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No matter how you travel, it's good

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to have a plan. Some people plan

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with confidence today. Into credit

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karma, you can count on. Welcome

0:43

to Real Crime Profile. This is

0:46

Jim Clemente, retired FBI profiled, former

0:48

New York City prosecutor and right

0:50

producer of criminal minds and

0:52

bluebeard on audible. And with me

0:55

today is? Kathy Canning-Mellow, retired FBI

0:57

agent and profiler and we have

0:59

a very special guest continuing his

1:02

conversation about searching for missing persons

1:04

today and that is. Dr. Mark Harrison.

1:06

Hello again everyone. Hello, Dr.

1:08

Mark Harrison. And Dr. Mark

1:10

Harrison, can you tell us

1:12

a little bit about who you

1:15

are? Yes, I'm a 35-year police

1:17

veteran, specialized in search for

1:19

my career, and I've also

1:21

been a practitioner, academic, academic,

1:23

academic, so also a professor

1:25

for the last 20 years

1:28

at the same time as being

1:30

a cop. And a professor in

1:32

what field? Geophorensics. the

1:34

science of search that's awesome and I wish

1:36

I wish I had in my career in

1:39

the FBI I wish I had

1:41

more information like the information

1:43

that you have already shared with

1:45

us last week and this week

1:47

we're going to get into some

1:49

cool behavioral stuff that as you

1:51

know Kathy and I worked together

1:54

in the behavioral analysis unit for

1:56

more than a decade and we

1:58

love to talk about this. because

2:00

it's really important that people understand

2:02

what behavioral science actually is what

2:05

we can actually do and what

2:07

we can't do but the fact

2:10

is that fortunately the show criminal

2:12

minds we've educated a lot of

2:14

people around the world about what

2:17

behavioral science is and how criminal

2:19

behavioral profiling can help in cases

2:22

especially cases where there's no forensic

2:24

evidence. I understand that you wrote

2:26

a thesis on a topic that's

2:29

related to this. Can you tell

2:31

our listeners about that? Yeah, my

2:33

PhD thesis was on nobody murders.

2:36

It's the only thesis that's ever

2:38

been done on that. And it's

2:41

how to find homicide victims. That's

2:43

awesome. So one of the interesting

2:45

things is we spoke in the

2:48

last episode about the actual. searching

2:50

process and some of the technologies

2:53

and techniques that we have and

2:55

we we may well look at

2:57

some others in this episode but

3:00

one thing I'd also like to

3:02

explore today is how do we

3:04

assess an area for search and

3:07

how do we do that using

3:09

some behavioral sound behavioral knowledge and

3:12

techniques and from a search point

3:14

of view it's always important for

3:16

me to if there is a

3:19

behavioral profile. to allow myself of

3:21

that profile and really deeply understand

3:23

that. But often we might not

3:26

have a profile. We may have

3:28

an unknown offender and we really

3:31

don't have much information. So what

3:33

can we use behavior instead of

3:35

that? So in my career I've

3:38

used two models. One is the

3:40

statistical models. There's a database called

3:43

the Ketchum database and that's a

3:45

British database. that records old child

3:47

murders since 1960 and it records

3:50

in detail. not only the method

3:52

of perhaps their reduction, their murder,

3:54

but most importantly for me, how

3:57

they were disposed and where they

3:59

were disposed. And out of that

4:02

great statistical relevance has been born.

4:04

And it gives us some surety

4:06

on how far we'd expect a

4:09

body to be carried from a

4:11

vehicle or on foot, where we'd

4:14

expect it to be disposed of

4:16

in any given terrain or circumstances.

