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your day. Okay, let's head to

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the show now. Jess and Scott.

1:57

I hope you enjoyed the episode.

1:59

Today on the show we have

2:02

Dr. Gordon Neufeld and I can't

2:04

wait for this conversation. Dr. Neufeld

2:06

is a Vancouver-based developmental psychologist with

2:08

over 50 years of experience with

2:10

children and youth and those responsible

2:12

for them. A foremost authority on

2:14

child development, Dr. Neufeld is an

2:16

international speaker, a best-selling author of

2:19

Hold On to Your Kids, and

2:21

a leading interpreter of the developmental

2:23

paradigm. Dr. Neufeld has a widespread

2:25

reputation for making sense of complex

2:27

problems and opening doors for change.

2:29

While formerly involved in university teaching

2:31

and private practice, now Dr. Neufeld

2:33

spends his time devoted to teaching

2:35

and training others, including educators and

2:38

helping professionals. His Neufeld Institute is

2:40

now a worldwide charitable organization devoted

2:42

to applying developmental science to the

2:44

task of raising children. He's a

2:46

father, a five, and a grandfather

2:48

to seven. Welcome, Dr. Neufeld. I

2:50

am so excited to have you

2:52

on today. pleasure indeed Jessica good

2:54

to meet you yeah nice to

2:57

meet you too but before we

2:59

get started I won't go off

3:01

too long and make you feel

3:03

uncomfortable but I do want to

3:05

mention how much of an impact

3:07

your work has had on my

3:09

life I'm a registered psychotherapist and

3:11

I work here in Ontario and

3:13

I have my own private practice

3:16

now but before I got into

3:18

psychotherapy working specifically with families and

3:20

kids I actually was in the

3:22

world of applied behavior analysis and

3:24

I was working with autistic children.

3:26

And there was something about the

3:28

work that I was doing that

3:30

just wasn't feeling right to me

3:33

at the time. Very early on

3:35

in my career, I had a

3:37

little boy who I was working

3:39

with and my supervisor at the

3:41

time was really insistent on avoiding

3:43

eye contact with him if he

3:45

wasn't listening or if he was

3:47

being, you know, as we call

3:49

non-compliant. Yeah, the poor child. Yes.

3:52

And I worked with him after

3:54

school. He had had just long,

3:56

long days and there was often

3:58

meltdowns and there was just something

4:00

inside of me. that was like,

4:02

this isn't right, there's got to

4:04

be a different approach. And that's

4:06

when I found your approach, and

4:08

that's when I found the Newfeld

4:11

Institute. And finding your approach, it

4:13

was like... what my heart knew

4:15

was right, but I needed the

4:17

science to back it up so

4:19

that I could switch the way

4:21

I approach children. And the impact

4:23

your approach has had on myself

4:25

and now my team and now

4:27

anyone who listens to the podcast

4:30

has just been huge. So I

4:32

just have to say thank you

4:34

so much. Well, thank you for

4:36

sharing that. That's always music to

4:38

my years, of course. But I

4:40

actually had a very parallel kind

4:42

of experience. When I started my

4:44

career some 53 years ago now,

4:46

I was too working with very,

4:49

very disturbed preschoolers, many of them

4:51

autistic, and it was all from

4:53

a behavioral approach, and it just

4:55

broke my heart. then along with

4:57

having my own children I thought

4:59

there has to be something something

5:01

different a different way a different

5:03

approach and and that really was

5:05

the start of my journey to

5:08

convert from learning theory to a

5:10

developmental approach and then of course

5:12

as soon as you got to

5:14

the developmental approach you had to

5:16

put attachment underneath as the conditions

5:18

that were conducive for the unfolding

5:20

of human potential so that too

5:22

was my journey some 50 years

5:24

ago now. And it was because

5:27

of working with very disturbed preschoolers

5:29

where it was this can't be

5:31

right. This is cruel. That's what

5:33

started it. Wow, that's beautiful. I

5:35

don't think I realized that about

5:37

you, that that's where you started.

5:39

Was there a moment or a

5:41

variety of moments that brought you

5:44

to the point where you're like,

5:46

maybe there's science of behavior, but

5:48

there's something, you know, in the

5:50

heart that's just not feeling good?

5:52

Like, was there a moment or

5:54

was it a collection of moments,

5:56

of course, as a young father

5:58

or a father of young children?

6:00

Well, both, actually. desired to make

6:03

sense of them from inside out.

6:05

And the behavioral approach, you were

6:07

sculpting their behavior. You were getting

6:09

them to behave right as society

6:11

was the standard. rather than the

6:13

optimal development. So the developmental approach

6:15

is much older than learning theory

6:17

actually. It has roots in this,

6:19

but I wasn't taught this in

6:22

graduate school. It had been sidelined.

