0:00

Hey, Ellen,

0:02

how are you

0:04

doing? Hi,

0:09

Rabia. How are you? Great. I'm

0:12

great. It's the end of the week. It's the end. I

0:15

don't even know what day it is, but if

0:17

you say it's the end of the week, I

0:19

say yes and. I am so excited about today

0:22

because we have an amazing guest and a case

0:24

that, you know, I mean, it's riveting. The

0:27

thing is, Rabia, we have to balance

0:29

the well-known cases with this sort of

0:31

cases that we have to bring

0:33

to the public. And this is one of those

0:35

special days where we get to bring a very

0:38

obscure case to our audience. And

0:40

then they just go and Google and they

0:42

do their own research. So I'm really excited

0:44

about it, but I'm actually really excited to

0:47

introduce our guest. I

0:49

am fascinated with her on

0:51

so many levels. So please

0:53

welcome Jordan Berman. She is

0:56

a lawyer, a podcaster, a

0:58

personality. We're just so

1:00

excited to have you. Hi, Jordan. Hello. I'm

1:02

more excited to be here. I'm just

1:05

thrilled at this opportunity and the case.

1:08

Just wait. Just wait until they hear the case. I can't

1:10

wait to talk about it. I just I'm so excited. So

1:12

thank you for having me. Well, Jordan,

1:14

you are among attorneys here. We are all

1:16

of counsel here. I love that. I love

1:19

that. And are you guys practice? You guys

1:21

don't practice. We don't. Jordan, you sweet tropical

1:23

fish. Ellen

1:26

practices on Broadway. I am an actor on

1:28

Broadway and a podcaster. You know what? Hold

1:30

on. I read that and I. So when you

1:32

said that you just threw me off. I'm like, is that serious or

1:34

no? OK. I

1:37

went with it. So you got me. You

1:39

got me. We call her an attorney, attorney

1:41

at law. Attorney. We had a joke in

1:44

our first episode. I was like, I'm a

1:46

lawyer too. The way the

1:48

Internet wanted to cancel me and be

1:50

like, this bitch isn't a lawyer. She's

1:52

lying. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,

1:54

whoa. But also if she is,

1:56

she sucks as a lawyer. Oh,

1:59

my God. I think we just did

2:01

a decent review! Just a

2:03

bunch of silly doosies, nobody's lying,

2:06

reminding the world to just take

2:08

a joke. You know, everything's not that serious.

2:10

It's all good... Yeah... Oh

2:12

my gosh It was brought up in another

2:15

podcast. It was super serious. That's crazy! However,

2:17

an actual attorney and I do post-conviction work,

2:19

so that's my practice field right now. Oh

2:21

you do? Yeah. Okay,

2:23

cool. So you still practice. I'm over here like,

2:25

I got 10 months into work. I was like, see you later. I'm

2:27

going to a podcast. What is your... I'm

2:30

glad you invested all those years and money. And listen,

2:32

my student loans just got paid off last year. I

2:35

can't even imagine. So what did you practice? So I

2:37

had to take the first job I could get, right?

2:39

Because you know, you graduate law school and you're like,

2:41

well, I got to start making money.

2:43

So I worked in insurance

2:45

defense. It's a very boring

2:48

job, but I didn't mind it because

2:50

it was very routine and structured. Like

2:52

your everyday was the same and that's

2:54

where I thrive. I thrive on routine

2:56

and just going into work with my

2:58

to-do list and checking everything off and

3:00

whatever. So I actually didn't mind the

3:02

work. It was more so the firm

3:04

I was at and just all the other

3:06

negatives that come with being an attorney. Bill

3:09

Flowers, all those other things. And I said, you

3:11

know, this is not it for me. This is

3:13

just not it. But I will say even in

3:15

law school, I didn't want to be a lawyer.

3:17

So I went to law school for all of

3:20

the wrong reasons. I went to law school because

3:22

I was nannying for a family growing up. When

3:24

I was 17, I started nannying for the family

3:26

and I got really close to them and they

3:29

were living life. Okay, we would take vacations in

3:31

the Bahamas. We'd go to the city. They had

3:33

a, you know, an apartment on Fifth Avenue. We

3:35

were just living and he was the

3:37

managing partner of a law firm. So

3:40

he would tell me, you know, go

3:42

to law school. Like I'll give

3:44

you a job. You got the end

3:46

and I'm like, great, I'm going to make so much money.

3:48

This is going to be awesome. So I

3:51

didn't really think I went to it

3:53

for the money, not realizing that most

3:55

attorneys actually don't make a lot of

3:57

money out of law school. They're not

3:59

the managing director. But did he give you

4:01

the job? I interned for his firm for the

4:03

first two summers and I just didn't want to

4:05

do it I was just like this is not

4:07

where I want to be so corporate laws boring

4:09

corporate law is really soul-killing I did that for

4:11

the restaurant like that's not me. Yeah a summer

4:13

So yeah, so it's just you know I went

4:15

for the wrong reasons and that's what I tell

4:17

people like if you are really passionate about the

4:19

law Which I'm assuming are you are

4:22

you passionate about the law? Like is that I

4:24

mean we both are I just my law is

4:26

Google And I just am like what does this

4:28

mean? You know what that's

4:30

fantastic because you can get just as much

4:32

education that way and you didn't spend all

4:34

the money So all the power right to

4:37

you So yeah, I went

4:39

for all the wrong reasons and that's why people ask

4:41

me like do you regret it? I'm like, no, I

4:43

don't regret it. I just wish I would have it

4:45

wasn't like a passion of it Wasn't like you were

4:47

like, I this is what I wanted to do my

4:49

whole life. Yes. Yeah, I get that I get I

4:51

want to tell our audience exactly why you're here It's

4:54

actually takes a lot of balls to say

4:56

I don't want to do this There are

4:58

so many people that are in careers and

5:01

jobs and they don't follow their gut So

5:03

I actually really admire you even though you

5:05

put so much work in what being like

5:07

for the rest of my life No, this

5:09

isn't gonna serve me now You

5:11

took all of that education and you put

5:14

it into a passion project and I don't

5:16

want to call it a passion project But

5:18

your work is now your passion So

5:21

for those of you who don't know she

5:23

has a very successful podcast called Unbiased

5:25

and unbiased, of course, I'll let you explain

5:27

it further. But I listen to a couple

5:29

of episodes. First of all, it's daily I

5:32

don't know how you do that. We'll talk

5:34

about it later. I think she has the

5:36

DNA of Ryan Seacrest in her I have

5:38

no idea your goal is to bring impartial

5:41

fact based information What's

5:44

happening in the news what's happening in politics?

5:47

You don't give your opinion, right? You take

5:49

all this stuff we hear in the mainstream

5:51

media and you kind of clear it out

5:53

You distill it and you explain it very

5:56

simply. I think it's really important what you're

5:58

doing. I have ten thousand questions however.

6:00

So just tell me a little bit

6:02

about how your law degree propelled you

6:04

to be on this huge platform. You

6:06

have all these TikTok followers, you have

6:08

an amazing podcast, so tell us how

6:10

you got there. Yeah of course I

6:12

would love to. This is my favorite

6:14

story. So you know, gosh, I stopped

6:17

listening to the news in 2021. I

6:20

just, I could never listen to the news

6:22

and feel good after, right? Like it was

6:24

just always a negative feeling. So I just

6:26

said I'm just gonna stop listening. And when

6:28

I started probably like, I don't know,

6:31

less than a year later talking about

6:33

the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial on

6:36

I saw your coverage on that. Yeah

6:38

and I could talk about some things

6:40

because of my law school education. That

6:42

wasn't my passion. That wasn't what I

6:44

was trying to use my account for

6:46

entirely. It wasn't until the Supreme Court

6:48

ruled in Dobbs versus Jackson

6:51

Women's Health Organization and overturned Roe

6:53

versus Wade that I made a

6:55

video. There was all this hysteria

6:57

going on on both sides and

6:59

I made a video just telling

7:01

myself like I'm gonna take a completely different

7:03

approach and I am just going to tell

7:05

people what is happening. Like what this means,

7:08

what the implications are, what does this mean

7:10

from a judicial standpoint and how can it

7:12

affect us? You know what I mean? Like

7:14

what are the effects? Because there was a

7:17

lot of yelling going on but it wasn't

7:19

actually educating and it's actually so interesting because

7:21

when I talked about the fact that this

7:23

was this case was called Dobbs versus Jackson

7:26

Women's Health Organization, people had no idea. They

7:28

thought that this was Roe versus Wade in

7:30

front of the Supreme Court again and I'm

7:32

like no actually it's an entirely different case

7:35

but indirectly you know it overturned prior precedent.

7:37

So it was just interesting to see how

7:39

people didn't know so much that I felt

7:41

like the average public should. So I took

7:43

a completely different approach and I talked about

7:46

the ruling in a very impartial emotionless way

7:48

and everyone loved it. We did not

7:50

talk about it in an emotionless way.

7:53

So I didn't, no one

7:55

did. No one did. Ellen can't even talk

7:57

about Fig Newtons in an unamor... And

8:02

you know what? There's so much beauty in

8:04

opinion. I do find the beauty

8:06

in opinions. I just think that there

8:08

needs... someone needs to do it, right?

8:10

Someone needs to be the one that

8:12

doesn't have the emotion and just shoot

8:14

it straight. Someone needs to do it.

8:17

That sort of leads me to one

8:19

of my questions just saying that because

8:21

you do have opinions. The way you

8:23

present is just here are the facts,

8:25

do with it what you will, right?

8:27

My husband and my family, they will

8:29

tell you I am the most opinionated person

8:31

that they know. But I think law school

8:33

really helped me in this way because it

8:35

taught me that there's always arguments on both

8:37

sides, right? You can always make an argument

8:39

on both sides. And I respect differing opinions.

8:41

I can listen to someone else's opinion that's

8:43

different than mine and say, you know what?

8:45

I can actually see where you're coming... I

8:47

don't agree with it, but I can see

8:49

where you're coming from. And so you guys

8:51

don't need to hear my opinions. You know

8:53

what I mean? It's not important. Like what

8:55

I feel about it isn't going to change

8:57

your mind. It's not gonna... it doesn't matter.

9:00

So for me, it's so much more important

9:02

just to give the facts behind something so

9:04

that you can be educated enough to then

9:06

go walk away and form your own opinion,

9:08

right? Like that's my whole goal. Jordan, can

9:10

I ask you who is your target audience?

9:13

Is it younger folks, like people who are

9:15

kind of checked out of the news because

9:17

for the same reasons like you were? This

9:19

is a funny question because my demographic is

9:21

mostly older and it's mostly 40

9:24

and above 35 and above I would

9:26

say, because I think

9:28

it's because though that's what they

9:30

grew up with. They grew up with news

9:33

before it was so fueled before it was

9:35

so partisan. And so a lot of my

9:37

followers tell me all the time like I

9:39

miss this so much. Like this is what

9:41

I've been wanting. Now with that said, I

9:43

want to appeal to the younger audience so

9:46

bad. I want to bring them on board

9:48

so, so bad. I don't think they're as

9:50

interested. I hate to say it. Well, here's

9:52

the thing. I'm looking at your episodes are

9:54

18 minutes long. Younger people have 18 seconds

9:57

for you. They're like, we got our news.

9:59

from us. Yeah, yeah, I know I completely

10:01

changed. I know, but how do you explain

10:03

these things? How do you explain these things?

10:05

You do that brilliantly on TikTok because you

10:07

do your headlines in 60 seconds. I think

10:09

it's actually a brilliant catch. You're like, here's

10:11

what's going on. Yeah, I do. And that

10:13

is a way for me to kind of

10:15

bring people in and say for more information,

10:17

go check out the podcast. But if this

10:19

is enough for you, you know, that's fine

10:21

too. I just think with a lot of

10:23

those headlines, and this is my problem with

10:25

mainstream media as well, too often people just

10:27

read the headline and move on, but the

10:30

headline doesn't give enough, you know, and so it's

10:32

a struggle. I want to give you just the headline,

10:34

but at the same time, like, but there's so much

10:36

more like, you know, I also don't think I was

10:38

I cared about the news until I hit maybe 3030

10:41

something. Yeah, like, whatever. Yeah, but it's

10:43

different now. It's different. We had to

10:45

like actually open a paper. Well, you

10:48

know, in your day, the guy had

10:50

to come with the horse drawn buggy.

10:52

And they were like, you

10:54

know, here's your mail. Fire signals. They were

10:56

fired. You had to go to the town

11:00

where they were chiseling the news and

11:02

just don't. How is Jesus, by the

11:04

way, Rabi? He looks

11:07

forward to his return.

11:09

He's so funny. So

11:11

good. I think it's great what you're doing.

11:13

And that's sort of what we do with

11:15

our crash course, right? We give like the

11:17

information. And then we talk about

11:20

the emotions are what comes up. I'm always

11:22

the emotional one. And Rabi is always like

11:24

right, Ellen, but the law says this, but

11:26

I really love that you're just

11:28

kind of like, here are the

11:30

facts because listen, I'm very liberal, I

11:33

have to go and watch Fox News

11:35

intentionally, just to be like, wait, what

11:37

else are other people saying? Because you

11:39

know, that's amazing. Like, I'm so happy

11:41

you do that. Because I tell my

11:44

listeners all the time, if you are

11:46

going to listen to the news, listen

11:48

to the other side as well, right?

11:51

It's never gonna hurt you. In fact, and Rabi,

11:53

you can attest to this, listening to the other

11:55

side's argument actually helps you bolster your own. Like

11:58

if you know their points, you can actually bolster

12:00

your own argument. So there's a lot of benefit in that.

12:02

After 2016, when I was like,

12:04

Wait, what happened? Wait, I was like, Oh, I

12:06

live in a reverse bubble. I need to see

12:08

what everyone else is talking about. We all live

12:11

in our own bubbles, and we create our

12:13

own algorithms. And it is not helpful

12:15

not to know the story and narrative

12:17

that others are, you know, believing it.

