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An

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Instagram post gets an unexpected boost.

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A TikTok catches in the algorithm. Sometimes

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that's all it takes to launch someone into Internet

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fame. But then what? This

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blew up

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is a new podcast documentary that reveals

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how social media startups is made aid.

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It's a different kind of fame. It's not

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always as glamorous as it looks. From

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Spotify and the ringer podcast not work.

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I will a surprise snack. can listen

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to this blue up on Spotify or wherever you

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get your podcasts.

0:33

Welcome to a jam session special.

0:36

I'm Julia Littman. I'm here with my

0:38

colleague, Amanda Jabbin. Amanda. Hi,

0:40

Juliet. I accidentally introduced

0:43

you for getting what podcast I was on. I'm really

0:45

sorry. Forgive me one it's not our usual time slot,

0:47

you know, so I'm out of my rhythm. You landed

0:49

the plane. You said correct things.

0:52

I this is a dance session special. I

0:54

am Amanda Robbins, and I'm happy to see you.

0:56

I'm I'm really happy to see you. We're here today

0:58

to talk about part one of Harry and Meghan. Or

1:00

I I should say, like episodes one, two, and three of

1:02

Harry and Meghan, the Netflix documentary. And

1:05

I watched all of this

1:07

yesterday, Thursday, the day it came out, but I

1:09

I finished it after

1:11

nine PM PST, which

1:13

is midnight EST,

1:16

which is when Juliet's asleep. And so

1:18

I wasn't -- Hopefully. -- hopefully. Yeah.

1:20

And we've never I guess, we've talked about this a

1:22

little bit. But, like, I try to

1:25

not text you during those hours to

1:27

respect, like, your window. I sometimes

1:29

forget or there's, like, something that's really

1:31

urgent, so I need you to wake up

1:34

you know, have it when you wake up. Like, when

1:36

I texted you being, like, do you remember the plot of last

1:38

Christmas? The movie starring million Clark and Henry

1:40

Golding? Like, I think that was, like, NPM.

1:42

PST times dead in that 1? It was

1:44

heavy gold ink. He was, like, the heart transplant

1:47

or the liver transplant donor who

1:49

allowed Emilie Clark to live. That is what if.

1:51

That was one of the weirdest movies I've ever

1:53

seen. I'll just say my answer is no. I don't

1:56

remember the plot. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

2:00

And also, like, I had forgotten that I sent

2:02

you that text when I woke up. So

2:04

you responded. And I think

2:06

your guess was like, so Henry Golding

2:08

is dead. But I, like, received

2:10

that as a breaking news alert in first

2:12

thing in the morning. So then I googled being like, oh

2:14

my god. Henry Golden, he's okay. He's not

2:16

dead. Anyway, long

2:19

way of saying it didn't take off the way I was hoping

2:21

it was. Yeah. Long way of I'm

2:23

glad to be with you now to be able

2:25

to talk about the second part of this documentary,

2:28

and also to talk about the three hours

2:30

that we spent individually yesterday in

2:32

person. We've had some text conversations but

2:34

we haven't had a face to face. Yeah.

2:37

So episodes one, two, and three

2:39

of Harry and Meghan came out.

2:41

It's directed by Lids Garvis. It

2:45

very roughly follows a

2:47

linear timeline of their relationship

2:50

and with some digressions

2:52

here and there some context

2:54

about both of them. We hear

2:56

from Meghan's mom who have

2:58

never heard to speak before. So that was Doria

3:01

Ragland. We hear from Meghan's niece,

3:03

Ashley Hale, who I didn't know about.

3:05

Me either. That was probably the

3:07

only thing. One of the few things we we like truly

3:10

learned from this is brand new. Hear

3:12

from a few British historians to

3:14

give us context around the

3:16

millennium monarchy and the royal

3:18

family and Britain. We hear from

3:21

more academics to hear

3:23

about the lasting impact

3:25

of the empire and Commonwealth and

3:27

the Queen's legacy. And

3:29

we see a lot of iPhone

3:32

footage of Meghan and Harry from the

3:34

last six years. I will say, as

3:36

just a storytelling device, I thought

3:38

that the iPhone footage worked nicely. It's

3:40

something that, like, affiliate was leveraged in a good

3:42

way just in terms of, like, filmmaking. But

3:44

I guess, like, Should we just do this

3:46

ringer exit service style like Amanda? What's

3:48

your tweet length review? This was

3:50

boring. Sorry. It was it

3:52

was it was long and boring and

3:55

a little bit sour, I

3:57

thought. Which I

4:00

also think that they have every right

4:02

to be. I think that I

4:04

understand why Harry and Meghan

4:07

felt trapped and really upset

4:09

and kinda hopeless

4:11

in in their lives and within the system of the

4:13

royal family and, like, I get it

4:16

and I understand why they

4:19

left And I

4:21

even well, I don't totally

4:23

understand why they're making this documentary. Like, that's

4:25

sort of I do, I

4:26

think, which is ultimately that they

4:28

need money.

4:29

But in order to pay for their

4:31

security and stuff, but there was sort

4:33

of a dissatisfaction running

4:36

through all of this. That

4:39

it wasn't like

4:41

the most fun to be around,

4:43

I would say. Even as I think that

4:45

they are completely justified in

4:47

everything that they did. Yeah,

4:49

I think they certainly do need to work

4:51

to support themselves. Sure. I also

4:53

think that they very clearly, since

4:56

since before they got married felt

4:59

frustrated by their treatment.

5:01

And so I think that the first op literally the

5:03

first opportunity to, like, tell the story they

5:05

wanted it to be remembered, they

5:07

took. You know, one thing that I

5:09

found really interesting about this was

5:12

how present the queen is, the two

5:14

looming figures from Harry's life

5:16

are his mother and

5:18

his grandmother, Diana and

5:21

the queen. Very clearly, that

5:23

the bulk of the making of this show

5:25

was while the Queen was still alive. And

5:27

they even one of the first cards

5:29

says that all of this footage was finished

5:32

by August twenty twenty two, which was a

5:34

very pointed this is before

5:36

the death of the queen. Yes.

5:38

And, right, the queen died a few weeks later.

