0:04

Hey friends before we jump into today's

0:06

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0:08

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the show now. Jess and Scott.

1:57

I hope you enjoyed the episode.

1:59

Okay, the last two weeks we've had

2:02

both Dr. McNamara on as a guest

2:04

and Dr. Gordon Neufeld. They have worked

2:06

together, their developmental psychologists, they're very well

2:08

regarded in the field of developmental psychology,

2:10

and they have talked in I think

2:13

both of their episodes about being like

2:15

a parent leader, a parent as leader.

2:17

in the home. And we were just

2:19

talking about how it would be nice

2:21

to have a discussion about what that

2:24

means practically, but also to focus on

2:26

what it means to be parent leader

2:28

practically for like especially difficult types of

2:30

children, which are maybe more angry and

2:32

have explosive behaviors and that kind of

2:35

thing. So that is what this episode

2:37

is on. So to be clear, today

2:39

we are talking about how to be

2:41

the leader your kids need if you

2:43

have a difficult, strong-willed angry. type of

2:45

child. Sure. I thought my explanation was

2:48

pretty good, but okay. It wasn't clear

2:50

enough, I guess. No, that was a

2:52

good explanation. I just, I'd like to

2:54

have just like a one-liner. Okay. All

2:56

right. One thing I noted before I

2:59

went into like the real meat of

3:01

these questions that I put together, one

3:03

thing I have noted with you, you

3:05

were quite excited to have this conversation

3:07

specifically. understanding what it means to be

3:09

like a good parent or a parent

3:12

leader for angry kids because you're so

3:14

passionate about angry kids and you always

3:16

have been for like however many years

3:18

you've worked with kids and families you

3:20

always have been and I was just

3:23

wondering why because even in preparation for

3:25

this discussion I feel like you're like

3:27

well just imagine what it's like to

3:29

have a child that is really angry

3:31

and like is constantly saying no to

3:34

you or whatever arguing with you. And

3:36

for me that's not something that like

3:38

our girls I wouldn't say they're angry.

3:40

That's not their temperaments at all. One

3:42

is maybe a little more sensitive than

3:44

the others and maybe had more tantrums

3:47

when they were like a toddler. preschooler,

3:49

but like I would never have defined

3:51

them as being an angry child. But

3:53

you seem to be very much passionate

3:55

about the concept of helping parents who

3:58

have quote unquote angry children. So why?

4:00

And let me just say off the

4:02

bat, I don't love the label angry.

4:04

It's just what I'm using because... That's

4:06

what people say, right? So when I

4:08

get an email from someone, let's say

4:11

wanting to book a session with me

4:13

or one of my therapists, the email

4:15

is like, help, I have an angry

4:17

child, or help, I have a difficult

4:19

kid, or I have an explosive child,

4:22

so I'm using that language because that

4:24

is what's used, not because I want

4:26

to label a kid as angry. And

4:28

I think that goes to why I

4:30

am so passionate about angry kids. I

4:33

think they are the most misunderstood children.

4:35

You mentioned our daughter, our middle daughter,

4:37

this is the one I was all

4:39

emotional about, and she's a perfect example

4:41

of why I'm so passionate about this.

4:43

Because when she was a toddler, she

4:46

was a highly sensitive toddler, right? And

4:48

at first, we didn't know that. And

4:50

I do remember, clearly, when the pieces

4:52

started to kind of click for me

4:54

with her is when we had our

4:57

third baby and she, the second daughter,

4:59

it was just... melting down all the

5:01

time having a really hard time would

5:03

try and hit the baby was not

5:05

like a mean-spirited kid but just couldn't

5:08

seem to control her body and would

5:10

just have these epic meltdowns was so

5:12

loud so frustrating and I remember one

5:14

day it just clicked for me Oh

5:16

my goodness, I have a highly sensitive

5:18

kid. Because I started to notice patterns

5:21

of, okay, after a busy day she

5:23

has a huge meltdown, or if there's

5:25

too much sounds and stuff going on

5:27

at one time, she has a big

5:29

meltdown. If I'm upset, she has a

5:32

big meltdown. Like all of these things,

5:34

I started noticing patterns. Too many people

5:36

for too long. She has a big

5:38

meltdown. I try and put socks on

5:40

her. She has a big meltdown. I

5:42

try and put pants on her. She

5:45

has a big meltdown. You know what

5:47

I mean? So I started to connect

5:49

these dots that, oh my goodness, my

5:51

daughter isn't just like explosive tantrumor. She

5:53

is highly sensitive. And when I started

5:56

to understood that and when we started

5:58

talking about what it meant to raise

6:00

a sensitive kid and really understand what

6:02

she needed, the meltdowns slowly went away.

6:04

And now we know how to coach

6:07

her and we know how to support

6:09

her and I would agree with you.

6:11

I don't see her as strong-wilt, which

6:13

I used to label her as strong-wilt,

6:15

which I used to label her as

6:17

strong-wilt, I don't see her as strong-wilt,

6:20

I don't see her as strong-wilt, angry,

6:22

or any of doing that with our

6:24

daughter. We were able to catch that

6:26

early on because I've done this work

6:28

for so many years, right? But a

6:31

lot of parents don't catch that early

6:33

on. And so now at the point

6:35

that they come to me and they're

6:37

emailing me, their kids five, six, seven,

6:39

eight, and they've been struggling with anger

6:41

for so many years, and now it's

6:44

also, these cycles are built in of,

6:46

of they're getting punished to five or

6:48

whatever. By the time I get to

6:50

five, you're listening to me. And they're

6:52

like, I'm not listening. And so now

6:55

they also have the label built in.

