0:00

Trust Trust isn't just

0:02

earned, it's demanded. Whether you're a

0:05

startup founder navigating your first audit

0:07

or a seasoned security professional scaling

0:09

your GRC program, proving your commitment

0:12

to security has never been more

0:14

critical or more complex. That's where

0:16

Vanta comes in. Businesses use Vanta

0:18

to establish trust by automating compliance

0:20

needs across over 35 frameworks like

0:23

SOC 2 and ISO 2701, centralized

0:25

security workflows, complete questionnaires up to

0:27

five times faster, and proactively manage

0:29

vendor risk. Vanta not only saves

0:31

you time, it can also save

0:34

you money. A new IDC white

0:36

paper found that Vanta customers achieved

0:38

$535,000 per year in benefits, and

0:40

the platform pays for itself in

0:42

just three months. Join over 9,000

0:45

global global companies like a. At

0:47

Lassian, Cora, and Factory who use

0:49

Vanta to manage risk and

0:51

prove security in real time.

0:54

For a limited time, get

0:56

$1,000 off Vanta at vanta.com/TED

0:58

audio. That's va-n-t-a.com/TED audio for

1:00

$1,000 off. Gift. Are you still quoting

1:03

30-year-old movies? Have you said cool

1:05

beans in the past 90 days?

1:07

Do you still think Discover isn't

1:09

widely accepted? If this sounds like

1:11

you, you're stuck in the past.

1:13

Discover is accepted at 99% of

1:16

places that take credit cards nationwide.

1:18

And every time you make a

1:20

purchase with your card, you automatically

1:22

earn cash back. Welcome to the

1:25

Now. It pays to Discover. Learn

1:27

more at discover.com/Credit card. based on

1:29

the February 2024 Nielsen report. Mom's

1:33

deserve our very best, especially

1:35

on Mother's Day. There's only

1:37

one place I trust to

1:39

deliver high-quality, mom-approved rose bouquets,

1:42

1800flowers.com. This year,

1:44

1800flowers wants to make sure all

1:46

the mothers in your life get

1:48

the best, with double the roses

1:51

for free. When you buy one

1:53

dozen, they'll double your bouquet to

1:55

two dozen roses. To claim the

1:58

double roses offer, go to 1800flowers.com/Acast.

2:00

The official florist of Mother's Day.

2:05

When my wife Allison and I became parents,

2:07

one of the first gifts we got was

2:09

the classic book, The Giving Tree. We

2:11

remembered it having a meaningful message about

2:13

generosity. But when we re -read

2:15

it, we found it disturbing. And

2:18

we weren't alone. It was desperately

2:20

sad. Meet Tofer Payne.

2:22

I am a playwright

2:24

and teacher in Atlanta. I

2:27

think of you as like

2:29

the ultimate repairman for broken children's

2:31

books. I'll

2:33

absolutely take that. One

2:36

of Tofer's projects is writing new endings

2:38

for classic children's books. In

2:40

2020, he picked up the giving tree for

2:42

the first time since childhood. To

2:44

refresh your memory, here's the gist. Once

2:47

there was a tree and the tree

2:49

loved the boy, and every day the

2:51

little boy would come and play in

2:53

the tree's branches, and they had a

2:55

marvelous friendship. But as the boy

2:57

grows up, he starts asking for

2:59

things. And the tree always says yes.

3:01

First, it's apples. Eventually,

3:03

it's wood to build a house. And

3:05

the tree gives her branches, which do

3:08

grow back, but they grow back so

3:10

much slower. But she

3:12

gives them up because she loves the boy.

3:14

And then he wants to build a boat

3:16

and so on and so on until

3:18

the tree is nothing but a sad

3:20

little stump, and there is nothing left

3:22

of her. And the boy comes back

3:24

as an old man, and she has

3:26

nothing left to give, and he sits

3:28

on her. The end.

3:33

For me, the

3:35

most fucked up part of the story

3:37

is the ending, where the

3:39

tree is reduced to a literal stump,

3:42

and it says, and the tree was

3:44

happy. Like, what the

3:46

hell are you talking about? The tree isn't happy,

3:48

the tree hardly exists anymore. No!

3:51

You know, the most common hot

3:53

take that I hear on the

3:55

story is that it is an

3:57

allegory for maternal. love. You

3:59

just give everything that you have

4:01

to your child and then

4:03

you see them thriving and

4:05

they are so happy. And

4:08

the two things that I want

4:11

to say to that are one,

4:13

no, that's not how motherhood should work. And

4:16

two, the boy

4:18

is not happy. There

4:20

is nothing in the story.

4:23

that indicates that this

4:25

behavior results in the boy

4:27

being happy. The

4:29

boy always comes back

4:31

seeking more and doesn't understand

4:33

why he doesn't feel

4:35

fulfilled. It's exactly right. I

4:38

mean, the boy is a huge

4:40

taker, the worst, and

4:45

I don't even know... People saying

4:47

this is an allegory from maternal

4:49

love. No, it's an allegory

4:51

for an abusive relationship. Yes. This

4:54

notion of give till it

4:56

hurts. No, sometimes

4:58

pain is a sensor

5:00

telling you to stop something.

5:03

And so don't give till it hurts

5:05

and certainly don't give past hurting.