5:41

And Netflix, like, somewhat famously

5:43

had a very long, quote unquote, ingestion

5:45

period, which is, like, you have to deliver

5:48

like, the show well in advance

5:51

of it airing. And so,

5:53

you know, there were have been so many rumors about

5:55

Harry and Meghan trying to change the show

5:57

in light of the queen's death. But I actually

6:00

just, like, I'm I'm sure there's ways to get around that,

6:02

but, like, legitimately actually, that probably was,

6:04

like, very hard to do if if even

6:06

even true at all? I would say just in terms of

6:08

like q scores, I

6:10

came away definitely

6:13

knowing more having a fuller picture of

6:15

Meghan -- Mhmm. -- than I think I

6:17

had previously and sort

6:20

of like I think understanding her a

6:22

little bit better. But meanwhile,

6:25

I think I found Harry to be like

6:27

so glum that it was sad

6:29

and kind of like honestly hard

6:31

to watch. I think, like, you

6:33

know, it's just really sad.

6:35

I mean, like, Harry is, like, very clearly

6:37

still processing a

6:40

lot of his life experience, which I think is great

6:42

that he's doing. But it's it's really

6:44

totally quite different from where it seems like

6:46

Meghan's at, and they're just I I

6:48

definitely think I, like, understand their relationship a

6:50

little bit better, which I think they also were trying

6:52

to do. But at the same time,

6:54

I found this to be, like, a pretty

6:56

unremarkable nearly three

6:58

hours. Yes. And

7:01

so one thing that I've noticed

7:04

people, like, the the chatter, the day

7:06

after chatter is that people

7:08

think the documentary might be

7:10

saving some more notable stuff

7:12

for parts four, five, and six, which is

7:15

frankly sort of daunting to think that

7:17

there is, like, three more hours of this. You

7:19

know, I I know Jane Meghan. I just called you

7:21

Meghan. They haven't even gotten married yet

7:23

for for the documentary. I I

7:25

know. It ends like the day

7:27

before. Day before. This is

7:29

slow, and this is in a lot of ways

7:31

an example of like Netflix panic. Of

7:33

like, we are just we're not gonna cut an episode.

7:35

We're gonna, like, keep your eyeballs on

7:37

this screen for as long as possible,

7:39

which, you know, I guess, if

7:42

you if you have these big names, I

7:44

suppose that makes sense business wise.

7:46

So, you know, maybe there

7:48

is more naming

7:51

in part two. Maybe there

7:53

are more revelations in

7:55

part two. I really

7:57

doubt

7:57

it. I do as well. I thought it was

7:59

sort of interesting

8:02

I'm

8:02

not sure I expected it at all

8:04

from this. And so and

8:06

it was interesting to see that other people did

8:08

and that a lot of people people were watching this

8:10

just being like, okay. Well, like, why aren't they

8:12

naming names? Which

8:14

is sort of an interesting I

8:16

I wanted to ask you as a consumer

8:19

of reality television, whether

8:22

that affected how you watched this

8:25

or received this at all at all?

8:27

It's a interesting question.

8:29

I think the I think

8:32

the crown has a much bigger

8:34

impact on how I watch this than

8:36

than anything else. Especially, I think,

8:38

especially seeing

8:40

majors, like, reenact I've

8:42

seen Johnny having seen Johnny Lee Miller reenact

8:44

some of

8:44

really, like, crucial moments from the end of Dan his

8:47

life recently. And from

8:48

that chapter, as Prime

8:51

Minister majors was really like, that sort

8:53

of, like, connected the best for me, which maybe

8:55

this is just my own bias because I'm

8:57

so anti Dominic West as Charles.

9:00

But I think just

9:02

also, like, being a heavy consumer

9:04

of Meghan and Harry's content. Like,

9:06

that also really impacted this

9:08

for me. Like, it's kind of it's kind of more

9:10

like being a tabloid reader more

9:12

than anything else, which is sort of similar honestly

9:14

to, like, how the real housewives is

9:16

experienced and the Kardashians at this point were, like, most of

9:18

the storylines already covered. Right. It's a

9:20

rehashing from a prospect a very

9:22

specific perspective. Like, for

9:24

example, I don't know if he listened to archetypes, but

9:27

the audio of Meghan the commercial that Meghan

9:29

took issue with that she talks about, I think an

9:31

episode two, maybe episode 1, is also an

9:33

episode one of archetypes and sort of, like,

9:35

for her, that's a foundational

9:37

episode whether that's foundational

9:40

to how she's always thought about herself or

9:42

how she's thinking about herself now. I

9:44

don't know. But that is very

9:46

very specific. It's almost like it's like her

9:48

own stump speech for explaining her world.

9:50

Yes. Absolutely. That is it's she

9:52

is told it many times beyond

9:55

archetypes. And I think that's kind of like

9:57

in the package that, you know, if

9:59

you're doing like an entertainment tonight

10:01

feature on her or whatever that like,

10:03

becomes it is part of the I

10:05

mean, myth makes it sound like I think

10:07

it's, like, fictional, which I don't. But,

10:09

like, the the

10:11

story, the the presentation

10:13

of Meghan. Much like many

10:15

other politicians, she's crafting a

10:17

very specific image of herself. I think Harry's

10:19

is not doesn't have that opportunity because

10:21

there's a lot more media of him,

10:23

and he's just frankly made many more

10:25

public mistakes, which he, you know, he

10:27

talked about dressing up as a Nazi. Mhmm.

10:30

There's just a there's like a much, like, bigger

10:32

record of who Harry is

10:34

versus Meghan. You know, she

10:36

was largely unknown

10:39

to the world before she was on suits, and

10:41

then she got, like, mega famous by dating

10:43

Prince Harry. So there's more of

10:45

an opportunity her to be specific with

10:47

how she positions who she was

10:50

before we got to watch it transpire

10:52

through the lens of you

10:54

know, paparazzi and newspapers

10:57

and whatnot. And I think as a

10:59

result, they really take advantage of that

11:01

moment with this first three episodes where I

11:03

feel like as I said earlier, we just really got to

11:05

know Meghan in a way that we

11:07

did it before very much

11:09

through how Liz Garvis and I think Meghan and

11:11

Harry wanted to position Meghan by story

11:13

they're telling is indicative of not only

11:15

the information we're being given being given, but also

11:17

how they want to position her. Yes.

