0:05

This is the really crazy part . The

0:07

United States Florida

0:09

judge ruled that he

0:11

can have unsupervised visitation

0:13

, which meant I had to

0:15

relinquish my children to him with no

0:18

one not me , not the

0:20

nanny , not anyone supervising

0:22

. Within one hour of his unsupervised

0:25

visitation they were on a plane to Saudi Arabia

0:27

and I never saw my children for

0:29

14 years .

0:35

Hi friends , this is Read

0:37

and Write with Natasha podcast

0:40

. My name is Natasha Tynes

0:42

and I'm an author and a journalist

0:44

. In this channel I talk about the

0:47

writing life , review books and

0:49

interview authors . Hope

0:52

you enjoy the journey . Hi

0:57

everyone , and welcome to another

0:59

episode of Read and Write with Natasha

1:02

. I have with me Patricia

1:04

Bonas . She's an interior designer

1:07

, equestrian

1:14

and an author of Jeddah Bride , which I have here right with me

1:16

. It's a memoir about her journey , marrying into a prominent

1:18

Saudi family and her fight to reunite with her

1:21

children after a devastating

1:23

abduction . With over 30 years

1:25

in interior design , she has worked with ambassadors

1:27

and international leaders . She splits

1:30

her time between Florida and New York with

1:32

her husband and their poodle , Harley . All

1:34

right , so , Patricia , thank you so

1:37

much for joining me today . I think

1:39

I'd like to start with

1:42

me asking you why did you

1:44

decide to tell this story ? I

1:46

mean , it's kind of a stressful

1:49

story . It might be sad , it might

1:51

be traumatic , so I'm just curious to hear why

1:53

did you decide to do this ?

1:55

Well , it was suggested to me

1:57

by every single person that heard my

1:59

story that I should write a book

2:01

. Everyone would say why don't you write a book ? Why don't

2:03

you write a book ? Even I mean

2:05

, my children were kidnapped and I didn't

2:08

see them for 14 years . During those 14

2:10

years , people would always say , write

2:12

a book , write a book . But I couldn't because I

2:14

didn't know how the story would end up . I didn't

2:17

know if I'd ever see them again . So

2:19

I thought , well , no , there's no chance of

2:21

a book . But when I was reunited

2:23

with them , I

2:26

no , there's no chance of a book . But when I was reunited with them , I thought

2:28

about it . That's the first time . It became something that I would consider

2:30

and it seemed like a difficult thing to

2:32

accomplish because I'd never written

2:34

a book and I'm a designer that's

2:36

more visual than a language-based

2:39

endeavor . But I

2:42

started chapter by chapter and

2:44

suddenly I had a book and it

2:46

took about 10 years of chapter by chapter

2:49

. It wasn't that , wasn't even

2:51

easy , but I did it . And then

2:53

I of course asked my children if they

2:55

would object to me

2:57

sharing this book . I love the

2:59

idea that I could finally , once and for

3:01

all , share the story , because

3:04

I feel like there's many people that it

3:06

could help and it could touch , and

3:08

maybe I can even make a change in

3:11

the way international abductions

3:13

are handled in this world

3:15

, Since we're so , you know , we're a world

3:18

where people are traveling all over the place . Students

3:21

in college are encouraged to go

3:23

abroad for a semester . We're always

3:25

mixing and mingling , you know

3:27

. Like they say , airports are the bus station

3:30

of the future . In other words , people

3:34

go on airplanes all the time going traveling

3:36

, and I thought let

3:38

me bring in my experience just

3:40

so that . I can share it with others and

3:42

maybe we can improve this for the rest

3:44

of the world . So that's why we're here

3:46

.

3:47

Fascinating , so okay . So

3:49

where are your children now ? If you don't mind

3:51

me asking , you don't mind me asking

3:53

anything .

3:54

My son , kareem , is a successful

3:57

businessman . He took over the family

3:59

business in Jeddah and

4:01

he lives partially in Jeddah in Europe

4:03

. He's a big show jumper , jumper

4:06

. He's also equestrian , he travels all over

4:08

and he also , I think , lives in Dubai . Okay

4:10

, but not the horse time . Yes , and

4:12

my son that's my son . My daughter , sultana

4:15

, lives in the United States . She

4:17

splits her time between New York and

4:19

Florida because she also is an

4:21

equestrian and she competes

4:24

in the horse shows at this time of the year here

4:26

in Florida , in Wellington .

4:28

So what was the reaction when

4:30

you published the book , especially

4:33

, like you know , revealing intimate details about

4:35

their family ?

4:36

My son said it's

4:39

your story to tell and

4:41

he kind of sighed and he

4:43

was like resigned to

4:48

tell . And he kind of sighed and he was like resigned . But I think he wants

4:51

to like distance himself from having his opinion about it because he does

4:53

live there . But he said he felt that I

4:55

had the right to tell my story . My

4:57

daughter was a little scared , she's

5:00

like whoa , but she's

5:02

afraid that her friends might her

5:05

Saudi friends might get angry . But actually everybody's

5:07

been supportive so I think

5:09

she's okay with it now . Okay

5:11

. Okay , if I asked her to come on a podcast

5:14

and talk , I don't think

5:16

she'd want to get involved with that Because

5:18

she doesn't , you know . And I

5:20

was asked once by one

5:22

of the interviewers like do your children

5:24

know how you suffered ? And

5:27

I was like if they read the book they

5:29

would know . But he goes what do you mean if they read

5:31

the book ? What about you talking to them about it ? And

5:33

I said you know what ? I just don't feel

5:36

the need to

5:38

go into . You know details of

5:40

everything . They

5:43

love their family , they love

5:45

me . Why make

5:47

them choose or tear them apart ? It's

5:49

just , it's just not productive . So

5:51

that's kind of my position on that .

5:54

So , without giving away any spoilers

5:57

, so your kids were living with

5:59

you in the United States . That's

6:01

when they were abducted by

6:03

their father and sent back

6:06

to Saudi Arabia . Is that correct

6:08

? That is correct , okay .

