0:03

If you've ever labeled

0:05

your child as explosive, strong

0:07

-willed, sensitive, or angry, we

0:09

have created a course that

0:11

is here to support you.

0:13

Our brand new anger course

0:15

is now available for purchase.

0:17

It's available right now. You're

0:19

going to get 35 video

0:21

lessons between one and four

0:23

minutes long that are practical,

0:25

insightful, useful, and based off

0:27

of what real parents were

0:29

asking us for when it

0:31

comes to angry kids. It's

0:33

available right now. It's brand new. We cannot

0:35

wait to support you at this course. Head

0:37

to the link in the show notes to

0:39

grab it. Welcome

0:48

to Robot Unicorn, hosted

0:51

by my parents, Jess

0:53

and Scott. I hope

0:55

you enjoyed the episode. You

1:02

just introduced yourself. My name is Brooklyn

1:04

Marks, psychotherapist, friend

1:06

of Jess and

1:08

Scott's. I work

1:10

with families and

1:13

individuals and kids

1:15

with perinatal parenting, also

1:17

disability sport, and it's something I've

1:19

always loved to do. I feel like

1:22

when I met you, you wanted to

1:24

do a different type of counseling. Genetic counseling.

1:26

Genetic counseling. That was my goal at

1:28

the time. Yeah, which is what? Can you

1:30

explain what that is? Yeah, so it's

1:32

basically supporting parents with understanding their genetics

1:34

before they have kids or after

1:36

they have kids, understanding diseases and any

1:38

kind of dispositions that their kids

1:40

might have. So my parents, when I

1:42

got diagnosed with my disability, went to

1:44

a genetic counselor, had the testing done,

1:46

kind of got diagnosed, and then they

1:48

kind of worked with my parents

1:50

through what my disability was, what it

1:53

might look like. And at that time,

1:55

I was already diagnosed. I was like

1:57

two years old, so I was

1:59

already established. they did like testing on my

2:01

brother and like some other family. But a

2:03

lot of people see genetic counselors prior

2:05

to having kids that they know that

2:07

they're a carrier for something or they

2:09

want to know kind of like options

2:11

of what to look for and like

2:13

different options alternatives, stuff like that. So

2:15

that was my intentional goal when I

2:17

went to university. And it's a very

2:19

better to program. I think there's like

2:21

80 people per year in Canada that

2:24

get accepted. After a couple years, I

2:26

was like just not feeling realistic, not

2:28

attainable. And I kind of shifted more

2:30

to the psychology social support rather than

2:32

medical support. It was kind of

2:34

where my interest ended up gearing

2:36

towards the university. So would you say

2:38

that's roughly what you're doing now? That's

2:40

where I ended up being good. And

2:42

I kind of started looking. out programs,

2:44

I was a few years behind us.

2:47

So I kind of saw where she

2:49

went with school, I kind of like

2:51

cured accordingly, similar trajectory, and it ended

2:53

up being where I wanted to be.

2:55

I feel like it was one of

2:57

the things we bonded over early on,

3:00

right? So just some history on Brooklyn

3:02

and I, I worked with you and

3:04

for you for a time as a

3:06

personal support worker. But in doing that,

3:08

we ended up just spending all of

3:10

our time together. every morning and then

3:13

I think for a while I was

3:15

doing almost all of my care. Your

3:17

care, your personal care, and so we

3:19

just ended up spending like hours together

3:21

every single day and I would come

3:23

to your house and we would just

3:25

study between personal care appointments and we

3:27

would talk about school and life and

3:29

everything. And so I feel like our

3:32

passions just kind of aligned and that's

3:34

really what drew us to each other

3:36

and we just always had so much

3:38

to talk about. I always kind of

3:40

missed those days like a simpler time.

3:42

I know it was really simple. Everything

3:45

seemed easy. It was just work. I'll

3:47

go to Brooklyn. It's funny. Spend a

3:49

few hours there. Yeah. Well it's funny

3:51

because yesterday we were recording an

3:54

episode that will be going out

3:56

the week before this one. And

3:58

you're talking about Barry. thought about

4:00

in a while in so long. It's funny

4:02

how we're talking about it, basically the same

4:04

time frame right now. I was talking about,

4:07

so Barry is also someone who

4:09

I talked about in that episode before

4:11

this if you haven't listened, and I

4:13

was explaining how he was a good

4:16

boss, a good leader, but that's

4:18

also someone who Brooklyn knows. So you

4:20

can, uh... He guided me through all

4:22

of university, and I think my experience

4:25

in university was only as good

4:27

as it was because of him. Absolutely

4:29

certain TI toured tons of universities, different

4:31

student supports, and nothing even came close

4:34

to what he was able to like offer and

4:36

the support and guidance that he gave was

4:38

just next level. Yeah, the program that he

4:40

ran and the support he offered was incredible.

4:43

Yeah. Yeah, we were talking about him yesterday

4:45

and I was just thinking about how incredible

4:47

he was and then I was like referring

4:49

to leadership and parenting and I was like,

4:52

we need to be like Barry essentially. Yeah,

4:54

it's totally true. I could see that. Yeah.

4:56

To go back to our history. So I

4:58

worked with you for you. We became really

5:01

good friends. Then we just stayed really good

5:03

friends. forever. Still are. And then when I

5:05

was starting our mama village was

5:07

Scott. Before that. Jessica Grace blog.

5:10

It was prior to even our

5:12

mama village. When we were starting

5:14

Jessica Grace blog, I remember you

5:16

came over to our apartment. We

5:19

did a whiteboard of all the

5:21

things that we wanted to talk

5:23

about. We made a plan. For

5:25

blogness. For blogness. Yeah. That was.

5:28

It was like once was it every

5:30

day or something. leading up to Christmas?

5:32

Yeah, we did one blog every

5:34

day leading up to Christmas for

5:36

a month. I think your goal

5:38

is to get like 2,000 people.

5:40

Yeah, and our goal the first

5:42

year is like, it would be

5:44

amazing if we could grow a

5:46

community of followers on Facebook, I

5:48

think it was to 2,000 people,

5:50

and it ended up taking us

5:52

a long time to get to

5:54

2,000 people in the community that,

5:56

yeah, Brooklyn's been working with us

5:58

since Jessica Grace... blog turned into our

6:01

momma village was turned into nurtured first and

6:03

you've been there every single step of the

6:05

way. It's been very cool to see it

6:07

grow. Yeah well and you've been part of

6:09

it right even a huge part of helping

6:11

it grow. And now you're on the podcast.

6:13

And now you're on the podcast. And now

6:15

you're on the podcast because apparently guys have

6:18

podcast mail. Yeah. What? So Brooksman with us

6:20

since day one on our moma village and

6:22

Jessica Grace blog and Richard first so I

6:24

feel like everyone should give you look around

6:26

of applause of applause for dealing with Scott

6:28

for... Those many, not many. How is this

6:30

all of a sudden turned on

6:33

me? Sure, that's unfair. Yeah. Gosh.

6:35

That's why, that's why you get

6:37

the round of a plus, but.

6:39

I'll take it. Just because of

6:41

having to deal with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

6:43

All of yours. It takes a

6:46

certain type of personality for

6:48

sure. But all that to say,

6:50

we love you. Yeah. Thanks for being

6:52

on. Yeah. Happy to be here. Happy

6:55

to be here. Yeah. Happy to be

6:57

here. Before we get into like

6:59

all of the advice, because today's

7:01

topic, we want to talk to

7:03

you about speaking to our kids

7:05

about disability. And I feel like

7:07

this conversation applies to a lot

7:09

more than just about disability, but

7:11

maybe you can explain. So you

7:13

have what's called SMA or spinal

7:15

muscular atrophy. Yep. Could you? Nailed

7:17

it. Wow, good job. Thank you.

7:19

Even doctors don't get it. Cheers

7:21

to you. Could you explain what

7:23

that means? So first of all,

7:25

like what that actually is. Yeah. to know

7:28

most people know what ALS is, and I would

7:30

say it's the child version of that. You know,

7:32

it's different in terms of genetics, but

7:34

starts when you're young, typically, depending on

7:36

what type you are on type two. So

7:38

what I started when I was two was

7:40

when I got diagnosed, and it kind of

7:43

just slowly muscles deteriorate over time. So kind

7:45

of similar to ALS, but a little bit

7:47

more gradual. Again, depending on what type. type

7:49

you are. It's a big spectrum so

7:52

my symptoms started when I was like

7:54

18 months and then my parents took

7:56

a while to get diagnosed because it's

7:58

technically rare in my It's not rare

8:01

because it's very common. Because I have

8:03

so many people. That is hard

8:05

to conceptualize it being rare, but technically

8:07

it's rare. So it was harder to get

8:09

diagnosed. How long would you say it took

8:11

your parents to figure it out when you

8:13

were young? I mean, my mom knew something

8:15

was wrong around 10 months. So it took

8:17

over a year to an actual diagnosis.

8:19

We're from a small town. So that didn't

8:22

help because they kind of just dismissed her

8:24

and my mom has some really good nursing

8:26

friends that were pushing to really make it

8:28

clear that like you need to be pushing

8:30

for further investigation and looking into what might

8:33

be going on. So I think she saw

8:35

a few doctors in the area and then

8:37

finally pushed to get referred to London, which

8:39

is the bigger city and it was diagnosed

8:41

like immediately there because they were familiar with

8:43

it, but our small town. Yeah, right. She had

8:46

a lot of pushback from doctors saying it

8:48

was like difference between a boy and a

8:50

boy and a girl. because I don't have

8:52

a brother just like first in your second

8:54

and like just different kids. But that was

8:57

not it. And you know, my mom knew.