11:20

And who else they speak to? You know,

11:22

the game of who are

11:24

all of these friends and who

11:26

are the people who agreed and

11:29

probably, like, were asked and approved

11:31

to speak in the documentary on

11:33

behalf of Harry or Meghan. You know, there are

11:35

specific childhood friends. There Serena Williams

11:37

shows up in episode three, but I was

11:39

a little amused to see that Serena

11:41

Williams' agent. Jill

11:43

is featured in episode one as

11:45

the as our quote friend

11:48

who observed Meghan at

11:50

Wimbledon in two thousand sixteen, which was

11:52

kind of like the when she was in

11:54

London and she and Harry finally met. For

11:56

the first time. She's not identified as

11:58

Serena Williams' agent. That's some

12:00

deep lore that I know because my best

12:02

friends were obsessed with your big fan. No.

12:04

Actually, it's my friends Katie and Becky keep

12:06

trying to they text me, like, every

12:08

grand slam and are like, can you please do a story

12:10

on Jill? And I'm like, you know, we, like,

12:12

don't really do stories on agents. But

12:15

they're, like, obsessed with her. So then

12:17

Jill was not identified as an agent. She

12:19

was identified as a friend. But so that's,

12:21

like, pretty interesting and

12:24

I'm sure someone will do like an

12:26

extreme deep dive identifying all of

12:28

these people. Some of whom are not

12:30

identified by their last

12:32

names. Like, did you notice, like, Nikki

12:34

Harry's childhood

12:35

friend. Yeah. I mean, they also

12:37

they waited a really long time to show his name.

12:40

Like, I think the first time he's on, they actually don't

12:42

show his name. I was, like, waiting for because

12:44

I was, like, I was writing down all the people I want to

12:46

Google. But, you know, that

12:48

is notable on a couple couple of

12:49

levels, including the fact that

12:52

that's,

12:52

like, pretty much the only person from,

12:54

like, Harry's past who

12:56

is on the record, which is just -- Yeah. --

12:58

incredibly sad. Him and the famous

13:00

nacho Nacho has never been a go to

13:02

Harry, quote, and Harry source

13:04

for a long time. That's true. He's

13:06

gotta be very trustworthy and

13:08

I'm assuming fun if he's if he's

13:10

hung around for this But the

13:13

other thing about Harry's past that

13:15

I texted you, they do

13:18

talk about Diane a lot, and Harry brings

13:20

up his mother's death

13:22

and the way the media treated his mother

13:24

and his fear is about how that

13:26

would be you know,

13:28

duplicated with his wife and

13:30

his family. And

13:32

so they do they show a lot

13:35

of archival footage of Diana, but they

13:37

do also show some, like,

13:39

personal moments or, you know, pictures of

13:41

Diana in the home or pictures of

13:43

young Harry with pictures of Diana,

13:45

but I couldn't help but notice that all of

13:47

the photos that Harry has of Diana

13:49

are like famous professional

13:51

photos. Which one do you think about it?

13:53

I guess if you're twelve years old, you

13:55

aren't gonna be taking, like, a

13:57

lot of personal photographs, especially in

13:59

the nineties. Like, we didn't all have phones.

14:01

So it may be that there

14:03

just there aren't that many

14:05

personal photos of his mom from his childhood.

14:07

And so

14:07

instead, he has to frame, like, these photos that

14:10

we all have access to, which is, like,

14:11

Just like an incredibly devastating.

14:14

Like -- Yeah. -- tiny detail.

14:16

And, like, and whether or not they were, like, frame

14:18

to put in the documentary or

14:20

whether that's just that's what he has access to.

14:22

It's kinda like, I don't

14:24

care. Anyway, you slice it. It's

14:26

just incredibly

14:29

depressing. Which was just sort of

14:31

by takeaway of, like, the whole hairy thing throughout

14:33

this. I was like, this is really really

14:35

sad. I also don't think you see

14:37

him, like, there's a extended shot

14:39

of from a iPhone footage of Meghan

14:41

holding Archie in front of a picture of

14:43

Diana and saying that's grandma.

14:45

And I don't think we see and

14:47

there's some other moments where, like, we do see photos

14:49

of Diana, and, of course, Harry talks about

14:51

his mother, but we don't see him interacting with,

14:53

like, those pictures the way he do. With

14:55

Meghan, which is interesting as

14:57

well. You know, I also was just, like, wondering

14:59

if a lot of, like, Harry's, like, quote unquote, work

15:01

product, which is like a legal term for

15:03

any documents, like, you like, that you're that

15:05

you might turn over in a legal investigation? Like

15:07

-- Mhmm. -- does Harry, like, have

15:09

possessions from, like, when he was a kid? Or, like, are

15:11

they, like, property of the monarchy. Like,

15:13

I I actually don't know and that kind

15:15

of occurred to me as well. Right. I

15:17

was just like, it is really sad.

15:19

I mean, I of

15:22

all the things that I, like, really wanna know

15:24

about Harry and Meghan as it relates to Harry's

15:26

family, I'm most curious by his relationship with

15:28

the Wall and Kate. Mostly because I

15:30

find that to be, like,

15:32

the most heartbreaking thing for Harry's

15:34

life now to me. It's not only that he's, like, seems

15:36

strange for most of his family,

15:39

aside from Eugenie and

15:41

her husband, Jack, who she's or

15:43

is she with she's with

15:44

Jack. Right? Yes. Eugenie. Exactly. So

15:46

And Beatrice and and Edo? Anyway, he's always

15:48

been close with them, Andrew's daughter's.

15:51

But I just think it's so sad that he and

15:53

Will should have, like, are not close anymore. I mean,

15:55

that's terrible. They because, like, they share

15:57

this central trauma. Right? Even if they didn't

15:59

experience it exactly the same way. Right.

16:01

And will and can't will and can't catch some

16:03

stress in this? There are, like, Yeah.

16:05

They're not by name. You gotta look

16:07

for it. I should think in

16:09

episodes two and three, like, the

16:11

number of times that they flashed, like, the

16:13

infographic that's supposed to explain how the

16:15

press offices work with, like,

16:17

the, you know, the faces of will and

16:20

it's, like, a a deranged

16:22

family tree and also, like,

16:24

the kinda, like, the it's always

16:26

funny. It's but also, like, the it's always sunny

16:28

board, like, the number of times, but it keeps showing

16:30

up and they're like, but here's the conspiracy. It's

16:32

like a little bit much. And, you know, there

16:34

are a couple other things where Harry's

16:37

talking about, like, how you had to look for a

16:39

woman, you know, a certain kind of

16:41

woman and there's something about, like, formality

16:43

anyway. So, yeah, I would agree with

16:45

you if not follow. He says, like, basically, the men and

16:47

his family are encouraged to -- Right. -- pick

16:49

up a good match instead of following their heart.