6:10

Do you want me to expound on that ? Yeah , yeah

6:12

, please . We were 10

6:14

years into this marriage and it was a rocky

6:16

one . There were a lot of cultural differences

6:19

that I didn't think were important , that

6:21

after a while they grate on your nerves

6:23

, but we did love each other and

6:26

we were living in Florida believe it or not

6:28

, right here in Wellington at the time , because

6:30

my ex-husband was a polo player . In addition

6:33

to being a lawyer and a

6:35

businessman , he was a polo player and this is

6:37

the capital , the polo capital

6:39

of the year of the world

6:41

during this time of the year . So we lived

6:43

here and we had our two little children Sultana

6:47

was not even two years old she's

6:49

just over a year and Kareem was three

6:51

and we just

6:54

started really having a bad time

6:56

with our marriage . It had to do

6:58

with infidelity and

7:01

when I confronted my husband

7:03

in the book it talks about this when

7:06

I confronted him and said , well , why there's ? You

7:09

know , everyone knows you're having an affair

7:11

with this woman His answer to

7:13

me instead of what he

7:15

used to , what

7:17

he would have said when I first met him , he

7:20

would have said I'm so sorry , I'll never do it again

7:22

. I'm sorry it just got . I was . I don't

7:24

know . I don't know what came over . Whatever , I

7:26

promise Forgive me . Instead of saying

7:29

that , he said look , I'm Saudi and I can have

7:31

four wives , and

7:33

that to me . I don't know if he

7:35

really meant that or if

7:37

he , if he did

7:39

, did really believe that at that point . But

7:41

that's not the man I married . So I said , okay

7:44

, look , this is just not going anywhere , let's

7:46

just get a divorce . So we

7:49

did . I filed for divorce

7:51

and this is the crazy part

7:53

for me . This is the

7:55

really crazy part . The United

7:58

States Florida judge ruled

8:01

that he can have unsupervised

8:03

visitation , which meant

8:05

I had to relinquish my children to him

8:07

with no one not

8:09

me , not the nanny , not anyone

8:11

supervising . Within one hour

8:13

of his unsupervised visitation , they

8:15

were on a plane to Saudi Arabia and

8:18

I never saw my children for 14 years

8:20

. And not only not seeing

8:22

them , I couldn't correspond . I couldn't

8:24

write to them . I could . I sent letters

8:26

, I'd send , toys , I'd send . Nobody told

8:29

me whether they received them

8:31

. I never received any communication

8:33

back . Nobody

8:35

would share with me where they were in school

8:38

, what they were doing , and this

8:40

and none of my

8:42

friends . This was also a little

8:44

bit amazing to me . None of my

8:46

friends there and I knew English girls , spanish

8:49

girls married to Saudis , french girls , american

8:51

nobody would

8:53

break their code of silence . Nobody

8:55

would send me a picture of my children , maybe

8:58

at a gathering , maybe there'd be a birthday

9:00

party . The children would be blowing out

9:02

the candles . My son could have been standing

9:04

next to the birthday boy . Why

9:07

wouldn't any of my friends even send me a picture of

9:09

my son ? I don't know what my children looked

9:11

like when they were eight years old , or 10

9:13

years old , or 12 years old . I don't know what

9:15

they look like . And by the time I found

9:17

my son , he was just turning 18

9:20

. I could have passed him on the street

9:22

and I wouldn't have known that it was

9:24

my son . I didn't know

9:26

what he looked like . So this was the really

9:29

cruel part that I felt was just unacceptable

9:32

.

9:32

So from the very

9:34

first visit he took

9:37

the children , put them on a plane . How did

9:39

you find out that he kidnapped

9:41

them ?

9:42

Well , the nanny was waiting at home at

9:45

our house . I wasn't there . We

9:54

had separated so we were still married . We hadn't divorced yet . I was living

9:56

in our house in Washington DC

9:58

and the nanny was down there with them and he took

10:00

them out to dinner and he

10:02

was allowed to do that and

10:05

they left , they got , went to

10:07

the airport in Miami and boarded a flight . And

10:09

the nanny called me at one o'clock

10:11

in the morning waiting for them to come home

10:13

from dinner . It was already one o'clock and

10:15

he you know he was he was the type that

10:17

he'd go out for dinner very late . He dragged the kids

10:20

around Even

10:25

when we were together we do , we , you know we kept very crazy hours . We're always with

10:27

jet lag and whatever . So I didn't , you know , she didn't think too much

10:29

of it when they weren't home by 10 o'clock , but by one

10:31

o'clock . She was worried at 1am

10:34

and so she called me and she said I have

10:36

bad news the children haven't come home . They

10:39

haven't come home . And

10:41

we started calling people in the middle of

10:43

the night and suddenly we

10:45

received a phone call from a

10:48

lady and

10:50

she said I work on

10:52

Moroccan Airlines and I was told to

10:54

call this number and tell you that your

10:57

children are on a flight to Saudi Arabia

10:59

. So that's how I

11:01

found out exactly what happened and I of course

11:03

, called my in-laws . I said he's

11:05

taken them . They couldn't believe that

11:07

he did that . They were like what ? What's

11:11

going on , you know , but that's

11:13

how it happened Okay .

11:16

So I'm just curious why didn't

11:18

you just jump on the next flight to

11:20

Saudi Arabia to go get the ?

11:22

visa To go in Saudi . I couldn't

11:25

get in there without a visa . I couldn't

11:27

get in there , even when I was married to him , without him

11:29

meeting me at the airport

11:32

. One time I'll tell you , I

11:35

missed my flight and I

11:37

took a different flight . I was in Europe , he was in Saudi

11:39

. We were married . We were fine

11:41

, we didn't have any problems . It

11:43

was so strict there at that time . No , we were fine , we didn't have any problems . It was so strict

11:45

there at that time . Now we're talking . 1989 was when my

11:48

children were yeah , I don't know

11:50

what it's like today , but for an American

11:52

to get a visa you have to be invited by

11:54

either a business or a family , and

11:56

you had to be . You had to go to the

11:58

embassy , have interviews . It took

12:01

me so long to get there . So when I was married

12:03

to him , him I always had to have someone

12:05

meet me at the airport because otherwise they put

12:07

me in custody . American women didn't just

12:09

land in the airport , even

12:11

if you had a visa . You had

12:13

to be picked up by somebody or they'd throw

12:16

you in a room and god knows what

12:18

would happen to . It was very . There were

12:20

a lot of . It was . It was different

12:22

than , um , I don't

12:24

. I've heard a lot of stories . I can't

12:26

confirm them for sure , but women

12:29

unaccompanied were foreign

12:31

. Women unaccompanied were not safe , put

12:34

it that way . So I couldn't . I couldn't go there . They

12:36

would have arrested me and he would have

12:38

had them arrest me , I know . So

12:40

, yeah , I would have been around . It's a lot different

12:43

than other countries in the Middle East , and

12:45

especially in the 80s .

12:47

Yeah , yeah . So

12:49

did you contact the embassy Like what

12:51

did you do the minute you found

12:54

out ?

12:54

Well , I was already in divorce litigation

12:57

in the United States . I had

12:59

the top international lawyer in Washington

13:02

DC defending me top

13:05

international lawyer in Washington DC defending me and I called my lawyer in the morning

13:07

and I said I told you he was the one that said to me you know , I fought

13:09

for a year in court not to give

13:11

visitation to him and

13:14

my lawyer , you know , said

13:16

after about a year he goes you're ridiculous

13:19

, you're never going to get this divorce

13:21

finished if you don't give

13:23

something . You have to give in , you have

13:26

to give him a little something and

13:28

then we'll proceed with the divorce . We've

13:30

been fighting over this custody

13:32

and this visitation

13:35

for a year . You will never be divorced

13:37

if you don't let me settle . So that's why

13:39

I gave up on the idea that he

13:41

should have supervised visitation . So

13:43

I called my lawyer and I told him well , here

13:46

we go , the kids are gone . They're kidnapped

13:48

and he called

13:50

the State Department . He did all this stuff

13:52

. I went to the State Department . I

13:54

mean it was just another whole

13:56

disaster full of meetings

13:59

. And you know , there's something called

14:02

the Warsaw Convention and

14:04

it's a treaty that was made

14:06

in like the 1970s

14:09

I think , maybe 1980

14:11

, maybe . But it was in force , this

14:14

Hague Convention . But Saudi

14:16

did not sign the Hague Convention so

14:19

it wasn't obliged

14:21

. It deals with international child

14:24

abduction wasn't

14:28

obliged . It deals with international child abduction and the Saudis would not sign because they

14:30

have their own laws . They live by Islamic law , that's

14:32

the law of the land , and they don't allow anyone

14:35

else to , you know , force

14:37

them to obey other laws . So

14:40

I was stuck with a country . I didn't

14:42

realize that at the time . Who knew I was stuck with a country ? I didn't

14:44

realize that at the time , who knew I was stuck with a country that just wasn't

14:46

signing any documents

14:49

giving any other legal

14:51

entity rights over my case . So

14:53

I had to go , my children

14:55

were held there by Saudi law in

14:58

that country and that's that . There was

15:00

really nothing I could do , although

15:02

I did fight and I did try . I

15:04

tried different ways of getting

15:06

to them . I tried people that

15:09

I knew that we knew in common . I

15:12

tried , it just was years

15:14

of nothing , no results

15:16

, no results at all .