4:18

And all of that enables us

4:21

then to assess any given environment

4:23

against that statistical database. Now I've

4:25

tested that database for the last

4:28

35 years on over 300 cases

4:30

around the world and it does

4:33

stand true. Now I'm not going

4:35

to obviously go into the details

4:37

for your listeners because that database

4:40

is closely held by law enforcement

4:42

because of the information and knowledge

4:45

that gives us. But what the

4:47

interesting thing is is is that

4:49

we also have done some research

4:52

that I worked and commissioned some

4:54

research some years ago and we

4:56

actually took students and volunteers and

4:59

we created an environment and we

5:01

gave them a rock sac and

5:04

we said we want you to

5:06

go and hide this rock sac

5:08

and we had two groups. One

5:11

groups was go and hide it,

5:13

you're never going to come back

5:16

to it again so just discard

5:18

it. The other group were told

5:20

hide it very carefully because we're

5:23

going to call you back someday

5:25

and we want you to be

5:27

able to relocate it. The interesting

5:30

thing is it didn't matter. all

5:32

of them hit it very carefully

5:35

and the ones that we told

5:37

just get rid of it will

5:39

never come back. We actually said

5:42

no we're lying and we got

5:44

them to come back and they

5:47

could all find what they'd hidden

5:49

because human behaviour if you hide

5:51

something you tend to want to

5:54

know where you've put it and

5:56

you can cognitive recall with some

5:58

assistance in to doing that. The

6:01

other interesting thing is is every

6:03

single one of them hit it

6:06

with some consistency that we would

6:08

expect. of what we've learned from

6:10

the catching day to day. both

6:13

in distances they went and the

6:15

disposal choices that they made. And

6:18

there was only a slight variance

6:20

between male and female in that

6:22

the males tended to go a

6:25

little bit further than the females,

6:27

but that was it. The choice

6:29

and location was pretty much the

6:32

same. Wow. So we know that...

6:34

Did any of them get arrested

6:37

in the process? We had them

6:39

also miked up and with a

6:41

video camera, and we asked them

6:44

to give a running commentary of

6:46

what they were thinking as they

6:49

were going into this landscape, what

6:51

they were observing, what was going

6:53

through their mind, the choices they

6:56

were making. And that was a

6:58

rich stream of information that we

7:00

gathered, of consistency of how people

7:03

did this. Now, Dr. Nathan Bryan,

7:05

this was his PhD research, so

7:08

I'll give a good shout for

7:10

him. Seminal research, really important. But

7:12

what it did, it reaffirmed from

7:15

an evidence basis, what we know

7:17

from a casework basis through the

7:20

catching database. So that database we

7:22

use quite a lot. Now there's

7:24

another thing that we use and

7:27

it's called the Winthrop process. Now

7:29

that sounds quite interesting. What's Winthrop?

7:31

Is that an acronym for something?

7:34

Well it isn't actually. There was

7:36

a chat called Captain Winthrop and

7:39

Captain Winthrop was in the British

7:41

Army. and he was stationed in

7:43

Northern Ireland when the IRA were

7:46

at their worst. And the IRA,

7:48

the Irish Republican army, would have

7:51

these weapons caches. They would hide

7:53

their munitions and then they would

7:55

obviously get other people to recover

7:58

them so that they could then

8:00

do attacks either on civilians or

8:02

on the security services and the

8:05

British army that were there at

8:07

that time. And Captain Winthrop... came

8:10

up with a brilliant way of

8:12

finding these munitions and because he

8:14

was so successful at this it

8:17

became became part of military training.

8:19

So it wasn't a scientific in

8:22

that regard, but it was a

8:24

practical method that he found to

8:26

be effective and he's now used

8:29

the world over the US Secret

8:31

Service and others use this same

8:33

process and is taught. What I

8:36

did when I became aware of

8:38

this, I adapted it for homicide.

8:41

But here's the things I can

8:43

share. with your listeners is when

8:45

someone when one goes to a

8:48

landscape and one feels that there

8:50

may be a body there but

8:53

we don't know where these are

8:55

the these are the techniques and

8:57

the attributes that we would do

9:00

to try and assess that landscape

9:02

for its suitability of body dispose

9:04

and where that might be. So

9:07

the first thing we would do

9:09

is we would say okay assuming

9:12

the person will want to relocate

9:14

this whether consciously or subconsciously. They

9:16

would have chosen a clear identifiable

9:19

permanent prominent primary feature to place

9:21

that body out. What do I

9:24

mean by that? It could be

9:26

by a silver dead tree in

9:28

an evergreen forest. It could be

9:31

by a five bar gate, iron

9:33

gate as an entrance to a

9:35

field. It could be by... an

9:38

electricity pylon in an otherwise features

9:40

landscape. There'll be something that's prominent,

9:43

primary and permanent that anchors that

9:45

person to that area that they're

9:47

going to hide this body. The

9:50

other thing is, is they're going

9:52

to choose if a tool, an

9:55

area that has low witness potential

9:57

so that they can conceal themselves

9:59

from view. So the act of

10:02

disposal or revisiting or recovery or

10:04

removal. is not in full view.

10:06

So they've got some cover there.

