0:05

Hello everybody and welcome back to Rev

0:07

Left Radio. Today's episode

0:09

is kind of a little collaboration between Rev

0:11

Left and our other sister podcast Guerrilla

0:14

History. And in that vein I have on

0:16

Henry. So me and Henry are going to be interviewing

0:18

Ashley Fattah about South

0:21

African apartheid, how it rose,

0:23

what its internal dynamics were, eventually

0:25

how it ended, and how its legacy still

0:27

lives on in South Africa today. Now

0:29

I want to make it clear that this episode is a really

0:32

good primer. It's a 101 introduction

0:35

to this issue, specifically

0:38

because we are going to do more

0:40

work on this issue. We wanted to

0:42

have a nice, relatively brief, introductory

0:45

conversation with a very knowledgeable

0:47

expert on the overview

0:49

of South African apartheid so

0:52

then we can move into some of its

0:54

more detailed dynamics

0:57

going forward. So I think at some point in early

0:59

to mid-December, me,

1:02

Henry, perhaps Allison and Adnan

1:04

are all going to have a sort

1:05

of Rev Left family get together where

1:07

we sort of dive into

1:10

the depths of South African history,

1:12

South African apartheid, and really

1:15

focus on pulling out lessons from

1:18

that history that can be applied

1:20

in particular to the Palestinian

1:22

national liberation struggle. What we can learn

1:24

from this previous instantiation of apartheid

1:27

that fell within some of our lifetimes

1:30

and what we can learn from that and

1:33

apply in the Palestinian context. So

1:35

this is a really interesting and important introduction,

1:39

and it's only that, but it's a good one, an

1:41

introduction to South African

1:43

apartheid with Ashley Fattah.

1:47

This episode was helped set up by our

1:49

friend Leo Zeling, who is at the Review of

1:51

African Political Economy. I know Brett,

1:53

you reached out to me and said, Henry,

1:55

I'd like to have an episode of Rev

1:57

Left that focuses on this topic.

2:00

of South African apartheid in parallels

2:02

to Palestinian apartheid. And

2:05

I said great topic, something I've been thinking about as

2:07

well, but I don't have a guest in mind for

2:09

that. So fortunately, we

2:12

are friends with Leo and we're able to reach out and

2:15

he put us in touch with Ashley. So as

2:17

I mentioned, our guest

2:20

for this episode is Ashley Fattar. Hello, Ashley.

2:23

Can you introduce yourself to the listeners of the shows?

2:26

Hi, Henry. Hi, Pertz. Hello, everyone.

2:28

My name is Ashley Fattar. I'm a

2:31

long time activist and a socialist. I

2:33

was in Zimbabwe for a number of years, but I'm

2:36

now in South Africa, which is where my family

2:38

is from and where I was born.

2:41

Through my late father, I was exposed to

2:43

what was the Tuskis tradition of socialism

2:46

and the ambition kept on in South Africa.

2:49

Thanks. Wonderful. Well,

2:51

let's just go ahead and jump into it. I think

2:53

the first place to start before we

2:55

get into differences

2:57

and similarities between the situation in Palestine,

3:00

the situation in South Africa, is

3:02

to help our audience, some of whom might

3:04

know very little about the history of South

3:07

Africa. It's to orient them to the history

3:09

there. So I'm going to ask a pretty big question,

3:11

but you can be very summary

3:14

oriented and as brief as you want

3:16

to be. But I'm wondering just to help orient

3:18

the listeners to the history of South Africa,

3:21

if you can kind of give us a one oh

3:23

one overview of the rise

3:26

of the apartheid state, how it came to be,

3:28

and then sort of the chronology of how it passed

3:30

away before we get into the details.

3:33

Okay. So beginning

3:35

about the later half

3:38

of the 1600s, there were European

3:42

traders who

3:44

start by in where I am, I'm Cape

3:46

Town and began

3:48

establishing refreeing stations

3:51

for the ships between Europe and

3:53

Asia. And

3:56

as time went on, more and more Europeans

3:59

arrived.

3:59

And

4:00

essentially, what is today

4:03

South Africa had

4:04

also Zimbabwe and a few other

4:06

countries, quite a few other countries in

4:08

Africa were then came

4:11

under colonial occupation.

4:15

And these were European

4:18

countries that we look at Britain, France,

4:22

Portugal and Germany

4:26

and also to an extent Holland as well. So those

4:28

are the five main and

4:31

Belgium as well. So

4:35

what then happened is that the native

4:38

populations, the African populations were dispossessed

4:41

of their land. The

4:44

cattle which was also a source of income,

4:48

they were dispossessed of their cattle

4:52

and forced to work in

4:54

white owned European owned companies,

4:57

farms and so forth. The

5:01

system of apartheid came

5:03

into effect in South Africa in legally in 1948.

5:08

But before that the

5:11

Native Land Act of 1923 specified certain types of

5:14

land and areas of

5:17

land that could only be occupied

5:20

used by white

5:22

people by Europeans. And

5:25

the less Arab land was allocated

5:27

to the local

5:30

African population. So

5:33

this is a

5:37

reality that continues in South Africa

5:39

today. We

5:41

have essentially what we now call economic

5:43

apartheid. And

5:46

yeah, so this is how very briefly South

5:48

Africa, the situation in South Africa,

5:50

the roadside came to be. Before

5:52

Henry jumps in, I just want to say that it's

5:55

interesting that 1948 is a crucial year

5:58

in this situation as well. And it's also very important.

5:59

very important for people to understand that even though

6:02

the official end of apartheid occurred,

6:05

that that legacy continues to live

6:07

on in South Africa and sort of shape that

6:09

system, of course, based first and foremost

6:12

on class and race, which we can get into

6:14

in a little bit here. But I think that's an important note for listeners

6:16

to take home.

6:18

Absolutely. And, you know, just

6:21

as Brett mentioned, apartheid

6:24

formally ended in 1994, but

6:27

it has just shifted forms in many

6:29

ways. It's no longer a legal construct

6:32

as much as a political, socio-political

6:35

construct in

6:38

that these divisions within

6:40

society have been entrenched and

6:42

are very present within the economic

6:44

sphere, even though they're

6:47

not present within the legal sphere. But turning back

6:49

to 1948, as you mentioned, this is kind

6:51

of the legal start of apartheid,

6:54

although the roots of it go

6:56

obviously much farther back than that.

6:58

It really started when

7:00

the National Party won the elections in 1948 and then

7:03

through various acts that

7:06

came through. As you mentioned, there

7:08

was land acts that started actually prior

7:10

to this, but then in 1950, there was a few

7:12

more and I think 53, there was some more.

7:15

By the end of that, 80% of the land

7:17

was held by the white

7:20

minority of the country, whereas the other 20%

7:22

was held by everybody else in

7:24

the country. There was laws

7:27

that came into place that

7:30

categorized people and classified

7:32

them into different racial groups. Originally, there

7:34

was three, the so-called

7:36

Bantu group, which was just any black African,

7:40

the colored non-white

7:42

group and then white. And then eventually

7:44

they added the Asian

7:46

group, which was Indians and Pakistanis.

7:50

But the point that I'm driving at here

7:52

is that this was like a confluence of many

7:54

legal acts that came into force. I'm

7:57

just wondering if you can talk a little bit about who

7:59

the National Party was and how their victory in 1948

8:02

kind of set up this enforcement

8:05

of various legal acts that collectively became

8:07

known as apartheid and

8:10

how these acts then kind of came

8:12

together to create an entire system of

8:14

apartheid based on these kind

8:17

of you know piecemeal bits

8:19

here bits there that then kind of came together

8:21

into a hegemonic structure within society.