5:07

And the tree does. Well

5:09

said. The tree

5:11

has confused giving

5:13

with self -sacrifice. And

5:17

it almost seems like the

5:19

tree is the most extreme people

5:21

-pleaser you could possibly imagine. I'm

5:23

going to neglect whatever my

5:26

own needs are in order to

5:28

say yes to whatever this

5:30

boy asks for. And then you

5:32

will believe how much I

5:34

love you. The

5:37

giving tree illustrates a familiar problem

5:39

in life and at work. The

5:41

temptation to say yes to everyone

5:43

and everything. We think

5:45

it makes us likable and promotable. But

5:47

if you want to build balanced relationships

5:49

and achieve your goals, you need to

5:52

master the art of saying no. I'm

6:01

Adam Grant, and this is WorkLife, my

6:03

podcast with Ted. I'm an

6:05

organizational psychologist. I study how to

6:07

make work not suck. In

6:10

this show, we explore how to unlock

6:12

the potential in people and workplaces. Today,

6:15

why it's so hard to say no and

6:17

how we can get better at setting boundaries. This

6:32

episode is sponsored by Mint Mobile. Do

6:35

you say data or data? Either

6:37

way, for a long time, I assumed paying

6:39

a lot for my monthly data plan was

6:41

just the cost of staying connected. But then

6:43

I found out about Mint Mobile and realized

6:45

it doesn't have to be that way. Mint

6:48

Mobile offers premium wireless service starting

6:50

at just $15 a month. All

6:52

their plans come with high -speed data

6:54

and unlimited talk and text on the

6:56

nation's largest 5G network. And you

6:58

can use your own phone with any plan

7:00

and keep your number in contacts. Why

7:03

pay more for the same service?

7:05

No matter how you say it,

7:07

don't overpay for it. Shop data

7:09

plans at mintmobile.com slash rethinking. That's

7:11

mintmobile.com slash rethinking. Upfront payment of

7:13

$45 for three month five gigabyte

7:15

plan required, equivalent $15 per month.

7:18

New customer offer for first three

7:20

months only, then full price plan

7:22

options available. Taxes and fees

7:24

extra. See Mint Mobile for details. This

7:29

episode is sponsored by Lumen. Think about

7:31

your metabolism as your body's engine. It's

7:33

how your body turns the food you

7:35

eat into fuel that keeps you going.

7:38

When your metabolism works well, you feel

7:40

it in your energy, sleep, and

7:42

even how you recover from a workout.

7:44

And Lumen is the world's first

7:46

metabolic coach that gives you real time

7:48

insights into your body's metabolism. You

7:50

just breathe into the device first thing

7:52

in the morning, and it helps

7:54

you understand if you're mainly burning fats

7:56

or carbs. Then the app gives

7:58

you a personalized nutrition plan for the

8:01

day based on what your body

8:03

actually The warmer months are coming, spring

8:05

back into your health and fitness,

8:07

go to lumen.com slash rethinking to get

8:09

15 % off your lumen. That's L

8:11

-U -M -E -N dot me slash rethinking

8:13

for 15 % off your purchase. Thank

8:15

you, Lumen, for sponsoring this episode. Trust

8:22

isn't just earned, it's demanded. Whether

8:25

you're a startup founder navigating your

8:27

first audit or a seasoned security

8:29

professional scaling your GRC program, proving

8:32

your commitment to security has never

8:34

been more critical or more complex.