15:19

What about the Saudi ? The American

15:21

embassy in Saudi ?

15:22

Why didn't , like they , send a representative

15:24

to the house , or when I was

15:26

there and my children were Americans , they had never

15:29

my daughter had never stepped foot in Saudi Arabia

15:31

, you know , and according to the Hague convention

15:33

it's their habitual residence . The

15:35

Hague convention doesn't so much care about

15:37

the parents , it cares about the wellbeing of the children

15:40

. And if a child speaks a certain language

15:42

and they've been educated or raised

15:44

in a certain country and that's the only country they know

15:46

, they would never want

15:48

that child to be transferred to a strange

15:51

country where they don't speak the language , they don't know

15:53

anyone and they don't feel they would have a

15:55

certain amount of visitation . But this

15:57

was all out the door for us . We couldn't

15:59

. We couldn't have that kind of fairness

16:02

and basically

16:04

, actually I think I forgot

16:06

your question .

16:06

I was getting Sorry

16:08

it was . Why didn't the embassy send someone

16:11

so ?

16:11

let me tell you my experience with the

16:14

American embassy , and this is another reason

16:16

I mean I'm the first one to criticize . My

16:18

country allowed this to happen . People

16:20

think America is going to you

16:22

know , do anything for you . Think of all

16:24

the hostages that are being held in other countries

16:26

in America . Half the time they don't even bother

16:29

to get them back . I

16:31

went to the American embassy when I lived in Saudi

16:34

when I was married to my husband . It

16:36

was a few years into the marriage . My mom

16:38

was encouraging me please , you have to go to the embassy

16:41

, you have to meet other Americans

16:43

in Saudi . You

16:50

have to have them register your passport just in case there's ever an uprising

16:52

. You will be safe . You have to have the American embassy know that you're there . And

16:54

I sort of resisted because the family

16:57

really wasn't

16:59

that comfortable about me going alone to the American

17:01

embassy . But I finally said

17:03

look , I'm going . So I had my driver

17:05

bring me over there and I walked in and

17:08

I met . You know there was maybe

17:11

an Egyptian guy taking . You know there

17:13

was nobody else there except me and him in the room and

17:15

he said what are you here for ? I said , well , I'm here to register

17:17

, I'm American . I'm here to register

17:19

with the embassy . I

17:25

wanted to know if there's anything I could do , like gatherings or anything I

17:27

could be involved with , and he looked at me like I was a nut , so I said

17:29

, oh , okay , okay , well , hold on , so he goes into this room

17:31

, he comes out and then this American lady

17:33

comes out I guess she was working

17:36

there in the consulate and

17:38

she said so what are

17:40

you here for ? I said , well , I'm American

17:42

and I want to register my passport

17:45

and I want to do all these things and see

17:47

if there's any other activities Maybe

17:49

maybe there's a tennis group

17:51

or maybe there's a bridge club and

17:54

she says she actually started

17:56

almost crying . I can't even . It

17:59

was the weirdest encounter I've had almost

18:01

in my whole life . She says there's nothing for

18:03

you here , we're not a social club , we're not here . She says there's nothing for you here , we're not a social club

18:06

, we're not here for your amusement

18:08

and there's nothing we can offer you

18:10

. And I said she goes

18:12

, why did you even come here ? So I said

18:14

well , I'm married to a Saudi man

18:16

and I live here , and

18:19

can I register

18:21

my passport ? She says if you

18:23

wish , wish , you can have him photocopy

18:26

that . I think you can have the guy photocopy

18:28

your passport , but we really can't

18:30

help you . You're on your own . Those

18:34

are her words . I'm not lying . You're

18:36

on your own , good luck

18:38

. So that's how they treated me , and

18:41

I've had several experiences with friends

18:43

that were Lebanese background

18:45

, they were Americans , but

18:59

they had . Their grandparents had been born in Lebanon

19:01

, very wealthy , lovely American people

19:03

. They'd gone to Lebanon for

19:06

a wedding , a family wedding , and they thought

19:08

they'd go see the country that they , you

19:10

know , they weren't really familiar with Lebanon

19:12

and it seemed like there was a peaceful

19:14

break between all the different skirmishes

19:17

there and they were excited to go see

19:19

Lebanon . Unfortunately

19:21

, while they were there , there was an invasion

19:24

this is about 15 years ago

19:26

and they had to be . First

19:29

. They called the American embassy . The American embassy

19:31

would not help them . They had to be , you

19:35

know , brought to the country and hidden there

19:37

in somebody's house . Their

19:40

son , who was in New Jersey at

19:42

the time , was calling the embassy , calling

19:45

everything , calling everyone . He knew anyone of influence

19:47

, a senator . Nobody

19:50

could help them and the American embassy

19:52

was not willing to help them . What

19:55

they did , finally , how they got out , was

19:57

the . They had relatives that were also

19:59

Lebanese background , that were Italians

20:01

. They were living in Italy but they were

20:03

at the wedding and they were . They

20:06

went to the Italian embassy . The Italian

20:09

embassy got my

20:11

friends that were American out

20:13

of Lebanon safely . The

20:15

Italian embassy I'm telling you this is

20:17

people don't realize the American

20:20

embassy is not . They

20:22

say it's . We're not a social club and

20:25

we're not you . Come here on your own risk

20:27

, at your own risk . They can't be bothered . And

20:29

I mean that and I fought long

20:31

and hard with the state department on this and this

20:33

is just not their job . They feel it's not their job

20:36

.

20:36

So how did you reunite with

20:38

them after 14 years ? How did

20:40

that happen ?

