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hello, Malcolm Gladwell here. On this

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season of Revisionist History, we're

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going... podcast has ever gone before.

0:31

In combination with my three -year

0:33

-old, we defend the show

0:35

that everyone else hates. I'm

0:38

talking, of course, about

0:40

Paw Patrol. There's some things

0:42

that really piss me off when it

0:44

comes to Paw Patrol. It's pretty simple.

0:46

It sucks. If my son watches

0:48

Paw Patrol, I hate it. Everyone

0:50

hates it, except for me. Plus,

0:53

we investigate everything from why

0:55

American sirens are so invariably loud.

0:57

to the impact of face

0:59

blindness on social connection, to the

1:01

secret behind Thomas' English muffins,

1:03

perfect nooks and crannies. And

1:05

also, we go after

1:08

Joe Rogan. Are you

1:10

ready, Joe? I'm coming

1:12

for you. You won't want

1:14

to miss it. Listen to Revisionist History

1:16

on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1:18

wherever you get your podcasts. From

1:25

the Center for Investigative Reporting and

1:27

PRX, this is Reveal. I'm

1:29

Al Edson. Close

1:31

to 70 % of 4th graders in

1:33

the U .S. are not proficient readers.

1:35

Senator Freeman, the floor is yours. Mr.

1:37

Chairman, thank you. And from state

1:39

capitals. My bill requires the science of

1:41

reading. We need to improve reading in

1:43

Wisconsin. To school districts. We have

1:45

gotten this wrong in New York and

1:47

all across the nation. There's been a

1:49

big push over the last couple years

1:51

to rethink the way schools teach

1:53

kids to read. 25 states

1:56

have passed new laws. One

1:58

of the reasons for that push is a podcast.

2:01

Emily Hanford had a podcast that

2:03

dropped last week. Emily Hanford's recent

2:05

podcast that has taken the nation

2:08

by storm. There's a podcast out there

2:10

I'd recommend people potentially listen to called Sold

2:12

a Story. It's

2:14

called Sold a

2:16

Story. In 2023, we partnered

2:18

with Soul to Story, an education

2:20

reporter, Emily Hanford, to bring you an

2:22

episode investigating how reading is taught

2:24

in American schools. It didn't seem like

2:27

they were really teaching them to

2:29

read. It seemed like they were teaching

2:31

them to sound like they could

2:33

read. And I said to my son's teacher,

2:35

I was like, this isn't how we learned how

2:37

to read, like, meaning me and her. This

2:40

isn't how we did it, right? Like, this can't

2:42

be right, right? You know, there's kids sinking

2:44

everywhere, and they're looking for help, and it's It's

2:46

on us. Sold a

2:48

story showed how educators had been

2:50

sold an idea about how

2:53

kids learned to read. And

2:55

that idea was wrong. Now

2:58

schools across the country are

3:00

getting rid of materials and

3:02

methods based on outdated ideas

3:04

that the podcast exposed. And

3:06

Emily and the team at APM Reports

3:09

are still on the story. They've

3:11

been putting out incredible episodes about

3:13

where we go from here because

3:15

It's one thing to get

3:17

rid of things that don't work, but

3:20

it's a different challenge to

3:22

come up with something that does.

3:25

So Emily is back with us, and she's going

3:27

to start by telling us about a rare

3:29

school district in America, a school

3:31

district where nearly every child is

3:33

a good reader. A

3:36

few years before the Sold His Story podcast

3:38

first came out, I met Karen Chenoweth

3:40

at a conference. You and I sat next

3:42

to each other at lunch. We didn't

3:44

know each other. We hit it off immediately. We

3:47

were both education reporters, and we were

3:49

both kind of obsessed with reading

3:51

instruction. I think I asked you what

3:53

you were working on, and you started telling me,

3:55

and I was very excited. I knew

3:57

more about Karen than she knew about

3:59

me. For years, she'd been

4:01

writing books about schools. I'd been reading

4:03

her books. And in one of

4:06

those books, she told the story of a

4:08

school she visited back in 2008, a

4:10

school in a small city in eastern

4:12

Ohio, a place called Steubenville. I'd

4:14

never been there, I'd never heard of

4:16

it. When she got there, she could

4:18

immediately see that it was a city in

4:20

rough shape. It was one

4:22

of the saddest places I've

4:24

ever been to. Steubenville's

4:27

an old steel town. The mills

4:29

had shut down, jobs had vanished. There

4:31

was a rusting hulk

4:33

of a steel mill. There

4:36

were abandoned buildings,

4:39

a lot of rubbish, very

4:41

little business downtown. The

4:44

stores were empty. In

4:46

the heart of the depressed downtown was the

4:48

elementary school Karen was there to see. A

4:51

school where the majority of kids were

4:53

from low -income families. It

4:55

was astonishing to me

4:57

how amazing that elementary

5:00

school was. All

5:02

the third graders at this school

5:04

were passing the state reading test

5:06

every single one. You would have been

5:08

amazed, Emily. I mean, every kid knew

5:10

how to read. They had a

5:13

kid they were so proud of who

5:15

had been measured with a very

5:17

low IQ and he was reading. I

5:19

mean, like, this was an amazing

5:21

school. The sad fact is

5:23

schools with lots of low income

5:25

students usually have low reading scores.

5:28

But according to state test score

5:30

data, this school was one of the

5:32

best in Ohio. Karen

5:34

often thought about that amazing little

5:36

school. wondered how things were

5:38

going in Steubenville. And then

5:40

one day, in 2016, Karen

5:42

arrived at work and opened up the New York

5:45

Times. And there was an

5:47

article about a huge new data

5:49

set from Stanford University that

5:51

allowed you to compare academic achievement

5:53

at schools across the country. This

5:56

was new. Before, you

5:58

could only compare schools within a

6:00

state. This new data

6:02

allowed you to compare schools across

6:04

state lines. The New

6:06

York Times story included a graphic. The

6:09

graphic had thousands of dots on it. Each

6:11

dot was a school district. My

6:13

eye was immediately drawn to

6:15

this little dot on the

6:18

upper left corner. The dots

6:20

in the upper left were the poor school

6:22

districts where the kids were doing well. And

6:24

the dot Karen was looking at was

6:26

out there all alone, doing far

6:28

better than the others. And

6:30

that was Stupendville. So

6:35

I decided to go to Steubenville to find

6:37

out how they did it. I'm

6:43

headed to East Garfield Elementary,

6:45

which most people just call

6:47

East. It's the school

6:49

here with the most students living in poverty.

6:53

The school is next to

6:55

a public housing project. As

6:57

I get out of my car, I see little

6:59

kids with big backpacks emerging out

7:01

of the morning fog from the projects.