8:36

That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses

8:38

use Vanta to establish trust by

8:40

automating compliance needs across over 35

8:43

frameworks like SOC 2 and ISO

8:45

2701, centralized security workflows, complete questionnaires

8:47

up to five times faster, and

8:49

proactively manage vendor risk. Vanta not

8:51

only saves you time, it can

8:54

also save you money. A new

8:56

IDC white paper found that Vanta

8:58

customers achieved $535,000 per year in

9:00

benefits, and the platform pays for

9:02

itself in just three months. Join

9:05

over 9,000 global global companies like

9:07

a. At Lassian, Cora, and Factory

9:09

who use Vanta to manage

9:11

risk and prove security in

9:14

real time. For a limited

9:16

time, get $1,000 off Vanta

9:18

at vanta.com/TED audio. That's va-n-t-a.com/TED

9:21

audio for $1,000 off. For

9:27

a long time, I was a people

9:29

pleaser. I bent over backward to

9:32

say yes to as many people and as many

9:34

requests as I could. I thought that

9:36

was core to being a kind, giving person, but

9:38

I was overextending myself. I

9:40

knew it was bad when I started

9:42

wondering if I needed to schedule calls with

9:45

my friends because I was too busy

9:47

helping randos. Then I read research

9:49

suggesting that the root of chronic people -pleasing

9:51

is not concern for others. It's

9:53

concern for their approval. In

9:56

other words, it's not about them. It's

9:58

about you. I

10:01

wasn't going overboard for others because I

10:03

cared too much about them. I

10:05

was doing it because I cared too much

10:07

about their opinions of me. I

10:10

said yes because I wanted them to like

10:12

me and accept me. It probably

10:14

started as a solution to being bullied

10:16

in elementary school, but it had created

10:18

a new problem. I'd come to

10:20

rely on others for self -esteem. I

10:22

craved their validation, so I was

10:24

putting them above myself. The

10:27

evidence is clear. Not only

10:29

is that a path to emotional exhaustion, it

10:31

doesn't actually build strong connections. It

10:34

creates one -sided relationships where we

10:36

feel used instead of supported. And

10:38

at work, It can undermine rather

10:40

than advance our progress. I

10:43

needed to learn to say no. But

10:45

just saying no is not as easy

10:47

as it sounds. No is

10:49

a complete sentence is my

10:51

least favorite expression in all

10:53

of like the self -help

10:55

literature. It drives me insane. Vanessa

10:58

Bonds is a professor of organizational behavior

11:00

at Cornell and the author of You

11:02

Have More Influence Than You Think. She's

11:05

an expert on the psychology of saying

11:07

no. The thing that's

11:09

funniest to me is like, yes, is a

11:11

complete sentence. So like, if

11:13

you imagine someone asking you for something

11:15

and you just say, sure, or yes,

11:17

I'd be happy to, right? Like, all

11:20

that's, you don't need any justification. You

11:22

don't need to explain why you said

11:24

yes. But I don't know anyone

11:26

who feels comfortable just saying no,

11:28

without any explanation or kind of,

11:30

you know, way of

11:32

placating the other person. She

11:36

has a long history of people

11:39

pleasing. Definitely. I'm such a people

11:41

pleaser. It's, yeah. Are you

11:43

just saying that to please me right

11:45

now? I guess that's the best test

11:47

of a people pleaser. Are you a people

11:49

pleaser? And the people pleasers just say yes. In

11:52

one of her early studies, Vanessa investigated

11:54

whether people say yes to requests more

11:56

often than we realized. She

11:58

asked people in New York City to guess

12:00

the odds that strangers would agree to onerous

12:02

requests, like walking them to

12:04

a destination they couldn't find, or even

12:06

borrowing their cell phone. Then

12:09

she sent them out to actually make those

12:11

requests. Even New

12:13

Yorkers said yes a lot more than expected.

12:16

Nearly half agreed to walk people to

12:18

their destinations, and nearly half

12:20

handed over their cell phones. Across

12:22

all these different requests. It

12:24

was typically about twice as likely

12:26

for people to agree to these

12:28

requests as our participants expected. So

12:31

why do we say yes so often? Even

12:33

to questionable requests from total

12:36

strangers. One of the

12:38

best ways I think about a request

12:40

is it's essentially someone sort of

12:42

reaching their hand out to another person.

12:44

So it's like, I'm extending my

12:46

hand and asking for your help. Or

12:48

it's, I'm extending my hand and

12:50

asking you for a date. or

12:53

I'm extending my hand and asking

12:55

you to join me in this unethical

12:57

pursuit. But whatever it is, it's

12:59

like I'm extending my hand and asking

13:01

you to cooperate with me. And

13:03

if you don't take my hand, if you

13:05

say no, if you reject me, you are not

13:07

being cooperative. And

13:09

everything and our being from how

13:11

we've evolved to how we've

13:13

been socialized tells us that we're

13:15

supposed to cooperate with other

13:18

people. And so when

13:20

we say no, we're

13:22

potentially risking damaging our reputation

13:24

and looking like uncooperative

13:26

people. We're potentially damaging our

13:28

relationship with that person. And

13:31

then there's also this risk

13:33

of sort of tangible repercussions, right?

13:35

It's possible that this person won't reciprocate

13:37

down the line. It's even possible that

13:40

they'll get aggressive with us because they're

13:42

upset. So there's just so

13:44

many risks, many of them social,

13:46

but some of them even instrumental,

13:48

involved in saying no. Especially

13:50

at work, where pay and promotions often

13:52

seem to be riding on saying yes.

13:55

Surprisingly, we often feel extra pressure

13:57

with more distant colleagues. It's

13:59

called the acquaintance trap. With

14:02

people close to you, your relationship is secure,

14:04

so you don't need to worry as much

14:06

about declining. With strangers,

14:08

there's no relationship, so there's not as

14:10

much pressure to uphold a reputation. But

14:13

with acquaintances, relationships are just

14:15

uncertain enough that you feel like you

14:17

can't say no, because you want them

14:19

to like you. And for

14:21

certain groups, these pressures are

14:23

magnified. are

14:26

socialized to be communal

14:28

and cooperative. And

14:30

so when we say no, when we essentially

14:32

say, no, I'm not going to cooperate, right?

14:35

First of all, we aren't living up

14:37

to the expectations that we've been socialized to

14:39

have that we're supposed to be communal

14:41

and cooperative. And so we feel bad about

14:43

ourselves. We also are

14:45

often punished reputationally because we're

14:47

not conforming to the stereotype

14:50

of women being communal and

14:52

cooperative. And so people kind

14:54

of see us as less

14:56

warm. They may, you

14:58

know, have sort of a negative impression

15:00

of us if we say no, because

15:02

it doesn't fit what they're expecting us

15:04

to say. I

15:07

think I was known as like the

15:09

nice growing class, which as an adult I

15:11

look back on and I'm like, hmm,

15:13

what does that really mean? What does being

15:15

nice really mean? Sherry Liu

15:17

is a content creator and the founder

15:19

of the eldest daughter club. an online

15:22

community for eldest daughters. She's

15:24

also a fellow recovering people pleaser.

15:27

This impulse started as a kid when she really

15:29

wanted to be liked. And so

15:31

I think part of being like though, if you

15:33

just want everyone to like you, you can't really

15:35

take too much risks. Like one thing

15:37

you can't really say no, someone asked

15:39

you for something. What kinds of things would

15:41

you say yes to? people

15:43

would ask me for help on homework,

15:45

people would ask me for help on

15:48

school projects, and I was happy to

15:50

say yes and help on those things,

15:52

but it was not really coming out

15:54

of a place I feel like where

15:56

I was like, oh, I genuinely feel

15:58

like I want to help. It was

16:00

that, like, I want to make others

16:02

happy, but I'm also so scared to

16:04

say no, because what if you're unhappy

16:06

with me? These experiences

16:08

led Sherry to create her community of

16:11

eldest daughters. They live in

16:13

the center of a Venn diagram of

16:15

people pleasing pressure. They're female,

16:17

and they often take on parenting responsibilities

16:19

at a young age. My little sister

16:21

is seven years younger, and when your

16:23

little sister or little sibling has a

16:25

significant age gap, you don't grow up

16:27

as peers. Your little sibling's like

16:29

looking up to you, and so the

16:32

eldest daughter part I think of people pleasing

16:34

comes in when you feel like your

16:36

actions are just more than your own, and

16:38

it has this trickle -down effect to your

16:40

little sibling. Sherry's cultural background

16:42

also plays into this. So

16:44

I'm the eldest daughter of an

16:46

immigrant family meaning I was born

16:48

here but my parents immigrated from

16:51

China and so they brought a

16:53

different culture in raising and I

16:55

think like Just in generally Asian

16:57

cultures, it's more collectivist than the

16:59

Western culture. You're really cognizant of

17:01

authority and you want to make

17:04

sure, like, authority being like your

17:06

parents or your bosses. And

17:08

that goes hand in hand with respect.