16:51

And he says, my mother's son and

16:53

I felt I I lead with my heart or

16:55

whatever. Right. So I

16:57

would agree with you. It's evident that

17:00

that relationship does not

17:01

exist, and that's really sad. And it's

17:03

just to me an

17:05

extension of that is just like evident that

17:08

Harry doesn't

17:09

have any family or anything besides

17:12

Meghan? And -- Mhmm. -- and it's

17:14

lovely that he found her.

17:16

And they do present it

17:18

and you do kinda understand it as this person

17:20

who was, like, desperately unhappy

17:22

and desperately, like, alone and

17:24

had not worked through any of

17:28

experiences and his mental health

17:30

struggles, which he has since been, like, pretty

17:32

open about. In a way, like, that I I think

17:34

is difficult and

17:35

admirable. And is

17:38

clearly still working through them

17:41

and found someone

17:43

who was

17:44

at, you know,

17:46

like, who helped him, like, get out of it. Do you know what

17:48

I mean? Who, like honestly, they

17:50

seem like a great match that I think my other takeaways,

17:52

like, they seem really happy. Yeah.

17:55

Like, this seems like he's working for them, which which is

17:57

really nice. But, yeah, I mean, she was,

17:59

like, on board to

18:01

fill, I think, a lot of voids that he was feeling.

18:03

Right. That's just sense that

18:05

I got from watching it. You know, ultimately, I

18:07

think while the family catches trays, there's no, like,

18:09

the -- No. -- person who gets the

18:12

most, like, Direct dissiveowl

18:15

is Meghan's father, which we can come back to in a

18:17

minute. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But

18:19

ultimately, this is kind of, like, one of the

18:21

reasons also kind of boring is the major

18:23

beats that they wanna address are things that have

18:25

already been in the press, but they haven't

18:27

necessarily gotten to talk about completely on their

18:29

own terms. So, you know, so

18:31

then ultimately that leads to what

18:33

has been Harry's personal, you

18:35

know, like one of his focal points for the

18:37

last, you know, for most of his life, which

18:40

is how they're treated by the media. And why the press office graphic

18:42

comes up so frequently. And

18:45

I think to their credit, I

18:47

appreciated the attempts to

18:50

contextualize the racism and

18:52

the, like, the hate

18:54

filled British media through the

18:56

lens of, like, just the extremely

18:58

ingrained imperial mindset

19:01

of, you know, white Britain

19:03

and empire and how commonwealth

19:05

is sort of of a, like, a

19:07

more, like, a, like, softer language, but,

19:09

like, basically, the same the same

19:11

conceit. And so I appreciated

19:13

that they tried to present it

19:15

that way and contextualize it that way. But I think

19:18

ultimately, it felt so disjointed and

19:20

also, like, dissident with the

19:22

beginning of their story where they were,

19:24

you know, camping in Botswana

19:26

and sort of, like, just, like, flying

19:28

off to Africa for for here and

19:30

here and there to go to, like, what's up though? And like

19:32

1 said, Botswana or whatever. And ultimately,

19:34

like, the sort of, like, reckoning

19:36

with Commonwealth, with the royal family through

19:38

Harry's experience, I didn't think

19:41

really made sense to me, but I did

19:43

appreciate the attempts to,

19:45

like, recontextualize why British

19:48

press is was so horrible to

19:50

Megan, which is undeniable. But I just like

19:52

it didn't land for me and I and I honestly wish that

19:54

had had gone

19:55

further. I would agree. I I do think it's important

19:58

to know that while,

19:59

like, Liz Garvis is the director of this

20:02

documentary, and so

20:04

a lot of Not really choices there's. Well,

20:07

not every and right.

20:09

And especially the the

20:11

analysts and the, like, recruquicular

20:13

information. I think it's, like, informed by what

20:15

Harry and Meghan are saying

20:17

and have experienced for sure, but

20:20

that the documentarians or trying to provide some of

20:22

that context. And I would agree that, like, the

20:24

documentary sees a lot of threads

20:26

from the commonwealth and kind of

20:28

the after effects of empire and colonialism.

20:31

Two, you know, Brexit also and they

20:33

talk a lot about the, like, the

20:35

moment in two thousand sixteen in

20:37

the UK and the anti immigration

20:40

and just kinda like the the

20:42

vile modern energy and

20:44

how that fed into just

20:47

like the energy in the UK, but

20:49

specifically the treatment of Meghan

20:51

and the hands of the tabloids. So

20:54

I agree with you that it's it doesn't

20:56

all come together, and and they, like, spend

20:58

a lot of time doing it, but

21:02

I appreciate that they

21:04

tried to do

21:04

it. I thought some context that they

21:07

did very well

21:09

even if, like

21:10

and it was maybe more familiar

21:12

to you and me because you and I spend

21:14

a lot of time studying,

21:17

like, the media and paparazzi or whatever.

21:19

But still, I thought it was, like, very vivid

21:21

what's the recreation of the experience

21:24

of paparazzi? And, like,

21:26

yeah, being, like, tormented and

21:28

stalked by these people, and, you know, they have

21:30

Meghan's mother, Doria, speaking about her

21:32

experience in Los Angeles. And, you

21:34

know, I thought the The footage of them in the

21:36

car was definitely affecting. Yes.

21:38

That we're expecting that are, like, in New York. Yeah. And

21:40

you can you can see Harry in particular,

21:43

like, generally being traumatized in,

21:45

like, the the actual literal

21:47

definition of that that word, which is

21:49

very upsetting. I thought the

21:52

interviews with the suits producers

21:54

about just the

21:56

kind of, like, the two thousand sixteen that

21:58

they had to, like, enclose the set and we were

22:00

afraid that someone was gonna be on her trailer and she's

22:02

not getting any support, you

22:05

know, all of that stuff was,

22:07

like, really vivid.