7:04

Kids who live in the neighborhood walk to

7:06

school. Others take a bus or get

7:08

dropped off. Morning girls. Have

7:10

a good day. When I arrive,

7:13

teachers, staff, and a couple of

7:15

local police officers are greeting students

7:17

at the door. Are you a policeman? Of

7:20

course I am, my friend. Just

7:22

inside the school entrance, there's a

7:24

girl standing in the hallway, looking unhappy.

7:26

What's wrong, girl? Come here. She's

7:28

a little blonde girl with skinny legs,

7:30

wearing a dirty tan skirt and

7:33

sneakers. She's upset about

7:35

her hair. It's tied

7:37

up in a messy ponytail, uncombed, hair

7:39

kind of spilling out everywhere. Apparently,

7:41

she's often upset about her hair when she

7:43

arrives at school. And what's the story? She

7:45

just doesn't get it done at home the

7:48

way she wants? Yes, at

7:50

all. She doesn't get it done

7:52

at home. She says she doesn't have,

7:54

mom doesn't have time. So we

7:56

make time. This is Nancy Beatty,

7:58

a teacher at the school. Ms.

8:00

Beatty bought a brush and hair ties that

8:02

she keeps at school just for this

8:04

little girl. And she fixes the

8:06

girl's hair when she needs it. Sometimes

8:09

the girl needs socks, too, or

8:11

a sweatshirt. There's

8:14

a clothes closet for that. We also

8:16

have, like, shoes, socks, and stuff in

8:18

here. This is Jennifer Blackburn. She's an

8:20

instructional coach at East and the keeper

8:22

of the clothes closet. Oh, it's winter

8:24

boots. Yeah, winter boots, sneakers. I

8:27

just went and bought sneakers and socks. I stuck them in

8:29

here. How often do you

8:31

have to give kids clothing? Every

8:33

day. Every day. We

8:36

have one parent homes, no parent homes,

8:38

kids that are coming from the homeless

8:40

shelters. The

8:45

staff and teachers at this school

8:47

know that they have to meet

8:49

kids' basic needs first. That children need

8:51

to be fed and clothed and

8:53

cared for in order to learn. And

8:55

the staff and teachers here clearly care

8:57

deeply about their students and take the

9:00

time to do the little things that

9:02

matter, like fixing a girl's hair or

9:04

giving her socks. This

9:07

is true in many high -poverty schools

9:09

I visit. The kids have a

9:11

lot of basic needs and the staff does

9:13

a lot to try to meet those needs.

9:15

But in a lot of those schools, a

9:18

lot of the kids aren't learning how to

9:20

read very well. In

9:22

Steubenville, they are. Ready?

9:27

My tour guide is Jen Blackburn,

9:29

the instructional coach and keeper of

9:31

the clothes closet. She takes

9:33

me first to preschool. Let

9:35

me make sure my friends are sitting

9:37

nice, crisscross applesauce, hands in their

9:39

lap. The preschoolers are on the rug,

9:41

looking up at their teacher, eagerly.

9:43

She's assigning jobs for the day. I

9:45

pulled the air, so the air, you're my

9:48

cool kid today. The

9:50

air is beaming. Yeah,

9:54

you're gonna be my Cool today, so what does

9:56

my cool do friends? You're

9:58

going be the line leader. You're right.

10:00

All right. Line leader is clearly

10:03

the best job, but there

10:05

are other jobs. Ryan, do

10:07

you want to be at the door holder,

10:09

the electrician, teacher's assistant or caboose? Remember,

10:12

put it in sentence I.

10:16

Thank you. Very nice sentence.

10:19

These preschoolers are constantly being

10:21

reminded to speak in full

10:23

sentences. Oh, put it in a sentence.

10:28

Thank you. She said, I would like to

10:30

be the door holder. In preschool,

10:32

you want to get kids really

10:35

good at talking because that's going

10:37

to be a huge help when

10:39

they start learning how to read.

10:42

Knowing lots of words, how to pronounce

10:44

them, what they mean is essential.

10:47

And teaching kids to speak in full

10:49

sentences helps them learn grammar and

10:51

syntax, how words and phrases are

10:53

arranged in the English language. This

10:55

also helps with reading and with

10:57

writing, too. The early

11:00

childhood program is really the

11:02

foundation for successful readers. This

11:04

is Lynette Gorman. She's the

11:06

principal of West Elementary in

11:08

Stupendville. A lot of oral

11:10

language in those early preschool

11:13

years. There's a preschool program

11:15

at all of Steubenville's elementary

11:17

schools. That's not unusual

11:19

to find a preschool inside an elementary

11:21

school. What's unusual is

11:23

how many kids here go

11:25

to preschool. Across the

11:27

country, fewer than half of children

11:30

attend a preschool program. In

11:32

Steubenville, it's nearly

11:34

80%. Children can start when they're

11:36

three years old, and it's free for

11:38

the poorest families. Everyone else

11:40

pays $100 a month. You

11:43

heard that right, just $100 a

11:45

month for all -day preschool. So

11:47

where are we going now? I'm

11:51

back with Jen Blackburn on our

11:53

tour of reading instruction in Steubenville. Kindergarten

11:56

is where formal reading instruction

11:58

begins. And there's something

12:00

kind of unusual going on here too,

12:02

with how kids are taught the letters

12:04

of the alphabet. The teacher

12:06

is holding up cards

12:09

with letters on them. And

12:12

the kids are saying the sounds

12:14

of the letters. But they're not saying

12:17

the names of the letters. This

12:19

is a particular way of teaching

12:21

letters. It's sometimes referred to

12:23

as the sound's first approach. And

12:26

it's not the way letters are typically

12:28

taught in American schools. Typically,

12:31

kids are taught the names of letters first.