10:09

The other thing that they're gonna

10:11

think about is that the the

10:14

place is navigable in daylight and

10:16

darkness. Because behaviorally, we have found

10:18

with body disposal, whilst it may

10:21

become a nighttime activity to dispose,

10:23

the revisiting, often as not, is

10:26

a daytime activity. And if we

10:28

go back to the earlier episode

10:30

where we talked about the murders

10:33

on the moors, those bodies were

10:35

disposed of in darkness. but revisited

10:37

in daylight. And so we all

10:40

can appreciate how the landscape changes

10:42

in its features in daylight to

10:45

darkness and therefore to be navigable

10:47

in that area there has to

10:49

be some key features to enable

10:52

someone to do that. a plausible

10:54

explanation for their presence there. So

10:56

it's either that the land is

10:58

owned by them or they've got

11:00

some rights of access to that

11:02

or some other reason that they

11:04

could give should they be disturbed

11:06

that there's a plausibility to be

11:08

there. And once we have those

11:11

attributes we can then layer on

11:13

some other attributes we can say

11:15

well what is the digability of

11:17

that area? How digable is it?

11:19

or if it's not going to

11:21

be digable how else could one

11:23

conceal? So for instance in a

11:25

wooded area as I said in

11:27

an early episode it's very difficult

11:30

to dig because of the root

11:32

systems. So often as not we

11:34

find people they either bury if

11:36

they choose a burial on the

11:38

edge of the wood or if

11:40

they choose the wood they look

11:42

for a fallen tree where the

11:44

root bowl is exposed that produces

11:47

a depression. where the body can

11:49

then be interred and then covered

11:51

over with some leaflet or something

11:53

like that. So they're looking for

11:55

those type of things. So when

11:57

we have this this Winthrop process

11:59

and we're apply this to homicide

12:01

disposal. We can go to any

12:03

given landscape or rural area and

12:06

we can then reflect upon this

12:08

and say, okay, what does this

12:10

landscape afford us? What does it

12:12

provide us and how? And if we can

12:14

decode it in that way, we can come

12:16

up with some hotspot areas to search.

12:19

So rather than them to search

12:21

the entire area, we come up

12:23

with certain key areas that we

12:25

might focus upon. So a couple of

12:27

examples of how that's been used.

12:29

in the past. Some years ago

12:31

I was asked to review a

12:34

serial killer case in Maine. Now

12:36

we're all familiar with Maine, it's

12:38

the forest state and this

12:40

was a very large forest.

12:42

And the detectives were

12:44

somewhat perplexed because they knew

12:47

that was some bodies in the

12:49

forest and they'd found one.

12:51

But they'd been searching for

12:53

several seasons trying to

12:56

cover the entire forest.

12:58

and not be successful. So

13:00

I reflected upon this and

13:02

applied this Winthrop process. And

13:04

going back to that example, I

13:06

said about the single silver tree

13:08

in an evergreen forest. Well, there

13:10

was a silver single tree in

13:12

this evergreen forest at the junction of

13:15

two tracks. I said, I think we're

13:17

going to have a look there. And I

13:19

think we have a look within 20 meters

13:21

radius of that. And we were very successful

13:24

and we found one of the victims.

13:27

Wow. And then I further looked through

13:29

the forest and I said, well, what

13:31

else is anomalous in there which would

13:33

be a permanent, prominent and primary

13:35

marker? There was a burnt out

13:37

vehicle, another intersection of tracks. So

13:39

again, in an evergreen forest, a

13:42

burnt out vehicle, anomalous. Maybe we'll

13:44

have a look around there and again

13:46

another victim. So it's not a

13:48

question of having to search the whole

13:50

forest. It's a question of identifying what

13:53

these key features would be. Both

13:55

of those locations very

13:57

clear features both navigable

13:59

in daylight and darkness, low

14:01

witness potential because of the cover

14:03

of the forest, got good concealment

14:06

from view, and you could plausibly

14:08

explain yourself, you're just traveling through

14:10

the forest, you know, you just

14:13

visit in the forest. So it

14:15

had all of those attributes that

14:17

would allow you to place a

14:19

body there. So did they ever

14:22

for a moment suspect that you

14:24

actually had placed the bodies there?

14:26

That would have been difficult Jim

14:28

because I was living in England

14:31

at the time. So you say,

14:33

yeah. And I've had other cases

14:35

where, you know, these, this system

14:38

has really assisted us in in

14:40

locating and where about I had

14:42

a case in Northern Ireland, whereby

14:44

this, this man had been recently

14:47

released, he was a sex offender

14:49

recent release from prison and almost

14:51

immediately. He abducted, raped and murdered

14:53

an elderly lady and then disposed

14:56

of her body. And in this

14:58

case, the Winthrop process was applied

15:00

to the area of where he

15:03

lived and at the bottom of

15:05

his farm was a stream. And

15:07

this stream had all these attributes

15:09

that I've just described, but it

15:12

had one other. And this is

15:14

an interesting one as well, where

15:16

we find in homicide. and we

15:18

call it the three C's, care,

15:21

custody and control. Because there's a

15:23

push-pull factor here when you're disposed

15:25

of a body. In some cases,

15:28

you want the body as far

15:30

away from you as possible so

15:32

you can disassociate yourself from it

15:34

and if the body's found, there's

15:37

no connection to you. But there's

15:39

also a pull factor in that

15:41

by having the body very close

15:43

to you and within your side...

