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1:10

In 1981, a brutal murder shocked

1:12

a small Connecticut town, but the

1:15

defense that followed was unlike anything

1:17

seen in a courtroom before, at

1:19

least in the United States. A

1:21

man claimed he was not responsible

1:23

for the killing because he was possessed,

1:25

and the devil made him do

1:27

it. Today, we discuss the chilling trial

1:30

of Arnie Cheyenne Johnson. This

1:32

is Red Web. Welcome

1:41

back Task Force to another

1:43

episode of Red Web, the podcast

1:45

all about unsolved mysteries, true

1:48

crime, and of course, the supernatural.

1:50

I'm your resident mystery enthusiast, Trevor

1:52

Collins, and joining me, hearing this

1:55

case potentially for the first time, Alfredo

1:57

Diaz. Hello, hello, hello. That's

2:00

unfortunate because I

2:02

feel like this is a case of

2:04

mental illness, you know, in a sense.

2:07

Very possible. That's kind of like my

2:09

initial gut check feeling here. And

2:11

I'm very curious

2:13

to see what

2:15

evidence the defense

2:17

has in terms

2:19

of this whole

2:21

possession kind of situation

2:23

that they're bringing to the judge

2:25

and to the court. Oh, yeah. How

2:28

do you prove? Like, how do you prove

2:30

that? You know, maybe a couple blood samples, and

2:32

then you look under the slot and you're

2:34

like, among the red blood cells, you see a

2:36

couple of ghouls. You never know. Ghouls

2:38

in the blood cells. You

2:40

know? Little blood ghouls. You don't know how

2:42

these demons work. That's true. I don't know.

2:44

I have no idea. I cannot science. scientist.

2:47

Yeah, we are not scientists. And

2:49

honestly, there are a handful of you that are

2:51

in the task force. Most of you aren't, so

2:53

neither can you. Buff rippling minds. And I don't

2:55

know if you guys can figure it out either.

2:57

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? The

2:59

demons work in mysterious ways. Now, the

3:01

reason why I say you might have been

3:03

aware of this case, usually you're reacting

3:05

to these cases as I unfold them. But

3:07

of course, we are back in the

3:09

midst of the Conjuring universe. The Warrens

3:11

are part of this story. And so

3:13

I'm sure you've seen the Conjuring, the

3:15

devil made me do it. You might

3:18

have seen the Netflix documentary about this

3:20

case. Yeah, it's not the latest move,

3:22

the last movie that they released 2021.

3:25

Yeah, I don't I don't know. What their

3:27

filmography? I mean, they've got a whole

3:29

portfolio now. I don't know what their latest one

3:31

was. They got one coming out this year. They

3:33

do have one coming out this year. The Conjuring

3:35

Last Rights. I think that what made me do

3:37

it was the last one to come out as

3:39

of this recording. But yeah, no, it's it's interesting.

3:41

That makes sense now. I was like, that sounds

3:44

so familiar. That's right. Yeah. Like literally

3:46

the title of the movie. Yeah, this is a

3:48

very interesting case. We'll talk a little bit

3:50

about their defense. As I teased, it

3:52

is the first time that this was used in

3:54

the United States, which is what brings a

3:56

lot of attention to this particular case, but they

3:58

do reference a case

4:00

over in England. We'll talk about that one

4:02

as well. We'll talk about how the judge

4:05

approached it. We'll talk about the history of

4:07

this family and everything around it. And I

4:09

think, you know, I have a takeaway at

4:11

the end, my own personal theory that ties

4:13

a lot of it together. But of course,

4:15

we'll go through the history of this possession.

4:17

We'll move into the crime. We'll talk about

4:19

the trial. And then the theories are kind

4:21

of between two things. Is this a true

4:23

case of possession? Are these false claims

4:25

of possession? What might be going on here?

4:28

Lots to dissect. But

4:30

before we dive in, lots to talk about in the Red

4:32

Web universe. Of course, we're here in

4:34

the midst of February. That means

4:36

it is the season of love.

4:38

So we are showering you guys

4:40

at redwebpod.com, our Patreon, with a

4:43

bunch of extra content as always.

4:45

You know we've got the movie

4:47

clubs queued up, Fredo. That's the

4:49

show that you host that bonus

4:51

exclusive podcast over there. Yes, we

4:53

do. We talk about movies. We

4:55

just talked about the time to

4:57

movie. TTM is so fast on this

4:59

podcast. We have a split extra

5:01

thing where we talk about movies.

5:04

We watch the movie, we break

5:06

it down, we give our opinions,

5:08

and we do all kinds of

5:10

movies from classics like the exorcist

5:12

to some movies that we're just

5:14

diehard fans of. Like saw or

5:16

ones that are relevant. We did

5:18

found destination somewhat recently and the

5:20

trailer found destination bloodlines just dropped

5:22

and But we you know you

5:24

want to talk about the movie

5:26

you want the breakdown of the

5:28

movie That's your place to do it. You know,

5:30

if we're getting into the bloodlines, maybe we'll figure out

5:32

if there are ghouls in the blood. It's true.

5:34

There's a lot of blood right now. A lot of

5:36

talk about the blood. Yeah. And we

5:38

do have an exponentially decreasing TTM. It's almost

5:40

insted at this point. I maybe maybe the

5:42

first word I say should just be

5:44

a movie title of some kind. Right. But

5:47

also coming out this month, actually two days

5:49

after the release of this podcast, we have a

5:51

fun bonus video exclusively for you guys over

5:53

on our Patreon page as well. It's kind of

5:55

like a dating game for cryptids. So it's

5:57

a lot of fun where we just explore

5:59

cryptid lore while also kind of having one

6:01

of us guess who the other

6:04

cryptids are through fun and funny questions. But

6:06

then I want to set up March Madness

6:08

right around the corner. Now we're not a

6:10

sports podcast, so we're going to do a

6:12

little tweak on it. It's either gonna

6:14

be like a monster madness or a mystery

6:16

madness and that's happening over at redwebpod.com.

6:18

This will be accessible to everyone for free

6:21

so you can all engage with your

6:23

favorite mysteries, vote on them, fight it out

6:25

in the comments. What mysteries, what monsters

6:27

do you think were the best? We're gonna

6:29

give like a handful, like a bunch

6:31

of mysteries and topics we've covered before and

6:33

you guys will kind of do a

6:35

whole bracket. And then to support the people

6:38

who support us back, we're going to

6:40

do exclusive video recaps, kind of going over

6:42

those results week by week, covering some of

6:44

our favorite comments of you guys, kind

6:46

of talking about the themes, talking about

6:48

the mystery topics and things like that.

6:50

So yeah, that's what's happening in March.

6:53

And while we're talking about them, Task

6:55

Force members, lots to shout out. We

6:57

have Austin, who is a very recent

6:59

gifted membership. That's right. You can

7:01

gift a membership to any of

7:04

your friends and loved ones in your

7:06

life. redwebpod.com slash gift. I believe

7:08

it's it's on the Patreon page. You

7:10

can see it there. Elite member,

7:12

Me Tapio, Buff Scientist Russ, and

7:14

of course, our illustrious

7:16

squonks every month, Azrael, Gavin

7:18

Day, Zachary Orr, Heather Stahlcup,

7:20

and then a special shout out

7:23

to Jay Dillon 628 for suggesting

7:25

this topic. So with that, Jay

7:27

Dillon, we're going to dive in. 20

7:29

-year -old Arnie Cheyenne Johnson and his

7:31

26 -year -old fiance Debbie Glatzel lived

7:34

in a small town known as

7:36

Brookfield, Connecticut. So Brookfield is about

7:38

55 miles or 88 kilometers northeast

7:40

of New York City, just to

7:42

give you a little spot on

7:44

the map from a known destination.

7:47

And it is just outside the somewhat

7:49

larger town of Danbury. They both were

7:51

living together at Debbie's family home, though

7:53

they had begun looking to move out

7:55

on their own, getting their own place.