12:34

The alphabet song. I

12:40

remember learning the alphabet song. I still sing

12:42

it in my head when I need to

12:44

remember the order of letters, like when I'm

12:46

alphabetizing books. You need to

12:48

know the names of letters and the order

12:50

of the alphabet to be a literate person. But

12:53

what do you need to know to learn

12:55

how to read? To

12:59

learn how to read, you don't need to

13:01

know the names of the letters. In

13:04

fact, the letter names can be

13:06

confusing. For example, the

13:08

most common sound of the letter

13:10

E in English is not E. It's

13:13

EH as in bed and

13:15

fed. And the most

13:17

common sound of the letter I

13:19

is not I. It's IH as in

13:21

sit and pin. The

13:24

idea in a sounds first

13:26

approach is to focus children's attention

13:28

on the sounds of letters. So

13:30

when they're trying to read a word,

13:32

the sounds are what immediately come to

13:34

mind. There's no interference,

13:37

no confusion with the names of

13:39

the letters. Like I

13:41

said, it's unusual. I

13:44

even had my parents kind of question it. Amy

13:47

Crow teaches kindergarten in Steubenville. They were like,

13:49

why are you... teaching them, don't they have

13:51

to know what the letter is called? And

13:53

I said, actually, to read the word, it's

13:55

more important for them to know the sound

13:57

first. So my son was 20 months old,

13:59

and he was naming letters like, ah, buh. And my

14:01

dad was frustrated by it. He was like, no,

14:03

it's not. It's called A. And I'm like, no, dad,

14:05

I did this for a reason. And this is

14:07

what I do in my school, and this is what

14:09

works. There's actually

14:12

some disagreement among cognitive scientists about

14:14

whether it's better to start

14:16

with the letter names or the

14:18

letter sounds. The bottom

14:20

line is that kids need to learn

14:22

both. And it's not

14:24

that kids in Steubenville aren't taught the

14:26

names of letters. They are. It's

14:28

just that there's an emphasis on letter

14:31

sounds to try to reduce clutter,

14:33

to minimize the chances that a child

14:35

will be confused. In

14:37

other words, there's an emphasis

14:39

on how children learn and what

14:41

might be difficult for a beginner. This

14:44

is one of the things that stood out to me

14:46

in Steubenville. There's a focus here

14:48

not just on what kids learn, but

14:51

on how they learn. It's

14:57

one thing to agree that reading

14:59

instruction has to include sounding

15:01

out letters, also called phonics. It's

15:03

another to ask, how are

15:05

you teaching phonics? Emily says,

15:08

Steubenville stands out because they

15:10

are paying attention to how

15:12

kids learn. And the alphabet

15:14

is just the beginning. When I tell

15:16

some of my other colleagues that may

15:18

be at other schools that this is

15:20

what I do, they would say, you

15:22

kidding me? That's next

15:24

on reveal. If

15:30

you're listening to this show, you care

15:33

about stories that investigate the truth

15:35

and impact millions. I'm Danielle

15:37

Elliott and on climbing the walls,

15:39

I'm digging into the rise of

15:41

ADHD diagnoses among women. I'm

15:43

exploring what happens now that the world is

15:45

finally starting to catch up with what

15:47

women have been saying for decades. I

15:49

don't know what happened, but it's like

15:51

the algorithm heard the conversation and figured out

15:54

like a black woman with ADHD. We

15:56

still get misdiagnosed with depression or they

15:58

see depression, but they don't see the ADHD

16:00

component to it or the comorbidity.

16:02

Join me as we explore why

16:04

women have been left out of

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the ADHD conversation for so long.

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We're talking to mental health experts, sharing

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real stories, and uncovering the truths

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listen to Climbing the Walls, search

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donation to make your gift. Hey,

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this is Michael Montgomery, a producer and

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our genuine fans out there. You never

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care about this show. From

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the Center for Investigative Reporting

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and PRX, this is Reveal.

17:37

I'm Al Letton. 40

17:39

% of fourth graders in the United

17:41

States can't read, even on a

17:44

basic level. But in Steubenville,

17:46

Ohio, virtually all the kids are

17:48

learning to read well. Reporter

17:50

Emily Hanford and her colleagues from

17:52

the APM Reports podcast sold a

17:54

story, took a close look at

17:56

Steubenville to see what they're doing right.

17:59

Think about what happened on page two,

18:01

and I want you two to come

18:03

up with a nice retell. Here's Emily. We're

18:06

back at East Garfield Elementary

18:09

in a first grade classroom. Notice

18:17

how the kids are speaking in

18:19

full sentences. They

18:24

haven't mastered perfect grammar

18:27

yet. And

18:29

they still need reminders about what to do

18:31

when they come to a word they don't

18:33

know. But

18:35

by first grade, these kids are putting

18:37

it all together. They're reading

18:40

and writing. I

18:42

saw a lot of writing built into the

18:44

reading instruction in Steubenville. What does your sentence

18:46

say? Can you read it? Sipping

18:48

did not help Scott.

18:51

The students just read a story about a boy who's

18:53

trying to get rid of his hiccups. Now

18:55

they're writing about it. Each student

18:57

has a partner whose job is to

18:59

provide feedback on their sentences. And

19:02

what are you pointing out around? Araya

19:04

thinks her partner's sentence should

19:06

include what Scott was sipping. Scott

19:09

was sipping water. Do

19:11

you see what she's telling you about

19:13

what is missing? The

19:17

boy erases his sentence

19:19

and writes sipping water

19:21

did not help Scott.

19:24

Araya gives him a

19:26

high five. There's

19:28

a lot of this in Stupendville.

19:30

Kids working together in pairs and

19:32

small groups, actually teaching each other.

19:36

One moment that stood out to me was in

19:38

a third grade class. The

19:40

kids were taking turns

19:42

reading a book about

19:44

rainforests. I was walking

19:46

around the classroom and

19:48

as I approached one

19:50

group, A girl was

19:52

giving her classmates some

19:54

instructions. It's

20:04

kind of a blunt critique,

20:06

but the boy seems unfazed, gives

20:08

it another shot. This

20:22

teamwork thing, kids working together

20:24

and actually teaching each other,

20:27

it's a central component of how

20:29

Steubenville teaches reading. They

20:31

call it cooperative learning. And

20:33

I was kind of skeptical at first. When

20:36

you look at the research on

20:38

effective reading instruction, what you see over

20:40

and over are references to the

20:42

importance of direct instruction. That's

20:45

when a teacher explicitly teaches students how

20:47

to do something, like how to sound

20:49

out a word. Putting

20:51

kids together in small groups and having them

20:53

teach each other is kind of the

20:55

opposite of that. But in

20:57

my tour through Steubenville schools, I

20:59

did see teachers provide direct instruction, quite

21:01

a bit of it, even in

21:03

preschool. But there's always

21:05

this cooperative learning time built in

21:07

too. What

21:11

I realized is

21:13

that cooperative learning

21:16

provides something really

21:18

important. something kids

21:20

need to become good readers.

21:23

It provides a lot of time for

21:25

practice. One

21:27

of the concerns I hear

21:30

about schools trying to do

21:32

the science of reading is

21:34

that sometimes there's not enough

21:36

time for practice, that schools

21:38

may now be providing too

21:40

much instruction. and not giving

21:43

kids enough time to actually

21:45

read. So

21:48

here are my observations so

21:51

far on reading instruction in Stupendville.

21:54

The district has preschool and most

21:56

children go. There's a

21:58

big focus on spoken language

22:00

skills. There's phonics instruction, there's

22:03

a lot of writing, not just

22:05

reading, and there's direct instruction. But

22:07

there's also cooperative learning, and that

22:09

provides a lot of time for practice.

22:12

And perhaps one of the

22:14

most unusual things about how

22:17

Steubenville approaches reading instruction is

22:19

that every teacher teaches reading.

22:21

Like, even this guy. This

22:25

is Josh Meyer.