8:59

Yeah, yeah, they knew immediately. So I feel

9:01

even that in itself is such a powerful

9:03

thing to just say to parents, like if

9:05

you feel something's wrong, push for it. I

9:08

mean, I say that to parents, it's like

9:10

no one that's going to be as good

9:12

of an advocate for your children as you

9:14

will be, and no one's going to care

9:16

as much about your children as you will,

9:19

and so sometimes that means you say,

9:21

no, I still feel like something's wrong,

9:23

even if the doctor's like, oh, no,

9:26

I still feel like something's wrong, even

9:28

if the doctor's like, oh no, it's

9:30

still feel like something's wrong, like, like,

9:32

you know, it's clearly... There was

9:34

physical symptoms and she pushed

9:37

for it and ended up getting what

9:39

she needed to know at the time. It's

9:41

changed a lot since then. Yeah, I bet.

9:43

Yeah, I bet. You know, 30 years is

9:45

very different. Yeah, no kidding. Yeah, for sure.

9:47

Yeah. Yeah. So again, before we get

9:49

into any of the advice, can

9:52

you talk about some of your

9:54

earliest memories related to SMA? Specifically

9:56

around how adults, parents, teachers, strangers,

9:59

strangers, talked. to you or

10:01

about you about your disability?

10:03

Yeah, couldn't count on the

10:05

amount of times where strangers

10:08

interjects, come up, poor girl,

10:10

so sweet, do you skip me

10:12

money when I was little or

10:14

cookies and all kinds of stuff,

10:17

like the amount of things

10:19

that strangers do, weird, lots

10:21

of praying for you, lots of

10:23

touching your head, like, and I

10:26

remember that from a very young

10:28

age, like. two, three, four. So it

10:30

was either that, or it was

10:32

very like, belittling, like, oh, she

10:34

doesn't need to be included, or

10:36

oh, like, she can just sit

10:38

on the side, or oh, like,

10:40

that's fine, but we're doing this.

10:42

Right. Like, like, an exclusion. So,

10:45

yeah. Those are the two big

10:47

ones. The strangers were, like, most

10:49

memorable, mostly because I just didn't

10:51

get it. Right. to go buy a

10:53

tree. The money kills me, like

10:55

really? Yeah, go buy yourself a

10:58

tree, like give him a tune.

11:00

Interesting. And like my brother would

11:02

be like, what the heck, like,

11:04

I want a tune? She got

11:07

this, like he would just look

11:09

to my mom, like, how can

11:11

she gets this? And we would

11:13

gently say no thank you, but

11:15

they push. Yeah. So I'd say

11:17

that was like my earliest. And I

11:19

mean that goes all the way, I

11:22

still get strangers doing stuff, but especially

11:24

when you're a little kid who's really

11:26

cute in a little chair. You're a

11:28

very cute girl. I was a very cute

11:31

child, right? Well, need to find a

11:33

picture to share on Instagram. You were

11:35

the cutest kid. Well, on hair, blue eyes,

11:37

like, little doll sitting in a chair. But

11:39

I feel like as a kid, then it

11:41

right away tells you like there's something. People

11:44

notice. Yeah, people notice it. Yeah. So how

11:46

do you feel about that when you're a

11:48

child? Like do you have a certain feeling

11:50

about that when you were a kid? It

11:53

was strange because I was always just in

11:55

my own world. Like I didn't really think

11:57

of what other people were seeing or like

11:59

interpreting. At that age, and I don't know

12:01

if that came with time, I was just

12:03

always confused by those reactions, and I was

12:06

a very typical kid, like, to play and

12:08

go about my own business and want to

12:10

join the store and cry if you don't

12:12

get to join the store. And like, it

12:15

was just a very typical experience, and I

12:17

was just confused when that happened, and I

12:19

would kind of just aloof it off. When

12:21

I was really young, I would just kind

12:23

of push it away, and just be like,

12:25

okay, that's weird. and then just

12:28

continue on. But I think as I

12:30

got older when I was closer to like

12:32

pre-teen, it started being a bit

12:34

more internalized. I was like, okay,

12:36

like people notice this, can't really hide

12:38

it, this is weird. And then you

12:40

kind of like interpret their messages,

12:43

it's like, oh, you know, if you

12:45

want to pray for me, then maybe

12:47

there's something wrong with me to be

12:49

prayed for. This idea of a lot

12:52

of people coming to use being like,

12:54

oh, I'll pray for your healing. I

12:56

don't need that actually, like I don't

12:58

need you to pray for my healing.

13:01

Yeah, and there isn't. And there isn't,

13:03

yeah. I had that age, I'm like,

13:05

there is no treatment, there's no way

13:07

to stop it. Like thank you for

13:10

the intention, but like it didn't really

13:12

do much other than tell me that

13:14

it needed to be text, which

13:16

is the message that I don't think

13:19

kids need when they're navigating

13:21

that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and

13:23

it changes as you go through

13:25

like different teachers, different principals behaving

13:27

in certain ways. We had a

13:29

really tough time in our school

13:31

system where I was the only

13:33

kid with a physical disability strictly

13:35

in my school all the way

13:37

from kindergarten to grade 12. So

13:39

I was the only one that

13:41

was like in mainstream classes just

13:43

with the physical disability and that

13:45

was a lot of pushback from

13:47

teachers and principles. making assumptions that

13:49

I need to be in different

13:52

classes, special education, in the hallway.

13:54

We had a lot of weird experiences,

13:56

and my mom was an

13:58

incredible advocate. and she fought

14:00

for everything all the way through, but

14:03

we had a very messy education

14:05

experience and I saw it all. Right. Because I'm,

14:07

you know, think people assume that children

14:09

aren't listening and not paying attention

14:12

and they're just like in the

14:14

room. Yeah, right. But you hear

14:16

everything. You see everything. Yep. You soak

14:18

it up. You internalize it. And then

14:20

you get confused. When you're like, okay,

14:22

if you're saying one thing and then

14:24

you're doing this. It's confusing and I

14:26

think I got that more and more as

14:29

I got older. Totally like it's so sad

14:31

to think and you know because we've been

14:33

talking about this too with like the book

14:35

and stuff like that but like you actually

14:37

were fine with everything right you're like I'm

14:40

not broken I'm good I'm okay yes I

14:42

have a disability but it wasn't like in

14:44

your head an issue no until other people

14:46

started making that an issue yeah until I

14:48

learned that that was a narrative. Yeah, and

14:50

then that becomes the story that you tell

14:53

yourself. I am broken, I guess. Like, I

14:55

didn't think it was, but I guess I

14:57

am. Do you remember a time when that

14:59

kind of shifted more from like, yeah, I'm

15:01

fine. I'm a normal kid to like, I

15:03

feel like I'm broken? I want to

15:05

say grade five, six, seven. That makes

15:07

sense. That's the age. And you know exactly

15:10

that, right, right? That age for girls

15:12

in general is hard. And I think

15:14

that's when peers started changing the way

15:16

they treated changing the way they treated

15:19

me. I started being able to understand

15:21

what adults were saying more and making

15:23

connections that all of a sudden, making

15:25

these connections that are different than what

15:28

I interpreted before, because I

15:30

finally had that developmental ability

15:32

to actually understand that information

15:34

and make. these different connections to what

15:36

was going on, which we see a

15:38

lot for that age, is you start

15:41

understanding things a lot more differently. Yeah,

15:43

and you're saying that as therapists,

15:45

that's the age that you're seeing. That's

15:47

why we're like nodding, yeah. Because we see

15:50

a lot of girls in our practice, Brooklyn

15:52

also works with me at my therapy practice,

15:54

but we see a lot of girls at

15:56

our practice that are that age, grade five,

15:59

six, seven, and... It wasn't just you, it

16:01

was the girls in the class also were

16:03

going through their own probably identity crisis, but

16:05

then everybody's always taking it so personal because

16:08

we're not recognizing every kid in the class

16:10

is struggling. And it's so hard. And then

16:12

the message becomes, I'm broken and I'm the

16:14

issue. Yeah. Because when I was young, it

16:16

was usually adults that gave me that message.

16:19

I never felt that way from kids. Yeah.

16:21

Like when I was, you know, grade five

16:23

under was like, I had tons of friends.

16:25

They were very inclusive. I was invited to

16:27

all the birthday parties. It was very like

16:30

easy and it didn't feel weird. Kids are

16:32

so forgiving, right? They're just like, oh, you're

16:34

in charge. Okay. Yeah, it doesn't really face

16:36

them, right? Even see it with our girls.

16:38

Yeah. They come up to you and they're

16:41

like, want to ride on your wheelchair with

16:43

you. Yeah, you're just in this and they

16:45

don't really ask questions. They don't have any.

16:47

Yeah, that's what it is. Like it's so

16:49

easy. And then like five, six, once kids

16:52

start getting the ability to start questioning and

16:54

understanding things. And that's when it shifted, I

16:56

would say. Yeah. Is when it started to

16:58

become pure driven as well. Okay. It makes

17:01

sense. Yeah, that's an extra dynamic that you're

17:03

adding. Yeah, before it was just adult strangers

17:05

who were weird. So then you have both.

17:07

You have adult strangers. Yeah, and adult, not

17:09

strangers. Yep. Treating you kind of. like pity

17:12

like looking down on you or treating you

17:14

different or exceptional or exceptional we swing one

17:16

way or the other what do you mean

17:18

by that a lot of inspirational you're so

17:20

amazing you're so wonderful you're such an inspiration

17:23

to me like for breathing yeah yeah for

17:25

getting out of bed in the morning you

17:27

thought I could never do what you do

17:29

like you're so strong It's like I understand

17:31

the intention. Condescending, kind of. Well, it's kind

17:34

of like I didn't do anything. Yeah, right.