6:57

And I just think that of any

6:59

kind of children out there, angry kids

7:01

are the most misunderstood. And that's why

7:03

I'm just so passionate about them. And

7:06

I just want parents to really get.

7:08

their angry kids and understand them. And

7:10

I think it's just totally life-changing when

7:12

they do. Okay, that actually, it's a

7:14

great segue. So before we dive into

7:16

strategies, what do you think the most

7:19

damaging misconception or misconceptions you see parents

7:21

holding on to when they first walk

7:23

into your office with an angry or

7:25

defiant child? This is said with a

7:27

lot of compassion to parents. The biggest

7:30

misconception is, my kid is bad. And

7:32

parents mean this in like... the most

7:34

genuine way but they're like I don't

7:36

know why my kid is so bad

7:38

like they don't listen they're manipulative you

7:41

actually have parents that are saying those

7:43

things yeah like coming into therapy they'll

7:45

even say jest I know you don't

7:47

talk about kids this way but like

7:49

mine's different this is just a kid

7:51

who just doesn't listen you know I

7:54

know you don't think kids are bad

7:56

jest but like what am I supposed

7:58

to do I say don't do this

8:00

and he outright hits his sister like

8:02

do you expect me not to punish

8:05

him like should he have no repercussions

8:07

to what he does you know so

8:09

parents come in and they're frazzled and

8:11

they're frustrated and they're like look my

8:13

kid needs a consequence I can't just

8:15

not give them a consequence for doing

8:18

these things and so I think the

8:20

biggest misconception is that like I remember

8:22

it's coming to me literally one time

8:24

and saying I just need you to

8:26

give us new consequences because we used

8:29

to send them to time out but

8:31

it's not working like He just comes

8:33

out of time out and he won't

8:35

let us thank him. So we need

8:37

new consequences. It's not working. And I

8:40

think that's the biggest misconception is that

8:42

that's going to answer your problem, which

8:44

is not. Yeah. We were just talking

8:46

about that, the Dr. Ross cream quote.

8:48

Kids do well when they can. And

8:50

that's also what Dr. Neufeld talked about

8:53

in last week's episode. As a developmentalist,

8:55

so I would refer to myself as

8:57

a developmentalist, similar to Dr. Neufeld and

8:59

Dr. McNamara, as that's my training too,

9:01

is that we believe that kids do

9:04

well when the conditions are right for

9:06

them to do well. And so for

9:08

me, as a developmentalist, when I have

9:10

a kid come in, I'm not looking

9:12

specifically at their behavior. the behaviors is

9:14

the symptom to me of a greater

9:17

issue. And so what I'm actually looking

9:19

at is the environment. And as a

9:21

developmentalist, what we believe is that if

9:23

the environment is conducive to growing, a

9:25

child will grow and they will develop

9:28

and turn into who they're meant to

9:30

be. Can you explain what that term

9:32

means? Because I feel like you're saying

9:34

developmentalists, like they're kind of one... way

9:36

of thinking about. It's one way of

9:39

thinking about children and how they grow

9:41

and develop. It's not even just children.

9:43

Like from what I understand, developmental psychology

9:45

is essentially, correct me if I'm wrong,

9:47

you are tracking the norms for children

9:49

to grow into successful adults and beyond.

9:52

Like you're basically tracking people through life

9:54

and these developmental psychologists are looking at

9:56

how kids... interact and then teenagers interact

9:58

and then adults interact in their environment

10:00

and how they grow and basically have

10:03

like good relationships and healthy outcomes in

10:05

life is that Yes, that's a piece

10:07

of it. So I would say that's

10:09

a piece of it is that we're

10:11

looking at, yeah, what is normal child

10:13

development and making sure that the child's

10:16

kind of like in line with what's

10:18

normal for child development, given some like

10:20

room for differences, right, and temperament and

10:22

all those things. Like, the key piece,

10:24

like, I almost think about it as,

10:27

you know, are plants that I never

10:29

water. Yes. Oh, I'm well aware. Okay.

10:31

Okay, so it's gotten, I have plants

10:33

in the plants in the, I have

10:35

plants in the, right? Think about our

10:38

plants. Every plant that we have has

10:40

a potential to grow and develop into

10:42

the plant that it's supposed to be.

10:44

But if the environment isn't right, like

10:46

if the sun's not shining the way

10:48

it's supposed to, right? And every plant

10:51

is different. It's water too much or

10:53

not watered. The plant won't meet its

10:55

full potential. And that's essentially the same

10:57

way that we're seeing kids and adults.

10:59

So the potential is there and the

11:02

potential wants to unfold and kids want

11:04

to grow and they want to develop

11:06

and they want to mature. But if

11:08

the environment isn't conducive or isn't right

11:10

for them to be able to do

11:13

that, they will be stunted at a

11:15

certain spot or stop growing like maturing.