22:28

He's wearing shorts and a hoodie with the sleeves cut

22:30

off. He looks like a football coach,

22:32

and he is. He's also the

22:34

gym teacher at one of the elementary schools. But

22:37

in the mornings, he's not in the

22:39

gym. He's teaching a second grade reading

22:41

class. All right, here we go. Fall

22:43

along as Mr. Mayer reads. Biggest apes,

22:45

gorillas are the biggest world. When I

22:47

tell some of my other colleagues that

22:49

may be at other schools that this

22:51

is what I do, you know, in

22:53

the morning they would say, you kidding

22:55

me? But it's part of

22:57

the deal when you teach in

22:59

a Steubenville Elementary School. Gym teachers,

23:01

music teachers, science teachers, they

23:04

all teach a reading class. And

23:06

here's why. If you have a

23:08

lot of teachers to teach reading, the

23:11

reading classes can be really small. I

23:13

was in one that had only six

23:16

kids. We turned closets into classrooms

23:18

so that we can teach anywhere we can

23:20

teach in this building. This is Jen

23:22

Blackburn again, my tour guide. At one time

23:24

this was my office, we changed it

23:26

into a classroom. And

23:28

it's not just that every

23:30

teacher teaches reading. It's

23:32

that every student in the school

23:34

has reading class at the same

23:36

time. Every morning from 9

23:39

to 10 30, that's the reading

23:41

block. Having all the kids

23:43

in a school in reading instruction

23:45

at the same time means students can

23:47

be assigned to a reading class

23:49

based on their skill level, regardless of

23:51

what grade they're in. So

23:53

if a second grader is still reading

23:55

on a first grade level, she goes to

23:57

a first grade class during the reading

23:59

block. And if a first grader is

24:01

reading on a second grade level, she goes

24:03

to a second grade class. This

24:06

way of grouping kids is rare

24:08

in American schools. In fact,

24:10

it's controversial. Standard

24:12

practice is for all kids to

24:14

get instruction at their grade level.

24:17

The idea is to prevent kids from

24:20

getting stuck behind. But

24:24

Steubenville has a system to make

24:26

sure that doesn't happen. I'm

24:29

just going to show you around the

24:31

data tool that our teachers use. Jen Blackburn

24:33

pulls up a window on a computer

24:35

screen. You can click on an individual student.

24:37

These are first graders. It shows every

24:39

child at her school and where they are

24:41

in reading and not just what grade

24:43

level they're on, but more detailed information about

24:45

the specific skills they've mastered and what

24:47

they still need to learn. So I can

24:49

look at this student right here. She

24:51

clicks on a first grader who's behind. It's

24:54

about two months into the school year and

24:56

he's still working on reading skills from the end

24:58

of kindergarten. So during

25:00

the school's reading block, he goes to a

25:02

class with other kids who are still

25:04

working on the end of year kindergarten skills.

25:07

The underlying philosophy here is moving

25:10

a child ahead before he's mastered

25:12

the basics is like trying to

25:14

build a house without finishing the

25:16

foundation. And so what are you

25:18

going to do? So this kid is

25:20

currently behind, not way behind, but a little

25:22

behind. Yeah, he's pretty behind in comparison

25:24

to his peers. So he

25:26

is placed in a... There's a plan

25:28

to get this child reading on grade

25:30

level. He's in a small reading class,

25:32

so he can get plenty of attention from

25:34

a teacher. And he gets tutoring during

25:36

the school day. In fact,

25:39

every first grader at this school gets

25:41

a reading tutor until they've mastered

25:43

all the first grade material. And as

25:45

kids reach mastery and their tutors

25:47

are freed up, the first graders

25:49

who are still behind get even more

25:51

tutoring. I asked Jen

25:53

Blackburn how much tutoring the boy

25:55

we've been talking about could end

25:57

up getting. Probably 25, so

26:00

once 40 minutes, sometimes twice a

26:02

day, four days a week. That's

26:04

a lot of tutoring. But

26:06

that's what it could take to get this

26:09

kid up to grade level. Where

26:11

does Steubenville find all these tutors? Some

26:13

are paid staff, others

26:15

are community volunteers, and a

26:17

lot of them are students, college students from

26:19

a local university, and students from

26:21

Steubenville High School. Can I

26:23

listen in for a couple minutes? You

26:26

want to read this page

26:28

for her? A high school student

26:30

is tutoring a first grader

26:32

at a small table tucked into

26:34

the corner of a hallway.

26:36

All the men have who can

26:38

to help. All

26:41

the tutors get training, so

26:43

kids get consistent instruction. But

26:46

this high school tutor was already

26:48

familiar with how Steubenville teaches reading. It's

26:50

the way she was taught when she

26:52

was a little kid in Steubenville schools. Yeah,

26:56

same books. Steubenville has

26:58

been teaching kids to read

27:00

the same way for 25 years.

27:03

I think consistency may be one of

27:05

the secrets of their success. Something

27:08

else that's critical for success? Attendance.

27:12

Attendance is huge. A

27:14

school can offer fantastic reading

27:16

instruction, but kids aren't going

27:18

to get that instruction if they're not in school. So,

27:22

Steubenville puts a lot of effort

27:24

into making sure kids show up.

27:26

I am Dr. Allen. Suzanne Allen

27:28

is the Dean of Students at East. She's

27:31

in charge of attendance. If a

27:33

kid is absent, it's her job to find

27:35

out why right away. So

27:38

when I receive the attendance cards from the

27:40

teachers, if a parent hasn't called, I make

27:42

sure that I give them a call. Hi,

27:45

this is Dr. Allen. The idea

27:47

is rapid response. I'm just calling

27:49

to check on your son. She's

27:52

calling about a kindergartner. He wasn't

27:54

feeling well on Monday, but now

27:56

it's Friday. He's been absent for

27:59

days. No word from his mom. Dr.

28:01

Allen gets voicemail every time she

28:03

calls. She's worried about this kid.

28:05

This is a homeless child. If

28:07

he doesn't show up on Monday, she says she'll

28:10

drive to the homeless shelter and find out what's

28:12

going on. She does this a

28:14

lot, knocks on doors, brings kids to school

28:16

if she has to. She does

28:18

other things to get them there too.

28:20

I have attendance contests. It's called Stay

28:22

in the Game. Homerooms

28:24

compete against each other for the

28:26

best attendance. Every

28:29

morning, Dr. Allen gets on

28:31

the intercom to announce the homerooms

28:33

that had perfect attendance the

28:36

previous day. The

28:41

homerooms with the best attendance

28:44

win prizes. They can choose from

28:46

a frosty, they can choose from ice

28:48

cream sandwich, extra recess or just a little

28:50

extra time on the computer. My

28:52

first reaction to the attendance contest

28:55

was, isn't getting little kids to

28:57

school more of a parent thing?