20:41

I was working in my office . Sitting

20:44

there , I'd pretty much given up

20:46

of anything . I didn't even know where

20:48

I'd lost . So how do

20:50

you even know ? 14 years , all

20:52

I knew they could be living in Zimbabwe

20:54

. I had no idea . I

20:56

had no idea . I got a phone

20:58

call . It was a man that had gone to law

21:01

school in Washington DC with my

21:03

ex-husband . We had lived there for about six

21:05

years . And this friend of his said

21:07

listen , I was

21:11

in Saudi Arabia recently visiting . And

21:14

your daughter ? I

21:16

feel so bad , she needs a mother . I

21:19

feel so bad looking at her . She's

21:21

lost . He goes . Your son

21:23

is like prince of the family . He's doing

21:25

fine . Your

21:27

daughter really isn't . And I decided

21:30

to tell you how to contact them

21:32

. Here's

21:34

the real kicker my son thanks

21:37

to the watch

21:39

list from our State Department that

21:41

he was supposedly on , my son was

21:43

attending boarding school in Indiana

21:45

in the United States

21:47

for the last two years . He had been

21:49

in the United States

21:51

at school . He didn't know how to contact

21:54

me because there was no internet

21:56

. There was no like . He didn't

21:58

even know if it was Patricia Abar , which

22:00

would have been my last name . What was ? I

22:02

don't even know if he knew my maiden name , patricia Bonas

22:05

. He didn't know if I was in Washington

22:07

DC , where we had lived . We had lived in

22:09

Florida , we had never lived in New York . I'd

22:11

gone back to New York because my family was

22:13

there . He

22:18

didn't know so he couldn't contact me . I found out that he was there so I hired

22:20

a private investigator and he was graduating that that month . It

22:22

was May , and he was going

22:25

to go to school , to

22:27

college . So I had the private investigator

22:29

find out where , because I was

22:31

thinking , oh my God , this is crazy . He's going to graduate

22:33

in a week . School's almost over , I

22:35

imagine . All the seniors are having parties

22:38

. I just knew , as from

22:40

being a high school student , I would have died

22:42

of , I would have been mortified if

22:45

my mother showed up at

22:47

my school when I'm having

22:49

my senior prom

22:51

. You know , I would

22:53

have died , and it's a military

22:55

school , also in a boarding school

22:57

. So I knew that this

22:59

is not my time to do this . This is like crash

23:02

and burn , right . So I

23:04

I found out that he was going to be attending

23:06

Boston University in the fall and

23:08

I spent the whole summer preparing

23:11

for how I was going to

23:13

connect with him in the fall and

23:16

actually , because it is such a sad

23:18

story and a lot of crazy stuff

23:20

. I started the book . My first

23:22

chapter started with

23:24

me waking up in the morning that day

23:26

in September , september 2001

23:29

. And I said

23:31

today's the day . He's in

23:33

school for a week , he's already

23:35

gotten his apartment settled . I'm

23:38

going to get in my car , I'm going to drive up

23:40

to Boston right now . I

23:43

prepared my outfit , I prepared

23:45

what I was going to say and

23:47

I just needed to get to him and

23:49

I was going to start

23:51

the relationship . I drove up there

23:54

and that's what happened . I

23:56

got to his door , I knocked on

23:58

the door and he opened the door and

24:00

he looked at me and he smiled

24:03

and he probably I don't know what he was thinking , maybe

24:05

she's delivering something

24:08

, or you know , he goes

24:10

hi . Who are you ? And I

24:12

said I'm your mother . And he was really

24:14

, really shocked . He was as shocked as I was

24:16

. We were both shocked . And he was really

24:18

, really shocked . He was as shocked as I was . We were both shocked . He'd never

24:20

seen me in so long . I used to dye my hair

24:23

very dark . I looked different in pictures . I don't know if he

24:25

even saw a picture of me . He knew what

24:27

I looked like when he was a baby . He was

24:29

like four years old when he didn't see me again

24:31

. But he let me come

24:33

in . I

24:36

begged him . Please , let me in , please , I just want to talk to you . And

24:39

we started our relationship

24:41

getting to know each other again , and so that's

24:43

how I saw Kareem , and after that

24:45

, sultana went to Wellesley it

24:47

was a year later . That's where I went

24:49

so she got in there and I somebody

24:52

gave me her hotmail address , so I started

24:55

emailing her and she also was shocked

24:57

. I emailed her and

24:59

I said Sultana , and she

25:01

goes yeah , and then I said hi

25:04

, it's your mother . She goes oh , come on

25:06

, who is this ? And I said no , this

25:08

is your mother . It really is , truly , she's

25:11

really . And so we started every

25:13

day having conversations on email , and

25:17

then that next year she came to Wellesley . So

25:20

I started we're very close .

25:22

Wow , what a story . So I'm curious

25:24

. The gentleman that called

25:26

you said your daughter needs a mother

25:29

. Why would he wait 14 years

25:31

if he had the information

25:33

before that ?

25:34

No , I don't think he had seen her

25:36

before this . He was not Saudi

25:39

, he was visiting . I don't think he'd seen

25:41

the children until this time

25:43

. I think , you know , my ex-husband would travel

25:45

around . He left the children at his parents'

25:48

house . They weren't even living with him in Saudi

25:50

, they were living with my in-laws , and

25:52

so this friend of his was living

25:55

and working , I believe , in London as

25:57

an attorney and he , you know , maybe

25:59

it happened that time that he decided to come

26:02

and visit Saudi Arabia . I don't think he'd

26:04

ever been there

26:07

before . There were other people that

26:10

actually visited Saudi , but none of them

26:12

would share any information with me

26:14

.

26:14

Were they threatened or why do you think they

26:17

did not help you out ?

26:18

Well , one of these people

26:21

was my brother-in-law . Believe it

26:23

or not , my sister married a

26:25

fellow that was my ex-husband's best

26:27

friend . So my sister's husband was

26:30

doing business with them in Saudi

26:32

. He was Belgian , they were building hotels

26:34

in Europe or something . He wouldn't

26:36

let me know anything

26:38

because of business

26:42

. I think he pursued the friendship with my

26:44

ex-husband just because it

26:46

was a rich Saudi . That's my opinion

26:48

, but he would never

26:50

share anything with me and my sister

26:53

, you know , couldn't get any information

26:55

out of him . And there were other people that

26:57

I would , that I would write to and

26:59

beg me , you know , please send

27:02

me information , send me anything

27:04

, tell me how they're doing . Nobody

27:06

would . Nobody would tell me . So

27:08

I don't know they were . They were either

27:11

faithful to him , they

27:14

maybe he told them . I'm crazy

27:16

, I don't know . I don't know what he

27:19

had done because I was so cut off

27:21

that I was really in the

27:23

dark for all those years .

27:25

So now I think the question did

27:27

he read the book and what

27:30

was his reaction to it ? And

27:33

what about the ? Are you worried about

27:35

, like him , suing or defamation

27:38

or what ? What was the legal like

27:40

when you wrote the book ? Did you consult the lawyer

27:42

?

27:43

Yes , it's

27:45

my story , it's my life and

27:48

I , I , I . I

27:51

don't think there's anything he can do , because everything

27:53

I said was true , everything's absolutely

27:55

true was

28:00

true , everything's absolutely true , and I didn't say a lot of things that I could have said

28:02

because I thought , well , I don't want to go too far . I

28:04

think I was really fair . I

28:06

think I was really really fair .

28:08

Have you heard from him or from the family

28:10

? Oh , no , no , no

28:13

, no .

28:13

I haven't spoken to him . I will tell you

28:15

that I went . I had , I had this . You

28:17

know the book . When I first did

28:20

the first manuscript it was 600

28:22

pages . I cut half of it out in

28:25

order to get it published . No , no , no

28:27

publisher , no editor . Nobody would look

28:29

at a 600 page memoir . That's crazy

28:31

, especially since I'm not famous

28:33

or anything . But

28:35

there was a part . There was a time

28:38

about like

28:40

five , six , seven years ago

28:43

before way before COVID , so let's say seven

28:45

years ago where my

28:47

son was getting married and

28:50

we were very close . He would visit me twice a

28:52

year , like

28:54

in October and April . He'd

28:57

find . You know he had business trips and whenever

28:59

he'd come to do a reunion at

29:01

BU or reunion at Culver

29:03

Academy , he would always stop

29:06

through New York and we'd see each other . I

29:08

used to be living in New York and

29:10

so Kareem

29:13

came to about eight years

29:15

ago and he said to me I have something

29:17

to tell you . So I said what he goes . I

29:19

got engaged . So I said , oh , that's fantastic

29:22

. Tell me about the girl Saudi

29:24

? No , she's not Saudi . Yeah , wait

29:26

, she is Saudi , but we're not having the

29:28

wedding in Saudi . I said no-transcript

29:59

, you're coming to the wedding . You're invited

30:02

, please . So I said , okay

30:04

, fine , I'll come to the wedding . Now

30:06

tell me , how do you want me to come ? Do you want me to

30:08

come alone ? Do you want me to come

30:10

with my other child , amanda

30:13

, which is my third child ? I had a nine-year-old

30:15

at the time . Do

30:23

you want me to come with my husband or do you want whatever you

30:26

want ? You want me to come with grandma , my mom ? I bring grandma Terry . What would

30:28

make it easiest for your family to digest the idea that I am there ? He said , no , bring