17:10

And you want to make sure everyone around

17:12

you is comfortable and you're always anticipating

17:14

other people's needs. This proved to be

17:16

a challenge at the beginning of her career. People

17:19

think... I am not only an

17:21

Asian woman but also like short and

17:23

stature that I'm just gonna say

17:25

yes to everything and they expect me

17:27

to in a way that I

17:29

think they don't expect my other colleagues

17:32

and so When I started my

17:34

first job, I knew that for me

17:36

to be successful in corporate America,

17:38

I can't be saying yes to everything

17:40

because I need to make sure

17:42

I get promoted and I can't be

17:44

promoted if I'm doing a secretarial

17:46

work 100 % of the time or

17:48

the work that nobody wants to do

17:50

and gives it to me and

17:52

the work that has no impact. And

17:55

so in the workplace, I was like,

17:57

okay, like I myself am trying like

17:59

my best to not people please and

18:01

stand up for myself about the same

18:03

time. I had to experience this additional

18:05

challenge of people just thinking like, oh,

18:07

this is someone who is going to say yes to

18:10

everything we ask. Research shows

18:12

that, unfortunately, helping at work is

18:14

less optional for women than men. Women

18:16

are asked to do the lion's

18:18

share of the office housework, taking notes

18:21

in meetings, planning events. They

18:23

face more pressure to say yes, but

18:25

get less credit. It's taken for

18:27

granted. She's warm and caring. She

18:29

wants to help. When a

18:31

man helps, it's rewarded. I

18:34

never would have expected him to care

18:36

about another person. What a great guy. If

18:39

he declines, he gets a pass,

18:41

but a woman faces a penalty. Saying

18:44

no violates the unfair expectation for

18:46

women to be other -oriented. And

18:49

these dynamics are often heightened for women

18:51

of color. So even though

18:53

Sherry knew this might be a risk going

18:55

into her job, she still wound up saying

18:57

yes too often. That is

18:59

until she got a new manager and

19:01

I was telling her I was

19:03

like I've worked so hard this year

19:05

I've been working towards a promotion

19:08

like where am I like and she

19:10

looked me stir in the face

19:12

and she was like all of your

19:14

projects You're working a lot, but

19:16

you're all helping other people like you

19:18

need something that you own and

19:20

I was like, but I don't have

19:22

time to do any of these

19:24

things because Everybody needs my support and

19:27

like I want to help the

19:29

team and she's like well I'm just

19:31

gonna be honest with you for

19:33

you to like gain leverage in the

19:35

workplace and to like eventually be

19:37

a senior leader you need to really

19:39

carve out things of impact that

19:41

you yourself lead and that means saying

19:44

no to other extraneous requests. It

19:46

actually doesn't help you to be the

19:48

most easygoing person in the office

19:50

and say yes to everything. Everyone's

19:52

gonna like you, but that won't get

19:54

you anywhere." And I was like, oh

19:56

my goodness, I need

19:59

to start saying no to

20:01

things. After

20:04

that conversation in the future, I

20:06

would go to my managers and I

20:08

would very clearly articulate what I

20:10

wanted. I was like, okay,

20:12

it's my priority to do these

20:14

things, but just so you know, for

20:16

me to do these things, I'm

20:18

going to need the time to do

20:20

them. And that is going to

20:22

mean that I might have to say

20:24

no to requests that maybe my

20:27

coworkers ask me, requests that maybe sister

20:29

teams are going to ask me,

20:31

requests maybe like upper manager might ask

20:33

me, and I'm going to have

20:35

to count on you as my manager

20:37

to help me say no and

20:39

to help me deflect things that aren't

20:41

actually going to be important on

20:43

my team. That conversation made a difference.

20:46

It made it so much easier for

20:48

me to say no because I also

20:50

knew that my manager was on my

20:52

side and that they would also stick

20:54

up for me. And that saying no

20:56

wouldn't mean people thinking I was a bad

20:58

coworker because it would be clear that

21:00

I'm saying no because I want to

21:02

say yes on the things that are

21:04

actually unfortunate. It's

21:07

easy to default to saying yes. But

21:10

as Sherry learned, there are big payoffs to

21:12

protecting your own time and boundaries. How

21:15

do you say no without jeopardizing

21:17

your reputation and relationships? More

21:19

on that after the break. Trust

21:35

isn't just earned, it's demanded. Whether

21:37

you're a startup founder navigating your

21:39

first audit or a seasoned security

21:42

professional scaling your GRC program, proving

21:44

your commitment to security has never

21:46

been more critical or more complex.

21:49

That's where Vanta comes in. Businesses

21:51

use Vanta to establish trust by

21:53

automating compliance needs across over 35

21:55

frameworks like SOC2 and ISO 27001,

21:57

centralized security workflows, complete questionnaires up

22:00

to five times faster and proactively

22:02

manage vendor risk. Vanta not only

22:04

saves you time, it can also

22:06

save you money. A new IDC

22:08

white paper found that Vanta customers

22:10

achieved $535 ,000 per year in benefits

22:13

and the platform pays for itself

22:15

in just three months. Join over

22:17

9 ,000 global companies like at

22:19

Lassie and Quora and Factory, who

22:21

use Vanta to manage risk and

22:23

prove security in real time. For

22:26

a limited time, get $1 ,000 off

22:28

Vanta at vanta.com slash Ted Audio.