22:10

And they you I

22:12

think a great job of just

22:14

reminding you how

22:17

oppressive and scary this can

22:19

be and how little

22:21

support that there is, and she

22:23

was unprepared for it. I felt that she

22:25

I felt that the the documentary

22:27

made a real point reinforcing that

22:29

Meghan didn't know what she was getting into because they got

22:31

so much heat for that after the

22:34

Oprah interview or

22:34

later, like, girl, why don't you Google

22:37

it? Yeah. And she's like, no, I

22:39

programmed

22:39

it. Oh my god. I

22:42

meant my main question for you is, what do you

22:44

think Harry's burger account is?

22:47

I felt like it got it was, like

22:49

I don't know. Maybe that was a fake one. There was

22:51

1, you know, -- Well --

22:53

daddy exploration. -- I don't remember.

22:56

Or it was fake because they, like, they,

22:59

like, blurred app in, like, the app where

23:01

you would see a username or whatever. But

23:03

with with with her niece, Ashley, they also

23:05

tried to do that, but it like, very easy to

23:07

find Ashley Hale on Instagram. Also,

23:09

I have long followed Lindsey Jill

23:11

Roth on Instagram, so I was just going through

23:13

who she follows to, like, see

23:15

who are the people from Megan's

23:18

life that she follows. That's Megan's. She's

23:20

friend she's in the documentary. She's Megan's friend from

23:22

college. And

23:24

Yeah. The, like, we met on Instagram was the most Amanda

23:26

Robbins moments of this because you've long talked

23:28

about how celebrities just use Instagram as

23:30

a dating app and, like, that's how

23:32

they do it. Yeah. And it's it's true.

23:34

And I think that Harry being,

23:36

like, I saw, like, a

23:39

Instagram effects video of her with, like,

23:41

dog ears or whatever and

23:43

then inquired from a friend and then they, like,

23:45

became Instagram friends and then

23:47

texted. Like, I buy it. Like, the I was like,

23:49

oh, okay. I show. Yeah. This this actually

23:51

makes sense because his

23:53

text to her as represented on

23:55

screen were so lame and so,

23:57

like, this is a person who doesn't

23:59

really have to try very hard or,

24:01

like, do very much was very

24:03

evident. Yeah. I thought that

24:05

was really that was funny. I have say Megan seemed this

24:07

is I feel like Megan seemed really happy

24:09

in several moments with Harry and --

24:10

Mhmm. -- I think, you know, reaching out.

24:14

No.

24:14

But, like, after some of the harrowing moments, she was

24:16

less happy. But, like, we so and frequently

24:19

see her 1, like, a a motion

24:21

that captures that she might feel like

24:23

comfortable or safe. And we did see that,

24:25

which I think contributed to, like,

24:27

being able to kind of -- Yeah.

24:29

-- enjoy her a little bit more

24:31

because she doesn't seem like she was, like, under siege. Like, if you compare

24:33

this with, like, the Oprah interview, yeah.

24:35

They were clearly, like, so

24:38

so uncomfortable and unhappy at that moment. And

24:40

I it seems like they're happier in

24:42

this. I mean, that She's a She's

24:45

a representative. And she

24:47

seems she seems, you

24:49

know, warm and and

24:52

personable and

24:54

I'm I genuinely mean this as a compliment.

24:56

She's very good in front of 1

24:58

camera. Like, she seemed comfortable

25:01

and knows how to, like, connect

25:04

and I was engaged with

25:06

her, like in definitely in

25:08

this. And I thought it was, like, all the more

25:10

noticeable because especially in their

25:12

joint interviews, Harry's not

25:14

comfortable and there are a couple, like, very

25:16

awkward moments where she's even trying to set

25:18

him up for stuff and he

25:20

like, shuts her down. There's one thing about how she's

25:22

like, oh, he had a list of what he was looking for,

25:24

and he very grimly is like, we're not

25:26

going there. And it's like, it's awkward. Like, that's,

25:29

like, that's, like, something that happens on the

25:31

bachelor, reunions very

25:31

frequently. That's why

25:32

you wanna go there. You really wanna bring that into

25:34

the public that actually recently happened.

25:37

So it was, like, really,

25:39

really, like, almost like a tantrum. It

25:41

was really uncomfortable. And just sort

25:43

of, like, his instant

25:45

like, how dare you kind

25:48

of thing, which on the one

25:49

hand, I really like,

25:50

I I get it. He

25:52

spent his whole life

25:55

with people just like trying to take pictures

25:57

of him all the time. But on the other hand, it was a little

25:59

bit like, oh, that's not that's not the most

26:01

appealing vibe that I'm getting from you at this

26:03

moment. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed.

26:05

Let's talk about the recounting of

26:07

her relationship with her father.

26:09

Meghan's father, Meghan's half sister,

26:11

and Meghan's niece. So her niece

26:14

is Ashley Hale. She's the

26:16

only person from

26:18

Meghan's family outside of

26:20

her mom to be in the documentary. She

26:23

Meghan and Ashley both explained how they

26:25

had a really close relationship. Ashley's

26:28

mother is Samantha who

26:30

gets issues when the press quit a

26:33

bit. Biological mother, we should say,

26:35

because that is how she

26:37

identifies her. And and she's yes.

26:39

Her grand her grandparents her Ashley's

26:42

father's parents are are the ones

26:44

who raised Ashley and formally

26:46

adopted her. And that she says those those are

26:48

her parents. And that Samantha Markle is her

26:50

biological mom. And because of

26:52

Samantha's behavior and also

26:54

Thomas Markle, Meghan's father's behavior, The

26:56

Palace advised Meghan not to invite

26:58

Ashley to the

27:00

wedding, which was, like, really, you

27:02

know, fractions really the their relationship for

27:04

obvious reasons, Do you think terms

27:07

again? I couldn't tell

27:09

me neither. And I I

27:11

thought last thing that in

27:13

the dark. Yes. And and I thought that she was

27:16

lovely and incredibly poised

27:20

in a very difficult situation, and I really felt

27:22

for her. Same. She seems that she seemed

27:24

really hurt by what what had happened. And -- Yes.

27:26

-- not really bad Meghan though.