17:36

I'm just living my life here. So, Brooke,

17:38

I don't know if you remember this, but

17:40

I have learned so much from you, obviously,

17:43

about disability. But I remember when I started

17:45

working with you and we just got along

17:47

really well off the bat and I think

17:49

there was someone else working for the same

17:51

company that I was working at, like a

17:54

few people, you know where I'm going. And

17:56

one of them really kind of baby do,

17:58

like treated you like a baby and I

18:00

remember you starting to like rants and me

18:02

the more comfortable we got with each other

18:05

about this worker that you had that would

18:07

be like honey and stuff like that. And

18:09

then I remember one day she called you

18:11

like an inspiration to her. And then I

18:13

saw you after and you were like, I'm

18:16

not an inspiration. What do I do? I

18:18

just sit around and watch TV all day.

18:20

Like how is this inspiring? And I just

18:22

always will remember that sticking out to me,

18:25

right? Because I think so many people probably

18:27

come to you and be like, you're an

18:29

inspiration. And you're like, that actually is more

18:31

offensive to me than you not saying anything.

18:33

Yeah. The intent is good. The intent is

18:36

pure. They want to recognize that I face

18:38

challenges. and I had to deal with them,

18:40

but I have to deal with them. I'm

18:42

not like choosing, like I didn't win a

18:44

Nobel Prize. Like I'm not like, just doing

18:47

anything, I'm just existing. And I think when

18:49

it's framed as inspirational solely because I'm living

18:51

with a disability, that's when it's not. Okay,

18:53

because it's like if there's, you know, when

18:55

it's strangers especially that are like saying that,

18:58

I'm like I could be a horrible human.

19:00

You don't know me. And you're making this

19:02

assumption solely because of the terror. That's when

19:04

it's like, and then it's going to be

19:06

$5. What can they actually buy you? It's

19:09

not going to fix your wheelchair. It's not

19:11

going to fix your wheelchair. It's not enough.

19:13

Like, maybe it's $500. Oh, so it's different

19:15

if it's like... Like if it's a thousand

19:18

dollar check or something. Yeah, okay. I mean

19:20

I'd still be annoyed but I'd take it.

19:22

From some it'll accept more than five dollars.

19:24

I would take it. Yeah. Not an idiot

19:26

like. To be fair I would take it

19:29

too. Yeah, I'd be annoyed but I would

19:31

take it. Yeah, right. Yeah. But I like

19:33

I'll always remember that because I feel like

19:35

that day. And it's just that I was

19:37

young too, and like I just hadn't really

19:40

thought of that. But that day I feel

19:42

like it just opened my eyes to be

19:44

like, oh my goodness, all the things you

19:46

must have to go through. And like you

19:48

and like disabled people everywhere, you know, and

19:51

working in the work that I've done, how

19:53

many times have I seen people even companies

19:55

that work with people who are disabilities, who

19:57

have like inspiration in the slogan, who like

20:00

I don't know if you want to speak

20:02

to that, but I just the language that

20:04

is. The language is about one, yeah. It's

20:06

tough. It's tough, yeah. I think just, first

20:08

of all, I just want to note that

20:11

like, I appreciate you letting me rant at

20:13

you for days and days and days and

20:15

days. Because I didn't have a lot of

20:17

outlets at that time. And I was still

20:19

learning everything and I was still figuring that

20:22

out. And I always felt safe to just

20:24

like spew things at you. And I never

20:26

felt like that was like going to be

20:28

turned. There's always a fear of like it

20:30

being interpreted in a wrong way of me

20:33

saying that. Oh, you're not grateful for a

20:35

compliment or oh, you know, whatever. And it's

20:37

like, no, like that I needed that safe

20:39

space to like rant and let that out

20:42

and appreciate that you you've always been that

20:44

person that's like able to handle those rants.

20:46

So that's really important. I mean, Jess is

20:48

probably the safest person you could talk to.

20:50

She really is. Yeah, it doesn't make me

20:53

cry. You were always very safe for that.

20:55

Maybe not for me. Yeah, does it make

20:57

you feel better if I say maybe not

20:59

for me? I know I'm safe too. I

21:01

know I'm safe too. I think about those

21:04

days and I just think about like really

21:06

how young you were to like go to

21:08

university beyond your own for the first time

21:10

and then I feel like when we started

21:12

to get to know each other and spend

21:15

so much time together you were like processing

21:17

all the things too for the first time

21:19

right? I think early 20s were like the

21:21

most processing for me. So I feel like

21:23

we were together for a lot of these

21:26

years where you were processing a lot of

21:28

the trauma and a lot of the comments

21:30

that you experienced that you experienced. before moving

21:32

away to university. So I feel like that's

21:35

why also you needed that safe space and

21:37

we had so many of those conversations. It

21:39

was all coming up for you for the

21:41

first time. Or maybe not the first time,

21:43

but like in a deeper way. The first

21:46

time I was away from small town. That's

21:48

an age where you understand adulthood a little

21:50

bit more. You understand that people are, just

21:52

because they're adults, it's mean that they know

21:54

what they're doing. And I think that was

21:57

like really the age for me where I

21:59

started doing a lot of like my own

22:01

therapy and like figuring out life. Like I

22:03

literally remember you going to your first therapy.

22:05

Yeah. Like I think I saw the ones

22:08

that were like, you need to go, like

22:10

we're going to go and do this. Like,

22:12

you were the ones that encouraged me to

22:14

end up going. They didn't want to go.

22:17

Yep. I remember encouraging you, be like, I

22:19

think you should try and go to therapy.

22:21

And like, this was early on in our

22:23

friendship. Second year for me. Yeah. And I

22:25

remember you coming back from therapy with a

22:28

rock. Do you remember that rock? I still

22:30

have the rock? I do. I saw that

22:32

rock. I have a little like plate with

22:34

all my little like plate with all my

22:36

little rocks with all my little rocks with

22:39

all my little rocks with all my little

22:41

rocks from all my little rocks from all

22:43

my little rocks from my little rocks from

22:45

my little rocks from my little rocks from

22:47

my little rocks from I had a therapist

22:50

named a therapist named Sue. I had a

22:52

therapist named Sue. I had a therapist named

22:54

Sue. She was great. Every time I went

22:56

there, she had like a big bowl of

22:59

like rocks with different textures and whatever to

23:01

like rub and ground yourself with and I'd

23:03

always come back with a rock and add

23:05

it to my little pile. Yeah. And I

23:07

just still have that little bowl of rocks.

23:10

Yep. Yeah. I can't let them go. I

23:12

just arrived. Remember coming back from the therapy

23:14

session? Like, look, Jess, I got a rock.

23:16

And we were like, okay, that's a start.

23:18

Yeah. But yeah, those kind of things, I

23:21

don't know, it's just ingrained in your head.

23:23

But it's been really cool to like watch

23:25

you over the years, like go through that

23:27

time when you felt really broken and obviously

23:29

it's not like this journey's ever over, right?

23:32

When you're on a healing journey, it's always.

23:34

But now seeing you like literally supporting kids

23:36

who are going through some of the things

23:38

that you used to go through, like it's

23:41

pretty cool circle. Yeah. Friends,

23:43

we have exciting news. The anger course

23:45

is now available. This course was created

23:47

for parents of kids who would be

23:50

labeled as angry, strong-willed, sensitive, or explosive.

23:52

It's meant for kids ages three to

23:54

nine years old. Inside the course, you're

23:56

gonna. to find 35 video lessons all

23:59

between one and four minutes long, really

24:01

easy to digest, covering everything from your

24:03

triggers, how you view anger, of course

24:05

your childhood experiences, to what anger, and

24:08

why it presents the way it presents

24:10

the way it does, and how even

24:12

sensitivity plays into it, and then you'll

24:14

finish it off with some scenarios and

24:17

really practical tools. The whole thing's only

24:19

an hour and a half long because

24:21

we know you're busy. We can't wait

24:23

to support you. Head to the link

24:26

in the show notes to grab the

24:28

anger course right now. So

24:32

one of the big things that I

24:34

think parents face or that is hard

24:36

for them is using the correct terminology

24:38

or language. So from your experience both

24:41

personally and as a psychotherapist so professionally,

24:43

why do you think so many well-intentioned

24:45

parents freeze up or shy away when

24:47

it comes to talking about disability with

24:50

their kids or with even other kids

24:52

like you when you were little? I'm

24:54

sure there's a myriad reasons. But is

24:56

it largely because there's the fear of

24:59

saying the wrong thing? Or do you

25:01

think there's deeper discomforts that are at

25:03

play when it comes to parents dealing

25:05

with disabilities? I think it's both. I

25:08

think there's a really big fear, and

25:10

because people are often well-intentioned, and I

25:12

think they're scared of saying something that

25:14

is hurtful or offensive or inappropriate. And

25:17

so they think the better choices to

25:19

say nothing. It feels safer for them.

25:21

And I think it also comes from

25:23

a place of not knowing, like not

25:26

understanding. Because often, I think when we

25:28

don't know something, that's when we feel

25:30

most worried about saying something wrong. Because

25:32

we don't have the confidence to say

25:35

that we know the subject or we

25:37

have an understanding of it or we

25:39

have done some of that work. And

25:41

I think a lot of... times parents

25:44

or people in general just if they

25:46

don't have a base understanding or Feel

25:48

comfortable or if they never been in

25:50

the community whatever that might be, they

25:53

are worried about saying the wrong thing.

25:55

Yeah. And will resort to not saying

25:57

it. So I think for me, and

25:59

that's a really hard thing for me

26:02

to constantly kind of remind myself, the

26:04

concept that someone's never encountered disability. I

26:06

can't imagine that. Like it's so foreign

26:08

to me that that is something that

26:11

a lot of people have never actually

26:13

encountered. And that to me is just

26:15

like mind-blowing. And so I think I

26:17

always have to remind myself that like

26:20

there are some people that have had

26:22

zero experience with disability for again, many,

26:24

many, many reasons why that's the case.

