0:07

On a camping trip in the summer

0:09

of 1960, two couples in Finland were

0:12

brutally attacked in the night, leaving only

0:14

one survivor. With few clues

0:16

to go off of, the identity of the

0:18

attacker and the motive for the crime remain

0:20

unknown. Today, we examine the

0:22

background and the suspects of the Lake

0:25

Bodum murders. This

0:27

is Red Web. Welcome

0:38

back Task Force 2. Let's

0:40

just call it yet another season of

0:42

Red Web, the podcast all about true

0:44

crime, unsolved mysteries, and the

0:47

supernatural. I'm your resident mystery enthusiast,

0:49

Trevor Collins. Joining me, as

0:51

you know, hearing this case for the very first time,

0:54

Alfredo Diaz. Yeah, what season are

0:56

we? Red episode? You'll never

0:58

know. True. We're gonna make

1:00

this impossible to find. But if you do find out.

1:02

I like even numbers. Yeah. I think

1:04

we're just gonna skip the four. He likes

1:06

even. I hate even numbers. This

1:13

podcast instills a lot of fears in me.

1:15

And one of the things I think that's

1:17

a consistent fear now is just don't go

1:19

camping. Man, just don't. Already, like you got

1:21

to have a love and a passion for

1:23

it, you know, to on

1:26

dirt and they cover it up.

1:28

I guess. And then I'm just I'm

1:30

a magnet for mosquitoes, you

1:33

know, and it's just like the bugs and stuff

1:35

like that. Like I enjoy the wilderness, but the

1:37

bugs that get me. And then on top of

1:39

that, you can get lost. Okay. You

1:41

get lost in the middle of the woods. True. And

1:44

I experienced on these trails. And then also just prime

1:46

time in prime time for

1:48

like any stranger to just come up on you

1:51

because who else is in the middle of the woods? The

1:53

whole point is to be a little bit secluded. And

1:55

it kind of amplifies the fear that I have. And

1:58

this is like random, but like, I don't like. open,

2:00

not open windows, just windows that are exposed at

2:03

night. Ooh. You know what I mean? Like it

2:05

looks nice during the day where it's like, oh,

2:07

look outside. You can look inside, but at night

2:09

when people can look inside, but you can't see

2:12

outside because it's so dark. I don't like that.

2:14

And that kind of, for me, translates to like

2:16

camping in a tent where I just don't know

2:18

what the hell is outside. Something could be 10

2:21

feet away from you staring at you and

2:23

you have no clue that it's there. That is

2:25

so, oh my God. I think you implanted

2:28

a new fear in me. I'm

2:30

saying, I'm just saying. Because like in nature, they

2:32

don't need their eyes either. They can smell you

2:34

a mile away, like shark with blood in the

2:36

water. You know? Yup. Now this throws me back

2:38

to a TV show from 2005 called

2:41

It Takes a Thief, where they would

2:44

purposely burglarize people's houses just so they could

2:46

prove that their security system wasn't up to

2:49

snuff. And that's where I learned exactly

2:51

what you're saying. When it's nighttime and you can't

2:53

see out the window, but you got the lights

2:55

on inside. Anyone in the front

2:57

yard, backyard, whatever, can just see right in. Oh

2:59

my God. That sounds terrible. I don't like it.

3:01

It was an amazing show. Oh, I bet. Also,

3:04

I don't like it. So

3:06

you're more of a glamper. You got to be

3:08

in the RV. You got to be on wheels,

3:11

but a windowless RV that's smell proof. Yes.

3:13

Yeah. There's a lot of conditions. Okay. Yeah.

3:15

And at least two toilets because, you know, you

3:18

can't just have one acupado because then you're out

3:20

there kicking dirt, like you said. And then

3:22

if you blow it up, obviously it's going

3:24

to sit there for like 10 minutes and everyone's

3:26

going to know what you cooked up. That's

3:30

true. Here's the thing. I'm totally

3:32

with you because we've covered these cases before where

3:34

it's like missing four one one. Just people can

3:37

literally you turn around, you turn back and

3:39

a child is missing. You're walking with your

3:41

friend. They go maybe 15 feet ahead of

3:43

you. They crest the hill. You crest the

3:46

hill. They're gone. Right. I remember that episode.

3:48

And it's a whole subsect of disappearances. Like

3:50

we said, that had been classified as what's

3:52

called missing four one one. A whole episode

3:54

we talked about task force. Go check it

3:56

out, but I'm with you. Nature

3:59

is scary. it's built to kill. It's

4:01

like, you know, we've been talking a

4:03

lot about alien, alien Romulus, for example.

4:06

And these xenomorphs are the perfect killing machine.

4:08

The world is filled with evolutionary creatures that

4:10

have built to eat whatever stumbles into their

4:12

path. Yes. And Bigfoot. Yeah, Bigfoot. Which I

4:14

still, the wildest thing out of the Bigfoot

4:16

episode was the theory that they're all up

4:18

in the trees. We never look up, you

4:20

know? We're always thinking they're clomping their feet

4:22

around the ground looking for footsteps. That's true.

4:24

They could drop from a tree at a

4:26

moment's notice. So there must be like, oh,

4:28

300 pounds. Yeah,

4:30

those trees are like eking and creaking.

4:32

You think that's the wind? That's a

4:34

family of Bigfoot. Yep. Well,

4:37

here we are at the precipice of the

4:39

spooky season. This episode is coming out here at

4:41

the penultimate week of September. I am feeling the

4:44

autumn vibes, but I want to

4:46

give a huge shout out to our Patreon

4:48

members and the exclusive content coming out this

4:50

week is something that we've been super hyped

4:52

about for years. A long time ago, speaking

4:54

about getting lost in the wilderness, by the

4:56

way, we've talked about an episode called the

4:58

Randonautica app. This was an app that kind

5:01

of like is supposed to read the intention

5:03

out of your mind and develop a random

5:05

spot for you to then go essentially geocaching.

5:08

And we are finally gonna go

5:10

Randonauticking, or however you would

5:12

say it, use the Randonautica app and go out

5:14

there and explore. And that was going to be

5:16

a bonus video this week on September 25th, it's

5:19

coming out on Patreon. It

5:21

is the best way to support us. We

5:23

do bonus videos like that. You have this

5:25

podcast ad free among some other stuff going

5:27

on, but that is our big bonus here

5:30

for September as the spooky season kicks off.

5:32

You can find all that and more at

5:34

patreon.com/redweb. Just a few shout outs before we

5:36

continue, task force members, T-Trex,

5:39

one, Flame Light, and of course

5:41

a handful of our luscious, meltable

5:43

squonks. You have Zachary Orr, Mitch

5:45

W, Tgyk94, and Brett O'Mura. Thank

5:47

you all so much for supporting

5:49

the show directly and being Patreon

5:51

members. Oh yeah, thank you. The

5:53

life blood, not that we zap

5:56

from your youth, but maybe. But we might,

5:58

you know. The option's there. And if it

6:01

happens, it's accidental. You walk in the front

6:03

door and you feel just a little ache

6:05

in your knees. That could be anything. A

6:07

storm coming in, our youth rays, anything. Yeah.

6:11

So we're recording this, Freda, before our Randonautica app.

6:13

Yes, we are. So maybe I don't want to

6:15

tell you about something that happened in the woods,

6:18

but we're gonna do it. You

6:20

know, I'm highlighting your fear before we then go

6:22

out into the wild. Yeah, at least

6:24

it won't be dark. I don't know, man. I'm just

6:26

kind of like trying to take what I can get. Yeah,

6:29

we're gonna do it at the golden hour because

6:31

there is like levels of actual danger

6:33

going out pitch black into the night,

6:35

into the woods. But with that said,

6:37

you know, let's talk about this case,

6:39

something that went down very similar environment.