27:28

She seemed very frustrated with Samantha Markle. Yes. And so

27:31

that seemed like a very complicated

27:34

and sad relationship And

27:37

then she was speaking

27:39

through the call

27:41

that she received from Harry and Meghan of being,

27:43

like, and the way that

27:45

Meghan describes it, she uses the phrase

27:47

the advice we're being given, which

27:49

is a incredibly loaded, passive

27:51

voice. But anyway, to disinvite Ashley

27:53

from the

27:53

wedding, Ashley does, like, tear

27:56

up in a way that I found, like, really

27:58

affecting and sad. I think you're right that it's

28:00

promising

28:00

that it's maybe good news that she's

28:03

in the documentary and But

28:06

also, like, I I felt for

28:08

her that she was in the documentary

28:11

because she's sort of being offered

28:14

up to the media, you know, and

28:16

this like very sad thing only becomes

28:18

more public. It's not hard to find her

28:20

on

28:20

Instagram. Yeah. And it's just kind

28:23

of

28:23

like these are, like, hard

28:25

private things. And even

28:27

the justification that they give for

28:29

not inviting her to the wedding of, like, this is really hard

28:31

to explain and people won't under and

28:34

and so why don't we just,

28:35

like, keep this a

28:38

little, you know, to ourselves, which on

28:40

the one

28:41

hand is heartbreaking. And on the other hand,

28:43

like, I guess, like, does make little sense. And

28:45

I I'm not justifying it, but

28:47

I'm, like, I you know, but to have

28:49

done that then and then

28:51

to have to give up

28:53

on it now. It's just it seems

28:55

sad that she Like, yeah. She just

28:57

seems like she's gotten the short

28:59

end of the stick

29:00

on, like, basically, every

29:03

single

29:03

point along

29:04

the way on

29:05

this one. Yeah. You know what I said?

29:08

You're saying? I think very few very

29:10

few of Meghan's friends had actually

29:12

attended the reception that in

29:14

the evening of the wedding or in the

29:16

stock. Like, Abigail Spencer, I know it

29:18

went to the wedding, but I believe I recall

29:20

from twenty seventeen that none of the suits cast

29:23

went to the reception. I'm

29:25

Silver Tree, who is one of Meghan's

29:27

friends in in the dark. She

29:29

directed ten episodes of suits, so I I assume it's how

29:31

they met. By the way, I didn't know that off the top of my

29:33

head. I looked up. I just want you to know as as a suits

29:36

fan. I don't know if she was there, but

29:38

there seems like very people very few people who were part

29:40

of the inner circle at the time are

29:42

still in the inner circle now.

29:44

Incredibly notably Jessica Mulrooney,

29:46

who is invisible from this

29:49

documentary. Who was No. No. No. She is

29:51

well, She is not inside the pictures.

29:53

Except for the pictures and except for

29:55

the footage literally from the

29:58

engagement. Where

30:00

and the the story of the engagement is

30:02

slightly different, which is, like, great. You don't

30:04

have to tell the entire like, tell the

30:07

world what you want. Like, I actually there have

30:09

been some tabloid things of being like, what? He

30:11

didn't propose in the cottage. He proposed

30:13

outside the cottage and how dare they not share that? Like,

30:15

who is a fuck? Who you know what? Like

30:17

Yeah. If you tell it Yeah. That's it's a hundred

30:19

percent okay with me. But apparently, there was like

30:21

a little lag time. And so as Harry was like

30:23

setting up the electric candles outside or

30:25

whatever, which is honestly a little

30:27

cute. Meghan, like, FaceTime's, a

30:30

friend named Jess, to

30:32

be like, it's happening. It's happening and there's

30:34

a clip from that. And in

30:36

in the documentary, which I like, I have

30:38

some questions about how that

30:39

footage, like, who's recording that in real time,

30:41

but whatever. That's obviously that's

30:44

more runny.

30:44

It's like it's you know, I I don't have confirmation

30:46

on that, but I, like, would bet a lot of

30:48

money that that is just come up with

30:50

me. So that is notable.

30:52

Yeah. And so, you know, Jessica Mulrooney

30:55

was her stylist, and then her

30:57

my her longtime makeup artist, whose first name

30:59

is Daniel, whose last name I'm forgetting right now, but

31:01

I will look it up is in the

31:03

doc, and she talks to how long they've been working together. She and Jessica

31:05

Maloney, I think they had grown apart

31:07

already, and then Jessica Maloney

31:10

had a really unfortunate not unfortunate,

31:12

really ugly episode in

31:14

twenty twenty where she was basically, like,

31:17

taking credit from black influencers and

31:19

then wouldn't apologize. And

31:21

also bullying them. Right. Bullying.

31:23

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And she has

31:25

sort of, like, just disappeared since then.

31:27

She I mean, it was really ugly and

31:29

she seems like a pretty, you know,

31:31

bad. Like, just like, not bad

31:33

persons, like, so it's kinda like a vague way of putting it, but everything

31:35

about what happened there suggests that

31:38

she really isn't deserving of

31:40

attention. So I'm glad she's on but

31:42

I thought that was pretty notable because she was like a big part

31:44

of like Meghan's inner circle at

31:46

the time they got married and they're really they've like

31:48

zoomed in on that so

31:49

much. That was interesting to me.

31:52

Did

31:56

you talk

31:56

about her father? Yeah.

31:59

It's just depressing.

32:01

Yeah. I also you know,

32:03

this is settled. She had sued the Daily

32:05

Mail about the Daily

32:08

running communications between her and her father

32:10

that her father had given to them without her

32:12

consent. That was the legal case that

32:14

basically they didn't have her approval

32:16

to run words that she'd

32:18

written and they won. The the

32:20

copyright of the content

32:22

of any letter is the

32:25

letter writer writers. Yeah.

32:27

I think that, you know, they have they have other

32:29

ongoing litigation, but I think that they that,

32:31

like, probably were able to discuss this

32:33

one in full because it was a settled

32:35

matter. And also because she's completely estranged

32:37

from him, and I think they I

32:39

get the impression since this since

32:41

basically their wedding that they feel

32:44

he did so much damage to

32:46

their image and to,

32:49

like, just to the access to them, that they seem

32:51

very, like, just still very angry,

32:53

understandably so. Like, you know, they they say it in

32:55

plain plain words in the doc. Like,

32:57

they were learning updates about her

32:59

father from TMZ. Well, they say it's tabloid,

33:01

but it's from TMZ. And, you

33:03

know, they I think that's like such an

33:06

utter betrayal for them based on what

33:08

she experienced and, of course, what Diana went through

33:10

that, like, there's just no coming

33:12

back from that and the same applies to Smith

33:14

and Markle as well because she's done the same.