26:26

But it becomes this thing that is

26:29

scary for them too. So Jess and

26:31

I were talking just before in preparation

26:33

for this with you. And I was

26:35

like, I don't even know if I

26:38

know the right terminology. And Jess refused

26:40

to tell me the right terminology. Oh,

26:42

this should be fun. So what does

26:44

saying it right actually... mean in this

26:47

context. Like if I, even being friends

26:49

with you, I actually don't know if

26:51

it's supposed to be person-first language, disability-first

26:53

language, I was talking to someone who

26:56

said that they went through like HR

26:58

training or corporate training and they were

27:00

told to say that they went through

27:02

like HR training or corporate training and

27:05

they were told to say that people

27:07

with disabilities were differently abled. I'm like,

27:09

I'm pretty sure I guess that makes

27:11

sense. And I feel like at one

27:14

point... it might have been person first

27:16

language and then maybe it changed to

27:18

disability first. So it's like, it's almost

27:20

like you're trying to keep up to

27:23

date. Or terrified. Yeah, and then you're

27:25

terrified because you're like, I don't want

27:27

to say something that's going to offend

27:29

anyone because I actually have no idea

27:32

what I'm supposed to say. So I

27:34

guess, is it precise terminology in the

27:36

end? really matter that much or is

27:38

it more the intention and the attitude

27:41

that people have towards the conversation and

27:43

like just being open about having a

27:45

conversation about disability? So Language is tricky

27:47

because what we say, even if it's

27:50

intended well, makes a difference. So I

27:52

think when we're using, like for me

27:54

when you just went through that, there's

27:56

like two categories in my brain. So

27:59

there's like either disability first or person

28:01

first language, which to me are pretty

28:03

interchangeable. I personally prefer disability first language.

28:05

It's an identity thing. That's like a

28:08

personal preference. I don't get upset if

28:10

someone says person with disability. To me

28:12

that's like not a huge deal. I

28:14

think where we get into the kind

28:17

of the tricky territory is when we're

28:19

using euphemisms to dissince ourselves. So like

28:21

euphemism of like differently able handy capable

28:23

is a big one, which my partner

28:26

and I make a lot of jokes

28:28

about. Oh yeah, that's yeah, that's another

28:30

one like handicapped for like a handicapable.

28:32

Are you allowed to say handicapped? Like

28:35

I don't even know if you can

28:37

say that or not. I think it's

28:39

when you're distancing yourself from the word

28:41

disability. And I think that is like

28:44

differently able part of the point or

28:46

even special needs, even handicapped, whatever word

28:48

it is that's avoiding the word disability.

28:50

Even if it's met in a good

28:53

way, it's inherently distancing yourself from disability.

28:55

And often that gets interpreted as interpreted

28:57

as If it's so bad you can't

28:59

say, then you're positioning it as something

29:02

bad or something to be avoided. Which

29:04

is not welcoming. Something I would feel

29:06

warm and fuzzy about. I would kind

29:08

of go, oh, like, just say I'm

29:11

disabled. I'm disabled. Like, it's the reality,

29:13

it's the truth, it's the real situation,

29:15

we don't need to sugarcoat it. We

29:17

don't need to hide it, we don't

29:20

need to avoid it. It's just disabled.

29:22

And so when we're using all these

29:24

other little like cute terms, which when

29:26

you said like corporate is teaching this.

29:29

can guarantee you that corporate person's not

29:31

disabled. Yeah, right. Or maybe whatsoever. That's

29:33

what I, that was the first thing

29:35

I said when I heard that. So

29:37

you need to be listening to people,

29:40

and I always just say ask, like

29:42

if you're really unsure, first, that won't

29:44

be offensive to, like, to even ask.

29:46

No, I think it's actually considered personally,

29:49

where I'm like, oh, like, you actually

29:51

know that this can be an icky

29:53

situation for people. And you're going, oh,

29:55

I'm just going to ask. Yeah, because

29:58

like you're mentioning all the different terms.

30:00

There's a million. Yeah, and like the

30:02

thing is in my mind, it's like

30:04

handicapped, disabled. They all, I sort of,

30:07

I get what they mean. So then

30:09

in my mind, it's more like, I

30:11

don't even know which I guess disabled

30:13

is the right term. There's nothing wrong

30:16

with the word stable. Right. And I

30:18

don't think. If, let's say I were

30:20

to say it, not that I necessarily

30:22

would, but if I were to say

30:25

those terms, I would say it with

30:27

the exact same attitude and intention, because

30:29

it's literally just the fact that I

30:31

have no idea that saying that is,

30:34

I don't know, somehow distancing yourself from

30:36

disabled, which in my mind, like the

30:38

way I learned it, just sort of

30:40

interchangeable. See the thing is you're both

30:43

professionals. So then you understand maybe a

30:45

lot more about this, but I'm just

30:47

saying from someone who has no professional

30:49

training in anything related to psychology or

30:52

any of it. Like to me, they

30:54

kind of all have the same meaning,

30:56

so then it's, it would, I can

30:58

imagine other parents will feel the same

31:01

where it's like, I actually mean the

31:03

exact same thing. It's just, I said

31:05

the wrong term. And so I feel

31:07

like there's like two things. So there's

31:10

one thing if you, and correct me

31:12

from wrong. But if your intention is

31:14

good. Right? And you're like, I want

31:16

to say the right thing. And like,

31:19

you're asking the right, you're asking questions,

31:21

right? And now you know, Brooklyn prefers

31:23

disability first language, which like as an

31:25

example, when you write your bio as

31:28

a therapist, you would call yourself like

31:30

a disabled therapist. What do I say?

31:32

Yes. So that's what disability first language

31:34

is. We're putting the disability first, right?

31:37

So now that you know that, you

31:39

wouldn't go ahead and say differently able.

31:41

No, right, of course. Right? And so

31:43

I think that's the main difference. It's

31:46

like some people just, they don't know

31:48

what they don't know, they've been trained

31:50

a different way, that's not really their

31:52

fault. But if they learn it, then

31:55

I think the onus would be on

31:57

them to use the correct language. And

31:59

then I would also say that if

32:01

you're someone who's teaching this, you're someone

32:04

who's teaching this. and make sure that

32:06

the information that you are sharing is

32:08

that. Oh, you're like saying in terms

32:10

of like HR. Yeah, because I think

32:13

a big issue is we have a

32:15

whole bunch of people teaching accessibility trainings

32:17

and companies, like exactly what you were

32:19

saying, who've never actually spoken to a

32:22

disabled person or like got their insights.

32:24

Or have a very limited group of

32:26

people that they've talked to, typically not

32:28

to make assumptions, white men who are

32:31

paraplegic. That is like the like, Okay.

32:33

Can the go to? If you Google

32:35

a disabled person, that's like the like

32:37

framework that people go off of. So

32:40

can I? Just not necessarily that it's

32:42

right, but in defense of like the

32:44

company. In this case, it's a big

32:46

company. So there's less excuse. But let's

32:49

say for our company, we had you

32:51

go over our policy. But if you

32:53

didn't work for us and we didn't

32:55

know you, I feel like we'd just

32:58

be like, okay, and the lawyer sent

33:00

this. This is what we have to

33:02

use. and that's the language that we

33:04

would use. And I think you had

33:07

some things that you said maybe alter

33:09

this and change that, and it made

33:11

more sense. But because we know you

33:13

and you're willing to help us improve

33:16

on it, but I feel like a

33:18

lot of companies, like anyone in this

33:20

building that we work in, they probably

33:22

just work directly with the lawyer. And

33:25

we're like, here's the employee handbook for

33:27

you, and then we're like, okay. It's

33:29

the shifting the narrative of if you're

33:31

going to make that. an accessible format

33:34

for everybody. You need to put in

33:36

the effort to connect with an accessibility

33:38

consulting agency or D.I. whatever that looks

33:40

like, you have to put in that

33:43

effort as a company. And if you

33:45

don't, you could still survive technically, but

33:47

I think you're going to be facing

33:49

a lot of challenges of an accessibility

33:52

or not being as good as you

33:54

could be if you put in that

33:56

effort. That's what I was just saying

33:58

is like I would hold different people

34:01

maybe to different standards. So like for

34:03

a therapist I hold them to a

34:05

high standard. Yeah. Because you're a therapist,

34:07

so in my opinion you should. be

34:10

held to a very high standard. Yeah,

34:12

of course. And you should know the

34:14

most that you can, right? And like

34:16

a company, if you're training a whole

34:19

bunch of people, I would hold you

34:21

to a higher standard, too. Yeah, this

34:23

is a company of like five or

34:25

600 employees, right? Yeah, you shouldn't. Yeah,

34:28

you should do your research and have

34:30

stuff. And it's available. I think that's

34:32

the big thing is that we're living

34:34

in a time where everything is available

34:37

online. It's very accessible. I think I

34:39

even took a training though and I'm

34:41

pretty sure the training that I took,

34:43

I don't know if you would have

34:46

agreed with some of the things that

34:48

they had. So that's the thing, it's

34:50

like this is a professional organization that

34:52

focuses on that and they are maybe

34:55

not even doing it. So that brings

34:57

you back to parents. Could be very

34:59

well-intentioned and it sounds I think a

35:01

little bit scary to even have a

35:04

conversation at all because... like whether it's

35:06

disability or race or gender or like

35:08

all these different things you have to

35:10

you have to you have to know

35:13

all these different things and then it

35:15

is almost it's kind of impossible to

35:17

keep up with that on top of

35:19

just taking care for your kids and

35:21

bringing them to their extracurriculars and making

35:24

sure they do well in school and

35:26

are fed well and doing well at

35:28

work right that's where I feel like

35:30

it's important to have us for us

35:33

to have a conversation about like how

35:35

do you as a parent have a

35:37

meaningful conversation with your children about things

35:39

like disability and not shy away from

35:42

it, even if it's not something you

35:44

understand at all. with parent first. So

35:46

I would say as a person I

35:48

hope that most people in my ideal

35:51

world. Yeah magical ideal world. Yeah. First

35:53

of all our system would be set

35:55

up so that you encounter disability more

35:57

and that these are conversations that you

36:00

have right if you have a parent

36:02

with it or your teacher is disabled

36:04

or someone at a grocery store is

36:06

disabled or daycare workers do like any

36:09

just more people in the community doing

36:11

more things and there's a million reasons

36:13

why that's not set up the way

36:15

it is employment subsidy all kinds of

36:18

things and that's I'm not even into

36:20

that yeah well we've dealt with it

36:22

with you even working for us it's

36:24

like yeah it would be a day's

36:27

conversation yeah it was almost challenging to

36:29

even be able to pay you because

36:31

yeah we did then all of a

36:33

sudden benefits go and losing those and

36:36

it's like They don't really make it

36:38

that easy for you. Yeah, and I'm

36:40

someone in a very privileged point of

36:42

view. Yeah, right. I'm white. I have

36:45

a family that's very supportive. I have

36:47

all these things that are working in

36:49

my favor and it's still incredibly challenging.