30:30

Mitchell . He was my husband . I

30:32

said , cause he liked Mitchell , he goes . Oh , he's a good

30:34

guy , don't worry about it . My dad has a girlfriend

30:36

, nobody cares . Okay , I

30:39

asked him 10 times before I bought the tickets

30:41

. So Mitchell and I fly

30:43

to Dubai and we get there

30:45

. It was lovely . We had a great day the first day , second

30:47

day , then there's the wedding . All of a sudden

30:50

, my two children are like all

30:52

up in arms , my daughter's crying . I

31:04

was like what's going on ? Our father found out that you're coming to the wedding

31:06

and he's very angry and he doesn't want you there . Well , it turned out that the

31:08

bride's parents were the hosts and they said that I was invited and they're not going to throw

31:10

me out . So the whole wedding

31:12

I had to , like stand on a different

31:14

side of the room

31:17

. It was a huge event

31:19

, thank god , and I avoided

31:21

getting anywhere near him . Uh

31:24

, I saw him briefly

31:26

all the way across the across

31:29

the room , but that's it . We never spoke

31:31

. We haven't spoken in 20 years

31:33

. Um , and

31:35

he threatened and my

31:37

children told me that he threatened that because he's very

31:39

friendly , I guess , with the Iman

31:43

or Sultan or whoever is something

31:45

of Dubai . I don't know the ruling family . They're

31:48

what they call themselves King , sultan

31:50

, whatever , whoever

31:53

that person was , my ex-husband

31:55

was going to tell him to throw us out

31:57

of the country . So my husband , I

31:59

quickly jumped on a plane the next day and left

32:01

because I didn't want any issues

32:03

. So I don't think back

32:06

to the book . Is he aware

32:09

that I wrote the book ? I think he's aware

32:11

he's living . He doesn't live in Saudi , he lives in

32:13

Dubai and Spain

32:15

Even he didn't like living there and Spain , even

32:18

he didn't like living there

32:21

. He hasn't done anything yet . I don't think

32:23

he's going to bother . I think he's hoping that it just

32:25

dies . You know , fizzles

32:28

out .

32:31

Okay , are

32:33

you prepared ? Are you prepared if he

32:36

decides to pursue any

32:38

legal battles

32:40

? Yeah , okay , okay , okay , I'm prepared

32:43

Because you know you've been

32:45

and I did some research and

32:47

I've seen you've been on TV shows

32:49

, mostly in the US

32:51

, but you know , now

32:54

on social media , you know people

32:57

might pay attention , anyways . So

32:59

, okay . So

33:01

how did you find your

33:04

publisher and

33:07

or agent or

33:09

how was your publishing journey ? Because you went

33:11

to them and I said I have this memoir . How

33:14

did you attract the publishing world to actually

33:16

sell it and believe you that

33:18

?

33:20

was the hardest part

33:22

of this whole journey getting

33:24

a publisher . It was like the third

33:27

rail Nobody wants to touch it . Yeah

33:29

, I worked for almost

33:32

10 years .

33:33

Okay .

33:33

My daughter , Amanda , was

33:35

doing interviews

33:38

for college . She's

33:46

30 years old now . So we were going to colleges for interviews

33:48

and I was catching up the last touches of the book when I'd be waiting

33:50

, you know , I flew with her to different places

33:52

and I'd be waiting , you know , in the hotel room

33:55

for her to have her interview . And

33:57

I finished up the book and I started

33:59

trying to get it published . At that time I

34:02

tried to get a literary agent first

34:04

, because I didn't know anything

34:06

about books . Like I didn't know . I read

34:08

them . I like reading , but I didn't know what

34:10

it is to have to get published . So I said I can't

34:12

just go to a publisher . No , you can't

34:15

go to a publisher , you need a literary agent

34:17

. So I got and

34:20

then I had to have a format , a book proposal

34:22

. So I

34:24

actually and I actually

34:26

got in touch with Kevin

34:29

Anderson and Associates in New York

34:31

and I

34:33

told them I have this manuscript

34:36

and I need a literary agent

34:38

and I'd like to get it published and I need

34:40

to know how to go about it . And I paid

34:42

them to show

34:44

me how to write a book proposal . They

34:48

said the book's too long , you have to cut it in half

34:50

. All of that .

34:52

And they are what like

34:55

a publishing shop ? No

34:57

, kevin .

34:57

Anderson and Associates are editors

35:00

. They're editors . It's

35:02

an editorial company . And how did

35:04

I find them ? It's my daughter , my

35:07

youngest daughter , who ended up . She's

35:09

an actress now . She does

35:11

a lot of um

35:13

, she gets , she does a lot of things like commercials

35:16

and she does ads for different companies

35:18

. And she came in contact . She was asked

35:21

to do um , the

35:23

voice , voice , um , voicing

35:25

for a , an um , a

35:28

like a report about this company

35:30

. That was an editorial company . And she said Mom

35:32

, there are these companies that exist , they do

35:34

editorial , they edit you . You

35:37

could pay them to edit you , especially

35:39

if you're going to self-publish . Now , I would never self-publish

35:41

, it's just too much to ask . And

35:43

I wanted to have a publisher

35:45

, at least so in case I have legal needs or anything , I thought let me be with a publisher

35:48

at least , so in case I have legal needs or anything , I thought let me

35:50

be with a publisher . So I

35:52

got in touch with the one person

35:54

. I got in touch with Kevin Anderson through

35:57

that , through my daughter , and

35:59

they I said this is what I have . They said well

36:01

, this is how we can help you and we can give

36:04

you the , the , the um , we

36:06

can edit your book and tell

36:08

you what we think you should cut out . And

36:10

, if you know , I pay per pay per per

36:13

word . I had to pay per

36:15

word . And so , kevin Anderson

36:17

and associates they were very good they gave me a lady

36:19

, jennifer , I can't remember her last

36:21

name , but she worked with

36:23

me and she told me , um

36:26

, she said that you've

36:28

written it well , but you have to take more

36:31

, you know . She gave me some stylistic assistance

36:34

and she showed me how to write a

36:36

book proposal . And what we learned was every

36:38

single literary agent has

36:40

a different format that they want to

36:42

receive when they're looking at books

36:45

. So you have to . Some want an outline and

36:47

then an excerpt , a hundred

36:49

words . Some want , you know

36:52

, the first chapter . Some want , you know , everyone

36:54

wants something different and

36:56

nobody wants the full manuscript

36:59

. I can tell you that much . And so we proceeded

37:01

, my daughter and I , cause

37:03

she wanted to help me with this . Um

37:05

, we proceeded to create book

37:08

proposals and send them out to every

37:10

single literary

37:12

agent that was doing memoirs

37:14

or anything

37:17

about the Middle East , and

37:19

we finally found a literary agent , keith

37:21

Corman , and he found

37:24

me the publisher . Once you have a literary

37:26

agent agent , then you go to the publishers and

37:28

the publisher . One

37:31

of the things that made them attracted

37:33

to my book was the um

37:36

, I think the the invasion

37:38

of um , the war

37:40

and um a year and a

37:42

half ago and in october , and this

37:45

in gaza okay if

37:47

they thought that that was a

37:50

point of interest . People would be

37:52

interested to have an insight

37:54

. Yeah , I'm looking at it . Yeah , and

37:56

then it was . You know , I

37:58

met them about three months after the invasion

38:01

or after the war

38:03

started , or whatever

38:05

one would call it , um , and

38:07

I guess that was a hot topic . I

38:10

also had a little bit of interest during the

38:12

gulf war , which was a very

38:14

long time ago , but I hadn't I

38:17

hadn't gotten my children back and

38:19

I hadn't um written

38:21

a book , and someone suggested that would

38:24

you write a book ? And I'm like I

38:26

haven't written a book , why would ? Would I write a book ? I

38:28

mean like so I guess sometimes

38:30

when there's interest , you

38:32

know , when there are events happening

38:35

in the Middle East , they look

38:37

around for people that my openness

38:39

and my authenticity was what decided that this

38:55

story should be told . That's what they said

38:57

.