11:17

And so we actually do see that

11:19

a lot in let's say the preschool

11:21

age and the toddler age. That's really

11:23

the time when we're teaching our kids

11:26

to take on our calm. Right? Like

11:28

so part of having the environment successful

11:30

is they need a calm caregiver and

11:32

they need to learn how to calm

11:34

themselves through repeated exposures to a calm

11:37

caregiver, right? If a child doesn't have

11:39

that and then they reach the ages

11:41

of five to seven where this is

11:43

where they're supposed to start developing their

11:45

ability to calm themselves like a little

11:47

bit, they still need some help. But

11:50

if they never had exposure to a

11:52

calm caregiver consistently, we see that they

11:54

can't mature to the five to seven

11:56

age and they're stuck. and a lot

11:58

of kids end up getting stuck. in

12:01

kind of that toddler age of maturity

12:03

in terms of dealing with their own

12:05

emotions. That's not to say they can't

12:07

grow past it, it's to say that

12:09

the environment wasn't conducive for them to

12:12

grow past it. People will say to

12:14

me, well, when can I expect my

12:16

kid to develop past this tantrum stage?

12:18

It's not like I can just say,

12:20

at five years old, they're going to

12:22

be better. At seven years old, they're

12:24

going to be better. If the conditions

12:26

are right, meaning they have that trusted

12:28

adult and, you know, enough sleep, enough

12:30

time for play, all these things, they

12:32

will grow and develop. And that's the

12:34

theory of being a developmentalist. And it

12:36

means that we focus a lot more

12:38

of our time and attention and attention

12:40

on making the conditions right. So for

12:42

example, even potty, right? The conditions are

12:44

right for potty and I could talk

12:46

about all the things that make a

12:48

condition right. The child will learn how to

12:50

go to the potty on their own.

12:53

They will. They don't need like a

12:55

10-step program to do it. They'll just

12:57

do it. And we don't worry so

12:59

much about when exactly that's going to

13:02

happen. We just worry about making the

13:04

conditions right. So that's the lens of

13:06

a developmental, and that's why so much of

13:08

what I do. So we've had two very

13:10

well-known developmental psychologists over the past

13:12

two previous episodes, which if you

13:15

haven't listened, you should listen to

13:17

them. And they both use the

13:19

term leader for our child. First

13:21

of all, why use the term

13:23

leader at all? Like why not

13:26

just parent? Why is that an

13:28

important distinction for us? And then

13:30

second, if we're meant to be

13:32

the leader, what does true leadership

13:34

actually look like? in the busy

13:36

messy messy reality of family life,

13:39

especially with a child that's likely going

13:41

to be pushing every single boundary. So

13:43

if we're talking about those angry children

13:45

or defiant children, how can you actually

13:47

be that leader? Right. That's a huge

13:49

question. I did notice that when we talked

13:51

to Dr. McNamara. She did talk a lot

13:54

about leadership, but also being a provider. So

13:56

if provider fits nicer for you, then I

13:58

think that's also a fine work. to use?

14:00

I think there's nothing wrong with saying being

14:02

the parent. I think just right now in

14:04

this modern landscape of parenting, people don't necessarily

14:07

know what we're talking about. We say be

14:09

a parent, right? Because for some people that

14:11

means no rules and boundaries for some people.

14:13

That means being really harsh. Like it's just

14:15

not as clearly defined. When I think about

14:18

being a leader, I think about the people

14:20

I would look up to most as leaders

14:22

in my life, right? And who I wouldn't

14:24

look up to as leaders. And whenever I

14:26

do a talk, I always give like this

14:29

example of my first boss. And I worked

14:31

at a greenhouse. I was really a yeller.

14:33

So he would just yell at us all

14:35

the time. We were little children essentially at

14:37

the time. We were like 13 years old.

14:40

He would yell at us. He'd smoke cigarettes

14:42

and like blow the cigarette smoke in our

14:44

face. he would always be drinking coffee. He'd

14:46

scare us. He'd like intentionally kind of sneak

14:48

up behind us to see if we were

14:50

working. And if we weren't, he would yell

14:53

at us some more. And to me, that

14:55

person was not someone I respected or trusted.

14:57

And so when he was around, under the

14:59

threat of him blowing cigarette smoke in my

15:01

face or yelling at me, I listened and

15:04

I did what I was supposed to do

15:06

because I was terrified of him. But when

15:08

he wasn't there. not one person in that

15:10

place respected him. And so when he wasn't

15:12

there, he was made fun of, people broke

15:15

plants when they weren't supposed to, like, they

15:17

did a bunch of things that they shouldn't

15:19

have been doing, but that's because they didn't

15:21

respect their leader. And then I think about

15:23

another boss that I had whose name was

15:26

Barry, and when I worked... at the University

15:28

of Guelph at the Center of Students with

15:30

Disabilities and he was a leader as well

15:32

and when I made a mistake he would

15:34

coach me through it. If there was something

15:37

I had a hard time he would make

15:39

sure that I got the tools and training

15:41

that I needed in order to do my

15:43

job well and he treated me with respect

15:45

and he was kind to everyone he worked

15:48

with and you never met a person there

15:50

who didn't respect him and when he was

15:52

not there he was as respected as he

15:54

was when he was there. And I think

15:56

about parenting in that same way. we want

15:59

to be the leader who is like the

16:01

Barry. We want to be the leader who

16:03

gives our kids the tools that they need

16:05

to thrive in their role as a child.

