0:00

Hello and welcome to

0:02

Real Crime Profile.

0:04

This is Jim

0:06

Clemente, retired FBI

0:08

profile, a former

0:10

New York City

0:13

prosecutor and write

0:15

producer of criminal minds

0:17

and blue beard on

0:20

audible. And with me

0:23

today is a special

0:25

guest that always remains

0:28

anonymous. Mr. Smith, feels

0:30

good to be back, Jim. And what

0:32

is your specialty? I

0:35

am a cybersecurity analyst

0:37

and information technologist.

0:39

And don't you know a thing or two

0:41

about hacking as well? I

0:44

won't say that on record, but

0:46

yes, I do. All right, so today we're

0:48

going to be drawing upon

0:50

your experiences to talk about

0:53

a phenomenon, a horrific thing that's

0:55

been going on. And that

0:57

is... People have been lured

1:00

from China from Africa

1:02

from all over the world

1:04

to Thailand for business

1:07

opportunities for high paying

1:09

jobs for You know exceptional

1:12

experiences things like that and

1:14

as soon as they get

1:17

picked up at the airport

1:19

they get driven Right across

1:22

the border into Myanmar

1:24

and they are put

1:26

into a compound has high

1:29

walls around it, security

1:31

fencing, and armed guards.

1:33

And they may even

1:35

be government guards, but

1:38

these people are then

1:40

kept there for days, weeks,

1:42

months, even years. And

1:44

this is not a handful

1:47

of people. This is

1:49

thousands of people, right?

1:51

Yes. What we know of

1:53

currently. Yeah. The only reason we've talked

1:55

about this before on real crime

1:57

profile and best case worst case.

2:00

The fact is that this has

2:02

been going on for a long time

2:04

only it's in Myanmar and

2:06

Myanmar is going through all

2:09

sorts of political turmoil and

2:11

China is kind of backing

2:13

the leadership there But they're

2:16

not interfering with all these

2:18

fraud schemes and I wanted to

2:20

talk to you today a little

2:22

bit about what kind of Fraud

2:25

schemes they are. It's a

2:27

weird word called mummers, right? What's

2:29

that mean? Well, mummers, just

2:31

like fishing, like fishing and

2:33

other type of online scams,

2:35

originates from essentially using victims'

2:38

vulnerabilities against them in a

2:40

very critical time of their

2:42

life or just lack of permission. Right,

2:44

but aren't they also like, they're

2:46

sort of threatening scams? In other

2:48

words, it's not like, hey, you

2:50

want to donate to this charity?

2:53

Hey, you want to help out

2:55

this poor person? Hey, you want

2:57

to, you know. buy something and

2:59

then it's nothing there. It's not

3:01

just those kinds of scams, right?

3:03

It's scams where they claim. The more

3:05

sophisticated, compared to like the

3:07

one that we're used to like

3:10

the Nigerian scam, the print scam,

3:12

members are more customized to victims

3:14

where they essentially take the time

3:16

to get to know what you're

3:19

vulnerable to, either between your financial

3:21

or government status as a, let's

3:23

say, international student, or anything

3:26

that you... that will put you

3:28

at risk to a financial help.

3:30

They might say you owe money

3:32

to the IRS or we've caught

3:34

you on a illegal website and

3:37

the FBI is coming to get

3:39

you and you have to pay

3:41

this fine or you know all

3:43

sorts of things like that. Social

3:45

Security scams, all sorts of scams

3:48

that that are aimed at getting

3:50

someone like you said very

3:52

vulnerable people to actually put

3:54

money in or give them

3:57

their banking information so they

3:59

can steal money from them

4:02

and this is what

4:04

these these compounds and

4:06

these are not tiny

4:08

little places these are

4:10

massive warehouse-sized rooms filled

4:12

with people thousands of

4:15

people who are forced day and

4:17

night to actually commit these

4:19

scams in other words the

4:22

people who are actually doing

4:24

the scamming are are actually

4:27

being abducted and held against

4:29

their will and forced to do

4:31

these scams. And that's the sadly

4:33

the unique part about members compared

4:35

to other scams. They both

4:38

use your vulnerabilities and what

4:40

you seek and financial repair

4:42

investments. So for example

4:44

it could be a high paying

4:46

job opportunity. Well but isn't that

4:48

what they're doing to get the

4:51

people in there? What I'm talking

4:53

about first is... what they're doing

4:55

in those rooms, how, what kind

4:58

of fraud are they reaching out

5:00

to people across the oceans?