36:51

So I'm not even touching that because

36:54

that's just like... That would be a

36:56

whole other conversation for us. Yeah, but

36:58

I think we have to recognize that

37:00

it's there first. Absolutely. about and from

37:03

disabled people, follow accounts, disabled people. Have

37:05

their kids have books and stories and

37:07

all these things that are from a

37:09

disability-firming perspective in their space, but I

37:12

think in order to have those conversations

37:14

with your kids, you need to brush

37:16

up on your own knowledge of that.

37:18

So I think a lot, even for

37:21

example, the one conversation that you guys

37:23

had around periods. You know, you're uncomfortable

37:25

handling the girls when they come to

37:27

that age and all these things. And

37:30

the main reason for that is... you

37:32

don't know. You don't know what you

37:34

don't know. And so the best way

37:36

to feel more competent in talking to

37:39

them about that is by focusing on

37:41

your own education and brushing up on

37:43

what you need to know to be

37:45

able to support them. And I think

37:48

the same applies for disability. We all

37:50

have inherent biases. We all have inherent

37:52

stereotypes and stigmas. And the best way

37:54

to kind of be able to approach

37:57

a conversation with our kids without that

37:59

interfering is to work on that. in

38:01

addition, and then come to the kids

38:03

to be able to offer them a

38:06

similar understanding. So they don't need that

38:08

when they're like 30, right? Because they

38:10

had it all growing up, which I

38:12

wish everyone had, but the reality is

38:15

that that's not what the world is

38:17

set up for right now. I know,

38:19

it's interesting because like even talking about

38:21

training for here and taking the AODA

38:24

training, it's like it doesn't even seem

38:26

like that's like a professional organization that...

38:28

is even supposed to teach it properly.

38:30

They've been through their bare minimum in

38:33

my opinion. Right. It's very low bar.

38:35

Yeah, and that's specifically for their minimum

38:37

that you can legally get through. Right.

38:39

Okay. Half of their stuff doesn't apply

38:42

to me because it's not comprehensive. So

38:44

what they identify is something that is

38:46

accessible is only for a very particular

38:48

group of people, but not everybody. And

38:51

so I think it's more about. complete

38:53

inclusion, all access designs and stuff that

38:55

are, that's what we need to, it

38:57

changes from person to person. What works

39:00

for me might not work for somebody

39:02

else. And that's okay, but we need

39:04

to be able to shift it and

39:06

accommodate it accordingly. And that's not how

39:09

it's set up. It's set up as

39:11

a checklist of if I do all

39:13

of these things, I can say I'm

39:15

accessible. That's not how accessibility works. Yeah,

39:18

right. Doesn't work. Which is a systematic

39:20

issue, right. because again, like as a

39:22

parent trying to teach your kids about

39:24

that, I'm sure there's... So many different

39:27

disabilities I don't even, I'm not even

39:29

aware of exist. It's a huge spectrum

39:31

and it crosses every other identity, right?

39:33

Because you have black disabled people, you

39:36

have queer disabled people, you have poor

39:38

disabled people, and then you have everyone

39:40

else in between. And then every disability

39:42

itself is a spectrum. So even just

39:45

looking at SMA for me, huge range.

39:47

It's complicated. Just to add a piece

39:49

in to just kind of blend all

39:51

of this with everything else that we

39:54

teach at nurtured first. I think it's

39:56

just helpful for parents, just remember this,

39:58

like every person wants to be known

40:00

and seen and heard and understood. And

40:03

I think if you have that always

40:05

in your head and you're approaching any

40:07

conversation, anything you have from that angle,

40:09

right? Like that is why you prefer

40:12

the term disabled therapist, right? Because it's

40:14

like, see my disability. Know it. understand

40:16

that it's there, and then you see

40:18

me. Right? I remember us having those

40:21

conversations. It's like, if you don't see

40:23

my disability, you just call me differently

40:25

able, then we like skip over the

40:27

fact that I'm disabled. You don't see

40:30

me, you don't know me, you don't

40:32

hear me, you don't get me. So

40:34

I think that's like at the really

40:36

root of any of the language things.

40:39

It's like, what if your intention is

40:41

to deeply know and see and understand

40:43

someone and understand someone, I think... Then

40:45

you can ask someone the question, how

40:48

do you prefer I talk to you?

40:50

Or how do you prefer, like do

40:52

you prefer me say disabled this? Or

40:54

do you prefer me say a person

40:57

with disability? Like, yeah. But then the

40:59

person on the receiving end feels known

41:01

and seen. And I think that's all

41:03

really we're looking for, right? Which I

41:05

think we have a post from that

41:08

was years ago. Yeah. But I think

41:10

it was with our momma village because

41:12

I remember calling you on a walk.

41:14

I was going down the street and

41:17

there was a company car. I know

41:19

exactly who you're talking about. Yeah. And

41:21

it had this slogan, see the person

41:23

not the disability. And I called dress

41:26

fuming. Because I was so mad. Because

41:28

it was like, you don't see the

41:30

person if you don't see the disability.

41:32

My disability is impacted every single part

41:35

of my life. And if you pretend

41:37

it's not there, you don't even know

41:39

who I am. Right. Like it's so,

41:41

but it's meant. That's a positive thing.

41:44

That's like the same as saying I

41:46

don't see color. Yeah. It's the same

41:48

thing. I don't see color. It's like

41:50

you obviously do. So why? And this

41:53

is an agency that supports disabled adults,

41:55

right? Yes. Yeah. So they have that

41:57

on the side of their band. And

41:59

Brooklyn. Brooklyn and Brooklyn and I are

42:02

just like. I just get really ramped

42:04

up. Yeah. About it, because I've heard

42:06

that so many times this phrase is

42:08

a compliment. It's just, it's not compliment

42:11

people think it is. And I just

42:13

think like if we can pass that

42:15

mess, like it's a simple message to

42:17

pass along to parents, right? But like

42:20

help your kids see disability. Help them

42:22

be curious about it. Let them know

42:24

what it exists. Yeah. Expose them to

42:26

it in magazine. Or magazines. Or magazines.

42:29

That dates me. Books and videos and

42:31

specifically seek out books written by disabled

42:33

authors. You're on Instagram, follow disabled people

42:35

on Instagram, right? Yeah. And if you

42:38

have questions, look it up together. Yeah.

42:40

I don't see anything wrong if they're

42:42

like, oh, what is this cane? Why

42:44

do they use this particular cane? Be

42:47

like, you know what? It's a great

42:49

question. Let's look it up. Let's take

42:51

a look. Let's going on. We look

42:53

it up online. Find a couple people

42:56

talking about it. You can learn with

42:58

your kids. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah, and

43:00

I think if you have the posture

43:02

of, like, we just want to understand,

43:05

we want to be curious, and we

43:07

want to help the people in our

43:09

life who are disabled, feel seen and

43:11

known, I think that's all we're really

43:14

asking, and again, you can... tell me

43:16

I'm wrong here, but if we have

43:18

that posture of curiosity, I think that's

43:20

what you missed in your childhood, right?

43:23

People weren't asking you. They're having conversations

43:25

above you and on the other side

43:27

of a door where you could hear,

43:29

right? Like no one was seeing you

43:32

and I feel like that's why that

43:34

language is so triggering. Absolutely. So for

43:36

the parents listening right now, what is

43:38

the... what you would say the absolute

43:41

first simplest step a parent listening can

43:43

take to open the door to conversation

43:45

with their kids about this, even if

43:47

they feel completely unqualified to have the

43:50

discussion. Qualified? It's what I want to

43:52

say. I know it's not tangible for

43:54

everybody, but small steps even over there.

43:56

Follow on account, read a book, podcast,

43:59

whatever you want to do. But I

44:01

think having kids be exposed would be

44:03

my next. Yeah, don't like keep them

44:05

away from. No, have books with multiple

44:08

kids in it. Some ill-bodied, some disabled,

44:10

different sexualities, different races, like just diverse

44:12

characters, stories, TV shows, same thing, have

44:14

these conversations from that, like, use that

44:17

as a spark to have those conversations.