16:07

And we do that through respecting them and

16:10

helping meet their needs and getting their needs

16:12

met without them having to engage in big

16:14

behaviors and challenges and stuff in order to

16:16

do that. And we give them the training

16:18

and we set the environment up. Those are

16:21

the things that a good leader does. And

16:23

that's how I kind of want us to

16:25

view this. Okay. Does that make sense? Yeah,

16:27

I think it does. The only thing that

16:29

I think you missed out on was how

16:32

do you do this, especially when the child

16:34

is pushing against you, like they're defying you,

16:36

they're pushing the boundaries. I always remember this

16:38

quote and I don't know where this comes

16:40

from, but kids who need love the most

16:43

will ask for it in the most unloving

16:45

ways. And I think about kids who push

16:47

back and who have big power struggles. In

16:49

my opinion, what these kids are asking for

16:51

is for a parent to step back into

16:54

a position of leadership. Because often what happens

16:56

is the kids that are pushing back on

16:58

us the hardest, they have become the ones

17:00

that are in control of the house. And

17:02

what I mean by that is everybody in

17:05

the house is walking on tiptoes around them,

17:07

doing everything they can to keep them happy,

17:09

because they don't want to deal with the

17:11

meltdown or the outburst, and the child ends

17:13

up being in control of the house. And

17:16

so I think what parents need to remember

17:18

is that to be the leader that child

17:20

needs, they need to step back into that

17:22

provider or that leadership position. back from their

17:24

child, right? Like if you're setting a boundary

17:27

for the first time, they're going to push

17:29

back on you, but they need you to

17:31

be in a position of leadership and to

17:33

be the one that's in charge and be

17:35

the one making the rules and setting the

17:38

dinner table and saying what time bedtime is,

17:40

like, they need that from you in order

17:42

to feel safe and then let their guard

17:44

down a little bit. Hey

17:50

friends, just interrupting the episode for a

17:53

minute just to talk to you about

17:55

bedtime if bedtime is a struggle in

17:57

your home I want you to know

17:59

that I totally get it. For years

18:01

we struggled with bedtime and that's because

18:03

we were looking at it all wrong.

18:06

We were looking at bedtime stalling and

18:08

protesting as something that our daughter was

18:10

doing that was wrong or bad but

18:12

we were missing that at the core

18:14

of the bedtime battles that we were

18:16

having we were having a separation struggle

18:18

and we needed to look at it

18:21

from a new lens. Our course solving

18:23

bedtime battles is designed to address sleep

18:25

challenges like separation anxiety coming out of

18:27

bedtime tantrums in a way that brings

18:29

you closer to your child. You'll find

18:31

everything you need video lessons in a

18:33

complete PDF script of the course so

18:36

you can learn and implement strategies in

18:38

a way that suits your life. We

18:40

know there's no one-size-fits-all approach to all

18:42

of bedtime struggles. I can't wait to

18:44

help you create a more peaceful routine

18:46

and have more restful nights for your

18:48

entire family. The course is meant for

18:51

kids ages two to 12. If you

18:53

want to learn more about solving bedtime

18:55

battles, head to the link in the

18:57

show now. And if you decide they

18:59

want to purchase it, use the code

19:01

robot unicorn, all one word, no spaces,

19:03

robot unicorn, to save 10%. Let's make

19:06

bedtime a time of peace and rest

19:08

together. All right, back to the show.

19:10

Yeah, so I know we've, in the

19:12

past, I think we have posts

19:14

on this, and you've probably talked

19:17

about it on social media too,

19:19

but we've contrasted authoritative, like a

19:21

warm structure type parenting, with authoritarian,

19:23

which is like a cold control.

19:26

type parenting, which in theory sounds

19:28

very clear. But in the heat

19:30

of a meltdown argument with your

19:32

child and when a parent feels

19:35

triggered, how can they actually embody

19:37

warmth while holding a firm line

19:39

on something? What does that feel

19:41

like for a parent? What internal

19:44

shift is required? Because I think

19:46

that that's a pretty challenging thing

19:48

for parents to do. Still, you

19:50

hold a boundary. You hold your

19:53

line, but you do it with

19:55

warmth and love. Like how does

19:57

that act? come out in reality

19:59

if you have your child who's

20:02

just screaming at you or throwing

20:04

things or hitting your their sibling?

20:06

I think one thing I like to teach

20:08

parents is when their kids are

20:10

having those moments like they're losing

20:13

their cool and you're feeling triggered

20:15

try to find something about them

20:17

that reminds you of their littleness.

20:19

We feel like we've talked about

20:21

another episode of me. Yeah I think

20:23

we have talked about that. But like on

20:25

your toddlers, find that their little

20:27

pigtails or their little fingers or

20:30

their hands or notice how they're

20:32

the same height as the table,

20:34

you know, or your bigger kids.

20:36

Like they're still little too. And

20:38

I think what happens and part

20:40

of why we get so triggered

20:42

is that it's so loud, it's

20:44

so overwhelming, and it makes us

20:46

feel like it literally signals to

20:48

our body a fight or flight

20:51

response, right? And so your body

20:53

isn't registering. This is actually just

20:55

a seven-year-old in my own house who's

20:57

losing their cool at me. Your body's actually

20:59

like, I gotta run away, there's a real

21:01

threat, or I gotta fight back, because there's

21:03

a real threat. So you need to remind

21:05

your brain and your body that you're actually

21:07

safe right now. And this is your child

21:09

who you love, who's having a really hard

21:11

time. How do you do that practically though?