7:58

In 1980, Debbie and Johnson had

8:00

actually found a house to rent

8:02

in Newtown, Connecticut, just another town outside

8:04

of Danbury. On July 3rd, 1980,

8:06

the Glatzels were actually helping the

8:08

couple move into their new place. And

8:10

this seems to be... the turning

8:12

point where all of this story started

8:14

to kick off. While there at

8:17

the new house, David, the younger brother

8:19

to Debbie, who was about 11

8:21

years old, said that he felt strange.

8:23

And when alone in one of

8:25

the bedrooms, he claimed he was pushed

8:27

down by a devilish figure with

8:29

completely black eyes. This demonic

8:31

entity told David, quote, beware.

8:35

He then ran out of the house and later

8:37

told his family that whatever this figure was,

8:39

it, quote, wanted his soul.

8:41

And quote following this incident

8:43

David would often wake up

8:46

screaming and crying at night and

8:48

it seemed as if his

8:50

nightmares were only getting worse so

8:52

this inciting moment in Debbie

8:54

and Cheyenne's new house became again

8:56

a turning point for David

8:58

where now it seemed a possession

9:00

began in some way somehow

9:02

and was taking hold getting worse

9:04

and worse by the day I

9:06

will say as of right

9:09

now. It seems like it's a

9:11

stable person and that, like,

9:13

they're, like, truly experiencing something,

9:15

you know? Because usually it's like,

9:17

okay, well, you know, maybe

9:19

they showed some symptoms or there's

9:21

a history or whatever. This

9:23

seems like, hey, just a normal

9:25

couple and then he's even

9:27

like, I don't know, I don't think it's like, as

9:30

of right now, that he's mentally, like,

9:32

setting down the foundation for this

9:34

grand lie, you know? Sure, sure. I

9:36

mean... only thing we really know

9:38

at this point, and I think you're

9:41

right, there isn't some history here

9:43

of acting out. You know, we do

9:45

have an 11 year old boy, his

9:47

older sister, who's 26, is moving

9:49

out with her fiance. And

9:51

so there's a change in the life. And

9:54

I'm kind of forecasting one of my theories

9:56

here. But that's really all we're dealing with.

9:58

I think you're right that it doesn't seem

10:00

so far that there's any

10:02

sort of acting out happening, right?

10:04

Yeah. Now, according to their interviews in

10:06

the Netflix documentary called Devil on Trial,

10:08

the family claimed that one night after

10:10

David woke up screaming, he's coming for

10:12

me, the entire house began to shake.

10:15

And David actually said when talking about

10:17

this shaking house, it was as if

10:19

someone drove a truck into the side

10:21

of the house. He actually said,

10:23

quote, like someone had drove a truck

10:25

into it, end quote. His brother,

10:27

Alan, just another brother of Debbie's

10:29

described it as interestingly as if a

10:31

large UFO had landed on the

10:33

house. They then claimed that the

10:35

lights began to flash and objects were breaking

10:37

in this rustling, almost as if the

10:40

walls were shaking so much that things were

10:42

falling over and breaking. It's very dramatic.

10:44

Right. Vision here. We are also getting multiple

10:46

people like experiencing something together. Right. Absolutely.

10:48

So already this, this is like this case

10:50

is telling me for a loop. I

10:52

mean, I saw the movie and I don't

10:55

know how like true that was to

10:57

the case, but I saw it and I

10:59

had don't remember at all. It was

11:01

not a good movie. But

11:04

already I'm just like I'm throwing for

11:06

a loop just because I didn't think

11:09

I don't know there's so many different

11:11

pieces of detail that Yeah, make it

11:13

seem like it's more legit than

11:15

than not interestingly enough Yeah,

11:17

the corroboration amongst the family

11:20

is very interesting because when you've

11:22

covered as many cases as we

11:24

have this is episode 222 by the

11:26

way to age us It feels

11:28

like yesterday was episode 200, but when

11:30

you cover as many cases as

11:32

we as we have you start to

11:34

notice patterns and one of those

11:36

patterns for especially possession and demonic centered

11:39

topics is that nobody else really

11:41

sees what they see the person is

11:43

in isolation and it makes them

11:45

feel a little stir crazy like no

11:47

one's believing them so I agree

11:49

the fact that the family is also

11:51

reporting things either says one of

11:53

two things the cynic in me says

11:55

that they're validating this large phenomenon

11:57

and exacerbating it, or on the other

11:59

hand, something, whatever

12:01

it is, something is happening.

12:04

And David seems to be the center of it.

12:07

So David said he in his nightmares

12:09

dreamt of a scary man with black

12:11

eyes, again, very similar to what he

12:13

saw in Debbie and Cheyenne's new house

12:15

to be, right? The place that they

12:18

were going to rent. Yeah. This scary

12:20

man with big black eyes, animal

12:22

features, pointed teeth and ears, and

12:24

it had hooves instead of feet.

12:26

And so now we start to

12:28

get very close to the biblical

12:30

description of a demon or the

12:33

devil and. Because of this, the

12:35

Glatzels turned to their Catholic Church

12:37

in order to seek some help.

12:39

This seemed beyond, you know, the

12:41

corporeal, right? Beyond the help of

12:43

the police. The house is shaking.

12:46

Our son is screaming and crying at night. He's

12:48

seeing things. He's been pushed down. Let's

12:51

turn to the church. Right. I mean, like,

12:53

where else can you turn? I feel like

12:55

even if you were not big into religions,

12:57

like, well, like, can I guess it go

12:59

to the church because who else is going

13:01

to be even remotely qualified in a way?

13:03

I don't know. If I'm seeing something that's

13:05

shaking my doubt in science, I might start

13:07

burning sage and I don't know if you

13:09

drink holy water or not, but I might

13:11

imbibe it. You know, you know what? I'll

13:13

do it. Why not? Can't hurt. It might

13:15

put some little angels in my blood next

13:17

to the ghouls and, you know, a little

13:19

battle. There might be like the white blood

13:21

cells that cancel it out. Yeah.

13:24

Now, I'd be very curious as we

13:26

move into this possession phase and eventually

13:29

into the crime phase, how this lines

13:31

up with the movie. Because of course,

13:33

we're covering the case as we know

13:35

it, collated from a lot of different

13:37

sources, including the documentary. But the movie,

13:39

of course, is going to take some

13:41

liberties. Right. And I'm curious

13:44

where this maybe differs. Now,

13:46

at this point, reportedly, someone

13:48

from the church blessed their home, but

13:51

David continued to see strange figures even

13:53

when awake. And it would

13:55

often be this same demonic figure. But

13:57

interestingly, sometimes it would

13:59

appear to him as something else. And

14:01

I want to quote him, quote, an

14:04

old man with a white beard

14:06

dressed in a flannel shirt and jeans,

14:08

end quote. So you got pop pop

14:10

and you got a demon. Yeah, feels

14:12

like. a traditional ghost that maybe inhabited

14:14

the house before you and one feels

14:17

not that way at all. Well, look,

14:19

I mean, who's to say that the

14:21

ghost has to dress up every time? I'm

14:25

just I'm just saying you don't dress

14:27

up every time you go out, you

14:29

know, just he's got formal wear. Sometimes

14:31

maybe you just. want to be casual

14:33

and in all honesty it could just

14:35

be a casual thing that goes just

14:37

like like man oh my god like

14:39

we got a casual ghost we don't

14:41

know the rules regulations i'm sure like

14:44

ghosts might be able to change their

14:46

forms or something and it's just like

14:48

i don't know oops i forgot to

14:50

put my clothes on or whatever yeah

14:52

yeah oh whoops forgot we were meeting

14:54

today this is my This is my

14:56

comfy jeans. I mean, who's to say

14:58

like the afterlife is so strict, right?

