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Hannah. I'm Saruti. And welcome

3:32

to red-handed. Hold on to

3:34

your knackers, because... They're going

3:36

to get knackered. For hawning.

3:38

Especially for the menfolk who

3:40

may be listening. I don't

3:43

even have knackers, but I

3:45

was... It reminded me of

3:47

how I felt when we

3:49

did that Halloween episode. Many

3:51

a year ago. on the

3:53

boobes getting cut off with

3:55

cheese wire. Mmm. Piano wire.

3:57

some sort of wire, and

4:00

I was like, just check,

4:02

they're still there, they're still

4:04

there, no balls there, but

4:06

if they were, it's like

4:08

having phantom pain, phantom cringe.

4:10

So be warned, everybody. Yes,

4:12

abandoned hope, all ye who

4:14

enter here. I'm going to

4:17

set the scene for you

4:19

in a basement flat in

4:21

North London. A naked man

4:23

is tied to a table,

4:25

implied with drugs. Over the

4:27

next hour he's subjected to

4:29

unimaginable sexual torture. He's branded

4:31

with a hot iron. His

4:34

scrotum is sliced open and

4:36

then sewn back up again.

4:38

Eventually, the man, doling out

4:40

this horrific torture, reaches for

4:42

a set of clamps. An

4:44

agricultural tool designed for castrating

4:46

bulls. He holds them to

4:48

the victim's testicles. and crushes

4:51

down. Screams are agonizing. The

4:53

man on the table begs

4:55

his persecutor to stop, sobbing

4:57

that he doesn't want to

4:59

die. Sounds like a scene

5:01

straight out of criminal minds,

5:03

doesn't it? But sadly, while

5:05

our nightmare scenario is horrifyingly

5:08

all too real, thousands of

5:10

people were watching this torture.

5:12

And that's because. The man

5:14

with the castrating tool was

5:16

the infamous online content creator

5:18

who went by the rather

5:20

on the nose name, the

5:22

eunuch maker. He uploaded this

5:25

video of what he had

5:27

just done to this man

5:29

tied to the table in

5:31

full to an online community

5:33

of tens of thousands of

5:35

like-minded users across the world.

5:37

These people call themselves nullows.

5:39

and they're a subculture of

5:42

people who fantasize about the

5:44

removal of sexual organs. And

5:46

with the unit maker at

5:48

their health... This community shared

5:50

videos of their own genital

5:52

mutilations, castrations, pnectomies and amputations.

5:54

And as if that wasn't

5:56

bad enough. In this community

5:59

genitals were also bought and

6:01

sold and even eaten. And

6:03

as if that wasn't bad

6:05

enough. The victim at the

6:07

centre of that unimaginable scene

6:09

that Hannah just painted for

6:11

you was there tied to

6:13

that table. of his own

6:16

free will. And it just

6:18

gets worse because a few

6:20

months after this horrific situation

6:22

where he'd had his bulls

6:24

crushed on that table, the

6:26

same man contacted the eunuchmaker

6:28

again and asked to come

6:30

back. This time at the

6:33

end of another brutal session,

6:35

the eunuchmaker fetched a kitchen

6:37

knife. And as agreed between

6:39

the two of them. In

6:41

one swift motion, he sliced

6:43

off the victim's penis, all

6:45

once again filmed for a

6:48

waiting crowd of thousands of

6:50

online nullows. So, if you've

6:52

got the balls for it,

6:54

sorry, I'm actually not... Had

6:56

to be done. Let's take

6:58

a deep, dark dive into

7:00

the murky online world of

7:02

the eunuchmaker. and the fetishistic

7:05

subculture of mutilation. On the

7:07

way, we'll find out how

7:09

the law treats people who

7:11

consent to acts of violence

7:13

and barbarity, and those who

7:15

carry it out. We'll ask

7:17

whether it's even possible to

7:19

give consent to serious permanent

7:22

harm, and examine the blurry

7:24

outer limits of that consent,

7:26

which is a concept we've

7:28

looked at before but years

7:30

ago. about if one can

7:32

consent to one's own murder.

7:34

And of course, we're not

7:36

going to leave you happy.

7:39

we wouldn't dare. We're going

7:41

to try and find out

7:43

what makes a man desire

7:45

more than anything else in

7:47

the whole world to have

7:49

his junk sliced off with

7:51

a kitchen knife. So let's

7:53

start at the beginning, shall

7:56

we? Or shall we not?

7:58

Are you still there? I

8:00

don't know. Because the ringleader

8:02

of this sinister operation wasn't

8:04

always known as the eunuch

8:06

maker. He was born... Marius

8:08

Gustavuson on the 7th of

8:10

December 1977 in Dramen Norway

8:13

Now Dramon is a peaceful

8:15

port city just to touch

8:17

southwest from Oslo Marius was

8:19

an only child typical and

8:21

grew up in a big

8:23

isolated house in the countryside

8:25

with his parents his grandparents

8:27

his uncle and cousin and

8:30

look I'm not here to

8:32

shit on only kids I

8:34

would know plenty of people

8:36

with fucking siblings there are

8:38

all sorts of bonkers But

8:40

this bit about being an

8:42

only child, being very lonely,

8:44

as we'll find out, growing

8:47

up in a big isolated

8:49

house out in the middle

8:51

of nowhere, it's very very

8:53

similar to Armin Muyves. So

8:55

Marius Gustafson's school was small

8:57

and rural as you'd expect,

8:59

and its 100 or so

9:01

students came from all over

9:04

the surrounding countryside. But the

9:06

young Marius kept to himself.

9:08

He was not great academically,

9:10

and was definitely the kind

9:12

of kid who was always

9:14

picked last for the football

9:16

team. He lacked social skills

9:18

and found it hard to

9:21

interact with the other children.

9:23

But, while he had no

9:25

friends, he was never violent

9:27

or confrontational. He was just

9:29

troubled, confused and, like I

9:31

said, lonely. His family always

9:33

knew that Marius was gay.

9:35

But, no one knew how

9:38

to talk to him about

9:40

it. Still, this closeted misfit

9:42

didn't stay that way for

9:44

long. became the president of

9:46

ruse. If you've never heard

9:48

of Roos, you're about to

9:50

get to know. It is

9:52

a huge deal to Norwegian

9:55

children. If you're American, picture

9:57

your high school prom, British

9:59

kids, you can picture whatever

10:01

leavers trip you've got to

10:03

go on and get chatted

10:05

up by your teachers like

10:07

sruci parlour. So it's that

10:09

kind of deal, but it

10:12

goes on for weeks. Norwegian

10:14

high school is celebrate Roos

10:16

for pretty much their entire

10:18

last semester. So that means

10:20

colourful overall overall overalls. A

10:22

bus, which is kidded out

10:24

with a sound system, and

10:26

there's parties, after parties, after

10:29

parties, after parties. And the

10:31

day after the big last

10:33

blowout knees up, the Norwegian

10:35

teenagers sit their exams to

10:37

fuck it out. Why isn't

10:39

it the other way round?

10:41

I do not know. And

10:43

all this booze-soaked socialising might

10:46

sound like hell on earth

10:48

for the young Marius Gustavsen.

10:50

The awkward, uncomfortable in his

10:52

body social outcast. But an

10:54

extravaganza like Roos needs a

10:56

hell of a lot of

10:58

organizing. And as its president,

11:00

Gustafson actually thrived. In case

11:03

you are confused, it is

11:05

confusing. Roos president is not

11:07

like super jock or homecoming

11:09

king type of a vibe.

11:11

It's more like head boy,

11:13

future politician kind of situation.

11:15

God. And it is also

11:17

a position that commands a

11:20

lot of respect. Gustavusen met

11:22

with other regional ruse presidents

11:24

from the area to organize

11:26

the parades altogether. And, weird

11:28

he may have been, but

11:30

he did organize one hell

11:32

of a party. After graduating,

11:34

Gustavusen went to business school

11:37

in Dramon in 1996. Yet

11:39

a few stints in the

11:41

UK over the next few

11:43

years, studying in an English

11:45

language school in Hastings, and

11:47

even serving as a hotel

11:49

receptionist in Torquis, in 2000.

11:51

But back in Drummond, Gustavson's

11:54

desire to be the centre

11:56

of a community. kicked in

11:58

once again. Now out and

12:00

proud, he became a respected

12:02

figure on the local gay

12:04

scene. From 2003, he served

12:06

as the regional chairman of

12:08

Norway's National Association for Lesbian

12:11

and Gay Liberation. Gustavson hosted

12:13

gay weekends and campaigned for

12:15

more inclusive sex education to

12:17

be taught in schools. He

12:19

cancelled young gay people and

12:21

coached them on how to

12:23

come out. Colleagues remember him

12:25

as a big teddy bear.

12:28

a fun supportive mentor who

12:30

loved Eurovision and lived for

12:32

the cause. This activism in

12:34

fact continued throughout everything we're

12:36

about to tell you. So

12:38

yes, all those bookastration tool

12:40

table tie-down sessions. And long

12:42

after his move to London,

12:45

Gustafson took an active role

12:47

in pride celebrations and acted

12:49

as a senior steward at

12:51

Pride marches in London until

12:53

2019. I... I'm always very

12:55

suspicious of people who love

12:57

your vision. I wondered what

12:59

we were going to say

13:02

there. But yes, I don't

13:04

get your vision. I've watched

13:06

it one year and I

13:08

was like, it was fine.