12:19

And it could be something that you're like, you don't agree

12:21

with anything. But at least I mean, like, even when I

12:23

think about when I think about these issues, and I think

12:25

a lot about like media, how mediation works and arbitration, you're

12:27

not going to even be able to bring people together

12:29

until you understand what it is they believe. And

12:31

you can't do that unless you let take a

12:34

listen. And I will say there are some people

12:36

that you're never gonna, you're never gonna bring that

12:38

to that. You know what I mean? And that's

12:40

something I've realized too, in creating this platform is

12:42

that there's just some people I'm never gonna reach.

12:44

And that's okay. Those people are too stuck in

12:46

their ways. That's not who I'm for. I am

12:48

for the rational, reasonable, level headed person that can

12:51

sit there and digest the facts. And there's always

12:53

going to be people that are on the extremes.

12:55

And that's okay. Any of your listeners ever reached

12:57

out to you and be like, you know, I

12:59

never really thought about it the way you're presenting

13:01

it. If you guys change my mind, I thought

13:03

X about this issue. But you're presenting it in such

13:05

a nonpartisan way. Have you had that reaction? I'm sure

13:08

I have. It's not often the thing I get the

13:10

most is just how refreshing it is, like the people

13:12

who didn't grow up with it don't even know it

13:14

exists. So when they do hear me, the compliment I

13:16

get the most is just how refreshing it is. That's

13:19

Peter Jennings, that's old school reporting. I mean, that's

13:22

what it was back in the day. Yep. I

13:24

tell people I'm not against opinions. I'm not go

13:26

tune into opinions, but at least get the factual

13:28

baseline first. And that's why I always say I

13:30

have it's kind of a Venn diagram on

13:32

one side, I have people who tune in to

13:35

me because they want that factual baseline first before

13:37

going to mainstream outlets and hearing opinions and whatnot.

13:39

And then on the other side of the Venn

13:41

diagram, you have people that don't really care to

13:43

tune into the news. They just want to know

13:45

the bare minimum. So they're still informed, but not

13:47

and then you have people in the middle that

13:49

want both. So that's the way I really like

13:51

view my audience. We play a little game here

13:53

on Rabia and Ellen called three quick things. We're

13:55

each going to ask you a question. And then

13:57

we ask all of our guests the same. Memaw,

14:01

what is your question for Jordan Berman? So

14:03

my question is actually, and this is in

14:05

response to the story you told us about how

14:07

you came to the law, is if you did not grow up

14:09

thinking I want to be a lawyer, what was your

14:11

dream that you want to grow up and be? What

14:14

was little Jordan like? I can't wait to grow up and be

14:16

other than rich, which we all did.

14:20

A teacher, I would say. Really?

14:23

Oh, no, you'd never be rich. Yeah. No,

14:25

but it makes sense because now I love that my

14:27

job incorporates teaching. I love it. And then when I

14:29

was little, just to answer the question, I used to

14:31

make my sister sit in my room for hours teaching

14:33

her on my whiteboard, just teaching her. And she was

14:35

invisible. And I was like, no, we just have to

14:38

pretend that, you know, so it's easier. I love it.

14:40

I love it. That's a great answer. Okay.

14:43

Since you don't give opinions on your

14:45

podcast or on your platform, what is

14:47

your non-political, non-headline,

14:50

non-newsworthy, hot take? Oh,

14:52

gosh. Like on what?

14:55

Well, I mean, it could be like, you know,

14:58

my hot take is McDonald's. Taylor Swift is

15:00

overrated. I mean, like what? McDonald's Diet Coke is

15:02

far superior than any other Diet Coke there

15:04

is. Fight me and I will win. You know

15:06

what, Robbie, I'm going to take what you just

15:08

said because I do think, and the Swifties

15:10

are going to go crazy. I know. I

15:14

know. I know. Okay. Okay.

15:18

I do think she's overrated. In the

15:20

sense, I completely respect her work ethic.

15:22

I don't get the like crazy hype.

15:24

And by the way, because I know

15:26

the Swifties are about to come for

15:28

me. My final song of my wedding

15:31

night was Enchanted. Okay. So

15:33

I like her. I like her. I

15:35

mean, it's a crazy. You don't get the main night. I don't either.

15:37

I don't either. The opinions addressed by Jordan Berman

15:40

are not the opinions of Robbie and Ellen Salveikis. They are

15:42

actually my opinion though. Yeah, I agree. But

15:44

I'm old. I thought I was just too old for it. I'm like,

15:46

I don't get it because my 15-year-old gets it. Like why? I

15:49

understand what you're saying. She is talented. You

15:51

know what I love? I love that she

15:53

is just kind of a fucking feminist and

15:55

doesn't give a shit. She's like, you're going

15:57

to fucking over-profit her, write a song about

15:59

her. No, she's a badass. She don't get

16:01

me wrong. She's a badass and I love that ass

16:04

It's like I you know Sometimes I like to think

16:06

of myself as one like I love women that give

16:08

off that energy right, but I just think that Here's

16:11

my question for Taylor Swift And I feel like a

16:13

lot of young artists these days because my daughter keeps

16:16

telling me about like Drake and some I don't know

16:18

Some people it would be like Kendrick Lamar. Okay. Okay

16:20

So all that seems to be happening is these young

16:22

artists keep writing about People they've

16:24

dated and people they have fights with and I'm like, can

16:26

you not make music that has nothing to do with like

16:29

Why is every song related to somebody you dated

16:31

like I don't understand what happened to islands

16:33

in the stream. Thank you Speaking

16:39

of that I just went to Kenny Chesney's

16:41

concert last night and it was exactly what

16:43

you just said Like I felt like I

16:45

was on an island the whole time It

16:47

was just beachy peaceful vibes. Everything's gonna be

16:49

alright vibes and I'm like, this is nice.

16:51

This is nice Somebody go dig up the

16:53

carcass of Jimmy Buffett and bring him back.

16:55

Let's sing about margaritas What is every song

16:57

have to be about a past beef? I

16:59

guess is what I'm like a grievance

17:02

so for our third question Jordan, we

17:04

ask all of our guests How does

17:06

true crime fit into your life? Well,

17:09

I am a dateline girl State

17:15

with Dateline Kim and Katie they have an

17:17

amazing dateline podcast really Yeah, so fun talks

17:19

about me. I I think as a podcaster,

17:22

I don't listen to a lot of podcasts.

17:24

So that's that's really that yeah But I

17:26

will say so Dateline love it always had

17:29

me and my dad used to watch

17:31

it together all the time but fun fact

17:33

also when I first started my podcast and

17:35

I didn't really have a Straight

17:38

path forward. I didn't really know what I was

17:40

doing. I was doing two episodes a week One

17:42

was about the law and the other was about

17:44

true crime. Okay What's your current sort of case

17:46

that you kind of always are dipping into and

17:49

checking in on besides this obscure case that you've

17:51

chosen? The Brian Coe Burger situation

17:53

probably I think because it's it's so

17:55

current, you know. I'm just like trying

17:57

to figure out what's going on this week.

18:00

Then you know that the got a guy

18:02

soon as you have a deeper dive into

18:04

that because I'm a my kids I feel

18:06

in the some strong innocence actors like Tom

18:08

and up a matter know a little confused.

18:10

Yeah we talked about it on our part

18:12

them crime with his phone stuff but I

18:14

love that I love that. Your ad Dateline

18:17

fan We love Dateline over here so we're

18:19

going to give you the crash course for

18:21

the episode today. but before we do Jordan

18:23

will you just introduce this case that all

18:25

of our listeners are to? I think they're

18:27

going to be blown away on iphone. Every

18:33

new. Which

18:36

acts as a collective lasting memory

18:38

in our brains. These are historic

18:41

events that everyone remembers along with

18:43

exactly where they were and what

18:45

they were doing when they heard

18:47

about. Sad event will notice moments.

18:50

That are universally felt among

18:52

people. I just learned these

18:54

are called flashbulb memories because they're

18:56

events that are so powerful impact

18:58

for that. The of fact is

19:00

is the were flashbulb off in

19:02

our minds. they're typically very vivid

19:04

and details in spending a mental

19:06

image like a picture that your

19:09

form and then associate with that

19:11

particular event. I'd never heard this

19:13

phase. Of research in this case, but it

19:15

really. Does make sense, Does not all

19:17

of the berlin. Wall. Space

19:22

Shuttle Challenger to. Has.

19:26

Insisted on the moon, maybe

19:28

even the death of a

19:30

musical icon. And many people

19:32

now have a flashbulb. Memories

19:34

of the surreal day of

19:36

June. Seventeen, Nineteen Ninety. Five

19:43

freeway. Loving.

19:45

about twenty or so miles an hour

19:47

for driver of the vehicle was on

19:50

a cellular phone we believe the passengers

19:52

oj simpson says what we've heard on

19:54

the orange county frequencies and right now

19:56

we're a bit about a thousand troops

19:59

and they are attempting to pull the

20:01

vehicle over. They've made contact via cellular

20:03

phone, also on a public address system.

20:05

Unfortunately, at this time, it does not

20:07

appear as though the driver is slowing

20:09

down or complying with the orders of

20:11

the officers. Go ahead. Perhaps one of

20:13

the reasons that they are not taking

20:15

any more aggressive action than moving in

20:17

on that car. We are told right

20:19

now that O.J. sitting there in the

20:21

passenger seat with a gun pointed at

20:23

his own head. Having heard

20:25

O.J. on TV quite a bit and so forth,

20:27

he was somewhat slurred. His voice was slurred, almost

20:30

like he was on drugs or something. He was talking,

20:32

but it wasn't clear.

20:36

Well, his doctors have said that he's been under

20:38

sedation since. And he may be well taken, you

20:40

know, the pills, but I mean, he doesn't sound

20:42

irrational, but he convinced me on the phone that

20:45

he's not playing games. After that day,

20:47

we would never think of a white Ford Bronco

20:49

the same. At about 6.45 p.m.

20:52

in L.A., Al Cowlings, O.J.

20:54

Simpson's best friend and former

20:56

teammate, led authorities on a

20:59

60-mile, two-hour low-speed chase. O.J.

21:01

Simpson was riding in the back, and he reportedly

21:03

had a gun to his head. A

21:06

cavalcade of police cars followed in a

21:08

slow pursuit, while TV helicopters swooped in

21:10

to capture this historic event. Did you

21:13

watch it? Yeah, well, so

21:15

did 95 million others.

21:18

Simpson and Cowlings eventually made their

21:20

way back to Simpson's mansion in L.A.'s

21:22

Brentwood neighborhood later that night, and

21:25

negotiations with police started. Then, just

21:27

before 9 p.m., O.J.

21:30

Simpson surrendered, watching a family

21:32

photo. He was arrested and jailed.

21:35

But how did we get here? Let's

21:37

go back. O.J. Simpson was born

21:39

Oranthal James Simpson on July 9, 1947, in

21:41

San Francisco, California. O.J.

21:45

Simpson's football career began to take shape

21:47

during his high school years at Galileo

21:49

High School, where he graduated in 1965.

21:52

From an early age, he excelled as

21:54

a running back. His remarkable speed, agility

21:56

and vision on the football field set

21:59

him apart from his teammates. and easily

22:01

attracted the attention of college recruiters. Simpson

22:03

received a scholarship to play football at

22:05

the University of Southern California. Simpson quickly

22:07

made a name for himself as one

22:09

of the most electrifying running backs in

22:11

college football. In 1967, Simpson rushed for

22:14

1,543 yards and 13 touchdowns, leading

22:20

the nation in rushing yards and earning

22:22

all-American honors. His standout performance on

22:24

the field helped propel USC to

22:27

a Rose Bowl victory and solidified

22:29

his status as a top prospect

22:31

for the NFL. After winning

22:33

the Heisman Trophy in 1968, he

22:35

was awarded the most outstanding player in

22:37

all of college football. Simpson's

22:39

Heisman Trophy win marked a significant milestone

22:42

in his career and cemented his legacy

22:44

as one of the greatest college football

22:46

players of all time. During this

22:48

time, he married his high school girlfriend, Marguerite

22:51

Whitley. Throughout their marriage, which lasted

22:53

roughly 12 years, the couple welcomed

22:55

three children together, Arnell, Jason, and

22:57

Aaron. Sadly, their second daughter, Aaron,

22:59

died in a drowning accident when

23:01

she was nearly two years old.

23:03

After his stellar college career, Simpson

23:06

entered the NFL draft in 1969 and

23:09

was selected as the first overall pick by

23:11

the Buffalo Bills and was one of the

23:13

highest-paid players in the league at the time.

23:15

Simpson's transition to the NFL was seamless, and

23:19

he continued to showcase his exceptional talent on the

23:21

field. In his rookie season, he rushed for 697

23:23

yards and scored five touchdowns, earning

23:27

him the NFL Rookie of the Year Award.

23:29

Over the course of his NFL career,

23:31

Simpson established himself as one of the

23:33

premier running backs in the league. He

23:36

possessed a rare combination of speed, power,

23:38

and elusiveness that made him nearly unstoppable

23:40

on the field. His triumphs on the

23:42

field and awards were something that helped

23:45

him become a cultural icon and a

23:47

household name. His success on the

23:49

football field, combined with his charismatic personality

23:51

and media presence, propelled him to fame

23:54

beyond the world of sports. He appeared

23:56

in commercials, movies, and television shows, further

23:58

solidifying his status as a coach. a pop culture

24:00

icon. As we know, to most people

24:03

around the world, none of these titles

24:05

or accolades will be what he was

24:07

remembered for. O.J. Simpson reportedly

24:09

met Nicole Brown Simpson while he was

24:11

still married to his first wife. The

24:14

then 18-year-old was working at a Beverly

24:16

Hills nightclub when they became acquainted. Not

24:19

long after, Simpson and Whitley divorced in 1979.

24:21

Nicole was described as a bright, smart,

24:25

and funny girl, and most importantly,

24:28

unfazed by O.J. being a football

24:30

star because she didn't follow sports.

24:32

But the two fell in love almost immediately.