5:02

I mean, probably in

5:04

China, probably in Thailand

5:07

as well, but most

5:09

likely in, in, you

5:11

know, United States, in, in,

5:13

sorry, Europe, and Asia, Australia,

5:15

they reach out to people

5:17

all over the world, and...

5:19

and convince them that they're

5:22

in trouble, that they're not

5:24

going to get away with

5:26

it, that the government is

5:28

coming after them, the only

5:30

way to stop it is

5:32

to pay money or give

5:34

this kind of information, that

5:36

information is used again to

5:38

steal money from them. But

5:40

all right, let's transition,

5:42

let's talk about how they get

5:44

these people to come to Thailand.

5:47

And the reason why this has

5:49

become... actually more of a

5:51

news item because this has been

5:53

going on for years. The reason

5:55

why it's become more of a news

5:58

item is because an actor... a Chinese

6:00

actor actually got caught up in

6:02

the scam didn't he? Yes

6:04

and it would and I believe

6:07

him being essentially kidnapped

6:09

brought more concern to

6:11

this issue more attention

6:13

to it and so what they

6:16

generally do is they and I

6:18

we covered in the past an

6:20

African gentleman who was trying to

6:23

get Money to get work and

6:25

he heard about this job and

6:27

he flew all the way to

6:29

Thailand and when he got picked

6:31

up at the airport He was

6:33

put into a van and

6:36

didn't know the language didn't

6:38

know where he was going,

6:40

but he was driven directly

6:42

Across the border into Myanmar

6:44

and the thing about it

6:47

is it's just a

6:49

little river separating Thailand

6:51

from Myanmar. So that Little

6:53

drive, you know when he

6:55

finally realized that he wasn't

6:58

going to a place that

7:00

seemed like it was going

7:02

to be the employment that

7:04

he was promised It was

7:07

already too late. He was

7:09

in a foreign country. There

7:11

were soldier type guards with

7:13

heavy machine guns and other

7:16

weapons and he was brought

7:18

there for a long time

7:20

and while they're there They're

7:22

treating them basically like

7:25

captive slaves Yes, they are so

7:27

the actor essentially referenced once

7:29

he was rescued that one

7:31

of the test Essentially abused

7:34

they put him through is a

7:36

typing speed test and it was

7:38

essentially 80 words a minute, which

7:41

is in my opinion a very

7:43

fast. Yeah, that's a secondary level

7:45

worth of speech. Yeah, that's that's

7:48

legal secretary essentially and he also

7:50

Said that when he did not

7:52

want to abuse was right so

7:54

they they force them to do

7:57

these scams and then they give

7:59

him qua like you have to

8:01

type 80 words a minute

8:03

and be able to continuously type

8:05

and hit all these potential

8:07

victims. And then if you don't

8:09

meet your quotas, then

8:11

you get beatings and you

8:14

don't get to sleep, you don't

8:16

get to eat, and then they

8:18

elevate it if people try to

8:20

escape or try to get word

8:22

out, they torture

8:24

them. They torture them. This

8:26

is just the most horrific

8:28

thing that's happening right now.

8:31

And it's, of course, like

8:33

you said earlier, it's happening

8:35

to the most vulnerable people

8:37

because these are people who

8:39

need the money, who are willing to

8:41

travel that far for a good

8:43

job, but they meant to go there

8:45

to work for money. When

8:48

they get there, they're not making any

8:50

money. They're being held against their will

8:53

and they're being forced to

8:55

make money for their captors. They

8:58

aren't taking a penny home. They are

9:00

sending a penny home and there

9:02

are literally thousands of people around

9:04

the world who are missing

9:06

and most likely in

9:08

these compounds. And this

9:11

came to light, of

9:13

course, because the actor, and

9:16

I'm gonna say his name

9:19

hopefully Wang Xing, I think is his

9:21

name, and he's 31

9:23

years old and he's

9:25

a bright young guy

9:27

and he had done

9:29

work actually acting work

9:31

in Thailand before

9:34

and what these guys did to

9:36

lure him in was they used the

9:38

name of the company that actually had

9:40

hired him in Thailand before. So

9:43

the story that he tells that he

9:45

essentially used a famous instant messages

9:47

known as Weibo, sorry, WeChat and

9:49

they essentially lured him in from his

9:51

previous job that he did there to

9:54

offer him a new opportunity. So

9:56

him traveling from Beijing

9:58

to Bangkok. he was

10:00

probably assuming there was another

10:03

opportunity that he was getting.