6:41

We're on a lake near the woods

6:43

in the middle of the night. And

6:46

of course, as with many cases of

6:48

this nature, we're talking about true crime.

6:50

We've got a few sensitive topics listed

6:52

in the description for your convenience. But

6:54

with that, let me take you back to June

6:56

5th, 1960,

6:59

we have two teenage couples who went

7:01

on a camping trip in Espo, Finland.

7:03

So Espo is a city about 20

7:06

kilometers or 12 and a half miles

7:08

from the capital city of Helsinki. The

7:10

group consisted of two 15 year old

7:12

girls named Myla Bjorklund and Anya Mackey.

7:15

And their 18 year old boyfriends, Niels

7:17

Gustafsson and Seppo Boismann. Now

7:19

that might stand out to you. The age of consent in Finland

7:21

has been 16 since the year 1971, though, according

7:25

to George Mason University, the age of consent

7:27

at this time was around 12. Jesus. It

7:29

was low. That was the 1920s law, I

7:31

believe. Yeah. Yeah. Things are different. Not just

7:33

in this realm, I'm in like category, but

7:35

like in all kinds of different ways. Oh

7:37

yeah. You don't gotta throw the stone back

7:39

too far in time to see a lot

7:42

of differences. So the group is

7:44

now going out. They're going on a camping trip,

7:46

right? And they pitched a tent next to Lake

7:48

Bodum, a popular destination near the city of Espo.

7:50

Now it's not super remote. The city is kind

7:52

of right there, maybe 15, 20

7:54

minutes to get to the heart of the

7:57

city, depending on traffic, but it is quite

7:59

big, quite expansive. And when you look

8:01

at any photos, you can see just how

8:03

flat and large the lake is. You look

8:05

across from it and it does feel very

8:08

remote. In fact, the entire Western side is

8:10

surrounded by dense woods. Now

8:12

around 11 a.m. the next morning, a man

8:14

named Esko Owa Johansen, a local carpenter, discovered

8:16

the disturbing aftermath when he arrived at Lake

8:19

Bodum for a swim. It's worth mentioning, by

8:21

the way, that some sources claim that the

8:23

man that discovered the scene was actually named

8:25

Risto Ciren. And that is just par for

8:28

the course, by the way, whenever we look

8:30

back in time, especially at European cases, a

8:33

lot of sources kind of have differing

8:35

information. And so I always want to

8:37

point that out. You can have very

8:39

fickle, if not downright misleading sources. And

8:41

so just some caveats here. Yeah,

8:43

there's no certification, right? For the information

8:46

that's being passed around. Right.

8:48

No one's checking to make sure this is correct. And so

8:50

game of telephone, man. I also don't think that, you know,

8:53

mid 1900s, people are like, man, there's

8:55

going to be a lot of podcasts that want to know.

8:57

Yeah, that's true. So

9:00

it's just like local police doing their

9:02

thing. You know, some journalists got ahold

9:04

of some pieces, but they're not like,

9:06

we need to mark down everything for

9:08

the future. It's just, we need what

9:10

we need to solve the case. And

9:12

that's that, right? It's not like nowadays,

9:14

especially with the internet where everyone's like,

9:16

we need to log everything. It's also

9:18

easier to, but then also that spans

9:20

until like everyone wanting to like collect

9:22

everything, because it could potentially mean something,

9:25

whether of monetary value or informational

9:27

value down the line. Absolutely.

9:29

I mean, even documentaries, there are investigative

9:31

documentaries like the jinx. So

9:34

whether you're financially incentivized or you're after

9:36

closing an open case, you know, there's

9:38

just a lot happening these days, a

9:40

lot of ways to document. Now

9:43

it is estimated that between the hours

9:45

of 4 a.m. and 6 a.m. that night,

9:47

someone attacked the group through their tent. This

9:50

likely comes from a few things, for example,

9:52

analyzing the conditions of the body and the

9:54

wounds at the time of discovery. But

9:56

there's also some other details that we're gonna talk

9:59

about soon during the- investigation phase of

10:01

this case that kind of help

10:03

with this timeline. Now Mackey and

10:05

Boiseman were still inside the tent

10:07

when Johansson found them. Bjorklund was

10:09

on top of the tent and

10:11

she was naked from the waist down

10:13

and Gustafsson was also found on top

10:16

of the tent though he survived the

10:18

attack suffering a concussion, fractures to his

10:20

jaw and face and several stab wounds.

10:23

In fact all of the teens seemed to

10:25

suffer blunt force trauma to their heads and

10:27

various stab wounds that kind of seemed to

10:29

be the method of attack for all of

10:32

them and Bjorklund seemed to

10:34

suffer the most stab wounds which appeared

10:36

to be especially violent. Earmark

10:38

that a little bit, put a post note on

10:40

your screen because we'll come back to that idea

10:42

in the theories. As

10:44

of right now I think it's one person right?

10:46

One person okay. Yeah so as of right now

10:48

I kind of think it's like one person but

10:50

also it's like okay if

10:52

you're going after a whole family

10:54

and you're using something that's like

10:57

a melee weapon essentially it's just

10:59

so it's so intimate comparatively to

11:01

like a gun. Absolutely yeah. And

11:03

when it's one person that's a

11:05

whole other thing but you've got

11:07

to think that as this it's

11:09

brutal but like as this killer

11:11

was murdering this group of people

11:13

I mean it's not like he did it all

11:15

at once I mean all at all

11:17

in the same time frame yes but not

11:19

all at the same time exact time so

11:22

you think that like you'd hear the screams

11:24

like if you're further down the kill order

11:26

then you hear the screams of other people

11:28

you know what I mean it's just right

11:30

like someone's being attacked means the other three

11:32

perhaps or maybe not and so yeah yeah

11:35

it's 100 right that this is not something

11:37

that you could just click a trigger and

11:39

be done right yep this takes a lot

11:41

of violence a lot of aggression whatever the

11:43

emotions are to continue to move from one

11:46

to the next and you're up in their

11:48

face and it takes a lot of you

11:50

know heightened adrenaline effort you know to continue

11:52

a crime like this so you're totally correct

11:54

in that sense so the

11:57

killer it seemed used a knife and

11:59

some kind of blunt object obviously, though

12:01

since neither weapon was ever discovered, investigators believe

12:04

that it may have been a rock, something

12:06

locally used, something that you could find on

12:08

the shore of the lake. Johansson

12:10

then called the police who arrived at the scene about

12:13

an hour later. He saw them

12:15

around 11 a.m. and the

12:17

police arrived around noon. And that

12:19

moves us now into the investigation

12:21

phase of this pretty brutal crime

12:23

scene. Now, before we continue,

12:25

Fredo, we do have some photos of this

12:28

case. Oh Lord. But

12:30

I will say we cherry picked, there are

12:32

some that are pretty fully gory online task

12:34

force. If you're interested in looking that up,

12:36

viewer discretion is advised. Though we

12:38

do have one from the scene

12:40

with investigators looking at the tent. If you

12:43

wanna see what that scene looked like as

12:45

investigators are kind of lifting up the tent

12:47

and analyzing it, it's black and white, but

12:49

it is again, it's a little gory. But

12:52

otherwise, most of these photos will be posted

12:54

as always on our social or the YouTube

12:56

video version of the podcast. That's

12:58

the first image I have for you. Okay.

13:01

Whoa. Yeah, so

13:03

there's like, are there

13:06

like park rangers? There's like

13:08

men with black dress pants,

13:10

a white dress shirt with the sleeves

13:12

rolled up and a black thin tie.

13:14

Not the type of like people you'd

13:16

think to see at a crime scene.