22:30

That's V -A -N -T -A dot com

22:32

slash Ted Audio for $1 ,000

22:34

off. race

22:38

the runners race the sales

22:40

race the sales captain an

22:43

unidentified ship is approaching over

22:45

Roger wait is that an

22:47

enterprise sales solution reach sales

22:49

professionals not professional sailors with

22:52

LinkedIn ads you can target

22:54

the right people by industry

22:56

job title and more we'll

22:58

even give you a $100

23:01

credit on your next campaign

23:03

get started today at linkedin.com/results

23:05

terms and conditions When you're starting

23:07

off with something new, it seems

23:09

like your to-do list keeps growing.

23:11

Finding the right tool helps, and

23:13

that tool is Shopify. Shopify is

23:15

the commerce platform behind millions of

23:17

businesses apply around the world, and 10% of US e-commerce.

23:20

And best yet, Shopify is your

23:22

commerce expert with world-class expertise in

23:25

everything from managing inventory to international

23:27

shipping. If you're ready to sell,

23:29

you're ready for Shopify. You're ready

23:32

for Shopify per month trial at

23:34

Shopify. Back

23:43

in 2013, the New York Times magazine

23:45

did a cover story about my research

23:47

on why it's better to be a

23:49

giver than a taker. It was called,

23:51

Is Giving the Secret to Getting Ahead?

23:54

And it went into detail about my efforts to help

23:56

as many people as I could. I'd

23:58

become a caricature of a giver,

24:00

and after the article came out, people

24:02

started seeing me as the generosity

24:04

guy. It was like a

24:06

flashing neon sign for takers. This guy will

24:08

say yes to anything. I

24:10

got flooded with thousands of emails

24:13

from acquaintances and complete strangers

24:15

wanting things. It

24:21

was a

24:23

wake -up call. I

24:27

realized that there's a big difference between

24:29

pleasing people and helping them. In

24:39

her research, Vanessa Bonds has found

24:41

that saying no doesn't have to burn

24:43

bridges. We do tend to

24:45

overestimate how negatively we'll be seen

24:47

if we say no. I think

24:49

part of that is because we're

24:51

so focused on this one moment.

24:53

This is super salient. We

24:55

pay attention to the thing that's right in

24:58

front of our face, a super tangible thing.

25:00

And we're like, oh, this is the only

25:02

way people are going to know me in

25:04

this moment. But in fact, people have like

25:06

a much longer term impression of us. They've

25:08

seen all the times we have helped, and

25:10

this is just one out of many instances.

25:14

Once you accept that it's acceptable to

25:16

say no, you need some boundaries. I

25:18

certainly did. My favorite

25:20

way to set them is to create personal

25:22

policies. Instead of treating every

25:25

request as a separate dilemma, I made a

25:27

list of guidelines for what kinds of

25:29

requests I wouldn't fulfill. I

25:31

don't work for companies for free. I

25:33

don't give career advice to strangers. I

25:35

don't write forwards to books. It's

25:38

one thing to set boundaries. It's

25:41

another to communicate them. For

25:43

more than a decade, I've been test

25:45

driving strategies for saying no. And I've found

25:47

three that consistently work. They

25:49

tend to avoid negative reactions and

25:51

sometimes even elicit positive ones like, wow,

25:54

I respect your boundaries. And, huh,

25:56

I need to do more of that myself. You

25:59

just say no. But

26:01

if you're worried that the other person might be

26:03

upset, it can be helpful to give reasons. Research

26:06

suggests that when you provide a

26:08

credible explanation, people are more understanding,

26:11

even if it's not the response they wanted. That

26:14

goes to my first strategy for saying no.

26:16

Explain your personal policies. When

26:19

you walk through your philosophy on boundaries, you

26:21

make it clear to people that you're not

26:23

rejecting them. It's not about them

26:25

at all. Totally. It's like

26:27

those email signatures that say like, I don't

26:30

check email during these hours. It's like

26:32

not only protecting your time, it's teaching people

26:34

a norm. Like maybe we all shouldn't

26:36

check email at those hours. An

26:38

easy one is like, will you post about my

26:40

book on social media? No, that

26:42

would quickly turn my feed into book

26:44

launch spam. I can't do it for

26:46

everyone. I won't do it for anyone. Yeah.

26:48

You know what's funny about that too?

26:50

You know, speaking as someone who

26:52

asked you for a book endorsement. My

26:55

assumption going in is like this person's

26:57

gonna say no. And

27:00

so, you know, you knowing

27:02

that as the person being asked

27:04

that that person doesn't necessarily expect

27:06

a yes, right? If they do,

27:08

that's kind of entitled. And I

27:10

feel like that's a different category

27:13

of person. So like most people

27:15

are not expecting a yes. So

27:17

a polite, warm, thoughtful no is

27:19

like a win. for a lot

27:21

of people, right? Sure

27:23

enough, there's evidence that if you're the one being

27:25

asked, you tend to focus on the outcome

27:27

for the help seeker. But they judge

27:29

the interaction more by how they're treated in

27:32

the process. Wow, Adam Grant

27:34

sent me a really nice email back. You

27:36

know, he couldn't do it, and that's

27:38

fine. I mean, he's really busy, you

27:40

know? So I think understanding that, like,

27:42

people don't necessarily expect a yes, and

27:44

they're, like, pleasantly surprised when you do

27:46

say yes. I think that's just an important

27:48

thing to know. This speaks to the

27:50

second strategy, conveying care. You

27:53

can say no in a way that still

27:55

shows concern for others. So when

27:57

I go to the grocery

27:59

store, they always ask for donations.