28:59

Like, don't you need to motivate the

29:01

parents more than the students? Not

29:04

necessarily. A lot of our kids

29:06

live right here. They live in the housing

29:08

projects next to the school, and

29:10

this first grade teacher, Julie Badestell, says

29:12

a lot of kids are responsible

29:14

for getting themselves to school, and their

29:16

younger siblings too. They are

29:18

getting themselves up and getting themselves

29:20

dressed and getting themselves to school,

29:22

so I think what we're doing

29:24

here is making them want to

29:26

come, pushing them to be responsible,

29:29

get out the door, and get over here. Absenteeism

29:33

is a big problem in

29:35

many American schools, especially since

29:37

COVID. In Ohio, more

29:39

than a quarter of students were

29:41

chronically absent last year. That means

29:43

they missed close to a month of

29:45

school, sometimes more. But

29:47

Steubenville has one of the lowest

29:49

absenteeism rates in the state. They're

29:52

getting kids to school and teaching

29:54

them to read. Here's

29:56

what it sounds like by the time students are

29:58

in middle school. After a while,

30:00

he thought he could make out the shape

30:02

of the mountains through the haze. This is

30:05

a fifth grade English class. Middle

30:07

school starts in fifth grade here.

30:09

He could see there was nothing

30:11

ahead of him, nothing but emptiness.

30:13

I told you that students in Steubenville

30:15

are grouped for reading instruction based

30:17

on their skill level. What

30:19

you're hearing now is the

30:21

lowest level English class at the

30:24

middle school, and they're all

30:26

reading on grade level. There

30:28

are no kids here. who are

30:30

behind. Stubinville

30:37

is a place full of

30:39

confident readers and confident teachers.

30:43

I asked teachers here if they ever

30:45

feel unequipped to teach a child how

30:47

to read. They looked at

30:49

me funny, like they didn't understand the

30:51

question. No. You have not faced a kid

30:53

who were like, I don't know what to

30:55

do. No, I've never felt that way. I

30:57

do feel very equipped, prepared, and felt that

30:59

I could get that job done. In

31:05

Steubenville, they've been successfully teaching

31:07

kids to read for more than

31:09

two decades. With that

31:11

kind of success, you'd think the state

31:13

of Ohio would be trying to get other

31:15

districts to be more like Steubenville. Instead,

31:18

last year, the state told Steubenville

31:20

it was going to have to

31:22

adopt a new approach. Why get

31:24

rid of something that is proven

31:26

to work? That's next

31:29

on Reveal. This

31:41

program is brought to you by

31:43

Audible. Listen to the new audible original,

31:45

The Big Fix, a Jack Bergen

31:48

mystery, starring John Hamm as the

31:50

hard -boiled private eye cracking his latest

31:52

case of murder and mystery. Four years

31:54

after he left the FBI, Jack

31:56

Bergen is pulled back into the fray

31:58

by an old flame who persuades him to

32:00

a homicide and clear the name of

32:02

an immigrant accused of murder. Conspiracy

32:04

abounds as a Mexican -American community

32:06

is pushed out in order to

32:09

build Dodger Stadium in this story

32:11

inspired by the real -life battle of

32:13

Chavez -Raveen. Co -starring Ana de la

32:15

Reguera as an activist out for

32:17

justice, Omar Epps as Jack's

32:19

partner in solving crime, and Alia

32:21

Shawkat as an intrepid reporter racing

32:23

to break the story, plus a

32:26

cameo from John Slattery as a

32:28

shady executive, created by John

32:30

Mankiewicz and directed by Aaron

32:32

Lipstadt. Listen to a gritty and

32:34

winding tale that delivers both

32:36

meaning and mayhem with a solid

32:38

punch. Go to audible.com, The

32:40

Big Fix, and listen now. From

32:43

the Center for Investigative Reporting

32:46

and PRX, this is Reveal. I'm

32:48

Al Lehtzen. In

32:50

1969, a young woman

32:52

named Nancy Madden graduated from high

32:54

school in Minnesota and went off to

32:56

Portland, Oregon to attend Reed College. Reed's

32:59

a very odd place. I

33:01

mean, it's where you go to

33:03

be very intellectual and very

33:05

disruptive. She was a

33:07

child of the 60s, protested the

33:09

Vietnam War, marched for civil

33:11

rights, and what Nancy was most

33:14

interested in disrupting was education. She

33:17

wanted to figure out how to

33:19

make schools better, especially for black

33:21

children. The disparities

33:23

in opportunity for children

33:25

were just so obvious

33:27

at that time. In

33:29

college, Nancy met a guy,

33:31

a fellow student named Bob Slavin, and

33:33

he was interested in the same thing.

33:36

Our first date was to go on

33:38

a walk to sort of talk about,

33:40

how do we improve education? What can

33:42

we do? Nancy and

33:44

Bob got married after college. They

33:46

moved to Baltimore. They got PhDs.

33:48

And by the 1980s, they were

33:50

working together at a research center

33:52

at Johns Hopkins University, studying how

33:55

to teach kids in the most

33:57

effective way possible. And one day,

33:59

they at Johns Hopkins eating lunch,

34:01

and a former member of the

34:03

Baltimore City School Board joined them

34:05

at their table. Nancy

34:08

says they struck up a conversation. And

34:10

so we're talking about how would you

34:12

change the schools? Things were

34:14

not good in Baltimore schools. At

34:16

the time, Baltimore City schools were failing

34:18

half of their high school students.

34:20

I mean, they were just dropping out.

34:23

And he said, this is wrong.

34:25

This is not good enough. and the

34:27

school board member issued a challenge.

34:29

Here you are, Johns Hopkins

34:31

University. You know, you're so smart.

34:34

What would you do? He wanted to

34:36

know what Nancy and Bob would do

34:38

if it was their job to fix a

34:40

school system. That conversation inspired

34:42

them to create a program called

34:44

Success for All. One way to

34:46

understand how Success for All came

34:48

about and what it's trying to

34:51

achieve We weren't able to interview

34:53

Bob. He died in April of

34:55

2021. But he talked

34:57

about success for all's approach in

34:59

this 2009 video. Consider an

35:01

old story about a little town

35:03

that decided to build a

35:05

gorgeous playground on some land that

35:07

it had. The problem,

35:10

however, was that this beautiful

35:12

land was at the edge of a

35:14

cliff, and it occurred

35:16

to the town fathers that

35:18

there was a danger that children might

35:20

fall off the cliff. So

35:22

the local playground board had

35:24

huge debates. Should we

35:26

build a fence at the top of the

35:28

cliff, or should we put an ambulance at

35:30

the bottom? I

35:33

think if you think about what

35:35

that story is telling you, you'll

35:37

realize that to put an ambulance

35:39

at the bottom of the cliff

35:41

is the way we do so

35:43

much ordinarily in schools. Part

35:46

of the idea of Success for All is

35:48

to try to make sure that children don't

35:50

fall off the cliff in the first place.