15:46

you have care, custody and control

15:48

and therefore you may be able

15:50

to ensure further its enduring concealment.

15:53

However, should it be discovered, then

15:55

you've got a bit of a

15:57

problem to explain that. And in

15:59

this case, this dream was that

16:02

it had all the features of

16:04

the wind drop, it also had

16:06

three Cs, because from his bedroom

16:08

window, he actually had good line

16:11

of sight of where he had

16:13

placed his body, and he placed

16:15

this poor lady in the bank,

16:17

in the river bank. Now that's

16:20

interesting itself, because when we talk

16:22

about burial, burial is commonly talked

16:24

about in fiction and elsewhere. But

16:27

it's extremely rare, it features less

16:29

than 10% of all disposals. Why

16:31

is that? Because it's hard. It's

16:33

hard to gig. I mean, I

16:36

don't know. Have you tried to

16:38

bury a body before? Have your

16:40

listeners? It's actually quite difficult. I've

16:42

done this in controlled environments and

16:45

it's quite challenging. While you were

16:47

working in London, yeah. So it's

16:49

not to be recommended. So barrel

16:52

is challenging. So people. tend to

16:54

either do something very shallow or

16:56

covering over or they find other

16:58

means and we've mentioned in the

17:01

previous episode water. But when it

17:03

comes to a river bank, if

17:05

one is going to do a

17:07

barrel, it is always easier to

17:10

dig into a shelf than to

17:12

dig down. Digging in a shelf

17:14

to remove the soil is much

17:17

easier than to dig down and

17:19

also a river bank has what

17:21

we call alluvial soils. It's just

17:23

a fancy word to mean they're

17:26

soft and easy to come out.

17:28

and then the body can be

17:30

put in the shelf and compacted

17:32

in. And you might also have

17:35

the added bonus of the body

17:37

then can be flushed, flushed away

17:39

if there's a flood event or

17:42

something like that. So that's how

17:44

we found that lady. So the

17:46

Winthrop process is, it's, although it

17:48

started by Captain Winthrop and he

17:51

wasn't thinking of it behavior, is

17:53

a behavioral aspect because it's trying

17:55

to understand how the consistency of

17:57

what people do. and what we

18:00

do find from the Winthrop techniques

18:02

and the catch of data. is

18:04

as a species we're very lazy.

18:07

We only do the minimum that

18:09

we need to do to achieve

18:11

our aim. Now some people will

18:13

give you examples of serial killers

18:16

that have gone to extraordinary lengths

18:18

of disposal and dismem could be

18:20

such an example perhaps, but there's

18:22

still a rationality and a consistency

18:25

in that can can be decoded.

18:27

And just touching briefly on dismemment.

18:29

When I've dealt with dismemment cases,

18:32

what I do find is all

18:34

the cases I've dealt with, the

18:36

people tend to do a lot

18:38

of planning and they tend to

18:41

write that down. And that's really

18:43

kind of them because it enables

18:45

me to understand the method and

18:47

the mode of that. And then

18:50

the choice that they make of

18:52

disposal of those dismembered remains tends

18:54

to have a consistent pattern. So

18:56

for instance, I had... a case

18:59

where someone was dismembered in a

19:01

block of apartments and so it

19:03

became what we call a weight

19:06

management issue. You have someone who

19:08

is dead in the apartment, you

19:10

can't get the person out the

19:12

lift and take them out in

19:15

front of everyone so they're dismembered

19:17

within the apartment and then they're

19:19

removed piece by piece. But the

19:21

person then disposed them with a

19:24

level of consistency just along a

19:26

canal. and the dispersal was dispersed

19:28

it was still along a canal.

19:31

So when one found the first

19:33

part one decoded well the other

19:35

parts are going to be on

19:37

a canal and I've had other

19:40

similar cases where there's a consistency

19:42

in that in that deposition type

19:44

of method the emo still stays

19:46

the same in that regard. Interesting.