15:00

Oh, I would hate that. I would

15:03

suck. That would suck if the afterlife

15:05

is black tight. Listen, we're all going

15:07

to look fly, but we have to

15:09

admit it's not super comfortable. No, no,

15:11

not at all. But

15:13

what I see here, taking the story

15:15

at face value is maybe the

15:17

demon taking on a different form to

15:19

bring David in. lower his defenses,

15:22

or I don't know, play mind games

15:24

with him, right? So

15:26

eventually these visions became so

15:28

distressing that David began to miss

15:30

school and even gained 60

15:32

pounds. And to add to the

15:34

concern, there would be times

15:36

where he would wake up with

15:38

unexplained bruises and scratches, again,

15:40

just more physical evidence of something,

15:42

just something happening. And with

15:44

no answers, and David's condition

15:46

seemingly only getting worse, the Glatzels didn't

15:48

know who to turn to. So, of

15:50

course, the infamous Warrens got involved. In

15:52

fact, it was one of the neighbors

15:55

who told the family about Ed and

15:57

Lorraine Warren. Now, we've talked about

15:59

these two in many different episodes. In

16:01

fact, to the point where I feel like

16:03

we should do a dedicated episode about

16:05

the history, the stories, and honestly, some of

16:07

the infamy, some of the criticisms and

16:09

critiques about, like, the drama that surround the

16:12

Warrens. Yeah. I mean, because they monetized

16:14

it. They it. Oh, they monetized. lot of

16:16

it. Yeah. You know, you can say

16:18

get that bag, but you can also see,

16:20

and you'll see it kind of in

16:22

this case in particular, how they only seem

16:24

to perhaps exacerbate it. So for everybody

16:27

that they seem to be out there helping,

16:29

they might also be hurting situations or

16:32

exacerbating them, right? So without, you

16:34

know, we'll do a full breakdown and

16:36

we've talked about them before, but

16:38

kind of crash course here, Ed and

16:40

Lorraine Warren were self -proclaimed demonologists with

16:42

Lauren being a self -claimed clairvoyant. With

16:44

their powers combined, they investigated paranormal

16:46

encounters all kind of out of their

16:48

home base, filled with possessed trinkets.

16:50

And it was honestly, this is kind

16:53

of mind boggling. And maybe this

16:55

is how the neighbor knew about it.

16:57

Their house was just a short drive away

17:00

in Monroe, Connecticut, about 14 miles or

17:02

22 kilometers from Brookfield. So they really weren't

17:04

that far away. Oh, that's got

17:06

to be how. Yeah. I mean, like

17:08

a famous couple like that, they got a

17:10

house down there and they keep they

17:12

keep all their. Weird freaky stuff stuff that

17:15

you shouldn't be touching or looking at

17:17

in their home, which is wild. Yeah, it's

17:19

always wild to me. I mean, did

17:21

we say they got it blessed like every

17:23

week or something like that? That's what

17:25

they did. They blessed it like frequently. And

17:28

now I believe since both Ed and

17:30

Lorraine have since passed, it is under

17:32

the ownership and supervision, I should say,

17:34

maybe of the sun and law. And

17:37

it has since moved to my most

17:39

recent understanding. My fiance at some point

17:41

went out there as part of the

17:43

Annabelle movies. And so there was a

17:45

press thing happening. And so she and

17:47

a friend of ours, Blaine

17:49

Gibson, they went there and actually got to see

17:51

the Annabelle doll and got to see a

17:53

lot of these trinkets and things at their museum.

17:56

But since then, that was a few years ago,

17:58

I guess it's moved. And I don't know

18:00

how you move a house filled with possessed objects.

18:03

Exactly. But I assume very carefully.

18:05

Yeah. Yeah. So the Warrens, they also

18:07

founded the New England Society for Psychic

18:09

Research. Honestly, a pretty cool acronym, NESPR,

18:12

N -E -S -P -R, makes me think of

18:14

James Bond and Vesper, I just don't

18:16

know that name. But

18:18

of course, they are known for

18:20

their involvement with many, many famous

18:22

ghost stories, a few of which

18:24

we've covered, right? Amityville, Anadol, many,

18:27

many others, as well as

18:29

the movies based on this, right?

18:31

The Conjuring Universe. Now, according to that

18:33

documentary, Devil on Trial, in their

18:35

first meeting with the Warrens, they brought

18:37

along a doctor to examine David

18:39

before interviewing him. Which I do have

18:41

to appreciate, and his health did

18:43

seem quite normal. Nothing stood out to

18:45

the doctor as a, oh, this

18:47

could be an underlying cause, right? Per

18:49

People magazine, Lorraine said of

18:51

David, quote, while Ed interviewed

18:53

the boy, I saw a black, misty

18:56

form next to him, which told me

18:58

we were dealing with something of a

19:00

negative nature. Soon the child was complaining

19:02

that invisible hands were choking him and

19:04

there were red marks on him He

19:06

said that he had the feeling of

19:08

being hit and quote now I don't

19:10

know about you But if I saw

19:13

a large ominous misty smoky black form

19:15

floating in the room I think that

19:17

would give me a negative vibe for

19:19

sure. Yeah, it makes me think of

19:21

like insidious. Yes when they're like looking

19:23

at the the parents and like you

19:25

see that demon sitting around the dock

19:28

yeah yep that made my skin crawl

19:30

yeah well done now the warrens determined

19:32

that david was possessed by a demonic

19:34

entity so they encouraged the family to

19:36

document his behavior the documentary on netflix

19:38

includes some of these recordings things like

19:40

that he said quote you will die

19:42

end quote and he was caught on

19:45

record actually saying other things i don't

19:47

want to quote it here but insulting

19:49

his mother for example Now, as time

19:51

went on, David began to growl and

19:53

hiss, violently sit up and down over

19:55

and over, attack his family. At one

19:57

point, he supposedly spoke in Latin, and

20:00

I was curious. I wanted to dig

20:02

into that. I wanted to see if

20:04

there were recordings of it, if we

20:06

could confirm that it was Latin and

20:08

maybe not just kind of battle. But

20:11

either way, he claimed throughout all

20:13

of this time that he had

20:15

a feeling of being choked and

20:17

it's unclear how many incidents like

20:19

this occurred over time. During this

20:21

time though, he recited Bible verses

20:23

and parts of the book Paradise

20:25

Lost. So if you don't know,

20:27

Paradise Lost is an epic poem

20:29

from the late 1600s and it

20:31

explores many different religious themes, but

20:34

kind of truncating at all. It

20:36

primarily focuses on the idea of

20:38

good versus evil. the concept of

20:40

free will within the confines of

20:42

predeterminism, right? Like fate is sealed,

20:44

but you have free will within

20:46

it, kind of. Oh, interesting. And

20:48

the author kind of sought to

20:50

justify God's ways to men is

20:52

really the idea behind that book.

20:54

And so suffice to say, a

20:57

very religious foundation on that thing.

20:59

Yeah. Now, here's what's interesting. The

21:01

Warrens claimed that there were 43

21:03

demons. Possessing David at that time

21:05

what yeah 43 demons and they

21:07

performed then three Exorcisms on him

21:09

that I was very curious how

21:11

they came up with 43 and

21:13

it turns out that Ed Warren

21:15

had told people magazine that David

21:17

gave him 43 different names and

21:20

therefore it must be 43 different

21:22

demons kind of talking to Ed

21:24

Hmm this reminded me very succinctly

21:26

of the demon house of Gary,

21:28

Indiana where two psychics told a

21:30

mother in her house that It

21:32

was possessed with upwards of 200

21:34

demons. Otherwise, these are kind of

21:36

cartoonishly large numbers that you don't

21:38

normally see in a case like

21:40

this. God, I mean, no 200

21:43

people. That's crazy. Yeah.