35:53

The Success for All program is more

35:55

than just a reading curriculum. It's

35:57

what's called a whole school reform model.

35:59

And all the things we've heard about

36:01

in this episode that are getting such

36:03

impressive results in Steubenville, Ohio, the

36:06

focus on preschool and language

36:08

development, the Sam's first approach

36:10

to teaching letters, the way

36:12

they group kids, the gym teacher

36:14

teaching reading, the direct instruction,

36:16

the cooperative learning, the tutoring, the

36:18

attendance, they're all part of

36:20

success for all. And there

36:22

are lots of studies that show it's effective

36:24

when it comes to getting kids to be

36:26

good readers. So, It was a

36:28

shock to folks in Steubenville when

36:31

Ohio made a list of approved

36:33

reading programs last year, and the

36:35

success for all program wasn't on

36:37

it. And ironically, the

36:39

reason Ohio decided to make that

36:41

list in the first place was

36:44

sold a story. The podcast from

36:46

APM Reports. The host

36:48

of that podcast, Emily Hanford, has

36:50

the story of how it all happened.

36:54

I've gotten a lot of emails from

36:57

listeners since Soul to Story first came

36:59

out. I have a fat

37:01

file folder full of actual letters,

37:03

too, sent in the mail. One

37:06

of these letters came from Matt

37:08

Huffman. At the time, he

37:10

was president of the Ohio State

37:12

Senate. The letter is

37:14

three handwritten pages. Huffman

37:16

said he was, quote, invigorated after

37:18

listening to the podcast. He

37:21

could see there was a problem with how

37:23

reading was taught. and he wanted to fix

37:25

it. He wasn't the only one. Ohio

37:27

had a lot of people who listened to our podcast.

37:30

This is my co -reporter, Christopher Peake. I got

37:32

a call just a couple months after Soul of

37:34

Story came out from one of the top

37:36

education officials saying all the executives in the department

37:38

were listening to Soul of Story and they

37:40

want to do something about it. A

37:46

few weeks after Chris got that

37:48

call, the governor gave his

37:50

State of the State address. I'm

37:52

calling for a renewed focus on

37:54

literacy. He's saying a big proposal

37:56

is coming. We're going to make changes

37:58

to how reading is taught in Ohio. Two

38:00

weeks later, legislators introduced a bill. And

38:02

this bill says the department has to come

38:05

up with a list of programs that

38:07

are aligned with the science of reading. The

38:09

bill passed in June. The governor signed

38:12

it into law on the 4th of July.

38:15

Now, it was up to the

38:17

Ohio Department of Education to make

38:19

a list of approved reading programs.

38:21

My name is Dr. Melissa Weber -Mayer.

38:23

And it's this person's job to

38:25

figure out how to do that.

38:28

I work for the Ohio Department

38:30

of Education and Workforce. She

38:32

and her colleagues have to come up

38:34

with this list quickly. We had a

38:36

very short window to get things in

38:38

place. The law said schools

38:40

in Ohio must be using a

38:42

program aligned with the science of

38:44

reading by the end of the

38:46

following school year. But Melissa

38:49

Weber -Mayer and her team decided

38:51

it wasn't feasible for them

38:53

to do their own analysis of

38:55

whether programs were grounded in

38:57

research. We actually did

38:59

not review efficacy studies. We

39:01

looked at what our other state

39:03

colleagues who already had similar laws

39:05

had done. They looked at

39:08

other state lists. A program

39:10

could make a case to get approved

39:12

in Ohio if it had already been

39:14

approved by another state. At

39:16

least nine states have recently

39:18

created new science of reading lists.

39:21

And there was another way to

39:23

make it onto Ohio's list. Have

39:25

you been reviewed by Ed Reports? It's

39:30

an organization that Ohio and other

39:32

states have been looking to for

39:34

help. when figuring out what programs

39:36

count as the science of reading.

39:39

My co -reporter Christopher Peake has

39:41

been digging into ed reports. It's

39:45

a non -profit, and it's only 10 years

39:47

old, and it's already built up a

39:49

lot of clout by billing itself as a

39:51

kind of consumer reports for curriculum. So

39:54

what exactly does ed reports do? They

39:56

review curriculum. Teams of teachers actually do

39:58

the reviews. review not just reading curriculum,

40:01

but math and science curriculum too. and

40:03

they rate it. It's a red,

40:05

yellow, and green system, so if you're a

40:07

publisher, you want an all -green rating from Etterports. Nearly

40:09

2 ,000 school districts have used its

40:12

reviews to make their purchasing decisions, and

40:14

the organization says 40 publishers have actually

40:16

adjusted their products in response to Etterports'

40:18

review. This is bigger than just the

40:20

new statelists. Etterports was having a big

40:22

influence on the publishing industry before sold

40:25

a story and the current conversation about

40:27

the science of reading. And it turns

40:29

out there's a bit of a disconnect

40:31

here, right? Ed reports wasn't set up

40:33

with the science of reading in mind.

40:35

No, it was set up with something

40:37

else in mind, something called the Common

40:40

Core State Standards. 48 states have now

40:42

joined a nationwide partnership to develop a

40:44

common set of rigorous career -ready standards

40:46

in reading and math. Common

40:48

Core is a thing during the Obama administration. It

40:51

was an effort to raise education standards

40:53

across the country. The goal was

40:55

to make sure students in different states

40:57

were learning the same core skills. There

40:59

was a need for new curriculum, and publishers

41:02

put out lots of stuff that they said

41:04

was aligned with the common core standards. But

41:06

there was no one really policing that. And

41:08

that's why Ed Reports was established. To review

41:10

curriculum and say, yes, this curriculum really was

41:12

designed with the common core standards in mind,

41:14

or no, this curriculum wasn't. It's not aligned

41:16

with the new standards. So

41:19

Ed Reports released its first

41:21

reviews in 2015 and it

41:23

becomes very influential very fast.