13:10

We're getting ahead of ourselves.

13:12

At the very same time,

13:14

as all of this squeaky

13:16

clean community stewardship, a more

13:19

defiant side of Marius Gustafson

13:21

was bubbling away beneath the

13:23

surface. So was this very

13:25

Dennis Nelson, isn't it? Yeah,

13:27

he's a real like collage

13:29

of many crazy we've come

13:31

across. After business school and

13:33

his many trips out to

13:36

the UK South Coast, he

13:38

moved up to Trondheim in

13:40

Northern Norway. And it was

13:42

there that he committed his

13:44

first crimes. We're not quite

13:46

at the basement mutilation torture

13:48

dungeon stage just yet. We're

13:50

just talking about some light

13:53

in Bezelmanton fraud. And

13:55

here's how it went down, whilst

13:58

in tron time. was the leader

14:00

of a housing association. And he

14:02

set up a system of fake

14:05

invoices while ordering decorating supplies. And

14:07

he kept going until he'd scammed

14:09

the association of goods worth thousands.

14:12

And he got caught. Very caught,

14:14

actually, although his first prison sentence

14:16

was suspended. However, a few days

14:19

after his sentencing, Gustavson did it

14:21

all again on a much larger

14:23

scale. And by the time he

14:26

was caught for this second scheme

14:28

in 2001, he'd embezzled merchandise worth

14:30

more than £30,000, for which he

14:33

spent eight months in prison. Now,

14:35

like we said, all this might

14:37

seem a bit trivial in comparison

14:40

to what you know is coming.

14:42

But it does speak to a

14:44

very early lack of accountability. When

14:47

Gustavsen was first caught, he flatly

14:49

refused to take any blame. In

14:51

his statements, he actually implied that

14:54

it was entirely the Housing Association's

14:56

fault for not having the right

14:58

controls in place that would have

15:01

stopped him from being able to

15:03

steal all that money. It's like

15:05

those hackers who like show banks

15:08

the holes in their system. Yeah,

15:10

but he's like, but I'll tell

15:12

you now you caught me. So

15:14

yes, he's clearly a very capable

15:17

community leader who can be supportive

15:19

and generous with his time. But

15:21

even here, there's a sort of

15:24

desperation for a place in the

15:26

world that you see. And with

15:28

these early crimes, Gustavison displays a

15:31

total disregard for the consequences, and

15:33

a willingness to absolutely take what

15:35

he wants without a second thought.

15:38

Now we can't know for sure

15:40

whether or not he was spooked

15:42

by his prison time, although he

15:45

clearly felt like he shouldn't be

15:47

held accountable for the crimes. But

15:49

it was followed by a period

15:52

of relative calm once he got

15:54

out. After

15:56

his conviction, Marius Gustafson got a

15:58

job with the Norwegian. postal service

16:01

and he worked there for the

16:03

next 10 years. Then he met

16:06

a guy and in 2005 they

16:08

got married. In late 2011 they

16:10

moved to Bournemouth here in the

16:13

UK where Marius worked for Xerox

16:15

as a customer service manager. I'd

16:18

rather enter your revision. Anyway, during

16:20

these years as far as we

16:22

know Marius Gustafson enjoyed a decade

16:25

of happy domestic stability. His

16:27

then husband has since said,

16:30

I want people to understand

16:32

his background and who he

16:35

is. He's far from a

16:37

monster. He has done a

16:40

lot of admirable work. Okay.

16:42

I don't know if being

16:45

the president of a housing

16:47

association where you steal loads

16:50

and loads of money and

16:52

then just like organizing pride

16:55

marches, absolves you of cutting

16:57

off penises. Don't know, but

16:59

sure. Well, I think he

17:02

would argue that he was

17:04

providing a service. Still, his

17:07

ex-husband may defend him, but

17:09

they still didn't make it,

17:12

their marriage broke down, and

17:14

that event triggered a severe

17:17

downward spiral. And shortly after

17:19

Gustafson arrived in London post-divorce,

17:22

the mutilations began. So

19:30

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honeylove.com/red-handed. According

19:58

to Gustafson, the desire had always

20:00

been there. He says that at

20:02

the age of just 14 he'd

20:04

seen a picture in a book

20:06

of an Indian eunuch. This figure

20:08

was part of the Hidra community

20:11

who are officially recognized as a

20:13

third gender in some parts of

20:15

South Asia and immediately on seeing

20:17

this photo Gustafson said that he

20:19

thought that's who I am. According

20:21

to him the trauma of his

20:23

marriage breaking down awoke these feelings

20:25

in him again. Feelings that had

20:27

lain Dorman since childhood. But,

20:30

let's stick a big old

20:32

rusty agricultural clamp on that

20:34

for now. And take a

20:36

quick look back at castration's

20:39

past, with a little rundown

20:41

on the history of the

20:43

eunuch. Yeah, get ready to

20:45

learn some stuff that you

20:47

didn't know you needed to

20:49

know, and then, uh, do

20:51

you just tell everyone, tell

20:53

everyone, as they're going about

20:56

their days? And back

20:58

in ancient Greece, royal women wanted

21:00

their rooms guarded by fighters that

21:02

they didn't themselves find threatening. So,

21:04

to solve that problem, they would

21:06

just chop the guard's balls off.

21:08

It was common knowledge that castrating

21:10

livestock made them healthier and much,

21:12

much less aggressive. Testosterone, as we

21:14

can all see with our eyes,

21:16

is a major factor in aggression

21:18

anger and sexual desire. These ancient

21:21

Greek ladies wanted the same from

21:23

their most trusted soldiers. They wanted

21:25

them to be strong enough to

21:27

fight off intruders, but less volatile

21:29

and unpredictable. Or at least that

21:31

was the idea. Also, if you're

21:33

chopping off a man's balls, they're

21:35

not going to be able to

21:37

start a family, especially in ancient

21:39

Greece when they didn't have IVF

21:41

or whatever. So a man who's

21:44

not going to do that is

21:46

more likely to stay with you

21:48

for quite a long time. And

21:50

also the male royals could be

21:52

safe in the knowledge that... The

21:54

guards wouldn't fuck their wives and

21:56

secretly impregnate them while they weren't.

21:58

looking. It's kind of a triple

22:00

win if you are an ancient

22:02

royal Greek. What are they called

22:04

in Game of Thrones? Oh, they're

22:06

like part of the unsullied home.

22:09

Yeah, that's it. The only thing

22:11

I quibble with with the unsullied

22:13

is here with the like bedguards.

22:15

They take grown men who have

22:17

been through, you know, male puberty

22:19

and then they chop their bulls

22:21

off when they're adult men. At

22:23

that point it's not going to

22:25

make a difference like... I mean

22:27

it probably will make some sort

22:29

of a difference on like how

22:32

physically strong they can be because

22:34

obviously a testosterone is still there.

22:36

But they will have fully formed

22:38

as men. Whereas in-game of Thrones

22:40

with the unsullied they cut their

22:42

balls off like as babies and

22:44

then they also convince you that

22:46

they're like big strong men. Right.

22:48

And I find that a bit

22:50

confusing because I'm like but they

22:52

wouldn't have had male puberty. So

22:54

would they be that big and

22:57

that strong? Like I can get

22:59

it if they chop them off

23:01

later, but maybe I misunderstood on

23:03

my Game of Thrones law and

23:05

someone will correct me. And also

23:07

there's like dragons. True, true, true,

23:09

true. But it's the eunuchs that

23:11

I have the real logical problem

23:13

with. Oh my god. Anyway, because

23:15

of this practice, the word eunuch

23:17

came to mean any man who

23:20

had had their balls or their

23:22

penis or both. Intentionally chopped off.

23:24

It's a practice that goes back

23:27

at least 5,000 years. It was

23:29

practice in ancient Egypt, the Middle

23:31

East, China, Europe, and India. And

23:34

at one stage, the Chinese Emperor

23:36

had more than 2,000 unit gods.

23:38

So we've been chopping off. Yeah,

23:41

not always willingly, though. And if

23:43

we fast forward into the 17th

23:45

and 18th century, you also have

23:48

the very famous castrati, who are

23:50

male singers, castratedrated before puberty. High-pitched

23:52

singing voice. Is it worth it?

23:55

But girls went aloud in choirs.

23:57

So they didn't have... But I'm

23:59

just like, just get the next

24:02

set of boys. Like, everything ages

24:04

out. You age out. I mean,

24:06

sure, but I'm not, I'm not,

24:09

I'm not, obviously not advocating for

24:11

the practice of chopping off small

24:14

boys balls. But, you know, training

24:16

a singer. Takes a really long

24:18

fucking time. Get the fucking castration.

24:21

Yeah, hold on to him. Put

24:23

hours into this kid. Would you

24:25

like to hear what one sounds

24:28

like? Yeah. Sure. Sure. So

24:47

what is he like, 40?

24:49

I'll show you. Yes, that's

24:51

enough. I've been Maria from

24:53

you. No. Yes. He looks

24:56

like he's in his 50s.