44:19

I think if kids are exposed to

44:21

it, they understand it. It's not this

44:23

elephant in the room that they have

44:26

never seen. a wheelchair before, you know,

44:28

show them different kinds of wheelchair, like

44:30

show them different, give opportunities for them

44:32

to see these things. I think that

44:35

would be my first tangible tool to

44:37

starting those conversations while simultaneously doing your

44:39

own work. And I know that's something

44:41

that isn't easy to do, but I

44:44

think that's the real answer. Right. Which

44:46

is that you kind of have to

44:48

do your own work to be able

44:50

to have those conversations. Yeah. If you

44:53

want them to be effective. It kind

44:55

of comes from that. Right. And when

44:57

you say your own work, can you

44:59

give an example of what that would

45:02

look like? Yeah, I would turn inward

45:04

about what you know about disability, stories

45:06

that you've heard, what your understanding is,

45:08

where your biases might be, and then

45:11

I would focus on hearing from disabled

45:13

people of all kinds, like listening, following

45:15

stories. whatever it is just to get

45:17

that exposure so you can actually explore

45:20

those things and then listen to them

45:22

if they say this is wrong, be

45:24

like, okay, like for that particular person,

45:26

this is wrong. What might that mean

45:29

for other people? And how could I

45:31

make sure that they feel supported? And

45:33

the more you hear from people, I

45:35

think the more you understand it. And

45:38

that just comes from exposure. But we,

45:40

our society is very limited exposure. And

45:42

it's getting better, but like for a

45:44

lot of people, they've never encountered anyone

45:47

with a disability. And so you have

45:49

to seek it out, unfortunately. Well it's

45:51

almost like I think about being on

45:53

social media you're just like inundated with

45:56

so much information too about all everything.

45:58

So it's an extra it's an additional

46:00

challenge to absolutely again see content from

46:02

disabled people and at the same time

46:05

learn about everything else and like we

46:07

have an election in Canada and making

46:09

sure you educated on that. But there

46:11

are some really great politicians that are

46:14

disabled. Here what they have to say.

46:16

I didn't even know that. They're there.

46:18

We're there. We're there and we're not

46:20

necessarily on the front page. Right. But

46:23

we're there. And I think you just

46:25

have to put in that little bit

46:27

of extra searching to to find them

46:29

in here from them. So we were

46:32

talking about it not being the elephant

46:34

in the room. Yeah. To be honest

46:36

I feel like kids are often more

46:38

blunt though and like we'll just state

46:41

which are my favorite thing in the

46:43

world. I love that. Our girls will

46:45

immediately say Brooklyn you're in a chair.

46:47

I'm like they will just state what

46:49

is obvious to everyone to everyone right.

46:52

they're not blind to it. So how

46:54

can parents handle these moments with their

46:56

kids? Because they feel like some parents

46:58

again will feel kind of awkward about

47:01

it. Like it doesn't bother, I don't

47:03

wouldn't say it bothers us, because that's

47:05

just how kids are. They notice literally

47:07

everything. Are you talking about like public?

47:10

Yeah, just being out in public and

47:12

like seeing maybe someone with like the,

47:14

what is it, the, not the crutch,

47:16

I guess crutches, with cerebral palsy, like,

47:19

because we've seen that before. How do

47:21

you have a constructive conversation with your

47:23

child when they maybe call something out?

47:25

If I'm in public, let's say with

47:28

my... kid and then they see you

47:30

in a chair the kid and then

47:32

they go mommy why is that person

47:34

in a chair and they're like pointing

47:37

it obviously you hear I'm sure this

47:39

happens to you all the time well

47:41

how do you hope a parent is

47:43

going to respond in that scenario do

47:46

you want them to be like let's

47:48

ask or do you want them to

47:50

say we'll talk about it later or

47:52

so I hate the shishing I don't

47:55

like what parents shit children yeah totally

47:57

I don't think that's productive They're curious.

47:59

Don't shut down their curiosity. Right, because

48:01

they're supposed to be curious. Yeah. That's

48:04

what they need. Personally, I love kids.

48:06

So it's my favorite thing in the

48:08

world when kids come up to me

48:10

and put like and ask me questions.

48:13

Because they're absurd questions. Yeah. First of

48:15

all, like they're hilarious. How do you

48:17

get in bed? Oh, yeah. You sleep

48:19

in that chair? That's a great question.

48:22

And I'm like, you know what? I

48:24

haven't heard that one, I haven't heard

48:26

that one yet. what's going on, like

48:28

what's wrong with you, which is a

48:31

really endearing one, because they're just, they're

48:33

so sweet. Right? They're just like, what's

48:35

wrong with you? Why are you in

48:37

there? But sometimes they're just really funny

48:40

questions. And I think for me, I

48:42

personally, because I like kids and talking

48:44

about disability, something I'm really passionate about,

48:46

I'm okay with them asking questions. I

48:49

will sit there and answer all other

48:51

questions in the world, even if it's

48:53

such a good. I think when a

48:55

parent is in that situation, they're often

48:58

embarrassed by what's going on and they

49:00

want to shut it down as possible

49:02

as possible. Yeah. Because it's uncomfortable. So

49:04

they will either shh shh shh, shh,

49:07

and like take their kids. I don't

49:09

know. We don't, we don't do that.

49:11

We don't point. We don't ask questions

49:13

like we, it's like shutting down that

49:16

curiosity. I don't think that's super helpful

49:18

for the kid. And also for me

49:20

too, I'm just like, okay. Like, I'm

49:22

happy to talk to them, like, like,

49:25

like, like, like, like, is it so

49:27

tabby that I'm tabby to talk to

49:29

you? Like, is this kind of an

49:31

internal issue there? And I always think

49:34

it's... like sometimes parents respond as if

49:36

like you don't realize that you're in

49:38

a wheelchair yeah don't reminder you know

49:40

what I mean yeah that's what it

49:43

feels like yeah fair and so I

49:45

would say avoid shutting it down because

49:47

need to be curious yeah I would

49:49

also say and this is going to

49:52

be a ramble so join me I

49:54

encourage questions I need to preface that

49:56

not everybody who's disabled wants to answer

49:58

questions nor is it their job Yeah.

50:01

To answer questions. So you're kind of

50:03

teetering a line of like, maybe you

50:05

could ask, see if, do you want

50:07

to ask if they can answer questions?

50:10

Oh, like just maybe you answer the

50:12

question for them. If they're like, what

50:14

is that? You can say, that's a

50:16

wheelchair. And just kind of answer their

50:19

own question for them. But I think

50:21

the issue that most people have is

50:23

they're like, well, we want the person

50:25

to answer the question. because they come

50:28

from this intent of like, well, you

50:30

should, you're the person with the loved

50:32

experience, you should be able to tell

50:34

me and tell the child what's going

50:37

on, not me. But then it's like

50:39

if someone's running late, or busy, you

50:41

know, they're just out doing their life.

50:43

Yeah, they're not on. It's not their

50:46

job. Yeah, no, totally. So I think

50:48

coming from a place of asking, like,

50:50

see if they're willing to answer your

50:52

answer your questions for you. to some

50:55

degree. Yeah, and like I like what

50:57

you said too about sometimes for kids,

50:59

it's just a factual answer. Quick answer.

51:01

Like instead of shushing, just be like

51:04

if they say what is that? Yeah,

51:06

it's a wheelchair. Most kids are okay

51:08

with that. And that's it. And that's

51:10

it. And that's it. That's it. That's

51:13

it. That's all it goes. Like your

51:15

child is going to do so much

51:17

better if you just factually just say,

51:19

yeah, she's in a wheelchair. And then

51:22

off you go. But if you shush

51:24

it, now all of a sudden you've

51:26

made it this thing, right? Like now

51:28

I can't say it. Now, oh, there's

51:31

something there. And this is where our

51:33

biases and stigmas kind of form. from.

51:35

And for me I always in those

51:37

situations because I know how hard it

51:40

is for parents I myself will often

51:42

interject and just be like hi like

51:44

I'll wave at the kid and if

51:46

they like engaged it be like do

51:49

you have any questions like have you

51:51

seen this do you like the chair

51:53

like whatever it is and that kind

51:55

of I can see you sometimes parents

51:58

just go oh thank God. Like they

52:00

have this immediate like oh relax now

52:02

like we don't have to worry about

52:04

it. Not everybody wants to do that

52:07

or has to. Yeah, that's your choice

52:09

to do that. But I would say

52:11

definitely not everybody feels the same way

52:13

and that's okay too. You can kind

52:16

of engage in it. Totally. You can

52:18

read read them, see if they're going

52:20

to engage. Yeah. You can usually gauge

52:22

if they are interested in having that

52:25

conversation or not. Yeah. I think that

52:27

makes sense. Mm-hmm. Looking back at your

52:29

own childhood and journey. One conversation about

52:31

disability, you wish an adult had started

52:34

with you or handled differently. I'm sure

52:36

there's a bunch, but... Oh my gosh,

52:38

that's a hard one. It's weird, I

52:40

don't remember a lot of conversations about

52:42

disabilities, which I think is interesting, because

52:45

you would assume that those would be

52:47

like the hotspot in my memory? your

52:49

life though so it's just kind of

52:51

a any conversation morphs together like it

52:54

just was a repetitive conversation it wasn't

52:56

like a one-time sit down it was

52:58

very gradual my parents I think did

53:00

a really good job navigating that I

53:03

do remember when I was probably seven

53:05

or eight when religion entered the picture

53:07

and I remember having a conversation with

53:09

my parents of like I think I

53:12

was upset at my room and I

53:14

was just like I don't understand, like,

53:16

if God's supposed to be helping everyone,

53:18

like, why is this so unfair? And

53:21

my parents, I love that they were

53:23

dishonest and they're like, we don't know.

53:25

Like we do not know. We have

53:27

no answer for you, but we're here.

53:30

We'll help with whatever we need, but

53:32

they were never in like a fix

53:34

it mode. Yeah. Which I think was

53:36

really something I needed as a kid.

53:39

And I think a lot of people

53:41

don't get that, which is unfortunate, because

53:43

I think that's like the power, which

53:45

is something you talk about constantly on

53:48

nurtured first, just being that a leader

53:50

and being the person that your kids

53:52

come to, you might not be able

53:54

to fix the problem or the situation

53:57

or the situation or the feelings. but

53:59

you can be with them throughout it.

54:01

Yeah, that's safe presence for them. Yep.

