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Welcome to Rework a podcast by 37

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Signals about the better way to work

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and run your business. I'm your host,

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Kimberly Rhodes, joined by the co-founders of

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37 Signals, Jason Freed, and David Heine

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Meyer Hansen. This week, I thought we'd

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talk about something I know a lot

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of small business owners and entrepreneurs struggle

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with, which is how to choose what

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to work on first or simply picking

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your priorities. This is something 37 Signals

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knows a lot about as we're building

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new products, working on current products. working

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on a new version of Shape Up,

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so many things going on all at the

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same time. So I thought we would talk a

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little bit about some of the ways that we

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choose what to work on first. Jason, I'm going

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to open it up to you. I know you

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recently wrote something about this on your hay world

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and shared some news with the company. So

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you kick it off. Sure. So priorities,

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well, I think the first thing is

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that they don't need to be permanent.

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They're sort of like, what do you

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think is important? What do you think

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is important right? You pick some things, what do you pick?

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You pick the best things you can based on who you have, what

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you want to do, what your thoughts are, what you think you can

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achieve. I think people probably stress too much over feeling like the things

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they pick, now like everything else is off the table, forever, everything else

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is off the table forever, like everything else is off the table forever,

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and so they freak out. This is why we typically work in six weeks

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where we pick things to work on, we commit to that, and we

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get that we choose what to that, and we choose what to, and

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we choose what to, and we choose what, and we choose what, and

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we choose what, and we choose what, and we choose what, and we

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choose what, and we choose what, and we choose what, and we choose

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what, and we choose what, and we choose what, and we choose what,

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and we choose what, and we choose what, and we choose what, and

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we choose what, and we choose what, and we choose what, worry too

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much about maybe picking the wrong thing. There isn't really necessarily a wrong

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thing in that case. It's only six weeks at a time and you

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sort of figure it out as you go. I think that deciding

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like if you're going to, you know,

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build a new product or commit significant

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resources to something, that's a different kind

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of thing. I think even those are

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relatively flexible for most kinds of businesses

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like ours. Obviously if you're Boeing or

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Airbus or SpaceX or one of these, like that's

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a different story. But when you're making software, you

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don't need to run your business as if you

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are a business that has to invest in factories

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and parts and supply chain. You can make things

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up as you go, you can be malleable, you

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can tweak it. you go feel things out see

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where you're headed and decide that when you're into

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something if maybe it doesn't feel right or you

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just don't have enough people or someone leaves and

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you have to change priorities that's okay too priorities

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are not permanent that's the important thing here but

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again you don't want to just keep flipping back

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and forth because then then people freak out that

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then there's uncertainty people don't know what to do

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and I don't think you want to do that

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for example we've been working on two brand new

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products at the same time for a while for

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a while now few months And we just had

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someone leave and we kind of used that

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as a moment to reflect on like, can

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we actually pull this off with one fewer

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person? And we decided no, we probably can't.

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So what we're going to do is just

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pick one of those things that we were

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doing instead of do two. We're going to do

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one. And we're also going to put

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some other resources into something else and

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pause something and kind of shift some

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things around. And it feels right. Like

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you post that message internally. I think that's

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how you know you've picked relatively good priority

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is like people kind of go yeah, actually

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that's what I think we should probably be

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doing anyway. In fact, I thought maybe what

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we were doing before was we're stretched too

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thin or we weren't doing the right things or

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whatever it might be. And of course, sometimes

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you're going to make a controversial call,

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which people have to eventually come around to.

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But I just, I wouldn't freak out about

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it and sit around and have, you know,

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months and have months and months and months

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and months of meetings and I think one

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of the reasons why people can

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have a hard time changing their

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mind is because there's a

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sense of professionalism that comes

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from having a roadmap, having

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made decisions in a grand

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just way at one point and

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set this long timetable. It imparted

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you, you know what you're doing.

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And I can see where someone would

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get that from. When you look

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at the project managers who as

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Jason say have to figure out

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how to shoot rockets to Mars

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Yeah, you probably have to order

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the whatever shamaging Two

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years in advance maybe I mean,

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I don't know anything about rocket science,

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but I can imagine that, right? I

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can imagine when you're building a skyscraper

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that there's just certain planning steps that

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you have to get right and you

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have to get them right early. There's

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a lot of foundational work that you

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have to be spot on with. In

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software, that's not really the case. In

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fact, the opposite is the case, and

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Jason's written about this frequently, that when

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you make decisions far in advance of

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when you're actually going to do the

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work, you know a little. You

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know much less than you would if

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you make that decision as close

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to the point of execution. The

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day before you're going to work

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on a feature, you know so

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much more about that product, about

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what customers want, about the current

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tradeoffs, about who you have, about

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what they're good at, then you

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would if you had made that

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decision nine months ago. Nine months

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ago, it's a guess. It's a guesswork.

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I think that's one of the

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reasons why we've tried, well first

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of all, we don't have to

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try. We have no intention of

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seeming professional, right? Like we're not

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trying to impress anyone, neither Jason

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or I is sitting here in

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a suit. We don't have a

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lot of ceremony to impress other

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people. So we're free to just

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go with, do you know what,

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what works best? And what we

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found repeatedly time and again is

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Jason says. We only do it

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once every six to eight weeks.

