40

Well, that's it for our items, right? I think so.

14:43

Yeah. I think it is. Extras?

14:45

What do you think? Extras? Yeah, I have a few.

14:48

You want me to jump in? Jump in. I am, I've had a lot of stuff going on in personal life lately and trying to fit everything into

14:56

my life is sometimes difficult. So I've been reading, reading, reading in quotes, listening to the audio book for 4,000

15:04

weeks, a time management, time management for mortals.

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It's a book by Oliver Berkman. And I'm listening to it for the second time now in the last couple of weeks.

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I just picked it up a week or so ago, but I'm really enjoying it.

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And it's more of a, you can't get everything done, but that's okay.

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Just how to be okay with the limitations of life.

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So very refreshing time management book.

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It's also got some practical advice too, but it's great.

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So highly, highly recommend that.

15:36

It's advent of, advent of code time.

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And I've heard of the, so I've definitely heard of the advent of code, but the advent of

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code.com. Very cool. A lot of people do that every year for in December to do little code snippets every year.

15:53

But today I came across Adrian Roselli's development advent calendars for 2024.

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So if advent of code isn't quite what up your alley, there's a whole bunch here.

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There's HTML hell advent calendar.

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There's a whole bunch of code and code-based advent calendars here.

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So none of them Python specific.

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There's a Perl specific, but C# advent of cyber.

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Just quite a, quite a few fun, different calendars.

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CSS. If you wanted to learn CSS, maybe there's just CSS.

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The Joomla advent calendar. You too can host it.

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So yeah. And apparently it's gone, it's gone back.

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He's got links back to 2010.

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So it's fun. Wow. Yeah.

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If you get your homework done early, you can do more advent of calendars.

16:38

Yeah. I don't, so I tried, I tried advent of code a couple of years ago.

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And then I just realized that like in my free time, I've, I'm doing so much code coding at

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work, side hustles and everything that I kind of want to do things like draw and paint and

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cook and things like that when, when I'm doing other stuff.

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So anyway, I hear you. I'm the same.

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I already do a lot of programming. Even in my spare time, I do more programming.

17:03

Yeah. And so I don't need extra ones, but I know it helps people, especially people are trying

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to learn a topic. It can kind of force you if you don't have a way to apply it.

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And today is December 2nd, Monday, traditionally a cyber Monday.

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And it is the last day for the black Friday sale, turkey sale for the python test.com courses,

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however. And so I'll take, I'll take off the automatic.

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But if you, if you hit me, if you're listening to this later, you know, close in it, close

17:32

ish to December 2nd, direct message me on, on blue sky and I'll hook you up.

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So anyway, that's it. Blue sky. That's a good transition.

17:40

All right. Also black Friday at talk python.

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So talkpython.fm/ black Friday, 20 to 50% off the course library.

17:47

Nice logo there. The image is great.

17:49

Thanks. That's pure CSS, by the way. That's some mad glow in CSS.

17:53

Yeah, it's cool. Yeah. Awesome.

17:55

All right. So we'd talk blue sky.

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So I just, you know, last week when I finished producing the show and I published it onto the

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internet, typically go to the social networks and I'll do a quick post.

18:06

Hey, new episodes out. Enjoy it. If you want it. This one had a little guitar solo at the end, which was super fun.

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And so it said latest episode out for 11 TLS client.

18:14

Hello. Guitar solo was the name.

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And I published that and I published it at the same time with the same text to X,

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Fostadon, Mastadon and blue sky.

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And I just thought, huh, I wonder what the engagement looks like, because I don't know how you've been

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feeling, Brian, but I feel like people, I tried and tried to get folks to go to Mastadon

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and like some, some people came, came along, but a bunch just didn't, you know, they were

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just, you would go back to X and you would just see them all talking there.

18:42

I'm like, man, I don't know. And I'm not necessarily super against X.

18:45

I'm a little bit against it, but I'm not a lot, but it's just, it's become not very practical

18:50

as you'll see in just a second. Not very useful. So, you know, you want to go talk to yourself in a closet.

18:55

It's awesome. You want to talk to other people?

18:57

Well, that's so. Anyway, so my, my test here, this is a non-scientific test that I put out there.

19:03

What is the interaction level per platform?

19:07

And what you have to keep in mind before I tell you guys this, there's a dramatic difference

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in number of followers, subscribers, whatever they're called at that particular location.

19:16

Okay. So basically take the numbers, divide by the number of followers and consider that like

19:20

the amount of interaction. The reason I tell you this is you may want to come follow us and join us on blue sky, but

19:25

that's, that's a bit of a get in the head. So check this out. So over on X, we have 27,000 followers.

19:32

Okay. Posting this exact message one week ago, we got eight likes and two retweets, reposts,

19:38

boost, name it, whatever. Yeah. So I don't know what that is.

19:42

Two divided by 27,000, but it's a small percentage.

19:45

Okay. Fostadon, Mastodon, right?

19:47

It's not Fostadon, Mastodon, because it's across all, all the Fediverse.

19:51

Same posts, identical.

19:53

Here we have 3,000.

19:55

Let me see. 3,100 followers. Okay.

19:57

So yeah, that's great. But this is almost nine times less.

20:01

Something like that, right? It's many, many less times, but four boosts, which is not out of control, honestly, but

20:07

it's in two favorites, two likes. But as a ratio, it's still a lot more because multiply by nine, right?

20:13

Yeah. Blue sky, which we've been there a couple of days.

20:16

We have something like that. We only have a, somebody hover, different hover targets, 750 followers.

20:23

Yeah. Follow us on blue sky. Get over there.

20:25

Yeah. Anyway, we have 16 likes and two reposts and a quote posts and then some conversation

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about it. And that's 30 times less followers and more engagement than both platforms.