24:35

O.J. Simpson and Nicole Brown exchanged vows

24:38

in a lavish ceremony on February 2,

24:40

1985 at their

24:42

home in Bentwood. The wedding

24:44

was attended by numerous celebrities and sports

24:46

figures, reflecting O.J.'s status

24:48

as one of the most recognizable

24:51

and beloved figures in American culture

24:53

at the time. The couple's marriage

24:55

appeared picture-perfect from the outside. With

24:59

O.J. enjoying success as a football

25:01

commentator, actor, and pitchman, while Nicole

25:03

emblazed her role as a socialite

25:05

and devoted mother to their two

25:07

children, Sydney and Justin. However,

25:10

behind a facade of their glamorous

25:12

lifestyle, cracks began to emerge in

25:14

their relationship. Reports of O.J.'s infidelity

25:16

and abusive behavior towards Nicole surfaced,

25:19

creating a troubled and tumultuous dynamic

25:21

behind closed doors. Nicole Brown

25:24

documented 17 years of

25:26

abused claims at the hands of O.J. Simpson,

25:28

according to her diary. Personal accounts of at

25:30

least 60 beatings were later

25:32

recovered, with Brown claiming that she was

25:34

first physically assaulted by O.J. back in

25:36

1978. Seven

25:38

years after they said I do, Nicole Brown

25:40

filed for divorce from O.J. Simpson in 1992,

25:44

citing irreconcilable differences. The highly publicized

25:46

divorce proceedings shed light on the

25:48

abusive nature of their relationship, with

25:51

Nicole alleging instances of domestic violence

25:53

and O.J. denying any wrongdoing. Nicole

25:55

Brown had called 911 Multiple

25:57

times while living with O.J. Simpson, but little the

26:00

would ever done about her numerous. Claims of

26:02

domestic abuse? My own emergency? maybe?

26:04

I went over here now. three

26:06

to five Gretna green hair back

26:08

to okay, what a female. Com

26:10

your own to implement. I think you know

26:12

his record in Cook County over a what

26:15

is he doing there. Needs

26:17

to bump into somebody

26:19

on would behalf. With

26:22

our group without the without. Any

26:25

what's your name? According

26:28

to police reports rounds you didn't the

26:30

bushes outside her and since from summer

26:32

home in Nineteen Eighty Nine while she

26:34

begged officers to do something about the

26:36

football. Stars pattern of violent behavior.

26:39

Like many women who are victims of

26:41

domestic violence, nothing was done to protect

26:43

Nepal that night or any other night.

26:45

She. Tried seeking help at a battered

26:48

women's shelter. she called the Santa Monica

26:50

Center to complain about her husband's. Alleged

26:52

stockings. But. Just

26:55

as a days later was June

26:57

Twelfth nineteen and for the events

26:59

of that evening would be the

27:01

center of one of the most

27:03

highly publicized criminal trials in American

27:05

history. On that night, Nicole and

27:07

her mother, along with her ex

27:09

husband Oj, had attended her daughter

27:11

Sydney's dance recital. After the recital,

27:14

the family dined at Mezzaluna, a

27:16

restaurant where Ron Goldman worked as

27:18

a waiter. They left the restaurant

27:20

some time around nine Pm. What

27:22

exactly transpired. And Nicole Brown. Simpson's

27:24

residents were the murders occurred remains

27:26

the subject of speculation and controversy.

27:29

However, based on evidence presented during the subsequent

27:31

trial, here is a detailed account of what

27:33

is believed to have happened. The call returned

27:35

to the home that she had been living

27:37

in since her divorce from O J. Simpson.

27:39

At some point it was discovered that the

27:41

cause mother forgot her glasses at the restaurant

27:43

and Ron Goldman reportedly drop by the home

27:46

to return them. He may have walked into

27:48

the It's Had that. Was already underway against

27:50

brown sensors around ten. Forty five pm

27:52

to eleven pm is speculated that Nicole

27:54

and one were confronted. outside the cause

27:56

home by an assailant or salem's as it

27:59

shows that they attacked in the front

28:01

gate of the property. The crime scene

28:03

was unspeakably gruesome. Nicole had

28:05

been stabbed 12 times and the

28:07

wound across her neck was so deep that

28:10

she was almost decapitated. As

28:12

for Goldman, he had been stabbed 25 times.

28:17

Other wounds on his body would

28:19

indicate a brutal and violent struggle.

28:21

The murder weapon, later identified as

28:23

a knife, was never definitively

28:26

recovered. The bodies of

28:28

Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman were

28:31

discovered shortly after midnight on June 13,

28:33

1994 by a neighbor who was walking

28:35

her dog. The neighbor initially

28:37

mistook Nicole's dog for a stray,

28:40

which was found wandering outside the

28:42

residence, leading the neighbor to investigate

28:44

further. The bodies were lying

28:46

in pools of blood near the front steps

28:49

of the townhouse. Husband O.J. was already en

28:51

route to Chicago. He was scheduled on a

28:53

flight departing L.A. at 11.45 p.m.

28:55

that night. Now, Simpson had been driven to the

28:57

airport by his chauffeur, Alan Park, who

28:59

would go on to serve as possibly the

29:02

most valuable witness of the prosecution at trial.

29:04

And here's why. Because after he reached Simpson's

29:06

house that evening at 10.25

29:08

p.m. to pick him up, he couldn't get a

29:11

hold of him. Finally, following several attempts to reach

29:13

Simpson, Simpson finally showed up, put a bag in

29:15

his limousine, and they headed for the airport at

29:17

11.15 p.m. In the early

29:19

hours of Monday the 13th, Simpson

29:21

received a fateful call at the

29:23

O'Hare Plaza Hotel in Chicago, and he

29:26

was informed of his wife's tragic demise.

29:28

Simpson's reaction was marked by shock,

29:30

yet devoid of inquiries into the

29:33

specifics of her death, which is kind of weird,

29:35

right? Instead, he allegedly vented

29:37

his anguish by shattering a glass,

29:39

resulting in a laceration to his

29:41

left hand, a wound that would later

29:44

be scrutinized by prosecutors. bloodstains

30:00

were marked with cardboard tags on

30:02

the driveway, signifying the commencement of

30:05

a full-scale investigation into the double

30:07

homicide. The trial of O.J.

30:09

Simpson began on January 24, 1995, and it lasted for nearly

30:11

nine months. It

30:16

was a nonstop, circus-like atmosphere

30:18

with countless millions of

30:21

eyes peering into the courtroom

30:25

on a global scale daily.

30:28

The prosecution, led by Marsha Clark

30:30

and Christopher Darden, argued that Simpson

30:33

had motive, means, and the

30:35

opportunity to commit the murders. The

30:37

defense, led by Johnny Cochran,

30:39

Robert Shapiro, and Efley Bailey,

30:41

employed various strategies including raising

30:43

doubts about the integrity of

30:45

the evidence and accusing the

30:47

LAPD of mishandling the

30:50

investigation. Much like the games he

30:52

once played, O.J.'s trial

30:54

was action-packed, filled with

30:56

dramatic courtroom theatrics coupled

30:58

with over-the-top legal strategies,

31:00

including the use of

31:02

language gymnastics such as the

31:04

defense team asking Judge Lance

31:07

Edo to order the prosecution

31:09

to say it's domestic discord

31:11

rather than domestic violence or

31:14

even spousal abuse. Whatever

31:16

makes you sleep better, fellas. From

31:19

the impassioned arguments of the

31:21

defense attorney, of defense attorney

31:23

Johnny Cochran, to the controversial

31:25

tactics employed by the prosecution,

31:27

the trial often resembled a

31:29

scripted drama rather than a

31:31

solemn quest for truth. We

31:33

would need a whole 12-part

31:35

series podcast dedicated solely to

31:38

unpacking the courtroom alone. Safe

31:40

to say, it was unlike anything

31:43

courtroom lawyers had ever seen. A

31:46

judge and attorney who became media darlings

31:48

and villains, a bewildered house

31:50

guest elevated freely into slightly

31:52

odd celebrity status, but after

31:54

133 days of televised courtroom

31:58

testimony, on October 3rd, 1995

32:02

after deliberating for less than four

32:05

hours, the jury reached a

32:07

verdict. Superior Court of California, County of

32:09

Los Angeles, in the matter of the people

32:12

of the state of California versus Orandall James

32:14

Simpson, case number VA097211, we the jury in

32:19

the embarrassing title action found the

32:21

defendant, Orandall James Simpson, not guilty

32:23

of the crime of murder in

32:25

violation of Penal Code Section 187A,

32:28

a felony upon Nicole Brown Simpson, a human

32:30

being, as charged in count one of

32:32

the information. Superior

32:39

Court of the State of California, County of

32:41

Los Angeles, in the matter of the people

32:43

of the state of California versus Orandall James

32:45

Simpson, we the jury in the embarrassing title

32:47

action found the defendant, Orandall James Simpson,

32:49

not guilty of the crime of murder

32:51

in violation of Penal Code Section 187A,

32:53

a felony upon Ronald

32:55

Lyle Goldman, a human being, as charged in

32:57

count two of the information. And just like

33:00

that, the Simpson case changed journalism in

33:02

ways this generation might not even realize.

33:04

Beyond its legal significance, the O.J.

33:06

Simpson trial transcended into cultural phenomena.

33:08

For those who lived through that period, it's

33:11

hard to remember much in the public sphere

33:13

that wasn't all O.J. all the time. The

33:15

sensational storyline and its many components, including

33:18

the subsequent civil trial that found Simpson

33:20

liable for the deaths, would be debated

33:22

and talked about for years to come.

33:25

One newspaper even ran a series of

33:27

possible endings to the storyline written by

33:29

mystery novelists. Sure, people were saying different

33:31

things about what may or may not

33:33

have happened, but it was, in arguably,

33:35

a national conversation. And with the death

33:37

of O.J. on April 10th of this

33:39

year, it still is. Many people

33:41

speculate the Simpson trial was affected by

33:43

its proximity to Rodney King at a

33:45

time when L.A. suffered as a result of

33:48

the collapse in law enforcement confidence there. There

33:50

is no confusion as to the power of this case

33:53

to captivate the public's attention, and it

33:55

also raised questions about race, celebrity, and

33:57

the criminal justice system in America. cases

34:00

we've covered, we commonly referred to it as the

34:02

OJ Simpson trial, not the murder of

34:04

Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, because

34:07

at the center of this storm, there is little

34:09

doubt as to who killed two innocent people that

34:11

night. Or is there? Let's

34:13

talk about it. Jordan, can I ask

34:15

you, I mean, I don't want to date you, but these

34:17

murders took place before you were born, right? That

34:20

was my thought. The murder? No. Okay. So how

34:22

old were you? Go ahead. Go ahead. How old

34:24

do you think I

34:26

am? I think you're 24. You know. I think you're 32.

34:28

Okay. So I'm 30, right in the middle of you

34:32

guys. So to answer the question, I was born, however, I was a

34:34

year and a half years old. A

34:38

wee baby. I'm going to go with you

34:40

now. So what is your fascination with the

34:42

case other than the fact that he just

34:44

died and nobody cared? Ouch. What are

34:46

your thoughts? I don't give opinions,

34:48

right? But I am today. I'm

34:51

going to give opinions today about

34:53

this case. I am so

34:55

fascinated by so much.

34:57

There's so much it's hard to wrap it to one

35:00

thing. I think one of the components that really fascinates

35:02

me is the fact that he was acquitted, yet he

35:04

was found liable for wrongful death. And obviously we can

35:06

talk about all of that and how the, you know,

35:08

standards of proof are different and all that stuff. So

35:10

we'll dive into that. But I just think it's so

35:13

fascinating. And then like the book that came out after

35:15

and I just feel like there's just

35:17

so much there yet at the same

35:19

time, there's enough doubt. You know what

35:21

I mean? I don't know. I just,

35:23

the whole thing fascinates me. This is

35:25

a question for people who were alive

35:27

back then. And of course you

35:29

can weigh in and our star witnesses who are

35:31

here with us live and Rabia, something that I

35:33

look back on is, and listen, I'm

35:36

not going to get all on

35:38

my feminist high horse, but looking

35:40

back all these years later, the

35:43

way Marsha Clark was dragged through

35:45

the media, we all know this became

35:47

a media circus, which if you were

35:49

back then doing the thing you do,

35:51

Jordan, which is reporting in a very

35:54

nonpartisan way, how could you? There were

35:56

villains. It was like a TV show.

35:58

Have you gone back? and watched

36:00

any of that footage of the courtroom.

36:02

Every day they would talk about what

36:05

Marcia Clark was wearing. That was something

36:07

I didn't really note her hair. You

36:09

know she never practiced law again. Oh,

36:12

I didn't know that. But here's the thing. I

36:14

think I could do it only because it's what

36:16

I do. I'm just good at. I can take the

36:19

emotion out of a lot. I go then to my

36:21

husband, right? There's things that I go and... But when

36:23

I'm talking about the news, I'm totally fan-taking the emotion

36:25

out of it. I think I could have done it.

36:27

But one thing is that you're always going to be

36:30

picked apart. It's so funny and I talk about this

36:32

with my followers because when I started this platform, I

36:34

thought being unbiased, I was like, no one's ever going

36:36

to come for me. How could anyone? I'm not giving

36:38

my opinions. There's no one to get mad at me.

36:41

People get mad if you do not express your

36:43

opinions. They're like, we need you to take a

36:45

stand on something. And like they'll take your words

36:47

and twist them and be like, oh, so you're

36:49

supporting this and I'm like, no, that's not what

36:51

I said. So I get why she was so

36:54

dragged just because I think anyone that was involved

36:56

at all in that case would have been. You

36:58

know what I mean? I just think that and

37:00

I can look at both of you, Rabia, you

37:02

are a brown person, you're

37:04

Muslim, you're very, you know, have

37:07

liberal views. Jordan, you're like a

37:09

beautiful stereotypical blonde. But you know

37:11

what I mean? I'm sure you

37:13

face some kind of like weird

37:15

stuff about that on. Beautiful women

37:17

aren't smart, right? It was just

37:19

wild because this was such a

37:21

serious case and they were dragging

37:23

this woman for like her bad

37:25

perm and how short her skirts

37:27

were like that was something again,

37:30

looking back that was never talked

37:32

about. And just the sheer big

37:34

top antics of the overall trial.