24:58

Yep. Wow. Anyway, that's what

25:00

Unix are. And for the

25:02

most part, through the last

25:05

5,000 year history of them

25:07

being recorded to exist. was

25:09

not typically something people actually

25:11

volunteered to happen to them,

25:14

unless they had no other

25:16

choice. In more modern times,

25:18

though, people have kept doing

25:20

it. And by doing it,

25:22

I mean, castrating themselves. In

25:25

March 2012, Japanese artist Mao

25:27

Sugayama advertised his latest art

25:29

piece called the banquet. I

25:31

remember this, fucker. Yeah. And

25:34

if you don't, let me

25:36

tell you. Because Mao came

25:38

in dressed as a chef.

25:40

As a chef. and explained

25:43

that he'd removed his genitals

25:45

for the sake of his

25:47

art. He then took out,

25:49

said genitals, unwrapped the cling

25:51

film that he kept them

25:54

in, and placed them on

25:56

a wooden board. Then he

25:58

lit a little gas stove.

26:00

that he'd set up and

26:03

proceeded to cook the bits

26:05

in a frying pan with

26:07

mushrooms in a red wine

26:09

sauce. The dish was then

26:12

offered to diners. Most of

26:14

him tucked right in. Ugh.

26:16

No. Why? Boy, I feel

26:18

sick. Get a real job.

26:20

Anyway, this act shone a

26:23

light. on the movement who

26:25

call themselves nullows. A subculture,

26:27

as we told you at

26:29

the start, of people who

26:32

fantasize about the removal of

26:34

sexual organs. Maybe theirs, maybe

26:36

other people's, maybe both. Exactly

26:38

why this desire exists. We

26:41

don't know. Many nullows report

26:43

profound feelings of self-hatred, which

26:45

are focused on specific parts

26:47

of their body. Some, for

26:49

example, who experience sexual trauma

26:52

in their youth, or were

26:54

forced into sex slavery, carry

26:56

the feeling that their sex

26:58

organs have only brought the

27:01

misery. But then, there's body

27:03

integrity identity dysphoria. B-I-I-I-D is

27:05

a rare mental disorder in

27:07

which people feel that a

27:10

part of their body doesn't

27:12

belong to them. Usually this

27:14

body part is a leg.

27:16

and this is a dysphoria

27:18

that mostly shows up in

27:21

men. Possible causes include early

27:23

childhood trauma, as we said,

27:25

but also obsessive compulsive tendencies.

27:27

Neurological tests suggest that it's

27:30

a brain disorder which produces

27:32

a disruption of the body

27:34

image, similar to that experienced

27:36

by stroke patients. It's like

27:39

the opposite of phantom limb

27:41

syndrome, I suppose. as documentary

27:43

called Hole which is horrible

27:45

by Melody Gilbert and it's

27:48

a sympathetic look at a

27:50

series of B-I-I-I-D sufferers. They're

27:52

thoughtful, intelligent guys, and though

27:54

most of us could never

27:56

fully understand their deep desire

27:59

to be amputees, it's very

28:01

obvious that it is a

28:03

desire that runs very deep

28:05

indeed. One of the men

28:08

who's featured in this documentary

28:10

binds his leg whenever he's

28:12

in public, and that led

28:14

to a breakdown of his

28:17

marriage. There's another guy, actually

28:19

a lecturer at a British

28:21

at a British university at

28:23

a British university. who successfully

28:25

managed to get a doctor

28:28

to amputate his leg for

28:30

him. Wow. And he's very

28:32

pleased with it. He actually

28:34

reports feeling like a full

28:37

person for the first time

28:39

in his life, once his

28:41

leg was finally gone. Now

28:43

obviously, BIID is a nightmare

28:46

for medical ethicists. And we'll

28:48

get on to the ethics

28:50

of body modification to this

28:52

extent later in the episode.

28:54

But... it is a very

28:57

little known condition. Probably also

28:59

perhaps underreported due to the

29:01

secrecy of the people that

29:03

suffer with it, who usually

29:06

don't seek medical help. I

29:08

mean, I can empathise, I

29:10

can't understand because I am

29:12

not them, but like, you

29:15

are just going to get

29:17

laughed out the door, aren't

29:19

you? Nine times out of

29:21

ten. So there are those,

29:23

like the men in the

29:26

documentary hole. who sincerely want

29:28

their body parts gone and

29:30

who would do anything to

29:32

have it done safely by

29:35

doctors in hospitals. Then there

29:37

are those who derive sexual

29:39

gratification from the idea of

29:41

self-harm and mutilation. And then

29:44

there are also a thousand

29:46

shades in between. So there

29:48

is no one reason why.

29:50

For example, a person might

29:52

want their penis amputated. And

29:55

despite how little is known

29:57

about the condition, One thing

29:59

most of the experts agree

30:01

on is that the best

30:04

course of treatment is not

30:06

to remove. of the limb

30:08

that this person doesn't feel

30:10

belongs to them, but rather

30:13

to engage in therapy. As

30:15

one paper put it, the

30:17

aim is to quote, integrate

30:19

the alien limb into the

30:22

body image. But the main

30:24

point here is B-I-I-D, is

30:26

what Marius Gustafson, and his

30:28

future defence team, would later

30:30

argue, was his motivation for

30:33

all those streamed surgeries. Gustafson

30:35

found himself once more in

30:37

London. And he joined a

30:39

very active kink scene. Soon

30:42

enough, through some online digging,

30:44

he managed to find his

30:46

people. The Nollows were a

30:48

secretive, nascent community of people

30:51

who found themselves fantasising about

30:53

life-changing body modifications. Today, there

30:55

are countries where, after, you'd

30:57

hope, some pretty hefty safeguarding

30:59

processes, You can legally get

31:02

surgery to remove sexual organs.

31:04

And ladies, if you thought

31:06

this was all going to

31:08

be man-bits, sorry, cross your

31:11

legs, because this also includes

31:13

something called a vaginectomy. Which,

31:15

I'm going to tell you,

31:17

I'm going to tell you

31:20

what it is. I'm upset.

31:22

It's a procedure in which

31:24

the clitoris is buried under

31:26

the skin and the labia

31:28

are sealed, just leaving a

31:31

wee hole. There's just going

31:33

to be so many health

31:35

problems. I literally cannot believe

31:37

that a doctor is willing

31:40

to bury a clitoris and

31:42

so close the labia. Ugh.

31:44

Having said all of that,

31:46

the vast majority of people

31:49

that desire surgeries like the

31:51

ones we just told you

31:53

about can't have it. And

31:55

for a lot of them.

31:57

that leads to desperation and

32:00

to to other people like

32:02

them. Yeah and look some

32:04

people might argue with me

32:06

and saying oh why would

32:09

I say the doctor shouldn't

32:11

do it because look they'll

32:13

just do it to themselves

32:15

I'm like I would just

32:18

advocate for better mental health

32:20

care support for people that

32:22

are feeling that way. This

32:24

is all just about to

32:26

get so bad if you

32:29

thought the start was bad.

32:31

Mm. I guess Austin quite

32:33

quickly found himself at the

32:35

heart of this online community.

32:38

And he liked what he

32:40

saw. The feeling of control,

32:42

of empowerment, of being what

32:44

he later called the architect

32:47

of his own body. In

32:49

his own words, he wanted

32:51

to look like a kendole

32:53

with nothing down there. And

32:55

in 2017, Gustafson got sick

32:58

of weight. He contacted a

33:00

sex worker called Damien Burns.

33:02

Burns had grown up poor

33:04

and Catholic in Ireland in

33:07

the 90s and had severe

33:09

psychological trauma from his childhood.

33:11

And this trauma manifested in

33:13

his adult brain as desperation

33:16

and also a mounting drug

33:18

addiction that eventually led him

33:20

to sex work. And in

33:22

February 2017, Damien Burns received

33:25

a text from Marius. Asking

33:27

Burns to cut off his

33:29

penis for 500 quid. Burns

33:31

replied to this text saying,

33:33

I have no issue with

33:36

it, but won't you lose

33:38

a lot of blood, like

33:40

nearly die? Gustafsson said that

33:42

he'd be under local anesthetic

33:45

and Burns would get detailed

33:47

instructions on how to do

33:49

it. So, convinced, on the

33:51

18th of February 2017, Burns

33:54

came round to Marries Gustafson's

33:56

flat. and slice the Norwegian.

33:58

penis off with a vegetable

34:00

knife. The pair of them

34:02

filmed the whole thing and

34:05

in the recording Burns can

34:07

be heard saying well that's

34:09

one off the bucket list

34:11

I never expected that one

34:14

but his cavalier attitude didn't

34:16

last long. Burns said he

34:18

threw up on the way

34:20

home and he never did

34:23

receive that 500 pounds. This

34:25

is so horrible and traumatic.

35:33

After the crushing disappointment of false spring,

35:36

and I'm mad at all of you

35:38

for calling it the real one, we

35:40

are all dreaming of jetting off somewhere

35:42

sunny that is better than here. Luckily

35:45

though, Quince has got us covered for

35:47

our adventures this year. That's

37:41

bombas.com/red-handed and

37:43

code red-handed

37:45

for 20% off your first

37:47

purchase. bombas.com slash red-handed

37:49

and use code red-handed.

38:29

Former surgical assistant David Carothers

38:31

also helped with procedures, despite

38:33

his zero-appropriate training, though arguably

38:36

he had more experience than

38:38

Gustafson, or retired chemist Peter

38:41

Waitz, who also got in

38:43

on the action. Then Maris

38:45

Gustafson came into contact with

38:48

the 17-year-old Jacob Creamy Appleby.