21:45

And that was a very small home, too. We

21:47

did a whole episode on that. But 200

21:50

demons in that small little Gary Indiana house would

21:52

be a little crowded. Yeah, very. This

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apply. Now during

22:54

one of these three exorcisms you

22:56

have a moment that is straight out

22:58

of the exorcist itself Johnson right

23:00

the the fiance to Debbie the soon

23:02

-to -be brother -in -law to young David

23:04

Apparently taunted the demons and encouraged them

23:06

to enter him instead You know

23:08

leave him alone take me come for

23:11

me and at least one source

23:13

the gross law group states that Johnson

23:15

visited as he called quote an

23:17

abandoned well where David supposedly first saw

23:19

the scary man There he then

23:21

begged the demon to possess him instead

23:23

But the way we see it

23:25

in a lot of our research is

23:27

that David never went to some

23:29

sort of abandoned well This might be

23:31

made up It seems that David

23:34

first had this encounter at the house

23:36

that Debbie and Cheyenne were like

23:38

looking to move into So I wanted

23:40

to cover this thing this abandoned

23:42

well idea. It's a very visual very

23:44

amazing story But I'm not sure

23:46

about the authenticity of that piece. Yeah,

23:48

seems exaggerated. Yeah. Now, eventually, in

23:50

October of 1980, that same year, right,

23:52

the Glatzels got psychiatric help for

23:54

David and sent him to a private

23:56

school according to People Magazine. By

23:59

November, Johnson and Debbie decided to move into

24:01

their new apartment and she got a new job.

24:04

While things appeared to be going better for

24:06

the Glatzel family, the Warrens told police

24:08

that they predicted tragedy would fall on the

24:10

family. And as you know, it

24:12

did. And were the Warrens investigated?

24:14

because I feel like if I

24:16

said, hmm, tragedy is gonna befall

24:18

that family and then a murder

24:20

happened, you know I'm detained. You

24:23

know they're asking questions. you locked up.

24:25

Yeah, like, what do you know? What did

24:27

you do? You look fighting those allegations. Yeah.

24:30

Now, before we move into the

24:32

crime phase of this story, this

24:34

case, Brookfield police officer

24:36

John A. Anderson told New York Times

24:38

in 1981, quote, that they were

24:40

working with clergy in a house they

24:43

claimed to be a demonic lair

24:45

and that there was some potential they

24:47

thought for some violent act. So

24:49

it's in the water, it's in the

24:51

air, people are feeling the idea

24:53

that some sort of violence might befall

24:55

this area, a lot

24:57

of demonic energy centering on

25:00

this family, but after these

25:02

exorcisms, David isn't fully done

25:04

with what he's feeling, what

25:06

he's seeing, these nightmares continue,

25:08

but Otherwise, it's relatively uneventful

25:10

for four months. Again,

25:12

David still has a few things happening on

25:14

and off, and we don't know exactly when

25:16

that wound down and disappeared, but

25:19

four months later, on February

25:21

16th, 1981, Arnie Cheyenne Johnson called

25:23

in sick from his job of

25:25

tree pruning, and Cheyenne then met

25:27

up with his fiance, as you know, Debbie,

25:29

at her new job in the Brookfield boarding kennels.

25:32

So... on that day was accompanied by

25:34

Johnson's sisters as well as her cousin. So

25:36

it's kind of like this micro family

25:38

reunion happening at her job, I guess.

25:40

And Glatzel's manager, who was also the couple's

25:42

landlord, Alan Bono, who was 40, suggested

25:44

that they have lunch at a local

25:46

bar. Since not much is going on, I

25:49

guess at work. Cheyenne kind of called

25:51

off sick from work. They're all meeting up.

25:53

Hey, let's go to the bar, get

25:55

some lunch. And during lunch, all of

25:57

the adults had been drinking, but Bono became

25:59

especially inebriated and a little belligerent. They

26:01

all then returned to the kennels, where

26:03

Bono invited everyone back to his apartment, which

26:05

was upstairs. And around 6pm

26:08

that day, Bono made an offensive

26:10

comment about Glatzel, which then led

26:12

Johnson to attack him in response.

26:14

Like, hey, don't offend my fiance.

26:17

It must have been some pent -up energy

26:19

here. The drinking's involved, of course, and he

26:21

attacks. Liquid courage. Or liquid

26:23

stupidity, however you want to look at. Right.

26:26

The courage to say something is

26:28

stupid. Yeah. Now, before this all

26:30

settles and turns into a murder, the

26:33

Washington Post reported that Johnson's sister, Wanda,

26:35

claimed that he actually began growling at Bono,

26:37

which is kind of interesting. And then

26:39

after a scuffle amongst the two, right, he

26:41

kind of grabs them, they tussle a

26:43

little bit, Johnson took out his pocket knife

26:45

and then stabbed Bono five times in

26:47

the abdomen. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Also, why

26:49

do you got a pocket knife? I

26:51

don't know, man. Sometimes people just walk around

26:53

with knives on them. You know, like

26:56

a Swiss army knife. I get that, you

26:58

know, yeah, or you know, like I

27:00

might have one of them switch combs, you

27:02

know Yeah, you never know when like

27:04

you need to put a few hairs back

27:06

in place Listen when I was younger

27:08

It was a thing like late high school

27:10

early college walk around a little bit

27:12

of self -protection a little bit of just

27:14

like young machissimo Right where you've got you

27:16

know, you've got a little knife on

27:18

you I had a friend who was like

27:20

super into collecting knives. So it was

27:22

also kind of just a friend group. He

27:24

was like, Hey, happy birthday. Here's one

27:26

of my knives. And I don't know. That

27:29

was a short lived period. But I

27:31

guess I can get it. You know, why,

27:33

you know, you might have it for

27:35

utilitarian reasons, especially if you're a tree pruner,

27:37

you know, I don't know if you

27:39

need to be cutting rope or anything. But

27:41

I guess it's not too out of

27:43

the normal. But when it's used as a

27:45

weapon, quite abnormal. Right. So shortly after

27:47

these five stabs to the abdomen on the

27:49

bono, Johnson got up and ran into

27:51

the nearby wooded area. It kind of disappeared

27:53

for a little bit, and police eventually

27:55

arrested Johnson two miles away from the apartment.

27:58

And according to the, again, the documentary,

28:00

Devlon Trial, an EMT actually recognized

28:02

Johnson walking along the road and themselves

28:04

called the police, and that's how

28:06

the police found him. According

28:09

to the Manchester Evening Herald, Johnson

28:11

told police officers he had no memory

28:13

of the incident and had not

28:15

intended to hurt anyone. And the police

28:17

cruiser, he actually said he, quote,

28:19

had a drinking problem, end quote. And

28:21

when he had arrived at the

28:23

station, he became incoherent before then falling

28:25

asleep for roughly half an hour.

28:27

Bono himself was declared deceased a few

28:29

hours later in the hospital. So

28:31

Johnson had no prior record before this

28:33

particular crime. And honestly, this became

28:36

the first recorded murder in the entire

28:38

history of Brookfield, which is pretty

28:40

wild. But now it's time to move

28:42

into the trial, obviously. The

28:44

one where... to claim possession, and I

28:46

think it's kind of fascinating how they

28:48

went about it. In September of that

28:50

year, Johnson's lawyer, Martin Manella, presented the

28:52

defense he planned to use at Danbury

28:54

Court. He argued that Johnson was under

28:56

demonic possession at the time of the

28:58

crime. If we go

29:01

back to David's exorcisms, the

29:03

lawyer and kind of the family

29:05

a little bit claimed that Johnson had

29:07

reportedly behaved differently after these exorcisms.