21:14

Because when you're talking about fight or flight

21:16

or flight, like as you're like, like, like,

21:18

like, That's just like what I had to

21:20

do to survive as a kid. I had

21:22

to fight back and that's still to this

21:24

day like I mean I'm not doing it

21:26

anywhere even close to what I did before

21:28

but I would say my immediate instinct when

21:30

one of our kids is what I think

21:33

is being very irrational which makes sense because

21:35

they are being irrational. They are being irrational

21:37

yeah. My immediate response is like an

21:39

annoyance or anger and it's hard to

21:41

I would say it's very hard to

21:43

remind myself of these things. Yeah. I think a

21:45

few things first you have to get in the

21:47

practice of doing that when you're calm right so

21:50

you have to get into the practice of when

21:52

you are in a regulated state reminding yourself like

21:54

even set like put a little reminder on your

21:56

fridge or something like they're just little something like

21:58

that just to get in the practice of reminding

22:00

yourself of that when you are calm.

22:02

So hopefully it makes it a little

22:04

easier to access that when you're just

22:06

regulated. I think that that's a really

22:08

important thing. I think constantly remembering, just

22:11

like you said, like these are children

22:13

with immature brains and they will be

22:15

completely irrational. That's their job. Dr. Deb

22:17

said it best as she said. toddlers

22:19

qualify for basically every single mental health

22:21

diagnosis even though they're not mentally ill,

22:23

right? Like that's their job is to

22:25

be completely irrational. And so I think

22:27

when we can remember that, that helps

22:30

as well. I think the main thing

22:32

though that I would want to encourage

22:34

parents is like how you respond in

22:36

those moments will set the stage for

22:38

how your child responds in the future.

22:40

And there is something to be said

22:42

of a lot of the angry kids

22:44

that I work with have parents who

22:46

will report struggling with anger as well.

22:49

And if we are responding to our

22:51

kids with yelling, being annoyed, being frustrated,

22:53

being short, you know, grabbing their arm

22:55

in a harsh way and like pulling

22:57

them, they will start to also respond

22:59

in the same way. And so a

23:01

big call to action for parents is

23:03

you can't expect your child to be

23:06

calm if you can't provide that calm

23:08

for them. And I know that's way

23:10

easier said than done, but sometimes like

23:12

having that reality check reminder of... Wait,

23:14

I yell at my kids all the

23:16

time and I'm always frustrated with them.

23:18

How could I not expect that they're

23:20

gonna yell at me and always be

23:22

frustrated with me? Right, so sometimes that

23:25

reality check does help parents be like,

23:27

oh shoot, this is actually more about

23:29

me and my anger. And like you

23:31

talked about my childhood and I have

23:33

to process my own stuff. Right. Well,

23:35

and a lot of the research that

23:37

I was preparing with for this episode,

23:39

it all suggested that it's important that

23:41

you as the parent or the caregiver

23:44

to be calm in those moments. Because

23:46

then that allows your child to learn

23:48

how to act in a situation like

23:50

that. Yeah, what I might ask parents

23:52

who come to my office and they

23:54

want 10 practical tools and then I

23:56

say, hey, let me ask you a

23:58

deep insightful question instead. I might say,

24:01

hey, do you remember a time when

24:03

you were a kid and you were

24:05

angry? might go yeah and then I

24:07

might say okay tell me about it

24:09

and they describe a time they were

24:11

angry they were sent to their room

24:13

they were spanked for it whatever it

24:15

was right they say okay imagine being

24:17

that child again even draw it out

24:20

how do you wish your parents would

24:22

have responded to you and then often

24:24

there's tears and then often it's like

24:26

I wish they would have just asked

24:28

me what I was so angry about

24:30

or I wish they would have just

24:32

sat on my bed with me and

24:34

talked to me about it, or I

24:36

wish we could have just gone for

24:39

a walk and talked out. I was

24:41

angry, but actually I was just being

24:43

bullied all day at school, and that's

24:45

why I came home and started yelling

24:47

at my brother. There's always something deeper

24:49

that was going on for the parents

24:51

that I worked with, and then that

24:53

deeper thing wasn't addressed with their parents,

24:55

and then they became angry. And then

24:58

to go back to the developmentalist standpoint,

25:00

a lot of. their emotional maturity past

25:02

these young ages, because they never had

25:04

someone to help them with that. So

25:06

now you're an adult, you're trying to

25:08

figure it out for the first time.

25:10

It's a lot. Yeah, and I think

25:12

we've talked about that before, I've made

25:15

comments before that statistically speaking, we receive

25:17

the most angry messages from people who

25:19

have purchased the anger toolkit from us.

25:21

It makes sense from what you're talking

25:23

about, that a lot of parents... They're

25:25

kind of passing that down, that trait

25:27

down to their kids. We legitimately see

25:29

that in the responses that we get.

25:31

And it's not as though that that

25:34

product is any different from like any

25:36

worse or better than the other ones.