8:24

So you first of

8:26

all had the

8:28

Native Land Act. The laws

8:30

that decided

8:33

which land that could open

8:36

they could not own and it was

8:38

that that was crucial because

8:41

the

8:43

African population income,

8:45

the ivy road existence

8:48

was based on the land. So

8:51

by

8:52

they did that in order to force the

8:56

black males, adult black males

8:58

to go and work in the farms and

9:02

this is essentially the

9:05

the crux of of a project. How

9:08

it came about, why it came about. So

9:11

the late 1800s year the discovery of gold

9:16

and diamonds in what is now

9:18

the northern part of South Africa and

9:21

the

9:22

mining to

9:25

get at the diamond

9:27

at the goals needed labor

9:29

intensive operations. So

9:34

by forcing the African

9:37

populations through the very

9:41

punishing hot text that

9:46

they forced the African population

9:48

off the land and into the mines. Then

9:51

the so

9:53

that that was essentially the

9:55

kind of start of the

9:57

operations the start of of

10:00

a party where one section of the population

10:03

is being forced to stop what

10:05

is doing for a number

10:07

of years, for another number of years,

10:11

or for centuries, and being forced

10:13

into a new form of economic

10:15

production. So then

10:19

they moved towards … so

10:23

the next step was to fully take

10:25

away their land.

10:26

And then

10:29

another piece of … important

10:31

piece of a party in legislature

10:33

is the Group Areas Act.

10:36

And this then also determined

10:40

in addition where people could live and where they

10:42

could not live. So

10:46

as urbanization begins …

10:49

not begins … they

10:52

needed a system

10:55

of … an urban system where

10:58

the world … where the essentially the

11:00

black population and working

11:03

class populations didn't live in

11:05

the same area as those who

11:07

owned the business. So

11:10

they decided, okay, this

11:14

area is reserved for blacks, that

11:17

area is reserved for self-fulcolors, that

11:19

area is reserved for South Korean Indians, and

11:21

that area is reserved for whites. So

11:24

that then came

11:27

to … is one of the

11:29

things that came to signify the

11:32

system of apartheid. In addition to that,

11:34

in public transport, people

11:37

of different colors could not use the

11:39

same public transport. At

11:43

work, the restrooms were racially

11:45

segregated. Facilities

11:48

were racially segregated. And

11:52

art on the public benches, those were also racially

11:54

segregated, like what you have in

11:59

the southern part of the U.S. as well, that kind

12:01

of racial segregation. So

12:04

that then,

12:06

so the National Party

12:09

provided essentially the whole

12:11

legal framework of apartheid.

12:14

That was its significance

12:19

and drove apart

12:21

similarities,

12:24

especially with last communities into different

12:26

areas. Yeah, that's,

12:30

yeah.

12:34

Yeah, so there, I mean, just a couple of things that you mentioned.

12:36

There's obviously the taking over

12:38

and the occupation of land as a crucial

12:40

element in colonial apartheid.

12:44

You have the, you know, exploitation

12:46

of cheap labor of the indigenous population

12:49

by the colonizing force to generate profits.

12:52

You have a racial, ethnic, or religious

12:54

caste system. In this case, it was very racially

12:56

oriented. In the case of Palestine, it's

12:59

a little bit more towards ethnicity and religion,

13:01

though, of course, race, of course, is incorporated

13:03

into all of that. So we see some of these patterns

13:06

being that explicitly and objectively

13:08

existed in South African apartheid,

13:10

also existing in the context of Palestine.

13:13

And I think we will get more into that in a

13:15

bit. But first, I want to continue the history

13:17

of South Africa, and particularly,

13:19

I want to talk about the African National

13:22

Congress and the rise of Nelson

13:24

Mandela in particular. Now, everybody listening

13:26

probably knows that at the beginning,

13:28

you know, this group and Mandela in particular

13:31

was labeled a terrorist. They

13:33

took up, you know, non-legal

13:36

means of resistance, often armed resistance

13:38

as well. So I was wondering if you can kind of talk

13:40

about the African National Congress, how

13:42

it came to be, and some of the tactics

13:45

used by them or other forces of

13:48

liberation in the area before apartheid

13:50

ended.

13:52

Okay.

13:53

So the African

13:56

National Congress

13:58

came about as a means to

13:59

to

14:01

initially they didn't go

14:04

about demanding the return of the land

14:06

because African National Congress was founded

14:09

in 1912. And

14:12

if you look at the People's

14:15

Charter, which is 1955, which the African National Congress

14:21

wanted down, it

14:24

was this, that's a reflection

14:26

of the ANC, kind of liberal

14:29

politics. So in other

14:31

words, we want, what the ANC

14:33

demanded was we want the right to vote. We

14:36

want the right to live wherever we want

14:38

to live.

14:41

And

14:43

we want to be able to go into business.

14:47

Let's look at the right to live

14:49

wherever you want to live. The fact is that it's

14:52

based on how much

14:54

money you have, how much

14:56

money you're paid. So

15:00

the ANC is

15:02

inherently a liberal

15:05

kind of black nationalist party.

15:09

And it's

15:11

the core of its programs,

15:15

of its policies, of its politics has

15:18

been the black, what

15:20

was the black petty bourgeois class,

15:23

the small catalysts. That

15:27

is what has driven the ANC.

15:33

And

15:34

yes, it's presented as a main

15:38

liberal organization in South

15:40

Africa, but that is not the case. Because

15:44

it was only, it wasn't

15:46

until the first half of the

15:49

1980s, it was

15:51

only then that the ANC

15:54

was going to get some

15:56

kind of relevance. And

15:58

it was only then that the ANC was going to get some kind of relevance.

15:59

the

16:01

more radical black nationalist, para-fascist

16:04

Congress and

16:06

then socialist groups which we've

16:08

had the political influence in South Africa especially

16:11

in the working class bishops

16:15

and it was

16:17

similar with the creation of the United

16:19

Democratic Front in the

16:21

first half of the 1980s

16:23

that the NC began to become have some

16:25

kind of relevance. So

16:30

it was literally a decade

16:32

before former independence

16:34

in 1994

16:36

that the ANC had some

16:38

kind of relevance

16:41

and the ANC deliberated

16:44

the people of South Africa but that is not the

16:46

case because the one

16:49

argument which is really

16:51

not true is that the ANC waged a guerrilla

16:53

war. It's certainly

16:56

true that there were some

16:57

guerrilla action but it was a handful

17:00

of guerrilla actions

17:02

and what they did was

17:04

it really was above any significance.

17:07

It was the the black working

17:09

class in the

17:11

workplaces and in the townships who

17:14

carried out the struggle.

17:16

It was that black working class that actually

17:19

freed Mandela and the other

17:23

leaders of the ANC from prison is

17:26

the actions of black working class that

17:29

caused the apartheid

17:33

government to

17:34

unban the ANC inside

17:36

of an communist party and other anti-apartheid

17:40

parties.

