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episode with. Hey Casey. Hey Kate,

1:00

how you doing? how great to It's great to

1:02

have you. good to good to see you.

1:04

I feel like old school, old old school,

1:06

old guard the Wandering the Wondering Network,

1:09

so it's great to be to be reunited.

1:11

we we've been around for quite a

1:13

bit. a bit. You know, know, it's going

1:15

I I can't believe I'm believe I'm saying

1:17

this but it's gonna be a

1:19

decade pretty soon soon. That's a lot.

1:21

Yeah. That's a lot of podcasting.

1:24

I a lot of podcasting. I totally

1:26

remember joining the Wondery Network and

1:28

you guys you guys had started the show

1:30

like a year before me. me. So just to think

1:32

to think about all the that that you've

1:34

covered over that time. If you could tell

1:36

everybody a little bit about your background,

1:38

because what I think is most interesting is

1:40

going from a prosecutor is going

1:42

from a prosecutor All right. Well,

1:44

I'll tell you, but please tell us the

1:46

name of your podcast tell us the name of your life

1:49

with Kate Casey. Life with K

1:51

Casey. That's right. And you can get it

1:53

anywhere. You listen to podcast, it's all

1:55

about unscripted TV. So because

1:57

I cover unscripted TV many

1:59

times unscripted, cases they're covered in

2:01

documentaries in series or even

2:03

or popular news magazine shows

2:06

news magazine shows like 48 hours mystery.

2:08

well, that's how how real crime started.

2:10

We started by covering, well,

2:12

what we found when we

2:14

watched. making murder was that that

2:16

they weren't telling the whole story.

2:18

There was was chunks of the story

2:20

that they were just leaving out.

2:22

So out. wanted to explain to

2:24

the people the who who that series

2:26

what actually happened. what kind

2:28

of person. and offender

2:31

main character

2:33

was. was. And I And

2:35

I think it wasn't until this

2:37

year, earlier this year, or

2:39

the end of last year,

2:41

I can't remember year. I can't came

2:43

out with a follow -up. with

2:45

a follow-up documentary

2:48

to Making Murder about...

2:50

what what we had spoken about in

2:52

our our so many years ago. ago. So anyway,

2:54

we've been covering lots of cases just

2:57

like you have, although have, don't know how

2:59

you do it six days a week.

3:01

That's amazing. a That's just so much

3:03

work, but. so you for doing it. thank

3:05

you for doing it. do you go from a

3:07

prosecutor to working in law enforcement? working

3:10

in law enforcement? Well, it is

3:12

a really Unusual story, but when

3:14

I was a prosecutor, I

3:16

got a call from my brother about

3:18

the camp director when we were kids we were

3:20

he said know, know now that you're a

3:22

prosecutor we should go after the guy

3:24

I said go and he said because I

3:26

had snuck into his office once and found

3:28

into his to paper bags filled

3:30

with Polaroid pictures of him molesting

3:32

boys. And I was like, of him molesting

3:34

boys. And I was thought I was the only

3:37

one. was the only one. And that was

3:39

the beginning of what would

3:41

be a very wild and

3:43

tumultuous road, but the went to

3:45

the FBI Task Force on on

3:47

sexual exploitation of children. And and

3:50

I told I told them my story. helped

3:52

them with with the investigation. I ended

3:54

up wearing a wire, wearing a meeting

3:56

with the guy a bunch of times,

3:58

of times and and actually getting him. and and

4:00

convicted, thrown in jail. the end of the the

4:02

end of the case, over a the of papers

4:04

over a stack of papers to me,

4:06

and I was like, what's this? he

4:08

said, to the an application to the FBI.

4:10

would take me even was like, they would take

4:12

me, even though I was a victim.

4:14

And And I was you kidding me? There's tens or

4:16

hundreds of are you kidding me? people who

4:19

are victims of crime that of millions of

4:21

people who are victims of crime that

4:23

doesn't make you ineligible great an FBI a

4:25

You did a great job. You're a

4:27

lawyer, you're a prosecutor. You have all

4:29

this experience. experience. And that's how I

4:31

became an FBI agent. Now, what

4:33

was great about it, though,

4:35

was I felt it was a

4:37

more active role more active role in

4:40

the the justice system in other words

4:42

In other words, I was

4:44

a prosecutor a prosecutor, of stuck

4:46

with the case and

4:48

the investigation that happens, you

4:50

know, outside your control. you

4:52

know, outside your lot of times,

4:54

And a lot of know you know...

4:57

It's not what you really

4:59

need, and it also it

5:01

also sometimes re victimizes

5:03

victim. victim or the victims. And

5:05

I wanted to to take a

5:07

more active role in that

5:09

interaction and do as much

5:11

as I can because I

5:13

have this incredible I

5:16

curiosity about

5:18

natural and people, and

5:21

and people. I wanted to

5:23

actually use that. use

5:26

that. to, you you

5:28

know, my my career. I And I thought I

5:30

would do it for five years and then

5:32

become an assistant an States attorney, go back

5:34

to prosecuting, attorney, but. back go I

5:36

had so much fun for 22 years, I

5:38

I stayed in. for did what I

5:40

did. just stayed do you think

5:42

the How do you helped? working

5:44

in law enforcement. in law Well,

5:47

it absolutely helped in helped

5:49

in, uh... arrest procedures, proper

5:51

search procedures, probable cause was

5:53

no problem for me.