10:05

And that's how essentially starting,

10:07

but what's unique about a

10:09

member compared to other scams

10:12

is they essentially play on

10:14

both sides victims, both vulnerable

10:16

and people who were not

10:18

assumed to be victims of

10:21

it. Right, right. And so

10:23

in this case, he basically

10:25

gets there, gets immediately shuttled

10:27

into Myanmar and put into

10:30

one of these compounds. Now,

10:32

luckily, he's a famous person.

10:34

And when he went missing,

10:36

I believe that China probably

10:39

put pressure on Myanmar or

10:41

Thailand to go in and

10:43

get him out. Put the

10:45

news out that her boyfriend

10:47

was missing where essentially put

10:50

pressure on his other friends

10:52

to share the news So

10:54

it's essentially the version of

10:56

our famous actors putting pressures

10:59

of another makes an actor

11:01

which essentially pressures the government

11:03

to pressure So I mean

11:05

he was he was reported

11:08

missing on January 7th and

11:10

they got him out very

11:12

quickly and the thing is

11:14

he was reported missing on

11:17

January 7th and they got

11:19

him out very quickly and

11:21

the thing is he was

11:23

in Mayawadi, I think is

11:26

the name of the town.

11:28

So essentially, yeah, he flew

11:30

into Bangkok. Yeah, and then

11:32

they drove him across the

11:35

border into Myanmar. And luckily,

11:37

the Thailand officials somehow were

11:39

able to get in there

11:41

and get him out. Now,

11:44

was it because they know

11:46

the people that are holding

11:48

these compounds? I mean, literally,

11:50

there's indications that could be...

11:52

hundreds of thousands of people

11:55

who have been trafficked in

11:57

this way. Now, I don't

11:59

know how long they keep

12:01

them or if they keep

12:04

them perpetually or if they

12:06

what they do with them

12:08

after time. I'm not sure,

12:10

but there's so many people who

12:13

are who are not where they're

12:15

supposed to be and they

12:17

could be in these compounds.

12:19

And there has been multiple

12:21

evidence of different type of

12:24

victims from students of being

12:26

told do not take this arm.

12:28

scam, essentially there's no paying

12:30

job to give you this

12:32

amount without some type of

12:34

communication or physical communication

12:37

when you meet each other. So what's

12:39

unique about this is the fact that

12:41

not only is it because he's famous

12:44

that brought more light to us

12:46

that he's essentially saving people from

12:48

being a victim. Well, hopefully, because

12:50

at first when he, when they

12:52

did bring him back, they actually,

12:55

China started get it receiving complaints

12:57

from people who said their loved

12:59

ones are missing and they think

13:01

they might have been scanned like

13:03

this and abducted and it started out

13:06

with like 150 people and now what's

13:08

that number over 600 okay over 600

13:10

people but still that's not even close

13:12

that's not even scratched on the surface

13:15

of the thousands or tens of thousands

13:17

or hundreds of thousands that may have

13:19

been taken and the thing is that

13:22

many of these compounds are run by

13:24

basically Chinese mafia. And essentially

13:26

that's where we run into

13:29

sticky waters where many people

13:31

around the news articles around

13:34

the world have proven

13:36

evidence from the United Nations

13:38

that China essentially it

13:40

has a hand and it's in

13:42

this smuggling and reaps the

13:44

squander of the benefits. Yeah,

13:46

so but but here's the

13:48

thing. When they did bring

13:51

him out, when they did

13:53

bring Zing out, they had

13:55

an immediate press conference, right?