6:24

So as I was teaching, and

6:26

I was actually teaching, I was

6:28

a prof at the University of

6:30

British Columbia, and teaching developmental psychology,

6:32

I was sent. all of these

6:34

textbooks and I started pulling out

6:36

the ones that had this approach

6:38

and attachment theory and oh my

6:41

goodness it was like I was

6:43

introduced to a way of thinking

6:45

that was much older actually than

6:47

learning theory and was science-based it

6:49

was you know this is how

6:51

the brain works and so my

6:53

conversion was quite quick there were

6:55

a series of boys but I

6:57

never look back because Oh my

7:00

goodness, this is the answer, not

7:02

only to learning theory today, which

7:04

still is a dominant paradigm. but

7:06

also to the doctrine of disorder

7:08

approach, which has swept the world.

7:10

We put doctors in charge of

7:12

our children. It only happened in

7:14

North America, in the UK, it

7:16

didn't happen anywhere else, but now

7:19

it's happening everywhere, where doctors are

7:21

in charge of children, which is,

7:23

no, this is never what it

7:25

was meant to be. So my

7:27

Neufeld Institute has a mission, and

7:29

that's to put parents back in

7:31

the driver's seat of their children,

7:33

because we need to be the

7:35

answers. children need. Absolutely, yeah, and

7:38

that's so aligned with everything that

7:40

we talk about on the show

7:42

and everything that I do for

7:44

my work too. It's showing parents

7:46

how important their role is and

7:48

putting them back. Pivotal. Absolutely pivotal.

7:50

And there's a crisis of confidence

7:52

in parents today. As parents think

7:55

that experts know more, well it

7:57

doesn't matter how much you know

7:59

it is who you are to

8:01

your child that counts. And the

8:03

conditions aren't about having a bright

8:05

savvy parent. That's not what it

8:07

enables a child to realize their

8:09

potential. We've got it wrong. We

8:11

think that power is a knowledge.

8:14

It isn't in knowledge. It is

8:16

in aligning ourselves with nature and

8:18

how nature grows a child up.

8:20

We don't have to know anything.

8:22

We just have to step up

8:24

to be the answer our child

8:26

needs. And so it's much different

8:28

paradigm, but one that goes... deep

8:30

deep into history reaches very deep

8:33

into an understanding which then this

8:35

is the thesis of the developmental

8:37

approach that the unfolding of human

8:39

potential is absolutely spontaneous if the

8:41

conditions are conducive. That is the

8:43

essence of it and once I

8:45

understood that there was no turning

8:47

back for me. There can't be.

8:49

There can't be. I felt the

8:52

same. As soon as I understood,

8:54

oh my goodness, I'm looking at

8:56

this so, so wrong. You know,

8:58

it's about setting up this environment

9:00

to be conducive so that the

9:02

potential that our children have can

9:04

unfold. Just naturally unfolds. You see

9:06

it unfolding before your eyes. And

9:08

you know that at the most,

9:11

we're just midwives to that process.

9:13

Like life, recovery, potential does unfold.

9:15

So let's say a parent comes

9:17

and they're just saying their kid

9:19

refuses to go to school or

9:21

to listen to them in the

9:23

morning and they're like, how can

9:25

I support them in this? My

9:27

child doesn't want to go to

9:30

school. It's so difficult. Is there

9:32

a way that they could reframe

9:34

that or see it from a

9:36

different perspective? That's a difficult one

9:38

because there may be very good

9:40

reasons for the child to not

9:42

want to go to school. They

9:44

may be being bullied. They may

9:46

not be understood by their teacher.

9:49

There may be no attachment figure

9:51

there that they can feel at

9:53

home with. There may be all

9:55

kinds of things that are going

9:57

on. So for us to believe

9:59

that societal standards are the norm,

10:01

is a... mistake. So that's a

10:03

difficult one to start off with,

10:06

to simply assume that the problem

10:08

is with the child instead of

10:10

the problem is with the circumstances.

10:12

But let's give it... to say

10:14

that there's something here that is

10:16

stuck with the child. First of

10:18

all, we would explore in this

10:20

case, is a child feeling the

10:22

coercion of this? And if they're

10:25

feeling coercion, like you've got to

10:27

go to school, it's time to

10:29

get dressed now and so on,

10:31

well, there may be difficulty in

10:33

that the person who's bossing the

10:35

child around is not the person

10:37

the child is attached to. And

10:39

if they are attached to, they're

10:41

attached in the wrong mode, not

10:44

in a dependent trusting mode, but

10:46

in Alpha being the boss mode,

10:48

then it doesn't feel right for

10:50

any child to take orders. And

10:52

it may be because the parent

10:54

isn't collecting the child, being able

10:56

to engage the attachment instincts because

10:58

that's where all the power lies.