5:55

I knew me. I knew what was

5:57

was necessary putting together cases. even

6:00

massive cases and I've had

6:02

cases where where there there

6:04

were five assistant United States attorneys

6:06

working the case, and I was

6:08

the case agent. I put all

6:10

of the cases together. put all of the

6:12

cases together and worked

6:14

with five different attorneys. They

6:16

broke it up because it was

6:18

such a huge case and

6:21

multiple a huge case and multiple You

6:23

know, So, just helped me.

6:25

helped me. You You know, sort of

6:27

guide me to working major cases. I

6:29

worked a number of major cases. of major

6:31

the time I was in the I was in

6:34

the Bureau, there were, let me There

6:36

were, let me see. been in the

6:39

I think there have been in

6:41

the history of the 200 major 200

6:43

major cases, something like that. can't

6:45

remember. I don't know the exact

6:47

number, but number, but I had of them

6:49

under my belt, which was cool, belt,

6:51

which was cool. Really a challenge, guess. When

6:53

I say I in the FBI, the

6:55

what I really mean is that I

6:57

was challenged I I do think that

7:00

I had an opportunity to do

7:02

some good things. an opportunity to do some good

7:04

what I was that's

7:06

to. what I was those

7:08

big cases was referring to ones

7:10

have stood out for you and meant the most to

7:12

you? ones have stood I

7:14

you and meant the most to

7:16

you? Well, I I think. think Probably

7:19

one of them was when

7:21

I went undercover for three years

7:23

as for three years as a commodity covered

7:25

that pretty extensively on my podcast,

7:27

but on my one

7:29

was. another one obviously

7:31

case case. That was...

7:33

I I remember that very well.

7:35

was living there at the time at the time

7:37

in fear. Yeah, well, everyone was. the entire

7:39

community was and was. And brother

7:42

and I got involved in the

7:44

case because the case we showed up

7:46

at the crime scene at exactly the

7:48

same moment. Like he literally was pulling

7:50

into a parking space and I was

7:52

pulling into a parking space right next

7:54

to him. space right next to him just because

7:56

the crime scene was scene was

7:58

about equidistant between our homes and

8:00

and and another crime scene

8:02

his crime scene, his

8:05

wife was at the

8:07

gas just minutes before really I

8:09

was shot in in Massponics yes

8:11

and you know it You know, it

8:13

just, it really hit close

8:16

to home. home I was standing watch a lot

8:18

of times and lot of times and

8:20

he was out patrolling the

8:22

streets he was the SWAT the at

8:24

leader at the Washington

8:26

field office in. and He He was

8:28

out patrolling the streets just looking

8:30

for the next. for the shooting and

8:33

he and he it was

8:35

going to be in to be

8:37

street that had a very easy

8:39

access to the highway the highway

8:41

that's where. where they determined that they

8:43

were escaping. And sure

8:46

enough, he was enough, he

8:48

was the first cop he

8:50

at the Home shooting at an

8:52

Depot. employee an FBI employee was killed and

8:54

he was the first law enforcement at

8:56

the scene there. there. He was

8:58

seconds away. It's just, anyway, but anyway,

9:00

a that's a whole nother story. So

9:02

we're going to talk We're gonna talk about something

9:04

different today, aren't we? aren't we? Well,

9:06

just last part of

9:09

case case is when you look back in

9:11

retrospect, is there anything that

9:13

has changed your opinion or do you

9:15

look back at any part of

9:17

that case? of that case a different lens.

9:19

lens? Well, I

9:22

I don't know know familiar you

9:24

are with our process during

9:26

that, but that but we FBI

9:28

was almost completely focused focused

9:31

on counterterrorism at that time

9:33

at that time, you know after 9-11 we

9:35

were not getting involved

9:38

in in in criminal cases much. We

9:40

We were actually letting

9:42

the locals deal with those

9:44

things and we were

9:46

dealing with terrorism. with terrorism and That

9:48

That didn't sit well with a lot

9:50

of people. people. I I worked crimes

9:52

against children. There were child abductions were child

9:54

abductions that we feel like feel like we were being

9:56

able to put all the resources where

9:58

they should be, be and there were also

10:01

these you know, these major

10:03

criminal cases. We wanted to flood

10:05

the entire area with the ,000 FBI

10:07

agents with just shut down everything after

10:09

the next event and just capture

10:11

the guys, but none of that

10:13

was happening. the so Tim and

10:15

I, my brother Tim and I

10:18

got involved. the guys. But know, Tim

10:20

is also an FBI agent, and

10:22

we got involved I,

10:24

the case sort of I

10:26

got maybe. maybe,

10:28

maybe, in an an

10:31

unauthorized manner. we got

10:33

got involved tried to

10:35

help because it was our to

10:37

help because it was our

10:39

own communities that were being. and

10:41

everybody was ripped apart and everybody was afraid.

10:43

Everybody was afraid to get gas. Everybody

10:45

was afraid to go to the store. People

10:47

were crawling out of their cars. mean,

10:49

it was just crazy. out of their cars. I mean, it

10:52

was just crazy. But when we

10:54

when we finally took the case

10:56

on in the behavioral analysis

10:58

unit and were profiling the case.

11:00

the case. We determined the

11:02

guy who was the

11:05

guy who the this,

11:07

the probably at least in in

11:09

at least in his

11:11

mid had been been or military trained

11:14

or military police or had

11:16

police or military experience because

11:18

this is a guy that a

11:20

guy that planned and executed.

11:22

six shootings, one shot,

11:24

one shot, one one kill.

11:26

kill. without decompensating, usually in

11:29

spree cases like that, where you

11:31

have so many crimes. have so many

11:33

crimes each other. you see some

11:35

see some. because if this

11:37

this guy's never done it before,

11:39

this is overwhelming. This is like adrenaline

11:41

rushing through their veins. through their veins, so

11:43

they start to break down a little

11:45

bit, their plans and so forth.