29:09

This would also be around the time

29:11

that he would speak directly to

29:13

the demon and ask it to jump

29:15

into him, leave David alone. We

29:17

know that David is still experiencing some

29:20

of this stuff at this time,

29:22

but suffice to say, you know, Debbie

29:24

claimed that at least on four

29:26

different occasions, Johnson seemed to enter a

29:28

sort of a trance, that he

29:30

did seem to act differently after these

29:32

exorcisms. And she claimed that at

29:34

one point he actually punched a hole

29:36

into a chest of drawers. And

29:38

another time he fell about 100

29:40

feet, maybe doing his job. without any

29:43

injury. A hundred feet. A hundred

29:45

feet is pretty far to fall. I

29:47

mean, people have survived like jumping

29:49

out of an airplane. You know

29:51

I mean? But yeah, that's that's

29:53

a lot. Right. Right. A

29:55

hundred feet without injury. It's

29:58

not impossible. It is

30:00

interesting, right? And so they're kind of

30:02

using these odds and ends to be

30:04

like, clearly, something supernatural is surrounding Johnson

30:06

here. In fact, Debbie told People Magazine,

30:08

quote, Cheyenne would go into a trance.

30:10

He would growl and he would say

30:12

he saw the beast. Later, he would

30:14

have no memory of it. It was

30:16

just like David, end quote. I'm surprised

30:18

people didn't say that the warrens like

30:20

sabotage is mine or anything like that.

30:22

Oh, we're going to get there. I'll

30:24

tell you that. Here we go. Yeah.

30:26

When we start, when we start getting

30:29

into the nitty gritty in the theories,

30:31

there's definitely some pieces around the warrens

30:33

that I go, aha. See, that's

30:35

what I'm looking for because there's a lot of.

30:37

You know, drama surrounding the warrants, a lot

30:39

of controversy surrounding them. And this is exactly why

30:41

this is one of those cases. I'm

30:43

going to play my hand a little

30:45

bit where I think their presence only

30:48

exacerbated things, only made it worse. I

30:50

mean, in a sense, like, I'm sure

30:52

that either they want to help or

30:54

monetize or whatnot, but like it could

30:56

help justify someone's thoughts, feelings, opinions on

30:58

something that may not be there. You

31:00

know, having someone that's like an authority.

31:02

on it and I could justify like

31:04

you know like oh I am possessed

31:07

as opposed to like no you just

31:09

kind of kind of need someone to

31:11

talk to we need some help you

31:13

know absolutely you're in the right train

31:15

of thought and we'll dive into that

31:17

but the lawyer Manila used all of

31:19

this history that we just talked about

31:21

as evidence that Johnson was possessed and

31:24

thus not guilty of the crime particularly

31:26

because the demonic possession would mean that

31:28

Johnson did not intend to commit the

31:30

murder And he intended to bring in

31:32

what he called exorcism experts to the

31:34

court. Manela pointed out that

31:36

wild demonic possession has never been used

31:38

as defense in the United States.

31:40

It has in the United Kingdom. This

31:43

is a completely different case. Maybe we'll talk

31:45

about it someday. But Michael Taylor

31:47

was the first to use such a

31:49

defense. And this was just a few

31:51

years prior during 1974. Maybe what is

31:53

that? Seven years, give or take. And

31:55

this was in England while he was

31:57

on trial for murder. And in that

31:59

case, they basically acquitted him on insanity.

32:02

So he went into hospital for two

32:04

years, then he went into a special

32:06

ward for two years, and then he

32:08

was out. And so I think that

32:10

that was the angle that Manila was

32:12

trying to go for some sort of

32:14

plead insanity type of thing. So

32:17

this trial began on October

32:19

28th, 1981 in Danbury, Connecticut. However,

32:22

The judge considered this quote, incompetent defense,

32:24

end quote, and refused to allow its use

32:26

in court. It was even further noted

32:28

that there could not have been any physical

32:30

or scientific evidence. to prove Johnson's possession.

32:32

So when we go back and talk about

32:34

your gut instinct at the top of

32:36

the show, how are they going to argue

32:38

this? How are they going to prove

32:40

it? The judge flat out said, this is

32:42

incompetence. I will not allow it in

32:44

the court. There's nothing you could possibly bring

32:46

to me that would show this happening.

32:48

Not even a slide of red blood cells

32:50

covered in gremlins. Yeah. Well,

32:53

I mean, like the judges themselves, like

32:55

they build reputations, you know, absolutely public with

32:57

colleagues. And so it's one of those

32:59

things where. They they want to

33:01

protect our reputation and so absolutely I

33:03

mean that case where it's like okay

33:05

We're gonna take this case seriously where

33:07

this person was possessed like that's that

33:09

could be a huge hit to their

33:11

profession 100 % and you also have

33:14

the thing called and I'm no lawyer

33:16

I'm not an expert in any way

33:18

But you also have a thing called

33:20

precedent where if you allow this you

33:22

might create a precedent where future murders

33:24

might consistently go through what I was

33:26

possessed, what I was possessed, and all

33:28

that does is get in the way

33:31

of fact -finding injustice. And so,

33:33

you know, believer or not, I do

33:35

think that there needs to be room

33:37

for evidence. And if the judge is

33:39

coming to the table and saying, there

33:41

is no possible way that you have

33:43

any physical or scientific evidence that you

33:45

can convince me, we're not bringing it

33:47

into the court. That is, what is

33:49

that, is kangaroo court or whatever. Yeah,

33:51

kangaroo court. And so in response to

33:53

that though, Manila kind of shifted the

33:55

argument to say that Johnson was not

33:57

guilty instead this time for self -defense. On

34:00

November 24th, Johnson was given the verdict

34:02

of not guilty of murder, but

34:04

instead guilty of what's called

34:06

first degree manslaughter. Basically the

34:09

difference being murder, being intentional,

34:11

planned. like you wanted to do

34:13

it, it was premeditated in some way, manslaughter

34:15

being kind of something like in the

34:17

heat of the moment, something took you over,

34:20

it's still a crime, you still

34:22

killed somebody, but it's slightly different

34:24

in the law's eyes. And

34:26

so because of that, the judge decided to

34:28

give him the highest sentencing possible for

34:30

manslaughter, which it's not life for murder, but

34:32

it was 10 to 20 years in

34:34

prison. Yeah. Debbie and Johnson were married

34:36

in prison in 1985, and he was

34:39

then released a year later in 1986 for

34:41

good behavior. In total, if you did

34:43

the math, he spent five years in

34:45

prison, and he has not been involved

34:47

with the law ever since as far as

34:49

we could find. I'm surprised that like,

34:51

I mean, I guess like he was

34:53

defending her honor, but also like that's

34:55

that's a big thing to be like, OK,

34:57

you killed someone. I'm I still love

35:00

you. I'm going to get married to you.

35:02

Yeah. I mean, hey, maybe that's true

35:04

love. I don't know. It transcends. Murder

35:07

but it's really hard to say, you

35:09

know We have the facts that we

35:11

have I don't know exactly what bono

35:13

said that night murder is never the

35:15

option But it I don't know it's

35:17

it's weird when you hear about a

35:19

murderer who kind of like gets out

35:21

early on Good behavior or or in

35:23

the other case a murderer who gets

35:25

out because they pled possession I don't

35:27

know what that makes you feel like

35:29

I feel like it just gives you

35:32

a bunch of Colorful emotions about like

35:34

am I safe or am I overthinking

35:36

this or you know, can people be

35:38

rehabilitated? Was this a like volatile moment

35:40

that won't be rekindled right like There's

35:42

a lot to unpack in this, and

35:44

I'm going to take the first angle.

35:46

When we talk about these theories, I

35:48

want to take the first angle of

35:50

this being a true case of possession

35:52

and talk about all the elements that

35:54

go into that. And then there's a

35:56

lot to talk about, too, of

35:58

the false case of possession. And this

36:00

is where I really want to unpack that

36:02

conversation. There's a lot to think about

36:04

and digest. So we'll table those thoughts for

36:06

a second. But any thoughts

36:08

before we dive into those two angles?

36:10

No. I mean, honestly, as wild

36:12

as it is, it's pretty straightforward.