28:02

And I always say, oh, I've already given

28:04

this year. And that makes

28:06

me feel like, OK, I've said I'm

28:09

a generous person. You know,

28:11

I've declined nicely, but it's a

28:13

clear no. Research reveals

28:15

that this is especially effective for

28:17

women to avoid backlash. So one

28:19

thing a lot of women I know do

28:21

is they'll have a list of all the things

28:23

that they have agreed to. And

28:25

so they'll say, you know, I would

28:27

love to do this, but I'm doing

28:29

one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

28:32

you know, all these other things. And

28:34

that shows like, look at how giving

28:36

and communal and cooperative I've been. I'm

28:38

a major contributor to this organization. But

28:41

I just can't say yes to this. I have too

28:43

much on my plate. I often

28:45

just say, sorry, my plate is

28:47

beyond full. Then I offer

28:49

something that costs me nothing, but I hope

28:51

is beneficial to them. For the

28:53

most common requests, I've written up

28:55

responses to frequently asked questions. Strangers

28:58

seeking career advice get a list of

29:00

my favorite books, articles, and podcasts. Authors

29:03

asking for forwards get a brain dump of

29:05

the lessons I've learned about how to promote a

29:07

book. And companies seeking

29:09

speakers get recommendations for authors who

29:11

are launching new books. That

29:14

speaks to the final strategy, the

29:16

referral. So when

29:18

somebody asks for your help, you

29:21

can give it yourself or you

29:23

can help that person sometimes just

29:25

as well as if you did

29:27

it yourself by referring them to

29:29

another person, right? You could

29:31

say, you know, I could help you,

29:33

but actually my colleague knows even

29:35

more about that and I'd be happy

29:38

to refer you to them. But

29:40

research has shown that we really don't

29:42

like to do that. It's called

29:44

referral aversion. we worry, first of all,

29:46

that it's going to make us

29:48

look incompetent, right? So that kind of

29:50

gets at this idea of like,

29:53

my reputational concerns. And people also worry

29:55

that it's going to kind of

29:57

damage the relationship with the other person.

30:00

I think there's a sense of like, I

30:02

am worthy as long

30:04

as people need me.

30:07

We're also afraid that by passing the baton,

30:09

we'll be letting others down. And

30:11

it turns out those fears are

30:13

generally misplaced. We actually overestimate how

30:15

much people are disappointed by getting

30:17

a referral, right? And so that

30:20

that concern is often bigger in

30:22

our own heads than it is

30:24

for the other person. And

30:26

so if it was purely

30:28

other oriented, right, it

30:30

might be best for the other

30:32

person for you to refer them elsewhere.

30:35

And yet we hold on to that

30:37

request and we feel like we need to

30:39

take it on ourselves. the

30:41

day that I became not

30:43

only comfortable, but also enthusiastic

30:45

about saying, you know what? I actually

30:47

know someone who's more qualified to help on this and

30:49

also is going to take more time for you. The

30:52

day I was excited to do that is the

30:54

day I felt like I was starting to get

30:56

over this chronic need to be liked. And

30:59

I think that it sort of

31:01

crystallized for me as a difference between

31:03

being needed and being valued. That

31:05

if I felt like other people needed

31:07

me, I felt like they were dependent on

31:09

me, and it was creating a sense

31:11

of obligation that I had to help them.

31:13

And I would worry about them. I

31:16

would feel guilty if I let them down.

31:18

And what I want is to

31:20

be valued. Absolutely. There is

31:22

so much. sort of advice

31:24

and information out there for how to

31:26

get better at saying no. And we tend

31:29

to put so much pressure on the

31:31

person who has to say no to be

31:33

the one to manage that, right? To

31:35

come up with, you know, we have these

31:37

strategies like you and I have been

31:39

talking about, but there's a responsibility on the

31:41

people asking to ask in ways that

31:44

aren't coercive. The data point to several ways

31:46

to do that. To avoid

31:48

imposing, you can ask, would you

31:50

or someone you know be willing

31:52

to Vanessa finds

31:54

that it also helps to give people the

31:56

words to say no. When

31:58

I make requests, I often say

32:00

no pressure, no obligation, no

32:03

repercussions. And when

32:05

I invited Vanessa to this podcast, I

32:07

couldn't resist writing, if you'd

32:09

like to refuse, please say the words

32:11

hell no. We found that

32:13

when you give people the words to

32:15

say no, that they don't necessarily say

32:18

no more, although maybe a little bit.

32:20

But the big thing is they feel

32:22

more like they could have said no,

32:24

right? It feels more voluntary when they

32:26

do agree. Another way

32:28

to show respect is giving people time to

32:30

process. So making a request and

32:32

saying, you know, let me know tomorrow or let

32:34

me know when you've had some time to

32:36

think about it. And asking over email is a

32:38

much less course of then asking in person. How

32:41

much less? In one study, Vanessa

32:43

found that people were 34 times

32:45

more likely to say yes face

32:47

to face than by email. And

32:50

so I often give the advice

32:52

of if someone asks you something

32:54

in person, face to face. Ask

32:56

them if you could take some time and respond

32:58

over email. Say, uh, I'll think about that a

33:00

little bit. I'll send you an email with my

33:03

answer tomorrow or whatever it is. So that is

33:05

kind of getting you out of that, that pressure

33:07

zone, giving you some time to think, actually make

33:09

a mindful decision about what you want to do

33:11

and then respond to them in a way that

33:13

you feel good about, right? I mean, that's another

33:15

thing to think about. Like each time we say

33:17

yes to something, we're kind of, uh, saying this

33:19

is okay. Right? We're saying like it

33:22

is acceptable for us to ask these things.