11:48

And that's usually evident. so forth, but this

11:50

guy's a ghost. He's perfect at

11:52

this. a ghost, he's perfect at

11:54

this, and we... So that's why we

11:56

came up with that aspect

11:58

of the profile. the profile. Jim Fitz, next

12:00

to me, next to were in

12:03

the FBI the together, way

12:05

back. way in 1987

12:07

sat next to each other, and

12:09

We sat next to each other to sitting next to

12:11

me in the behavioral analysis unit. unit,

12:14

and he He says, gotta tell you, man, if

12:16

if you look at these writings, because

12:18

we had the tarot card and the note

12:20

that my brother Tim found. the note that my

12:22

brother He goes, look at this. goes,

12:24

This note is on is on pink lined.

12:26

like tablet paper and and it has these

12:28

little stars like you get from your

12:30

teacher if you do a good job

12:32

on your homework. your And it's in a

12:35

in a it's in a Halloween What kind of self

12:37

-respecting 45 45 year communicate to law enforcement

12:39

this way? This is bullshit. This

12:41

guy, is if he's an adult, he's

12:43

barely an adult, but I don't

12:45

even think he's an adult. I think

12:47

he's an adult I 16 he's old. 16 years old

12:49

saying He's saying, this is for you, you,

12:51

Police. Like he's looking up to

12:53

the cops. But also, Mr. Police is

12:55

aligned from Police is a line from the

12:57

reggae songs And the tarot card

13:00

and the reggae songs. He said, I

13:02

think we're He said, I think

13:04

we're talking about. with Caribbean influence.

13:07

influence. like, that's

13:09

crazy, this guy has like, be

13:11

crazy. This guy has to be know,

13:13

at least. You know, that whole

13:15

thing. whole thing. And... No No 15 year

13:17

old could ever do this. do this. And

13:20

then I said, said, then then.

13:22

this guy is this guy

13:24

is completely composed, focused,

13:26

and amazing at planning

13:28

and executing these shootings, but

13:30

he decompensates. when

13:32

when he's writing to us. to us. Or for

13:35

the first time in in US we have

13:37

a sniper team. a like, ah, that's

13:39

bullshit. No way, that can't happen.

13:41

It's not possible. that Snipers don't play

13:43

well. They have a possible, Look at

13:45

his tarot card. says, call me a

13:47

God know, look at absolutely. card, it says, And

13:50

so I said, you know? Right, yeah, it

13:52

would work so I one of them would

13:54

The older one is

13:56

controlling is younger one. the younger

13:58

would he would feel... Okay,

14:00

working as a team. In fact,

14:03

he could be controlling him completely

14:05

by sexually abusing him. Everybody looked

14:07

at me and said, no fucking

14:09

way. You're just saying that because

14:12

that's your expertise area and all

14:14

that stuff. And I said, maybe

14:16

so, but that's what I'm seeing.

14:19

And eventually I convinced them put

14:21

it in the profile. Anyway, so

14:23

we were looking for two African-American

14:25

males who who... We're traveling together

14:28

and by the way, when I

14:30

talked to, when I showed up

14:32

at that crime scene in Spassabania

14:35

Mall and talked to the sheriff,

14:37

I said, are there any witnesses?

14:39

And you said, no, there's no

14:42

witnesses. I sent everybody home. And

14:44

I said, dude, there's 3,000 cars

14:46

in this parking lot. People

14:49

are coming going all the time.

14:51

Somebody must have seen something and

14:53

he said well one kid But

14:56

he's a liar and I said

14:58

what do you mean? He's a

15:00

drug user and all this stuff

15:03

and he goes he says there's

15:05

a black kid with a black

15:07

guy with a black with a

15:10

black with a big Afro Was

15:12

driving this dark sedan and that's

15:14

where the shots came from and

15:17

I said great. Did you put

15:19

out the APB? He said yeah,

15:21

I put it out for the

15:24

white man So so so anyway

15:26

we said we're looking for looking

15:28

for Black adult male in his

15:31

mid 40s and a teenage boy

15:33

is in his mid teens driving

15:35

a dark sedan and Within 24

15:38

hours they were spotted at a

15:40

rest stop sleeping in a car

15:42

by a truck driver so Actually,

15:45

and then I think it was

15:47

10 or 11 years later Malvo

15:49

came out and said that Muhammad

15:52

had been molesting him picked him

15:54

up out of him shelter and

15:56

had been molesting him the whole

15:59

time. So it just reinforced everything

16:01

that I learned during my training

16:03

in the VAU, you know, from

16:06

the from the guys who who

16:08

started the whole thing. And it

16:10

doesn't change the way I look

16:13

at things, but it actually gives

16:15

me more confidence in behavioral analysis,

16:18

criminal behavioral analysis as a whole.

16:20

Well, that leads us to a

16:22

case that is really the most

16:25

talked about case this month, the

16:27

murder of United Health Care CEO

16:29

Brian Thompson. Can I just ask

16:32

you before we go any further?