36:15

Yeah. Yeah. Pretty clean cut as far as the

36:17

story. Not a lot of twists and turns. But

36:20

let's talk about it then. True case

36:22

of possession. Even at the time of

36:24

Johnson's trial, David continued to have demonic

36:26

episodes, though they were less frequently. So

36:28

it's unclear when these stopped entirely. It's

36:30

a little fuzzy, depending on the source

36:32

you look at, but eventually they did.

36:35

And maybe this crime was an inciting

36:37

moment to be like, oh, I'm not

36:39

possessed anymore. Did it happen like publicly,

36:41

like in the middle of like a

36:43

court hearing or something at any point?

36:45

No, that's a good question. As far

36:47

as I'm aware, these were mostly in

36:49

private circumstances, still, you know, mostly at

36:52

night, having nightmares, things like that. Yeah.

36:54

I'm not sure if it was like,

36:56

hey, the family's at the grocery store

36:58

and something supernatural happens or an outburst

37:00

happens. I didn't see a lot of

37:02

that. Now, it's possible David truly was

37:04

possessed by many demons with only one

37:06

or several of the 43 leaving his

37:09

body to take over Johnson. Again, let's

37:11

take it at face value. If there

37:13

are 43 demons here and Johnson's saying,

37:15

no, come to me, it is possible

37:17

that David maintains some level of possession

37:19

and Johnson then has his own. And,

37:21

you know, when you think about it,

37:24

it is frequently claimed in a lot

37:26

of these stories. We talk about the

37:28

paranormal studies. We talk about demonology. It's

37:30

frequently claimed that a demon in a

37:32

possession case weakens its host over time

37:34

until it can start to exert more

37:36

control. And with four months of air

37:38

quotes, nothing before Johnson's sudden violence, one

37:41

could argue that maybe that's what was

37:43

happening. You know, we hear his

37:45

change of behavior. We hear suddenly that

37:47

he's punching a hole in a drawer. He

37:49

falls out of a tree doesn't get

37:51

hurt like maybe again is this the possession

37:53

taking hold after being arrested You know

37:55

if you want to believe him or not

37:57

Johnson claimed he had no memory of

38:00

the murder which would track with a possession

38:02

and Again, there's a lot to unpack

38:04

here. We're gonna talk about the false claims

38:06

of possession here in a second But

38:08

my instincts are flying off the handle with

38:10

wrinkles in this logic But before we

38:12

dive into that other side of the equation

38:14

Debbie herself is confident that Cheyenne was

38:16

different after David's Exorcisms. There it

38:19

is. But even with this, even with

38:21

this kind of defense, there are some

38:23

wrinkles, right? Her claims of his changes

38:25

in behavior, at least publicly, right? We

38:27

don't know within the family or whatever,

38:29

but publicly facing, she says, oh yeah,

38:32

his behavior changed. Those came

38:34

out after the crime occurred. So is

38:36

this hindsight or was this a case

38:38

where there was no reason to point

38:40

it out until she had to defend

38:42

him? Oh, yeah. So like, is she

38:44

changing history or is it just, well,

38:46

why would she tell the public that

38:48

her fiance's behaving differently until it mattered.

38:50

You know, and according to People

38:52

Magazine, Johnson's co -workers didn't seemingly notice

38:54

any personality changes, but you know, maybe

38:56

co -workers wouldn't notice the changes that a

38:58

fiance would. Yeah, you're not, you're not

39:00

going to bed together at night, you

39:02

know. You hope not, you know, if

39:05

you're engaged. Yeah, you know. Some

39:08

people do, it's unfortunate and then

39:10

breaks up families, but you hope. That

39:12

well, you can also never rule out.

39:14

It's just a friendly hangout and sleep.

39:16

Everyone pulls out the sleeping bags and

39:18

yeah. Everyone is having a fun sleepover

39:20

and nothing else going on. But yeah,

39:22

taking it at face value. Some of

39:25

these things tend to kind of work

39:27

and and I do like to suspend

39:29

disbelief before I then kind of take

39:31

the other side, which is what

39:33

we're about to do here because I

39:35

think the again. There's a web to

39:37

untangle here, a red web as it

39:40

were. So I want to break this

39:42

down from a few different angles, right? We have

39:44

a legal defense angle, we have the drinking, and

39:46

we also have what stood out to

39:48

me anyway. Again, talking about 222 plus

39:50

episodes, there is a religious background mixed

39:52

with kind of big life changes for

39:55

an 11 year old. So let's talk

39:57

about each of those angles. First off,

39:59

Manella's defense of, quote, the devil made

40:01

me do it, end quote, might have

40:03

been a clever argument to get his

40:05

client the best deal possible. As I

40:07

indicated, Michael Taylor ended up

40:09

getting two years in hospital and two

40:11

years in his cure ward, which is obviously

40:13

less than 10 to 20 years for

40:15

manslaughter or potentially life for murder. So

40:17

there is some motivation to see if he

40:19

can be acquitted on the grounds of

40:21

insanity, much like precedent across the pond. Maybe

40:24

that's the angle there. As far as

40:26

the drinking angle, it's unclear why exactly Johnson

40:28

went so far as to murder Bono,

40:30

but he may have also been more inebriated

40:33

than he thought, or than the people

40:35

around him might have thought. Not only did

40:37

he confess to having a drinking problem

40:39

while in the police cruiser, but the word

40:41

around town, this is interesting and worth

40:43

noting, it's the rumor mill, but

40:45

word around town was that there

40:47

may have been an affair between Debbie

40:49

and Bono. So... See,

40:51

that's that's a sloppy

40:53

thing because most likely that's

40:56

just gossip, you know,

40:58

right? So regardless of fact

41:00

or fiction rumor or truth

41:02

the fact that there's drinking involved

41:04

There's a lot of poor

41:06

decision -making happening in that if

41:08

he's already defensive if he's already

41:10

a little I don't know

41:12

is this real is this not

41:14

you create then a powder

41:16

cake of a situation and one

41:18

small move, one disrespectful comment,

41:20

and you might ignite that and

41:22

just explode this volatile situation.

41:24

And that could just be simply

41:26

what happened for better or

41:28

worse, right? Like that it was

41:30

misunderstanding, mixed with drinking, mixed

41:32

with emotions and the end. Now,

41:35

this is where things get fascinating for

41:37

me. I love when other people come

41:39

to the table. So let's talk now

41:41

about Debbie and David's other brother. Carl

41:43

Glatzel, he was the eldest of Debbie's.

41:45

So Debbie was the oldest. These

41:48

were all younger brothers. He's the oldest of

41:50

the younger brothers. OK, got it. Yep.

41:52

He has stated that he does not believe

41:54

his brother nor Johnson were ever possessed. In

41:57

the Netflix documentary, he argues that the

41:59

Warrens described what David would do if

42:01

possessed, right? So the Warrens are literally

42:03

right in front of David. They're there

42:05

to help because of his nightmares, because

42:07

of what he says he's seeing. And

42:09

that's where that was at, right? That's

42:12

where the warrants entered the picture. But

42:14

then in front of him, they would

42:16

say to the parents or the family,

42:18

well, if he was possessed, you would

42:20

see growling, you would see cussing, you

42:22

would see this, that and the other.

42:25

And so Carl is saying, you're basically

42:27

giving him instructions on how he

42:29

should act out. If

42:31

he's believing he's possessed, you're priming

42:33

his behaviors further. Yeah, yeah,

42:35

it couldn't, it doesn't even have

42:38

to be intentional either. Right. Listen,

42:40

I'm not too much of a cynic,

42:42

but the fact that the Warrens told

42:44

the family to document everything, knowing now

42:46

that they have like a movie and

42:49

book franchise and everything like that, and

42:51

the fact that they kind of exacerbated

42:53

the underlying issue by in front of

42:55

David telling him what else a supposedly

42:57

possessed person would do, they just added

42:59

fuel to a small fire, right? There's

43:01

a concern here, something to figure

43:03

out. But man, did they dump gasoline on

43:05

it? I didn't even think about that. Yeah,

43:07

it could have, it could have been purposeful.