33:17

And I think because they are not

33:19

in Harry's family and because

33:21

their what they have done has

33:23

no, like, or a of secrecy around it or like a sure

33:25

out of of, you know, like a hidden sure out

33:27

of, like, this is how things work.

33:29

It's much easier to

33:31

and there's a much less blowback

33:33

at this point to be very clear

33:35

and plain spoken about what Samantha

33:37

and Thomas Markle did versus

33:40

the anonymous people we don't know from the various press offices that

33:42

also probably have not helped them. Yeah, I

33:44

did also wonder 1 this

33:48

will work. I think they've made that. Well,

33:50

I think they have every right

33:52

and I understand and and think

33:54

all of the stuff with her father

33:56

is heartbreaking. And the stuff with Samantha

33:59

Markle is is ugly and

34:01

upsetting.

34:02

And I think

34:05

that it's doubly difficult because obviously Harry

34:07

and Meghan have no

34:08

ability to control whether

34:11

these people speak to the media

34:14

or whether the media speaks to these

34:15

people. I guess we should note that there's

34:18

a

34:19

Samantha Markle, like, denies a lot of what they alleged

34:21

and says, like, the media has, like, made up

34:23

quotes from her, you know,

34:26

whatever. So this seems

34:28

like in a lot of ways, like an

34:30

effort to stop some of

34:32

this, you know, which I I completely

34:34

understand wanting

34:36

this person who has been incredibly hurtful

34:38

to you to not be

34:40

to just, like, stop being

34:43

in the media all the time. Like,

34:45

that's like, I get it. And I'm speaking about Samantha Marker

34:47

here specifically, but also her father

34:49

don't accept. But it

34:51

really did feel Like, this was

34:53

an attempt to say, okay. Like, maybe if we clear the

34:55

record, maybe if we

34:58

make it clear from our

35:00

side, what a relationship with this person is, what the experience of this person

35:02

is, then, like, she'll

35:04

have less credibility going forward. And

35:08

maybe she won't just, like, be in the media as much.

35:10

And I I don't know whether that works.

35:13

You know? I don't know whether I it

35:15

seemed like an effort to

35:18

just stop it. And I think as media watchers,

35:20

what we've learned is so often just like the

35:22

more accident he gives to

35:23

something, like, the longer it

35:26

goes on, strands

35:27

in effect. Yeah. Yeah. Which

35:29

makes me sad. I this

35:32

one's just

35:32

really, really sad. And I generally wish that every single tabloid

35:35

would just stop talking

35:37

to this person. Who

35:40

who's not helping? Who's not helping? How about that? Agreed.

35:42

Should we do a, like, a lightning

35:44

round or just, like, slow moments that Yeah.

35:47

After we wanted to note? Number

35:49

one for me. Mhmm. This is not a small moment,

35:51

but a recurring theme that I just I was

35:53

sort of blown away by. Yeah. Megan is

35:55

so pretty without makeup. I was

35:57

just like, wow. She looks great all the time. And I was like,

35:59

she's so beautiful. Let me just

36:02

without makeup, yes, but with makeup, like,

36:05

in all settings, just an incredibly beautiful woman.

36:07

Just just really very beautiful. I thought

36:09

-- Yeah. -- made an appearance at

36:12

a foundation in New York earlier this

36:14

week. I thought I thought that

36:16

she looked spectacular, astonishing

36:18

that white dress. Yeah. And, you

36:20

know, yeah, finally, like, they did the right number

36:22

of fittings, and she just looked

36:24

amazing. Beautiful woman.

36:26

She is so beautiful. I have,

36:28

like, a really really comes through.

36:30

I was pretty amazed by

36:33

that. Next, Mhmm. A quick

36:34

one from you. Sorry. I was what's going on? Oh, you

36:36

wanna go back and forth? Yeah. I really

36:38

enjoyed all the behind the scenes footage.

36:41

All of their, like, cute family photos, and it

36:43

made me think that they would be really good on social

36:45

media. Just too bad. You guys don't have a

36:48

Instagram page where and I understand and why?

36:50

Because everyone's, like, so vile. I

36:52

like, I get it. But every single one

36:54

of the cute photos like the selfies

36:57

with their kids Like, I mean, maybe I'm the target demo for

36:59

that, but I was like, this is adorable. Good

37:02

job, guys. I mean, Meghan did tell

37:04

Alison Davis in the pages of

37:06

the cut. She's returning to Instagram. So I hope that's true. Okay.

37:08

Harry being a bird watcher, a burner.

37:10

Watch it. I did. Well, I was gonna

37:12

spend on the ramble in

37:14

Central Park. I

37:16

was like, I would

37:18

like some they're supporting documents

37:21

on that. You know? That tracks

37:23

for me. I bet Charles is also a

37:25

burger. He's like, you know, assess the environment and stuff. I bet he's like

37:27

a big, like, Balmoral, Sandringham.

37:29

Like, this is what we do on our

37:31

states. We we watch

37:34

I believe -- Right. -- they the world. All

37:36

of Meghan's friends calling him

37:38

h. Like, I'm sorry, guys.

37:41

I'm sorry. Okay. And this has been this has been the

37:43

top discussion I've had with friends

37:45

via text of all of

37:47

the letters in the

37:50

English alphabet. H -- Yeah. -- is the least likely to become a

37:52

nickname because it is not easy to

37:54

say. It is not ABC, DEFGI

37:57

think it's AHW

37:59

is also hard. But That yes. But that you

38:02

can shorten into something. That's Yeah.

38:04

With with our forty third president,

38:06

Sure. H is really tough. Dubya rolls off the tongue. It's

38:09

true. Just every single one of

38:11

the friends, I was like, on

38:13

the one hand, I really appreciate how

38:16

just, like, media managed everyone

38:18

is. You guys are in line, like,

38:20

good work. This is like,

38:22

snap it. I don't believe you. I know. Yeah.

38:24

I know. It was -- The crack. -- it was,

38:26

like, just it was a lot. Yeah.