33:24

Sometimes we don't want people. to feel like, oh,

33:26

that was wrong to ask. But sometimes it's

33:28

like, no, I'm actually going to teach you that

33:30

this isn't something you should be asking for. I'm

33:32

so glad you brought that up. I was just

33:34

talking with our students about this. And we had

33:37

an example where a student said, like, she's one

33:39

of the only people she knows on campus with

33:41

a car. So whenever anybody

33:43

she knows needs something that

33:45

requires transportation, they basically

33:47

impose on her for car privileges.

33:50

And she said it was starting to damage some

33:52

of her friendships, and they were using her, but

33:54

she didn't want to hurt the relationship. And

33:56

I was like, look at this from

33:59

the other side, which is... time you say

34:01

yes, you are licensing and reinforcing that

34:03

behavior. And you're failing to

34:05

educate people and teach them that you

34:07

have boundaries. And so setting

34:09

a boundary is actually not only a

34:11

chance for you to protect your

34:13

time and your relationships, it's also a

34:15

chance for those people to learn

34:18

what's a reasonable ask and what's inappropriate.

34:20

I had a colleague who just kept

34:22

asking me shamelessly for things that were

34:24

unreasonable in the first place. Like, will

34:27

you read and comment line by line

34:29

on seven of my papers? And,

34:31

you know, I did

34:33

my usual polite nose and

34:35

he just would not

34:37

go away. And finally, it

34:39

must have been the seventh or eighth

34:41

request. I wrote back and

34:43

I said, I'm working on getting better

34:46

at saying no. Thank you for the

34:48

practice. I love that. That's one

34:50

of the the recommendations I give to

34:52

when people want a reason to say no.

34:54

That's like, it's not because I'm a

34:56

bad person. It's not because I'm not helpful.

34:58

It's just I'm working on this. It

35:00

says like I am my default is to

35:03

say yes to this, but like I'm

35:05

doing it too much. Don't

35:07

be afraid to have some fun with it. E

35:09

.B. White, the author of Charlotte's

35:12

Web, once turned down an invitation

35:14

by writing I must decline for

35:16

secret reasons. An

35:20

amusing or thoughtful no may well

35:22

be appreciated more than a thoughtless yes,

35:24

as Sherry Lou found out. She

35:27

got in the habit of explaining her

35:29

boundaries and conveying care. Like,

35:31

immediately I would say, hey, I, you

35:33

know, I'm at bandwidth right now, but

35:35

I wouldn't just say no straight up.

35:37

I would offer what I can help.

35:39

If I were you. This is how

35:42

I would approach it, and I would

35:44

give them maybe a framework to go

35:46

about it. She made referrals. I

35:48

would say, I can't

35:50

help you at this time.

35:52

However, if you need it

35:54

urgently, so -and -so might be

35:57

able to give you the answer.

36:00

She learned that saying no wasn't as

36:02

scary or risky as she'd expected.

36:04

What surprised me when I started saying

36:06

no in just all aspects of

36:08

life is that people are actually really

36:10

understanding. Like most people when

36:12

they ask you something is not like... Life

36:14

or death situation or it's not black

36:16

or white. It's not like they ask you

36:19

something if you don't do it. They'll

36:21

stop being your friend and I think when

36:23

you start saying no and you realize

36:25

sometimes people are just like, okay, no worries.

36:27

I'll do it myself or like no

36:29

worries. I'll ask somebody else. You're

36:31

like this thing that I in

36:33

my head that was just so

36:35

important to them actually was not

36:37

that important to them that I

36:39

helped them with it at this

36:42

specific moment. And when someone says

36:44

no to me for a good reason, I'm like, okay,

36:46

whatever. I totally understand.

36:49

And I'm like, okay, wait, if I react

36:51

like this, then why do

36:53

I feel like people are gonna dislike

36:55

me if I do the same

36:57

exact thing? It's so

36:59

interesting to hear you say

37:01

this. As a long recovering

37:03

slash mostly recovered people, please.

37:05

One of the things that

37:07

I've been surprised by is

37:09

sometimes a clear fast no

37:11

leads people to respect me

37:13

more. This is like an

37:15

odd example, but you know how like, are

37:18

you a cat person, Adam? We have

37:20

two cats, how'd you know? I

37:22

don't know, I'd guess, I'd guess. But

37:24

I think cats get more respect sometimes

37:26

because they draw strong boundaries, you know?

37:28

And then when a cat like, when

37:30

a cat who's not very cuddly comes

37:32

in like cuddles you on your lap

37:34

or like gives you affection, you're like,

37:36

oh my goodness, like this day is

37:38

like the best day ever. Like they

37:40

chose me versus like maybe a dog.

37:42

My family has a dog. She is

37:44

like cuddly all the time and super

37:47

affectionate. And when she's affectionate, like we

37:49

are also very happy, but it's not

37:51

the same amount of shock and joy.

37:53

as if like a cat who doesn't

37:55

do that does it to you. I

37:57

have to laugh at the cat comment

37:59

because I'll never forget when I turn

38:01

in my first book, I remember my

38:03

editor reading it and saying, you know,

38:05

Adam, dogs are givers

38:07

and cats are takers. Do

38:10

you agree? No, I don't agree. Yeah.