38:58

Okay . So I'm

39:00

curious did anyone from

39:03

the Middle East see

39:05

it or did you get any reaction ? I

39:08

mean , besides the family like regular readers on Goodreads or any of those reviews

39:10

. Did you get any reaction ? I mean , besides the family like regular readers on goodreads or any

39:12

of those reviews did you get ?

39:14

and I've had probably been the

39:16

most positive of

39:18

reactions I've had . Okay

39:21

, I'll tell you what happened . There was a big article in the

39:23

daily mail about

39:25

a month , a month ago , I

39:27

almost died . When I saw that

39:29

, I almost died , I was like , because

39:33

I know , like every Saudi

39:35

that knows me and every middle

39:37

, they all go to London and this is I

39:40

was like , oh dear God , when I was reading

39:42

it I was so scared that

39:44

it would say something

39:46

like maybe turn it into like

39:48

a tabloid , like gossip or

39:50

something I don't know . I didn't want them

39:52

to stray from the truth . I

39:55

was afraid they'd exaggerate and make it

39:57

like , really look , you know , I just didn't know

39:59

what they were going to say . So I read the

40:01

whole thing , Like , thank God , thank God , it's

40:03

not . It's not like they said something

40:05

crazy that was not true or

40:07

something like they exaggerated my

40:09

book . Thank God , okay , so , okay . So

40:11

I was holding my breath and

40:14

I started getting emails and texts and

40:16

a call from , first of all , from my daughter , sultana

40:18

. She said Valerie one of

40:20

the ladies that I wrote about in the

40:22

book she was a relative , she was married to my

40:24

husband's cousin was so

40:26

excited and she's asking for

40:28

an autographed copy . And another

40:31

friend of mine that I wrote about in the book

40:33

also was asking

40:35

for an autographed copy . And they're all excited

40:37

and everybody's

40:40

been texting me . I had one lady

40:42

text me . She says oh my God , patricia , I

40:44

read your book . I cried all day

40:46

. Do you remember me ? Our

40:48

children played together . She

40:50

was , um , she

40:52

was , uh , not Saudi

40:54

, but she was married to a Saudi . I think she was

40:57

Jordanian , I think I don't

40:59

remember . But she said my children , my

41:01

, my husband and I , are divorced . My children

41:03

are married and living all around the world

41:05

, but I wondered

41:07

what happened when your

41:10

children came back to Saudi with

41:12

their dad ? But you were not there

41:14

and nobody knew what had happened

41:17

. The family kept it very secretive

41:19

. And now my heart

41:21

breaks to know this story actually

41:23

happened to you . This is the kind of reaction

41:26

I'm receiving from people . Yeah

41:28

, I haven't , nobody criticized me

41:30

so far .

41:31

Do you have plans to translate it into

41:33

Arabic ? Okay , let me tell you what happened

41:36

.

41:38

I have a very good friend who's Brazilian

41:40

, patricia Mansour . She's also in

41:42

the book and she

41:44

was married to a very

41:46

, very wealthy man and they played

41:49

polo . They flew all over the world . I

41:51

loved her . She was very sweet and

41:53

she begged me . She couldn't

41:55

get the book . She heard about the book . She

41:58

couldn't get the book in Brazil . I don't

42:00

believe they allow Amazon to sell

42:02

books there . I think there's something

42:04

about Brazil . They cannot , I

42:07

don't know . They can't get through

42:09

. So what I did is I took five books

42:11

. I put them in a box , stuffed it with , you

42:13

know , plastic and wrapper

42:15

and sent this . It took a month

42:17

for her to get it , but she finally received it

42:19

. She took a picture of herself holding

42:22

it and sent it to me on Instagram

42:24

. After she read it and

42:26

all her friends read the book , she said

42:28

I want to publish it in brazil . I want , and

42:30

she's you know , she's a very important lady

42:33

married to an important rich man , so

42:35

she she feels like

42:38

she can . I said it's not that easy to do

42:40

that that you've never published . You don't . You

42:42

have to get a . I don't know how to do it . She

42:44

goes well , we need to get it translated , so I said well

42:46

, that's the easy part , I can easily because my

42:48

daughter does voiceovers . My daughter

42:52

can get me introduced to the top

42:54

translators anywhere

42:56

. That's not the big deal . The big deal is , I think

42:59

Brazil has its own publishing law , so

43:01

we have to get a Brazilian publisher

43:03

to publish the book and

43:05

I have all those rights . I didn't

43:07

give those rights away to my publisher

43:09

here in America . I've got the international rights . So

43:12

I was thinking we were

43:14

exploring this just last week . As

43:17

far as I would translate it to

43:19

Arabic , I definitely would and

43:21

I would have the publisher . But we need a Middle

43:23

Eastern publisher or someone that gets

43:26

you . Know , I don't know . I think there's ways . In each country

43:28

they have copyright laws and publishing . Know , I don't know . I think there's ways . In each country they have copyright

43:30

laws and publishing laws . I

43:32

don't know . This is not my area of expertise

43:35

. Somebody would want to do that , would

43:37

have to want to do that with

43:39

me , and they'd have to do a lot of work on

43:41

it , but I would definitely grant

43:43

rights . I think I

43:46

really told the truth . I actually loved

43:48

my Saudi family

43:50

In the end of the book . I

43:52

can't even read it out loud because it makes me

43:54

cry every time I read it . My

43:59

father-in-law , my ex-father-in-law

44:01

, invited me to London and

44:04

he had come several , several times to

44:06

America since I had been reunited

44:08

with my children and I saw him with the

44:10

children and he

44:13

saw my third , my

44:15

third child , my daughter Amanda , and

44:17

he called her his granddaughter

44:20

and I said I'm Abdullah , why

44:23

, why are you calling her your granddaughter ? Because

44:25

you're my daughter and she's your daughter , so I'm her grandfather , and he told

44:27

her that . And she and she's your daughter , so I'm her grandfather

44:29

, and he told her that . And she

44:32

, she's like mom , they're

44:34

. So that's so weird . They

44:36

kept the kids in the kid

44:38

. I said you know what ? My

44:41

final take takeaway

44:43

is that this is the culture

44:45

. It's a harsh , ancient

44:47

culture . It's very rigid . They

44:50

follow the rules . They

44:53

love you , but they have tough love

44:55

. They make you follow the

44:57

rules , but they still love you , and

44:59

this happened the way they raised their kids

45:02

. Oftentimes , you know

45:04

, there's just a harshness

45:06

about Saudi Arabia that is what

45:08

it is and very

45:10

strong religious beliefs

45:13

and they follow those beliefs and

45:15

that's that you can't bend

45:17

. You cannot bend those

45:20

rules . So my father-in-law still

45:22

said he loves me and my mother-in-law

45:24

? She was sick with cancer

45:27

and

45:29

she called me from Saudi Arabia and she said you're my daughter

45:31

, I want you to know that , and

45:33

I'm I'm going to die , but I

45:36

die loving you and

45:38

you're my daughter , don't ever forget

45:40

. So this , this is

45:42

. You

45:45

know , how can you hate I ? I don't hate

45:47

anyone , I

45:49

don't . This is their culture . I

45:52

was not kidnapped into that culture , I

45:55

went voluntarily . So I'm not

45:57

going to start

45:59

judging and saying

46:01

they did this wrong , they did that wrong . That's their culture

46:04

. I was very naive . I let myself

46:06

get involved way over my head . I

46:08

do judge , though , my American culture

46:10

, my American State Department

46:13

and my American government and

46:15

law system . That did not serve

46:17

me at all and I also don't like that

46:19

. Internationally , we don't have sets

46:22

of rules and laws , because children

46:25

are really getting the brunt

46:27

of it . So I have criticism

46:29

, but I really don't criticize Saudi

46:31

, so I wouldn't care

46:34

if it were published . This is a true story that

46:36

happened in the 1980s . It really did happen

46:38

.