37:36

But that still happens. I can

37:38

be talking about the most serious

37:40

topic and people will point out

37:43

that my lips are uneven or

37:45

my voice sounds

37:47

weird or my hair is too like

37:49

it doesn't matter. People will always find

37:51

something to criticize you for. I have

37:54

to say though, I might have been

37:56

the only one who was an actual almost an

37:58

adult. I was an adult. I was an adult. time.

38:00

And I remember that it wasn't just

38:02

Marsha. I mean, Marsha Clarke had the

38:04

analysis about Marsha was mostly about her

38:07

looks. But every single person in this

38:09

case was a character. America wasn't quite

38:11

used to like watching these kind of

38:13

courtroom dramas in real time from the judge

38:15

who was just loving it and playing up

38:17

to the camera to I mean, the Cochran

38:19

to Kato, Kaylin, what's that? What's the name?

38:22

Kato, Kaylin, what is the name? Kato, Kaylin,

38:24

yeah. I mean, everybody was unreal, larger than

38:26

life, eccentric, weird, I mean, the racist cop.

38:28

I mean, like, there was this fascination with

38:30

every single person because they did not seem

38:32

like real people. None of it seemed real.

38:34

It all seemed like the staged drama on

38:36

TV, easier. And I really do blame the

38:39

judge, by the way, for turning. It was

38:41

a circus. He allowed it to be a

38:43

circus. And I hate to keep bringing it

38:45

back to modern day just because I wasn't alive

38:47

then, as you know, as we've said, but you

38:50

know, think about the Johnny Depp Amber Heard trial,

38:52

like same thing. As I said, I don't I

38:54

don't mean to keep bringing it back to modern

38:56

day, but people had a hard time humanizing them

38:58

because of just the nature

39:01

of the case and who they were. And I just

39:03

think that's natural in those situations. And you're right. I

39:05

mean, it was the Johnny Cochran and all of the

39:07

little takes, you know, if

39:09

it doesn't fit, you must acquit. It

39:12

wasn't real. And you're right. And I

39:14

think that it loses the respect for

39:16

Nicole and Ron's life because you

39:18

are forgetting that two people lost

39:20

their life. It became the sensational

39:22

case of this fallen American hero

39:24

that everyone wanted to rent a

39:26

car from and buy dominoes from.

39:28

You know, he was on movies,

39:30

he was on TV. He was

39:32

practically a household name. And what

39:35

got lost in the whole narrative

39:37

were children that lost their mother

39:39

and a family that lost their

39:41

young son. And it became Judge

39:43

Edo and it became Cato Kalan

39:45

and Marsha Clark and Johnny Cochran.

39:47

And it's like, are we forgetting

39:49

that this was a gruesome murder?

39:51

Again, we can also talk about,

39:53

you know, the proximity to the

39:55

Rodney King verdict and what happened

39:57

there. And I know everyone was involved. I

40:00

mean, I think it was 95 million

40:02

people watched the Bronco chase or something. I'll never

40:04

forget that. And that was the end. Ellen, do

40:06

you remember? How were you at the time? As

40:09

we said in the Crash Course, it's one of

40:11

those flashbulb moments. Those moments you remember where you

40:13

were when you were watching it. People

40:16

turned it on in school. At the

40:19

foundation, we're losing the loss

40:21

of life. And I think that

40:23

is, to this day, it's lost. Actually,

40:25

if we really want to get down to

40:27

brass tacks, it's really Ron Goldman because people

40:30

really say, you know, OJ killed his

40:32

wife. Also, Ron Goldman was there too.

40:34

You know, it's really sad. I'm all

40:36

for like transparency in the courtroom. I

40:38

really believe that, you know, the public should

40:40

be able to watch what happens in a courtroom,

40:42

see how the criminal justice system unfolds. But I

40:45

also firmly believe that any time a trial

40:47

is televised live, it is impossible not to

40:49

have an impact on what's happening in the

40:51

courtroom. And I think that the higher profile

40:53

the people involved, the defendants, the victims, the

40:56

more it needs to be kept out of the public. Take

40:58

the footage available later, like release like the trial

41:00

footage later of the audio and video. But

41:02

as the trial is ongoing, I think

41:04

this would have been a very different

41:07

kind of trial if it had not

41:09

been televised live. How do you feel

41:11

about televising trials in general, Jordan? Where

41:13

do you stand on that? Well, it's

41:15

funny, I was just about to say

41:17

that, and again, I'm going to bring

41:19

it back again to the Johnny Depp

41:21

Amber Heard trial, but I really think

41:23

that social media played a part in

41:25

that trial. It was impossible for that

41:27

jury to not have seen something. It

41:30

was all over. I agree with Robia.

41:32

There's I do believe in transparency in the courtroom. I

41:34

do. I think it's important

41:36

that people are able to see that.

41:38

But there are certain really high profile

41:40

cases that it's probably best to keep

41:42

the integrity of the criminal.

41:44

I don't know. I honestly,

41:46

I can make arguments on both sides. Everybody in

41:49

the courtroom becomes a performer. I feel like they're

41:51

playing to the camera from the judge to the

41:53

prosecutors and defense. If they

41:55

don't fit, you gotta quit. I feel like

41:57

that line never would have even taken place.

42:00

He would never have said if it wasn't for the fact

42:02

there were cameras capturing it live. You know what I mean?

42:04

It was all performance. Yeah, you know, he thought of it

42:06

the night before he's like He

42:10

was like, you know googling Tupac lyrics

42:13

he's like, let me see Yeah, so

42:15

something I do want to talk about

42:17

something I mentioned in the crash course

42:20

Is there any other argument for anyone

42:22

else? Is there a shred of doubt

42:24

that? Of doubt that OJ did it

42:26

so one big thing that I

42:29

want to talk about one theory

42:31

that has Specifically circulated on tick-tock.

42:33

It sort of had a resurgence

42:35

It was mentioned many years ago

42:37

and then a big kind of

42:39

wave of social media I think

42:41

it was maybe a year or

42:44

two ago came and that was

42:46

the idea that OJ's son

42:48

from his first marriage Jason

42:51

Simpson actually committed the murders and OJ

42:53

was covering for him the whole time

42:55

Now that's this is what we do

42:58

on this show. We talk about all

43:00

the possibilities So do you know anything about

43:02

this theory? Have you looked into it? I

43:05

know the theory. I don't know the evidence

43:07

that supports it So let's just let's talk

43:09

about it. So this is a very popular

43:12

Alternate theory that actually his

43:14

son Jason killed Nicole and Ron

43:17

So let me just give you

43:19

all at home just a

43:21

couple of little bullet points

43:23

Jason was diagnosed with intermittent rage

43:26

disorder, which is otherwise known as

43:28

Jekyll and Hyde syndrome Which

43:30

is really fired up rage that can

43:32

come out in the you know, the

43:34

blink of an eye It can also

43:37

be coupled with seizures. He also abused

43:40

alcohol drugs Everything from cocaine to

43:42

ecstasy as early as 14 years

43:45

old. He also had a couple of

43:47

arrests He had a DUI driving with

43:49

a suspended license a assault with a

43:51

deadly weapon and that was actually to

43:53

a girlfriend With a

43:56

knife medical records would reveal

43:58

at least three attempts

44:00

at suicide. So going back a

44:07

little bit of time, I'm going to talk about the murder

44:14

of a woman in a room because he heard

44:16

voices and these voices were sending him into a

44:18

rage, sort of exacerbating his condition. Around this time

44:20

he ran out of the

44:22

murder. He had stopped taking

44:25

this medication that would control

44:27

his symptoms, control his bits

44:30

of rage and he had violence

44:32

in his past as I told

44:34

you. He almost killed his previous

44:37

girlfriend and he injured another with

44:39

a knife. Let me

44:41

just take you to the Night of

44:43

the Murders. Jason was a chef the

44:46

night of the murders. He was actually

44:48

expecting the family to come and dine

44:50

at the restaurant that he was working

44:52

at. But Nicole chose another restaurant. Now

44:54

it's unclear as to whether or not

44:57

she gave Jason a heads up that

44:59

hey plans have changed were actually not coming

45:01

to your restaurant. Jason has

45:03

no alibi for the Night of the

45:05

Murders. So he worked until he finished

45:07

his shift and then he no alibi

45:09

after that? No alibi after 9.50 p.m.

45:13

but he lied about his alibi. The first

45:15

time he was questioned he said he was

45:17

with his girlfriend and his girlfriend was like

45:20

nope he wasn't with me. Then it was

45:22

said that he was working and he was

45:24

like here look at my time card. Only

45:26

the time card had written in numbers and

45:28

the time card was written in

45:30

numbers. And the punching

45:33

machine the time card machine was

45:35

working and everybody else had a

45:37

punched time that night. So his

45:40

time was handwritten. Some other interesting

45:42

facts the black navy watch cap

45:44

that was found at the crime

45:47

scene that did contain hairs that

45:49

were similar to OJ's. It was

45:51

African American hair fibers. It didn't

45:53

perfectly match OJ's but it also

45:56

had animal hair on it. Dog

45:58

hair specifically OJ's. OJ didn't have

46:00

a dog, but Jason did. And

46:02

they also got photographs from Jason's

46:04

house that showed him wearing a

46:06

very similar cap to the one

46:08

that was obtained from the crime

46:10

scene. The day after the murders,

46:13

OJ hired attorney Carl Jones

46:15

to represent Jason. Jason was

46:18

an attorney. Hired an

46:20

attorney. Didn't hire attorney for himself yet.

46:22

Oh, interesting. But hired an attorney for

46:24

his son. Do we know what the

46:26

attorney was hired for? Because I know

46:28

Jason had these previous issues. But

46:30

I'm thinking the day after the

46:33

murder, that seems pretty, he ain't

46:35

thinking about, yeah, he ain't thinking

46:37

about things at the same time.

46:39

One more thing, a lot of

46:41

his ex-classmates said that they saw

46:44

this temper of his, and he

46:46

was trained in field knife training

46:48

when he was attending the Army

46:50

and the Naval Academy. It's a

46:52

compelling argument, and the idea being

46:55

that he had rage control issues,

46:57

he had used a knife before.

46:59

What are your thoughts on

47:01

this sort of side storyline? I

47:03

think as you said, I can

47:05

definitely see a compelling argument made

47:07

there. I think though, when you

47:09

look at other evidence, like that

47:11

by itself, yeah, you can look

47:13

at it and you can say,

47:16

okay, this definitely is suspicious, and

47:18

it may be. But when you

47:20

take the other evidence, such as

47:22

Nicole Brown Simpson's sock being in

47:24

OJ's room and the blood being

47:26

on OJ's property and in the

47:28

Bronco and the car chase and

47:30

all those other things, the car

47:33

chase was said, now this is

47:35

just throwing it out there, was

47:37

said to be done to put

47:40

the attention on him and off

47:42

of Jason. So that's the working

47:44

theory of the car

47:47

chase because then once they put

47:49

their sights on OJ, Jason was

47:51

never questioned again. He was never

47:54

given a proper investigation, not even

47:56

a real interview at all. They

47:59

were like, oh, cool. you don't have an alibi, that's fine. Your

48:02

dad did it. They didn't even look

48:04

to him. Sort of like what we

48:06

talk about Peterson once they had their

48:08

guy, they just had tunnel vision as

48:10

to OJ. Now, before you all get

48:12

those panties all bunched up into your

48:14

butt crack, I am just posing an

48:17

alternate theory. That exists. That exists. And

48:19

I'm saying it exists, so let's talk

48:21

about it. Okay. Let me ask

48:23

you. So, you know, there is a private

48:25

investigator, right, who has been public and says that he's

48:27

positive. There are people who

48:29

are doubling down. It doesn't mean that the theory

48:31

excludes OJ's involvement in some way, that he might

48:33

still be at the crime scene, he might, you

48:36

know, he was part of the cover up, he

48:38

was protecting his son. My question

48:40

is about that hat. Did anybody ever come forward

48:42

like a family and be like, oh no, that

48:44

was Nicole's hat and that hair was like her

48:46

dog's and I mean, you know, and she's around

48:49

Jason, Jason's. Do you know what the hat look

48:51

like? I'm going to be a little girly here.

48:53

It looked like a dude sort of skull cap.

48:55

It didn't look like a woman's hat. It's very

48:57

not PC of me to say. It looked like

49:00

one of those sort of Navy caps. If you

49:02

were to dress up like a robber. Authorities

49:05

never identified who that hat belonged to.

49:07

No. And they just said

49:09

that the hairs were consistent with OJ. It

49:12

was African American hair. What's the proof that

49:14

it's Jason's hat, just that the picture showed

49:16

him wearing it? It was the picture showed

49:18

him wearing it. It had dog hair on

49:20

it. That was I think the big thing

49:23

that OJ didn't have a dog. But Nicole

49:25

did have a dog. Did Jason have a

49:27

dog? Nicole did have a dog

49:29

but Jason had a dog. But

49:31

the dog found the bodies.

49:34

And so who's to say the dog wasn't

49:36

tracing around the privacy? That

49:39

dog had bloody paws. That dog was all over the privacy. Yeah.

49:41

That poor dog. That dog saw some shit.

49:43

I know. So, but

49:46

my thought is what if it's OJ's

49:48

hat and the one day Jason was

49:50

wearing it and he got photographed in

49:52

it. You know what I mean? Yeah.

49:55

Or they got more than one. I mean like you know like maybe

49:57

they both have the same but Jason's a big dude too. You know

49:59

what I mean? if he has these rage

50:01

control issues and has had incidents.