43:09

And, you know, it could have been more

43:11

nefarious, like, you know, tell them in front

43:13

of them. So then that way it caused

43:15

more of a thing. And then, you know,

43:17

we're already involved in this or like first

43:19

on the scene and give it a little

43:21

nudge. Just give it a little nudge. I

43:23

mean, it's a theory, but it's it's it's

43:25

so gross. Right. Right. And this is coming

43:27

from Carl. And so I do want to

43:29

take it at face value. I do believe

43:31

that he would have no reason to to

43:34

lie about this because he cares more about

43:36

his family than the Warrens. And if, man,

43:38

if the Warrens came through and mess with

43:40

my family like that, yeah, I'd be, I'd

43:42

be telling everyone. Again, it is

43:44

just a theory, but it does kind of

43:46

rob it of some validity. He also

43:48

pointed out that while his family did make

43:50

a little money, the Warrens themselves, and

43:52

this is with hindsight because it's a recent

43:54

documentary, I believe, family made a

43:56

little bit of money, but he's

43:58

pointing out the fact that the Warrens

44:00

now have a book deal here

44:02

they got the conjuring universe they got

44:04

so their motivations didn't seem aligned

44:06

with helping David right mm -hmm yeah

44:08

no it's money -based further he claims

44:10

that he found a note from his

44:12

mother's diary describing the family as

44:14

all having their quote medicine and quote

44:16

now this this is a little

44:18

wrench in the whole system he discovered

44:20

in this diary a note about

44:22

the family taking their medicine And he

44:25

believes that his mother was giving

44:27

the entire family something that's called Dyfenhydramine.

44:29

You might have seen it as

44:31

called Samonex. It's more commonly known as

44:33

Benadryl. It's an allergy medicine that

44:35

a side effect is drowsiness. I have

44:37

had this before on long planes,

44:39

but the idea was maybe maybe the

44:41

mom was doing this to make

44:43

the family tired for whatever reason. We

44:45

don't know. But if that is

44:47

in her diary and it's true. and

44:49

his theory stands, he's kind of

44:51

theorizing that maybe it's the long -term

44:53

use of this drug that caused David's

44:55

visions, maybe that caused these nightmares,

44:57

that caused him to act out, and

44:59

then that rolled into getting the

45:01

Warrens, and then that rolled into this

45:03

spiraling out of control. And

45:06

so, possession or not, he's saying,

45:08

okay, if my mom is actually giving

45:10

people too much Benadryl for too

45:12

long, you're not supposed to take it

45:14

prolonged periods of time, He then

45:16

says that Johnson himself was also a

45:18

quote victim of this as well.

45:21

And so maybe that he wasn't in

45:23

his right mind because of this.

45:25

Dan can like prolonged Benadryl do that?

45:27

That's wild. I'll be honest. I

45:29

don't know. Yeah. I haven't had Benadryl,

45:31

but for like, let me give

45:33

myself some drowsiness when I fly to

45:36

London, you know. Yeah, we take

45:38

it responsibly. Right. Right. Or, you

45:40

know, like my dad's got allergies to certain things.

45:42

So it was always a. Oh, I'm breaking

45:44

out in hives. Let me take some Benadryl to

45:46

knock this out. But I always knew it

45:48

made him tired, so he would go nap then

45:50

too. But yeah, I'm curious. Christian,

45:52

actually, if you don't mind while we

45:54

kind of wrap out some of these thoughts,

45:56

if prolonged Benadryl use has any sort

45:58

of side effects of this nature, if it

46:00

can... I would imagine being tired all

46:02

the time doesn't help the mind. No, not

46:05

at all. So while he takes a

46:07

look at that... of wrapping out that idea.

46:09

Maybe the truth isn't that a demon

46:11

messed with Johnson's mind, but instead the mother

46:13

-in -law's use of this so -called medicine did.

46:16

And this medicine, again, it could refer

46:18

to anything, it could even refer to

46:20

religion, but we don't know exactly what

46:22

that is. To the Guardian, the

46:24

director of Devil on Trial, Christopher

46:26

Holt actually had this to say about

46:28

David and his brother, Alan. Quote,

46:30

I've been lied to on numerous occasions,

46:32

and as an interviewer, you get a sense

46:34

for people like that? And I was

46:36

sitting with these guys for nine hours, grueling

46:38

days, and you can see if a

46:40

story starts to change. It never

46:42

did with David and Alan. I

46:45

believe that they believe this happened. And

46:47

I think the ending of our film explains

46:49

it all. I don't think it was

46:51

devils or demons, but I do think something

46:53

went on in that house. End

46:56

quote. I wasn't expecting like this whole,

46:58

like, I mean, it's in a diary,

47:00

though. Was that, I mean, I guess

47:02

you could, they could analyze. Let's say

47:04

it was at a plant in the

47:06

diary. Yeah, man. Is that admissible? But

47:08

they would analyze the writing.

47:12

Yeah. How do you even

47:14

analyze that? I don't know. I mean,

47:16

forensics, right? Because your

47:18

writing is kind of like a fingerprint, in

47:20

a sense, because you write a certain

47:22

way. Yeah. Unless you're like, I'm a murderer,

47:24

and then you start writing with your

47:26

left hand for the ransom notes, and it's

47:28

just terrible. I wonder how well does

47:30

that work? Like, he wrote with his left

47:32

hand. Tell! Yeah,

47:35

I don't know. I don't know. But you're

47:37

right. I mean, like, you could match the writing

47:39

and see if it was authentically her or

47:41

if it was done later. But again, even if

47:43

it's true, even if it's real, like, what

47:45

is the medicine? And what, to

47:47

me, I'm very curious, what made

47:49

Karl Glatzel theorize that it might

47:52

have been benadryl or diphenhydramine, right?

47:54

Like, was that prominent in the

47:56

house? Was that something they knew

47:58

about? Could it have been something

48:00

more sinister? Could it have been something less sinister?

48:03

It's fascinating. To answer your question

48:05

on the long -term side effects

48:07

of Benadryl, the only one

48:10

that looks like there's been some

48:12

serious research into is possible

48:14

associations with causing dementia down the

48:16

line, but some other possible

48:18

long -term side effects include just

48:20

general memory problems, anxiety, and then

48:23

dependence and withdrawal symptoms if

48:25

you were to stop taking it.

48:28

But other than that, all other side

48:30

effects, the spheres they can be tend

48:32

to be more temporary. Okay. So again,

48:34

not a doctor. And I know it's

48:36

kind of habit -forming. They say don't take

48:38

it consistently for the sake of sleeping.

48:41

But you know, if she's self -prescribing

48:43

this to the family and they kind

48:45

of become slightly insomniac -ish, right? They have

48:47

struggles sleeping and so they need it.

48:50

That's, I mean, obviously sleep deprivation does

48:52

terrible things to the mind. You

48:54

know, you start seeing things or hearing

48:56

things, your anxiety spikes, like all

48:58

things shift with the lack of sleep.

49:00

But that was a corner that

49:02

I did not expect. A little twist

49:04

in the turns, so to speak.

49:06

But in closing, I have

49:08

my own theory. And this is

49:10

a theory I didn't really see out

49:12

there very much, if at all. But after

49:14

covering so many cases like this, I

49:16

can't help but connect a few dots. We

49:19

have David, who's 11 years old

49:21

with a pretty strong religious foundation, especially,

49:23

right, if he can quote the

49:25

Bible and Paradise Lost from memory. Yeah,

49:27

that's part of his. Possession?