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That's the cycle work from shape

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up. That gives teams some permanence

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about the next coming weeks. That

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gives them some room to actually

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implement the things that you want

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them to be working on in

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a wholesome matter where they have

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long stretches of uninterrupted time, all of

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that good stuff. But there's not this

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big backlog of things we have settled

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on will happen in cycle four of

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this year. Not at all. There's the

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next cycle, and then there's just a

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bunch of fleety, floaty ideas that are

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out. there, then maybe we'll make it

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into the next cycle. I often sit

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down and think we're doing a cycle

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planning, oh next cycle, I think I

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want this thing. And then by the

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time the next cycle planning meeting rolls

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around, I don't want that thing at

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all. I haven't even thought about it

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in four weeks. This is the magic of

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reserving dedicated time, right

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in advance of when you're going to

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work on something, and then saying I'm

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not committing to anything else beyond that.

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Screw what looks professional. customers

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sometimes ask for? I mean, I

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think that's fair too. We've occasionally

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gotten... So what does your roadmap

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look like? Do you have a

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12, 18, 24 month roadmap that

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we could take a look at?

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And we always could like, no,

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we don't. We have, well, we're

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going to work on next cycle

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and I'm not even going to

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tell you that, because we

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have a tendency of occasion

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changing, that we're going to

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deliver something. X amount of time

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from now, we have regretted it with

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capital R. It is universally been just

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a bad idea to commit to a

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roadmap as we're committing with less information

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than if we're going to do it

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in time, in part because very often

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that commitment is almost silly.

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The other thing I want to add to this

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is that people always like, well, how can

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you just make it up as you go

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or every six weeks? Like, I don't know,

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how do you make decisions? Like well we

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sit down and think about what we're going

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to do and I'm going to go that's

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what we do too. You guys just do it

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all at once and you think because

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you do it all at once that

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it's magical. But actually you just do

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it along the way. Again like as David

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is saying you know closer to the moment

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just do it again just do it again

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and they're much smaller sessions and

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they're more accurate because you really

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know where you're going to be

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tomorrow. So it's like you can do

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this, you already do this, you can

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make it easier on yourself by now.

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trying to guess the next year's worth of

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work. That's hard. And there's no reason

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to it. There's no reason to do

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that. There's no prize. And people, well,

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you know, we set the roadmap and people

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know what to expect. You can still

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tell them what to expect. You can still

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tell them what to expect. Just more

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frequently, versus imagining what the next

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calendar year is going to look

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like. There's just no really good

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reason. Again, again, unless you have

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a supply chain situation and vendors

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probably are. You do not need to run

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a business as if you're trying to line

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up supply chain. You can make things up

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as you go and it's actually I think

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a much healthier way to do things. And

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it's not a scary thing and

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you're still making decisions and you're

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still being thoughtful and you're still

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thinking things and you're still being

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thoughtful and you're still thinking

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things through and you're still thinking

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about doing it all once in

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the past. I do think this

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idea of choosing priorities every six

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weeks. truly don't understand.

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Like, how do you not have

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a looking forward in two years?

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Here's our big goal and plan.

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People are shocked. They're shocked by

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it. Now, I think there's that. And

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then there's also what I've

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lived under, worked under is

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the extreme opposite. I'm not

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going to commit to anything. The

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boss marches into my office. every Monday

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and he has or she has a

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completely new idea of whatever we should

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be working on. Just this constant thrashing,

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you have multiple things going on at

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the same time. No one seems to

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have any patience to actually stick

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to the decisions that they made and

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to see them through into shipping software.

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So I could also imagine someone working

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in that situation and going like, well,

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be a little careful. Don't just

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give bosses who can't commit to

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something for... two weeks for six

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weeks as we do, the license

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just to bargain with ever half-baked

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ideas that they have. And I

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think for us, that has been one.

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the magical things about shape up. I

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think both Jason and I do have this

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tendency that every Monday a new idea

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pops in in our head and we get

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very excited about it and we want to

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see it put to life as quickly as

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possible. That urgency is part of being a

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founder and I think a very positive part

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of it. But you also need some restraint.

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You need some restraint where you go like,

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oh, I really want to do this. but

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we're halfway through the cycle and if I

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then yank people off something I told them

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three weeks ago, A, they're not going to

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be very happy. B, it's not a very

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productive way to work. If you keep thrashing

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people between projects, they're just going

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to lose time in the trash.

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And C, you may very well

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end up not shipping anything at all.

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So by saying, do you know what? We're restraining

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ourselves that every little idea

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that pops into the head every Monday

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can't... get put into reality right

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away, but every six to eight

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weeks we have an opportunity. And that

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makes it easier. It makes it easier

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to go like, oh, okay, okay,

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like I have a good idea.

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I'll park it only for a

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little while, only until the next

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betting table, and what we find,

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of course, time and again, is

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that the idea you were super

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excited about that week, three weeks

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from now, maybe you're less excited,

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or maybe not. Maybe that idea

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is still just like ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding-ding. I want

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to do this. Right! Now you have

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the answer. Okay, well with that we're

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going to wrap it up. Rework is

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a production of 37 Signals. You can

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find show notes and transcripts on our

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website at 37 signals.com/podcast. Full video episodes

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are on YouTube and if you have

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a question for Jason or David about

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a better way to work and run

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your business, leave us a voicemail at

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708-628-7850. You can also text that number

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or send us an email to rework

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at 37 signals.com.