16:34

Can we not say the subject's

16:36

name? Because the first part of

16:39

my profile of this guy is

16:41

that he's sinking infamy. And why

16:43

would we want to give it

16:46

to him? This is the same

16:48

exact kind of personality that engages

16:50

in school shootings, mass shootings, driving

16:53

cars through crowds, you know, that

16:55

we're seeing a lot of. This

16:57

is one way we can. Take

17:00

away from them what they're seeking

17:02

and hopefully reduce the number of

17:04

copycats that happen. Okay, right All

17:07

right, let's get into the details

17:09

of it By the way I

17:11

listened to your episode with agent

17:14

Robert Damico. Yes I was great

17:16

and you know he and I

17:18

were in the same division sir

17:21

oh no way it's in a

17:23

response group but I don't know

17:25

if I knew him I may

17:28

have known him by sight I

17:30

think he was a little bit

17:32

behind me I'm not sure what

17:35

year he actually entered sir but

17:37

he was also in the HRT

17:39

which I completely respect I mean

17:42

that's that's that's the pinnacle of

17:44

law enforcement let me tell you

17:46

those guys are amazing but You

17:49

know, so they're actually housed at

17:51

a different location, but I knew

17:54

a bunch of the HRT guys

17:56

and the unit chief. So it's

17:58

possible we. cross paths,

18:01

probably yeah I'd Yeah, I'd like to talk

18:03

to you a little bit about some of the stuff

18:05

some of the talking about with him were a bit. Oh, good.

18:07

with him too in as you know,

18:09

Oh I had a chance to

18:11

speak with a retired agent, with Robert

18:13

D 'Amico, about the murder of

18:15

United the murder of United Healthcare CEO What did

18:18

you think of this case from

18:20

the very beginning, and were there

18:22

any additional thoughts you had about

18:24

that interview with Robert D 'Amico? about that

18:26

interview with Robert Dymico? sure. sure.

18:29

When I heard about the

18:31

case, remember I saw the video and

18:33

I think a lot of think a

18:35

lot of people were saying

18:37

this was a hit, a this

18:39

was a professional hit man

18:42

and so forth. I was

18:44

like. like, it's kind of

18:46

crazy, crazy, but he couldn't have

18:48

have framed that shot any better

18:50

if he was a Hollywood producer.

18:53

I said, this guy. this guy shot

18:56

him. him. in front of a camera. a

18:58

This guy is looking. guy is looking

19:01

for fame and This is not a

19:03

hit person a hit would have

19:05

gone right up to him within

19:07

to him within an inch or

19:09

two and pulled the

19:11

trigger and I think think, like

19:13

Robert D 'Amico said, would have given

19:15

would have given him

19:17

a you know, the you know, the

19:19

final shot or shots that ensured

19:21

that this guy was never going to

19:24

survive, right? That didn't

19:26

happen. happen. And there are a

19:28

number of a number of

19:30

indicators and I think they were

19:32

reinforced over time as they got more

19:34

and more information about this guy, and

19:36

but he about definitely

19:38

but he my mind in

19:41

my mind a fame seeker as

19:43

opposed to somebody who

19:46

was professionally trying to to

19:48

hit somebody so that that

19:50

He could go on being hit

19:52

a hitman that. that. This was somebody

19:55

who did not have the criminal

19:57

sophistication that he thought he

19:59

had. is This is a. fairly common thing

20:01

when you have a smart

20:03

person. We saw the same

20:05

kind of thing go on

20:07

in Idaho where somebody murdered

20:09

four students and thought he

20:11

was better than the cops,

20:13

thought he was better than

20:15

anybody. This is exactly the

20:17

same situation. Their personalities are

20:19

very similar. in a lot

20:21

of ways but you know

20:23

they express themselves slightly differently

20:25

though but we'll get into

20:27

all that but one of

20:29

the things I wanted to

20:31

talk about though listening to

20:33

it one of the issues

20:35

and my brother Tim is

20:37

the tactical guy right so

20:39

I had a conversation with

20:41

him about this he was

20:43

the SWAT training coordinator at

20:45

Washington Field Office and I'm

20:47

sure he probably knows SSA

20:49

Damico, he probably knows him

20:51

personally, but we were discussing

20:53

this and there's an anomaly

20:55

here. So you could see

20:57

in the video that he

20:59

has to manually rack the

21:01

gun after he shoots the

21:03

victim. And apparently he had

21:06

to do that three times

21:08

because not only are there

21:10

three shell casings, which means

21:12

that the shell casings ejected.

21:14

from the gun after it

21:16

was fired, but there were

21:18

also three full, unfired rounds

21:20

on the ground. That happened

21:22

when he bracked the action

21:24

back. So it's, in discussing

21:26

this with my brother, he

21:28

said he could have been

21:30

using subsonic rounds. Like he's

21:32

using a suppressor to try

21:34

to be quiet, right? So

21:36

he doesn't get caught immediately,

21:38

but... He may have been

21:40

using subsonic rounds, which are

21:42

slower and are less loud.

21:44

They may have caused the

21:46

when the rounds cycled. So

21:48

as the slide comes back,

21:50

the ejection arm... Pops out

21:52

the used shell casing right

21:54

a fired round and then

21:56

it goes back a little

21:58

further and then it Come

22:00

as it comes forward with

22:02

a spring It picks up

22:04

the next round out of

22:06

the magazine and chambers it

22:08

into the chamber right pulls

22:10

it into the chamber My

22:12

brother thought that Perhaps it

22:14

didn't fully seat in the

22:16

chamber and that's why when

22:18

he pulled the trigger the

22:20

second time It didn't fire

22:22

that round. So he had

22:24

to then rack it back

22:26

and it ejected the full

22:28

round that hadn't been fired

22:30

and then rack it forward

22:32

manually and now it seats

22:34

properly and he's able to

22:36

shoot. And then he had

22:38

to do it again. And

22:40

again, that's why you have

22:42

six three casings and three

22:44

unfired rounds on the ground.