17:42

So it

17:43

is

17:46

the

17:47

mass action of the black working class

17:50

in South Africa that led

17:52

to it being freed

17:54

from formal

17:56

apartheid, from legalized apartheid. That's

18:00

the important point of a mind. I'm

18:02

going to hop in here and I know that we're going to talk

18:05

more about parallels between South

18:07

African apartheid and Palestinian apartheid

18:09

later in more detail, but there

18:11

are a couple of points that were brought up that

18:14

do really parallel what

18:16

we're seeing now rhetorically

18:19

with regards to the Palestinian resistance

18:21

to Israeli apartheid in occupied

18:24

Palestine. And here is a couple

18:26

of the points that came up. So one

18:28

is that we often think of the

18:30

ANC as kind of like the leading edge

18:33

of the anti-apartheid

18:37

movement or they were the anti-apartheid

18:39

movement. I mean, of course they were in many ways the leading

18:41

edge, but that they kind of became synonymous.

18:45

What we're seeing right now with regards to the Palestinian

18:47

resistance is this totalization

18:50

of the Palestinian liberation movement

18:52

to Hamas in the Western media,

18:54

particularly. As soon as we see,

18:57

you know, look

18:59

at what's happening right now

19:01

in Gaza, it is Israel versus Hamas,

19:04

not the Palestinian liberation movement. There's

19:06

no discussion of the fact that there is

19:09

numerous groups that are active within

19:12

the Palestinian liberation movement, all of

19:14

whom have signed on to the current

19:17

collaborative efforts to fight

19:20

actively against Israeli

19:22

apartheid. But there's this totalization

19:25

of the resistance being just Hamas

19:27

within the media. And of course, then

19:29

we're called on whenever we talk about

19:31

this, do you condemn Hamas? In

19:34

much the same way, as you mentioned, when

19:37

talking about the anti-apartheid movement, it often

19:39

gets totalized just to the ANC

19:41

and the efforts of, you know, people

19:43

like Mandela, rather than thinking about

19:45

that broader context, thinking about societal

19:48

movements that are happening outside of parties,

19:51

working class movements, and also thinking about

19:53

the fact that, as you mentioned, there was many socialist

19:55

and communist currents that were operating within

19:58

the

20:01

within the South

20:03

African anti-apartheid movement as well. Just

20:06

as we see again now in Palestine, we

20:08

have groups like the PFLP and

20:10

the DFLP that are explicitly

20:12

socialist groups, but they never get touched on.

20:15

Even though the PFLP is the second

20:17

largest group of the PLO,

20:19

for example, they don't get discussed. It's

20:22

always this totalization to Hamas. So I

20:25

do see a parallel there, and I also

20:27

see the parallel that Brett brought

20:29

up with regard to the fact that Mandela

20:32

was, you know, kind of, he was thrown

20:34

in jail under the ground that he was kind of this terrorist

20:37

actor. And the

20:39

fact that we have this, again,

20:42

this framing of somebody who's fighting

20:44

for liberation of their people as

20:47

a terrorist, and that there's this wholesale

20:50

taking up of this term, terrorist,

20:52

to describe somebody who is fighting against

20:55

oppression and for liberation. This

20:57

is again exactly what we are seeing in the case

20:59

of the Palestinian Liberation Movement, where

21:02

the fact of active armed resistance

21:05

equates you to terrorism without any

21:07

sort of discussion of that context

21:10

of it being a liberatory struggle

21:13

against an oppressive settler colonial regime.

21:16

So the question that I'm going to bring

21:18

up here, Ashley, is that, you know,

21:20

we do have these parallels. Can you dive

21:22

in a little bit deeper into the South African context,

21:25

because I think that the listeners are going to be, with

21:27

it being, you know, current, more

21:29

familiar with what I'm talking about, the

21:32

Palestinian side of this context, but maybe

21:35

aren't as familiar with the way

21:38

that these groups were operating in the anti-apartheid

21:41

movement outside of the ANC, as

21:43

well as how this rhetoric of terrorism

21:46

was being utilized against members of

21:48

the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa.

21:52

Yeah, so

21:53

they were labeled as terrorists because the

21:56

context then

21:57

was the Cold War,

21:59

and the...

21:59

apartheid government was pro-West.

22:02

So the West, which includes,

22:06

at the time, Joe Biden, was

22:09

a senator.

22:13

They didn't want South Africa

22:16

post-apartheid to fall into the hands of what

22:20

was then the Soviet Union.

22:24

So

22:26

the ANC and the PAC were labeled as

22:28

being terrorists in order

22:32

to

22:34

try to sway influence,

22:37

not even support

22:40

away from the anti-apartheid movements. But

22:43

let's just look at the anti-apartheid movement

22:45

or

22:46

what's broadly referred to as the anti-apartheid

22:49

movement.

22:50

So you had, I'm just going

22:52

to sort of look at the different streams.

22:54

So you had

22:56

the

22:57

ANC, which was a kind of, I

23:00

think, almost a neoliberal

23:03

black nationalist movement

23:06

seeking

23:08

the rights to vote

23:11

and for people to live and work where they want

23:13

to. And then slightly to

23:16

the left of them, the

23:18

more radical but so

23:20

nationalist, left nationalist,

23:23

anti-apartheid Congress, which

23:26

demanded not just the rights, but also

23:28

black people

23:31

had to become the owners

23:33

of the means

23:35

of production.

23:37

And it didn't specify which social class,

23:40

but

23:41

it was nevertheless

23:43

for the petty

23:45

bourgeoisie.

23:47

So

23:48

the PAC was kind of a

23:51

more radical section of blackness,

23:54

black petty bourgeoisie in South

23:56

Africa. With a handful

23:58

kind of sanctions.

23:59

yes, we are Marxists, Martin

24:02

reality, not really.

24:04

Then you had the sononist

24:06

trend, which is that of the Sarayevan Communist Party.

24:09

And the SACB essentially was

24:11

just

24:13

provided a red cover for the ANC, as somebody

24:15

put it.

24:17

It was the SACB

24:19

has never been electrically independent.

24:21

It's always been

24:23

at the side of or behind the ANC

24:26

and accepted the leadership of the ANC.

24:28

And then you have the other countries

24:31

that the Troskis,

24:33

others would say, workerist organizations.

24:37

So that was kind of your unity movement.

24:41

The workers league of

24:43

South Africa,

24:46

the workers international

24:49

and worldly

24:50

at the time.

24:52

So those were the four political

24:55

currents and all broadly vamped

24:57

into the

24:58

anti-apartheid movement. Fighting

25:02

for the same ideal, the same objectives,

25:05

but which is not the case.

25:08

Because

25:09

the Troskis

25:11

recognize that getting

25:15

the rid of apartheid without

25:18

getting rid of capitalism was not going to improve

25:20

the lot of the

25:22

of the back working class. So

25:24

it was it was about more than fighting against

25:27

just legal racial segregation,

25:30

racial separation.

25:33

But also a

25:34

position, a situation where

25:37

workers had the significant

25:39

majority say

25:41

in what goes on in the workplace. And

25:45

any effect kind of answer your question.

25:47

Yeah, I have one brief

25:50

comment about Joe Biden before

25:52

Brett asks the next question. Just

25:54

since you mentioned Biden, this is kind

25:57

of just a humorous aside. But

25:59

in February, 2020 some listeners might

26:01

remember that Biden was campaigning

26:04

for president at the time and on the campaign

26:06

trail in at least three

26:09

different campaign appearances.