38:50

Creamy Appleby had, in his

38:53

own words, fallen down an

38:55

internet rabbit hole. while looking

38:57

up dysphoria online. And when

39:00

Gustafson, an older, much more

39:02

experienced man, told Jacob that

39:04

his feelings were normal, the

39:07

teenager stuck around. He also

39:09

quickly joined Gustafson's in a

39:12

circle. And soon after Jacob

39:14

turned 18, Gustafson asked him

39:16

for help, amputating his leg.

39:19

and Jacob filling up that

39:21

bucket with dry ice, fuck

39:24

me. Gustavson kept his leg

39:26

in that bucket for eight

39:28

hours before calling an Uber

39:31

to the Royal Free Hospital

39:33

in London to have his

39:35

leg amputated. In my experience,

39:38

oubers will never pick you

39:40

up if you say you're

39:43

going to a hospital, you

39:45

have to say you're going

39:47

around the corner. And you

39:50

turn up with a fucking

39:52

leg that's been in dry

39:55

ice for eight hours. Oh

39:57

my god. Gustafson

40:00

was once again referred to

40:02

the psychiatry team at the

40:05

Royal Free, and they had

40:07

just never seen anything like

40:09

it. They even anonymised the

40:11

file and discussed this incident

40:13

with experts across the world.

40:15

The consensus was B-I-I-D. But

40:17

again, all that they could

40:19

do was offer Gustafson therapy,

40:21

which he again declined. And

40:23

he's been in a wheelchair

40:25

ever since. And we would...

40:28

Be remiss not to make

40:30

this rather salient point. Marius

40:32

Gustafson has received more than

40:34

18,000 pounds in benefits since

40:36

having his leg amputated. So

40:38

by now he was on

40:40

a roll and soon his

40:42

penis, testicles, nipple, left leg

40:44

and part of his ear

40:46

were all gone. He also

40:49

had a growing community around

40:51

him, even a sort of

40:53

hierarchy of close confidence. But

40:55

Gustavson was undoubtedly the centre

40:57

of this world. He'd found

40:59

a role and a purpose

41:01

at last. In 2017, he

41:03

founded a website called eunuchmaker.com,

41:05

which, yeah, you can look

41:07

it up. It's like, it's

41:09

out there. There's nothing too

41:12

graphic if you don't like

41:14

log in, but it's basically

41:16

like a ripped man. Not

41:18

ripped up, like you see

41:20

a hedge. with his arms

41:22

out, looking up at the

41:24

sky while there are chains

41:26

wrapped around his body. This

41:28

is the thing right, and

41:30

we are going to talk

41:33

about this more, is that

41:35

it's not just the body

41:37

bits lopping off, which is

41:39

obviously what leads the hospital

41:41

to make the diagnosis of

41:43

BIID. For Marcus Gustafson and

41:45

the people in his circle,

41:47

this is deeply sexual. Yeah.

41:49

And that image tells you

41:51

that, as well as everything

41:53

else we're about to tell

41:56

you. So eunuchmaker.com

41:58

was a place. to share,

42:00

watch and comment on videos

42:02

of castration, extreme body modification

42:04

and pure sexual torture. There

42:07

were videos of nipples, testicles,

42:09

penises and even the occasional

42:11

breast being cut off. Some

42:13

of the video showed the

42:16

clamping of testicles using badizo

42:18

clips, which are usually used

42:20

by vets in the castration

42:22

of cattle. Some showed needles

42:24

being inserted into genitalia and

42:27

injecting fluids. There were videos

42:29

of Pinal Subincision and we

42:31

really really really mean this

42:33

guys. Do not Google this.

42:36

There is a surprisingly graphic

42:38

photo on the Wikipedia entry

42:40

of what is known as

42:42

a Pinal Subincision. It's basically

42:45

the slicing open of the

42:47

urethra with a knife. So

42:49

this is what they're up

42:51

to. So all of this

42:53

was filmed and streamed on

42:56

the website for paying subscribers.

42:58

The subject's faces were like

43:00

often blurred out, but everything

43:02

else was shown in gruesome,

43:05

gruesome detail. All that aside,

43:07

one of the very strangest

43:09

things about this website is

43:11

just how much it looks

43:13

like a normal social media

43:16

site. Users could make their

43:18

own profiles and ad videos

43:20

or even stories. There were

43:22

all sorts of message boards.

43:25

used to discuss a variety

43:27

of topics. Those who had

43:29

genitals cut off even got

43:31

a little certified eunuch badge

43:33

next to their profile picture.

43:36

Oh my God. On the

43:38

site messaging was free and

43:40

on the videos you could

43:42

pay purview or get a

43:45

yearly VIP subscription for a

43:47

hundred quid. And the site

43:49

even offered discounted annual memberships

43:51

for 35 pounds. as a

43:53

part of the New Year

43:56

and Thanksgiving promotion. Oh my

43:58

god. stuck

44:00

to buy a gift for

44:02

that special someone? How about

44:05

a yearly subscription to lot

44:07

my cockoff.com. Oh my god.

44:09

It's just your opportunity to,

44:11

you know, get the person

44:14

maybe you're in a relationship

44:16

with to get on board

44:18

with your ultra-kink. I'm sad.

44:20

I actually am really sad.

44:23

This is horrible. Because I

44:25

can't stress it enough. It's

44:27

like, yes, if you have

44:29

BID, that's horrible. And I

44:32

really hope that you get

44:34

like all of the therapy

44:36

that you need to like

44:38

get through that. That's not

44:41

what's going on here. This

44:43

is like a fucking horrible

44:45

torture site for people that

44:47

are jacking off to this

44:50

shit. Like, it's just so

44:52

mind-boggling. who chose to take

44:54

part in filmed sessions could

44:56

set their own personal limits,

44:59

including a checkbox for whether

45:01

or not you were open

45:03

to lasting damage. As if

45:05

that like absolves the creators

45:08

of this of any responsibility.

45:10

The community grew and grew.

45:12

Until the site had almost

45:14

23,000 subscribers. At

45:17

its most popular, eunuchmaker.com

45:19

had more than 10,000

45:21

active users every day.

45:24

Now the majority of

45:26

these users of course

45:28

were passive spectators, but

45:31

to keep the community

45:33

alive, Gustavson needed active

45:35

subjects. He can't just

45:38

have a bunch of

45:40

people like watching along.

45:42

He needs creators. Writer

45:46

Marcel Thoreau in his documentary

45:48

on this case called Munich

45:50

Maker which I believe is

45:52

on Amazon Prime if you

45:54

really want to watch it.

45:57

No offence to Marcel Thoreau

45:59

is just by the end

46:01

of this episode you may

46:03

well have had enough. But

46:05

in that documentary he talks

46:08

to three people. who underwent

46:10

procedures at the hands of

46:12

Marius Gustafson. So if you

46:14

want to hear their motivations

46:16

firsthand, the documentary is certainly

46:18

worth a watch. But essentially

46:21

people with severe body dysmorphia

46:23

or histories of trauma and

46:25

self-hatred orders members of the

46:27

extreme kink scene would be

46:29

passed on directly to Marius

46:32

Gustafson. He'd meet them, chat

46:34

to them for hours, and

46:36

make the most extreme procedures

46:38

sound like the most normal

46:40

thing in the world. He

46:43

would tell these people how

46:45

pleased he was with his

46:47

own self-surgery, and he'd reassure

46:49

them that these procedures would

46:51

make them feel much better,

46:54

and also make them finally

46:56

feel comfortable in their own

46:58

skin. Mariskestavsen was hailed as

47:00

the figurehead of this underground

47:02

movement, and he reigned over

47:05

this industry of mutilation for

47:07

four years. I feel like

47:09

there are people who still

47:11

defend Gustafson saying, you know,

47:13

he was helping these people,

47:16

he was helping them deal

47:18

with this, this feeling that

47:20

they had when other people

47:22

couldn't help them, even healthcare

47:24

professionals. But really to me,

47:27

it screams groomer, like cult

47:29

leader, predator, whatever you want

47:31

to call it. Some people

47:33

may well have come to

47:35

him with their minds fully

47:38

made up already about what

47:40

they wanted to do to

47:42

themselves. But Maris Gustafson clearly

47:44

also... From what it looks

47:46

like, Love bombed and manipulated

47:49

vulnerable people who wanted desperately

47:51

to belong somewhere into going

47:53

through with absolutely horrific, permanently

47:55

damaging amateur surgeries. I don't

47:57

even want to call them

48:00

surgeries. Mutilations. Yeah. And I

48:02

have no doubt that several

48:04

times he did encounter people

48:06

who have BID. If a

48:08

disorder is so powerful it

48:11

convinces completely able-bodied healthy people

48:13

to... chop bits off themselves.

48:15

That's an incredibly powerful force

48:17

and he knows that. But

48:19

let's get back to the

48:22

procedures themselves for a moment

48:24

because you haven't had enough.

48:26

Sometimes these pretend surgeries were

48:28

carried out in hotel rooms

48:30

that were rented specifically for

48:33

the purpose so never feel

48:35

bad about leaving a hotel

48:37

room in a mess ever

48:39

again. For the most part,

48:41

Marius Gustavsin's mutilation marathons were

48:44

carried out and filmed in

48:46

a two-bedroom basement flat on

48:48

Pemberton Road on the harangay

48:50

ladder two minutes from where

48:52

I was living at this

48:55

exact time. No, no, thank

48:57

you. I've probably walked past

48:59

him. Oh my god. I

49:01

lived there for a long

49:03

time. It's just around the

49:06

corner. Ooh. But there's nothing

49:08

I can do about that

49:10

now. Oh my god. Anyway,

49:12

I've walked past the house

49:14

when somebody was having this

49:17

talk to them. Almost certainly.