54:03

Remember the first time even meeting your

54:06

mom? She's just like in the room,

54:08

right? Like she's your your safety net,

54:10

right? She did a lot. And I

54:12

don't think I really understand until even

54:15

now fully how much effort she put

54:17

in, especially with like the school board

54:19

and the medical stuff like the amount

54:21

of advocacy that she had to do

54:24

that I saw and then all the

54:26

stuff I didn't see. Really hard for

54:28

me to like really understand how much

54:30

that hired her out and just how

54:33

much energy that caused her. Yeah, it's

54:35

probably just now that you're like the

54:37

age that she would have been, right?

54:39

When she was having you and everything.

54:42

It's like, you start to see things

54:44

from a different lens, the older you

54:46

get. Yeah, for sure. Which makes sense.

54:48

Yeah. It's been an interesting understanding. Because

54:51

I don't think I understood. Because you're

54:53

experiencing it as a kid. And I

54:55

know you had this conversation a lot,

54:57

Scott, with like your own childhood and

55:00

then seeing the girls at certain ages

55:02

and going, wait, this happened to me

55:04

when I was their age. And it's

55:06

a weird conceptualization because when you're a

55:09

kid, you just experienced it. But now

55:11

as an adult, I'm like, oh, you

55:13

know, I was six when this happened

55:15

or oh, I was eight when this

55:18

happened. And I understand how hard that

55:20

must have been. and I can understand

55:22

that differently than when I was in

55:24

it. Because when I was in it,

55:27

I was just... through it. It didn't.

55:29

Right. And your brain was probably not

55:31

able to, wasn't developed enough to comprehend

55:33

everything that was happening at that point

55:36

either, but now it's not. And that's

55:38

the thing about like childhood, right? Like

55:40

it stays with us, like even though

55:42

we are not identifying, this is wounding

55:45

me, this is hurting me, I'm losing,

55:47

you know, the joy that I used

55:49

to have or whatever, you know, identify

55:51

that in the moment, but your body

55:54

does. And it's not to later that

55:56

you can look back and say, oh,

55:58

okay. So that's why that was so

56:00

hard for me. That's why I'm still

56:03

struggling with this. Especially when you like,

56:05

like, oh, okay. Yeah, it does make

56:07

it more real for sure. It gives

56:09

it like a bit of more conceptualizing.

56:12

Yeah, there's additional context that all of

56:14

a sudden builds in your mind about

56:16

your own life. Yeah. And I feel

56:18

like my 20s was like surviving. Yeah.

56:21

And like kind of healing, like... And

56:23

now I feel like in my 30s,

56:25

all of my therapy has been like

56:27

going back to childhood and figuring that

56:30

out more in depth, not just like

56:32

surface level surviving, but like digging into

56:34

the nitty gritties. Yeah, I think that

56:36

makes sense. I mean, in your 20s,

56:39

you're finally like, you're on your own,

56:41

right? You're all of a sudden trying

56:43

to become an adult after you were

56:45

just... You were literally just a kid.

56:48

And now you're... So logistical. It is.

56:50

It really is. And once you're in

56:52

your 30s, you've had, like, let's say,

56:54

roughly a decade of experience of being

56:57

an adult on your own, doing your

56:59

own stuff, and then it gives you

57:01

that time to start reflecting on. That

57:03

was the hardest part of my, like

57:06

hitting the 30s for me too, was

57:08

like I thought I had done a

57:10

lot of deeper work. Yeah, me too.

57:12

And I was like, yeah, I got

57:15

it. Like I feel like I figured

57:17

a lot of this stuff out. Then

57:19

it was just like, nope. You still

57:21

have got lots to figure out. Just

57:24

kidding. If parents listening could change just

57:26

one thing, to start with one thing,

57:28

about how they approach discussing disability with

57:30

their kids, what would you want that

57:33

one initial change to be? I don't

57:35

even know how to phrase that, but

57:37

try to keep disability. neutral, it's not

57:39

good or bad, it just is. And

57:42

I think that's something that is hard

57:44

to do, but I think just keeping

57:46

it very factual and very simple with

57:48

your kids. It doesn't need to be

57:51

a complex thing, it doesn't need to

57:53

be a big, big ordeal, it can

57:55

just be very simple. And you can

57:57

just point things out without having like

58:00

a certain spin on it. I think

58:02

just keeping things factual would be helpful.

58:04

So like. Wheelchairs are for this. Some

58:06

people can't see, whatever it is. Some

58:09

people use a cook-clear implant, like whatever

58:11

that conversation is. Just naming is like

58:13

no different than like this person wears

58:15

glasses. Like it's a tool. It's fine.

58:18

It doesn't have to be a big

58:20

conversation or doesn't have to say, oh,

58:22

like they must struggle to like this.

58:24

Don't overcomplicate it. To be honest, all

58:26

of that to me, sounds very condescending

58:29

if you add anything more than just

58:31

the factual information. They just, this is

58:33

the situation, this is the way it

58:35

is, and if they ask as they

58:38

get older, you know, when there's more

58:40

environmental, I would focus more on the

58:42

environment. Of like, yeah, like, yeah, there's

58:44

a step there, wouldn't that be nice

58:47

if it was a ramp? Should they

58:49

should totally make more ramps? Like, oh,

58:51

this store doesn't have a button. Hmm.

58:53

That might be tricky for someone. And

58:56

I think that's the entrance to our,

58:58

even our building here. Yeah, it's an

59:00

option, right? Like it happens a lot.

59:02

And I think for you, even I've

59:05

had tons of conversations with you around

59:07

how you see that and more and

59:09

more with strollers. Yeah. Because all of

59:11

a sudden you have to go in

59:14

places, you have to go over like

59:16

bumpy train. There's no ramp. No ramp.

59:18

and you're trying to navigate, I remember

59:20

calling you one day, I was like

59:23

in a store, like a dollar store

59:25

or something like that. I had a

59:27

kid walking and then I had the

59:29

stroller and no button to get into

59:32

the store, get into the store, the

59:34

aisles are so thin, like so narrow

59:36

that I could barely push the stroller

59:38

through. Then there was stuff all in

59:41

the way and like I'm like stuck

59:43

in there, I can't get through at

59:45

the stroller and I called you and

59:47

I'm like, I'm so mad for you

59:50

right for you right now. Like this

59:52

is just me with the stroller and

59:54

I can just turn around and go

59:56

the other way, right? But this is

59:59

the kind of stuff that you're feeling

1:00:01

like every day. All the time. Yeah.

1:00:03

All the time. Should, uh, what are

1:00:05

those things that were on, used to

1:00:08

be on the front of trains? You

1:00:10

should just install one of those. Wasn't

1:00:12

you aware? Well, this is got installing

1:00:14

something again. A plow. Yeah. It was

1:00:17

just, but those are the situations where

1:00:19

it's like. That's why universal design and

1:00:21

accessible design works for everybody. And so

1:00:23

it makes no sense in my brain

1:00:26

why you build stairs right next to

1:00:28

a ramp when you just make a

1:00:30

whole ramp. Right. Like there's no reason

1:00:32

for it to be extra. Just make

1:00:35

it universal design where everyone can get

1:00:37

in and it's fine. Even logically it

1:00:39

doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. And that's probably

1:00:41

because the designers are not. They're not

1:00:44

thinking. Yeah. Just make a ramp, be

1:00:46

done, everyone can get in. Like this

1:00:48

seems easy in my brain. And so

1:00:50

like even pointing that out with your

1:00:53

older kids, like if they see situations,

1:00:55

even if you have a stroller, it's

1:00:57

like, oh wow, this is so hard

1:00:59

to get in. Hmm, like this must

1:01:02

be tricky for other moms or people

1:01:04

using chairs or people using walkers. Like.

1:01:06

Yeah, right. I always bring that stuff

1:01:08

up to the kids and they start

1:01:11

to notice it down into the parking

1:01:13

lot. Oh, there's only one ramp from

1:01:15

the sidewalk to get down into the

1:01:17

parking lot and it's on the other

1:01:20

side of the parking lot. So now

1:01:22

I have to walk all the way

1:01:24

over there in order to get down.

1:01:26

And all the way back through a

1:01:29

parking lot with traffic. Yeah. And like

1:01:31

so. Some places like Montreal have like

1:01:33

no decent sidewalks to even. Yeah. We

1:01:35

did Montreal two years ago. I remember.

1:01:38

Worst city. I've ever been in it.

1:01:40

Yeah. First accessibility. The curbs are not

1:01:42

curbs. They're like a foot. a foot

1:01:44

high and I'm like how is anyone

1:01:47

supposed to get off this. There was

1:01:49

so much navigation and like huge potholes

1:01:51

and it was just really not built

1:01:53

well for anyone with any kind of

1:01:56

device. Yeah, and I think parents, like,

1:01:58

or anyone, doesn't just have to be

1:02:00

a parent. We can start to notice

1:02:02

these things, right? Just start to even

1:02:05

notice. Like, you're on a walk. Try

1:02:07

to imagine what it would be like

1:02:09

to always have to look for the

1:02:11

ramp down. And to always have to

1:02:14

look for a sidewalk. And so wonder,

1:02:16

why is the sidewalk so bumpy and

1:02:18

why? Yeah, what are these bumps on

1:02:20

the bumps? describe why that might be

1:02:23

there. You can hear the little ding

1:02:25

when you press the button and it

1:02:27

says to go. I don't. That's for

1:02:29

someone who's blind. What's the reason for

1:02:32

those yellow bumps? Blind. It's a tactile

1:02:34

way of them knowing that's the edge.

1:02:36

to not go in farther. I did

1:02:38

not know that. And then if you

1:02:41

press the button across the street, you

1:02:43

might hear the ding, ding, ding, ding.