22:46

And this is something that

22:48

my brother... attributed to either

22:50

the fact that it was

22:52

a 3D printed gun. Now

22:54

that could mean that some

22:57

of the edges weren't filed

22:59

properly, that it was slightly

23:01

off, or that he didn't

23:03

have all the springs that

23:05

are necessary, and that's why

23:07

he had to do it,

23:09

or the spring wasn't tight

23:11

enough, so it didn't rack

23:13

it back hard enough to

23:15

actually properly seat the round,

23:17

so the into the chamber

23:19

so that the firing pin

23:21

could hit it. So there's

23:23

a number of things that

23:25

could have happened. or it

23:27

could have been literally a

23:29

design flaw. And I know

23:31

that that agent Mico said

23:33

that it could have been

23:35

that he had the the

23:37

slide was actually purchased and

23:39

excuse me the the slide

23:41

or the trigger and all

23:43

that those components could have

23:45

been purchased and just the

23:47

frame was what was 3D

23:49

printed. I don't know but

23:51

it's possible that you know

23:53

some of the some of

23:55

the items that you might

23:57

get online wouldn't maybe not

23:59

be up to specs and

24:01

so So whatever the factors

24:03

are, it appears that he

24:05

had to, every time he

24:07

fired that gun, he had

24:09

to receipt the next round.

24:11

And it may have worked

24:13

instead of him racking back

24:15

the action, if he had

24:17

just pushed it forward, like

24:19

hit it forward, that may

24:21

have caused it to then

24:23

be able to be fireable.

24:25

But instead he racked it

24:27

back and racked it back

24:29

and racked it back. And

24:31

that's one of the things.

24:33

The fact that he had

24:35

to keep doing that, is

24:37

one of the reasons why.

24:39

This is it reinforces the

24:41

fact that he's not an

24:43

actual hitman, right? He's a

24:46

smart person, but that doesn't

24:48

make him criminally sophisticated Right

24:50

now he did some things

24:52

forensically sophisticated, you know walking

24:54

around with the hood and

24:56

keeping his face covered with

24:58

a mask, you know, COVID

25:00

type mask or whatever That

25:02

way he minimized the number

25:04

of cam cameras that would

25:06

see him doing as Agent

25:08

Mico said, using three different

25:10

modes of egress, you know,

25:12

smart, all that stuff, but

25:14

smiling for the young lady

25:16

at the clerk at the

25:18

desk, at the hostily who's

25:20

staying at, pulling down his

25:22

mask when she asked him

25:24

to, those kinds of things

25:26

are absolutely boneheaded. mistakes that

25:28

led to his capture. Also,

25:30

I think it was a

25:32

bottle of water and I

25:34

don't know, was it something

25:36

else I think with his

25:38

DNA at the scene that

25:40

they were able to match,

25:42

those things are just, you

25:44

know, totally bonehead moves. This

25:46

guy is not a sophisticated

25:48

killer. He has some degree

25:50

of forensic sophistication, some degree

25:52

of... criminal sophistication, but it's

25:54

not experiential and because of

25:56

that just like the jerk

25:58

in Idaho He made

26:00

made mistakes. based on

26:02

the fact that You know,

26:04

based on the fact that

26:07

his adrenaline was pumping plans did

26:09

not go exactly not go exactly

26:11

as he had anticipated

26:13

or fantasized, and and that And

26:15

you again gives you insight into

26:18

his personality. his Here's a

26:20

guy who felt the

26:22

need to write everything down,

26:24

to write out his

26:26

plans down, to write out his plans,

26:29

and to... Try to follow that

26:31

to the letter. Now, why would he

26:33

do that? If he was a

26:35

professional, he would never, He ever

26:37

write anything down. Now down just, would that's

26:39

just it's just, it's just it's just what

26:41

you? Have to do to do when

26:43

you don't know what you're doing, right?

26:45

So he's leaking out information about his abilities

26:48

when when that happens. when When they arrested

26:50

him, I I know you talked to to me

26:52

about the fact that he still

26:54

had the gun and Agent Tomeko said

26:56

I would expect that he would expect

26:58

you know, as soon as he

27:00

got to another town, he would have

27:02

found the first he of water and

27:04

tossed it. town, he would have found the

27:06

first body if you go

27:08

back into his history a little

27:11

bit me, if you go back that he's

27:13

made, a sort of idolizing postings that

27:15

he's made, sort of idolizing

27:17

believe. he, I is also

27:19

leaking out the information that this is

27:22

what he wants. The reason why he

27:24

kept the gun was because he

27:26

wanted to keep doing this. this. reason

27:28

why he wrote on the casings was because he wanted because

27:30

he wanted to instill fear. he's this

27:32

is why I believe he's being

27:34

charged with terrorism, to right? He wanted

27:36

to instill fear He the community. CEOs to

27:38

He wanted all the other CEOs to

27:41

be looking over their shoulders and

27:43

everybody who worked for any of these

27:45

insurance companies. And you're talking about

27:47

many tens of thousands of people. across

27:49

this country, across that? country,

27:51

right, who do that. So he, this

27:53

is what his goal was. He

27:55

He wanted that kind of

27:57

infamy and he wanted to to

27:59

continue. over a period of time.

28:02

This was his goal. This

28:04

is why I say don't

28:06

even speak his name. We'll

28:08

talk, get to this whole,

28:10

this whole, you know, horrific

28:12

kind of behavior in the

28:14

public and in comments and

28:16

even women who are fawning

28:18

over this guy. This, that

28:20

kind of reaction is exactly.

28:23

what he's looking for. This

28:25

is exactly what will encourage

28:27

him and other people like

28:29

him with diminished self-image and

28:31

serious personality traits that are

28:33

off the charts in the

28:35

worst way. This is what

28:37

they're looking for. So we

28:39

need to rob them of

28:41

this as much as humanly

28:44

possible. So, you know, I

28:46

guess those are the headlines.