49:19

unicmaker.com was Gustafson's only source

49:21

of income. His mum actually

49:23

still helped him out with

49:25

the rent. Harangay is not

49:27

cheap. even if you are

49:30

the unit maker and getting

49:32

18 grand for a leg

49:34

that you got rid of

49:36

yourself. Oh my god. And

49:38

in this flat that his

49:41

mum helped to pay for,

49:43

Gustafson kept in a frame

49:45

above his bed. His very

49:47

own amputated testicles. There was

49:49

a sign above the door

49:52

which read, Theo's playroom, open

49:54

24 hours, seven days. And

49:56

the entire flat was rigged

49:58

with cameras. And under

50:00

the stairs, wasn't Harry Potter?

50:03

It was a makeshift dungeon.

50:05

Yeah, just to be clear, like,

50:07

Gustafsson randomly calls himself Theo,

50:09

because that's why he has

50:11

that sign that says like,

50:13

Theo's playroom, like, whatever.

50:15

Now some of those who went

50:18

to the eunuchmakers dungeon

50:20

report some efforts towards

50:23

sterilisation. Even being sent

50:25

home with antibiotics. But make

50:27

no mistake. This was a horror show.

50:30

Castavson's flat was absolutely

50:32

nowhere near sanitary or sterilized

50:35

enough for any form of

50:37

medical procedure. I wouldn't let

50:39

this man put a plaster on me, let

50:41

alone should be carrying out

50:43

fucking amputations in his basement.

50:46

And just to, you know, really hammer

50:48

that point home. If a penis, for

50:50

example, was to be surgically

50:52

removed in a hospital, it would

50:54

take several hours. Blood vessels would

50:57

be individually tied off. so as

50:59

to prevent massive blood

51:01

loss. And the urethra would

51:03

be carefully sewn to the

51:05

edge of the skin to make

51:07

sure that the patient can still

51:10

urinate afterwards. And even

51:12

then, it is not an easy or

51:14

foolproof surgery. In our homemade

51:17

hack jobs, the penises were

51:19

sliced clean off in one

51:21

go with unsterilised kitchen knives.

51:24

Blood loss was common and

51:26

could be extreme. and

51:28

most of the pnectomies

51:30

were taken straight to A&E,

51:33

with many resulting

51:35

in catastrophic hemorrhaging

51:37

and emergency surgery. The

51:39

videos show victims in

51:42

severe excruciating and

51:44

debilitating pain. I can

51:46

say this confidently as someone

51:48

who lived around the corner

51:50

for many years. I don't doubt

51:52

that the victims were very,

51:55

very loud. Not a cell of me

51:57

as surprised that no one called

51:59

the police. And

52:02

just in case you

52:04

need us to tell

52:06

you again. The procedures

52:08

that Gustafson was carrying

52:10

out were completely and

52:13

totally sexually motivated. You

52:15

can often see Gustafson

52:17

masturbating himself or the

52:19

subject before he starts

52:21

the mutilation. He plays

52:23

a really big part

52:25

in the fantasy. Dominating

52:27

his submissive patient. So

52:29

sure, all of these

52:31

men. technically consented, at

52:33

least at first, consent

52:35

can be withdrawn at

52:38

any time. And they

52:40

all are, at least

52:42

technically, a part of

52:44

the same subculture. However,

52:46

it is crystal clear

52:48

from Gustafsson's messages, videos,

52:50

and his entire operation,

52:52

that he is grooming

52:54

and pressuring men to

52:56

take part in his

52:58

own dark fantasies. And

53:00

there is one last...

53:02

Very important detail. Among

53:05

all the content and

53:07

endless victims, one video

53:09

shows Gustavson electrocuting the

53:11

anus and penis of

53:13

a 16-year-old boy. The

53:15

boy is clearly in

53:17

pain and he is

53:19

begging for it to

53:21

stop. The video was

53:23

uploaded to eunuchmaker.com and

53:25

it was sold to

53:27

thousands of users. So

53:30

the question is, is that

53:32

really consent? No. I'm gonna

53:34

say? Oh, fucking. I feel

53:36

so. I haven't felt this

53:38

on well in a long

53:40

time during an episode. I

53:42

was starving when we recorded

53:44

this. Now I'm never gonna

53:46

eat again. Me too. I

53:48

was thinking, oh Hannah, before

53:50

that meeting we've got later,

53:52

we should really try to

53:54

get some lunch. What? Let's

53:56

just push on with the

53:58

thought experiment for a bit.

54:00

Obviously, like, non-consent consent is

54:02

a king, it's a thing

54:04

that people have, that people

54:06

have, so it's a thing,

54:09

so it's difficult. to, it's

54:11

a really tricky line to

54:13

tread. But it's like consensual

54:15

non-consent. My understanding is like

54:17

rape fantasies. I mean, it's

54:19

anything. Also I went and

54:21

saw my friends the other

54:23

day have just had a

54:25

baby and my friend was

54:27

like, love him named after

54:29

my granddad, middle name after

54:31

her granddad, but his initials

54:33

are CNC, consensual non-consent. but

54:35

did they have full knowledge

54:37

of everything that was going

54:39

to happen? Anyway, the men

54:41

in the videos may have

54:43

gone along with what was

54:45

being done to them, but

54:47

did they have full knowledge

54:49

of everything that was going

54:51

to happen to them? And

54:53

if they did know, how

54:55

did they know that? And

54:57

consent is continuous. be revoked

54:59

at any point. But when

55:01

you're in this consensual non-consent

55:03

environment, how do you know?

55:05

And I don't think that

55:07

Marius Gustafson would care too

55:09

much about you withdrawing your

55:11

consent. No. Because it's, you

55:13

know, he is very obviously

55:15

doing this for his own

55:17

gratification. 100-fucking percent. And there

55:19

is video evidence of people

55:21

asking him to stop and

55:23

I'm sure Maris Kostavsen and

55:25

his defence team will just

55:27

say, well it's just part

55:29

of the thing. But then

55:31

it's a weird argument to

55:33

me if you say, well

55:35

it's part of the thing,

55:37

like consensual non-consent. But then

55:39

you're saying it's part of

55:41

the thing, like consensual non-consent.

55:43

But then you're saying it's

55:45

not a sexual thing, like

55:47

consensual non-consent. But then you're

55:49

saying, why, why aren't you

55:51

stopping? That's a really good

55:53

point. And it wasn't just

55:55

the videos that Marius Gustavuson

55:57

was selling. Yes, if any

55:59

of you were wondering, just

56:01

what... did with all those

56:03

freshly sliced off genitalia, well

56:05

wonder no more. Penises and

56:07

testicles were hoarded in freezes

56:09

at Gustavs' and his accomplices

56:11

houses and auctioned off on

56:13

the website. He really doesn't

56:15

miss a trick. He doesn't

56:17

leave a penny on the

56:19

fucking table this guy. Then

56:21

there was also a series

56:23

of photographs taken on the

56:25

22nd of June 2018. In

56:27

these, Gustavson is shown taking

56:29

out a tubbeware box containing

56:31

a pair of human testicles.

56:33

He removes them from this

56:35

box, seasons them with salt

56:37

and pepper, how Norwegian, and

56:40

grills them in a frying

56:42

pan. He adds nuts, and

56:44

I'm not talking about that,

56:46

I'm talking about actual nuts,

56:48

cashes, pistachios, etc. as probably

56:50

some sort of sick joke,

56:52

and then he plates it

56:54

all up with some sliced

56:56

cucumber potatoes, chilies, and other

56:58

vegetables in what prosecutors would

57:00

later call an artfully arranged

57:02

salad. And in case there's

57:04

any doubt about whether this

57:06

was just some sort of

57:08

fake, playful photo shoot, there

57:10

are also texts between him

57:12

and an associate in which

57:14

they plan to cut off

57:16

a man's penis, ask a

57:18

friend to cook it, and

57:20

then feed it to him.

57:22

Say yes. They also occasionally

57:24

ate amputated genitals too. Just

57:26

in case you were wondering.

57:28

In 2019, a man later

57:30

referred to in court as

57:32

RP... turned up at the

57:34

eunuchmakers Pemberton Road flat, as

57:36

I was quietly living my

57:38

life round the corner. RP

57:40

had a spiralling drug addiction

57:42

and an overwhelming depression that

57:44

had only been exacerbated by

57:46

the death of two close

57:48

friends. And he found release

57:50

in the world of extreme

57:52

BDSM and sexual torture. Soon

57:54

enough, his interest in this

57:56

world of kink. led him

57:58

to Theo and his website.