41:26

But then along comes the science of reading

41:28

and people are starting to ask a

41:30

different question. Not is your

41:32

curriculum aligned with the Common Core

41:34

but is your curriculum aligned with

41:36

the science of reading? Exactly. And

41:39

what I found in my reporting is that

41:41

Ed Reports has given high marks to some

41:43

programs that include strategies for teaching reading that

41:45

are antithetical. to what the science tells us

41:47

about how kids become good readers. So

41:49

say more about that. Do you have an example? So

41:52

I talked to Carrie Courtauld. She was a literacy

41:54

specialist at the State Department of Education in Rhode

41:56

Island, which was one of the first states to

41:58

really try to push for better reading curriculum. Rhode

42:00

Island had looked at reports to come up with a

42:03

list of programs that districts should be using. And

42:05

Carrie had been in the job for just a couple

42:07

of weeks when she had a jaw -dropping moment. I

42:09

was in my cube on

42:11

the... it fourth floor of

42:14

the Department of Ed, and

42:16

I began to go through

42:18

the materials on the approved

42:20

list, and some of them

42:22

had some great evidence -aligned

42:25

instruction, and others I

42:27

started flipping through and

42:29

said, uh -oh. She

42:32

was seeing programs that Todd Kids used

42:34

pictures and context clues to read unfamiliar

42:36

words, instead of just sounding out the

42:38

letters. These queuing strategies, as

42:41

they're often called, are not just ineffective.

42:43

Research by cognitive scientists shows they teach

42:45

kids bad habits that can be hard

42:47

to break. But the queuing strategies

42:49

were in some of the curriculum materials on

42:51

the state list. They were

42:54

on this list that said, go

42:56

ahead and adopt these programs. This

42:59

is what the Rhode Island Department of

43:01

Education stands behind. I think

43:03

to understand how this happened, it

43:05

helps to know a bit about what

43:07

the common core standards are. Yep. The Common

43:09

Core Standards basically lay out what kids

43:11

should know and be able to do at

43:13

each grade level. I have a

43:15

copy of the English Language Arts Standards right

43:17

here. It's 66 pages long. And

43:19

here's an example of one of the standards for

43:22

first grade. It says that a first grader

43:24

should be able to ask and answer questions about

43:26

key details in a text. But

43:28

the Common Core Standards don't say anything about

43:30

how to do that. They don't say

43:32

anything about how to teach. They just say

43:34

what to teach. And

43:38

you can see how this could be in conflict

43:40

with the science of reading. Because one

43:42

of the big things the science of reading

43:44

has revealed is that how you teach

43:46

kids matters. But Ed reports

43:48

was basically agnostic on how things

43:50

were taught. What Ed

43:52

reports essentially wanted to see was

43:54

that a curriculum was covering everything

43:57

in that 66 -page standards document

43:59

you've got there. Right. Even

44:01

some of the people who are once supporters of

44:03

Ed reports are recognizing this conflict now between

44:05

the science of reading and the common core standards.

44:10

I talked to David Lieben. He's an educator

44:12

with more than 50 years of experience.

44:14

I've been involved in education since shortly after

44:16

the Civil War. As you can tell,

44:18

he likes to joke around a bit too.

44:20

David Lieben worked with Ed Reports when

44:22

it was first set up. He thought the

44:24

organization was needed because that probably mentioned

44:26

earlier, publishers slapping common core stickers on their

44:28

products and no one checking to see

44:30

is this program really living up to that

44:32

label. But David Lieben

44:34

now says Ed Reports methodology

44:36

is flawed. Success is dependent

44:38

upon how we align with standards

44:41

as opposed to how we align

44:43

with science and reading. He says

44:45

one of the biggest problems with

44:47

ed reports is that some programs

44:49

that are backed by rigorous research

44:51

are not getting those coveted all

44:53

-green ratings. They've got good studies

44:55

that show they're effective, but

44:57

ed reports doesn't factor studies into

45:00

their ratings. That's not part of

45:02

their review process. So

45:04

ed reports was designed to look at

45:06

does your program cover all of the

45:08

standards, not does your program deliver

45:10

on the science of reading. Right. And

45:12

I should note, too, that David Lieben

45:14

and Keri Kurto, the woman from Rhode

45:16

Island, they're both now associated with other

45:18

organizations that do their own curriculum reviews.

45:21

I want to ask about Success for All,

45:24

the program they use in Steubenville. Success

45:26

for All has never been reviewed by

45:28

ed reports. Why not? Well,

45:30

Success for All is not just a reading

45:33

curriculum. It's a whole school reform

45:35

program. And ed reports doesn't review

45:37

whole school reform programs. A spokesperson told

45:39

me that reviewing just the reading

45:41

curriculum wouldn't have provided a complete picture

45:43

of success for all, so Ed

45:45

Reports didn't review it. And without a

45:47

review from Ed Reports, success

45:49

for all wasn't getting on most state

45:51

lists. When

45:54

the superintendent in Steubenville first heard

45:57

about Ohio's new science of reading law,

45:59

she wasn't worried. I have no

46:01

big deal. SFA is the science of

46:03

reading. This is Melinda Young. It's

46:05

naïve as I guess I was. I

46:07

really just never gave it a

46:09

second thought. When I first

46:12

visited Steubenville, the news was still kind

46:14

of sinking in. They were

46:16

hopeful that success for all might eventually

46:18

make the list. State officials said

46:20

a second review process would be

46:22

coming. But they were already looking at

46:24

new reading programs. We are proactive

46:26

here. This is Trisha Sokoch, the

46:28

principal of East Elementary. We're not just

46:31

sitting here waiting. We're getting ready

46:33

just to be prepared. They

46:35

were looking at the programs

46:37

on the state's initial list. And

46:39

there are a lot of

46:41

school districts who are using approved

46:43

curriculum already. That's

46:45

Lynette Gorman, another principal in Steubenville.

46:48

She and her colleagues were looking up

46:50

test scores in the school districts that

46:52

were using an approved program. Close

46:55

to a third of districts in

46:57

Ohio were already using something on

46:59

the state's initial list. But only

47:01

one of those districts was doing

47:03

better in reading than Steubenville. It's

47:05

a tiny district with a very low

47:07

poverty rate. The teachers in Steubenville

47:09

were having a hard time understanding why

47:11

they might have to stop using success for

47:13

all. I don't want a new program.

47:16

Why get rid of something that is proven

47:18

to work? I would be upset about

47:20

it. They were upset, but they weren't panicking.

47:22

Either way, we'll be fine. We're a

47:24

strong district. We'll get through it if we

47:26

have to. And in the

47:28

end, Steubenville didn't have to find a

47:30

new program. Because

47:35

the state of Ohio updated

47:37

its list. In January

47:39

2025, a year after

47:41

the initial list was published, the

47:43

Ohio Department of Education added

47:46

success for all and some other

47:48

programs too. I emailed

47:50

the education official you heard earlier to

47:52

find out what happened. She

47:54

said programs that failed in the

47:56

first round were allowed to reapply. This

47:59

time, the state didn't rely on

48:01

ed reports. They did their

48:03

own review of success for all. And

48:07

the program was approved. As

48:09

soon as I go out the news, I

48:11

send it out to all of the principals. This

48:14

is Melinda Young, the Steubenville Superintendent.