50:03

It was nice before and all this. It's

50:05

not like OJ didn't. OJ also had a

50:07

history of hurting people physically, including his, yeah,

50:10

his spouses. Oh yeah, we'll get

50:12

into that for sure. Anything like the

50:14

things that connect OJ to the crime are physical

50:17

evidence. The things that connect, that might

50:19

connect Jason seem much more tenuous. It

50:21

seems much more circumstantial, that he fits

50:24

a certain profile. But OJ fits that

50:26

same profile is the problem. Let me

50:28

pose this question to you because the

50:30

thing, there are a couple things that

50:33

are very compelling. Number one, the handwritten

50:35

timestamp. Number two, the lying about his

50:37

alibi, having no alibi. So there are

50:39

things that are curious, right? This isn't

50:41

one of those things that it's like

50:43

you are in left field. Do you

50:45

think that they both could have been

50:47

involved? And OJ was just like, I'm

50:49

gonna go on trial. I'm not even

50:51

gonna mention Jason's name. The prosecution stood

50:53

by it was one assailant, was one

50:55

person, but the defense really says it

50:58

had to have been more than one

51:00

person. So is there any space in

51:02

our brains to say that there is

51:04

a possibility that Jason could have helped

51:06

OJ? I think so. But here's my question.

51:08

And correct me if

51:10

I'm wrong on this, but from what

51:12

I've heard, all of the reporting surrounding

51:15

that night says that two kids were

51:17

home at the time of the murders.

51:19

Is that correct? And is Jason's one

51:21

of those kids? Yeah. Oh no, I'm

51:23

sorry. No, Jason was from his first

51:25

marriage. Okay, okay, okay. He's an adult.

51:27

He was a chef. So he had

51:29

three kids, as we said in the

51:31

crash course, one of them passed. So

51:34

he had adult children with his first

51:36

wife, Marguerite. Okay. Sydney and Justin were

51:38

the little ones with Nicole. That's a great question.

51:40

Sorry, I didn't make that clear. No, no, no,

51:42

it's okay. That was my assumption wrong. Yeah, I

51:44

do think there's a world in which that argument

51:47

could be made. I mean, it's a dad. Like

51:49

I don't, I mean, you have unconditional love for

51:51

your parents, right? And if your dad enlists you

51:53

for something or whatever, like I could see it

51:55

happening. I feel like I need more details. I

51:58

need to know how far was Jason's. restaurant.

52:00

You know what I mean? Like how would he

52:02

have coordinated with his dad to do this? I

52:04

just feel like to me if both of them

52:06

did it, it had to be somehow premeditated. I

52:09

mean like that they had planned that together. But

52:11

why? I mean OJ was with her earlier that

52:13

night, right? He was with Nicole earlier that night.

52:15

Did not have dinner with her. What was with

52:17

her? I mean... No, they all had dinner as

52:19

a family. Oh he did too. He was with

52:21

them. Then why didn't he grab the glasses that

52:24

were left behind? And you know I mean why

52:26

did Ron grab the glasses? And... Well they left

52:28

the glasses there. Right. And then he didn't... Meanwhile

52:30

left the glasses there. Theory, the prosecution theory

52:32

is that OJ goes to Nicole's house and

52:35

sees Ron and flies into a rage because

52:37

he thinks she's with like having something going

52:39

on with her and Ron, right? He

52:42

does not recognize that that's a side waiter and

52:44

I'm just confused about the logistics it would take

52:46

to have Jason and OJ both coordinate this. It

52:48

doesn't make sense to me. What is the evidence

52:50

that there are more than one assailant? What do

52:53

people say? Who people who say there's more than

52:55

one? What are they pointing to? Hold on. Let

52:57

me answer the question. I don't think this was

52:59

premeditated at all. I mean is there

53:01

a world where he was like meet me

53:04

at the house, let's go. This is a

53:06

little speculative so I didn't want to really

53:08

say this but it is said that Jason

53:10

and Nicole never got along. Who's to say

53:12

that? But I absolutely don't think this was

53:14

planned. I think OJ went into a fit

53:17

of rage. She had a diary full of

53:19

his awful spousal abuse and his abuse. He

53:22

brutalized her. He brutalized her. So is there

53:24

a world where he was like leave work

53:26

right now, meet me at the house because

53:28

he didn't clock out. He hand

53:30

wrote a clock out and he has no alibi

53:33

and nobody can account for his whereabouts past

53:35

9.50. I have something to say about the

53:37

alibi thing though. Because OJ went home. Here's

53:39

the thing. The reason the fact that no

53:41

alibi, we can't really take that seriously is

53:43

because he actually wasn't investigated. If the investigators

53:46

had done their job, they would have eliminated

53:48

him as a suspect by trying to track

53:50

down. If he was never interrogated, never interviewed,

53:52

maybe he's never had an opportunity to be

53:54

like I was here. When he's even said

53:56

I'm with my girlfriend, where is this existing?

53:58

Did he say this publicly? he didn't

54:00

say to the police, so who is he

54:02

telling this information to and who has determined

54:04

he doesn't have an alibi if the police

54:06

never actually investigated him? He might well. This

54:08

happens all the time in wrongful conviction cases,

54:10

innocence cases that because police don't do their

54:12

jobs, it could have been these three other

54:14

suspects. The police never just hunted down what

54:16

they were actually doing, got their phone records,

54:19

went to their work. They never did their job.

54:21

So we actually don't have a strong set of facts

54:23

to rely on when it comes to whether or not

54:26

he actually had an alibi because the police just asked

54:28

us up royally. I think you're absolutely right because there

54:30

was another fact that a storage

54:32

locker that was owned by Jason

54:34

Simpson, inside the storage locker, they

54:36

found a knife that matched the

54:39

description of the murder weapon and

54:41

it matches what could be used

54:43

to some of the blows to

54:45

the top of Nicole's head, but

54:47

we don't know because it wasn't

54:49

investigated. These are just things that

54:51

other people like sort of like

54:53

sluice have gone and done. The

54:55

LAPD did none of that. These

54:58

are considered cold cases. He's acquitted. Nobody

55:00

has been convicted this time. Now the LAPD might be like,

55:02

well, we need to charge him. So it's not a cold

55:04

case. It's done. He was acquitted. But

55:07

that doesn't mean all this physical evidence doesn't still exist.

55:09

Come on, LAPD. Get on it. Pull

55:11

out that hat. And you know what? Touch DNA.

55:14

There is so much sophisticated testing that we've done now

55:16

that could not be done then, which I think they

55:18

should do. But if they're like, look, we got our

55:20

guy, it's often not worth it for law enforcement agencies

55:22

to put in the resources and time on

55:24

a case like this versus let's say

55:26

another case that needs it more. Let

55:28

me ask you two more questions on

55:30

the Jason thing. We were talking about

55:33

this on the ADC case the other

55:35

day with that woman with the fingerprints

55:37

on her glove box and saying like,

55:39

how do you really a fingerprint? Who

55:41

knows who's touching what? The LAPD found

55:43

15 separate unidentified

55:46

fingerprints at the crime

55:48

scene. They didn't belong to

55:50

Nicole. They didn't belong to Ron. And they

55:52

didn't belong to OJ. But they never tested

55:54

Jason. They never took his prints to compare

55:56

them. No, because he was never interrogated. He

55:58

was not. never interviewed, he was never ruled

56:00

as a suspect, he wasn't even named a

56:02

person of interest. It was never on their

56:04

radar. But that's so funny. But why? There's

56:06

this big... Sorry? No, I'm just saying but

56:08

why? Because even at like, yes, once you

56:10

have... They had their guy. But like once

56:12

you have your eyes on OJ, sure, but

56:15

yeah, I mean I guess it speaks to

56:17

just what the LAPD didn't do because I

56:19

feel like even if you have one suspect,

56:21

like one person of interest in the case,

56:23

you don't just shut your eyes. I mean,

56:26

I'll look... It's hard to

56:28

blame investigators though considering... He's

56:30

got blood all over the place. I mean like there's blood

56:32

in your brain. Like literally they discovered that blood

56:34

evidence like within what a day or so.

56:36

Like I mean it was very early on

56:38

and then he takes off, he doesn't turn

56:40

himself in. I mean he's doing everything he

56:42

can to just bring the attention to himself

56:45

no matter what. So I understand that as

56:47

investigators that he is the most likely and

56:49

also you know the divorce was contentious, right?

56:51

He is to me absolutely the prime suspect

56:53

in this case. I mean it makes all

56:55

the sense in the world. I think the

56:57

frustration is that he was acquitted. Yeah, I

56:59

don't think there's any doubt that he is

57:01

the prime suspect. I think you know

57:04

certainly these theories... And then that book about... Can

57:06

we talk about that around? So I want to

57:08

talk about the book but I, if you guys

57:10

don't mind, I do want to talk about first

57:12

like the trial. I kind of want to move

57:14

in chronological order just because I feel like that

57:16

makes no sense. Give us an outline Jordan because

57:18

we'll be all over the place. You take charge.

57:21

No, no, no, no, no. So I just think

57:23

that it's important to talk about the trial. First

57:25

of all, there's just so many elements. Like I

57:27

don't know if you saw that oxygen episode about

57:29

the jury speaks, how the jury talked after the

57:31

fact about what they were going through during

57:33

the time of the trial. It's really enlightening

57:35

because they talk a lot about how they

57:38

were sequestered for so long. One guy even

57:40

had a heart attack or some... I want

57:42

to say with a heart attack during the

57:44

whole trial, one woman had her nephew's funeral.

57:47

If I'm not mistaken it was her nephew.

57:49

She had to have a guard accompany her.

57:51

Like there was a lot going on in

57:53

that... What was it? Eight months? It was

57:56

eight months. They were fully sequestered. It was

57:58

a hundred and thirty three days of actual

58:00

days in court. Yeah, and that takes a

58:02

an incredible toll on your mental health, but

58:05

they also talked about the DNA

58:07

evidence and they were saying and they a lot

58:09

of the jurors even to this day will say

58:11

they didn't understand it. They didn't understand DNA evidence

58:13

and not only did they not understand it because

58:16

it was so new the attorneys

58:18

spent so long on it. I think they spent

58:21

eight weeks or something on DNA evidence alone and

58:23

the jurors say they're like we were checked out.

58:25

We were we were done. We didn't even know

58:27

we were listening to at that point. So it's

58:29

a very enlightening episode in that sense because you

58:31

get you know, you get a look at what

58:33

they were thinking but there's just so many elements

58:35

of this from the DNA evidence to the glove

58:37

which I don't know still the glove fascinates me

58:39

because it's like it went over his hand. You

58:41

know what I mean? It wasn't like it didn't

58:43

fit. It was just tight. Also

58:46

leather shrinks when it's wet. Right.

58:49

The whole idea that if it was soaked

58:51

in blood at all it would tighten and

58:53

it would constrict. You can fake any of

58:55

that. He's an actor. I couldn't

58:58

possibly fit in the beef pants.

59:00

I know. The glove is just so fascinating

59:02

to me. But then you have the doubt

59:04

right because you you have the how the

59:07

evidence was handled. There was a lot of

59:09

issues with how long the blood samples sat

59:11

out and how long they were just like

59:13

out before they were transferred to a facility

59:15

and when certain droplets of blood were actually

59:17

collected it wasn't until a month later and

59:20

just you had a lot of doubt with

59:22

the handling of the evidence but also the

59:24

relationship between the LAPD

59:27

at the time and the African-American

59:29

community. There's a lot of doubt. And

59:32

so it's like even if you have all

59:34

of this evidence that says, you know, he

59:36

did it, why else would he go on

59:38

a six-hour car chase? Like why? Why would

59:40

he threaten to take his own life? You

59:43

know what I mean? Yet at the same

59:45

time you have that little bit of doubt

59:47

and unfortunately, like that's the standard. Like you

59:49

got to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt,

59:51

you know? And if that reasonable doubt exists,

59:54

you acquit. So it's just a really fascinating

59:56

case. Do you think but for the glove

59:58

he would have been... convicted? Like

1:00:00

if that glove just wasn't a part of the

1:00:02

trial. When I think about the glove and what

1:00:04

it meant to this case, I feel like it

1:00:06

was like the only out the jury had. But

1:00:08

like we got to find a way to acquit

1:00:10

this guy. And I know that sounds terrible, but

1:00:13

given the relationship exactly, which is set

1:00:15

up the LAPD, given the history, the

1:00:17

LAPD and the black community, and now

1:00:20

there's zero trust with the LAPD. This

1:00:22

is a dirty organization that has in

1:00:24

fact railroaded black people, railroaded

1:00:26

black men, and now they've got this

1:00:28

jury that is majority black, the descendant,

1:00:31

who's like, they're like they're trying to

1:00:33

take down one of our heroes, right?

1:00:35

Like there's no amount of success that

1:00:37

can protect a black man from the

1:00:39

LAPD, it seems. On that program you

1:00:41

were talking about, Jordan, did Carrie Best

1:00:43

speak the older black woman? She's probably

1:00:45

like in her 70s now because she's

1:00:47

the one who famously said that she,

1:00:50

along with quote, probably 90% of

1:00:53

the jury, admitted that the

1:00:55

verdict was payback for the

1:00:57

police being acquitted for the

1:00:59

Rodney King case. Was she one of the

1:01:01

ones that participated in that? So I don't remember

1:01:03

them by name. I actually watched

1:01:06

it probably a year ago now, but not

1:01:08

all of the jurors took part in this.

1:01:10

I think there were four and

1:01:12

your description does sound like it matches one

1:01:14

of the jurors that did take part. I

1:01:16

just don't know her by name. But they

1:01:19

all talked about that. And so because of

1:01:21

that, I don't know if the glove is

1:01:23

necessarily why he was acquitted. I think that,

1:01:25

sure, it may have been an out, but

1:01:27

I still think they were on this sort

1:01:29

of redemption path, right? That the power

1:01:32

was in their hands. Like they had

1:01:34

all the power. And regardless of if

1:01:36

they acquitted him because of the glove

1:01:38

or the evidence handling or whatever, I

1:01:41

still think they could have justified the acquittal.

1:01:43

Another way. Yeah. Well, it didn't help

1:01:45

to have Mark Furman up there.

1:01:47

OK. Oh, God, let's talk about Mark

1:01:49

Furman. What a piece of fucking work.