58:00

And he ended... up at

58:02

the Unikmakers' HQ. And before

58:04

he knew it, Arpi took

58:06

some drugs and allowed himself

58:08

to be tied down in

58:10

the Unikmakers' basement. He had

58:12

made his preferences clear. No

58:14

permanent damage. Arpi's session was

58:16

filmed and put on the

58:18

website, and near the end,

58:20

a needle is stuck into

58:22

his shoulder. Which contained a

58:24

testosterone blocker. Later, Gustafson

58:27

messaged R.P. letting him know how

58:29

much he stood to earn. If

58:31

he changed his preferences. Gustafson would

58:33

give him 5,000 to 7,000 pounds

58:35

if he would have a testicle

58:37

removed. And if R.P. decided to

58:39

have his penis removed. Gustafson would

58:42

pay him between 15 and 25,000

58:44

pounds. And once again, this is

58:46

where we're getting out of the

58:48

realm of Marius Gustafson's claims that

58:50

he is helping these people, because

58:52

now it is showing not only

58:54

is he exploiting people for his

58:57

own benefit financially and also to

58:59

serve a very sexual need for

59:01

himself and the other people watching,

59:03

if you're having to offer people

59:05

five to seven thousand to have

59:07

a testicle removed, they're not coming

59:09

to you organically and saying that's

59:12

what I want done. You're now

59:14

paying for them to undergo permanent

59:16

damage. while you exploit it. Gustavson

59:18

followed up his financial offer, saying

59:20

that he would help RP control

59:22

his hormones and his sex drive,

59:25

and that when it was all

59:27

over, he would feel really empowered.

59:29

Yeah, it's basically like if you

59:31

cut your dick and bulls off,

59:33

it's going to solve all these

59:35

problems for you. It's going to

59:37

control your sex drive, it's going

59:40

to make you feel so much

59:42

better, so much stronger. So yes,

59:44

the double whammy. This is what

59:46

I'm saying it's grooming, it's grooming,

59:48

as well. And

59:50

soon, RP unchecked the no

59:53

permanent damage box. The next

59:55

week plans for... his castration

59:58

began. In his first session,

1:00:00

on the 17th of July

1:00:02

2017, R.P. Scrotum was sliced

1:00:05

open. Then on the 20th

1:00:07

of September, he returned to

1:00:10

the basement flat to be

1:00:12

castrated. R.P. was strapped down

1:00:14

and given drugs. Then Gustafson

1:00:17

went to the wardrobe and

1:00:19

pulled out a huge set

1:00:22

of clamps. Gustafson then masturbated.

1:00:24

Then used the clamps to

1:00:26

crush Arby's testicles. That night

1:00:29

Arby's balls swelled up and

1:00:31

turned purple. Gustavson assured him

1:00:34

this was perfectly normal, but

1:00:36

the pain got worse. On

1:00:38

the 2nd of December 2019,

1:00:41

Arby returned to have his

1:00:43

dead testicles removed. My God!

1:00:45

That's so long! What followed

1:00:48

was a brutal session of

1:00:50

sexual mutilation. culminating in Gustafson

1:00:53

branding RP with an iron.

1:00:55

On his thigh, Gustafson burned

1:00:57

in the letters E.M. for

1:01:00

eunuchmaker. David Carothers, the former

1:01:02

surgical assistant that assisted these

1:01:05

procedures, cut out Arpi's testicle,

1:01:07

before sewing it back in.

1:01:09

It was at that moment

1:01:12

that Arpi realized that it

1:01:14

had all been a lie.

1:01:17

Karathas was nowhere near qualified.

1:01:19

He wasn't even trying. And

1:01:21

Kastavasin wasn't a friendly, like-minded

1:01:24

soul who wanted to help.

1:01:26

He was a butcher. R.P.

1:01:29

was never paid. In a

1:01:31

rage, R.P. called his Kemsex

1:01:33

Councillor, who gave him a

1:01:36

choice. Go to the police,

1:01:38

or I will. R.P. knew

1:01:41

that if he didn't speak

1:01:43

up, any further mutilation would

1:01:45

be on his conscience. So

1:01:48

he went to the police

1:01:50

station and told them every

1:01:53

He handed over a USB

1:01:55

drive containing 5,000 WhatsApp messages

1:01:57

between him, Gustafsson and others,

1:02:00

as well as an audio

1:02:02

recording of an interview. He

1:02:05

told the police that this

1:02:07

man was a lunatic and

1:02:09

he had to be stopped.

1:02:12

An investigation began immediately, and

1:02:14

in March 2021, police raided

1:02:17

Gustafsson's flat and arrested him.

1:02:19

There they found a freezer

1:02:21

full of severed body parts.

1:02:24

In a draw four years

1:02:26

after it had been cut

1:02:29

off, they also found Gustafson's

1:02:31

own penis. Not to be

1:02:33

grotesque. Why stop now with

1:02:36

this episode? Is he making

1:02:38

any effort to preserve these

1:02:41

appendages? Or are they just

1:02:43

rotting in his house? I

1:02:45

don't know. Maybe like, if

1:02:48

you keep them in plastic

1:02:50

bags, keep them in Tupperware,

1:02:53

they're probably just going to

1:02:55

mummify to an extent, but

1:02:57

it is foul. It's foul.

1:03:00

is real bad. Like my

1:03:02

stomach is churning because also

1:03:05

like, obviously we moved out

1:03:07

of the house a while

1:03:09

ago while the renovation was

1:03:12

going on. I didn't realize

1:03:14

they were going to turn

1:03:17

the electricity off and remember

1:03:19

me telling you that I

1:03:21

had left a bunch of

1:03:24

food in the freezer. Went

1:03:26

back last weekend. Finally have

1:03:29

access to the freezer. It

1:03:31

was so bad. I'm struggling.

1:03:33

Let's just keep going. Let's

1:03:36

keep going. So yeah, they

1:03:38

find his penis. They also

1:03:41

found a gigantic stash of

1:03:43

extreme pornography, including images of

1:03:45

humans having intercourse with raping

1:03:48

animals. And also what courts

1:03:50

would call indecent pseudo photographs

1:03:53

of a child. Basically, if

1:03:55

you're wondering what that means,

1:03:57

it's probably like hyper realistic

1:04:00

AI-generated images, rather than like...

1:04:02

actual images of childhood. abuse.

1:04:05

And then investigators found hours

1:04:07

and hours of brutal footage

1:04:09

of castrations, clamping, amputations, and

1:04:12

genital mutilation. Dating back seven

1:04:14

years. And if you think

1:04:17

just listening to all this

1:04:19

has been bad, just remember

1:04:21

that all that footage they

1:04:24

found, someone had to watch

1:04:26

it. All. 67

1:04:29

year old Peter Waits, a

1:04:31

close conspirator, also had his

1:04:33

home raided. A home that

1:04:35

he shared with his dad

1:04:37

in Surrey. And there police

1:04:39

officers uncovered a clover butter

1:04:42

container. It's clovers margarine for

1:04:44

a start. But it's always

1:04:46

like in those boxes that

1:04:48

look harmless that you're going

1:04:50

to find something weird. We've

1:04:52

told people not to look

1:04:54

in barrels before, but it's

1:04:56

like... What weird like things

1:04:58

do families save? Like what

1:05:00

weird boxes do families save

1:05:02

to then keep other things

1:05:04

in? Because if you are

1:05:06

Asian like me, you will

1:05:09

find in every Asian home

1:05:11

a Danish butter biscuit box.

1:05:13

And when you open it,

1:05:15

inside will be a sewing

1:05:17

kit. I guarantee you. Not

1:05:19

what's going on here, but

1:05:21

just don't look. And don't

1:05:23

use margarine, it's disgusting. The

1:05:25

Nazis loved it. They used

1:05:27

to dye it green because

1:05:29

it's so bad for you.

1:05:31

I thought Hitler loved margarine.

1:05:33

No, I'm sure he did,

1:05:35

but like as in like

1:05:38

we as a society. Oh,

1:05:40

I see. When it was

1:05:42

invented, I mean, probably big

1:05:44

butter had something to do

1:05:46

with it. But yeah, they

1:05:48

used to diet like really

1:05:50

horrible colors to like remind

1:05:52

you that it's bad. Weird

1:05:54

marketing. It was propaganda. It

1:05:56

was anti-marged propaganda. And also,

1:05:58

if you've ever tried to

1:06:00

bake cake with margarine, don't

1:06:02

bother my god. Anyway. This

1:06:05

clover container was sealed with

1:06:07

brown tape. and written on

1:06:09

this container were the words.

1:06:11

Peters, unknown, beletti mushrooms, safe,

1:06:13

needs identification, do not defrost.

1:06:15

Forensic pathologists analyzed the mushrooms

1:06:17

they found and rather quickly

1:06:19

confirmed that there were no

1:06:21

mushrooms at all. Actually, what

1:06:23

was being hidden in the

1:06:25

clover container was a human

1:06:27

scrotum. And two severed penises.

1:06:31

That's a lot to fit

1:06:33

in a clover box. Over

1:06:35

the following year, police identified

1:06:37

and charged nine more accomplices

1:06:40

across the country, most of

1:06:42

whom had no previous convictions

1:06:44

for anything at all, not

1:06:47

even a cheeky fraud. In

1:06:49

2023, preliminary hearings began. Over

1:06:51

four years, Gustafson had been

1:06:53

involved with at least 30

1:06:56

procedures that the courts could

1:06:58

identify, though it was impossible

1:07:00

to know the full scale

1:07:02

of his actual offending. That

1:07:05

included, as we said, one

1:07:07

attack on a 16-year-old boy.

1:07:09

It was also revealed that

1:07:12

Gustafson had made over 300,000

1:07:14

pounds from his website, unitmaker.com.