48:17

It was on a Friday evening and

48:19

it was crazy because they all

48:21

responded back within, I would say, five

48:23

minutes. It was like relief. Yes,

48:26

relief. Ohio's

48:28

list was updated in time

48:30

to save Success4All in Steubenville.

48:33

But we know of at least two

48:35

schools in Ohio that had already

48:37

decided to drop Success4All before the state

48:39

approved it. And as

48:41

hundreds of school districts in the state

48:43

were looking for new reading programs

48:45

over the past year, not a single

48:47

one reached out to the Success

48:49

for All organization about adopting their program.

48:52

The decisions schools and districts are making

48:54

now will affect how reading is taught

48:56

for the next five, ten years, maybe

48:58

more. This is my co -reporter, Christopher Peek

49:00

again. And a lot of money is

49:02

being spent. Ohio gave out more than

49:04

$50 million to help districts pay for

49:06

new reading programs. And most of that

49:08

money is going to programs that got

49:10

good ratings from Ed Reports. So

49:13

can you just start off by introducing

49:15

yourself? Sure. I'm

49:17

Eric Hirsch and I'm the Chief

49:19

Executive Officer of Ed Reports. Eric

49:22

Hirsch started off our interview

49:24

by talking about the history

49:26

of the organization. It'll be

49:28

our decade anniversary in March

49:30

and it's been fairly amazing.

49:33

But he hesitated a bit when I

49:35

asked about the influences organization is having

49:37

right now. I've seen ad reports come

49:39

up a lot in state regulations or

49:41

state laws about, you know, you

49:43

should be looking to ad reports to figure out,

49:45

is this a good program or not? And

49:47

I was wondering what you make of that. Is

49:49

that a good thing to have ad reports

49:51

in state regulations? How do you feel about that

49:53

personally? We say ad reports is a place

49:55

to start. He repeated this several

49:57

times in our interview. Ad reports is

49:59

a place to start. Ad reports is

50:01

a place to start. We believe curriculum

50:03

is a place to start. And Ed

50:05

Reports is a place to start. He

50:08

told me Ed Reports shouldn't be the

50:10

final say on what the best reading

50:12

programs are. Ed Reports provides information from

50:14

the lens of our educator reviewers, and

50:16

we believe it's helpful to districts and

50:18

states in understanding what's in the materials.

50:21

Before Ed Reports, there was not a

50:23

lot out there, not much to

50:25

go on. But the

50:27

thing is, a lot of states and

50:29

school districts have been treating Ed Reports

50:31

as more than a starting point. They've

50:34

been treating it as a gatekeeper, a

50:36

place that can tell them which programs

50:38

are compatible with the science of reading and

50:40

which ones aren't. And Ed Reports has

50:42

been telling teachers its reviews were based on

50:44

that science. I found a blog post

50:46

they published in 2023. It said

50:48

Ed Reports has always reviewed instruction

50:50

materials for the science of reading. But

50:52

then critics started pointing to curriculum

50:54

that was getting good reviews from Ed

50:56

Reports, but include the queuing strategies

50:59

that conflict with the science of reading.

51:01

and curriculum that was not getting good

51:03

reviews, but have evidence that showed

51:05

they're effective. And recently, Ed Reports

51:07

has made some changes. They

51:10

now include a science of reading summary with

51:12

the reviews that highlights how well programs

51:14

teach foundational skills. And just

51:16

a few months ago, they changed the

51:18

review tool. Programs that teach the

51:20

queuing strategies will now automatically fail. So

51:23

is Ed Reports going to go back

51:25

and re -review all the reading programs

51:27

they've already rated? No, they've already released

51:29

ratings for 86 reading programs, and they're

51:31

not going to go back and do

51:33

those reviews again. So

51:37

a lesson here seems to be

51:39

that our reporting has put pressure on

51:41

the system to try to do

51:43

better, to do more to make sure

51:45

that reading instruction lines up with

51:47

research. And in the rush

51:49

to do that, states are looking

51:52

at an established organization for guidance. But

51:54

that organization wasn't designed with

51:56

the science of reading in mind.

51:59

Nancy Madden, the co -creator of Success

52:02

for All, told me she doesn't want

52:04

her program to be rated by

52:06

Ed Reports. I don't

52:08

want to validate that approach

52:10

to reviewing what instruction should

52:12

be. It's the wrong approach.

52:14

We need to judge what's

52:16

the outcome. We need to

52:18

look at what is the

52:20

evidence of effectiveness. And

52:22

she's worried that all the talk these

52:24

days about the science of reading

52:26

won't result in better outcomes for kids

52:29

that will look back in a

52:31

few years and say, that didn't

52:33

work. We have to

52:35

maintain the expectation that kids

52:37

really can't succeed. We have

52:39

to remember that kids can

52:41

learn. We can do better.

52:44

There's a way to do it. You could

52:46

be Steubenville. If

52:53

you haven't heard the Sold a Story

52:55

podcast from the team at APM Reports, I

52:57

can't recommend it enough. There are 13

52:59

episodes so far, and Emily and her team

53:01

aren't done. One of the

53:03

things they'll be looking at next

53:05

is how President Trump's cuts to

53:07

the Department of Education and other

53:09

federal programs will affect reading research

53:11

and reading instruction. To

53:13

find out more about their great

53:16

podcast or to get in touch

53:18

with the reporters behind it, visit

53:20

soldastory .org. Emily

53:22

Hanford reported today's episode, along

53:24

with Christopher Peake. Additional reporting

53:26

by Olivia Chilcote, Kate Martin,

53:28

and Carmelo Wally Anone. Curtis

53:31

Gilbert edited today's show. Sold

53:33

a story is supported by the

53:35

Holly Hawk Foundation and the Oak Foundation,

53:38

with additional support from the Ibers

53:40

Group, Esther A. and Joseph Klingenstein Fund

53:42

and the Kenneth Rainan Foundation. Betsy

53:45

Tanner Levine fact -checked today's

53:47

show, legal review by Mark

53:49

Anfanson. Reveals production manager Zulema

53:51

the Great Cobb score and sound

53:53

design by Chris Joolen with additional

53:55

mixing and scoring by the dynamic

53:57

duo Jay Breezy, Mr. Jim Briggs

53:59

and Fernando Maman Yoruda. Our interim

54:01

executive producers are Brett Meyers and

54:03

Taki Teleditas. Our theme music is

54:06

by Camarado. Lightning. Support for Reveal

54:08

is provided by the Riva and

54:10

David Logan Foundation, the John D.

54:12

and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation, the

54:15

Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, the

54:17

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, the

54:19

Park Foundation, the Schmidt Family Foundation,

54:21

and the Hellman Foundation. Support for Reveal

54:23

is also provided by you, our

54:25

listeners. We are a co -production of

54:27

the Center for Investigative Reporting and PRX.

54:29

I'm Al Edson. and remember, there

54:32

is always more to the story.