13:19

Yeah, it's like a very prim and

13:21

proper, almost to Americanize it a little

13:23

bit, FBI style outfit without the jacket.

13:25

Yeah. And then you have an Oxford

13:27

shirt, black skinny tie. But then yeah,

13:29

you have like someone who has more

13:31

of a military-esque cap, then you have

13:33

somebody who has more of a police

13:35

officer style cap. Right. So

13:37

it seems like just a bunch

13:39

of different law enforcement from different

13:42

jurisdictions are here. Yeah. There's

13:44

a lot of blood on the tent. Yeah. Like

13:46

a lot, and it is torn up. Yep. You

13:49

can see two big vertical slashes,

13:52

one towards the front, one towards the

13:54

back, and some other tears. So

13:57

it's almost like, yeah, somebody came slashed from the outside.

13:59

Maybe that's it. that the knife that was used to

14:01

injure everybody either then scuffled

14:03

through the tent or pulled some people

14:05

out. It's really hard to say because

14:07

the crime scene, as

14:11

you'll come to know, was not

14:13

entirely clean. So now

14:15

as we enter the investigation phase, police

14:18

found that the first to discover the

14:20

scene was actually not Johansson, not the

14:22

man who came for a swim, but

14:24

instead, unfortunately, a group of

14:26

young boys who were birdwatching in the area around 6

14:28

a.m. Oh no.

14:31

Yeah. And they're birdwatching, you know

14:33

what I mean? They're just, come on, they're

14:36

so innocent, so pure. Yeah. So

14:38

they claimed that they saw someone at the

14:40

scene, you know, in retrospect, with long blonde

14:42

hair, and they were leaving behind a collapsed

14:44

tent in the area. They also indicated that

14:46

a fight had broken out in some form,

14:48

some sort of scuffle they knew, and they

14:50

didn't want to get involved, and so that's

14:52

where they moved on from the area, but

14:54

they weren't to know that anybody was to

14:56

be passed away or killed there. They

14:59

just knew they didn't want to get involved in a scuffle, and

15:01

so, you know, innocents aside,

15:03

they didn't really know anything else worse

15:05

had happened until later on. Now

15:08

regarding this man with the long blonde

15:10

hair, there are about 50 other eyewitnesses

15:12

around Lake Bodum that reported such a

15:14

man, this man with the long flowing

15:17

blonde hair. Now upon closer

15:19

analysis of the scene itself, some peculiar

15:21

items were missing. Of course, they're camping,

15:23

so they don't have all their personal

15:25

effects, but we do know a

15:27

few things were oddly missing, right? The keys to

15:29

their motorcycles had been stolen, but

15:31

the motorcycles themselves were still on site.

15:33

They hadn't been taken and driven away,

15:36

so seemingly untouched. So, I mean, like,

15:38

what's the mindset behind that? Is it

15:40

just in case they

15:42

didn't finish the job and then they didn't

15:44

want to give them the opportunity to get

15:47

to anybody fast? Yeah, it almost seems like

15:49

a way to strand them, like

15:51

to take the keys and, I don't

15:53

know, yoink them into the lake or take them

15:55

with you. I don't know. So yeah, maybe you

15:57

just leave them to die, you know? Yep. In

16:00

addition to that, their wallets seem to be

16:02

stolen. And I do want to say some

16:04

sources also claim that there was only one

16:06

motorcycle. Many claim that there was two or

16:09

multiple. But in addition to that, some of

16:11

the articles of clothing were taken, right? Including

16:13

Gustafsson's shoes, the guy who ended up being

16:15

the only survivor. I do have an image

16:17

of those shoes, if you want to look

16:19

at them, because they will come up later

16:22

on in the suspects arena of the investigation.

16:24

Basically look like two leather loafers with

16:26

a lot of yellow pushpins in them,

16:28

probably pointing to various DNA sample sites.

16:31

That's a lot of DNA and a

16:33

lot of red pushpins too. Maybe a

16:35

couple of green as well, a handful

16:37

of green. That's my colorblind coming through.

16:40

Ah. Yeah, no, you're right.

16:43

Majority is red, then a handful of

16:45

yellow and a very small amount of

16:47

green. And then this is also just

16:49

placed on a table with

16:51

a L-shaped measuring stick. Measure

16:54

height and width. Now, as I

16:56

indicated earlier, the scene wasn't fully clean,

16:58

right? It's unclear exactly what all may

17:01

or may not have been taken, because

17:03

unfortunately the police had not properly cordoned

17:05

off the crime scene. It

17:07

seems that news reporters, curious onlookers, et

17:09

cetera, maybe animals, had all visited and

17:12

lightly disrupt the crime scene, even

17:15

sometimes apparently trampling over potential evidence in

17:17

their curiosity for what happened that night.

17:19

Not to mention what may have happened

17:21

in the hours before police even became

17:23

aware of the crime, right? So if

17:25

this took place somewhere between four and

17:27

six a.m., crime happens

17:29

before Johansson even shows up,

17:31

who knows if other onlookers,

17:33

other passers-by, other ne'er-do-wells, animals

17:35

came through and disturbed the

17:37

scene. So, I mean, you're

17:39

out in nature, right? Yeah. So

17:41

it's just a mess because of not

17:43

only humans, but nature. Yeah.

17:47

Now, they began searching the area looking

17:49

for anything that was missing, the weapons,

17:51

perhaps, any other clues. And they do,

17:53

in fact, as you know now with

17:55

the photos, they found Gustafsson's shoes. They

17:58

were covered in blood about five- 500

18:00

meters or just over a quarter mile

18:02

away from the tent as if someone

18:04

had attempted to hide them. That

18:06

said, they did not find the

18:08

missing keys, the other articles of clothing, of

18:10

course the motorcycles were untouched, et cetera. Now,

18:13

despite many interviews with locals and other

18:15

campers, no suspects could be pinned

18:18

down for this particular crime. We do have

18:20

some now, we're gonna talk about them in

18:22

a second, but just at the time,

18:24

it just seemed like a ghost in the wind. Now,

18:27

after some rest, police began to talk with

18:29

Gustafson himself. Again, this is the survivor, and

18:31

he claimed he had no memory of the event,

18:34

which makes a lot of sense because he had

18:36

a lot of contusions to the head, concussion,

18:38

you can easily lose consciousness or

18:40

memories, a lot can happen with

18:42

the brain. But at one

18:45

point, he did undergo hypnosis and was

18:47

asked to describe the killer. In

18:49

this state of hypnosis, he remembered seeing

18:52

someone in black and bright red. He

18:54

described the killer's face and the attack

18:56

with what he thought was an iron

18:58

pipe. Interestingly, the police also continued to

19:01

talk to the young boys who were

19:03

birdwatching that night or that morning, and

19:06

the bird watcher who saw the blonde man

19:08

walking away was also put under hypnosis to

19:10

see if he could remember anything. And from

19:12

this, he actually had a description of the

19:15

face. So they took the description from the

19:17

bird watcher as well as Gustafson, and they

19:19

created a composite sketch based on these two

19:21

descriptions that I have for you. There's a

19:24

few different renderings of them, but they are

19:26

all kind of centering around the same face.

19:28

So let me know what you think about

19:30

this composite sketch. Before

19:33

we get to that, this is wild.

19:35

So is hypnosis that legit?