49:30

Additionally, he's going through a pretty big

49:32

and perhaps upsetting change. His big sister,

49:34

the beacon of his life, the role

49:36

model that he's had all 11 years

49:38

and he has never known a house

49:41

without her. And also, her fiance. They're

49:43

about to move out. And so what's

49:45

interesting to me is that the text

49:47

he's quoting from carry things of God's

49:49

mysterious ways, free will and fate, the

49:51

talk of demons and their fight against

49:54

God, just to name a few of

49:56

them, right? And while that doesn't really

49:58

solve the murder here, I

50:00

think that this is kind of

50:02

David going through it emotionally. He's

50:04

seeking answers through scripture and the

50:06

family plus the Warrens, perhaps only

50:08

fed into this possession story and

50:10

therefore he himself fed into it.

50:12

Like, he's either lashing out, right?

50:15

Because this started when they were

50:17

house hunting, when his sister was

50:19

looking to move out. Yeah. And

50:21

perhaps, you know, for whatever reason,

50:23

he's a young boy. He's lashing

50:25

out. Maybe it's a desperate attempt

50:27

to avoid change. Perhaps this stress

50:29

led to shared stress, which combined

50:31

with rumors and drinking then culminated

50:33

in murder one afternoon. But suffice

50:35

to say, my theory is that

50:37

there's a very explainable, understandable nugget

50:39

to how this began. There is,

50:42

yeah. And then there also just

50:44

happens to be unfortunately murder as

50:46

part of this story and that itself

50:48

also seems like a unique combination

50:50

of moments. And so there is this

50:52

desire to stitch them together. There's

50:54

the court case trying to stitch them

50:56

together. But honestly, I just think

50:58

that there's a lot of family stress

51:00

happening, a lot of unanswered

51:02

questions and scares and it just

51:05

put, I think, the whole family

51:07

on edge, which obviously doesn't help.

51:09

Yeah, it could literally be that

51:11

simple. Yeah, that it's just like

51:13

it's a stressful situation for a

51:15

young boy and it just escalated

51:17

with the fiasco of the the

51:20

press and the warrens and all

51:22

that. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I could

51:24

see it. It's a bomber, man.

51:26

It's like, of course, you know,

51:28

if you want to separate yourself

51:30

from reality, it is a fascinating

51:33

story, right? It it reads

51:35

well as a if you were to

51:37

take it as fiction or as a

51:39

movie, as a book, whatever. But like

51:41

underneath it all again, I can't keep

51:43

saying it enough like we've covered so

51:45

many cases you start to see patterns

51:47

in some I'm not a behavior expert.

51:49

I'm not a psychologist or anything like

51:51

that But when you cover enough cases

51:54

like this you start to see how

51:56

there are trends in motivations You start

51:58

to see like we always talk about

52:00

money the idea of selling a book

52:02

or getting notoriety is always at the

52:04

crux of kind of faking a ghost

52:06

story or claiming I was the murderer

52:08

when actually you're not the serial killer,

52:10

right? That happens a lot. And I

52:12

think that this is another one of

52:15

those themes that sometimes, you know, children

52:17

are young. They are not equipped with

52:19

all the tools that you hope to

52:21

gather over the course of your life

52:23

as an adult. And they they react

52:25

differently. And when the biggest part of

52:27

your life, the biggest part of your

52:29

formative self is religion, you'll find answers

52:31

in there or you'll seek answers in

52:33

there. And So yeah, it's

52:35

just an unfortunate story here because clearly

52:37

the family was absolutely going through something.

52:40

It's just a matter of what that

52:42

was. And to me, I

52:44

don't think that this was a case

52:46

of 43 team -ins. No. Creeping into

52:48

the house, either way, still upsetting

52:50

and culminated in the loss of life,

52:52

which is always upsetting. Yeah, which

52:54

is interesting that, like, I

52:56

agree. I think the most

52:58

plausible answer is just

53:00

the most straightforward. Not

53:02

like... Yeah? a glorified answer, which

53:04

is just a stressful situation, which

53:07

is interesting because the mother's like,

53:09

oh, my sibling moved away and

53:11

it's like, no big deal. But,

53:13

you know, people are different walks

53:15

of life. So. Absolutely. Different

53:18

bonds, different relationships.

53:20

Exactly. And honestly, as

53:23

much turmoil as it seemed to maybe cause,

53:25

and I'm making an assumption, this is my

53:27

theory, but you know, if that is the

53:29

case, as much turmoil as it caused David,

53:31

you love to see a relationship that's strong

53:33

like that, you know, especially brother and sister

53:35

relationships. You love to see

53:37

that. And hopefully the family, after all

53:39

of this kind of settled down and hopefully

53:41

things got better, you know, and he

53:43

grows up and they continue to have this

53:46

wonderful relationship where they lean on each

53:48

other and love to see each other and

53:50

all that. But yeah, this has been

53:52

the Trial of Arnie Cheyenne Johnson.

53:54

Again, a case so well known for

53:56

bringing possession to the defense in a

53:58

court here in the United States for

54:00

the first time. Again, a headline grabber,

54:02

but it didn't live very long because

54:05

the judge was like, nah. Yeah, I

54:07

mean, rightfully so. You don't want to

54:09

be the one that like, you know

54:11

what I mean? Like one,

54:13

it just makes a fool out of

54:15

you and the whole case is

54:17

just kangaroo court, right? And then on

54:19

top of that, it's like, well. like

54:22

then people are gonna be like well

54:24

I'm gonna look at this case and

54:26

I'm gonna mimic that I'm gonna do

54:28

something terrible and say that I was possessed

54:30

and there's an actual Shants like or

54:33

outcome, you know, right? Now what you're talking

54:35

about is Tom Fulory. Yes, I won't

54:37

stand you not stand for it Listen,

54:39

this is just like those alien cases

54:41

at the end of the day, you know,

54:43

we're gonna talk about the facts and

54:45

the fictions We're gonna talk about the theories

54:47

and and anything we can't explain. I

54:49

love to I love that corner, right? We're

54:52

gonna explain what we can and whatever's

54:54

left unknown it is Do I want there

54:56

to be ghost schools and goblins a

54:58

hundred percent? Yeah, but am I gonna pretend

55:00

that there's like, you know when a

55:02

case like this comes through that it

55:04

must have to be a certain way.

55:06

I'm sorry. No. No, yeah. You know, because

55:09

listen, in my heart of hearts, I'm

55:11

still thinking like, if we get Zach Bagans

55:13

involved and he goes, goes Danny Phantom

55:15

style and brings a demon into this world.

55:17

And we, I don't know what the

55:19

full idea was, but I pitched a while

55:21

ago, like demon fight club. Yeah, I

55:24

remember that. You know, demons fighting it out.

55:26

Like I'm still like here for that,

55:28

you know, so. If there's valid cases

55:30

to be made for demons, I got

55:32

a pitch to sell you on. You know,

55:34

or maybe maybe we make a ban.

55:36

They just a bunch of fiddlers, right? Devil

55:39

went down to Georgia, played with a fiddle.

55:41

And I've never seen a band with 10 fiddles, but I think

55:43

we could do it. I feel like that might be excessive. But

55:48

with that task force, thank you all

55:50

so much for continuing to listen to

55:52

us. 222 episodes, that's pretty wild. We

55:54

will see you next month for

55:56

our mystery madness. Come on over to

55:59

redwebpod.com. Again, sign up for free. Come

56:01

hang out with us. Come send your

56:03

votes in. What mysteries, what topics did

56:05

you love? Come contribute to

56:07

the bracket. And if you wanna support us

56:09

directly, you can do that there. You You

56:11

get the podcast for free. get Fredo's show,

56:13

Movie Club. We talk about all sorts of

56:15

scary movies from classic to crap, breaking down,

56:18

reacting, it's a fun time. We also get

56:20

Christian and Jillian involved. And lots of other

56:22

things. We We have bonus videos every month.

56:24

We're looking at doing more. And honestly, we're

56:26

noodling on some ideas. So So again, redwebpod.com.

56:28

And with that said, Fredo, I'll see you

56:30

right back here next Monday for yet another mystery.