11:00

It may be because the child

11:03

is experiencing too much separation in

11:05

going to school. And it may

11:07

be because the child cannot hold

11:09

on to the parent, because attachment

11:11

needs to develop, it needs to

11:13

go from being with, to being

11:15

the same as, to belonging, to

11:17

significance. Well, if the child can't

11:19

hold on to mom and dad

11:22

when going to school, why would

11:24

they want to separate? That's a

11:26

very good reason. But the condition

11:28

that's not there is an attachment

11:30

that they can hold on to

11:32

the parent. went apart. So it's

11:34

looking at this. There's not a

11:36

one-size-fits-all here. It is looking at,

11:38

okay, what's really going on? It's

11:41

making sense of the child from

11:43

inside out in this case and

11:45

providing that kind of thing. But

11:47

school is probably the worst invention

11:49

of society. It involves separation to

11:51

even send a child to school

11:53

which alarms them, which causes all

11:55

kinds of problems, and it sets

11:57

up peer orientation where they revolve

12:00

around their peers. So having a

12:02

child who has trouble going to

12:04

school would probably be a good

12:06

thing to develop. mentally and not

12:08

a bad thing, but there's other

12:10

reasons as well. So that's why

12:12

I say this is, but it

12:14

points out the fact that as

12:17

parents we must not buy into

12:19

societal norms. We must not simply

12:21

assume. that the standard of our

12:23

child is how they fit into

12:25

society? The standard that we must

12:27

use is their potential unfolding. Are

12:29

they emergent curious creatures? Can they

12:31

feel their emotions and instincts? Are

12:33

they attached to those who are

12:36

responsible for them? Do they seek

12:38

to be close to? These are

12:40

the things that we look at

12:42

that indicate emotional health and well-being.

12:44

not whether they should protest in

12:46

terms of going to school until

12:48

they can hold on to mommy

12:50

and daddy or the village has

12:52

extended to include their school. So

12:55

you didn't expect that answer, did

12:57

you? Well, I did know I

12:59

was throwing you specifically a bit

13:01

of a curveball because this is

13:03

something in our practice. I have

13:05

six therapists and we all work

13:07

with children and youth and their

13:09

parents, of course, and school refusal

13:11

is just, it's at the top

13:14

of our practice. And a lot

13:16

of what we're doing is exactly

13:18

what you're talking about, almost talking

13:20

to our parents about. their own

13:22

expectations, you know, and I think

13:24

a lot of times the behavior

13:26

that the kids are having actually

13:28

makes a lot of sense, given

13:30

the circumstance. Absolutely. So that actually

13:33

brings me to my next question

13:35

and the big question that I

13:37

really wanted to cover with you

13:39

today, which is what we know

13:41

of what we're seeing or what.

13:43

we're hearing and what parents are

13:45

very alarmed about is that kids

13:47

are experiencing the highest rates of

13:49

mental health diagnosis. Kids are struggling.

13:52

We've heard from let's say the

13:54

US Surgeons General is saying that

13:56

parents are struggling at higher rates

13:58

of burnout than ever before and

14:00

I know I know you have

14:02

a lot. It's actually was an

14:04

advisory wasn't it? That parenting is

14:06

a beware because it's distressing. It's

14:08

not good for your health. It

14:11

was the most ridiculous. thing ever.

14:13

Actually hold on before we get

14:15

there I just I wanted to

14:17

touch on one thing that you

14:19

said right away because I know

14:21

people are going to want to

14:23

know what you're saying here. You

14:25

said that the developmental approach is

14:28

older than all of the other

14:30

approaches, like kind of the behaviorist

14:32

approach, everything like that. What I

14:34

hear from people is like, oh,

14:36

this, you know, parent-child relationship, this

14:38

is trendy, this is new, you

14:40

know, we'll filter back to punishing

14:42

our kids or using more behavioral

14:44

methods. Can you speak to how

14:47

this is not some trendy new

14:49

approach? to helping our kids and

14:51

how attachment is not just breastfeeding

14:53

your baby till they're five. Like

14:55

some people might say to me,

14:57

you know, can you talk about

14:59

the science and how it's not

15:01

new? Jessica, that's a big question.

15:03

But I'll try to be brief

15:06

here. The attachment-based approach, the problem

15:08

here is language to segue and

15:10

I think this is where you

15:12

probably picked it up. It's a

15:14

matter of language. It has its

15:16

roots in the ancient Greeks. and

15:18

where the discovery of that togetherness

15:20

was the basic human need. And

15:22

through the years, when science was

15:25

basically the alchemical approach, and by

15:27

that I don't mean trying to

15:29

make gold out of lead, what

15:31

I mean is that that was

15:33

a medieval kind of reductionistic idea

15:35

of alchemy. Alchemy was the idea

15:37

that everything had a potential that

15:39

could unfold. Even things like common

15:41

lead had this potential and it

15:44

could be gold if conditions were

15:46

conducive. So it harbored the developmental

15:48

approach, but it became reduced just

15:50

like in today we have reductionism

15:52

with attachment thinking it is about

15:54

baby bonding and it is about

15:56

breastfeeding and so on. It's not

15:58

at all. The quest for togetherness

16:00

is the bottom drive. The whole

16:03

brain is an organ of attachment.