19:37

I'm glad you're saying it because we

19:39

gotta address it. Right? It's

19:41

not a locked in science. Yeah, or

19:44

is that just at the time it

19:46

was considered to be more

19:49

legit than it is nowadays? I'm

19:52

very curious. Christian, our guy in

19:54

the chair, producer extraordinaire. Do you

19:56

mind looking into that? See if

19:58

1960s Finland kind of was... more

20:00

interested in this kind of thing. I would say

20:02

my personal inclination, Fredo, is that

20:05

they were looking for any answers possible. And so

20:07

this might've been one of the final paths. Like

20:09

we've seen that in some cases of desperation, where

20:12

their only option left is to seek

20:14

a psychic or just whatever

20:16

possible. And so I can see this where

20:18

sometimes hypnosis puts you in a state of

20:20

mind where you have to allow yourself to

20:23

suspend the disbelief, right? And

20:25

fall into this trance, not

20:27

that it's just like in the movies where

20:29

you'll do whatever, but instead, it removes your

20:32

conscious thinking. So that way you can put

20:34

that out of the way and access maybe

20:36

some buried thoughts or memories. That's one school

20:38

of thought. The other is hypnosis

20:41

is nothing. It's pseudoscience and

20:43

he probably made up a description to

20:45

give some answer, right? Yeah,

20:47

because I was just like, we're putting

20:50

a lot of weight into

20:52

hypnosis here. Mm-hmm, yeah. And that's

20:54

just not something that I've heard

20:56

to be like accurate or used

20:58

in any sort of way. Right,

21:00

I mean, you and I in

21:03

a similar vein tried the Gansfield experiment.

21:05

Oh yes. Where we put ping pong

21:07

balls on our eyes, put red light

21:09

around and it's not

21:11

necessarily hypnosis, but it's similar of

21:13

that kind of ilk. And

21:16

you were trying to project an image to me so

21:18

I could pick it up out of the air. Yeah,

21:20

we didn't have those abilities. No, no,

21:23

our ex-genes lie elsewhere. Yeah. So

21:26

hypnosis can be used for

21:28

medical and

21:31

mental health issues. And

21:33

it's vetted by medicinal

21:36

clinics like the Mayo Clinic and the

21:38

Cleveland Clinic. And it's something used for

21:40

things like stress, anxiety, smoking,

21:43

but it can be used for

21:46

medical uses, treating like

21:48

asthma, menopausal hot

21:50

flashes, side effects of chemotherapy,

21:52

IBS. So it is a

21:55

surprisingly supported, I

21:57

guess, medical. of

22:00

treatment, but there's still, how do you say

22:02

it? Discourse around the validity of it, you

22:04

know, if it's similar to just kind of

22:07

the way placebos work.

22:09

Yeah, that's what it sounds like. Cause

22:12

placebo effect is the

22:14

absence of the medicine, but the full

22:16

belief that it's there. So there is

22:18

something to that. And so maybe hypnosis

22:21

is just placebo effect with a different

22:23

name on display. And I

22:25

don't know, but I'm curious if any of

22:27

this is admissible in court. Like when you

22:29

move from medicine to the legal realm. Exactly.

22:32

Looks like according to, I know we're talking

22:34

about a case in Finland, but according to

22:36

the US Department of Justice, hypnotically

22:38

induced testimony is generally permissible

22:41

in court. Interesting. As long

22:43

as the hypnosis affects only

22:45

the credibility of the witness

22:47

and not the witnesses quote

22:50

competence or the admissibility of

22:52

his or her testimony. Gotcha.

22:55

Okay. So you can say

22:57

this is the face I'm seeing under

23:00

hypnosis, but you can't say like that

23:02

person is unable to do this because

23:05

in this state of hypnosis, I just don't

23:07

believe that they're capable of X, Y or

23:09

Z. That's what I'm gathering. But it does

23:11

sound like a different source of saying that

23:13

out of court statements under hypnosis are not

23:16

admissible. So it looks like if you are

23:18

pursuing hypnosis, it needs to be done in

23:20

court. Whoa. Oh, like in front

23:22

of everyone? You gotta be hypnotized in front of

23:24

a jury and then you have your peers. Yeah.

23:27

What if I make a fool of myself and

23:29

they make me do a little dance? What

23:32

was it? The late night with the devil had

23:34

that. Yeah. Look, that's the way to do

23:36

it though. You gotta do it in front of people on

23:38

both sides and then a group of people that are supposed

23:40

to be unbiased. Yeah. I

23:43

think that's so fascinating. Again, I have

23:45

tried to be hypnotized before. I

23:48

was watching the documentary Office Space and

23:50

I thought it was fascinating how the

23:52

guy had the stress hypnotized out of

23:55

him and he becomes this really blase

23:57

character. But because of that, everything just

23:59

goes for him. It's like, why can't

24:01

I have that stress free? Everything just works

24:03

out. I mean, I feel like your brain

24:05

will get fractured, right? Because there's so much

24:07

to stress out about. True. That's

24:09

why you just do the really healthy

24:11

thing and bury it deep. Yeah, real,

24:13

real, real deep. Yeah, it

24:15

is real deep until it manifests as another

24:18

person. You know? Walking

24:21

the halls at night, talking under your breath and you

24:23

go, I don't remember that. Yeah, that's

24:25

the way to do it for sure.

24:27

Yeah. But

24:29

that's really interesting. I've always been very, very

24:31

fascinated by hypnosis. You know, I've done all

24:33

the summer camps and the grade schools where

24:35

they have people come by and they have

24:37

like mentalists that try to read your mind.

24:39

And every now and then I've come across

24:41

like a hypnosis person who will have a

24:43

group of people forget the number seven. So

24:45

where they're counting, they skip it, but they

24:47

don't know what they did wrong. So they're

24:50

counting on their hands and they get to

24:52

the ninth finger, but they're counting 10 and

24:54

they're like, wait, I don't have 11 fingers.

24:56

Stuff like that's always been really interesting to

24:58

me, but it definitely, I think,

25:00

takes a very firm sense of belief

25:02

in that. So I think the placebo

25:04

effect angle is strong. This

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27:33

So these are the composite sketches. You're taking a

27:35

look at those now. Very

27:37

curious on your thoughts, your initial reactions, but

27:39

this is what was made public. Though

27:42

despite this, despite this hitting the papers and

27:44

everything, the case went cold after

27:46

this due to the lack of evidence in any

27:48

further reports. You know, we had those

27:51

50 eyewitnesses that said I saw a man with long

27:53

blonde hair. That's about it. A lot of eyewitnesses. Look

27:56

at all these sketches. Bro, two

27:58

of these looking real goofy. The

28:00

top left one, the

28:02

proportions are very interesting. Huge

28:05

cheeks and super wide

28:08

jawline. Very large lips,

28:11

like he's got filler. And then the

28:13

nose is extremely tiny. Yeah, the face

28:15

is kind of squished, isn't it? Yeah,

28:17

the face is like squished

28:19

just on the mid sides. They come in. Like

28:21

this is a character I'd make in World of

28:24

Warcraft or something. Yeah, it seems like a character

28:26

creation. Like you mess with it a little bit.

28:28

Yeah, just a little. There's four

28:30

pictures, one in each corner. Top

28:33

right seems like a little bit more of

28:35

an accurate one. There, it makes

28:37

the first one look more character priced. Yeah.

28:40

And then the lower left, okay.

28:44

Yeah, and the lower right, what happened? It

28:47

was almost like cartoonish. Yeah, that's like

28:49

the biggest forehead and chin, but like

28:51

big eyes and lips, small nose, all

28:53

in a very tight. Yeah, very tight

28:55

and it's just like a lot of

28:57

exaggerated features. But, you

29:00

know, look, if

29:02

I saw this person, I'd be like, oh,

29:04

that's pretty close. Yeah, I mean, and that's

29:06

really interesting to kind of think about because

29:09

I will tease a little

29:11

bit. One of the

29:13

suspects we're gonna talk about does look

29:15

eerily similar to one of these sketches

29:18

or to all of them kind of. And

29:21

so that's where I'm very interested to talk

29:23

more about this case, because while there's not

29:25

a whole lot of evidence to go off

29:27

of, it's a pretty brutal scene. This case

29:29

really opens up over the years across

29:32

these three suspects that we're gonna talk about now.