1:02:45

Yes. Or whatever, that's like to let

1:02:47

them know that they're safe to go

1:02:50

forward. And like there's all of these

1:02:52

little things. Because I know if you

1:02:54

hold them long enough, then it will

1:02:56

do the, it's almost like echo location

1:02:59

where just kind of things back and

1:03:01

forth. And so parents like, even if

1:03:03

you feel like you're not being exposed

1:03:05

to disability in your day to disability

1:03:08

in your day to disability in your

1:03:10

day to day to day, you are,

1:03:12

you are, you are. It's everywhere. So

1:03:14

it's just taking that time to really

1:03:17

just notice it. Like even just go

1:03:19

for a walk. And you'll start to

1:03:21

notice these things. Other things that are

1:03:23

barriers or things that are there to

1:03:26

make things more accessible. And even that,

1:03:28

that's all conversation starters that you can

1:03:30

have. Well, I learned something new today

1:03:32

about those bumps on the sidewalk at

1:03:35

the crosswalk. Yeah, for a blind focus,

1:03:37

yeah. And they use Echolocation. Yeah, right.

1:03:39

So that's exactly what it's for. Yeah.

1:03:41

What is the biggest misconception about disability

1:03:44

that you believe fuels parental anxiety around

1:03:46

these conversations? Also we're gonna be mad

1:03:48

if you ask the wrong question. Yeah.

1:03:50

Or that we're unhappy and miserable. Because

1:03:53

we ask conversation or just in general?

1:03:55

Just in general. Yeah. I think there's

1:03:57

a huge misconception that disabled people are

1:03:59

grumpy and mean and miserable because their

1:04:02

lives are terrible. and they're horrible. If

1:04:04

they're going to be maybe it's just

1:04:06

because they're being condescended to. Yeah, and

1:04:08

that the world isn't built for them.

1:04:10

Yeah. And they kind of have a

1:04:13

right to be upset about it and

1:04:15

that's not them being ungrateful for any

1:04:17

tiny little morsel of accessibility. Right. That

1:04:19

they shouldn't, you know, it's hard. Yeah,

1:04:22

you don't want to be miserable, but

1:04:24

also like the world's really hard and

1:04:26

the world's not built for you. And

1:04:28

so how do you get through and

1:04:31

not be frustrated and not be frustrated.

1:04:33

it's going to be there. And now

1:04:35

I already has the tools or the

1:04:37

access to understanding how to do, like

1:04:40

how to handle those emotions. It's not

1:04:42

easy. That would be one of my

1:04:44

biggest ones. Yeah, I think that's fair.

1:04:46

Okay, makes sense. Finally, what is the

1:04:49

most important thing that we haven't asked

1:04:51

you about? So if there's something else,

1:04:53

what is something that we've been missing

1:04:55

in this conversation that we haven't asked

1:04:58

about? I would say, so I think

1:05:00

in terms of disability, the majority of

1:05:02

the conversation in surrounding had to talk

1:05:04

to able-bodied kids about disability. There are

1:05:07

disabled kids that need conversations about disability,

1:05:09

and there are disabled parents, many conversations

1:05:11

about disability, that don't exist. There's not

1:05:13

a lot of support or understanding of

1:05:16

how to help disabled parents and disabled

1:05:18

kids. It's often focused on a... non-disabled

1:05:20

lens of how to approach conversation. And

1:05:22

I think there needs to be more

1:05:25

conversation around the actual experience for kids

1:05:27

and parents in general, right? Like we're

1:05:29

talking about accessibility and stuff. What about

1:05:31

an accessible playground where a parent can't

1:05:34

take their kid? Because the parents disabled.

1:05:36

What does that look like? You know,

1:05:38

there's a lot of different perspectives and

1:05:40

I think they're all important perspectives, but

1:05:43

I think just making that. a conversation

1:05:45

as well, just to note for people

1:05:47

that there's also a lot of kids

1:05:49

that need these conversations just as much,

1:05:52

and a lot of parents also. need

1:05:54

these conversations in the same way. Absolutely.

1:05:56

Yeah and even yeah our conversation today

1:05:58

right we focus on one piece of

1:06:01

it. We didn't get to those other

1:06:03

pieces right? There's no way there's so

1:06:05

many pieces we could get to yeah

1:06:07

right like we there's a few things

1:06:10

we're like oh that's a whole other

1:06:12

count that's a whole other conversation and

1:06:14

this is another one that's and we

1:06:16

should have you back and we should

1:06:19

be talking about that too but if

1:06:21

there is a disabled parent listening or

1:06:23

a parent of a disabled child listening?

1:06:25

Is there any message or I think

1:06:28

some of the things that we've covered

1:06:30

today are really applicable but is there any

1:06:32

message that you would want to send to

1:06:34

them? Just as there's a lot of other

1:06:37

people dealing with the same struggle that

1:06:39

they're not alone because I think it's

1:06:41

a very isolating experience and I say

1:06:43

that from a point of view where

1:06:45

I grew up with no other people

1:06:47

disabilities really until my late teens actually

1:06:50

have a lot of interaction and that's

1:06:52

only when I started

1:06:54

really. developing an identity,

1:06:57

developing a self-understanding of

1:06:59

my experience and figuring out

1:07:01

how that integrated. I would

1:07:03

say prior to that, it was a

1:07:06

very like exceptional circumstance of like

1:07:08

it was this thing that was

1:07:10

here, but it wasn't like an

1:07:12

integral part of who I was

1:07:14

at that age. I feel like

1:07:16

that started once I started understanding

1:07:19

other people having community learning

1:07:21

more about literature and disability justice

1:07:23

and all kinds of things. That's

1:07:26

when I really started to like

1:07:28

flourish. And I think people need

1:07:30

that. They need that community and they

1:07:32

need that understanding. Yeah, that makes

1:07:35

sense. And I think for parents too,

1:07:37

who have disabilities or for parents of

1:07:39

disabled kids, there are great communities out

1:07:41

there. Like I've seen that for you,

1:07:43

like as you've gotten more connected to

1:07:45

your communities, like it's really cool to

1:07:48

see. and that sense like of everything

1:07:50

we talk about belonging being seen community

1:07:52

and so that's something that practically they

1:07:54

could do too is like to seek

1:07:56

that out. Absolutely and I think that's

1:07:58

something that's a beautiful part of

1:08:00

the internet. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, there's

1:08:03

good and bad, but there is

1:08:05

good. Yeah. We look, even my

1:08:07

mom, 30 years ago, my parents,

1:08:09

when they got diagnosed, they

1:08:11

were handed a pamphlet. Here

1:08:13

you go. There's a pamphlet.

1:08:16

There's a pamphlet of one

1:08:18

contact of who you could

1:08:20

possibly talk to. And good

1:08:22

luck. Whereas now, there's groups.

1:08:24

There's community support, there's zoom,

1:08:26

there's conferences, there's all of

1:08:29

these things where you can

1:08:31

connect with people with similar

1:08:33

lived experience that like, even now I

1:08:35

talk to my parents, like, they will

1:08:37

wish they had access to that. They

1:08:39

wish that they were able to see

1:08:41

this whole other like possible future, which

1:08:43

was not presented to them at the

1:08:46

time. It didn't exist. It was like

1:08:48

phone calls with someone. four hours away

1:08:50

with kids that did for ages and

1:08:52

different stages and all these things like

1:08:54

it wasn't as helpful like my parents

1:08:56

felt like they had to go through a lot of

1:08:59

it themselves and I feel like that's

1:09:01

not thankfully that's not the

1:09:03

reality as much anymore because there's

1:09:05

so much connection online I think that's

1:09:07

been a really beautiful benefit of

1:09:09

the internet most of my friends

1:09:11

are states and Canada wide like

1:09:13

they're all over but you can talk to

1:09:15

them any minute of any day. And you

1:09:17

can say, like, hey, you're going through

1:09:20

this too? Like, yeah. Like, even last

1:09:22

week, the wheelchair broke. I had so

1:09:24

many people messaging me, like, hey, like,

1:09:26

I saw, like, this is happening, like,

1:09:28

oh my God, mine did this last

1:09:30

week. Like, it's just, like, a

1:09:33

lot more comforting, connecting. There's, like,

1:09:35

solidarity in the community that just

1:09:37

doesn't never exist in when I was

1:09:40

younger. I feel like you must be able,

1:09:42

it, it must be easier, it must be

1:09:44

easier than to, it must be easier than

1:09:46

to, Well, not as much. There's a

1:09:48

lot more avenues to protest and

1:09:51

to get creative about things. I

1:09:53

think disabled people are probably one

1:09:55

of the most creative groups of

1:09:57

people I've ever met. And there's

1:09:59

good. reason for that. They've had

1:10:02

to solve a lot of problems

1:10:04

with limited or certain resources that

1:10:06

are not technically traditional and they

1:10:09

have to figure out how to make that

1:10:11

work. And so I think that comes

1:10:13

from an advocacy point of view as

1:10:15

well. Where you can get creative and

1:10:18

figure out other ways of getting stuff

1:10:20

done, which is great. Yeah, definitely a

1:10:22

powerful part of the internet. Yeah. Yeah.

1:10:24

So there is good. There is good.

1:10:26

I know it's a scary place otherwise.

1:10:28

Nice. Well, thanks, Brooke. Yeah, thanks for

1:10:30

being on us. I'm so glad you

1:10:33

came today. Happy to be here. And

1:10:35

you could talk about it forever, right?

1:10:37

So, yeah. That's true, we have. And

1:10:39

we'll have you back, and we'll talk

1:10:41

about one of the other pieces we

1:10:43

didn't get to today. But, yeah, for

1:10:45

sure. Thank you. Hey friends, thank you

1:10:47

so much for listening to today's

1:10:49

episode. We are glad that you

1:10:51

were here. If you enjoyed today's

1:10:53

episode and found it interesting, we'd

1:10:55

really appreciate it if you'd leave

1:10:58

a rating and a review. Scott

1:11:00

and I actually sit down together

1:11:02

and read them all. A five-star

1:11:04

rating helps us share our podcast

1:11:06

and get these important messages out

1:11:08

there. Thank you so much for

1:11:10

listening and we can't wait to talk to

1:11:12

you again next time.