16:05

Every neuron has to be attached

16:07

to every neuron. every other neuron

16:09

and working properly to attachment. Now

16:11

the big breakthrough with this was

16:13

at about the time of John

16:15

Bolby when two things happened. They

16:17

realized that survival was not a

16:19

human drive. In other words, it

16:22

always had been assumed. that survival

16:24

was the bottom and Maslow's pyramid

16:26

of needs for those who remember

16:28

that in intro psych and in

16:30

university. Maslow's pyramid of needs had

16:32

survival there and there was a

16:34

realization with Harlow and his monkeys

16:36

and all kinds of other people

16:39

is oh my goodness there is

16:41

no drive to survive. The drive

16:43

is for togetherness because way our

16:45

brains are organized is they're organized

16:47

according to an algorithm that the

16:49

survival lies. in togetherness. And so

16:51

that's where the drive is. Now

16:53

that's been called all kinds of

16:55

things through the ages. It's been

16:58

called our relational needs, object relations,

17:00

as far as early attachment theory.

17:02

It's been called so many things.

17:04

So people didn't recognize all of

17:06

this. It was called social conformity,

17:08

the quest for sameness, because that's

17:10

a way of coming together. It

17:12

was called the Quest for significance.

17:14

It was called intimacy and a

17:17

whole other field. So it's like

17:19

this elephant that you approach in

17:21

different pieces. You got to put

17:23

them all together again. And so

17:25

the word attachment was derived to

17:27

try and gather all of the

17:29

pieces. And that is what the

17:31

idea is. But it's a very

17:33

old, it's 2,500-year-old attachment theory. So

17:36

with a new name, that is

17:38

only about 80 years old now.

17:40

So it's new name, it is,

17:42

but because people are very reductionistic

17:44

in their thinking, they immediately think

17:46

not of togetherness. love, belonging, all

17:48

of the things of intimacy, all

17:50

of these things are there. They

17:52

think of these very, very reduced

17:55

ways of togetherness. Of course, we

17:57

all start out with wanting to

17:59

be with. But we should continue

18:01

on when we can't be with

18:03

to wanting to be like to

18:05

belonging, being a part of, to

18:07

mattering to, to an emotional sense

18:09

of closeness, and to ultimately a

18:12

sense of psychological intimacy being known

18:14

from inside out. So it's a

18:16

very big topic. And the answer,

18:18

parents will say, or preschool teachers

18:20

will say, well, when a preschool

18:22

or protest, going to preschool, the

18:24

separation. They will say, well, the

18:26

child is too attached to the

18:29

parent. Well, that's not true. That's

18:31

not true. If the child was

18:33

attached sufficiently, in other words, if

18:35

the child was able to hold

18:37

on to mommy to daddy went

18:39

apart, they wouldn't have a problem.

18:41

So the issue is not that

18:43

they're too attached, but they're not

18:46

attached enough. And like a plant,

18:48

when you're realizing you have a

18:50

proper analogy, can a plant ever

18:52

be too attached? It can be

18:54

too superficially attached. It can be

18:56

too insecurely attached. It can't ever

18:58

be too attached. And so attachment

19:00

is what makes the world go

19:03

round. Poets would say it's love

19:05

that makes the world go around.

19:07

Scientists says it's attachment. We're speaking

19:09

the same language. It's just that

19:11

we're not allowed to use the

19:13

word love. It's a four-letter word

19:15

for scientists. That's so helpful. I

19:17

think parents really need to hear

19:19

that because a lot of parents

19:22

that we're supporting, they get this

19:24

pushback from their parents, right? Like,

19:26

well, we never took this type

19:28

of approach and this is all

19:30

new. Yes, well this backlash is

19:32

in a sense unbelievable. Should we

19:34

have utmost respect for nature? Should

19:36

we assume that a child would

19:39

make sense if we could make

19:41

sense of them? Should parenting be

19:43

shame-free? Absolutely. Absolutely. And oh my

19:45

goodness, we can't have a sense

19:47

of gentleness and respect and regard.

19:49

There's something wrong. afraid of upset?

19:51

Can we not take a rightful

19:53

position as being in charge? Can

19:56

we put the child in lead

19:58

too much? And so, you know,

20:00

they're just a child. And if

20:02

they put in lead, then our

20:04

care doesn't come through. That's true

20:06

too. So we're putting all kinds

20:08

of things into one bag and

20:10

then we're pushing it under the

20:13

bus. That's ridiculous. It's so uninformed.

20:15

This backlash against gentle parenting is

20:17

so uninformed. It's so uninformed. Yeah,

20:19

and it's so hard for the

20:21

parents doing it because I think

20:23

in their heart, like both of

20:25

us, right, they know that this

20:27

is the right approach, but then

20:30

they hear the backlash from their

20:32

parents and they just wonder if

20:34

they are. So I wanted them

20:36

to hear it from you, right?

20:38

I wanted them to hear it

20:40

straight from the source. Yes, and

20:42

again, the question you're asking yourself

20:44

if you're looking at it. is

20:47

should it be a shame free

20:49

environment? Should the child ever feel

20:51

like there's something wrong with them?