13:57

And they made him thank

13:59

Thailand. first and then they

14:01

said and it's really safe

14:03

in Thailand right and it's

14:05

it's it's okay and he

14:08

said yes Thailand is

14:10

very safe for you don't

14:12

worry about it and I

14:14

will come back here when

14:16

whenever I can well they

14:18

did this on on camera

14:20

it's obviously an attempt by Thailand

14:22

to reinvigorate the the tourism program

14:24

it took a hit during COVID

14:27

as I'm sure you know tourism

14:29

everywhere did but they were trying

14:31

to repair that damage but now

14:33

when this guy a famous guy

14:35

gets taken they realize oh no

14:37

this is really gonna hurt us

14:40

so their government kicked into action

14:42

and they were able to locate

14:44

this guy and they were able

14:46

to get him out. Well what

14:48

about the other tens of thousands

14:51

of people right now? that are

14:53

also being held captive. Luckily

14:55

he was able to voice that part

14:57

and despite him being part of

14:59

a multinational political problems, he

15:02

at least spoke for the

15:04

victims and advocated and at

15:06

least spoke to the fact there

15:08

are Chinese and multiple of the

15:10

nationals who are victims of this, but

15:13

the issue that all ties back to

15:15

is who's really personally feeling

15:17

the benefits. Right. And that

15:19

list, actually, I see one

15:21

article here from CNN World

15:23

that says the list of

15:25

missing people that have been

15:27

reported missing from China is

15:29

now more than 1,200 victims.

15:31

Now, this is just outrageous.

15:33

This is out and out

15:35

slavery. This is a serious

15:38

problem that is somehow being

15:40

swept under the rug. I

15:42

don't get it. I mean,

15:44

it's bad enough that these

15:46

guys are doing fraud. But

15:49

they're abducting people, they're kidnapping

15:51

people, they're holding them captive,

15:53

they're beating them and torturing them.

15:55

I mean, good lord, this is

15:57

in 2025. Sadly, it's a loopholes that...

16:00

these victims that are being

16:02

used for between political to

16:04

opportunities lacking in their sovereign

16:06

nation and hoping to seek

16:09

a better life for another,

16:11

just to come find out their

16:13

victim from another one. Well,

16:15

this is, I'm glad that Zing

16:18

got released and he's home and

16:20

luckily he's trying to use his,

16:22

the attention that he's gathering to

16:24

help these other people because this

16:27

is just, this is outrageous. This

16:29

is, he says there are at

16:31

least 50 people were being held

16:33

in the same building as him,

16:36

and there were more in other

16:38

buildings, and he said, and people

16:40

came from many different countries. This

16:42

was, this was very fortunate for

16:45

him, but, you know, they gotta

16:47

do something, they gotta do something

16:49

about the rest of the people

16:52

that are there. I agree. And sadly,

16:54

I think what we all have

16:56

to take you to account that.

16:58

The internet advances the same how

17:00

we advance and we have to essentially

17:02

change the way how we protect

17:05

ourselves. Opportunities that are offered

17:07

online should be taken as

17:10

any opportunity that you would feel

17:12

comfortable as getting to in

17:14

person. Yeah. Well, thank you. I

17:16

really appreciate you giving us some

17:18

insights into what's going on, but

17:21

we need to talk about one

17:23

other. Really crazy

17:26

thing that's

17:29

been going on

17:31

in the news,

17:34

and that is

17:36

This new AI

17:38

model that came

17:41

out of China.

17:44

What's it called?

17:47

Geek seek

17:49

geek. Yeah,

17:51

China's A.I.

17:53

model. But is

17:55

it like chat

17:58

G.P.T? You know,

18:00

exactly in a way, but what's

18:02

minimal, what's unique about China's deep

18:05

sea model compared to other models

18:07

that have been created from China,

18:09

because not the first one has

18:12

come out of China, but what's

18:14

unique about it, it's essentially

18:16

competing with today's top rival,

18:18

which is open AI, also known as

18:21

chat GBT. What's unique about deep

18:23

sea compared to open AI, is the time

18:25

took to build it, the resources

18:27

and the costs. And essentially the

18:30

walls that China has overstepped.