38:29

I felt like Harry of all

38:32

the humans I've seen in the

38:34

world, like Keith, there's while

38:36

clearly being same person. I feel like

38:38

he looks the least like his his baby

38:40

photos and like his childhood photos. Like, I feel like something

38:42

about his face has changed. I mean,

38:44

it could. That happens. It's like Are you but you're not, like, alleging,

38:46

like, no. No. No. No. No. No. Not anything. I just think

38:48

it's something, like, interesting. It's like, I feel like the

38:50

computer model

38:52

what hair you're gonna look like as a child, like, with each other high childhood picture,

38:54

and you have the computer modeling and they'll

38:56

do it next to him would, like, not you'd be like,

38:59

oh, this person is the same coloring and is like, yes, this

39:01

is the same person, but -- Right. -- not

39:03

what we expected. 1 don't know. Just throw that

39:05

out there. Okay. Similarly, I

39:07

just absolutely loved all the ski fashions of the

39:10

nineteen nineties. Like -- Yeah. -- really good.

39:12

Wow. Really good. Kids ski

39:14

gear, it just was

39:16

really fantastic. Yeah. And I

39:18

appreciated how much, like, how

39:20

much of the sort of to

39:22

prove the point about the paparazzi, they use a

39:24

lot of vacation photos. So that was like them on the yacht

39:26

as as dramatized in season five of

39:28

the crown. Right. Them

39:30

skiing, like, all this stuff. I really enjoyed all the

39:32

vacation garb.

39:34

Right. I didn't know that Meghan went to Hollywood

39:36

School House aka the Little Red Schools, which

39:38

is, like, a parent with

39:41

a child approaching preschool age in

39:44

Los Angeles. That's a

39:46

that's a school house of note. Let's just put

39:49

it

39:49

that way. Is it what it like, what's what's going on? It's in

39:52

Hollywood. Iraff. Well, I mean, she

39:54

went, like, thirty years ago at this point.

39:56

So who could but it's

39:58

essentially located and difficult to

40:00

get into, and I think a number of

40:02

celebrity kids also go there.

40:04

Oh, cool. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

40:06

Interesting. Yeah. Meghan seemed like

40:08

very unfamiliar with Los Angeles, like when they were

40:10

driving her around her old neighborhood.

40:12

Right. She was just like, oh, wow. What

40:14

a cute neighborhood this is. It's like, have

40:16

you really not? No idea what

40:18

it's like now, but Well, she hasn't lived

40:20

there in a long time if you think about it

40:22

because she was in Toronto. She was

40:24

in Toronto. For half the year. She's, you know having

40:26

emails to everyone in Los Angeles is,

40:28

like, just uses, like,

40:30

you know, Google

40:32

maps or ways and doesn't, like, really know where anything is. They just

40:34

play their That's

40:35

it. 1 like, that's a thing that I don't

40:37

like about LA that I'm I'm trying to learn my

40:39

way around. Anyway,

40:41

I think

40:41

that it was actually, like, a really nice

40:44

portrayal of suits, the suits cast, and the

40:46

environment

40:46

in Toronto. And it seemed like a really,

40:48

like, healthy, lovely

40:50

place to be. Yeah. Was actually my

40:52

impression at the

40:52

time. I was like, oh, it seems great to be working

40:55

on a show in

40:55

Toronto. Yeah. Step is cold. It was great. I have another thing for you that's

40:58

more of a question. I don't know if you caught that.

41:00

Sure. Good. And I suppose this is,

41:02

like, a larger question about

41:04

our, like,

41:06

how are we sourcing and perhaps authenticating

41:08

all of the personal media that's

41:10

it used in this? Is it

41:12

recreations? Anyway, at one point, 1

41:15

like I believe that it's

41:18

like Megan's phone is

41:20

receiving a

41:22

call from has as

41:24

it's saved in the phone.

41:26

And the background

41:30

is like a glamorous photo of Meghan

41:32

herself. And so I'm like,

41:34

is so is your

41:36

wallpaper a glamorous photo

41:38

of yourself? Or did someone mess up in the recreation

41:40

here? Like, what's what's

41:42

going on? Right? Because

41:44

even if Harry

41:47

FaceTiming her, it

41:49

would be him. You know? And --

41:51

Yeah. -- like the preview would be him. It

41:53

would not be, like, what he has

41:55

saved on his phone. So I I just I

41:57

don't know. I think someone should check that in the

41:59

edit. I think it's an editing problem. Okay. I

42:01

feel I feel like

42:04

Megan is definitely like a black and white

42:06

photo of her kids, maybe with her

42:08

kids -- Yeah. -- as her whole I agree

42:10

with that. Like there's no I

42:12

have a question about I agree. Though this was, like, two thousand and was pre kids.

42:15

So That's true. You know?

42:17

Nevertheless, like, super recreation. Yeah. We're operating

42:19

under the assumption that all

42:21

this is recreated. Like, talk to

42:22

me though

42:23

about the engagement footage.

42:26

Like, that looks pretty

42:28

real. Who was

42:29

recording that? I don't know. It's a good

42:32

question. Maybe maybe I don't know. People people hired what engagement

42:34

like photographers and videographers

42:36

a

42:37

lot. Like, it's But

42:38

she's, like, in a closet. So, you know, she but the part where

42:40

she's calling her friend, and

42:42

she's, like, in a closet. Who's

42:45

recording that? Maybe he maybe he was

42:48

recording it. Well, that seems illegal. I

42:50

mean, I'm not really sure about that, like, sec you

42:52

know, two party consent rules

42:55

in the UK. But anyway,

42:57

okay. Alright. Maybe we'll learn

42:59

about that. Yeah.

43:01

Hopefully, we will. Think that's all

43:03

of my my quick takes. Mine as

43:06

well. I have to say enjoy discussing this

43:08

more than I enjoyed watching it.

43:10

Sam. So Thanks for the content, I guess. Thanks for giving us this

43:12

pod. We'll be doing this again

43:14

next Friday. Oh my

43:15

god. Next Friday, you'll be

43:17

getting it outside today. You

43:20

know, tweet tweet us, DM us

43:22

your thoughts. We'd we'd love to hear them and

43:24

thank you to our producer Jade Whaley. For

43:26

not only producing this episode, but providing some really helpful context for us at the

43:28

beginning of the show as someone who's been

43:31

less unhealthily obsessed with

43:34

these people. Yeah. And Also, congratulations to Jade

43:36

for just not having wasted her life watching

43:38

every single minute of this. Maybe

43:40

I'll follow her leave. Yeah. We will

43:43

talk to you all soon.