29:35

So suspect one, Carl Waldemar

29:37

Yieldstrom. So Yieldstrom kept

29:39

a kiosk near Lake Bodom and was

29:41

known as the kiosk man. He's on

29:44

the list as he was suspected by

29:46

many locals as the one who murdered

29:48

the teens. He was known

29:50

to be very hostile and easily frustrated by campers,

29:52

especially children. It's one of those maybe

29:55

back in my day kind of older gentlemen's

29:57

that have very little patience, recpires

29:59

with his kids, said that he would throw

30:01

rocks at them and cut down campers

30:03

tent, something very similar to what seemed

30:05

to be at this scene, though obviously

30:07

not with the intent of murder, but

30:10

definitely with the intent of I'm an angry

30:12

person and I don't like kids. So he's

30:14

not doing favors for himself here. And

30:17

a few days after the murders, Yaelstrom

30:19

actually filled in the well on

30:21

his property. And so the rumor

30:24

mill began to unfold. They believe,

30:26

the locals believe that maybe

30:28

he's hiding evidence down there from the crime.

30:31

And by filling that in, he's kind

30:33

of just tucking it away. So no

30:35

one will ever know. It's weird that

30:37

you did that few days after the

30:39

case, right? Yeah, it's very suspicious. I'm

30:41

interested. We're not there yet, right? But

30:43

I'm interested to see if any type

30:45

of motive pops up because right now

30:48

mostly it's just like, I'm an old

30:50

grumpy person. Right. Anger issues, which

30:52

are not great. No, no, no, not great

30:54

at all. But like, is that motive for

30:57

killing? Yeah. In such a brutal way. So

31:00

as this suspect unfolds, it gets more

31:02

interesting, right? So supposedly to add to

31:05

all the local suspicion, one of Gilstrom's

31:07

neighbors claimed he drunkenly confessed to the

31:09

Lake Boda murders. We've seen this before

31:11

in the past. Doesn't always indicate truth,

31:13

but the police because he was drunk

31:16

did not think that this was a

31:18

serious confession and therefore didn't really

31:20

push forward with any sort of arrest

31:22

or anything. That said, Gilstrom is also

31:24

said to have had an alibi confirmed

31:26

by his wife. He was at home

31:28

asleep with her that night and therefore

31:31

could not have been there between the

31:33

hours of four and six a.m. Either

31:35

way, he later drowned in 1969, potentially

31:38

by suicide. So

31:40

no DNA comparisons could be made or

31:43

have been made. Reportedly now this suspect

31:45

really starts to get a little mind

31:47

warpy. Reportedly the friend

31:50

he confessed to that neighbor told

31:52

him this, quote, you should

31:54

drown yourself because you'll spend the rest of

31:56

your life in prison. And so now

31:59

you have to believe. Did he say that

32:01

in hindsight? Is he like, or is it true

32:03

that he confessed and said, well, if that's true,

32:05

you should go drown yourself because otherwise you're just

32:07

gonna be in jail for the rest of your

32:09

life. Now things get even more interesting after

32:12

his death. So he's passed away now. It's

32:14

been nine plus years. Gilsstrom's

32:16

wife actually comes forward. She recants her

32:19

earlier statement about the alibi. She claimed

32:21

that she lied about it, that he

32:23

wasn't actually home that night because she

32:26

was scared of her husband who threatened

32:28

to kill her if she told the

32:30

truth. What? I mean, right. If your

32:32

husband's this bad of a person, I'm

32:35

sure, you know, there's threatening and that's

32:38

crazy. Trying to avoid violence or

32:40

anything. And so in the

32:42

end, that's really all we have. And

32:44

so legally and technically all the evidence

32:46

against Carl is hearsay and with nothing

32:48

of note to be found at his

32:50

home because they did investigate, they did

32:52

look at his property. They found nothing

32:55

of note. He still remains only a

32:57

suspect and the rest is

32:59

just kind of like, that's wild. His

33:01

own wife is recanting the alibi, but

33:03

is that out of fear? Is

33:06

that out of regret? Is that out

33:08

of vengeance? We'll never know because it's

33:10

all hearsay. Is the neighbor being truthful?

33:12

Is he not? Clearly this guy was

33:14

not well liked, you know? Yeah.

33:17

And if it's a person that's just like not well

33:19

liked and at that point, you know, how

33:21

truthful is everybody really? Hmm. Oh.

33:24

So that's just suspect one. That,

33:29

I mean, there's, it's

33:32

still, it's still like angry

33:34

old person. You know what I mean?

33:37

Mm-hmm. At the end of the day.

33:39

Like, yeah, at the end of the day, it's angry

33:41

old person with a lot of like hearsay. And I

33:43

would even splice in a little bit of gossip. Little

33:45

bit of gossip. I don't know though.

33:47

It can always cross the line. Yes. A

33:50

little extra drink, a little extra anger, snap, go

33:52

too far. We've seen it happen. And

33:54

so it remains a compelling

33:57

suspect. But again, like you said, it

33:59

all stays. is hearsay, but

34:01

that leads us to another suspect,

34:04

Hans Asman. And yes,

34:06

that's how you say and spell the

34:08

name. All right, just checking. Yeah, Hans

34:10

Asman was a German man who lived

34:13

near Lake Bodum. He was

34:15

a reclusive, he was rumored by locals. Okay,

34:17

we got the local rumor mill back in

34:19

the play. He was rumored to be a

34:21

former KGB agent and even a former Nazi.

34:24

Now Jillian was looking into this because we were curious

34:26

if there was any, if this would hold any water.

34:29

And apparently the Nazi angle was actually true. He

34:31

was at least a Nazi we don't know about

34:34

the KGB agent part. Oh, wow. Yeah, I mean,

34:36

we're talking, you know, we're talking sixties, worst 1960.

34:39

Now he was suspected of other unrelated

34:41

murders by the police. So

34:43

some think that maybe he wasn't the

34:45

only killer in the Lake Bodum case,

34:47

that maybe he was simply involved but

34:49

he was one of two or what

34:51

have you. But either way,

34:54

the fact that the police think

34:56

that he's related to other murders

34:58

definitely puts them as a prime

35:00

suspect up front. Interesting. Mm-hmm. Now

35:02

the day, we talked about earlier

35:04

with Gilstrom and what happened in

35:06

the days following but this is

35:08

the immediate day after following the

35:10

murders. Asman checked into the hospital in

35:12

Helsinki with black dirt under his

35:14

nails and red stains all over

35:16

his clothes. Doctors claim that he

35:18

actually attempted to appear unconscious in order

35:20

to be seen by the doctors

35:22

before the other patients, kind of

35:24

dramatizing his conditions to get through

35:26

into the ER. Yeah,

35:29

because if it's a more severe

35:31

injury or something like that, yeah, you

35:33

get pushed to the front of the line. Mm-hmm. So the doctors

35:35

were kind of seeing through his charade. So

35:37

they knew he was kind of pretending a little

35:39

bit but either way, eventually they do see him.

35:42

And apparently he was very aggressive with the staff

35:45

and doctors began to believe that the stains on

35:47

his clothes were in fact blood but

35:49

these clothes were not taken by the

35:51

police for further testing, which is kind

35:53

of strange. If you have medical professionals

35:55

saying, I think that's blood and he

35:57

might be a suspect, that's kind of

35:59

weird. but we will get to that.