28:48

Do you have any specific

28:50

questions? Well, he comes from

28:52

such a privileged background. His

28:54

parents are, he was born

28:56

into wealth. He went to

28:58

the Gilman School, has an

29:00

undergrad and graduate degree from

29:02

the University of Pennsylvania. Does

29:04

it fit into any typical

29:07

criminal profile to go after

29:09

an executive when he was

29:11

born into opportunity? It wasn't,

29:13

it's my understanding, there's a

29:15

lot of misinformation out there,

29:17

but it's my understanding that

29:19

that insurance companies are are

29:21

basically where his family got

29:23

their wealth. So, you know,

29:25

it's sort of, it's sort

29:27

of a backhanded, you know,

29:30

quasi idealistic motive that he's

29:32

expressing. I don't believe it's

29:34

expressing. I don't believe it.

29:36

I don't believe it. I

29:38

don't believe it. for a

29:40

minute. I do believe that

29:42

he's using it as an

29:44

excuse. There is obviously some

29:46

potential for some... I'd say...

29:48

disorder. Now I'm not talking

29:51

about criminal insanity. Criminal insanity

29:53

is when you don't know

29:55

the rightfulness or wrongfulness of

29:57

your actions. And people will

29:59

argue, well he did this

30:01

basically in front of a

30:03

camera, you know, obviously he

30:05

didn't know it was wrong,

30:07

right? His lawyers might argue

30:09

that. But I would say,

30:11

I would say the opposite.

30:14

Look at the extent to

30:16

which he hid his identity.

30:18

to get to that point

30:20

and after that point and

30:22

every single move he made

30:24

after he left after he

30:26

left the crime scene after

30:28

he had murdered this guy

30:30

in cold blood every single

30:32

move he made was in

30:35

order to conceal his identity

30:37

because he knew what he

30:39

was doing was wrong so

30:41

you know people were calling

30:43

him some kind of Robinhood

30:45

which is a complete bullshit

30:47

complete bullshit and everybody that's

30:49

saying well we hate We

30:51

hate insurance companies, we hate

30:53

this, we hate that. Yeah,

30:55

you know, go ahead, but

30:58

you don't respond by killing.

31:00

I mean, it's just the

31:02

most outrageous, extreme, worst possible

31:04

reaction because I'm sure there's

31:06

a new CEO in that

31:08

same place and there will

31:10

be one after that one

31:12

and another one after that

31:14

one. What you have to

31:16

do is talk to your

31:18

legislators and get them to,

31:21

you know, make sure that

31:23

there are laws that restrict

31:25

people if they're doing something

31:27

wrong, restrict them from doing

31:29

it. That's what you need

31:31

to do. This doesn't change

31:33

anything. And if anything, it

31:35

makes it worse for people

31:37

in that situation because there's

31:39

absolutely no positive repercussions when

31:42

you murder somebody. First of

31:44

all, his family. Secondly, other

31:46

people in that position. you

31:48

know they're gonna be afraid

31:50

to go to work now

31:52

these people that actually the

31:54

service. There's so many of

31:56

them that will be afraid

31:58

that somebody's going to come

32:00

and blow up their building

32:02

or, you know, come in

32:05

and shoot people or drive

32:07

a car through the front

32:09

door, whatever it is. This

32:11

is the kind of thing,

32:13

the fear that he has

32:15

instilled in people, and this

32:17

is why another reason why

32:19

it's wrong. So, if you

32:21

look at his behavior, it

32:23

tells you so much. Why

32:25

would he do what he

32:28

did if he didn't know

32:30

it was right or wrong?

32:32

Didn't know it was wrong

32:34

and But he is in

32:36

his mid-20s, which is when

32:38

you know typically Things like

32:40

schizophrenia start to show themselves.

32:42

So this is something that

32:44

is a possibility. I mean

32:46

he did go basically offline

32:49

right his parents reported a

32:51

missing for a few months,

32:53

right? And so something, something

32:55

psychologically may have happened at

32:57

that time and, but that

32:59

doesn't excuse, in the least,

33:01

it doesn't excuse the behavior,

33:03

the decisions he made, and

33:05

the planning, it's a very

33:07

clear indication that he knew

33:09

exactly what he was doing

33:12

at the time. So even

33:14

if we know. that he

33:16

knew exactly what he was

33:18

doing, can we still try

33:20

to understand what led up

33:22

to that? There's been suggestions

33:24

that maybe he had a

33:26

back injury, I know that

33:28

he spent some time in

33:30

Hawaii doing alternative therapies. Would

33:33

there be something that could

33:35

signal to others so that

33:37

we can better understand this

33:39

particular case so that we

33:41

prevent further ones on what

33:43

may have transpired for him

33:45

to get to a place

33:47

where he would have come

33:49

up with this plan? Well,

33:53

yeah, I mean there's

33:55

in a similar way

33:58

to to school shooter

34:00

mass murders, mass murders.

34:02

There's a book, I are,

34:04

there's called book, I believe

34:06

it's called something or something

34:08

like that. There's two researchers

34:10

that we had we had on Real

34:12

I can't remember their names

34:15

right now. Unfortunately, I can't remember

34:17

their names right now, lead

34:19

up to a bunch of

34:21

these shootings a bunch of these

34:23

They are trying to

34:26

design design so that

34:28

you can you can. sort

34:30

of prevent these things from

34:32

happening. from think the most common the

34:34

most way to prevent that to

34:36

to have somebody in their life

34:39

in their with them on whatever

34:41

subject it is that is bothering

34:43

them, whether it's being bullied

34:45

or whether it's some kind of

34:47

medical issue kind of may be

34:50

the case in this be the case in

34:52

this case. it is human

34:54

interaction. When somebody

34:56

tries to isolate themselves.