26:12

He mentioned that he was on a trip to South

26:14

Africa and got arrested in Soweto

26:18

when he was going to visit Nelson Mandela

26:20

and I have one of the specific quotes it's

26:23

just funny. He says this day 30 years ago

26:25

Nelson Mandela walked out of prison and entered

26:27

into discussions about apartheid. I

26:30

had the great honor of meeting him. I had

26:32

the great honor of being arrested with our UN

26:34

ambassador on the streets of Soweto trying to

26:36

get to see him on Robins Island but

26:39

of course when looking at the actual record

26:42

there was no record of him ever being arrested

26:45

in South Africa and the US

26:48

ambassador to the United Nations from 77 to 79

26:51

Andrew Young who also was a previous

26:54

congressman and also mayor of Atlanta.

26:57

He's still alive. They called at least at the time

26:59

that you know the story was

27:01

out there he was still alive. I don't know if he's alive

27:03

today but they called him up and said

27:06

hey you know Andrew Young

27:08

do you recall Biden never being arrested

27:11

in South Africa during your visit there and he goes

27:13

no I don't think that that happened and

27:16

I don't think that that would have been allowed to happen

27:18

for an active US congressperson

27:20

to be arrested in South Africa and

27:22

if it was it certainly would be in the news

27:24

at the time but you know it was never mentioned prior

27:27

to this campaigning in 2020 and it also

27:29

wasn't even in Biden's autobiography when he was talking

27:31

about South Africa so

27:34

you know just a kind of humorous aside

27:36

about Biden and his you know senility

27:38

or whatever. In addition to which

27:41

the streets of Soweto and Robins Island are at two

27:43

different ends of the country

27:46

so there is no way you

27:48

walking through the streets of Soweto to get to an

27:50

island on the other side of the country. Yeah

27:54

absurd. I want to ask a little

27:56

bit about the the armed struggle

27:59

aspect of the

27:59

anti-apartheid movement. Of

28:02

course we've seen, you know, with the Palestinian

28:04

resistance has never made any qualms

28:06

about using violence to obtain

28:09

their national liberation. Of course Israel makes no

28:12

qualms about using mass murder campaigns

28:14

against the Palestinians as is happening

28:17

right now. But of course anytime

28:19

an oppressed people pick up the gun they

28:21

are labeled terrorists by the dominant

28:23

hegemonic power. We see that in

28:26

almost every instance and we never see a,

28:28

I mean almost never, a fully

28:30

peaceful national liberation struggle because

28:32

those who have imposed these conditions

28:35

on oppressed people do not give up their power

28:37

and their luxury and their wealth and their

28:39

control very easily. So they're forced

28:42

in a lot of circumstances to engage

28:44

in violent resistance. So with all

28:47

of that in the background here can you kind of talk about

28:49

in particular the armed struggle aspects

28:52

of the anti-apartheid movement and how

28:54

they were labeled terrorism by

28:56

the dominant powers.

28:58

Okay,

29:00

so

29:02

the African National Congress and the PC

29:04

had what they call at training camps

29:07

in currents like Angola, Zambia

29:10

and Tanzania,

29:12

both in Mozambique as well.

29:15

But the thing is that

29:17

neither of them had,

29:21

neither of them received any significant

29:24

military hardware guns that

29:26

sort of thing

29:27

in order to wage an effective

29:29

guerrilla struggle.

29:31

The ANC never got anything from Russia,

29:33

the PC didn't get anything from China or

29:36

from any of the other or

29:38

you know and they certainly didn't receive anything

29:41

significant

29:43

from countries like Angola, Zimbabwe

29:45

and so forth.

29:47

Russia said at the time that it was not

29:49

interested in a full-fledged

29:52

war in South Africa, it

29:54

wasn't prepared to

29:56

go to that extent in the Cold

29:58

War.

30:00

Because

30:02

they realized

30:04

that South Africa, with

30:07

its high level of industrialization,

30:09

it had a population

30:13

that was very urbanized.

30:15

So they didn't want a situation.

30:17

Russia did not want a situation where guns

30:20

ended up in the hands of the working class,

30:23

which then takes over the means of production.

30:26

That is what they were scared of.

30:28

The

30:30

second thing is to wage

30:32

a guerrilla struggle in South Africa is a

30:34

danger. Because it's

30:36

not like,

30:38

say, Vietnam in

30:40

the 70s or 60s, Cuba in the

30:42

50s, where you have

30:44

a significant part

30:48

of the population in the countryside that

30:50

can give you support, that can hide you, that can shout to

30:52

you.

30:54

In South Africa, by the 1980s, three

30:56

quarters of the Black population was urbanized.

31:00

So

31:01

they couldn't really have any

31:04

kind of significant military force

31:07

within the townships that had been discovered.

31:09

So

31:11

it's important to restate that the

31:14

guerrilla struggle in South Africa was not

31:16

significant.

31:18

It wasn't anywhere near the levels of what

31:20

took place in Mozambique,

31:22

Orzenbarpa, or Angola, for

31:24

that matter.

31:25

It really wasn't anything

31:28

significant.

31:30

That's an important point that you've understood.

31:34

The struggle was waged by the

31:37

workers, the working class, in

31:39

the townships of South Africa

31:42

and in the weather places. That

31:44

is where the main struggle took place inside.

31:46

I have a follow-up. You mentioned Namibia. You

31:48

mentioned Angola. I

31:51

know this is a – one aspect of this

31:53

struggle was, of course, Cuban assistance

31:57

in the area at the time. Can

31:59

you touch on – Cuba's role

32:01

in this historical event.

32:04

The Cubas were in Angola. So

32:07

what happened was

32:09

as Portuguese

32:10

imperialism collapsed

32:13

Portugal found that it could not continue

32:17

to occupy Angola. So they kind of said okay well

32:24

we're

32:25

gonna leave it between and the two main

32:27

proposals at the time was UNITA which

32:30

had some kind of Western

32:31

backing

32:33

and the MPLA the popular movement for

32:35

the liberation of Angola which

32:38

had Russian and

32:40

Chinese backing. So

32:43

in order to help UNITA

32:46

the Salish-war apartheid regime

32:48

sent in

32:51

soldiers military into Angola

32:54

from

32:55

what is now Namibia

32:56

in order to help UNITA and

32:59

what the Cubans did is that they then supplied

33:02

soldiers and hardware to MPLA

33:05

and the new government of Angola

33:07

to fight the Salafians

33:10

and through

33:12

that intervention the

33:14

Cubans helped the Angolans to

33:17

deal a decisive defeat to both the

33:19

Salafians and UNITA

33:21

led at that time by Jonas Savinbi. So

33:24

it prevented

33:27

the fall of Angola into the hands

33:29

of a Western-backed

33:32

army led by Savinbi.