38:14

I think cats are... they're

38:16

more selective. And that means

38:18

it really counts when they

38:20

give. What does

38:22

that say? Setting

38:25

boundaries isn't a display of

38:27

disrespect. It's an expression

38:29

of self -respect. It's not

38:31

about letting others down. It's about standing

38:33

up for yourself. Saying

38:36

no is not selfish. It's

38:38

an act of self -preservation. Which

38:40

brings us back to the giving

38:42

tree. or as Topher Payne's

38:44

rewrite is called, the

38:46

tree who set healthy boundaries. His

38:49

version starts when the boy is grown up

38:51

and returns to the tree for the first

38:53

time. I am too busy

38:55

to climb trees, said the boy. I want

38:57

a house to keep me warm, he said. I

38:59

want a wife and I want children and so I

39:02

need a house. Can you give me a

39:04

house? And the tree said, okay,

39:06

hold up, this is already getting out

39:08

of hand. Look,

39:11

I was fine with giving you the

39:13

apples to help you get on

39:15

your feet. They'll grow back next season

39:17

anyway. But no, I'm not giving

39:19

you a house. You know,

39:21

I've seen boys like you pull this

39:23

nonsense with other trees in the

39:25

forest. First, it's the apples, then branches,

39:27

then the trunk. And before you

39:29

know it, that mighty beautiful tree is

39:31

just a sad little stump. Well,

39:34

look here, boy, I love you like

39:36

family, but I am not going down like

39:38

that. And

39:41

the boy is okay with that. He

39:43

realizes he hasn't been a very good

39:45

friend and begins to look after the tree,

39:47

just like the tree looked after him. Eventually,

39:50

he has kids who also

39:53

love the tree. And as

39:55

each generation played in her

39:57

strong old branches, the

39:59

tree often thought back to the

40:01

fateful day when the boy had asked

40:03

her for a house. In truth, she

40:06

would have gladly given him her branches

40:08

to build one. She would have

40:10

given him her trunk to build a boat. She

40:13

loved him that much. But

40:18

then she would have had nothing

40:20

left. Not for herself,

40:22

nor anyone else. And

40:24

there never would have been a home for

40:26

the Red Squirrels. There'd have been no

40:29

hide -and -seek with the boys' grandchildren, no

40:31

bakery with the best apple pies

40:33

anyone ever tasted. Setting

40:35

healthy boundaries is a very

40:38

important part of giving. It

40:40

assures you'll always have something

40:42

left to give. And

40:45

so the tree was happy. Everyone

40:48

was. This

41:12

episode was produced by Daphne

41:14

Chen. Our team includes Brittany

41:17

Cronin, Constanza Gallardo, Greta Kohn,

41:19

Grace Rubinstein, Daniela Balarezzo, Ben

41:21

Ben Chang, Alejandra Salazar, and

41:23

Roxanne Hylash. Our fact checker

41:25

is Paul Durbin. Our show is mixed

41:27

by Sarah Bruguere. Original music by

41:29

Hans Dale Sue and Allison Leighton Brown.

41:32

Gratitude to the following researchers and their

41:34

colleagues. Heidi Fritz and

41:36

Vicky Helgeson on Unmitigated Communion. Vanessa

41:38

Patrick on The Equatants Trap. Madeline

41:40

Heilman and Julie Chen on Gender

41:42

and Helping. Linda Babcock and colleagues

41:45

on Non -Promotable Tasks. Jennifer Burdahl

41:47

and Celia Moore on Double Jeopardy

41:49

in the Workplace. Daly and Canaan colleagues

41:51

on Giving vs. Giving In, Jerry

41:53

Greenberg and Tom Tyler on Legitimacy, Joel

41:55

Brockner on Receiver Reactions, Hannah

41:57

Riley Bulls on Women in

41:59

Negotiation Tactics, Eugene Park on

42:01

Referral Aversion, Vanessa's co -authors

42:03

Frank Flynn, Rachel Schlund, and

42:05

Maddie Roganizade. And thanks to

42:07

Izzy Carter and Theo Bydler. All

42:16

right, what's one you want to throw at me?

42:19

What's the hardest request for you to say no to?

42:22

I feel like I should eat my own dog

42:24

food here. I mean, I guess, you

42:27

know, Adam, I have another book coming

42:29

out. Will you plug it on social

42:31

media? To borrow

42:33

a line from Jam on the

42:35

Office. That is

42:37

not something I am

42:39

going to do. Adam

42:44

Grant is so mean. Are

42:49

you still quoting 30 year old

42:52

movies? Have you said cool beans in

42:54

the past 90 days? Do you still

42:56

think Discover isn't widely accepted? If this

42:58

sounds like you, you're stuck in the

43:01

past. Discover is accepted at 99%

43:03

of places that take credit cards

43:05

nationwide. And every time you make

43:07

a purchase with your card, you

43:10

automatically earn cash back. Welcome to

43:12

the now. It pays to Discover.

43:14

Learn more at discover.com/credit card. Based

43:17

on the February 2024 Nielsen report.

43:32

and Lisa is joined by the one

43:34

and only Stasti Schroeder. To keep

43:36

an eye on the new and returning

43:38

staff, the elite staff will

43:40

face scrutiny like never before as

43:42

they work and play under one roof.

43:44

New castle, new guests, and new

43:47

drama. Season 2 of Vanderpump

43:49

Villa is now streaming on

43:51

Hulu. This Mother's Day,

43:53

show the moms in your

43:55

life just how much they mean

43:57

to you with a stunning

43:59

bouquet from 1800flowers.com. For almost Over

44:01

50 years, 1 -800 -Flowers has

44:03

set the standard for high -quality

44:05

bouquets. Right now, order early from

44:07

1 -800 -Flowers and save up

44:09

to 40 % on gorgeous bouquets

44:11

and one -of a kind arrangements

44:13

guaranteed to make her day. Save

44:15

up to 40 % today at

44:17

1 -800 -Flowers.com slash Acast. That's

44:19

1 -800 -Flowers.com slash -Cast, The florist

44:21

of Mother's Day.