18:32

Okay, but you know, we know,

18:34

I mean, I know because of

18:36

my prior work history that China

18:38

is incredibly well known for stealing

18:41

IP, for stealing plans and

18:43

technology and engineering. Did they

18:45

just reverse engineer open AI

18:48

or is this something totally

18:50

different? And here's a unique

18:52

thing about that because as...

18:55

Multiple people have tried to accuse

18:57

China of doing that is essentially an

18:59

open source model. So you can essentially

19:02

see the code that is being built

19:04

in it. So you can go in

19:06

and perfectly see the code that they

19:08

used to build these models. So it's

19:11

not a privatized compared to, let's

19:13

say, our version in the US. But wait,

19:15

are you saying that they could go in and

19:17

see open AI and then copy

19:20

it? Or are you saying that

19:22

their version, deep seek is open

19:24

so you can see what's in

19:26

it? The latter, essentially what you

19:28

said. Imagine back in the 90s,

19:30

when Linux was invented, it essentially

19:33

took the control from the privatized

19:35

companies, controlling how they essentially used

19:37

their programming models, meaning that they

19:39

shipped you a product, you cannot

19:41

build on the product, nor edit

19:43

the product. China, essentially, did the

19:46

same thing to go against the

19:48

current open AI model, where they

19:50

made it open source, which

19:52

essentially allowed multiple developers. to

19:54

essentially help

19:56

develop the program.

19:59

So... They did this sort of

20:01

publicly did people in China or

20:04

people in China and outside of

20:06

China develop it. Well current reports

20:08

are saying that it it was essentially

20:11

a team of let's say 16

20:13

people if my reports are right

20:15

and it is around 10 million

20:17

dollars compared to our reported over

20:19

10 billion dollars to not only

20:22

it was 5.5 million dollars they

20:24

use which is even more impressive

20:26

I know and which is also

20:28

more shocking is the sanctions that

20:30

have been placed on China in

20:33

towards in regards to chips

20:35

right and because a TSMC for

20:37

example was barred in the So they

20:39

were only allowed to use the video's

20:41

essentially lowest model of GPUs. Right, I

20:44

know that that he's a very controversial

20:46

bigger these days, but didn't Elon Musk

20:48

really invest into open AI because it

20:50

was supposed to be open AI was

20:53

supposed to be given out to everybody?

20:55

That's the current lawsuit that he's going

20:57

through a same alt-in. It's actually reported

20:59

if there's different stories that say he

21:01

was actually one of the founders of

21:04

Open AI and essentially was hoping

21:06

it to be what... Deep Seek essentially is

21:08

now an open source to right so

21:10

the Chinese actually managed to do the

21:13

thing that open AI was supposed to

21:15

do but then instead it took the

21:17

billions and investing billions I mean over

21:19

a hundred yes well and I think

21:22

that's why stifled their innovation right essentially

21:24

we're trying to to promote the idea

21:26

that AI models takes billions of

21:28

billions of billions and essentially

21:31

causing a market issue in careers in

21:33

careers right but but the thing is

21:35

that didn't invidia Because its

21:37

chips were being used exactly there their

21:39

stock prices went through a roof right

21:41

trillion to three to three point five

21:44

trillion or something that was an evaluation

21:46

Correct and but on Monday here it

21:48

took a serious dive I mean I

21:50

is in US history five hundred and

21:52

eighty nine billion dollar loss in their

21:54

stock value now they gained it again

21:57

or they gained back, you know a

21:59

little less than half of that today,

22:01

but still, there was a major

22:03

sell-off as a result of it,

22:05

which can always be a problem.

22:07

What I think what the unique

22:09

underlying story is, is that not

22:11

only that it overcome the US

22:13

sanctions by using the lowest version

22:15

of their chip, it essentially proved

22:17

to consumers and to people who

22:20

are essentially being overcharged for

22:22

AI models or companies are

22:24

taking financial risk, believing in

22:26

these models that... cost us

22:28

much to build and investors

22:31

essentially are getting alerts in

22:33

their head that they're being

22:35

swindled that they does not

22:37

cost that much because not only

22:40

is it the fraction not even

22:42

close to a frack half the time

22:44

it's half the price right so it's

22:46

called r1 or r1 0 and the

22:48

thing about it is though that it's

22:51

from China and just like tick talk

22:53

just also from China It's

22:55

probably going to get some pushback

22:57

from the American government. And that's

23:00

where essentially where the risk is,

23:02

where having an open source, I

23:04

as a developer, would be able

23:07

to customize this from our usage.