20:37

So anyway, I, y'all take that for what it is.

20:40

I just thought that was an interesting experiment. What do you think, Brian?

20:43

Yeah, I'm finding, I'm finding blue sky more interactive.

20:46

I've got about this approximate same numbers on a fostered on or mastodon and, and blue sky

20:53

and, and I'll, I'll get like twice as much interaction on, I mean, approximate gut feel twice as

21:00

much interaction on blue skies. I do on, on mastodon.

21:04

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not saying this to bag on some social network or try to promote other too much.

21:10

I was like, people are trying to find their community.

21:12

I think right now this is where the community is.

21:15

And if you go here, you can go to my account and go to the starter pack and there's the

21:19

Python personalities and you can follow a bunch of us.

21:22

The onboarding experience is way better.

21:24

The, the onboarding experience for mastodon still feels like it's too many decisions right

21:30

at once. And then it's like, if you wanted to play games on Linux, you probably could.

21:35

Yeah.

21:37

Yeah. And I'm a, by the way, I'm, I'm no longer on X.

21:41

So don't notify me there. Yeah. Sounds good.

21:43

All right. A couple of other real quick things on episode 277, I believe.

21:47

I don't have my show notes up, but I'm pretty sure that was the number. Way back when I talked about certain string enumeration, which is a thing that basically

21:55

backports the string enum from Python 3.11.

22:00

So it can be used in other places. It's super cool.

22:02

It's even better than the built-in one, by the way.

22:04

So I can have, I can say, give me a string enum and derive a class from that.

22:10

That becomes an enumeration where you say that thing dot, but then you have the fields and

22:15

just say equals auto, auto, auto, auto. And it'll actually set it to the text of whatever the variable is.

22:20

If you refactor, rename it, it will apply that refactoring to the string version and the variable

22:25

version of it. And you can even do things like use a lowercase or an uppercase one as the base class, a lowercase

22:32

string enum. And that will make the string version lowercase.

22:35

Even if you have a different, a different representation for the variable names.

22:40

Anyway, the re why did I do this? Because on my list monk little client, somebody came and said, why doesn't this work on anything

22:45

less than 3.11? I'm like, because it uses string enum from 3.11.

22:50

So I'm like, you know what? I'll just, I'll just derive from the other class.

22:53

Add that as a dependency. I already had dependencies.

22:55

That's one more small one. And guess what? Now it supports older versions of Python.

22:59

I stopped it at 3.10 because I want nice type-ins.

23:03

I don't want ugly type-ins. You're nicer than me, man.

23:06

I'm like, it doesn't support it.

23:09

It doesn't, because I don't want to support it.

23:11

Yeah. But then I was curious, like, well, why doesn't it?

23:14

And I remember we talked about this thing. And if I literally just change a base class and don't do anything else, that was pretty

23:19

low effort. So, you know, it took like five minutes, right?

23:22

All right. Yeah. So anyway.

23:24

All right. That's it for my extras. Shall we close it out with a joke?

23:29

Yeah. Let's do something funny. Man. I know we were just talking, we just experienced a food holiday in the United States last week

23:35

with Thanksgiving and all. And I hope everyone's was good.

23:38

If you celebrate it. However, sometimes there's a lot of food prep and it can be, it can be hard, right?

23:43

It can be hard. Like you're shopping, you're chopping all of these things.

23:47

So here is a programmer or just a computer user really who has a grocery list.

23:52

And the grocery list says eggs, corn, tomatoes, onions, rice, milk.

23:56

They decide they don't want the onions. So they highlight it and they hit control X and a tear forms in their eye because of course

24:02

it does when you cut onions. That's really funny.

24:06

It's pretty good, right? I mean, yeah, it's good.

24:09

I don't know why. It's cheesy. It's cheesy.

24:11

It's a little cheesy. A little cheesy.

24:13

Yeah.

24:15

I'll do one more for us. That's straight out of the comments because Cohen did a pretty good one.

24:20

When we were talking about the loop targets, it says, how about this?

24:23

We're putting two controversial ideas together. Sum of sum of numbers plus X for numbers of zero in numbers.

24:31

If X colon equal numbers squared is such and such.

24:35

Like, oh my goodness. This is a lot of stuff going.

24:38

I said, here's a job interview for you. Job interview question.

24:42

If you answer with a straight face, you fail. No, it's good.

24:46

Yeah. If you think that's all right. Nope.

24:49

You're out. I don't know. Not seriously, but as a joke, it's pretty good.

24:53

Yeah. Job interview stuff.

24:56

Job interviews are tough. I know a lot of people are going through that now.

24:58

Yeah. Well, you know, the control X part and also the job interview might bring a tear to the

25:03

heights. I don't know. I haven't, I haven't applied for a job in, well, since the nineties, however, which is

25:10

insane. That is insane, man.

25:12

It's actually insane. Um, but because all my job transitions have been like, Hey, you'd be awesome.

25:17

Like, why don't you consider working for, it was more of the other way around, you know,

25:21

which is pretty fortunate, but it sounds like your resume has like, like a lawn mowing

25:26

on it still or something. Exactly.

25:28

I work for companies. They just reached out to me and said, would you consider working for us?

25:33

I know, but you probably didn't have to, you haven't probably had to update your resume

25:36

for a long time. Yeah. My LinkedIn is like, I'm, I've had some experience at a pizza place and I've done lawn mowing.

25:43

So that was good. No, but I do. I was just going to say, I think it's probably pretty brutal.

25:47

You've got to, you know, pass the AI gauntlets and all sorts of weird business and take home

25:52

quizzes. And I can see why there would be tears.

25:54

But not for this in the show. Thank you everyone for coming.

25:58

Thank you, Brian. See y'all later.