20:53

Do you ever need to bring

20:55

harsh discipline into it? Absolutely no.

20:57

You shouldn't. If the conditions are

20:59

conducive, absolutely no. Should the child

21:01

be in charge of decisions that

21:04

have to do with our care

21:06

for them? No, because then our

21:08

care doesn't get through. And so

21:10

when you find the balance between

21:12

those two things and you step

21:14

up to take your rightful role

21:16

as being the one that takes

21:18

care of your child, makes the

21:21

difficult decisions that is there, and

21:23

there is a sense of respect.

21:25

and it's shame free for the

21:27

child? Yes, that's exactly what we

21:29

want. And yes, it does appear

21:31

gentle but not afraid of upset.

21:33

Yes, absolutely. I love that you

21:35

clarified that. We are the leader

21:38

and we're not afraid of upset.

21:40

We just had Dr. Deborah McNamara

21:42

on and she talks a lot

21:44

about our role and our role

21:46

as the caregiver and provider because

21:48

we were talking about nourished. So

21:50

people could also listen to that

21:52

for more on that topic. Hey

21:59

friend Just interrupting the episode for

22:01

a minute just to talk to

22:03

you about bedtime. If bedtime is

22:05

a struggle in your home, I

22:07

want you to know that I

22:09

totally get it. For years, we

22:11

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22:13

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22:15

wrong. We were looking at bedtime

22:17

stalling and protesting. That's something that

22:19

our daughter was doing that was

22:21

wrong or bad. But we were

22:23

missing that at the core of

22:25

the bedtime battles that we were

22:27

having, we were having a separation

22:29

struggle and we needed to look

22:31

at it from a new lens.

22:33

Our course solving bedtime battles is

22:35

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22:37

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22:39

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22:42

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22:44

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22:46

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22:48

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22:50

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22:58

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23:00

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23:12

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23:14

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23:16

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10%. Let's make bedtime a time

23:22

of peace and rest together. All

23:24

right, back to the show. So

23:26

let's bring it back now. So

23:28

now we kind of have the

23:30

framework in which we are understanding

23:32

development and understanding that children need

23:34

togetherness, they need their parents, parents

23:36

need to be in control. Yes.

23:38

And now let's talk about my

23:40

original question or comment, which is

23:42

parents are struggling, kids are struggling.

23:44

How do we get here? I

23:46

mean, that's a big question. Your

23:48

question was, what is behind this

23:50

mental health crisis with their kids?

23:52

Why are they so much in

23:54

trouble, right? As a developmentalist, you're

23:56

asking the question is, how do

23:58

these problems form? What does the

24:00

brain need to function optimally? So

24:02

we can actually bring it down

24:05

to question. of the brain nowadays.

24:07

And this is where the answer

24:09

is very surprising and all evidence

24:11

points to it. Like there's various

24:13

levels of depth and I'll go

24:15

to one and very quickly just

24:17

give you a nutshell here. But

24:19

the nutshell is that feelings are

24:21

what make us human and humane.

24:23

They're the last evolutionary advance. They're

24:25

what fully bring us into our

24:27

potential, grow us up, are at

24:29

the basis of healing and recovery.

24:31

And so the bottom line you

24:33

could say is we're losing our

24:35

feelings. In fact, that is a

24:37

common denominator of almost every diagnosis.

24:39

Every syndrome, troubling syndrome, is a

24:41

loss of feeling. The irony is

24:43

that there is no measure for

24:45

this. There is not one diagnosis

24:47

that takes us into consideration. We

24:49

have been blinded by thinking that

24:51

feelings don't count, and there are

24:53

what make us human and humane.

24:55

And so then we ask the

24:57

question, Why are our children losing

24:59

our feelings? Why are we losing

25:01

the feelings? Is it because there's

25:03

not emotional literacy programs going on

25:05

in school? And so people are

25:07

going, okay, feelings are the answer.

25:09

We've got to do this. No,

25:11

that's not the answer. We routinely

25:13

lose our feelings every day because

25:15

of the stress response. The brain

25:17

can only do so much. Feelings

25:19

are the feedback that it requires

25:21

to optimize its emotional operations. In

25:23

other words, our animating brain, when

25:26

I mean by that, that which

25:28

moves us, our emotions and instincts,

25:30

require proper feelings to find its

25:32

way through. It's blind. And so

25:34

the feelings are required to optimize

25:36

the operations of the brain. We

25:38

lose our feelings. Our brain doesn't

25:40

function properly. Now we have the

25:42

key to dysfunction. But what do

25:44

we need for feelings? Well, all

25:46

the evidence is pointing to safety.

25:48

But people then are getting it

25:50

wrong. They think, oh, well, you

25:52

have to have a safe environment,

25:54

safer wounds, safe... from being in,

25:56

you know, insulted, safe, from bullying,

25:58

say from this, no, no, no,

26:00

no, no, no, no, the brain

26:02

has to be in one of

26:04

two operating states. It has to

26:06

be in the operating state of

26:08

trusting dependence upon an attachment figure

26:10

that is in charge of caring.