1:01:51

The guy who was caught on tape

1:01:53

saying all kinds of racist rhetoric. And

1:01:56

he was the one he got up

1:01:58

there like a shiny beacon. of hope

1:02:00

and truth and justice to serve and protect

1:02:02

and then they were like hey

1:02:04

do we want to talk about him

1:02:07

dropping the n-word every other word or

1:02:09

we're just gonna ignore that. Well correct

1:02:11

me if I'm wrong but he denied

1:02:13

it right he denied doing that and

1:02:15

then they brought the yeah right right

1:02:17

right correct. Also for the understanding of

1:02:19

this time frame the beating of Rodney

1:02:21

King happened in 1991

1:02:24

and then after the acquittal of the

1:02:26

police officers who brutally beat him the

1:02:29

LAPD they had no

1:02:31

trust of not only the people in

1:02:33

the city but the world was watching.

1:02:36

The world was watching this police department

1:02:38

that we have known to be corrupt

1:02:40

that we have known to have all

1:02:42

of these rumors circulating. I mean like

1:02:44

when you think of corrupt police departments

1:02:47

LAPD is on the top. Then it's

1:02:49

right there in black and white on

1:02:51

video in front of us and then

1:02:53

this fucking Furman guy it's like facepalm

1:02:55

what are you doing? Yeah why is

1:02:58

he still on that force? The

1:03:01

timing for OJ was

1:03:03

great right? I think

1:03:06

the timing played a huge role in

1:03:08

this. I mean obviously a lot of

1:03:11

things the relationship you know with

1:03:13

the LAPD and the community all of that

1:03:15

stuff played a role but I think the

1:03:18

timing really helped him because of that sort

1:03:20

of redemption path I spoke up. They knew

1:03:22

that the jurors knew that this was their

1:03:24

way to sort of free someone who wouldn't

1:03:27

otherwise be freed. He also by the way

1:03:29

did have an incredible legal team. He

1:03:31

did. You want to talk about the dream team

1:03:33

Robby? Oh yeah I mean we can talk a

1:03:36

little bit about it. I mean John and Cockney

1:03:38

have such a character here but this man has

1:03:40

earned his reputation right? He has successfully defended in

1:03:42

a lot of high-profile cases. He's been an advocate

1:03:45

in cases that are related to racism and

1:03:47

police brutality, civil rights cases. Robert Shapiro, he's

1:03:49

a super powerful attorney but then he's got

1:03:52

like Barry Scheck and Peter Newfield who are

1:03:54

the founders of the Innocence Project. I would

1:03:56

love to sit down with them and be

1:03:58

like any regrets there? because

1:04:01

I think that's an unfortunate part of their past.

1:04:03

But you know, as defense attorneys, they're like, well,

1:04:05

you know, you defend every, the defendant, you know

1:04:07

what I mean? Whatever you think might bite of

1:04:09

them. That's what they have to do. Yeah, right.

1:04:11

That's what they have to do. And I think

1:04:13

a lot of non-attorneys don't realize that that's their

1:04:15

job. You know what I mean? Like that's, my

1:04:17

sister asking this all the time. She's like, how

1:04:20

can some attorneys defend murderers? And I'm like, well,

1:04:22

that's their job. They have to

1:04:24

do it. But what I wanted to say is one of

1:04:26

the lawyers came out after, I don't remember his name, but

1:04:28

one of the lawyers said that he thinks OJ

1:04:31

did it. Robert Kardashian, was

1:04:33

it? I thought it was a, I thought

1:04:35

it was, I mean, maybe it was a

1:04:37

different one, but Robert Kardashian had a very

1:04:39

telling interview with Barbara Walters. If you're so

1:04:42

inclined, check it out. He

1:04:44

is very close, very close. They were

1:04:46

old friends. They knew each other back

1:04:48

from USC because he was the water

1:04:50

boy at USC and then

1:04:52

knew OJ back then.

1:04:55

And they were friends. Their wives were

1:04:57

friends. It was highly personal for them.

1:05:00

Remember Kris Jenner, who was

1:05:02

then Kris Kardashian, was

1:05:04

best friends with Nicole. Well,

1:05:06

and I'm pretty sure Kris is rumored to have

1:05:08

had an affair with OJ Simpson. So there's that.

1:05:10

I mean, let's not, I'm not trying to, I'm

1:05:12

not saying there is that rumor. I have not

1:05:15

known that. No, you're never, listen, what is it?

1:05:18

No, it's not important. It's Chloe. And look,

1:05:20

I'm not one that's on that bandwagon. I

1:05:22

firmly support Chloe Kardashian being part of that,

1:05:24

you know, that family as her sisters. But

1:05:26

I'm just saying that's a theory from some

1:05:28

people. You don't think so? That

1:05:31

girl's black. You think? Oh my lord.

1:05:33

Well, that's what I'm saying. The theory's out

1:05:35

there. Put the side by side. We're going to have

1:05:37

to solve that case. You have to come back another time. We're

1:05:40

going to have to solve that case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a

1:05:42

different, that's a different. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, what was that? Put

1:05:44

that on hold for now. I'm

1:05:47

literally googling this right now. It's Chloe

1:05:49

Kardashian black. I had no idea this was a thing.

1:05:51

Yes. No, it's a whole thing.

1:05:53

I think one of the episodes of the Kardashians, they

1:05:56

did a DNA test, like as one of the things,

1:05:58

which is like. Oh, yeah. But

1:06:00

but then tell them what happened. No,

1:06:02

they it was determined that she was

1:06:04

Robert Kardashian's daughter. What do you mean?

1:06:06

No, she goes. I don't want to

1:06:08

open it. I believe you. Oh, I

1:06:10

don't want to see her right You're

1:06:13

right. Yeah, they didn't open it. They were like,

1:06:16

here's your DNA test and she was like No

1:06:21

I want to know if you believe them turn

1:06:24

it to the camera and don't look I

1:06:26

want to know Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you're

1:06:28

so right. I totally forgot that So that's

1:06:30

the whole thing. But anyway back to the

1:06:32

Robert Kardashian thing And

1:06:35

him talking to Barbara Walters. He so he said

1:06:37

that he thinks OJ did it I have

1:06:39

a question for the lawyers in the room and

1:06:41

I will step out because I'm an attorney Can

1:06:44

you guys think of another

1:06:46

trial that had so

1:06:49

many fucking attorneys? Like

1:06:51

I just listed in this research. I

1:06:53

just listed the big guys Robert Shapiro

1:06:55

Johnny Cochran Robert Kardashian Efley

1:06:58

Bailey Alan Dershowitz Peter Newfield Barry

1:07:00

Shek and Gerald there were more.

1:07:02

Yeah No, he had a whole whole

1:07:04

team. He was he was that his bench

1:07:06

was deep his bench was deep It was like a

1:07:08

football team. He literally was like, let's make this look

1:07:11

like a football team guys. Everybody line up Can you

1:07:13

guys ever think of another case where

1:07:15

somebody had so many lawyers deep

1:07:17

sitting on that bench? But

1:07:20

I haven't seen anything like this, but I wouldn't

1:07:22

say not at one. I know not at one

1:07:24

It's been ongoing. I'll say this that

1:07:26

also to me was part of the performance,

1:07:28

you know I'm like, I mean

1:07:30

that there was something powerful about watching all

1:07:32

these really powerful attorneys all in one space

1:07:34

all seated together Because it's a

1:07:36

just two people that they all wouldn't take

1:07:38

this unless you know I mean like this

1:07:40

guy that there's some reasonable doubt or he's

1:07:43

maybe innocent because they're all kind of like

1:07:45

attaching the Reputations and and to this guy

1:07:47

and all working together on although I know

1:07:49

there were there were issues between the attorneys Which is

1:07:51

bound to happen But I remember just thinking just looking

1:07:53

at that and and thinking that's a hell of

1:07:55

a team like you and in my mind I was like

1:07:57

he had to you know, all of them have to be

1:07:59

convinced to some extent that he

1:08:01

deserves a fair trial and that

1:08:04

maybe they've got it wrong. I don't know. I

1:08:06

just thought that was part of the performance. Well,

1:08:08

let me ask you this. If you guys were

1:08:10

on the jury, are you quitting or what are

1:08:12

you doing? Hell no. Oh, hell no. I would

1:08:14

not have. Not a quitting. I would

1:08:17

have convicted someone else. Yeah, there's

1:08:19

no way around the forensic evidence. It just isn't.

1:08:21

But put yourself in that time though. Put yourself

1:08:23

in that moment in time, right? Like in that

1:08:25

moment in time where, you know, as the Rodney

1:08:28

King thing had just happened, like 100% certainty, you

1:08:30

can say you would not have acquitted. I'll

1:08:33

tell you why. I am that person who is

1:08:35

like, if you don't answer the three questions you

1:08:38

need to answer to join our Facebook group, I shall not enter

1:08:40

you into our Facebook group. I am a

1:08:42

total square. And to me, I'd be like, I would

1:08:44

be like, what is happening outside

1:08:46

of this courtroom with the LAPD and the black

1:08:48

community is serious and needs to be addressed. What

1:08:50

is happening inside the courtroom is about justice for

1:08:52

these victims. I would not

1:08:54

be like, this is payback. I don't work like

1:08:56

that. I would have hung that jury I guess

1:08:58

or something. I don't know. There would have been another trial.

1:09:00

Rabia, can you go through the

1:09:03

list of evidence just because we

1:09:05

have mentioned the forensic evidence that

1:09:08

the jury had to contend with. Can

1:09:11

you just quickly go through that list

1:09:13

because they had hair evidence, fiber evidence,

1:09:15

blood evidence, glove evidence, and shoe evidence.

1:09:17

Just kind of like give the highlights

1:09:20

because these are the things that I

1:09:22

am wondering even thinking about

1:09:24

the state of the world, the state of

1:09:26

the LAPD and the glove. How

1:09:29

do you overlook this evidence? There's

1:09:32

hair evidence and the hair evidence is

1:09:35

now this is the complication hair evidence is consistent with. Just

1:09:38

means like it's hair of an African-American

1:09:40

male likely, but we

1:09:42

don't have like it's not a DNA match was

1:09:44

done then. It could probably be done

1:09:46

now even without the root because now we have

1:09:48

a different kind of DNA testing system that works.

1:09:51

But hair is consistent with Simpson. We're found

1:09:53

on a hat at the crime scene and

1:09:55

then on Ron Goldman's shirt. But okay,

1:09:58

he was at dinner with him. Maybe

1:10:00

Ron gave him a hug, I mean anything, you know. Then

1:10:02

there's fiber evidence. And I think this is like

1:10:05

really, how do you

1:10:07

dismiss this, right? Like, so there's cotton

1:10:09

fibers that are consistent with carpet in

1:10:11

his car that are found on a

1:10:13

glove, right? At Rockingham, the

1:10:15

carpet fibers consistent with the Bronco found

1:10:17

at a cap at the residence. And my question

1:10:20

is like, I don't know what their relationship was

1:10:22

like to the extent was, did he visit the

1:10:24

house a lot? Was he there a lot? Could

1:10:26

he have brought in the fibers on another time?

1:10:28

You can't date the time and place that those

1:10:31

fibers were found, right? But if they had a

1:10:33

contentious relationship and she's like, he does

1:10:35

not go to their property normally, then what's

1:10:37

he doing there? But again, it's consistent with,

1:10:39

okay, are the floor mats in the Bronco,

1:10:41

same as the floor mats in somebody else's

1:10:43

car that goes to that residence, right? But then

1:10:45

you get the blood, right? In the Bronco. There's

1:10:48

blood in the Bronco. There is blood

1:10:50

found in the foyer and O.J. Simpson's

1:10:53

master bedroom. There's blood

1:10:55

on his driveway. There's blood on socks,

1:10:57

okay, in O.J.'s home that was matched.

1:11:00

On the back fence. Yeah, you know,

1:11:02

there's just blood everywhere.

1:11:04

It's bloody, not just a crime

1:11:06

scene. It's bloody O.J. Simpson's house. He's like, I

1:11:08

cut my finger. Listen, none of us should

1:11:10

have that much blood. Just splatter all

1:11:12

over our house. Who has that

1:11:15

much blood? I put it in

1:11:17

a blender, Robbie. Okay. And

1:11:19

then I flung it around. Great in the kitchen.

1:11:22

Unless you're showing up to trial with half of

1:11:24

a finger, it just would

1:11:26

never be a reasonable

1:11:28

defense. Yeah, and so, you know, I mean,

1:11:30

the glove, he

1:11:32

says he didn't wear it. But apparently

1:11:34

Nicole had bought a pair of gloves that were either

1:11:36

the exact same gloves or some more to it in

1:11:39

1990, and that was the time they were

1:11:42

actually together. They were a pair of extra-large,

1:11:44

air-light gloves, assuming for her husband at the

1:11:46

time. And Simpson wore those exact

1:11:48

gloves from 1990 to 1994. He

1:11:52

owned those gloves. But then

1:11:54

you've got the shoe print, which were

1:11:56

consistent exactly with his size shoe and

1:11:58

also the kind of shoe. that he owned.

1:12:00

But I think that the blood is hard for me

1:12:03

to overlook. You know what I mean? I feel

1:12:05

like that's like some of the most...everything else is

1:12:07

kind of consistent with consistent with. Ideally, all

1:12:09

this stuff just still exists in a locker

1:12:11

room. And I don't understand why nobody

1:12:13

has gone back and been like, we're just going to put this

1:12:15

to rest once and for even the state.

1:12:17

It would serve the state to do that.

1:12:19

Yeah, because it is. There's still nobody serving

1:12:22

time for Nicole and Ron's

1:12:24

murder. Let me ask you guys

1:12:26

a question. The prosecution put forward 72 witnesses, which

1:12:28

again, to your

1:12:32

point, Jordan, it's like how are

1:12:34

you asking civilians to sit

1:12:36

and digest so much frickin' infirmity?

1:12:39

Could we not have streamlined this?