33:34

So that was that was the significance of the

33:37

Cubans in Angola. Yeah. Also

33:40

worth mentioning that in talking

33:44

about the battles that took place between

33:46

UNITA and the MPLA and

33:49

with the Cubans actually taking

33:51

a very active role in this we had the

33:53

famous battle of Quito Carnevale which

33:56

was one of the biggest tank

33:58

battles

33:59

after

34:00

World War II and I believe it was the

34:03

biggest battle in the African continent after

34:05

World War II at that

34:07

point at least very significant

34:10

and without Cuban support that battle would

34:12

have gone completely differently and the struggle likely

34:15

also would have gone completely differently But

34:17

the question I'm gonna be hopping in with is actually

34:19

kind of the inverse of breath so Brett

34:22

was asking about the role

34:24

of Cuba in The

34:26

you know anti apartheid movement

34:28

and various of these other anti-colonial

34:32

movements in in Africa

34:35

the inverse of that would be the role of the West

34:37

in

34:39

Propagating and perpetuating

34:41

and supporting the apartheid

34:44

regime in South Africa And again

34:46

this parallels what we're seeing today in

34:49

Israel-Palestine

34:51

We are seeing an absolute unconditional

34:55

support for the settler

34:57

colonial regime in Israel in Much

35:01

the same way that the apartheid

35:03

regime was being to the

35:05

hilt propped up by Western

35:07

backers, so if you could talk

35:09

a little bit about how that

35:12

Western backing actually Propagated

35:15

itself in the South African context

35:17

and perhaps that'll also allow them the listeners

35:19

to think about the parallels between What

35:22

was happening in South Africa during the apartheid

35:24

regime in the way that the US and its

35:26

other you know Western allies? We're supporting

35:29

the apartheid regime with the

35:31

exact same sort of backing that

35:33

we're seeing for the settler colonial regime

35:35

in Israel today

35:37

So it's a little bit those something

35:38

called arms call

35:41

which

35:42

Was owned by the government and

35:45

its

35:46

Purpose was to acquire military hardware

35:49

on before the silent military

35:51

It wasn't a

35:53

serious situation where military

35:56

jets Hanks would be

35:58

a assembled in the

36:00

West and then brought to

36:03

South Africa.

36:04

It was a short situation where the

36:07

Blackbird better

36:09

with the blueprints, the plans for

36:13

these aircraft and tanks and so

36:15

forth, other weaponry was given

36:17

to South Africa. South Africa

36:19

then modified and treat them and produced

36:22

its own

36:23

versions, so-called own versions of

36:25

these various

36:27

tanks and jets.

36:29

The West poured

36:32

that in and then of course

36:35

in addition to that it was other things where

36:39

the sanctions

36:41

were violated, which

36:43

the West knew about but did nothing to stop.

36:46

South

36:48

Africa was using passenger

36:51

aircraft and loading weaponry

36:53

into the cargo hold on

36:55

its regular international flights. In

36:58

addition to that you had secret

37:01

cargo flights as well in and out of the country.

37:05

So that is how the West propped up South

37:08

Africa and also companies like

37:10

IBM

37:12

supplied

37:15

computer hardware and software in

37:18

order to help things run as well. They survived

37:25

oil as well and the

37:28

oil refining technology was

37:30

provided by the West. Nuclear

37:34

weapons technology was also provided by the

37:36

West

37:38

in order to prop up the apartheid

37:41

regime. A

37:42

really quick follow-up question. Those

37:45

nuclear weapons,

37:48

when the apartheid ended, if I'm not mistaken,

37:51

that weapons program was sort of dismantled

37:53

and those nukes were taken elsewhere or ended.

37:56

Can you talk about that and the reasons behind

37:58

that?

37:59

interesting.

38:01

Yes, once the apartheid

38:03

ended, then the post-apartheid government

38:07

ended the entire nuclear weapons program.

38:10

What happened to the weapons I can't recall

38:12

offhand? But

38:16

yes, that nuclear weapons program was completely

38:19

dismantled here.

38:20

I think if

38:22

I'm not mistaken, the only country

38:24

that was a nuclear power had its no longer

38:26

a nuclear power. Yeah. One quick

38:30

note to mention about in 2010,

38:33

there wasn't a report that came out from

38:35

the Guardian that

38:37

mentioned that there was some

38:40

apartheid era papers that had

38:42

been released and

38:45

declassified that

38:47

showed that Israel offered to sell

38:50

South Africa, the apartheid South African

38:53

regime nuclear weapons.

38:55

Now, keep in mind, listeners, that

38:58

Israel still denies having

39:00

nuclear weapons. This, despite the fact that I

39:03

think yesterday or the day before

39:05

at the time of recording or recording November 6th,

39:08

the Minister of Heritage of

39:11

Israel said that they should nuke

39:14

Gaza. Now keep in mind, this is a

39:16

regime that says, hey, everybody, we don't

39:18

have nuclear weapons despite the fact

39:21

that everybody for decades has

39:23

known that they have, but they still claim that they don't.

39:26

The Minister of Heritage, again, yesterday

39:28

or the day before at the time of recording said we should

39:30

nuke Gaza. If

39:34

that's not saying

39:37

that we have nuclear weapons, I don't know what

39:39

is. But another example would have been in 1975. Again,

39:41

that's when these, you

39:45

can find the article on the Guardian's website.

39:47

So this report

39:49

came out that in 1975, there

39:51

was documents that drafted where Israel

39:55

offered to South apartheid South Africa's

39:57

Defense Minister, PW, both of

39:59

them. that they would offer to sell

40:02

nuclear weapons at that time. I mean,

40:04

this is how many years ago now. So Israel

40:07

has been a nuclear power for a long time and I just wanted

40:09

to bring that up Brett, since you did mention

40:11

about the nuclear program that

40:13

was within South Africa and

40:15

the fact that this was being offered to

40:18

the apartheid regime by Israel kind of tying

40:20

these two threads together.

40:22

Yeah, definitely very important to note. All

40:24

of the external support that apartheid South

40:27

Africa got and a lot of that support came from the US,

40:29

the UK and Israel. But

40:31

let's go ahead and sort of shift towards the

40:34

end of apartheid and then we can kind of discuss some of the differences

40:36

and similarities between what's happening in Palestine

40:38

and what happened in South Africa. I'm

40:41

particularly interested in the

40:44

sort of shift in global opinion, the

40:46

public pressure put on the South African

40:48

apartheid regime, because you

40:50

know, today we have like the BDS movement.

40:53

We have now with this latest sort of

40:55

flare up of slaughter

40:58

that Israel's imposing on Gaza and on Palestinians

41:01

more broadly, you have a huge

41:03

shift in world opinion, even in places

41:05

like the West where, you know, there hasn't

41:07

been that level of Palestinian

41:10

support in the past. And of course, Western

41:12

governments are trying to crack down on it. Zionists

41:14

across the world are very insecure at

41:17

this sort of explosion of

41:19

support for Palestinian liberation, et cetera.

41:22

And I know that public perception shifts

41:24

and public pressure had something

41:26

to do with the end of apartheid in South Africa.

41:29

So can you kind of talk about how the tide

41:31

turned with regards to global

41:33

opinion and some of the external

41:35

pressure put on the apartheid regime

41:38

by, you know, the rest of the world?

41:41

I guess the sort of initial

41:43

event that brought

41:44

attention to

41:47

apartheid side of Africa was a 1976

41:51

useful was that started in Soweto.

41:54

And the

41:56

brutality of the

41:58

response by the...

41:59

the Sada different governments, much like what

42:02

you see happening in Gaza today, is

42:04

what shocked quite

42:07

a few people. And

42:10

the subsequent, despite

42:13

the attempts by the Sada government to keep

42:16

the press out of it like you had in Gaza,

42:19

to stop press reporting on the

42:21

brutality,

42:24

they couldn't prevent that from happening.

42:27

And this continued brutality, this excessive

42:30

response,

42:32

is what drew more and more

42:34

people to the view that

42:36

apartheid is wrong. And

42:38

the way it began to,

42:41

what helped to turn public opinion,

42:44

was in the early, in

42:47

the first half of the 1980s,

42:49

in the 384, the 5, when

42:52

the

42:53

disinvestment movement exploded

42:57

in Europe and North

43:00

America. Students

43:03

in Baden-Fuhr instance demanded that our

43:05

place stop disinvest from South

43:08

Africa. South African

43:11

fruit was, people

43:13

in Ireland didn't want Sada going

43:15

to fruit in the in the silver mover

43:18

shelves of Ireland. In the US,

43:20

where in Gaza, at the time, 84, students

43:24

were demanding that universities sell

43:27

their shares in companies with subsidies

43:29

in South Africa.