26:12

You could be in the middle

26:14

of war with bombs dropping down.

26:16

If the child is in this

26:18

dependent trusting thing, they feel safe.

26:20

Are they safe? No, we weren't

26:22

talking about that. They feel safe.

26:24

And because they feel safe, they

26:26

can feel. Now, should they feel

26:28

safe? Well, yes, because the brain

26:30

has to feel. So they need

26:32

to feel safe. So the brain

26:34

is taking care of this, but

26:36

we're not taking care of this.

26:38

Because children are falling out of

26:40

attachments. They're falling out of the

26:42

stressing dependence. We're confusing alpha children

26:44

with being independent children. We've been

26:46

chasing independence for 400 years. We

26:49

were chasing the wrong thing. They

26:51

need to be dependent upon us.

26:53

And the other one is, is

26:55

that the operating state of the

26:57

brain is in the play mode.

26:59

Why? Well, you think of a

27:01

wolf cub. When the mother wolf

27:03

is in smell, the wolf cub

27:05

can play. And so that is

27:07

the secondary operating state of the

27:09

brain if attachment is taken through

27:11

of children move into play. And

27:13

safety is part of that play.

27:15

I don't mean... video games and

27:17

those kinds of things because that's

27:19

not true play. True play is

27:21

not outcome-based. So we call all

27:23

kinds of things play that aren't

27:25

played. So it's safety. Then when

27:27

we say, well, why are we

27:29

losing the safety? Because of a

27:31

loss of cascading care and a

27:33

loss of true play. all of

27:35

the research is showing that the

27:37

children are falling out of hierarchy

27:39

into what I call peer orientation

27:41

and this is what I wrote

27:43

the book about you know 20

27:45

years ago and it's more true

27:47

than ever is a peer-based and

27:49

they're losing their true play all

27:51

the play theorists are crying the

27:53

alarm but what are the implications

27:55

a loss of feeling a loss

27:57

of what allows the brain to

27:59

operate at its potential. So where

28:01

is the source of dysfunction? We

28:03

trace it all the way down

28:05

to children are falling out of

28:07

cascading care. They're no longer depending

28:10

upon the adults responsible for them.

28:12

They're not attached to it and

28:14

so on. But I mean, that's

28:16

a book, right? That's a whole

28:18

lot of books. That's a whole

28:20

volume of books. But that's in

28:22

a nutshell. Why are we in

28:24

trouble? We're losing our feelings. Why

28:26

are we losing feelings? Our brains

28:28

don't deem us as safe. Why

28:30

don't they deem us as safe?

28:32

We've fallen out of cascading care

28:34

and we no longer have true

28:36

play. And is that true for

28:38

adults as well? Absolutely. We no

28:40

longer depend upon a God who

28:42

is there to take care of

28:44

us. We no longer depend upon

28:46

our ancestors. We no longer keep

28:48

them even in our minds. We

28:50

don't do this. All the things

28:52

that indigenous cultures would have taught

28:54

us we have lost. So we

28:56

have fallen out of cascading care

28:58

as well. everything you're saying it

29:00

makes so much sense that I

29:02

think for a lot of people

29:04

is going to be really new

29:06

for them right like I think

29:08

we're not talking about this and

29:10

that's again why I wanted to

29:12

have you on can you define

29:14

cascading care for someone who's never

29:16

heard that term before yes yes

29:18

think of a waterfall cascading and

29:20

you think of the waterfall and

29:22

with a series of pools right

29:24

when you receive The overflow is

29:26

from which you give care. So

29:28

it says that giving care comes

29:30

when you have received care generously,

29:33

when the care is secure, there's

29:35

not a bunch of leaks everywhere,

29:37

so you can overflow into care.

29:39

So I have seven grandchildren, is

29:41

that we take care of the

29:43

youngest of them, two and a

29:45

half years of age, two days

29:47

a week. and all of her

29:49

play all of her whole life

29:51

is in this cascading care. She

29:53

has all of her babies and

29:55

stuffies that she takes care of

29:57

because she feels generously taken care

29:59

of when she doesn't all of

30:01

that stops. And so you can

30:03

see this cascading care. but it

30:05

also speaks to alignment. What if

30:07

the pools were not aligned? That

30:09

is the care that is given,

30:11

you know, the wonderful thing about

30:13

a relationship, it's forever. Like if

30:15

you felt cared for by a

30:17

grandparent that has long died. because

30:19

relationship is forever they will be

30:21

your grandparent dead or alive you

30:23

can still benefit from that care

30:25

and you still shall keep them

30:27

in your village of attachment and

30:29

cascading care experience of it love

30:31

it feel it as you feel

30:33

cared for and that's aligned as

30:35

you attach so we're attached That

30:37

is the transmission system of care.