1:12:41

Who do you think served as

1:12:44

the strongest argument for the

1:12:46

prosecution? I mean,

1:12:48

even though they failed, there were still

1:12:50

really excellent points being brought up that

1:12:53

I still don't understand how the jury

1:12:55

overlooked. Who did you guys think was

1:12:57

the strongest witness for the prosecution? Yeah,

1:13:00

I think Alan Park was. Rabia loves

1:13:02

to talk about prosecution. No,

1:13:04

I think Alan was a very strong witness

1:13:06

for the...and Alan was his limo driver, was

1:13:08

OJ Simpson's driver. And he was

1:13:11

supposed to pick up OJ Simpson that night, gets to

1:13:13

the house. Nobody's answering the door. So he's like waiting.

1:13:15

He gets to the house at 10.25 because

1:13:17

OJ's got to fight to Chicago. Rings the doorbell. Nothing.

1:13:20

Now, here's the weird thing about his testimony

1:13:22

to me. He says shortly before 11 p.m.

1:13:24

and this is all within the time frame

1:13:26

of the murder having taken place. Shortly before

1:13:28

11 p.m., according to Alan Park, there is

1:13:30

this shadowy figure, tall black guy, about 200

1:13:32

pounds wearing dark clothes. He sees him walk

1:13:34

up the driveway, enter the house. Look,

1:13:36

here's the thing. We can all identify...I can

1:13:39

identify who is walking upstairs by the footsteps.

1:13:41

If it is my son, my husband, my

1:13:43

mother, my walking in the dark and I

1:13:45

see a shadow figure, I can tell by

1:13:47

the gate, by the structure. You can

1:13:49

tell who that person is. What I'd understand is like how

1:13:52

he's like this shadowy figure. I don't know if it was

1:13:54

the guy that I see constantly every single day and drive

1:13:56

around or not. Yeah, you do. Yeah, you do. You have

1:13:58

to know if it was him or if... was definitely

1:14:00

not him, you know, by the gate, you

1:14:02

know, there's just, I don't understand. It could

1:14:04

just be that he was like, I'm not

1:14:07

gonna testify. I saw him and he was

1:14:09

definitely him, but come on. Anyhow. Well, speaking

1:14:11

of his gate, just to throw this in

1:14:13

there, I don't know if this is a

1:14:15

correct term. I don't know if this is

1:14:18

a medical term. OJ was bowlegged. Like, he

1:14:20

had a very specific way to walk and

1:14:22

if it is a shadowy figure, you know,

1:14:24

bowlegged things, right? Yeah, like you could tell.

1:14:27

So, I mean, he was a very

1:14:29

strong witness for the prosecution, but I'm

1:14:31

like, you didn't, you didn't

1:14:33

know who that was, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:14:35

And then he says, you know, he sees this

1:14:38

shadowy figure enter the house. Well, who the fudge

1:14:40

was it then? If it wasn't, and then OJ

1:14:42

Simpson comes out a little while later. I mean,

1:14:44

if I'm the driver, I'm like, if I wasn't

1:14:46

you, then who just came into your house? Was

1:14:48

it your son? Like, who was it? And didn't

1:14:50

he testify that when OJ did eventually get in

1:14:53

the car, he was very like, tense

1:14:56

and, and, and high

1:14:59

stride, like, stressed? Yeah.

1:15:02

And he also was carrying a bag.

1:15:04

And when Alan, you know, obviously, you

1:15:06

know, would say like, here, let me

1:15:08

put that in there for you. OJ

1:15:11

refused and wouldn't let him touch the

1:15:13

bag. And the bag has never been

1:15:15

seen again. He

1:15:18

was a very strong witness for the prosecution, I

1:15:20

think, because he's not like a character witness, you

1:15:22

know, like, they're, they're a character witnesses who like,

1:15:24

this guy slides into a rage, this guy has

1:15:27

the issue, whatever. But he's testifying to actually what

1:15:29

he, what he saw on the night of the

1:15:31

murder, and that he couldn't

1:15:33

get ahold of OJ that night. He's outside his

1:15:35

house. OJ's not there. My other thing is like,

1:15:38

I don't know the structure of this home. Where

1:15:40

are you parked? And where does this guy show

1:15:42

up from? And what is he driving? And did

1:15:44

he get an Uber? And the shadowy figure is

1:15:46

what just comes out of the bushes

1:15:48

like what? Well, because I

1:15:51

also thought when he came back, he

1:15:53

hopped his back fence. Oh, right.

1:15:55

But then the driver would have been in

1:15:57

the driveway. I would have to look at

1:15:59

a diagram. to figure out like who, what, where,

1:16:01

why, and when on all that stuff. Unless like

1:16:04

his back doors were locked so then he walked

1:16:06

from the backyard to the front to go into

1:16:08

the front door then in that case he came

1:16:10

across him around the side of the house. I

1:16:12

don't think Kato Kailin was necessarily a great

1:16:16

witness. He was just a fun

1:16:18

witness for people watching the trial. No! And

1:16:20

then he became some kind of

1:16:22

like seedless celebrity. Are we serious

1:16:24

right now? What is happening? So

1:16:26

I do want to talk about

1:16:28

the book because after the book

1:16:30

there was then the civil

1:16:33

trial so I want to try to fit that in. Like

1:16:35

I do want to try to fit both of those components

1:16:37

in. Yeah, taken away. Yeah. But the book, so I thought

1:16:39

this is so interesting because I don't have the book. I

1:16:41

have a description. I thought this was

1:16:44

so interesting. So the book that he came

1:16:46

out with that he had someone or a

1:16:48

writer worked with him on this book. It

1:16:50

was titled I Did It, okay? Psychopath Behavior

1:16:52

to after your put on

1:16:54

trial for a murder to come out with

1:16:57

a book called I Did It. Just very

1:16:59

bizarre. Anyway, it says in Simpson's hypothetical scenario

1:17:01

in the book he has an unwilling

1:17:03

accomplice named Charlie who urges him

1:17:05

to not engage with Nicole whom

1:17:07

Simpson plans to quote scare the

1:17:09

shit out of. Simpson ignores Charlie's

1:17:11

advice and continues to Nicole's condo

1:17:13

where he finds and confronts Ron

1:17:16

Goldman. According to the book Nicole falls

1:17:18

and hits her head on the concrete

1:17:20

and Goldman crouches in a karate pose.

1:17:22

As the confrontation escalates, Simpson writes, quote,

1:17:25

then something went horribly wrong and I

1:17:27

know what happened but I can't tell

1:17:29

you how, end quote. He writes that

1:17:31

he regained consciousness later with no memory

1:17:33

of the actual murder. I think the book

1:17:35

is entitled If I Did It but the

1:17:37

if, well they renamed it. Yeah, they renamed

1:17:39

it and the family renamed it. It wasn't

1:17:41

even, he wasn't allowed to publish

1:17:43

it. The publisher like dropped it. The Goldman

1:17:45

family got the Goldman family to write the

1:17:47

book as part of their settlement. Our Patreon

1:17:50

listeners are saying that it actually was

1:17:52

called If I Did It even when

1:17:54

OJ was going to publish it but

1:17:56

what the Goldman family did was make

1:17:58

the if really time. Interesting.

1:18:01

Oh, that makes sense. Okay,

1:18:04

that makes sense. I

1:18:06

know the Goldman family has been very

1:18:08

vocal. So when you first look

1:18:11

at it, it looks like I did it because

1:18:13

you can't see, you don't see the if, it's

1:18:15

like tiny. Oh, genius, good for them. No, you

1:18:17

can barely see it. It's like blended into the

1:18:19

eye, or no, it's blended into the, yeah,

1:18:21

the eye or something. The thing is, no matter what he titled

1:18:23

it, the contents of the

1:18:25

book are insane. But it does

1:18:27

show somebody who's very callous. So

1:18:29

then he gets sued civilly for

1:18:32

wrongful death. And just to state

1:18:34

the difference there between civil and

1:18:36

criminal guilt and civil liability, the

1:18:38

burden of proof of it is

1:18:40

much lower. So there in criminal

1:18:42

cases, you have to

1:18:44

prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. When it

1:18:46

comes to civil cases, you have to prove

1:18:48

that it's just more likely, it's more likely

1:18:50

that it happened than it didn't happen. So

1:18:52

it's much easier to prove. So in

1:18:55

this case, they found OJ Simpson liable

1:18:57

for wrongful death for the death of

1:18:59

Nicole and Ron. And maybe it's because

1:19:01

enough time had gone by where people

1:19:04

really reflected, you know what I mean,

1:19:06

on the verdict. And they thought like,

1:19:08

maybe we got this wrong. And then

1:19:11

the civil trial ended up different, but

1:19:13

I just think it's so great. And I know the book.

1:19:15

The composition of the jury could have made a difference. But

1:19:19

the book also played a big role. The

1:19:21

book came in as evidence too. Oh,

1:19:23

they used it as evidence in the civil trial.

1:19:26

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, liable. And obviously

1:19:29

he didn't have to do jail time for

1:19:31

that, right? Because it's a civil matter. It

1:19:33

blows my mind. The whole thing just blows

1:19:35

my mind. Shannon is asking, I

1:19:37

thought the book came out after the civil trials.

1:19:39

I think the book was written beforehand. The family

1:19:41

was aware of the book, but the book had

1:19:43

not been published. The manuscript existed at the time

1:19:45

of the civil trial, I'm pretty sure. And

1:19:48

then it was actually published. Yeah, I don't know if it

1:19:50

had been published, right? Yeah, I don't know if it had

1:19:52

been published, but I know they did use excerpts of

1:19:54

the book. I mean, look, to

1:19:56

me, I don't think there's a mystery

1:19:59

as to whether... OJ himself was there on

1:20:01

the scene in one capacity or another.

1:20:03

Involvement. I feel like he's the

1:20:05

only person culpable for this. But

1:20:07

for a lot of people, questions about

1:20:10

Jason are outstanding. And

1:20:13

I'm not really sold on Jason, frankly. I'm not

1:20:15

sold. That's the only mystery, I guess, left us

1:20:17

all for me. I just

1:20:19

think I need to know more. Yeah, I just

1:20:21

think I need to know more. I just need

1:20:23

to know. And the one thing I know about

1:20:25

chefs is they work very late. I think, right,

1:20:27

they work crazy hours. I

1:20:30

just need to know more. I need to

1:20:32

know why was his time card written and

1:20:34

what. I just need to know more. We've

1:20:37

talked about this in several cases,

1:20:39

that once the police zero in

1:20:41

on one idea, everything is going

1:20:43

to fit that narrative. And

1:20:45

so they had their guy. Why

1:20:47

ask any other questions? We talked about this

1:20:49

in the Chris Watts case when it came

1:20:51

to Nicole Kessinger. They had their guy. They

1:20:54

didn't need to see her involvement. So

1:20:56

it does make sense to me. And

1:20:59

again, it is really sad because

1:21:01

there is nobody who

1:21:03

has paid for the debts of these

1:21:05

two people. And

1:21:07

his whole persona throughout the rest

1:21:10

of his life was just very

1:21:12

gross to me. I really want

1:21:14

to know how his kids are,

1:21:16

his kids that were Nicole's, Justin

1:21:19

and Sidney. You know, they're

1:21:21

adults now. They have their own lives. They've

1:21:23

kept out of the media. But could

1:21:25

you imagine being those two children? You

1:21:27

just reminded me why I was so

1:21:30

confused between the kids. I forgot their

1:21:32

kid together was Justin and Justin and

1:21:34

Jason to me are so similar. So

1:21:36

I thought that I think that makes

1:21:38

sense. But anyway, yeah, I think it's

1:21:41

a yeah, you're right. I mean,

1:21:43

it's just a crazy situation. And

1:21:45

that's why I chose the case because I

1:21:48

was like, you know what, we got to

1:21:50

dig in here a little bit. Your next

1:21:52

podcast, Jordan, I would love people to actually

1:21:54

revisit the trial day to

1:21:56

day. That would be a fascinating

1:21:58

sort of expose. going through the

1:22:00

day and just you were saying that

1:22:03

you were apologizing for comparing it to

1:22:05

what happens now, but I actually think

1:22:08

it's very relevant when we see things,

1:22:10

they're like, that would never happen today,

1:22:12

that would never fly today. Robbie's point

1:22:15

of the DNA would have been much

1:22:17

clearer today. Oh yeah. And there were

1:22:19

just so many things that just we

1:22:21

wouldn't tolerate, aren't allowed. I would even

1:22:24

wonder if cameras would be allowed, if

1:22:27

the jury would be sequestered as long as they were,

1:22:29

there are so many things that would be

1:22:31

done differently. Yeah, and I think that exactly

1:22:33

what I was saying earlier, it was kind

1:22:35

of the perfect storm for OJ Simpson. I

1:22:38

mean, the perfect storm in his favor, right?

1:22:40

It was not only the timing and the

1:22:42

Rodney King thing, but also the

1:22:44

jury being sequestered. They just wanted to get the

1:22:46

hell out of there. And then the DNA evidence

1:22:48

being so new, they didn't have the techniques they

1:22:51

have today and the jury being over listening to

1:22:53

it and the relationship with the LAPD,

1:22:55

there was just so many factors that worked in

1:22:57

his favor at the end of the day. That's

1:22:59

what it comes down to. And I also, I don't

1:23:01

know the history of Marsha Clark at the time, and

1:23:04

I don't know if she was also the lead

1:23:06

on it, but I mean, how much experience did you

1:23:08

have in a homicide, you know, like trying homicide

1:23:10

cases? I'm wondering. It almost seems

1:23:13

like they thought the right strategy is to throw

1:23:15

everything at this, everything, without actually having a strategy.

1:23:17

Any single person we can think of who has

1:23:19

something negative to say about him, we're just gonna

1:23:21

put them on the stand, without realizing you're gonna

1:23:24

lose, and they should know you're gonna lose jury.

1:23:26

I sat through one jury trial. It was a

1:23:28

non-state trial. And I watched the jury fall asleep

1:23:30

as his defense counsel droned down in on it.