43:32

So it

43:33

was that, those

43:36

protests in the 83, 84, 85, which those protests, those

43:41

actions is

43:43

what, and the exposure of what was going on in

43:45

South Africa, is what turned

43:49

the

43:51

attention to

43:55

South Africa,

43:56

and also turned the public opinion against

43:59

apartheid in South So

44:01

when talking about BDS, I also want

44:03

to mention listeners, if you're a listener

44:06

of Rev. Left, but not Gorilla History, we've already

44:08

recorded an episode which will be

44:10

released sometime in the near future. It depends

44:12

on one of these two episodes will come out

44:15

first, but an episode on BDS specifically,

44:19

so in the Palestinian context.

44:22

So if you're interested in that, we have a really

44:24

great episode coming up. So make

44:26

sure you look on the Gorilla History feed wherever you get your

44:28

podcasts. But

44:31

when we look in the US, it's

44:33

really interesting in the case of BDS,

44:36

we have this example of peaceful,

44:39

nonviolent resistance against

44:42

apartheid in the case

44:44

of Palestine and in South

44:46

Africa. And we saw, as

44:49

you mentioned, Ashley, that in the South

44:53

African context, BDS tactics were

44:57

very successful in turning public

44:59

opinion and in many ways kind of soften

45:02

the bulkhead for the actual changes that came

45:04

into dismantling

45:06

the legal apartheid regime that

45:08

was in place. In the United States today,

45:11

with regards to BDS measures

45:14

against the so-called state of Israel,

45:17

we have incredible

45:19

pushback against BDS. Even

45:21

when I was in university

45:23

during my undergrad, there was constantly

45:26

proposals to ban BDS on

45:28

campus. And fortunately,

45:31

well, I was there and those never went through.

45:33

And we had our pretty vibrant BDS

45:35

community on our campus where we were

45:38

completely boycotting any Israeli

45:42

products, as well as companies that

45:44

had investments within Israel.

45:46

But

45:47

we now have, this has

45:49

only ramped up in more recent years, to

45:52

the point where entire states in the US

45:55

make employees, public

45:57

employees, sign loyalty. oaths

46:00

that they will not subscribe

46:03

or ascribe to BDS tactics

46:06

in their capacity or in their private

46:09

life while they're employed as a public

46:11

official. They have school teachers in

46:13

various states that are required to sign these oaths

46:15

that they will not carry out BDS tactics

46:18

in their private life. You know, we're not talking about

46:20

like using their institution

46:22

as a mechanism for BDS. We're talking about

46:25

this individual cannot be a proponent

46:27

of BDS and their private life while

46:29

they are a teacher, for example, in various

46:31

states. And some people actually were fired for that.

46:34

We have other instances

46:36

where even coming out in support of BDS

46:38

is being threatened to be criminalized in

46:41

various states like Florida, you know, because

46:43

everything always starts off in Florida

46:45

these days. But we

46:48

have this incredible pushback to

46:50

utilizing BDS as a tactic to

46:52

fight against apartheid in the case of

46:55

the so-called state of Israel and occupied Palestine.

46:58

I'm curious

47:00

because I wasn't alive back, you know, I

47:02

was born after apartheid legally

47:04

fell. So I'm curious if

47:07

and I know Brett, you're also older than me. So you

47:10

might be able to answer a little bit in the US context.

47:13

And actually, you might be able to answer more in

47:15

kind of the, you know, the South African

47:17

and I know you were in Zimbabwe for quite

47:19

quite some time at this

47:20

point as well.

47:22

What the kind of pushback was

47:24

to utilizing BDS against South

47:27

Africa was because in the case of

47:29

Israel, we see incredible pushback

47:32

by Israel's Western backers.

47:34

There was also a pushback against the movements

47:39

to boycotts apartheid in South Africa. And

47:42

that came in the form of argument that look,

47:45

are needed in

47:47

order to

47:49

one,

47:50

provide jobs

47:52

for

47:53

Africans and blacks in South Africa

47:56

to

47:56

it's the

47:59

the investments

48:01

provide progress and development

48:04

for South Africa.

48:05

And then of course, then came

48:08

the next argument, which is the racist

48:10

one. If you compare South Africa

48:12

to the rest of Africa, South Africa is really well

48:15

developed.

48:16

So if

48:17

we remove all these investments, then

48:19

South Africa and the blacks, especially the

48:21

blacks who are living there, are going to go

48:23

and end up living like the

48:25

blacks in the rest of Africa, which

48:28

meant road

48:30

infrastructure or collapse, economy

48:34

or collapse, production or collapse.

48:37

So

48:38

that was the kind of ideological pushback

48:44

that occurred.

48:47

It wasn't at this stage where people

48:50

in government offices or anywhere

48:53

else

48:54

were told or made to sign any

48:56

kind of oath or agreement that you're

48:59

not going to engage in

49:03

activity

49:06

against the part of South Africa. And I'm talking

49:09

about being in some bar where. But

49:12

being in South Africa meant that those who did were

49:14

usually

49:15

those

49:18

who

49:21

were employed.

49:23

The employees at the time found some

49:25

kind of an

49:27

excuse or reason to end their agreement.

49:29

That was the

49:32

punishment that they faced

49:34

within South Africa. Yeah. So

49:37

one thing I want to discuss, I want to make sure

49:39

that we touch on are some of the interesting

49:41

differences between apartheid

49:44

South Africa and the current situation in

49:46

Palestine. We touched on many of the similarities.

49:48

We've shown how apartheid exists in both.

49:51

We've talked about the importance of land, the exploitation

49:53

of labor, the history of European colonialism

49:56

and how all these things are present in one way or

49:58

another in both of these. examples.

50:01

We've even talked about the public pressure as something

50:03

that is still trying to be generated against

50:05

the Israeli occupation and is making great

50:08

strides. But there's also important

50:10

differences and you know one

50:12

of the differences that jumps to my mind off

50:15

the top is the percentage

50:17

differences of the colonizing

50:20

force and the indigenous peoples. In

50:23

Palestine right now all

50:25

things considered it's pretty equal. The amount

50:28

of you know it's like 50-50 more or

50:30

less and in South Africa

50:32

it was a little bit different and perhaps

50:35

this might also contribute

50:37

and I could be wrong on this one but that might also

50:39

contribute to the relative

50:41

lack of armed struggle

50:44

and violence as well given that there was

50:46

this really meaningful percentage

50:49

differences between the two opposing

50:52

camps whereas in the context

50:54

of Israel and Palestine it's pretty equalized

50:56

but I'm sure there are some other differences as

50:58

well and maybe you can correct me if I said anything wrong

51:01

about about the percentages as well.

51:03

But yeah if you could just talk about the important

51:05

differences between apartheid

51:07

South Africa and what's

51:10

happening in Palestine.

51:15

In terms of anything at all just any of the differences

51:17

that you see we talked about the similarities I'm just wondering

51:20

do you see any serious differences

51:22

between the two.

51:24

For me yes they are.