23:09

But as any other open source product,

23:11

it could be viewed by anyone.

23:13

Yeah. Well, the important thing is that

23:16

it shows a new way to do something

23:18

that we thought was going to be

23:20

a lot more expensive and a lot

23:22

more technical, but what I wonder... is

23:24

what are the safeguards on

23:26

this new AI model? Because

23:28

again, I'm concerned about AI

23:30

and I'm concerned about it

23:32

becoming independent and becoming

23:35

self-thinking and regulating

23:37

and taking over the universe. I

23:39

don't blame every great invention

23:41

becomes a threat to me

23:43

and kind of eventually. What

23:45

I would say about what's

23:47

unique but deep seek, it rapidly

23:49

growed and rapidly was hacked within.

23:51

A month of its innovation has

23:54

really gone through a major cyber

23:56

attack where they actually stop allowing

23:58

people from signing up. But just

24:00

like anything else like Linux, which

24:03

is now more it's not a

24:05

huge part of governmental use

24:07

in the US It you have to

24:09

take it with both double-edged

24:12

sword, but the hack is

24:14

a Didos attack, right? Denial

24:16

of service attack distributed denial

24:19

of service attack? Essentially, yes,

24:21

but it essentially they're

24:23

controlling a vast amount

24:25

of information and computers

24:28

are accessing it The people

24:30

who are hacking it aren't hacking it

24:32

to find out the code because the

24:34

code is open source. What they're hacking

24:36

it for is to try to prevent

24:38

them from doing services, right? They

24:40

want to interfere with their job, their

24:43

business. It could be that or essentially

24:45

gaining to an underlying framework of how

24:47

it's built. Being open source limits

24:50

you to many things, but

24:52

you could compare to privatize

24:54

companies, you could... essentially customized.

24:56

Well, I just hope they're

24:59

not, you know, this isn't

25:01

another attempt by China to

25:03

basically steal all our information

25:05

to take advantage of our stuff

25:08

because that stuff has

25:10

happened in alarming rates,

25:12

the hacking that into

25:14

our government and other important

25:17

agencies, I think is scary.

25:19

I also agree, but I would

25:21

also say it's, it plays in both

25:23

sides. We. as a government also? Yeah,

25:26

but why on half of the world?

25:28

All right, we may spy on half

25:30

the world, but do we do what

25:33

they do, which is get into

25:35

our governments and try

25:37

to disrupt, for example,

25:39

get into all of our water

25:41

systems, our electrical grid, our critical

25:43

infrastructure? Are we trying to shut

25:45

down? China or are they trying

25:48

to shut down us? I would

25:50

say we just hide our hand

25:52

better. Well, I don't know about

25:54

that. I worked in the government

25:56

for a very long time and

25:58

I've never heard one. that we

26:00

were trying to destroy businesses

26:03

and other things and life-giving

26:05

services to people in foreign

26:08

countries. All right, well anyway,

26:10

I hope that this all

26:13

settles down and that the stock

26:15

market doesn't have long-term ramifications

26:17

because of this. I remember in

26:19

the past when a bubble burst

26:22

in Silicon Valley and what the

26:24

repercussions of that were. I hope

26:27

that's not happening and I

26:29

hope things are going to recover

26:31

quickly. I agree. Even despite it

26:33

being a unique intervention, I did

26:36

not suspect the giant market

26:38

crash and I hope this is

26:40

not happening the same bubble.

26:42

Yeah, well, anyway, we appreciate

26:45

you listening and we will

26:47

be on the Identify

26:49

app shortly, very shortly,

26:51

and Kathy Canning Mellow

26:53

will be back with

26:55

me next week to

26:57

do a very, very

26:59

interesting interview of someone

27:02

we've had on real

27:04

crime profile before who

27:07

is a investigative reporter

27:09

from Los Angeles Times.

27:12

Chris Gofford and he's

27:14

going to be

27:16

telling us about

27:19

his latest project.

27:21

So until next

27:23

time, this is

27:26

Real Crime Profile,

27:28

signing off.