46:38

Did they compare you to the movie Not Without

46:41

my Daughter and stuff like that ?

46:43

Everyone tries to , but it's a different story

46:45

, because I was in Iran and she was

46:47

in Iran when this happened . I was in America

46:50

. That's the weird part . Everyone

46:52

assumes that I was

46:54

in Saudi when they were kidnapped , but no

46:56

, they wouldn't have been kidnapped . I would have

46:58

been thrown out or prevented

47:01

from seeing them , but no , this

47:03

happened in America . This is an American

47:05

story .

47:07

Okay , so you mentioned

47:09

cultural differences . When you first

47:11

got married , what were the main cultural differences

47:14

that you think led

47:16

to the break of

47:18

the marriage or the breakup of the marriage

47:20

?

47:20

Well , cultural differences . My

47:23

husband didn't want me to work . Okay , that

47:26

was one cultural difference . In his country

47:28

women were not allowed to work at the time . Now

47:30

they do . Now they are allowed

47:33

to work . I

47:35

don't know how rigid

47:37

it is Like . I don't think any woman's allowed in government

47:39

. I don't think any woman's allowed in

47:43

. I don't know if

47:45

they're allowed on TV , maybe with covering

47:48

and everything . I don't know if they're

47:50

allowed on TV , maybe with covering and everything , but

47:56

at the time that I was there and living there , the only job they were allowed

47:58

to have and they'd have to be educated abroad would

48:00

be a gynecologist or a teacher , and

48:03

they had to wear full rotra

48:06

and tarha

48:08

and totally

48:10

like this is what you'd see like a nun

48:12

, like a Catholic nun , and

48:15

they were not allowed to . You know

48:17

they were . It was . They had to behave above

48:20

reproach or they would easily be

48:22

, you know , dismissed . So it was

48:24

very tough . So that was one thing

48:26

. I wanted to be an interior designer . I am now

48:29

an interior designer . So I got a job

48:31

. This was funny . I was living in Saudi

48:33

at the time and somebody told me

48:36

we're going to recommend you to this prince

48:38

and his wife . She just had a baby

48:40

or she's having a baby and they need the nursery

48:42

redesigned or designed

48:45

. It's their first child . So I was all excited oh

48:47

my God , I'm going first job in

48:49

Saudi . So I told my husband I've

48:52

got a job , I'm decorating a nursery

48:54

, I'm going to be with the princess and he's

48:56

like you're not going into their , their house

48:59

, they're not , you're not allowed to go into their palace

49:01

. You can't go . You can't go in there . So

49:04

I said , why not he goes . Are

49:06

you out of your mind ? You , you're

49:09

my wife . You can't go into some other man's

49:11

house , you can't do

49:13

the job . So I had to contact them and say

49:15

sorry , my husband won't let me come . My

49:18

husband won't let me come to your house . So that

49:20

was the end of that job . Other

49:22

cultural differences I'd studied art history

49:25

. I had a master's degree in art history

49:27

from college and graduate school . I

49:29

wanted to open a gallery in Saudi

49:32

. No art was allowed

49:34

. You couldn't even smuggle it in

49:36

I could . There

49:39

was no art at the time . Now , from what

49:41

I understand , that has eased up

49:43

. But in 1980 , there

49:46

were no galleries , no art

49:48

. What else ? Cultural differences ? The cheating

49:51

, the cheating . Um , men

49:53

cheat women and men cheat

49:55

all over the world . We know that . Let's not be

49:58

naive . But the

50:00

idea that I have no right

50:02

to be angry if my husband , if I

50:04

catch that , he's , you know , been with another woman

50:07

I don't

50:09

know it just was . He

50:11

was so far this way and I was so far that way , I

50:13

, you know , I mean it

50:16

was shocking to me . I didn't come from a family

50:18

where my dad or my mom cheated

50:21

or did anything like that . So

50:25

I wasn't used to that . You

50:27

know , I don't know . Oh , by the way , I became a Muslim

50:29

. I had to in order for King Thasal

50:32

to approve the marriage

50:34

. And

50:37

why did he want me to do that ? It wasn't

50:40

that he wanted me to convert and to be

50:42

a devout Muslim . I don't think that

50:44

would have been something you could ask anyone

50:47

to do . They'd have to do it of their own volition

50:49

. That would have been something you could ask

50:51

anyone to do . They'd have to do it of their own volition

50:53

. But what he wanted in my

50:55

conversion and I did it he wanted me to now have to adhere

50:57

to Islamic law . He

51:00

said there's too many girls marrying

51:02

into Saudi Arabia , foreign

51:04

girls that aren't Islam

51:06

, aren't Muslims , and they don't

51:09

understand Islam and they don't want

51:11

to adhere to our laws . Our laws are

51:13

the religious laws and

51:15

I want every girl from now on

51:17

, that foreigner has to become a Muslim

51:19

. I , you know , my husband at

51:21

the time my , I mean my fiance

51:23

at the time was actually shocked

51:25

because I was the first case that

51:27

had to do that . Before that

51:29

, the girls came and they were Christians most of

51:31

them , and they could just

51:33

keep their Christianity . But it was

51:36

getting a little crazy . It was after the oil boom

51:38

and I think there were a lot of girls wanting

51:41

to marry a rich Saudi or something , I don't know . So

51:44

I did become a Muslim First

51:48

. My husband said . My fiance said you

51:50

don't have to do it . I'm sorry , that's

51:52

a little crazy . We didn't think they'd ask

51:54

you that you don't have to do it . I

51:56

can give you an apartment in London and

51:58

you can live there and I'll come and visit you

52:01

and I'm thinking I love him

52:03

. And then he's going to go back home

52:05

and his mom is going to match him up and

52:07

he's . I can't stop . And now I'll be

52:09

stuck in London living there , and I

52:12

don't want to go . I don't want to do that . I'm not going to be like

52:14

a kept woman . I kind of don't

52:16

see myself that way . So I said no

52:18

, no , no , no , no . Let me see how hard is it to

52:20

become a Muslim ? So I went to to do was learn the prayers

52:23

and declare that I want to be

52:30

a Muslim . And I learned the prayers

52:32

and I demonstrated the prayers

52:35

to the mullah and then he gave

52:37

me a certificate , so now I was a Muslim . So

52:39

the family was overjoyed

52:42

. They were so overjoyed , they

52:44

loved it , they were so happy . They

52:47

took me tocca the ladies of

52:49

the family took me not on a Hajj

52:51

, but on a Umrah , which is any

52:53

other time of the year , and

52:56

I had a whole chapter about going to Mecca

52:58

. It was the most extraordinary , powerful

53:01

thing and spiritual experience

53:03

I've ever had and it

53:05

was really a very good

53:08

experience . I wish I could have gone back a second

53:10

time , and you

53:12

know that I

53:15

don't know . I found that

53:17

embracing that

53:19

culture , that religion , helped

53:22

me understand the family more and my

53:24

children obviously are Muslims and I understand

53:26

. I'm very glad , I'm very happy for

53:28

everything I did . The only thing I'm not happy about

53:30

is that , you

53:32

know , my husband and I divorced and this

53:35

problem happened . I'm telling you , if , if , if

53:37

he had not kidnapped the children and

53:39

if he had agreed to be on good

53:42

terms with me , I

53:44

would be , I would still be friends with that

53:46

. You know , with all of them

53:48

I didn't object to anything they

53:50

did ever , except

53:52

take my kids and stop me from seeing my

53:54

kids . That's it .