19:49

I find that the prominent, permanent,

19:51

and primary feature fascinating and incredibly

19:53

useful. And the thought behind it

19:56

is that the offender, it's a

19:58

constant. decision it's intentional with the

20:00

thought that I may have to

20:02

come back to this location or

20:05

maybe I want to come back

20:07

to this location at some point

20:09

so I'll need to be able

20:11

to find it so I'm going

20:14

to find this prominent permanent primary

20:16

feature so it'll help me in my

20:18

in my desire to come back

20:20

to visit this for whatever reason. Yeah

20:22

so one of the things we've also

20:25

done is in through that

20:27

research that we did with

20:29

Dr Nathan Ryan was about

20:31

enhanced cognitive interviewing in

20:34

the field. And the reason

20:36

of this is is I had

20:38

a case and it was in

20:40

Germany and this this lady had

20:43

she was an adult but

20:45

she'd been raped as a

20:47

child and she'd given birth

20:49

to the child and the

20:51

baby was then hidden in

20:53

the Bavarian forest a

20:55

very large forest. And

20:57

this trauma came to the surface

20:59

as an adult and of course the

21:02

question by the German police was

21:04

what's the veracity of this is

21:07

this a false memory syndrome or

21:09

is this actually an accurate

21:11

thing and then it's a question of

21:13

how does one relocate you know

21:15

a fetal humor remains in

21:18

the Bavarian forest and so

21:20

this technique was developed to

21:22

to do enhanced cognitive recall.

21:25

and the process that we

21:27

undertook was to take the person

21:29

back to the location and for

21:31

them to start where that journey

21:33

happened that that evening because it

21:35

was they went from daylight to

21:37

dusk before they gave birth and

21:40

at each stage to say what was

21:42

in their mind what were they feeling

21:44

and what did they expect to see

21:46

next and by anticipating

21:49

what the next visual cue

21:51

was we could then at least move

21:53

to that next stage and say well

21:55

we have some assurance that we're on the

21:57

right path. If any stage the person then

21:59

got... and said I'm unsure we'd

22:01

return to the last confirmed visual

22:04

cue and say well let's actually

22:06

do the three points four points

22:08

to the compass this probe to

22:11

the north to the south east

22:13

the west until you get to

22:16

a level of confidence that you're

22:18

again on the right path and

22:20

what would be the next feature

22:23

that you would see and we

22:25

found that this was a very

22:27

effective way to get someone to

22:30

step very slowly very carefully under

22:32

a great deal of distress to

22:34

actually locate something that otherwise wouldn't

22:37

be possible. Now that was successful

22:39

and so then we developed that

22:42

further and now we're actually trial

22:44

in this and I see great

22:46

benefit in what I call the

22:49

nobody no parole type of scenarios

22:51

where you have incarcerated offenders that

22:53

are motivated to relocate their victims.

22:56

But the challenge to detect is

22:58

when they come out, the offender

23:01

says, oh, I'm really trying to

23:03

help you here, but that mountain's

23:05

moved since I was last here.

23:08

Now, here's a clue listeners, geologically,

23:10

that's not possible, okay? And this

23:12

is a volcano, right? So, but

23:15

they try and cloud the mind.

23:17

So they're trying to demonstrate that

23:19

they're being helpful to obviously get

23:22

their parole, but it's not their

23:24

fault that the body could be

23:27

found. So this type of technique

23:29

aligned to the Winthrop technique of

23:31

what we'd expect can actually assist

23:34

in the veracity of what the

23:36

person's saying and if they truly

23:38

are willing and compliant should help

23:41

aid and assist them to relocate

23:43

their victim even after the passage

23:45

of time. So that's another technique

23:48

that we're exploring further now. That's

23:50

amazing. on the Winthrop process the

23:53

permanent primary and prominent. aspect, but

23:55

I'd like to revisit the three

23:57

C's care, custody, and control because

24:00

I think maybe you should add

24:02

another C and I'm not sure

24:04

which C it should be, but

24:07

something like commemorate or contemplate or

24:09

cherish because I think because I

24:12

think another reason is that they

24:14

can, it helps them. if it's

24:16

in a location that that they

24:19

have care custody and control of

24:21

then they can also revisit it

24:23

and and and fantasize about the

24:26

the crime that they committed and

24:28

the fact that there's a body

24:30

there that nobody knows about and

24:33

i think that may also be

24:35

a real important factor for at

24:38

least some offenders I could only

24:40

agree with that. I've certainly had

24:42

cases where people have gone back

24:45

and done what can only be

24:47

described as gardening. They've literally, it's

24:49

almost the deposition made have been

24:52

a bit hasty. The revisit in

24:54

the next days is to further

24:56

conceal. And then over the past

24:59

year time, the seasons, they keep

25:01

going back to cultivate, to garden,

25:04

to try and... you know, make

25:06

the error even more indistinguishable from

25:08

that. And as we spoke in

25:11

the previous episode in the moor's

25:13

murderers, they went back and they

25:15

were actually picnically on the graves

25:18

of these children. So I think

25:20

commemorate is certainly or curate, maybe

25:22

even a term as well. Yes.