25:38

It's great, but it's just interesting to

25:40

see that play out on a little

25:42

bit larger scale. Yeah, and I want

25:44

to say I have so much compassion

25:46

for those parents, right? Like I'm not

25:48

passing any judgment because exactly what we're

25:50

talking about, I think parents do well

25:53

when they can too. Just like kids

25:55

can do well when they can, like

25:57

Ross Green says, right? Like if parents

25:59

haven't ever been given tools to deal

26:01

with their own anger, and now all

26:03

of a sudden you have a three-year-old

26:05

who makes absolutely no sense and is

26:07

like chucking a bullat. respond, we have

26:10

to expect that our kids are going

26:12

to also be angry and respond in

26:14

the same way back. Yeah, I think

26:16

that makes sense. My idea or thesis

26:18

for this episode was that there are

26:20

a few key things that parents can

26:22

do that will significantly impact the way

26:24

they are leader in their household and

26:26

make them better and more effective as

26:29

a parent. So I've found a few

26:31

key things that all of the development

26:33

to psychologists I looked into would agree

26:35

on, I think. And maybe you can

26:37

help define what they mean and explain

26:39

why this is helpful for parents. So

26:41

the first is felt safety and how

26:43

felt safety is key and that comes

26:45

from Gordon Neufeld. And I think for

26:48

parents what's important is understanding like a

26:50

child might be objectively safe. So they

26:52

live in a nice home, they have

26:54

all their needs met, they do extracurriculars

26:56

and they do lots of fun stuff

26:58

and all of that they have food,

27:00

but they might not actually feel safe.

27:02

So what are the subtle and maybe

27:04

not so subtle ways parents accidentally make

27:07

their child feel unsafe emotionally which triggers

27:09

that defeniveness or that anger or that

27:11

defiance? So some ways we can make

27:13

our kids feel unsafe emotionally without realizing

27:15

we're doing it? Yes, and then how

27:17

like how can we flip that script?

27:19

Right. One of the things I think

27:21

parents do without realizing that this is

27:24

making their child feel unsafe is they

27:26

are keeping their children incredibly busy. I

27:28

think this is one of the most

27:30

under talked about issues right now is

27:32

kids are... so busy. So for example,

27:34

they go to school all day and

27:36

then every night there's like a different

27:38

extracurricular, weekends are filled with play dates,

27:40

you and I have talked about this

27:43

on the show before, but when kids

27:45

are so busy, that means it's taking

27:47

away from something and it's taking away

27:49

from A, there's time to rest, which

27:51

is to simply exist without demands. Kids

27:53

can play and our children need time

27:55

to process what's happening in their life

27:57

through play. It's very essential for their

27:59

development. and their growth, and they miss

28:02

out on quality time with their parents,

28:04

right? You might think you're with your

28:06

child, but really you're bringing them and

28:08

then they're with their coach or they're

28:11

with their teammates or they're with their

28:13

friends, and when we keep kids so

28:15

busy, they lose that togetherness with their

28:17

parent. So I think that is one

28:20

way that parents who are good and

28:22

kind and have the best intentions for

28:24

their kids and they wonder why their

28:27

kids are so angry. Maybe they're too

28:29

busy and we need to take some things off

28:31

of our plates. I think another thing that can

28:33

unintentionally lead to anger in a child is a

28:35

parent who has a very difficult time holding their

28:37

boundaries. So for example, you know, you say, okay,

28:39

you have one show and then we're going to

28:41

turn it off. Then it comes time to turn

28:43

it off and the child says, no, I don't

28:45

want to turn it off. The parent goes, okay,

28:48

fine, one more show. One more show, one more

28:50

show, but then the next day when you say

28:52

it's time to turn it off, they have a

28:54

huge meltdown and start getting angry and screaming. It's

28:56

because they don't trust your boundary, right? They know

28:58

that. Hey, if I'm loud enough, my parents gonna let me watch more shows,

29:00

or whatever it is that the boundary is not being firm on. If you

29:02

look at how behavior is even reinforced, right? So if one day you say

29:04

to your kid, I'm going to turn off the TV, and then you let

29:06

them watch three more episodes, and then the next day you say you have

29:08

to turn off the TV, and you end up letting them watch two more,

29:10

and then the next day, no, you have to turn it off, and then

29:12

you have to turn it off, and then you have to turn it off,

29:14

and then you have to turn it off, and then you have to turn

29:16

it off, and then you have to turn it off, and then you have

29:18

to, and then you have to, and then you have to, and then you

29:20

have to, and then you have to, and then you have to, and then

29:22

you have to, and then you, and then you, and then you, and then

29:24

you, and then you, and then you, and then they're not being able to

29:26

rest in your leadership, right? Because they don't know if you're gonna change your

29:29

mind or not on your boundary. So that's

29:31

another thing. That sounds like something I've done

29:33

though. Yeah, most parents have done this. It's just

29:35

some degree, but you have to understand like, okay,

29:37

once in a while changing your mind on a

29:39

show, sure. But if your child consistently expects you

29:42

to not hold firm to your boundaries based on

29:44

their emotional response, what they're gonna do. is not

29:46

just the next time be like, yeah, no problem,

29:48

I'll turn off the TV, it's just gonna up

29:50

their emotional response, right? And then if that doesn't

29:53

work, they're gonna up it, and they're gonna up

29:55

it. And all of a sudden, we have these

29:57

angry kids and these parents who say, I'm trying

29:59

to. set rules, but they don't listen to

30:02

me. We have to tune in with

30:04

how firm and consistent are you with

30:06

your boundaries. Because if you're not, and

30:08

as soon as they have an emotional

30:10

reaction, you let the boundary go, they

30:12

can't rest in your leadership. I feel

30:14

like there is a key distinction there,

30:16

though. I feel like you have to

30:18

define what a good versus bad boundary

30:20

is, because I feel like I've heard

30:22

some parents. Can I almost threaten their

30:24

child with their child with their boundary?