36:02

Okay. What's interesting too, is that

36:04

Aspen actually did have long blonde hair. And

36:06

when the bird watching boys story made the

36:08

news and went public, that was the day

36:10

or very soon after that he cut it

36:12

all off. And this is where I have

36:14

another interesting photo for you. So

36:17

you remember the composite drawings, we were talking

36:19

about those. Now open up the next photo

36:21

I have for you and compare this photograph

36:24

to the composite sketches. Okay. Especially

36:26

the top right and the bottom left.

36:28

I mean, it's close. Got

36:30

the large forehead, the hair's

36:32

comb back. You got the

36:35

very distinct wrinkle line. You

36:38

see that slightly crooked nose.

36:40

Yep. Strong cheekbones. Bigger eyes.

36:43

The strong chin. Yeah. I

36:45

mean, this, this is very close.

36:47

Yeah. And so, so far,

36:49

you know, a few things are lining

36:52

up, not evidentially, right? Not with evidence.

36:54

Right. But definitely enough is clicking into

36:56

place for this suspect to be very

36:58

interesting. Now we also have another photo

37:00

for you. In this photo, go ahead

37:02

and open it up and take a

37:04

look. Task force is always on social

37:06

and on YouTube. Like I said, in

37:09

this photo, there is another person. There's this

37:11

person circled in the middle. This is a

37:14

man that resembles both Aspen, but

37:17

also the composite sketches. And this is

37:19

at the scene of one of the

37:21

victims funerals. Oh. And

37:23

so many people are wondering, is this

37:26

the person that the sketches are for?

37:28

Or is this actually Aspen at the

37:30

funerals kind of overseeing the aftermath or

37:32

maybe trying to look innocent? We don't

37:34

know if this is him or somebody

37:36

else, but it's interesting. I mean, this

37:38

can go any of those

37:40

directions, but it's also another person that's

37:42

very similar to the sketches. Mm-hmm. Honestly,

37:44

kind of lines up, because it kind

37:46

of lines up closer to the sketches.

37:49

I would say so as well. But

37:51

it's just, you know, it could be

37:53

angles in play. Yeah. And

37:55

he's like, he's not targeting him at it like

37:57

a, he's not looking directly on. looking

38:00

off to the side at an angle. Yeah.

38:02

Yeah, his features do seem a little bit more

38:05

exaggerated, not as cleaned up as the previous photo.

38:08

So it does line up more with the

38:10

sketch. I can see that really strong jaw

38:12

muscle, right? At the bottom of his jaw,

38:14

kind of sticking out, like somebody that clenches

38:16

the jaw and it flexes that. Yes. Very

38:19

Brad Pitt, you know? Oh yeah. But also with

38:22

the big dark kind of set in

38:24

eyes and the eyes,

38:26

nose, mouth being kind of squished

38:29

vertically together, like the sketches. Like

38:31

I think you're right. This feels a lot

38:33

closer to that bottom left sketch,

38:36

even more so than the early photo,

38:38

but it could still be both, could

38:40

be another person. It's either way, it's

38:42

greatly of interest to me. Yeah. So

38:45

of course the police began looking closer. And

38:47

as he was investigated by police, he

38:50

had an alibi. He was seen visiting

38:52

his girlfriend's apartment that night of the

38:54

murders, but what stands out to

38:56

me, and I'm curious on your thoughts, like, yes,

38:58

he was seen by someone that night. That

39:01

doesn't mean you can't wake up in the

39:03

wee hours and go do something, you know?

39:05

Yeah, exactly. You could wake up, go for

39:07

a late night snack or whatnot. It's not

39:09

necessarily the worst thing. Yeah. And

39:11

the dirt under the nails, the blood, the

39:13

potential, right, the doctors are saying it's, I

39:16

think it's blood. So the potential blood on

39:18

the clothes indicates a scuffle. And that was

39:20

that next day. And so I'm like, why

39:22

aren't we talking to this girlfriend? Where's she

39:24

at? What's she got to say? Where's she

39:27

covering it up? Could be. Oh

39:30

man, it's just, it's

39:33

just every, it's a lot of episodes. I

39:35

know. We're just so interesting. We

39:37

just go, it's just so shy.

39:39

Yeah, right. So, some closer to

39:41

the line than others, but just

39:43

so shy of like giving you

39:46

just what you need, you know? Yeah, it's

39:48

one of those edging cases. It's just like,

39:51

you feel like you're just about to resolve

39:53

it. Right. And you just don't. Or if

39:55

someone like just said something

39:58

during this moment or that moment. Mm-hmm. You

40:00

know, it's easy to look back and go like man if

40:02

only this right but yep. Yeah it is This

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90 Is

41:37

that still a timely reference? I don't know.

41:39

Anyway back to the show Now

41:44

there's a huge conspiratorial wrinkle

41:46

on this particular suspect that

41:49

Only makes it more compelling. Okay, so

41:51

and this comes from the doctor that

41:53

treated him, right? Remember he goes the

41:55

er sees a doctor. He's mean they

41:57

see blood etc etc. The

41:59

doctors don't investigate the bloody clothes. They

42:01

don't seem to look further into that

42:04

alibi. Now the doctor themselves who treated

42:06

Aspen theorized that he was actually for

42:08

sure the KGB agent that the town

42:10

thought he was and that perhaps the

42:13

police are covering up his crimes in

42:15

order to prevent foreign policy issues. That

42:17

we don't want to implicate this person

42:20

who might be an agent because we

42:22

don't want to scale up into an

42:24

international scuffle that this could go way

42:26

out of hand very quickly. Uhhhh.

42:29

And I'm like, oh my

42:32

God, that's wild. It seems

42:34

so unfair to family too.

42:36

Very, very unfair. But

42:39

these are heated times. I'm not saying

42:41

that this is right, but I'm like,

42:43

I can see it being an angle.

42:46

I could see that being possible. Damn.

42:48

But that's how the doctors felt. The ones

42:50

who were saying, this guy had someone else's

42:53

blood on him, man. Interesting. Yeah. The

42:55

thing is I do see like the government going, look,

42:57

we got to think of the bigger picture here because

43:00

oral lives could be at stake type of

43:02

situation, but it's just so unfair to the

43:05

families. Yeah, it's that, and maybe I'm wrong

43:07

here, but the idea of the

43:09

greater evil, right? So that is

43:12

our second suspect, but it leads us

43:14

to the third. And

43:16

I sometimes I just sit here before I dive

43:18

into it because I'm just like, I'm so eager

43:20

to hear what you want to say. I can

43:22

feel the tension rise, but let's just do it.

43:25

Niels Gustafsson himself, the

43:28

survivor is now a

43:30

suspect. And I'm gonna

43:32

just rip the bandaid off. He has

43:34

been arrested and since acquitted in this

43:36

whole thing. So let's talk about

43:38

it. Okay. In April 2004, 40 years after the

43:40

lake vote of murders, Niels

43:44

Gustafsson, the sole survivor, was

43:46

arrested and suspected of being the killer.

43:49

DNA tests, of course, were not available at the time

43:51

of the murders. We talked about this in many true

43:54

crime cases, but police were able to

43:56

run some DNA analysis in 2004. The

44:00

test showed evidence of every victim's

44:02

blood on Gustafson's shoes. Again,

44:04

you were pointing out the yellow, green, and

44:07

red pins. Those could be saying, hey, this

44:09

is blood sample A, B, C, et cetera.

44:11

We don't know exactly, but that's what that

44:13

could be. It's definitely pointing to some stains.

44:16

There was no other DNA present

44:19

on the shoes beside the four

44:21

victims, which led actually directly to

44:23

Gustafson's arrest. Basically saying that

44:25

if he was one of four victims and there

44:28

was somebody kind of committing these crimes, why aren't

44:30

we finding any other DNA here? Of

44:32

course, that doesn't mean that the attacker is

44:34

also bleeding, right? And we'll talk about that.