30:39

And so cascading care is the

30:41

bottom line, all the way around.

30:43

It is what makes it go

30:45

through. But notice, it's vertically aligned,

30:47

not horizontal. Today's idea is that

30:49

we belong with those who are

30:51

the same as us. So people

30:53

will say, well, I don't see

30:56

anybody that looks like me. You

30:58

know, I don't feel like I

31:00

belong. Well, that is about the

31:02

most superficial way. That's like those

31:04

birds that similarity means it's at

31:06

the basis of the flocking. No,

31:08

it's about care. I belong to

31:10

those who care for me and

31:12

all the way down it is

31:14

a vertical system of care. And

31:16

so it is not about belonging

31:18

to those who look like us,

31:20

who are the same as us,

31:22

and so we think today that

31:24

children need to be with their

31:26

peers because they need to have

31:28

a sense of belonging. What you'll

31:30

never get a sense of belonging

31:32

of fit. That is one of

31:34

the crisis of today. There's a

31:36

crisis of not fitting. And why

31:38

is it that you don't fit?

31:40

Because it is not meant to

31:42

be around saying this. You'll forever

31:44

feel your differentness. And that is

31:46

the cry of youth today. I

31:48

don't fit. I'm different. And so

31:50

there's all kinds of different answers

31:52

to, oh, then you must be

31:54

this, or it's this, no, no,

31:56

no. first of all, you know,

31:58

where are your parents and grandparents

32:00

in this? Where are those who

32:02

are caring for you? That's where

32:04

you fit and where you're always

32:06

meant to fit. This is meant

32:08

to be an attachment relationship of

32:10

cascading care. This is where everyone

32:12

is meant to be embedded in

32:14

it. And when children fall out

32:17

of that. they're in trouble. Yeah

32:19

I think it's huge and that

32:21

goes back to the parents struggle

32:23

right as parents I think for

32:25

so long there was this push

32:27

for independence right like we want

32:29

to be independent independent from our

32:31

parents. Yes. That's what we've been

32:33

doing independently though like it's all

32:35

what it's about and this is

32:37

it's ridiculous most ridiculous thing in

32:39

the world we should be inviting

32:41

them to depend upon us I

32:43

will take care of you and

32:45

that should be our bottom line

32:47

the child should experience is wonderful

32:49

generous I will take care of

32:51

you. I've got your back, honey.

32:53

You know, you matter to me.

32:55

Like, I'm going to hold on

32:57

to you. Hence, the title of

32:59

my phone. Hold on to your

33:01

kids. I just have a few

33:03

kind of practical stories from what

33:05

you just said, but one of

33:07

them that I think about a

33:09

lot, you talked about how grandparents

33:11

can still care for you, even

33:13

if they have passed away. And

33:15

I think it's so important to

33:17

remember that we still have that

33:19

care that they gave that they

33:21

gave us, even when they gave

33:23

us, even when they were here.

33:25

of cascading care that came to

33:27

mind the first time I heard

33:29

you talk about this which was

33:31

years ago. Let me just understand

33:33

Jessica there just for a minute.

33:35

You're using the language even when

33:37

they were with us but attachment

33:40

isn't about being with. You see

33:42

when it moves down it's a

33:44

relationship it's a forever thing. And

33:46

that's the beauty of it so

33:48

you actually have to see that's

33:50

got nothing to view with being

33:52

with. It has to do with

33:54

a sense of connection that is

33:56

deep emotional and a sense of

33:58

being known from inside out. That's

34:00

the beauty of it. I interrupted.

34:02

Oh no, I love that interruption.

34:04

Your grandparents. it's so beautiful and

34:06

I've really grown I think understanding

34:08

your work just to respect and

34:10

realize how critical that relationship is

34:12

and I hope grandparents will listen

34:14

to this episode too and see

34:16

that they still have a role

34:18

in their child's life. Oh do

34:20

they ever? And if they knew

34:22

that they have that role dead

34:24

or alive they would prepare for

34:26

that for being that dead as

34:28

well. We have a responsibility to

34:30

preserve that connection, us, with those

34:32

who have gone on before. We

34:34

have that by keeping them in

34:36

our memory, but also it's the

34:38

relationship that is there if we

34:40

benefited from it. And that's just

34:42

one of the mistakes we're making

34:44

in thinking that, you know, like

34:46

even grandparents belonging with each other,

34:48

you know, that retired. No, no,

34:50

no, no. There is nothing in

34:52

our evolutionary history that suggests we

34:54

belong with individuals who are the

34:56

same as us. We belong in

34:58

the transmission of care. That's where

35:01

our fulfillment is. My occupation is

35:03

a sideline. My real fulfillment of

35:05

my evolutionary purpose is as being

35:07

a grandfather. No. And I wish

35:09

more grandparents could see that and

35:11

they could see that and have

35:13

a respect for their children and

35:15

what their children need because I

35:17

know a lot of my generation

35:19

is struggling because their parents are

35:21

not. involved, but their parents are

35:23

kind of like, oh, I did

35:25

my job, you know, you're raised,

35:27

you're grown up, I'm gonna go

35:29

to Florida for the winter. I

35:31

got by emancipation, right? Exactly. To

35:33

Arizona or some place that's warm

35:35

in the sun. Exactly. And then

35:37

I think we have parents that

35:39

don't have support, they're left on

35:41

their own with their kids. And

35:43

now what? So I'll tell you

35:45

my story, because I just know

35:47

that you will enjoy this story.