34:58

when posting about

35:00

emulating. a serial

35:02

killer and a serial bomber. a serial

35:05

bomber, this is a

35:07

call for call for

35:09

intervention oh, here's the thing.

35:11

Now here's the thing. shocked What I

35:13

was shocked at when we finally got

35:15

his identity. was, I know

35:18

that there are but there

35:20

are of people of people

35:22

who recognized him There's

35:24

no question. You can't be

35:26

the valedictorian of your

35:28

school of your be involved in

35:30

so many activities activities not

35:32

have people recognize a

35:35

photograph of you. of you. A

35:37

A totally unknown person at

35:39

McDonald's recognized him when

35:41

he saw him. him. that

35:43

tells me that family family

35:45

and his friends and his

35:47

classmates and his associates Most

35:50

likely recognized him him. Now they may have

35:53

wanted to say it it couldn't be him,

35:55

it couldn't be him, it couldn't be

35:57

him, be him but None of of them, a not

35:59

a single one of them the effort to call

36:01

law enforcement, like in

36:03

the case of the case of Ted Kaczynski,

36:05

like his like

36:08

his brother. sister-in-law -in

36:10

-law instigated it, but his

36:12

it but his brother came forward and said i

36:14

want you to rule I want you guy

36:16

out guy out because, yeah, he yeah,

36:18

he looks like his writing looks like

36:20

the writing of Unabomber, I want you

36:22

to rule them out. Nobody did

36:25

that in this case. Nobody came forward

36:27

and said, and here's a picture of

36:29

my picture of Here's a picture of

36:31

the valedictorian at our school. Here's a

36:33

picture of my nephew, my cousin,

36:35

my son. Nobody did that of said,

36:38

you know. my son. them out did that

36:40

know he couldn't do this

36:42

out because we know he couldn't do

36:44

this. So kind of indifference in

36:46

the face of a murder,

36:49

I don't like that, I don't like don't like

36:51

that. I don't like that at all. of

36:53

the fact that he do you make

36:55

of the fact that he he guilty?

36:57

guilty. He has has to, I mean

36:59

that's That's the way it is. is They

37:01

always do. He probably had nothing to

37:04

do with that decision. do with lawyer just said.

37:06

his lawyer You're going to plead not guilty so we

37:08

can prepare for trial. guilty so we can

37:10

to try to get them for trial sure. gonna

37:12

try to get him off. I'm the family

37:14

has enough money to hire

37:16

very has enough money to hire or

37:19

law lawyers or law firm and They're

37:21

gonna be gonna be billing a lot

37:23

of money for this. for this defense What

37:26

is the one thing that

37:28

we could look for case

37:30

case? and the trial

37:32

continues to unfold, is there one major

37:34

element that we need to pay

37:36

attention to? need to pay attention to?

37:38

As Agent said, said, the the case

37:40

here is overwhelming. The

37:43

DNA, the gun the

37:45

notes the planning everything

37:47

everything. videos and this

37:49

guy this guy is rock solid in

37:52

terms of proof

37:54

against him him. But I think

37:56

the i think the thing you're

37:58

going to, which is going to be be...

38:00

mostly celebrated by the

38:02

assholes who are supporting him is

38:04

going to be the of type

38:06

of they decide to put that

38:08

think to put forward to be

38:11

i think are going to be be by

38:13

it and are gonna be are going

38:15

to be applauding it. see see. But I

38:17

don't think this is don't think this is

38:19

going to be, not going to be a not going to

38:21

be a difficult case. Well, I'm really

38:24

Well, I'm really grateful for your time, I always like

38:26

like to you. to you. What other thing. One other

38:28

thing. I I think the reason

38:30

why, again, is one of those

38:32

leakage incidents. The reason why

38:34

it's not going to be

38:36

a problem is because he wanted

38:38

this attention. he wanted was his personality,

38:40

his this need, this desire, behavior

38:43

that he had that he had, so

38:45

that he could get this kind of

38:47

attention. And you can see him. you

38:49

can see it up, know, any

38:51

opportunity any see when he sees the

38:53

he sees the acts up. acts is

38:55

his, is his... his opportunity

38:57

of fame. minutes other

38:59

words, the So walk

39:02

words, going to a

39:04

to a courtroom, of the attention

39:06

that he's receiving is

39:08

only making is only making his

39:10

ego worse. worse. Yes, and

39:12

it reminds me of

39:15

the in LA. He was he

39:17

was was he was similar in that

39:19

way. He was a a horrific,

39:21

horrific killer the the

39:23

most vile file. disgusting

39:26

killer and women were throwing themselves

39:28

at He was wearing sunglasses

39:30

to court He was to was

39:32

just soaking up every second

39:34

of media attention He could

39:36

and people were falling for

39:38

it. for it. That's just totally

39:40

my book. It's completely ignorant.

39:43

I'm so grateful for your time. so

39:45

grateful for your time. your love to hear.

39:47

are you talking to you? What are you

39:49

are you working on on the podcast so that

39:52

that people can catch up on episodes? episodes?

39:54

Well, we've we've been

39:56

talking about current events

39:58

real current Profile. best case.

40:00

worst case. Obviously, one one

40:03

of one of my

40:05

proudest moments in in

40:07

2024, two of my

40:09

proudest moments in

40:11

2024, is in 2024, and

40:13

I, we and I, we

40:15

released on audible FBI profilers.