44:36

But I'm just saying, this is what happened.

44:38

It led to his arrest. After

44:41

his arrest, a new witness came forward

44:43

and claimed that both Gustafson and

44:45

Boismund, the two 18-year-old boys, young

44:48

men, had visited her tent that

44:51

night, though she argued that Gustafson

44:53

was also a victim. We don't have much

44:55

to go off of here. We don't know

44:57

exactly what happened that night, but she came

44:59

forward after his arrest and said, hey, they

45:01

visited in the night. I have reason to

45:03

believe that he's actually a victim,

45:05

not the criminal here. What? That doesn't

45:07

mean you can retaliate like that? Basically

45:09

saying that he was also attacked. That's

45:12

a fifth person. Some other entity was

45:14

the murderer. That he was just a

45:16

victim, not somebody that retaliated. Oh.

45:19

Yeah. We don't know much else about

45:21

her claims. But then why has nothing

45:23

else been reported? Right. Like

45:25

where were you in the early... And maybe, you

45:28

know, maybe she didn't want to step up in

45:30

the early days and implicate herself, right? And say,

45:32

hey, they came to our tent, and now you're

45:34

suddenly a person of interest. But

45:36

man, does it get frustrating when decades later,

45:39

people come out of the woodwork with new

45:41

information. Yeah. And that's like a big amount

45:43

of information. There was somebody else there and...

45:46

Or nearby. Or nearby, I guess.

45:48

And then to be,

45:51

I don't know, to switch it from being

45:53

like, oh, I'm kind of like the suspect

45:55

to like a victim. Victim. Yeah,

45:57

yeah, yeah. I think it was him because him and his...

46:00

came and visited our tent in the middle of

46:02

the night and I thought he was a nice

46:04

boy. Yeah. But also, what's going

46:07

on with that? Where was all this? There's

46:09

nowhere, nowhere at all. So they've been up

46:11

in the middle of the night. We at

46:13

least know that. And that kind of plays

46:15

into what the prosecutor's story of

46:17

the night might've been. So jumping forward a

46:20

year, in 2005, this all went to trial.

46:23

And the prosecutors, based on everything they could

46:25

possibly know, tried to pull together a story

46:27

of what might have gone down that night.

46:29

They claimed that Gustafson got into a fight

46:31

with Boismund. Perhaps when they were awake, doing

46:33

what have you, they got into a

46:35

fight, which then turned into a physical

46:37

scuffle, which is how he, Gustafson, got

46:39

his injuries to his face. The

46:42

broken jaw, the facial bones, et cetera.

46:45

Now supposedly, per this story, Gustafson

46:47

lost and was exiled from

46:49

the tent, forced to leave. And

46:51

maybe this is when he, again, I'm pulling

46:53

threads together. Maybe this is when he stole

46:56

this other woman camping nearby. Either way, the

46:58

story continues per the prosecutors that he

47:00

then returned later that night and

47:03

killed everybody out of jealousy, out

47:05

of anger, whatever have you. Now,

47:08

Bjorklund, Gustafson's girlfriend, suffered the most injuries.

47:10

And she was also outside of the

47:13

tent on top of it like he

47:15

was. And so many people seem to

47:17

indicate that this might've been evidence

47:19

of a crime of passion or

47:21

maybe a response to being rejected

47:23

sexually or whatever invalid reason

47:26

there is, this might've been why

47:28

he carried out the crime, right?

47:30

Yeah, I mean, the pants was

47:32

missing, right? Mm-hmm. It's

47:35

a theory that lines up. It's pulling

47:37

together what little we know, you know? But

47:40

it's trying to attach itself. Yeah,

47:42

now, much like the movie Scream,

47:44

the prosecutors then claimed that he

47:46

then turned on himself, stabbing

47:48

himself, injuring himself further in order

47:50

to make himself feel and appear

47:52

like he was also a victim.

47:54

That'd be pretty brutal. And

47:56

this is when the defense stepped in and they claimed that

47:59

he was too injured to. do a few things.

48:01

One, to kill anybody else. Two,

48:03

to turn and hurt himself. In fact, they

48:05

said that his injuries did not appear to

48:07

be self-inflicted. And then on top of that,

48:09

I kind of want to talk about the

48:12

idea of the shoes. Because if

48:15

it was him, then it means

48:17

that he knew to specifically hide

48:19

his shoes and somebody in

48:21

such a state they were claiming it

48:23

would be a hard ask to ask

48:25

somebody who's mostly concussed to walk a

48:27

quarter plus mile away, try to hide

48:29

the shoes, walk a quarter plus mile

48:31

back, and try to make it look

48:33

convincing that they were also just a

48:35

victim. And then on top of all

48:37

this, what makes it more complicated is

48:40

the fact that Gustafsson himself was arguing that

48:42

he may have experienced amnesia as a

48:44

result of the blows to the head. He wasn't sure.

48:46

He's like, I don't know if I forgot. I don't

48:49

know what I don't know. But it

48:51

does make sense either way that if he's getting

48:53

struck in the head, there's going

48:55

to be some level of amnesia in

48:57

play. I've been concussed

48:59

and walked off the rugby pitch before.

49:01

Yeah. Without being unconscious, I was walked

49:04

over and then I just kind of

49:06

came to on the sidelines. And

49:08

so like, there are varying levels

49:10

of concussion. Is it like a scream

49:13

type of situation here? You know what

49:15

I mean? Where they just injured themselves

49:17

severely? But I don't know. It

49:19

takes a certain kind of person to do that, especially to such

49:22

great length. Right. And I

49:24

wish without knowing more about

49:26

these individuals and what either they're

49:29

capable of, what their kind of

49:31

disposition is, it's really hard to

49:33

say, especially now that this went

49:35

to trial, you're going to have

49:37

the polar opposite angles on both

49:40

sides. And both seemingly make

49:42

sense. Both are kind of pulling clues

49:44

together that are not hard evidence, you

49:46

know? And so they're almost just trying

49:48

to plant doubt in the jury's mind.

49:50

And so that's the kind of realm

49:52

we're in where we're just building a

49:54

case, building a story to either help

49:56

or hurt this individual or acquit or

49:59

imitate. Yeah, it seems

50:01

like both ends are kind of grasping

50:03

at straws and just trying to see

50:05

what kind of jury they're working with

50:07

here to be able to convict

50:09

or not convict. Yeah, I agree. It is

50:11

interesting coming back to the shoes for a

50:13

little bit because some do see the DNA

50:15

on the shoes as evidence for him being

50:17

the killer. Despite the fact that

50:19

as you indicated, right, when you looked at the

50:21

tent, there's blood on the side of the tent.

50:23

The tent was actually brought to trial. There are

50:25

photos of how the tent appeared in trial. It

50:28

looks a little bit cleaner unless we're seeing the

50:30

other side of the tent. But you can see

50:32

just how torn apart it is. There's a lot

50:34

of stains on it, so to speak. And so

50:36

I'm personally hard pressed to go like, oh, there's

50:38

stains on his shoes. Therefore it must be him.

50:41

But I think what's going on here is that people

50:43

are thinking he put his shoes on when walking away

50:46

or coming back or what have you, whereas the others

50:48

are sleeping so they don't have their shoes on. And

50:50

so the fact that his shoes are all covered in

50:52

blood, I don't know that maybe he was the one

50:54

that did it, that no one else was there and

50:57

that the fight between him and the other guy would

50:59

have been the cause for all the DNA sources to

51:01

end up on the shoes. But I don't know. Like,

51:03

I don't know if that's just not clicking in my

51:05

head. I'm really curious on your thoughts on that, though.

51:07

I mean, like, is that enough to arrest somebody? I

51:10

don't know. I don't know.