30:26

Like if you don't. But that also

30:28

kind of sounds like a boundary. Like

30:30

you're setting a boundary. If you don't

30:32

do this thing, then here's the consequence

30:34

to that action. You have to go

30:36

to your room and you have to

30:38

go to bed right away. Yeah, I

30:40

hear you. Here's a shift that's really

30:42

helps me when boundary setting with our

30:44

kids. I now make boundaries that I

30:46

now make boundaries that I can effectively

30:48

enforce myself and the kids have to

30:51

do nothing. So for example, let's go

30:53

back to the TV situation. I go

30:55

ahead and I turn off the TV.

30:57

I'm never expecting a child with an

30:59

immature brain to take over and make

31:01

the right decision in that situation. My

31:03

job is to be the mature brain

31:05

and make the right decision. And so

31:07

I think with boundaries, parents can get

31:09

stuck in, you have to do this

31:11

or else this, but they're expecting a

31:13

small child with a brain who hasn't

31:15

developed logic or reasoning or anything to

31:17

make the right choice. Again, you're setting

31:19

your child up to probably make the

31:21

wrong choice and then get in trouble.

31:23

So instead if you can try to

31:25

focus your boundaries more on something that

31:27

you can do, like, I'm going to

31:29

bring you up for bed at 7

31:31

o'clock tonight. That's the time that we're

31:33

going to get ready for bed and

31:35

we're going to get ready for bed.

31:37

Instead of when you see the clock

31:40

at 7 o'clock, you need to go

31:42

get ready for bed. So it's like

31:44

little tweaks that we can do that

31:46

help us to be the leader and

31:48

help us be the leader and to

31:50

be the leader and teach our children

31:52

how to be the leader and teach

31:54

our children how to make these The

31:56

next tool is collect before you direct.

31:58

Beautiful. And the keys to connect first.

32:00

Yeah. Can you give a real life

32:02

example? What does this look like when

32:04

a child is mid tantrum actively rejecting?

32:06

Any connection that you're trying to give

32:08

them? And where does a parent even

32:10

begin with this? So I'll say the

32:12

collect before direct is good for tantrums,

32:14

but that is definitely a tool that

32:16

you want to use proactively. So the

32:18

collect before direct, I think about like

32:20

mornings are usually complete chaos. You know,

32:22

you're trying to get kids ready for

32:24

school out the door and lunches made

32:26

backpacks, blah, blah, blah. And then you

32:28

yell at your kid or from across

32:31

the room, right, hey, so-so-and-so, put on

32:33

put on your coat. They're not listening

32:35

to you. They're playing Barbies on the

32:37

floor, right? Like, stop playing Barbies and

32:39

put on your coat. They're not listening

32:41

to you. And then you think to

32:43

yourself, oh my goodness, I have such

32:45

a frustrating child. Like just put on

32:47

your coat, it's not that hard. And

32:49

then you yell at them, right? Speaking

32:51

from experience. Do you yell? I don't

32:53

know. Not that I yell. But I

32:55

get frustrated with them, right? Yeah. The

32:57

better alternative would be to take. that

32:59

same amount of time, go to your

33:01

child, sit on the floor beside them

33:03

while they play their Barbies, and say,

33:05

well, what you playing right now? Oh,

33:07

I'm playing Barbies. Oh, cool, what are

33:09

the Barbies doing? And then they tell

33:11

you, okay, so just want to let

33:13

you know, it's time to put the

33:15

Barbies down and start getting our coats

33:17

on. Do you think you can do

33:20

that with me? You can even hold

33:22

one Barbie while you put your coat

33:24

on. Boom. they will be more cooperative

33:26

and want to work with us. That's

33:28

the collect before direct and it is

33:30

huge. And often if parents just start

33:32

doing that, like even at the playground,

33:34

I remember I started doing that with

33:36

our oldest because she hated to leave

33:38

the playground too. So much FOMO, she

33:40

wanted to stay there forever. And it

33:42

changed everything when I would start. Hey,

33:44

what you doing? Oh, you playing with

33:46

the steering wheel? Oh, you're pretending it's

33:48

a ship? Yeah, mommy, it's a ship.

33:50

Cool. Oh, my goodness. Oh, I see

33:52

a crocodile, whatever. And then, okay, just

33:54

so you know, one more minute, it

33:56

changes everything. In the moment of a

33:58

tantrum, it changes everything. In the moment

34:00

of a tantrum, you're not going to

34:02

be saying tons of stuff, because just...