40:18

criminal archives, and it's 15 of the

40:20

cases that we worked together when

40:22

we were in the in analysis

40:24

unit, analysis unit Canning canning I, I Kathy and

40:26

mellow just an amazing woman, and amazing

40:28

so accomplished, and she did an

40:30

amazing job in the FBI, amazing

40:32

went around the world with the

40:34

FBI, the and so we were able

40:36

to talk about cases that to

40:39

talk really the most heart

40:41

the most challenging and some

40:43

of the greatest ones that

40:45

we worked. ones that we But

40:47

but also I released released that I wrote

40:50

I wrote with Peter

40:52

McDonald and it's my

40:54

first scripted audio series

40:56

series great. Oh great. call

40:59

it call it book, but

41:01

either way, it made

41:03

but top 20 of made

41:05

the top 20 of 2024 and it made

41:07

five the the best sellers

41:09

list for the

41:11

country, the country for... non -for

41:13

-fiction writing, although it is

41:16

extremely closely based on

41:18

reality on reality actually, it's about

41:20

the first serial killer

41:22

in about the And I

41:24

actually have his 152

41:26

page typed. his 152-page typed

41:28

confession. Wow. it

41:31

is unbelievably insightful. And

41:33

what was great is I

41:35

was able to infuse in this

41:37

series in this series a a a lot

41:39

of behavioral analysis so that

41:41

I could explain what was actually

41:43

going on. was actually see

41:46

how he is in this

41:48

interrogation with the district attorney,

41:50

Mr. with the and then you

41:52

see how he is. with

41:55

his new bride, you

41:57

see how he is with his new

41:59

bride, You know, he's

42:01

just he's amazing amazing and

42:03

we were were lucky enough to

42:05

cast Joseph Fiennes as the lead.

42:08

as the lead as

42:10

Bluebeard Watson and

42:12

and Karen David

42:15

as the inimitable

42:17

Kate Wombaker, cat Kat Wambacher,

42:19

who was ahead of

42:21

her time in terms

42:23

of being a shero.

42:25

of being a Shiro and and

42:27

Adrienne Pashtar and we have

42:30

a- It was great, great

42:32

cast. Holt, McElhaney, great,

42:34

great cast great cast

42:36

supporting cast too. But

42:39

this guy But this guy married

42:41

30 and killed sixteen of them.

42:43

of them. he was arrested arrested

42:45

a years ago in 1920.

42:47

in 1920. And basically,

42:50

it weren't for cat, he

42:52

weren't for Kat, he he would

42:54

have killed them all. killed them all. So.

42:56

She's amazing. So anyway, that's

42:59

that's what I've been doing. I'm writing

43:01

a new one now with another

43:03

friend of mine, now Mills, and hopefully of

43:05

mine, Stephen that. and out in the

43:08

get year. in the coming year. And that

43:10

me, it was so much

43:12

fun writing. unbounded because it's unbounded

43:14

because it's audio. You don't

43:16

have to worry about production

43:19

budgets. budgets. But you you

43:21

know, you really can

43:23

engage people's imagination. And

43:25

so that was great. What about

43:27

about you? can Where can people listen

43:29

to your show can they follow you on

43:32

social media? show and where can they

43:34

two on my two

43:36

weekly Well, my two Crime Profile

43:38

two Case, Worst Case,

43:41

or you can listen

43:43

to wherever you listen

43:45

to your listen to They're you

43:47

listen to your podcast. social media,

43:50

everywhere and on Jim media. I'm the

43:52

real Jim Clemente and I'm on. on

43:54

Instagram and audible. I I

43:56

have 20 XG

43:59

Productions. production company

44:01

with my company with have We

44:03

titles on on so

44:05

you can just search just

44:08

my name name or XG

44:10

on Audible and they

44:12

should should pop up. all There's

44:14

lots of them there. So we've

44:16

been busy there. So we've been busy.

44:18

Yeah. how about you? Where

44:20

can people? people Find out. out

44:23

what you're doing doing and look Look

44:25

at your work. work? So my So my

44:27

podcast, Life with Casey, can be found be found anywhere

44:29

where you listen to podcasts and I I have

44:31

six episodes a week. On On Mondays, I

44:33

will tell you what to watch in in

44:35

television. So that's documentaries, series, series,

44:37

reality. anything in unscripted television.

44:40

And then Tuesday through Friday, I

44:42

have interviews with the people that

44:44

are featured in those that are featured in

44:46

the producers or the directors. of And

44:48

then on Saturday, And I have

44:50

a Saturday series where I interview

44:52

people who have really inspiring and

44:54

interesting have stories. and can.

44:57

can find me on

44:59

social media, stories. And you can

45:01

find me on social media, Instagram, at KCC,

45:03

KCC, a Tik talk. It's KKCC, Twitter

45:05

Threads and Blue Sky, at KK. Thank

45:07

you so much, Kate. Kate. you

45:09

for you me to do

45:11

this crossover episode. I'm really

45:13

happy that we got to

45:15

sort of we got to sort of unite

45:17

days back in back in wonder. And I and

45:20

I really, really respect all the

45:22

work you do. I mean, it's crazy

45:24

how much work it is to do.

45:26

six Six episodes a week.

45:28

Wow. that. And I'll appreciate that, I'm

45:31

have to to I'm gonna rope you back. for

45:33

other stuff now. Sorry. Sorry. It's

45:35

it's no problem and i may do may

45:37

do the same. All right.

45:39

We'll take care and have a

45:41

great, and have a great happy All

45:44

right, take care. All right, take

45:46

care.