25:25

So we may be going to

25:27

four or five C's. I hope

25:30

Mr. Winthrop or Captain Winthrop doesn't

25:32

have a problem with that. Well

25:34

Captain Winthrop has long passed. I

25:37

know but yeah. I'm sure he

25:39

doesn't. I'm sure he's commemorating or

25:41

curating something somewhere at this point.

25:44

So these behavioral traits that they're

25:46

very very important when one when

25:49

one looking at the search. So

25:51

if we look at geophorensics is

25:53

the science of search and and

25:56

so therefore one can have the

25:58

right tools and techniques and assets.

26:00

But if one's looking in the

26:03

wrong area or through the long

26:05

behavioral lens. one is not going

26:07

to find what one is looking

26:10

for. And so therefore it is

26:12

the marriage of those two because

26:15

the art of hiding is a

26:17

human behavior. The art of finding

26:19

is a human behavior. So if

26:22

we understand human behavior and we

26:24

have the right tools and techniques,

26:26

we will find what we're looking

26:29

for. And that sounds quite simplistic,

26:31

but that essentially is, you know,

26:33

what my work is and that's

26:36

how I try and convey it.

26:38

Too often. we don't put the

26:41

effort into understanding the behavior of

26:43

the person, and we put more

26:45

value on activity. So it's more

26:48

important to have large numbers of

26:50

people out there walking up and

26:52

down, poking sticks in the ground,

26:55

in a walking north in a

26:57

line. So that's that's considered a

26:59

high priority rather than a reflective

27:02

piece of saying, well, there's actually.

27:04

try to understand the behavior we

27:07

might be dealing with, decode that

27:09

through the landscape of which we're

27:11

looking at, and therefore any searches

27:14

we do will have a higher

27:16

assurance and with less resources but

27:18

more specialized resources because of what

27:21

we might be looking for. It's

27:23

really important. Yeah. Have you... I

27:26

know in certain cases the offenders

27:28

and especially under this program that...

27:30

they can't get out unless they

27:33

actually lead the long to where

27:35

the disposal sites were. Have you

27:37

ever tried cognitive interviewing with them?

27:40

I mean, if they are actually

27:42

trying to cooperate rather than saying

27:44

that mountains moved? So what we

27:47

do find interesting, Jim, is typically

27:49

with those offenders, or even if

27:52

someone has been arrested and then

27:54

they suddenly confess, the detectives, I

27:56

do one of two things. They'll

27:59

either put them in a car

28:01

and rush to the scene of

28:03

what's described and then say, well,

28:06

go and point it out to

28:08

me. That has huge problems because

28:10

often the detective will go to

28:13

the location and park up what's

28:15

convenient for them. It may not

28:18

actually be the location and the

28:20

root of entry that the offender

28:22

took and so therefore they're instantly

28:25

disorientated. So there's one thing. They

28:27

may have gone in the dark.

28:29

It may be daylight now. they

28:32

may have gone in summer, it

28:34

may be full of snow now

28:37

in the winter. So those things

28:39

can be problematic. Another trap that

28:41

investigators fall into is I'll produce

28:44

a map. There's the map, point

28:46

on the map where this is.

28:48

Now not many killers are really

28:51

good map readers. Not many killers

28:53

are really good at interpreting satellite

28:55

imagery. And so therefore what we've

28:58

done is some research, and we

29:00

did some research on this, when

29:03

people are presenting with a map

29:05

or a satellite image like Google

29:07

Earth or something, they will feel

29:10

compelled to just stab their fingers

29:12

somewhere because they feel that that's

29:14

what's being required of them and

29:17

that's what they will give. And

29:19

it's not at all where that

29:21

body is, but they feel somehow

29:24

that they're trying to be helpful.

29:26

What we do know is... when

29:29

we've just discussed now about the

29:31

wind drop and the other process

29:33

of deposition. We're seeing that in

29:36

a 3D walk-through scenario, almost like

29:38

a Google Street view type of

29:40

manner. And so therefore, one has

29:43

to recreate that in exactly the

29:45

same route that they took in

29:47

order for us to be successful.