34:04

more overwhelming but you'd still get on

34:06

their level before you start telling them

34:09

what to do and even with the

34:11

tantruming child right like imagine getting on

34:13

their level putting your hands out holding

34:15

their little hands and they're freaking out

34:17

hey I see you I see you're

34:19

having a hard time right now yeah

34:21

oh you really wanted the cup yeah

34:23

I totally get that I want to

34:25

help you out okay do you think

34:27

you can come with mommy we're we're

34:29

gonna go walk over to the other

34:31

room let's go sit together in a

34:33

chair It calms you, your calming voice,

34:35

your quiet voice, helps to calm them,

34:37

and then you can get them moving

34:39

and you can go somewhere else. Sounds

34:41

great. Do you feel regulated? Me just

34:43

talking to you like that? Yes, I

34:45

feel very regulated right now with how

34:47

calm you were to me. I wish

34:49

you would always talk to me like

34:51

that. That's what Scott needs and he's

34:53

having, yeah. Yeah. I have two more

34:55

emotion coaching, so I think this is

34:58

from the Gottman Institute. Yeah. John Gottman,

35:00

validating feelings before setting limits. Where do

35:02

parents get this wrong potentially? And is

35:04

there a risk of validating too much

35:06

inadvertently excusing poor behavior? So how do

35:08

you teach parents to navigate that fine

35:10

line? Yeah, we want to remember that

35:12

both are important, right? I think in

35:14

the current trends, validating feelings maybe becomes

35:16

more important than the boundary, but we

35:18

have to remember we need to be

35:20

the leader of child needs, right? And

35:22

the leader of our child needs sets

35:24

boundaries so that they don't hurt themselves

35:26

or others. That keeps them safe. And

35:28

so parents need to remember. Setting boundaries

35:30

like I'm going to hold your hand

35:32

so you don't hit your sister, right?

35:34

That keeps them safe because they don't

35:36

actually want to hurt someone else. And

35:38

when they do hurt someone else, they

35:40

feel shame and then they have more

35:42

anger. So it just becomes a cycle.

35:44

So I would say where we go.

35:47

So it just becomes a cycle. So

35:49

I would say where we go wrong

35:51

with validating feelings is if we leave.

35:53

So I would say where we go

35:55

wrong with validating feelings is if we

35:57

leave a boundary. So it just becomes

35:59

a cycle. So I would say where

36:01

we go wrong with validating a boundary.

36:03

And man, you're angry. You really didn't

36:05

want your sister to take your toy.

36:07

I hear you. Why don't I hold

36:09

your hands for a minute until your

36:11

body is feeling safe again? And then

36:13

we're gonna go talk. to your sister

36:15

about the toy. Something like that. So

36:17

that we're doing both. We're keeping them

36:19

physically safe and emotionally. We're validating their

36:21

feeling and they know that we get

36:23

it. Mm-hmm. I think that makes sense.

36:25

All right. If a parent listening today

36:27

feels completely overwhelmed, exhausted, and maybe even

36:29

like they are failing potentially, what is

36:31

one piece of actionable hope or something?

36:33

The first small step you would offer

36:36

them right now based on everything we've

36:38

discussed. The grace that you give yourself

36:40

and the compassion that you give to

36:42

yourself will pour out into the compassion

36:44

that you can give your kids. So

36:46

if you can't extend grace to yourself

36:48

to say, look, I've had a hard

36:50

day, it's been really tough, and I

36:52

know I want to do better, and

36:54

tomorrow is, you know, we're going to

36:56

have a fresh start. If you can't

36:58

give that grace to yourself, it's really

37:00

hard to give that grace to your

37:02

kids. So I want parents to know

37:04

that they don't have to do things

37:06

perfect. you don't have to say things

37:08

exactly the way I say it, give

37:10

yourself some grace. And then think about

37:12

that little child inside of you who

37:14

maybe wasn't allowed to feel your emotions

37:16

or who was sent to their room

37:18

to be alone and keep asking yourself,

37:20

what did I need as a kid?

37:22

Because likely, that's the same thing that

37:25

you need now and your kid needs

37:27

now as well. Yeah. the harder we

37:29

are on ourselves we end up taking

37:31

that out on our kids yeah and

37:33

so give yourself grace remember you don't

37:35

do it perfect and that will translate

37:37

to the way that you treat your

37:39

children as well yeah being a parent

37:41

is not about being perfect leaders make

37:43

mistakes yeah parents make mistakes it's about

37:45

being consistent over the long term yeah

37:47

Yeah, it's about like continual, continual growth

37:49

as a parent, just trying to do

37:51

a little bit better every time and

37:53

just, and you might backtrack a little

37:55

bit and do something wrong and then

37:57

do it better the next time after

37:59

that. It's okay to have to repair

38:01

with your child too. I was just

38:03

gonna say remember that. apologies are there

38:05

just for that reason. It is beautiful

38:07

to model apologizing to your kid and

38:09

that might be the thing that you

38:11

never had when you were a kid

38:13

was an apology. So even that is

38:16

progress. So take note of those little

38:18

things that you do that make you

38:20

the leader of your home and remember

38:22

that when you make these little changes

38:24

that Scott and I were talking about

38:26

today. It will bring you closer in

38:28

relationship with your child as well, which

38:30

makes parenting feel more fulfilling and does

38:32

it make things better overall. So there's

38:34

a lot of hope and I'm so

38:36

glad that we could hopefully offer some

38:38

of that to you today. Hey friends,

38:40

thank you so much for listening to

38:42

today's episode. We are glad that you

38:44

were here. If you enjoyed today's episode

38:46

and found it interesting, we'd really appreciate

38:48

it if you'd leave a rating and

38:50

a review. Scott and I actually sit

38:52

down together and read them all. A

38:54

five-star rating helps us share our podcast

38:56

and get these important messages out there.

38:58

Thank you so much for listening and

39:00

we can't wait to talk to you

39:02

again next time.