51:25

So if you look at what happened on the 7th

51:27

of October

51:29

that was quite a quite a spectacular

51:32

operation

51:33

carried out by Hamas

51:36

and the importance is that in

51:38

South Africa at the time there

51:42

were not

51:43

ever

51:45

during apartheid there were never that kind

51:47

of military operation at

51:49

that level at that scale.

51:53

There was how it's involved with the

51:58

successful spectacular military operations.

52:02

That's not at all.

52:04

So that's the first difference. The second

52:06

is,

52:07

if you look at what they

52:09

call the homelands, the Bandarsthal,

52:12

so those were the areas where

52:14

the Black African population was relegated

52:17

to. So

52:19

if they weren't working, they

52:21

would have to go and live in those

52:23

areas which is in the countryside.

52:27

There could only be in the town if they had employment.

52:31

So if

52:32

you take Cape Town, for instance,

52:34

you have

52:36

Kailitra, you have

52:39

Gugunetu,

52:40

you have Salipi area. So

52:43

in these areas, they

52:45

are within Cape Town.

52:47

So if you work,

52:49

say, for instance, in the Central Business District,

52:52

or in one of the industrial areas,

52:54

it's simply made

52:56

up of public transport

52:58

in Kailitra or Filipe, wherever,

53:00

and taking a bus to work. After

53:03

work, you take a bus by phone. But

53:06

it's different in, so

53:09

you have the working

53:11

class that lives in the

53:13

same geographical area

53:16

as in the same city that

53:18

they're working. Whereas

53:20

in Gaza,

53:23

I suspect it's different. You

53:25

live in Gaza, you then have to go through

53:27

security checkpoints. To

53:30

come out of Gaza into another

53:32

area, designers occupied Palestine

53:34

Sanborn, called ISA,

53:36

and

53:38

you're going to work there.

53:40

And then when you go back home, it's the same thing you

53:42

go through as security checkpoints.

53:45

So in

53:49

a part of the Sadaq website didn't have those kinds

53:51

of security checkpoints. Now

53:53

again, yes, the roadblocks, but nothing

53:56

that you see in

53:58

Gaza and probably the West Bank. as well.

54:01

So

54:02

there you have the working class

54:05

of Israel,

54:06

the Arab working class

54:08

that does not live in Israel,

54:11

but lives either in the West Bank or

54:13

in Gaza. So it lives in a different

54:15

area

54:17

and has to

54:18

walk or commute to

54:20

get to work and go back home.

54:22

So that is another important difference.

54:26

Those are probably the two, yeah, so those two are probably

54:29

the two important differences

54:32

between apartheid

54:33

South Africa and apartheid Israel.

54:36

One thing that I want to make sure that we touch on is

54:39

the sentiment towards Palestine

54:42

and apartheid Israel in South

54:45

Africa, because South Africa does

54:48

have this experience that we've been discussing

54:50

throughout this episode. And we've

54:52

seen that relations between South Africa

54:55

and Israel at times in recent years have

54:57

been relatively strained. For example, in South Africa,

55:00

sorry, South Africa recalled

55:02

its ambassador to

55:04

Israel in 2018. And now I believe

55:07

just today, again, November 6, at

55:10

the time of recording, just recalled

55:12

all of their diplomats from Israel.

55:15

That was just in the news this morning, my

55:17

time anyway, might have been last night for

55:19

you, Brett. So

55:21

we have seen strained tensions. And I'm

55:24

wondering more about not the governmental

55:26

relations, which we can kind of

55:28

see, you know, they have to toe the line. But

55:31

at the other hand, you know, they do have this

55:33

this kind of strained relationship, and

55:36

have to kind of bow to popular sentiment at times.

55:39

I'm curious of what the popular

55:41

sentiment actually is within South Africa,

55:43

like on the ground, because the people

55:45

in South Africa have this experience

55:47

of living under apartheid and seeing the

55:49

structures of apartheid, and

55:51

also can see with their own eyes, what

55:54

is going on in Palestine. And as

55:57

we said, it's not exactly the same. So I think that's a really

55:59

good question. situation. There are differences

56:01

in the context of Palestine and South Africa,

56:04

but the you can

56:06

certainly see reminiscences of

56:09

the apartheid experience in South Africa. And I'm

56:11

wondering if that in any way

56:13

is coloring the perception of

56:15

people in South Africa and driving

56:18

it towards any particular direction

56:20

or not. I don't know. So, you know, what

56:22

is your perception of the feeling on

56:24

the ground in South Africa towards Palestine

56:27

and Israel?

56:30

Generally, the feeling is

56:33

in favor of Palestine.

56:36

Because of the similarities in

56:39

the land dispositions, the

56:42

similarities of apartheid, what's

56:45

happening in Palestine is

56:47

close to the hearts of many

56:49

South Ashkibs.

56:52

If you look at Cape Town, I think, must

56:55

have been about 2015-2016. I can't remember the

56:59

exact date

57:01

now. If you look at the

57:04

protests that have occurred in Cape Town and

57:06

the numbers at each protest,

57:09

the protests in favor

57:11

of Palestine against what

57:13

was happening in Gaza, that historically

57:16

was the largest march

57:18

that Cape Town has seen,

57:20

if not then certainly in the top three.

57:23

So that gives you an idea as to the sentiments

57:26

that that someone has for

57:28

Palestine. You

57:31

stated what the government

57:34

has just done, which

57:36

is a big

57:37

hypocrisy given that the

57:39

very same government, while it's calling the

57:41

ambassadors, sells

57:44

weapons to the Israeli regime.

57:47

But the South

57:54

Africa is outside the government. So

57:58

what I'm looking for? So, Sunil

58:00

Society has a very strong

58:03

connection with Palestine

58:06

and they

58:08

would be able to interview people

58:10

in or from Palestine

58:12

at meetings and

58:14

so forth.

58:15

And just a couple of days

58:18

ago, the

58:19

main

58:21

government controlled broadcasting

58:25

company interviews one

58:28

of the

58:29

officials from Hamas

58:31

on South Africa in Tel

58:34

Aviv, which of course horrified

58:36

local Zionists' orders here in South Africa.

58:40

So yes, and so in

58:43

South Africa there's this ongoing

58:46

photos that are taking place at local

58:48

levels

58:49

every

58:50

single week

58:52

in favor of Palestine

58:55

and against what is going on

58:58

in Gaza.

58:59

So yes,

59:02

and we – yeah. Yeah,

59:06

so we have just a couple – two

59:08

more questions to close out this

59:10

discussion. You've been very generous with your time and we deeply

59:13

appreciate that. One of the

59:15

questions I have to wrap up this

59:17

conversation and then Henry can ask one is

59:19

about the – we mentioned it earlier. You sort of alluded

59:22

to the legacy of apartheid still

59:24

living on. And there is some sort of – sometimes

59:26

this naive sense that since

59:29

apartheid fell that something

59:31

like justice or something like equality

59:34

has sort of been achieved in

59:36

South Africa when in some instances that

59:39

may be true and in many other instances that certainly

59:41

is not the case. So can you talk

59:43

about the continued legacy of

59:46

apartheid in South Africa and

59:48

how it shapes ongoing injustices in

59:50

the country to this day?

59:52

Okay.

59:53

So let's start off with what has been achieved.

59:56

I mean – Yeah, it's not

59:58

true to say that nothing was achieved.

59:59

achieved.