29:50

So the work that I've done

29:52

with some of these criminals is

29:55

to actually say, where did we

29:57

commence this journey? So if it's

29:59

a property, you know, the body's

30:02

been put in the car, guess

30:04

what? That's where we start. and

30:06

off we go and what route

30:09

did you take and we keep

30:11

going there and this might go

30:14

on for hours until we actually

30:16

get to the disposal location. So

30:18

there's because all of that is

30:21

essential in enabling the offender bearing

30:23

money if they're compliant to actually

30:25

get into that mindset back to

30:28

that that cognitive recall so that

30:30

when we arrive at that scene

30:32

there then there we know that

30:35

they're at the right location their

30:37

jump off point so as to

30:40

speak. before we go further forward

30:42

as opposed to just leapfrog to

30:44

some lay by or parking lot

30:47

that is convenient for the security

30:49

detail of the detective and then

30:51

the man whose manacled in chains

30:54

is then left to wander around

30:56

and try and work and orientate

30:58

himself or herself and find it

31:01

really difficult. Right, I mean it

31:03

sounds like that's a practical cognitive

31:06

interview because you're actually taking them

31:08

through in a cognitive interview just

31:10

for our listeners who may not

31:13

know what that is. We take

31:15

the, what we try to do

31:17

is right in the beginning, talk

31:20

to them, ask them to, you

31:22

know, relax, get them in an

31:24

environment where they feel safe and

31:27

calm and relaxed, and then take

31:29

them to the very beginning of

31:32

the day when they woke up.

31:34

and then try to engage all

31:36

of their senses and how did

31:39

you feel what temperature was it

31:41

was the light coming in through

31:43

the window all those things and

31:46

then what did you do what

31:48

you know step by step and

31:51

they might say well I ate

31:53

breakfast and left no no let's

31:55

which side what did you do

31:58

pull off the covers you know

32:00

did you get out of bed

32:02

on the left side in the

32:05

right side did you brush your

32:07

teeth you know all that kind

32:09

of stuff to get them thinking

32:12

their brains thinking in that kind

32:14

of detail and then by the

32:17

time they get to the actual

32:19

event their brain is already churning

32:21

out information I'm in that detail

32:24

the scale of it is is

32:26

much more detailed so that they're

32:28

not just we're not they're not

32:31

going from you know absolute zero

32:33

to you know boiling in one

32:35

second we're taking them step by

32:37

step by step and it sounds

32:39

like you're doing that in the

32:41

real world with these with these

32:43

offenders and that's that's really cool

32:45

process. So one of the things we

32:47

found Jim to add to that

32:49

is actually in that interview process

32:51

we've found rather than give them a

32:53

map or an aerial image given a

32:55

blank piece of paper. with a

32:57

pencil or pen and say you

32:59

draw us a map and what

33:02

we found is is that just

33:04

the art of drawing age recall

33:06

yeah that in itself we

33:08

don't quite know why but

33:10

we know that that does

33:13

well could it be because

33:15

I mean we we always

33:17

talk about physically writing actually

33:20

in in post-traumatic stress situations

33:22

where sort of there's a wall

33:24

between the practical side of your

33:26

brain that actually says I have

33:28

to do something now to save

33:30

my life and the emotional side

33:32

of your brain in PTSD that

33:35

there's sort of a wall built

33:37

between them and one of the

33:39

ways to get across that is

33:41

to write out what you went

33:43

through the traumatic event and the

33:45

physicality of writing it. brings it

33:48

over to the practical side of the

33:50

brain, the emotions over to this practical

33:52

side of the brain, and breaks down

33:55

that barrier. So perhaps it's the same

33:57

kind of thing in your memory that

33:59

if... it is yeah and

34:01

to add to that what

34:03

we found is that not

34:05

only the actual act of

34:07

drawing a map age recall

34:10

but what is really interesting

34:12

is the scale so the

34:14

things seem disproportionate but they're

34:16

proportionate to importance so for

34:18

instance the say the lay

34:20

by where the vehicle was

34:22

parked with the body is

34:24

disproportionately large to the road

34:26

or the root that they

34:28

took. The, say, the tree

34:30

of which the body is

34:33

buried beneath is disproportionately large

34:35

in scale to the rest

34:37

of the map of the

34:39

wood itself. And so these

34:41

aspects are also highly significant

34:43

because we look at the

34:45

map not from a scale

34:47

point of view, but from

34:49

the proportionality of importance of

34:51

these features. And then that

34:53

can assist not only in

34:56

their recall. can assist someone

34:58

like myself to say, okay,

35:00

these are the features I'm

35:02

now going to be looking

35:04

for to see if that

35:06

that resonates in this landscape

35:08

that we're going to go

35:10

to. Wow, that's, that's, the

35:12

primary and prominence comes back

35:14

again. Yeah, there you go.