1:23:32

I watched jury members asleep. I'm like,

1:23:35

well, it's funny. I was just watching

1:23:37

it, or not watching, but reading about

1:23:39

the Trump's current hush money trial,

1:23:41

because I'm trying to keep up with it,

1:23:43

so I can update my listeners specifically about

1:23:45

Michael Cohen's testimony. And one of the reports

1:23:47

that came in was that one of the

1:23:49

jurors had his eyes closed. And it's like,

1:23:51

it happened. I mean, it happened. You're sitting

1:23:53

in that courtroom for hours at a time,

1:23:56

and some testimony is more boring than others,

1:23:58

and they're so bad. You

1:24:01

don't know people's capability

1:24:03

to get that information

1:24:05

processed. Another

1:24:08

argument for professional juries that Ellen

1:24:10

2028 professional juries. I

1:24:12

definitely wanted on a couple more things,

1:24:14

Rabia. I want to talk about how

1:24:16

Marsha Clark was very outmatched. She was

1:24:19

outmatched. Listen, she's against

1:24:22

these massive Titans who in

1:24:25

the entertainment world, they've all defended

1:24:27

entertainers and people in sports. She

1:24:29

was completely outmatched. It wasn't fair.

1:24:32

They know how to deal with the media even. She has

1:24:34

no idea how to deal with the media. Yes. No

1:24:37

media training whatsoever. The ridicule of

1:24:39

her, we'll talk about that in a

1:24:41

couple more things. Jordan, we have a

1:24:43

little addendum episode on our Patreon where

1:24:45

we talk about the things we didn't

1:24:47

really get to and dive into things

1:24:49

that came up in our conversation. You're

1:24:52

more than welcome to come back for that. I

1:24:54

love that. I actually really, when I read the

1:24:56

email that you chose OJ Simpson, I was like,

1:24:59

oh, fucking.

1:25:02

Oh. But it's

1:25:04

worth it to look at

1:25:06

it because the OJ trial,

1:25:08

it changed a lot of

1:25:10

the way that people consume

1:25:12

media, consume true crime.

1:25:15

It brought up a lot and it's

1:25:17

often compared to so many

1:25:19

other trials now. I

1:25:22

think reinvestigating it actually, this is

1:25:24

a call out to whoever wants

1:25:26

to do this, a complete reinvestigation

1:25:28

of the day to day

1:25:30

because it really is fascinating. Did

1:25:32

you guys watch The People versus OJ, the docu-series?

1:25:35

I did. It was fantastic. It

1:25:37

was fantastic. It was so good.

1:25:40

Honestly, that's what reinvigorated my interest

1:25:42

because obviously, I was

1:25:44

so young at the time that all of

1:25:46

this happened, but everyone was recommending that docu-series

1:25:49

and I was just like, wow. This is

1:25:51

even crazier than I ever knew. Before

1:25:54

we wrap up, there's one thing we didn't talk about and

1:25:56

OJ had written a couple letters that

1:25:58

were field letters that one for the public

1:26:00

one for the kids and the in

1:26:02

the in the public one and this almost feels the deal

1:26:04

for me when it comes to being

1:26:06

absolutely convinced he's guilty is a line he says

1:26:09

at the end now he has

1:26:11

demonstrably without unequivocally battered

1:26:13

Nicole there are there is we there's

1:26:15

photographs of her injuries like we know

1:26:17

for sure she was a battered spouse

1:26:19

and he says that the end

1:26:22

is letter at times I have felt like

1:26:24

a battered husband or boyfriend. Oh no

1:26:26

I love term you know when

1:26:30

somebody who is unequivocally an

1:26:32

abuser has been proven like then

1:26:35

turns around and says I was

1:26:37

the one who's better but also that

1:26:39

doesn't surprise me only because

1:26:41

what I know of people

1:26:44

like that the people who

1:26:46

are capable of doing that

1:26:48

are the type of people

1:26:50

to make themselves the victim do

1:26:52

you know what I mean so like it doesn't

1:26:54

really surprise a hundred percent yeah

1:26:57

a hundred percent yeah that just

1:26:59

made my stomach turn yeah. Rabi

1:27:01

will you just introduce that because

1:27:03

those letters you're looking at the

1:27:05

ones that I sent the

1:27:07

three letters that were sealed from CNN yeah but

1:27:10

the letter I don't want to I read what

1:27:12

I reviewed was the public one yeah I

1:27:15

mean do you want to call they

1:27:17

were sort of like suicide letters do you want

1:27:20

to say that yeah I mean well that was

1:27:22

what his his his friend Robert Kardashian was worried

1:27:24

about that he's like I think this guy is

1:27:26

like he was worried about his mental health he's

1:27:28

like he's written his letters he's doing his wills

1:27:30

he's like you know it seems like he's gonna

1:27:33

take his life and even the whole Bronco chase

1:27:35

was you know what we know is

1:27:37

that he had a gun to his head much of the time

1:27:39

I mean that's the thing if it was a son why would

1:27:41

he have a gun to his head why

1:27:43

wouldn't he be around trying to take care of his son why

1:27:46

wasn't he with his son that's what I just don't believe in

1:27:48

the son thing but yeah so there were a few

1:27:50

letters I'm trying to know I have now lost my

1:27:52

place in the 17th what

1:27:54

the the idea was that he wrote a

1:27:56

letter to his children his mother and

1:28:00

then the public basically

1:28:02

proclaiming his innocence which again

1:28:05

it's exactly what you said

1:28:07

Jordan it's just that narcissistic

1:28:10

I am the victim even

1:28:12

though we knew that even a victim

1:28:14

of my murder wife I'm even her

1:28:16

victim exactly Nicole had called so many

1:28:19

times there were so many allegations that

1:28:21

she made of abuse she kept a

1:28:23

diary this woman that the 911 call

1:28:26

we played during the crash course he

1:28:28

was a violent man it doesn't

1:28:30

matter what that his outward persona was to

1:28:32

the rest of the world he abused

1:28:35

his wife that's that's a fact you

1:28:38

know and and nobody protected her

1:28:40

she went to shelters to seek

1:28:42

help she called the police the

1:28:44

police didn't help unfortunately this is

1:28:46

something we see in statistics every

1:28:49

day women die at the

1:28:51

hands of their intimate partners and their husbands

1:28:53

and their spouses and their partners because nobody

1:28:56

helps them and nobody helped Nicole and

1:28:59

then he got away with it and and

1:29:02

and because abuse is something that is a generational kind of

1:29:04

I mean like where do you think I mean his son

1:29:07

it explains why his son also has

1:29:09

similar issues attacking women because this is

1:29:12

probably something he witnessed with

1:29:14

his own father yeah what

1:29:16

are your final Oh God

1:29:18

Jordan if you were on

1:29:20

the jury today what would

1:29:23

you how would you weigh in and

1:29:25

also my next question is how

1:29:28

do you think it would play out different if the

1:29:30

people versus OJ Simpson was in 2024 if I was

1:29:32

on the jury

1:29:34

well here's where the dilemma

1:29:37

comes in because if you're on the jury

1:29:39

you obviously have your counterparts that are so

1:29:42

they're they're

1:29:44

so set on acquitting

1:29:47

him and what's

1:29:50

one as Robbie was saying like you're the one holdout

1:29:53

and then you get a hung jury and then what

1:29:55

you know I mean like I don't I don't

1:29:58

know if it really would have like helped anything

1:30:00

but I do think he was guilty. I

1:30:02

do. If I was on the jury, I

1:30:04

would definitely, you know, say, hey guys, let's

1:30:07

check out this DNA evidence one more time.

1:30:10

Let's just take a quick look. So, yeah,

1:30:13

I mean, if I was on the jury, that's how I would go.

1:30:15

But in 2024, you

1:30:17

know, it's hard

1:30:19

to say. I think some of

1:30:22

the same issues are still around,

1:30:24

but it's not what it was at that

1:30:26

time. And it really

1:30:28

depends, like it really depends on the

1:30:31

makeup of the jury. It does. It

1:30:33

does. And everyone knows that and the

1:30:35

judge, and the judge, yeah, and

1:30:38

the judge, but we see it in today's cases

1:30:40

too. I mean, look at Trump's

1:30:43

recent trials, say what

1:30:45

you want about him, but the judge matters

1:30:47

and the jury matters. You know what I

1:30:49

mean? Like it all not in all cases,

1:30:51

it matters. In Johnny Depp and Amber Heard's

1:30:53

case, the jury matters. It just does. And

1:30:56

that's why Vaudier is so important and that's

1:30:58

why the attorneys are trying to, you know

1:31:00

what I mean? And it just

1:31:02

depends. What's the jury makeup in 2024? That's

1:31:04

the answer to the question, you know? Yeah, but

1:31:06

also, I mean, in 2024, I would hope

1:31:08

that the prosecution shows up with actual

1:31:11

evidence and not paid

1:31:13

okay when, right? I mean, like they're like,

1:31:15

let's get some real forensics here. A strategy?

1:31:17

You know, what's funny

1:31:19

is that the prosecution probably thought our case

1:31:22

is so strong that we don't even need

1:31:24

to worry about it. We have all this

1:31:26

blood evidence and all this DNA, like our

1:31:28

case is so strong. But I think if

1:31:30

they would have showed up with a strategy,

1:31:32

as you said, and they would have limited

1:31:34

their witnesses and really focused on what was

1:31:36

important, maybe it could have

1:31:38

been different. But I

1:31:40

don't think they went into it with the right

1:31:43

plan because they just assumed it was a way. They didn't need

1:31:45

72 witnesses. A lot of those

1:31:47

people were character witnesses. And it's like, oh,

1:31:49

he is a great guy. I love him.

1:31:51

He gave me he tipped me $20 on

1:31:53

a beer once. Like,

1:31:56

really? Like, just let's say exactly what

1:31:58

you do on your show. Stick

1:32:00

to the facts. We don't need, you

1:32:02

know, get one character witness up there to say

1:32:05

that he tithes or something like that. Not that

1:32:07

that matters. Yes. But 72

1:32:09

witnesses, really? I don't think you

1:32:11

need that. And one more thing I'll say, at the

1:32:14

end of the day, the jury is human. Yes,

1:32:16

they will check out, but they're also going to

1:32:18

either vibe with the attorney presenting the case or

1:32:20

not. And because

1:32:22

these other attorneys have so much experience,

1:32:24

media savvy, they are performers in and

1:32:27

of themselves. Oh, yeah. There's no way,

1:32:29

Marcia, there's no way they could match

1:32:31

that level of charisma and connection to

1:32:33

the jury. The jury is just

1:32:35

going to like those attorneys better. They just aren't.

1:32:38

Yeah. Yeah. Kelly has a question

1:32:40

for you in the chat, Jordan. What

1:32:43

is your verdict with the same evidence the

1:32:45

jury had in 1994, same case presented, what

1:32:51

is your verdict with the

1:32:53

perfect, wait, are you asking two questions,

1:32:55

Kelly? What is your verdict with the perfect

1:32:57

presentation of evidence with what we know now?

1:33:01

Mine would be the same verdict.

1:33:03

Yeah. Exactly. I

1:33:06

mean, especially with what we know now, right?

1:33:08

I can understand how the jury was confused

1:33:11

by DNA evidence. I can understand it. It

1:33:13

was such a new thing. I

1:33:15

can get why they're like, how in the world can

1:33:17

you take this blood droplet and match it to like,

1:33:19

I can get that. But especially

1:33:21

with what we know now, for sure. I

1:33:24

mean, that's not even a question. Jordan,

1:33:28

you are a delight. I am so

1:33:30

fascinated by your take. I think that

1:33:33

your podcast just being unbiased and presenting the

1:33:35

facts. I don't want to say more people

1:33:37

should do it because I want you to

1:33:39

get all the accolades for it. So

1:33:41

no one else do it. Thank you. I think

1:33:43

it's just awesome. And you are more than welcome

1:33:45

to come back and chat with us about the

1:33:47

other things. And thank you for stepping

1:33:49

out of your box and sharing your opinions with

1:33:52

us, even though that's not what you normally do.

1:33:55

And thank you for choosing this case because I think we

1:33:57

would have avoided it had it not been for you. I'm

1:34:01

happy to challenge. I'm happy to bring

1:34:03

the challenge. No, you guys killed it

1:34:05

and I loved, loved,

1:34:07

loved being here. So I would love to come

1:34:09

back. You guys are amazing. You guys

1:34:12

are both. I mean, between the personality and

1:34:14

the knowledge, you guys got it all. Thank

1:34:16

you. I appreciate you both. Thank you. You're

1:34:18

gonna be very busy this election year. I

1:34:20

know that. So good luck. Definitely.

1:34:23

I can't wait. So please tell our

1:34:25

listeners how they can follow you, support

1:34:27

you and get more information about all

1:34:29

of your upcoming projects, your current projects,

1:34:31

and everything else you have going on.

1:34:35

Of course, I'm always developing my platform

1:34:37

and myself, but you can find my

1:34:39

podcast. It's just called unbiased. You can

1:34:41

find it on any podcast platform. I

1:34:44

also do video on YouTube and my

1:34:46

social media handles, handles or handle, I

1:34:48

guess, is at Jordan is my lawyer

1:34:51

and TikTok and Instagram are where I

1:34:53

do most of my posting. So that's

1:34:55

where you can awesome. All right.

1:34:58

Well, Rabia, did we solve

1:35:00

the case? I think

1:35:02

we did. It's not if you did it, you

1:35:09

did it. Okay. Everyone

1:35:11

just changed the title of the book.

1:35:13

It's fine. Just change it. Exactly. Everyone

1:35:15

be sure and give Jordan a follow.

1:35:17

And of course, follow us on social

1:35:19

media at Rabia and Ellen. Don't forget,

1:35:21

I spell my name with a Y.

1:35:23

We will keep this conversation going on

1:35:25

our Facebook group. And I think we're obvious,

1:35:27

right? I think we need to have a watch party of

1:35:29

the people versus OJ because it is one

1:35:31

of the, it is so well made. It

1:35:34

really does bring us back into the world.

1:35:36

So look out for that on Patreon and

1:35:38

we will have a couple more things to

1:35:41

say about this case and things that came

1:35:43

up very soon. Jordan Bowman, you are a

1:35:45

rock star. We are so glad you took

1:35:47

time out of your Friday afternoon to come

1:35:49

be with us. Thank you. And I'll talk

1:35:51

to you soon. Rabia. Love

1:35:55