1:07:16

He was presented in call.

1:07:18

as the ringleader of an

1:07:21

enterprise that involved performing surgery

1:07:23

in non-sterile conditions and without

1:07:25

medical training, leaving victims with

1:07:28

irreversible and life-changing injuries. Overseeing

1:07:30

these proceedings was Mark LaCraft,

1:07:32

Casey. And if that name

1:07:34

sounds familiar, well we have

1:07:37

met him before. He's the

1:07:39

recorder of London at the

1:07:41

Old Bailey and the most

1:07:43

senior criminal judge in the

1:07:46

country. And he also tried,

1:07:48

Constance Martin Martin Martin. And

1:07:50

in our opinion he did

1:07:53

a great job there. So,

1:07:55

he's definitely a very safe

1:07:57

pair of hands. In

1:08:00

preliminary hearings, Gustafson claimed that

1:08:03

all of his victims had

1:08:05

consented. Which has previously discussed.

1:08:07

Trickey, tricky line to tread.

1:08:09

So let's have a quick

1:08:11

look about what the law

1:08:13

says. Firstly and most relevantly,

1:08:15

under the Domestic Abuse Act

1:08:17

of 2021, a person cannot

1:08:20

legally consent to being seriously

1:08:22

harmed for sexual gratification. And

1:08:24

then, there's the infamous. There's

1:08:26

the infamous. Dr. Evil case.

1:08:28

Dr. Evil is the pseudonym

1:08:30

of Brendan McCarthy, a body

1:08:32

modification expert from Wolverhampton who

1:08:35

specializes in splitting people's tongues,

1:08:37

scarification, piercings wherever you want

1:08:39

them, all that sort of

1:08:41

stuff. And I know we're

1:08:43

talking about him in the

1:08:45

context of the unique maker

1:08:47

episode, but we should say

1:08:49

he is not cut from

1:08:52

the same cloth. Brenda McCarthy

1:08:54

is a step-up from... a

1:08:56

regular piercer. I do not

1:08:58

think you can call him

1:09:00

a butcher. One day someone

1:09:02

walked into his shop and

1:09:04

asked him to remove their

1:09:06

nipple and after a series

1:09:09

of safeguarding procedures multiple forms

1:09:11

and several lengthy conversations McCarthy

1:09:13

was assured that both of

1:09:15

them were comfortable with what

1:09:17

was going to happen and

1:09:19

then they did it. But

1:09:21

then a TV production company

1:09:24

contacted the police. And soon

1:09:26

McCarthy found himself charged with

1:09:28

three counts of Section 18,

1:09:30

malicious wounding with intent with

1:09:32

a blade. And he was

1:09:34

charged on account of the

1:09:36

nipple removal, tongue splitting, and

1:09:38

also removing parts of an

1:09:41

ear. The people who underwent

1:09:43

these procedures hadn't changed their

1:09:45

mind since. So this is

1:09:47

all about interpretation of the

1:09:49

law. Specifically, an ancient consent

1:09:51

law. says a person cannot

1:09:53

consent to harm. McCarthy was

1:09:55

sentenced to 60 months in

1:09:58

prison. He did 40. So

1:10:00

there's a massive gulf here.

1:10:02

Firstly what McCarthy does is

1:10:04

safe, sterile and has all

1:10:06

the right aftercare systems in

1:10:08

place. And secondly, he's not

1:10:10

masturbating along, filming it and

1:10:12

then selling the videos online.

1:10:15

But what it does illustrate

1:10:17

is a precedent of severe

1:10:19

punishments for body modification procedures.

1:10:21

even fully consensual and safe

1:10:23

ones, and also the blurred

1:10:25

line when it comes to

1:10:27

consent and harm. Because of

1:10:30

all this legal precedent, it

1:10:32

was clear a guilty plea

1:10:34

was the only option, when

1:10:36

we're talking about Marius Gustafson,

1:10:38

even to him. So Gustafson

1:10:40

skipped the trial, and he

1:10:42

pleaded guilty to the following.

1:10:44

Conspiracy to commit grievous bodily

1:10:47

harm, five counts of causing

1:10:49

grievous bodily harm with intent,

1:10:51

possessing criminal property, namely money.

1:10:53

possessing extreme pornographic images and

1:10:55

making and distributing two indecent

1:10:57

videos of a child. And

1:10:59

having very little to work

1:11:01

with, Gustafson's defence barrister, who's

1:11:04

got a very long name

1:11:06

that I'm going to butcher,

1:11:08

Rashvinda Jit Panasar, was very

1:11:10

focused on consent because let's

1:11:12

face it he doesn't really

1:11:14

have anywhere else to go,

1:11:16

and his main point was

1:11:18

that many of the surgeries

1:11:21

had been performed solely for

1:11:23

the psychological benefit. of the

1:11:25

victims. And he actually said

1:11:27

that Gustafson's aim was to

1:11:29

put a smile on other

1:11:31

people's faces. Panasad described the

1:11:33

breakup of Gustafson's marriage and

1:11:36

its effect on his mental

1:11:38

state saying this. His modification

1:11:40

led him to feelings of

1:11:42

empowerment. It appears at face

1:11:44

value to be something that's

1:11:46

become an addiction for him.

1:11:48

He described Gustafson as being

1:11:50

stuck in a body, he

1:11:53

wanted to harm and change.

1:11:55

And he knew that other

1:11:57

people felt the same way.

1:11:59

The prosecution, Caroline Carvery Casey.

1:12:01

said that it was remarkable

1:12:03

that the UNIC maker website,

1:12:05

quote, operated in plain sight,

1:12:07

not on the dark web,

1:12:10

accessible to anyone who stumbled

1:12:12

upon it, and had the

1:12:14

inclination and means to pay

1:12:16

to view the gruesome footage.

1:12:18

She called Gustafson an arch

1:12:20

manipulator of victims, saying that

1:12:22

although those people had consented,

1:12:24

they had all been vulnerable

1:12:27

to Gustafson's exploitation. R.P.

1:12:29

the victim who turned Gustafsson

1:12:31

into the police read his

1:12:34

victim impact statement to the

1:12:36

court. He described being tied

1:12:38

to the table and realising

1:12:40

what was happening. He'd been

1:12:42

apoplectic with rage and he'd

1:12:44

wanted to kill Gustafsson. He

1:12:46

said this, after the barbaric

1:12:48

encounters, if I think about

1:12:51

them too long I can

1:12:53

still feel the physical pain.

1:12:55

And R.P. described the unit

1:12:57

maker's cult-like atmosphere. And he

1:12:59

said that Gustafson had the

1:13:01

ability to mesmerise his followers.

1:13:03

And indeed many of those

1:13:06

followers, mesmerised or otherwise, joined

1:13:08

Gustafson in the dock. Ten

1:13:10

people were charged in all,

1:13:12

including Romanian National, Ion Sicker,

1:13:14

who was 30, and German

1:13:16

Stefan Shuff, 61, former surgical

1:13:18

assistant David Carothers, and his

1:13:21

boyfriend Ashley Williams. and also

1:13:23

a 39-year-old man, Janis Akkin.

1:13:25

Peter Waits, owner of the

1:13:27

clover butter dish... Marguerite! There

1:13:29

he had kept in his

1:13:31

dad's freezer that was filled

1:13:33

with fucking penicism, whatever, pleaded

1:13:35

guilty to being involved in

1:13:38

nine mutilations. Carothers was described

1:13:40

by the court, as Gustafson's

1:13:42

right-hand man, and took part

1:13:44

in the buying and selling

1:13:46

of body parts. He was

1:13:48

sentenced to 12 years in

1:13:50

prison. Nathaniel Arnold. The nurse

1:13:53

who cut off Gustavsin's nipple

1:13:55

also pleaded guilty. to stealing,

1:13:57

referring to the hospital supplies,

1:13:59

illegal surgery, and possessing extreme

1:14:01

pornography, described by the court

1:14:03

as graphic and appalling. Arnold

1:14:05

told the court that he

1:14:08

had been in a grip

1:14:10

of hypermania brought on by

1:14:12

bipolar disorder. And his defence

1:14:14

team described him as a

1:14:16

compassionate, gentle, mild-mannered, and respectful

1:14:18

nurse, who was most unlikely

1:14:20

ever again to engage in

1:14:22

fantasies and the behaviour that

1:14:25

he was prone to four

1:14:27

years ago. Arnold

1:14:29

was given a two-year suspended

1:14:31

sentence, a hundred hours of

1:14:33

unpaid work, and a 60-day

1:14:35

rehab requirement for addiction issues.