35:16

Yeah, that's interesting. Wow. Well,

35:19

this has been really really

35:21

interesting work. I'm so happy

35:23

that we got to have

35:25

you on these last two

35:27

weeks on real crime profile.

35:29

Thank you, Kathy. And yeah,

35:31

I just had a question.

35:33

Are there current efforts underway

35:35

to try to find Keith

35:37

Bennett using these techniques? We're

35:39

always looking at opportunities for

35:42

that. But we keep the

35:44

the actual activity fairly low

35:46

key because there's an awful

35:48

lot of media interest and

35:50

it can easily, the more

35:52

is a very difficult landscape

35:54

to actually do the work

35:56

because it can easily be

35:58

disrupted and confused with other

36:00

activities. So yes, the search

36:02

will go on. We will

36:05

find Keith, I'm certain of

36:07

it. But yeah, the techniques

36:09

just take time to play

36:11

through in that regard. Yes.

36:13

Sure. Well, we wish you

36:15

luck. And of course, these

36:17

murders happened a long time

36:19

ago, but I'm still, I'm

36:21

sure there are still people.

36:23

you know, family members and

36:25

descendants who would love to

36:28

have those cases solved. Well,

36:30

his brother, he's, unfortunately his

36:32

mother's passed away some years

36:34

ago, but his brother is

36:36

still active in the pursuit

36:38

of justice for finding his

36:40

brother. Well, heart to go

36:42

out to him and to

36:44

all the other victims of

36:46

unsolved crimes or... crimes where

36:48

their loved ones were never

36:51

bought home. All right, well,

36:53

thank you so much. Dr.

36:55

Mark Harrison for coming out

36:57

and just overwhelming us with

36:59

new information. I mean, Kathy

37:01

and I are both professionals

37:03

and we learned a lot

37:05

here. This is amazing. Yeah,

37:07

thank you so much. Congrats

37:09

on your new PhD in

37:11

philosophy, I guess, which I

37:14

thought that was really interesting

37:16

that it's philosophy degree for

37:18

missing persons investigations. Yeah, yeah.

37:20

And to your listeners, I

37:22

just want to say what

37:24

a privilege is to be

37:26

on this show. It's a

37:28

fantastic show. We all enjoy

37:30

it. And I have enjoyed

37:32

working with the FBI profile

37:34

unit many times have such

37:37

a high regard. It's it.

37:39

without doubt it's the best

37:41

of the world and yet

37:43

fantastic work you and your

37:45

colleagues have done and the

37:47

the successes that I've had

37:49

really couldn't do it without

37:51

profiling. Profile is so underutilized,

37:53

it's amazing. So thank you.

37:55

Yeah, well and people, a

37:57

lot of, some people think,

38:00

I was just interviewed recently

38:02

by a student, a lot

38:04

of times they contact me

38:06

and they want to do

38:08

an interview and the student

38:10

said, do you think that

38:12

profiling will ever get to

38:14

the point where it's respected

38:16

and productive in helping resolve

38:18

cases, criminal cases? And I

38:20

said, well I don't know.

38:23

where you're reading this information,

38:25

but perhaps you should read

38:27

from people, articles or books,

38:29

from people who have actually

38:31

practiced it, and you will

38:33

then understand how it has

38:35

been successful since... the 70s,

38:37

1970s. That's 50 plus years.

38:39

And it is getting better

38:41

all the time because of

38:43

course the amount of information,

38:46

the data that we have

38:48

is just. astronomically larger, exponentially

38:50

larger than the original profilers

38:52

had because we've continued all

38:54

the research and the interviews

38:56

and science has advanced. So

38:58

it has helped tremendously and

39:00

it's so great to hear

39:02

about new areas of behavioral

39:04

investigative research that you have

39:06

done and that you are

39:09

using to help try to

39:11

resolve these very difficult cases.

39:13

Well I would say to

39:15

do fun of things I'd

39:17

say the science research yeah

39:19

forensics is nothing without a

39:21

human profile because it's human

39:23

behavior that it that it

39:25

decodes and works with and

39:27

the second thing I would

39:29

say is maybe put the

39:32

student in touch with me

39:34

I could give some good

39:36

examples where it's been very

39:38

useful. Okay well I I

39:40

will do that I will

39:42

do that and that hopefully

39:44

the student will reach out

39:46

to you as well. Yes.

39:48

All right well thank you

39:50

so much for joining us.

39:52

on Real Profile

39:55

and thank you

39:57

and thank you the

39:59

world for

40:01

listening. the world This

40:03

is now is

40:05

Crime Profile,

40:07

signing off. off.