51:12

But I mean, like, man, talk about

51:14

bad timing. You know what I mean?

51:16

Very. Yeah. Just I got into

51:18

a scuff and that's why there's blood on my shoes. Like,

51:20

oh, man. I'm just saying,

51:23

like, it's totally possible from my understanding of

51:25

this case that even if the shoes are

51:27

I mean, the fact that the shoes removed

51:29

from the scene is that someone's paying attention

51:31

to that. So that is interesting. And

51:33

who better to pay attention to than him if he is

51:35

the guy that did it. But in

51:38

this scene, if this attack is as violent

51:40

as it sounds, why I guess

51:42

why wouldn't blood end up in places

51:44

like this? It would end up everywhere,

51:46

right? Especially if we're thinking it was

51:48

a rock. Yeah. Yeah.

51:50

No, it's the fact that the

51:53

shoes specifically are tucked away and hidden. That's just

51:55

I think that's just weird. Yeah. And

51:57

so I don't think to me it confirms in

51:59

my mind. It's not clicking things into place. and

52:01

being like definitely him, but it is definitely suspicious.

52:03

Yeah. I would hate to be

52:05

the jury in this case because I just

52:08

feel like I've been the jury once. What? Yeah.

52:10

I've been a part of the jury once. It's

52:12

very fascinating. And I saw

52:15

the defendant came out, said all these

52:18

things. I was like, oh, okay. No,

52:20

that makes sense. All that evidence ends

52:22

up. And then the prosecutor came out

52:24

with their side and all that evidence.

52:26

And I went, oh, okay, hold on

52:28

now. That's very convincing. Possibly

52:30

even more convincing. And so it's just like, I just

52:32

feel like this is the same kind of case in

52:35

the sense of it just

52:37

really depends on what little pieces would

52:39

resonate with you as a juror. Right.

52:41

And that's what makes it tough, is

52:43

listening to two talented lawyers

52:46

spin their angle, because

52:49

there's going to be a little bias in play

52:51

because they have a job to do. But either

52:54

way, there are some wrinkles that people have considered

52:57

regarding the shoes. Right. It is suspicious. It

52:59

does stand out. The fact that all their

53:01

blood's on it and they were trekked away

53:03

and hidden doesn't look great for him.

53:05

It is starting to settle in my mind in that

53:07

sense. But some people have also said, maybe the killer

53:09

put on his shoes and then walked away. And then

53:12

when he was far enough from the site, took them

53:14

off, put their own shoes on because they didn't want

53:16

to leave their own footprints or they didn't want to

53:18

get their own shoes dirty and evident. There's a lot

53:20

of premeditation into that, but we

53:22

don't have any other evidence to go off

53:24

of. So, you know, I don't know. But

53:26

I mean, also, I mean, you're camping stuff just

53:29

lying around like shoes. True. Man.

53:31

And so maybe he looks down and he's like,

53:33

my shoes got all bloody. Got to get these

53:35

out of here. Right. Most likely right outside the

53:37

tent. Now, yeah. Okay. It's starting to click slowly

53:39

because like if somebody else, a fifth person, a

53:41

stranger came through and did this, you know, let's

53:43

talk about Assman. He comes through and he sees

53:45

like, oh, it looks like my victim's shoes are

53:47

bloody. Oh, well, you know, like,

53:50

yeah, unless they also bled and thought they

53:52

bled onto those, you know, anyway,

53:54

I could talk myself into a knot. I know. I know.

53:56

I can go back and forth. The

53:59

point is. Gustavsson went to trial and

54:01

he was acquitted of murder, but many

54:03

still suspect him. And I think that

54:05

this is why the case will forever

54:08

remain unsolved because one suspect

54:10

sounds, it's all hearsay, but they've passed

54:12

away, so we'll never know. One

54:15

suspect has government conspiracies, potentially

54:17

protecting their innocence or guilt.

54:19

And then the third is

54:22

part of the crime itself has

54:24

some eyebrow raising elements to it, but

54:26

none of it is enough to lock

54:28

it in. And so it's, again, it's

54:31

just one of those crimes that will,

54:33

I think forever plague our minds as

54:35

deeply morbidly fascinating, but we just can't

54:37

know. Yeah, there's just not

54:39

enough to push these

54:41

different theories over the line. Yeah.

54:45

Golly. I know. What

54:47

a case though. I know. It pulls you

54:49

in a lot of different directions. Yeah. So

54:52

one of those is it pulls you to one person, but not

54:54

enough, but then pulls you to another person, also

54:57

not enough. Yeah. I hope

54:59

I never end up in a

55:01

jury, you know? Cause like, I'll be like,

55:03

wow, both made great cases. Can I stay

55:05

neutral? Where's the, where's the beige vote here?

55:07

But is it, was yours one of those

55:10

cases where they're like, we need a unanimous

55:12

thing, or was it one of those lighter

55:14

cases where it's like small claims court where

55:16

they're like, my roommate stole my Cheetos. I

55:19

saw the orange fingers. It had to be

55:21

unanimous. And the unfortunate part was there were

55:23

people that were just like not willing to

55:25

put in the time to really think about

55:28

it, which is like terrifying. Oh

55:30

my God. Very. Like they just want to be like, I just

55:32

want to get on with my life. Yep. And

55:34

so they're like, let's just say this. Yep. I

55:36

mean, they like said things to like literally that

55:38

extent. And I'm just like, uh,

55:41

guys. There are people's futures

55:44

on the line here. I was like early

55:46

twenties, you know, and it's just a room

55:48

full of people just kind of like, okay.

55:50

So, you know, this

55:52

is kind of what we're thinking. Yeah, we're good with

55:54

this. And I was like, whoa, whoa, we're not going

55:56

to take time on this. That

55:58

was a little wild. That's that. That is wild. But

56:01

that has been the case of the Lake Boda

56:03

murders. A fascinating one

56:06

deep in the heart of Finland. Like

56:08

we're getting all over the world now. We're kind

56:10

of putting a pin in every country. We did

56:13

Belgium recently, but yeah, very eerie

56:15

case. And it should spike

56:17

your fear about going camping out there because you

56:19

never know what's going on. That's what I'm saying.

56:21

You never know what was standing right outside 20

56:24

yards away looking at you. Right. Oh

56:26

my God. And this reminds me of just a

56:28

bear videos like, oh, they look cute. They look like a little

56:30

dog or like a big dog, but the

56:33

way they like kind of stalk you is

56:35

like too friendly until they just aren't. Yeah.

56:37

Nature is gnarly. Well,

56:40

that said task force, thank you all so much

56:42

for coming. Listening to Red Web once again, we

56:44

greatly appreciate you. And if you want to support

56:46

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way. It goes a long way. It boosts us

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to get us into the list as we've been

56:59

making some lists on Spotify. Thanks to you guys.

57:01

And thanks to our friends over at Spotify,

57:04

but also just sharing it word of mouth

57:06

is absolutely huge. It is the greatest compliment

57:08

when you share us with the other family

57:10

and friends of your lives who

57:13

also love mysteries. Also want to explore

57:15

the dark underbelly of this world and

57:17

what could be and what is and

57:19

what if and all of that. But

57:21

otherwise, yeah, we've got merch, store.redwebpod.com. We've

57:24

got a couple of cheeky Halloween things coming in the

57:26

near future. And of

57:28

course, patreon.com/redweb. Fredo,

57:30

any last thoughts? Thank you guys. Again, as

57:32

always cannot stress enough the love and support.

57:35

That's why we get to keep doing this.

57:37

So from the bottom of our hearts, thank

57:39

you. Thank you guys. All right,

57:41

Fredo. I'll see you right back here next week

57:44

on the eaves of October for

57:46

a spooky mystery.