53:56

Do you still identify as Muslim ? Well

53:58

, I haven't changed anything

54:01

.

54:01

I never

54:03

practiced seriously . I

54:06

mean , I did when I was there . I'm

54:08

just sort of me . I'm

54:12

sort of me , I'm a little

54:14

bit mixed up . I have to say I've

54:19

always been the kind of a person that

54:21

and you know , I think a lot of people don't realize

54:23

how similar all the religions are

54:25

yeah , the monotheistic

54:28

religions . We all have a day of

54:30

worship Friday , saturday , sunday . We

54:33

all have prayers . That's how we

54:35

do it . We don't , you

54:37

know , we don't burn people

54:40

and sacrifice people . We have prayers

54:42

. We have buildings

54:44

or mosques or synagogues or

54:46

churches that we go to . We

54:49

have the Ten Commandments , we have

54:51

Abraham , we have Moses , we have

54:53

all those things . We have a whole history and

54:56

Adam and Eve and the creation , and

54:58

so it's actually not that different . It's

55:00

just the nuances which

55:03

are more cultural . I see

55:05

them as being more cultural .

55:06

So what does the future

55:09

hold for Patricia in

55:11

terms of promoting the

55:13

story or publishing the story ? Are

55:15

you going to go on a tour in

55:17

the Middle East , Like ? What is your

55:20

plan now ?

55:22

I never was invited . I would do

55:25

almost anything to

55:27

promote the book . I'm not against

55:29

it . You'd be surprised

55:32

how well . Maybe you wouldn't

55:34

be surprised how

55:37

tough it is to have

55:40

people hear you and see you and

55:42

listen to you Right

55:44

now . Yes , I'm getting a lot of podcasts

55:47

and whatever

55:49

you know , I'm going to be in Florida weekly

55:51

there . You know we're putting , but

55:54

I don't think this is going to go on forever . I think

55:56

if I don't keep pushing and promoting

55:58

it , I think Jetta Bride will like

56:00

slip into . I don't

56:03

know , maybe I would get a series

56:05

, a TV series . Everyone says that I didn't

56:07

come up with that myself . If you look

56:09

on Amazon , there's dozens of

56:11

people that have reviewed the book and said

56:13

I could see this as the most exciting

56:15

podcast or movie . I think it's a little long

56:18

to be a movie but a podcast maybe . I

56:20

mean that might be the second wind

56:22

. But I've

56:24

got a life . I ride , I have kids

56:26

, I have a . Maybe one day I'll be

56:29

a grandmother . I've got

56:31

so many things and my my

56:33

publisher wants , wants me to write

56:35

a second book . You

56:37

know I can , I

56:39

don't know . I may do all

56:41

of the above or none of the above , but

56:43

I don't think I'm going to continue

56:46

to push this book

56:48

unless it gets so much

56:50

steam . I'm letting the world

56:52

and the universe tell me what

56:55

to do on Jedabride . If people are

56:57

still interested and still want to talk

56:59

to me about it , I will keep going . If

57:01

people stop , then I will just say

57:03

chapter's over

57:05

. I wrote a book . It was a good run

57:08

. Now I'm going back to my life to

57:10

do something else , so I'm not particularly

57:12

you know what I mean Like there's so many books

57:15

. I'm looking at you and all

57:17

the books behind you . There's gazillions

57:20

of books . There was one day where on

57:22

Amazon , I was the number one new release

57:24

. Why ? Because I had

57:26

just launched the paperback version and

57:29

I guess , with the number of people that were reading it and

57:31

all the , I guess for some reason , it

57:33

was number one out of all the new releases

57:35

and it was number one in Middle East books . But

57:39

now it isn't . It's like the ocean . You

57:42

walk up on the shore , then you , you

57:44

swept back into the ocean and you could

57:46

end up on another continent . It's just

57:48

a big world out there of books . So I don't

57:50

know , I don't know . I'm

57:52

going with the flow .

57:53

That's right . So , patricia , this has been wonderful

57:56

and thank you for joining

57:58

me today . Is there anything you want to

58:01

say before we conclude ? I mean

58:03

, people can find your book on Amazon , I

58:05

guess , at the bookstore . Anything

58:07

else you would like to conclude with

58:09

A ?

58:09

few things Amazon , barnes , noble

58:12

. We have the hard copy , we have the paperback

58:14

, I have a Kindle

58:17

version and we just launched

58:19

this week the audio book

58:21

, because a lot of people don't want to read , they want to

58:23

do audio . So I have all of that

58:25

available . And one other

58:28

thing I'd like to say I was this is very

58:30

important and interesting . I think , uh

58:32

, there is an ngo , a charity called find

58:35

my parent and I had contacted

58:38

them years ago . They've asked me

58:40

to be on the board because my book

58:42

is exactly what

58:44

they're trying to fix

58:47

in this world . It's

58:49

about child abduction . They are trying

58:51

very hard to get better coordination

58:54

between countries , returning parents

58:57

or allowing visitation between

58:59

one country and the other , and it doesn't just

59:01

happen with Saudi Arabia , it

59:03

happens with every country in the world practically

59:06

. Japan has signed the the

59:12

Hague Convention , but Japan

59:14

protects a child . If the mother

59:16

or the father , who's Japanese , brings their child

59:19

back to Japan , the parent

59:21

will not be able to be granted

59:23

to see the child . And there's

59:25

parents that their own children don't

59:27

even speak English . They were abducted at a young

59:29

age and they're in a foreign country and

59:31

they can't even speak the language of their other

59:34

parent . So it's not just women , it's not

59:36

just men , it's not just Saudi , it's not just

59:38

. It's the whole world problem . And so

59:40

that's why I'm actually working with

59:42

that now , with Find my Parent

59:44

, and that may turn into even more

59:46

than the book , but

59:50

it sort of intertwines with

59:52

my book , because my book gives

59:54

a raw , real , honest , in-depth

59:58

explanation of what it feels

1:00:00

like to lose your child to international

1:00:03

child abduction . So who

1:00:05

knows what's going to happen ? Yeah , yeah Well .

1:00:06

I wish you the best of luck , patricia . International child abduction so who knows what's going

1:00:08

to happen ? Yeah Well , I wish you the best of luck

1:00:11

, patricia , and thank you for

1:00:13

joining me today and for anyone

1:00:15

who's listening or watching . Thank you for joining

1:00:18

us today for another episode of

1:00:20

Read and Write with Natasha , and until

1:00:22

we meet again , thank you so much .

1:00:24

Natasha , I enjoyed enormously . I

1:00:26

enjoyed speaking to you . Thank you , take

1:00:28

care .

1:00:32

Thank you for tuning in to Read

1:00:35

and Write with Natasha . I'm your

1:00:37

host , natasha Tynes . If

1:00:39

today's episode inspired

1:00:41

you in any way , please

1:00:43

take the time to review the podcast

1:00:46

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and share this podcast

1:00:50

with fellow book lovers . Until

1:00:53

next time . Happy reading

1:00:55

, happy writing .