1:14:37

And while the rest of

1:14:39

them all pleaded guilty to

1:14:41

various GBH offences, and most

1:14:43

did get present time. Gustafson

1:14:45

attended his own sentencing via

1:14:47

video link from HMP Wansworth,

1:14:49

who are certainly familiar with

1:14:51

the old sexy video. And

1:14:53

as he did, the court

1:14:55

was shown photographic and audio

1:14:57

evidence of... dozens of procedures,

1:14:59

images of Marius posing with

1:15:01

a severed penis, putting it

1:15:03

in his mouth even, images

1:15:05

of him rustling up his

1:15:07

nutty salad and recordings of

1:15:10

him encouraging people to remove

1:15:12

their penises, or rather to

1:15:14

let him do it for

1:15:16

them. In his sentencing remarks,

1:15:18

Judge Mark Leucraft reminded the

1:15:20

court that the procedures almost

1:15:22

led to the deaths of

1:15:24

three men. and

1:15:26

they amounted to a little

1:15:28

short of human butchery. I

1:15:30

don't know what the short

1:15:32

bit is. Judge Leucraft also

1:15:34

acknowledged that those involved consented,

1:15:36

but, and this is a

1:15:38

quote, as the law in

1:15:41

this country makes clear, consent

1:15:43

is not a defence to

1:15:45

what took place. Whilst it

1:15:47

might provide some mitigation to

1:15:49

sentence, The performing of complex

1:15:51

medical procedures on such people

1:15:53

by the unqualified is extremely

1:15:55

dangerous. Many may well face

1:15:57

lifelong... issues and I think

1:16:00

that's the thing that's important

1:16:02

and obviously law is specific

1:16:04

to the land in which

1:16:06

you are. It doesn't matter

1:16:08

whether they consented or not

1:16:10

in the end. I like

1:16:12

I don't want to sound

1:16:14

like flippant but I'm like

1:16:16

I don't care. Consent requires

1:16:18

you to have full knowledge

1:16:21

of what you're consenting to

1:16:23

and also the faculties under

1:16:25

which to make that consent

1:16:27

valid. The exploitation of these

1:16:29

people, how vulnerable they were,

1:16:31

the damage that was done,

1:16:33

how permanent it is, the

1:16:35

risk that were taken. No.

1:16:37

Prison. And Judge Lukraft agrees

1:16:40

with us. He concluded his

1:16:42

closing remarks by saying that

1:16:44

Gustafson's motivations were his own

1:16:46

sexual gratification and financial gain.

1:16:48

Gustafson was sentenced to life

1:16:50

in prison and ordered to

1:16:52

serve a minimum term of

1:16:54

22 years. And that,

1:16:56

my friends, is longer than most

1:16:59

murderers get. But... As Kate Mulholland

1:17:01

from the Crown Prosecution Service put

1:17:04

it, the severity of today's sentence

1:17:06

should act as a warning to

1:17:08

others, that performing extreme body modifications

1:17:11

is against the law, and the

1:17:13

CPS won't hesitate to prosecute these

1:17:16

horrendous cases. And though Gustavson had

1:17:18

pleaded guilty, he insisted, and still

1:17:20

insist to this day, that he

1:17:23

did nothing wrong. In a pattern

1:17:25

that goes all the way back

1:17:27

to his role in the Roos

1:17:30

celebrations at his high school, and

1:17:32

his leading role in gay advocacy

1:17:35

groups, Gustavson always derived his self-worth

1:17:37

from leading a community. And when

1:17:39

the focus shifted to something darker,

1:17:42

something closer to his own deep

1:17:44

desires, he couldn't get enough. Those

1:17:47

early feelings of loneliness and inadequacy

1:17:49

fueled a relentless desire to control

1:17:51

and manipulate others. And by undergoing

1:17:54

the procedure himself, he acted as

1:17:56

his own proof to others, that

1:17:59

it was a safe, normal, self-affirming.

1:18:01

to do. He prayed on those

1:18:03

with deep psychological vulnerabilities, those with

1:18:06

nowhere else to go, and he

1:18:08

showed them a way out. All

1:18:10

while, he wanked off and laughed

1:18:13

all the way to the bank.

1:18:15

The investigation into the wider UNIC

1:18:18

Maker Network is ongoing still. Some

1:18:20

reports say that the site featured

1:18:22

videos of more than 500 different

1:18:25

people undergoing a nullification procedure of

1:18:27

some sort. The web

1:18:30

of connections spreads all across

1:18:32

the world, but it's just

1:18:34

one step forward and two

1:18:36

steps back. At the end

1:18:38

of last year, barristers for

1:18:40

all six sentence men asked

1:18:42

the courts for a permission

1:18:45

to appeal, and three senior

1:18:47

judges approved that request. All

1:18:49

admitting that the case was

1:18:51

highly unusual, and that it

1:18:53

may be the wrong decision

1:18:55

to use sentencing guidelines for

1:18:57

GBH with intent in a

1:19:00

case like this. because GBH,

1:19:02

by definition, under the law,

1:19:04

is a non-concentral offense. And

1:19:06

the barristers for the sentenced

1:19:08

men also argued that the

1:19:10

judge, quote, did not give

1:19:12

sufficient weight to the fact

1:19:15

that almost all the victims

1:19:17

appeared to have been content

1:19:19

with the outcome of the

1:19:21

body modifications that they underwent.

1:19:23

And as uncomfortable as it

1:19:25

is to admit, that's true.

1:19:29

Most, not all, most of

1:19:31

Gustafson's victims wanted the procedure

1:19:33

that they had carried out

1:19:35

and they are still glad

1:19:37

that they had it done.

1:19:39

But it's irrelevant isn't it

1:19:41

because the issues are grooming,

1:19:43

encouragement, clear sexual and financial

1:19:45

gain and that makes Gustafson

1:19:47

absolutely guilty. Yeah. Well, fuck

1:19:49

me. But before we go

1:19:51

and... Be quiet. I am

1:19:53

so glad I am not

1:19:55

recording this in South Africa

1:19:57

with a lone sound engineer

1:19:59

listening. Oh my god. I

1:20:01

don't think we should put

1:20:03

this episode out. I don't

1:20:05

think anyone should hear what

1:20:07

we've just said. But we

1:20:09

have to ask one more

1:20:11

question before we let you

1:20:13

go. No. We cast our

1:20:15

minds back to Dr. Evil.

1:20:17

Where is the line? If

1:20:19

someone... in their right mind

1:20:22

once a procedure carried out

1:20:24

on them. And it happens

1:20:26

and they're happy with the

1:20:28

result. Where does that become

1:20:30

an assault? When does that

1:20:32

happen? I feel like an

1:20:34

hour and a half ago

1:20:36

I could have eloquently argued

1:20:38

the difference. Now my brain

1:20:40

has turned into a puddle

1:20:42

of margarine mush. Do you

1:20:44

know what I think it

1:20:46

is? That specifically, Dr. Evil.

1:20:48

Yes. And maybe I'm being...

1:20:50

naive and missing the point.

1:20:52

But having your nipple taken

1:20:54

off as a bloke, right,

1:20:56

or having a bit of

1:20:58

your ear taken off, or

1:21:00

your tongue split, the chances

1:21:02

of long-lasting negative impact of

1:21:04

those things are slim to

1:21:06

none. Yes, okay. And I'll

1:21:08

follow on from that point.

1:21:10

It's functionality. It's a disruption

1:21:12

of functionality, right? You splitting

1:21:14

your tongue might give you

1:21:16

a bit of a list.

1:21:18

Don't know what it might

1:21:20

do. See the way in

1:21:22

which you speak, it's not

1:21:25

going to permanently... change anything

1:21:27

in a way that affects

1:21:29

your life to a massive

1:21:31

degree if that's the decision

1:21:33

you took. Things like sexual

1:21:35

organ removal, cutting off your

1:21:37

leg, functional impact to your

1:21:39

body and therefore the quality

1:21:41

of your life in a

1:21:43

way that you may be

1:21:45

at that point unable to

1:21:47

comprehend into the future, especially

1:21:49

if you are particularly vulnerable

1:21:51

as many of these people

1:21:53

clearly were. And then throw

1:21:55

on top of that the

1:21:57

sexual element and the financial

1:21:59

gain. Yeah, I

1:22:01

think it's the functionality that is

1:22:03

the key difference for me. And

1:22:06

also, he should a fucking guy

1:22:08

in a basement. Yeah. I feel

1:22:10

sick. Right, well our padtie is

1:22:12

nearly here, should we go eat

1:22:15

that? Oh my God. That was

1:22:17

awful. I think, I've got to

1:22:19

say, I think that is the

1:22:22

episode that has made me feel

1:22:24

the most sick in the last

1:22:26

eight years of doing this show.

1:22:28

I think I'm with you on

1:22:31

that. And you're not a squeamish

1:22:33

person. No I'm not. So I

1:22:35

don't know if anyone's listening now.

1:22:38

So, whatever. That was awful, truly

1:22:40

awful. Right. That's it guys. That

1:22:42

is the fucking Munich Maker, piece

1:22:44

of shit, Marius Gustafson. If you

1:22:47

want to go watch the documentary,

1:22:49

it is on Amazon Prime. And

1:22:51

we'll see you next week, where

1:22:54

we'll talk about anything other than

1:22:56

pnectomies. And I'm going to go

1:22:58

back to... 2018 and tell myself

1:23:00

to move the fuck out of

1:23:03

that house. Please do. Goodbye. Bye.

1:23:23

You know those creepy stories that

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Mysteries on the Wonderie app or

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can listen early and ad-free right

1:24:15

now by joining Wonderie Plus in

1:24:17

the Wonderie app or on Spotify

1:24:19

or Apple podcasts. In the early

1:24:22

hours of December 4th, 2024, CEO

1:24:24

Brian Thompson stepped out onto the

1:24:26

streets of Midtown Manhattan. This assailant

1:24:28

pulls out a weapon and starts

1:24:30

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1:24:32

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health insurance corporation in the world.

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And the suspect, he has been

1:24:39

identified as Luigi Nicholas Mangioni, became

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Listen to Law and Crimes Luigi

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