1:00:01

So what was achieved is you

1:00:03

can live wherever you want to live and

1:00:06

have pursued the kind of job in the career

1:00:08

that you want to pursue. You

1:00:12

have the right to vote. So

1:00:13

those are the achievers. In

1:00:16

terms of those living in the Tardjans,

1:00:18

you have had those who

1:00:20

had harlots built for them. That

1:00:23

is an achievement. But what has

1:00:25

not

1:00:26

been achieved, what has not changed, is the

1:00:29

social apartheid.

1:00:30

So those who live in the Tardjans,

1:00:33

by experiencing poverty levels

1:00:36

of deprivation worse than under

1:00:39

apartheid. During

1:00:41

the lockdown because of Covid

1:00:44

in 2020-2021, there were people

1:00:46

who, because

1:00:49

they were working,

1:00:51

because they didn't have

1:00:54

a social grant, had no access to income,

1:00:57

people literally starved to death.

1:01:01

That hasn't changed.

1:01:02

The fact that when people

1:01:04

protest against

1:01:06

a lack of houses in the area, when

1:01:09

they protest against not having running

1:01:12

water or electricity or a

1:01:15

stable, consistent

1:01:18

sky, when they protest that

1:01:21

they are met with

1:01:23

the heavy hand of the police,

1:01:26

producing armored vehicles with

1:01:28

the Brad gear, that

1:01:30

hasn't changed.

1:01:32

We have a situation where the schools in the

1:01:34

Tardjans, particularly the

1:01:36

blood friendships,

1:01:37

aren't all the same. A situation

1:01:40

where three-quarters of high

1:01:42

schools in South Africa don't have a library,

1:01:46

that hasn't changed.

1:01:47

So on

1:01:48

the one hand,

1:01:50

things

1:01:55

are the same or worse than what

1:01:58

they were under apartheid.

1:02:00

And this is why South

1:02:02

Africa,

1:02:04

now after 1994,

1:02:06

had the title of the protest

1:02:08

capital of the world,

1:02:09

and rightly so, because

1:02:12

of the worsening

1:02:15

social and living conditions of

1:02:17

the black majority of South Africa, the working

1:02:20

class majority of South Africa. Yeah,

1:02:22

so to close out this conversation,

1:02:24

when looking at this

1:02:27

kind of analysis that you've provided

1:02:29

in that last answer, and also accounts

1:02:31

of other people who have analyzed South

1:02:33

Africa and how many

1:02:35

of the vestiges and structures of apartheid

1:02:38

have perpetuated themselves. And today, or had

1:02:40

slightly changed form and have perpetuated themselves

1:02:42

into the present day, even long after, 29

1:02:46

years after the formal end

1:02:48

to legal apartheid in South Africa. Many

1:02:52

scholars have called it an unfinished

1:02:54

revolution. Not

1:02:56

that it was really a true revolutionary

1:02:59

struggle, but in terms

1:03:01

of being anything like a socialist revolutionary

1:03:03

struggle or anything along those lines. But

1:03:06

in terms of when apartheid

1:03:09

legally fell, many

1:03:12

of the struggles just ended at

1:03:14

that point. And that allowed

1:03:16

for the entrenchment of these apartheid-like

1:03:18

structures into the current day.

1:03:21

And so using that

1:03:23

knowledge of this kind of unfinished

1:03:26

project of the dismantling of apartheid,

1:03:29

what can you take

1:03:31

from that experience and try

1:03:33

to apply to thinking about the

1:03:36

Palestinian example? Of

1:03:38

course, we have to be slightly optimistic, because

1:03:40

otherwise, you know, we look at the news all of the time,

1:03:43

and we get very depressed about what's happening

1:03:45

at all times. But let's be optimistic

1:03:48

and think about the day in

1:03:50

which apartheid and the settler

1:03:53

colonial state falls, because

1:03:55

inevitably, you know, justice

1:03:58

will be achieved and liberation for the Palestinian

1:04:00

people will be achieved in time. That

1:04:03

is, of course, you know, us being optimistic

1:04:05

and always trying to keep that

1:04:07

revolutionary optimism. So

1:04:10

upon the day for Palestinian

1:04:13

liberation, what are the lessons that

1:04:15

they should take of this experience from South

1:04:17

Africa of this kind of unfinished

1:04:20

dismantling of apartheid

1:04:23

when they go about ensuring that

1:04:26

the apartheid-like structures that are

1:04:28

in place within occupied

1:04:31

Palestine today are not perpetuated

1:04:33

into the future? Okay,

1:04:36

just a

1:04:37

couple of quick answers, almost step-laces. So

1:04:40

number one

1:04:41

is

1:04:42

don't disband your organization

1:04:46

because they think you've been liberated.

1:04:49

Number two, don't

1:04:51

trust the government.

1:04:53

Say it's going to do things. And

1:04:55

number three, keep

1:04:57

on fighting as though

1:04:59

you haven't been liberated.

1:05:01

Keep on fighting so that you

1:05:03

have a decent, acceptable

1:05:06

standard of living,

1:05:08

acceptable, decent living

1:05:10

conditions

1:05:12

and working conditions. Once

1:05:14

you have those, then you can say, okay,

1:05:17

this is what we've achieved. Can we

1:05:19

do anything extra in addition

1:05:21

to that? Yeah, that's just my sort of

1:05:23

very brief answer. Yeah, yeah,

1:05:26

wise words. Thank you so much, Ashley,

1:05:28

for coming on for sharing your knowledge with us.

1:05:31

We deeply, deeply appreciate it being

1:05:33

so generous with your time. I know it's pretty late

1:05:35

where you are. So thank you again. Before

1:05:38

we let you go, though, can you let listeners know where they

1:05:40

can maybe find you, your work

1:05:42

online and any other recommendations or

1:05:44

last words you would like to offer anybody listening?

1:05:47

I mean,

1:05:48

we, well, I haven't really set up anything

1:05:50

online. But

1:05:54

anyone who wants to contact me

1:05:57

via email is welcome to do so.

1:05:59

Can I give you my email now? Okay,

1:06:02

so it's H A

1:06:05

S H

1:06:07

and then

1:06:08

F O FREDDY

1:06:10

A T A A R at gmail.com

1:06:14

and you're welcome to email me and ask me anything

1:06:16

that you like and I will answer you

1:06:18

or try to

1:06:19

help you any way that I can. Wonderful,

1:06:22

and we will link to that in the show notes

1:06:24

so people can easily reach out to you. Henry,

1:06:26

before we go, do you want to let listeners know where they can find

1:06:29

you and your work online? Of

1:06:30

course, listeners, you can find me on Twitter

1:06:33

or what used to be called Twitter at Huck1995

1:06:36

H U C K 1 9 9 5 and

1:06:38

of course I would like to recommend everybody

1:06:41

subscribe to Gorilla History wherever

1:06:43

you get your podcasts. Obviously

1:06:45

you like listening to Brett because you're listening to

1:06:47

either Gorilla History or Revolutionary

1:06:49

Left Radio right now, so if you're on the Revolutionary

1:06:53

Left Radio feed and you're not on the Gorilla

1:06:55

History feed, Brett is one of the three

1:06:57

co-hosts of the show, so you might as well subscribe

1:07:00

to

1:07:00

it over there. And

1:07:02

I'll link to that in the show notes as well. Alright, thank

1:07:05

you again, Ashley. Talk to you soon. Thank you to everybody

1:07:07

that listens. Love and solidarity. Thanks,

1:07:10

Henry. Thanks, Mitch.

1:07:10

Thank you very much.