35:49

at the time. And I remember

35:51

being so, so sad. She was

35:53

my first real loss of an

35:55

attachment figure. It was very difficult

35:57

because this is the first time

35:59

I've really lost someone who I

36:01

was very attached to. So my

36:03

baby's crying one night and I'm

36:05

sad about everything and I'm really,

36:07

really struggling to know how to

36:09

respond to my baby. And all

36:11

of a sudden, just in my

36:13

mind, this Dutch lullaby that myoma

36:15

used to sing to me just

36:17

comes to mind. It just pops

36:19

in there. I can hear her

36:21

voice singing it and I just

36:24

start to sing it to my

36:26

daughter. And we just are in

36:28

the room and it's dark and

36:30

I'm just singing her this song.

36:32

I just start bawling, you know,

36:34

crying, just thinking, man, all those

36:36

times she sang it to me.

36:38

This Dutch lullaby, I don't even

36:40

speak Dutch, I am Dutch, but

36:42

I don't speak much. But it

36:44

just, I wondered how many of

36:46

my ancestors have saying the song

36:48

and saying this song and saying

36:50

this song and every child thinks

36:52

it's comforting them. me. And that's

36:54

just really stuff with me. The

36:56

lullaby goes two ways really because

36:58

it puts you in an arrangement

37:00

where you're the answer to your

37:02

child. It goes through, the music

37:04

is the first language, it was

37:06

the first language evolutionary, it's the

37:08

first language in the womb, it's

37:10

the first language always, it goes

37:12

so deep into the brain, and

37:14

it can orchestrate, it's the only

37:16

thing that can orchestrate, because music

37:18

is notes over time in a

37:20

pattern that can be recognized and

37:22

that is engaging. And that's the

37:24

definition of music. And music is

37:26

the only thing that brings us

37:28

there. Now what the lullabye does

37:30

is it's so clever because it's

37:32

in the minor chord. And so

37:34

it's in the key of sadness.

37:36

And so there's a melancholy nature,

37:38

but that's the only way we

37:40

can let go of the things

37:42

that we're trying to hold on

37:45

to that are upsetting us. And

37:47

so it actually calms us at

37:49

the very, very core, at the

37:51

core of the brainstem actually. It's

37:53

a feeling that we need to

37:55

have. for the brain to function.

37:57

So the lullaby is clever. We

37:59

were talking about the brain needing

38:01

feelings because it walks its way

38:03

through. Well, one of the feelings

38:05

that it needs, it's two feelings

38:07

are at the basis, the feeling

38:09

of missing, that is that you

38:11

can feel the holes in your

38:13

attachment fabric in the fabric of

38:15

togetherness. And so you'll know that

38:17

a child is relatively healthy if

38:19

they can say I miss. And

38:21

as soon as they stop saying

38:23

it, you know they're in trouble.

38:25

The next thing is that when

38:27

the brain can't fix the problem

38:29

of togetherness, which is what it's

38:31

committed to, then there is some

38:33

sadness that is felt, and that

38:35

is the way the brain can

38:37

let go and build resilience, and

38:39

the lullaby is clever in giving

38:41

us that tool, and we don't

38:43

even know what it's about. That's

38:45

how clever it is. It's the

38:47

oldest instrument of parenting that we

38:49

know of. It is the oldest

38:51

one and it is the one

38:53

that, again, as you say, can

38:55

be passed on through generations and

38:57

every child should have their own

38:59

designated lullaby, you know, everything. But

39:01

you think of this and we

39:03

think of the absolute intelligence that

39:05

is packed into a tiny ritual.

39:08

when culture has had millennia to

39:10

evolve with nature, to dance and

39:12

evolve this, and to our knowledge

39:14

the lullaby existed in every traditional

39:16

culture. which is amazing, which is

39:18

absolutely amazing. That's incredible. That's beautiful.

39:20

Yeah, thank you for sharing that.

39:22

It's just those things that allow

39:24

us to have our feelings, right?

39:26

And it can bring us back

39:28

into feeling cared for even when

39:30

that person's not there. They're not

39:32

physically there. Absolutely. Yes, the relationship

39:34

is alive just because somebody dies

39:36

doesn't mean the relationship dies for

39:38

better or for worse Yes, that

39:40

might be a very terrible thing

39:42

and it may be a very

39:44

good thing But just because you

39:46

know somebody dies we make way

39:48

too much of this. So to

39:50

bring it back to our kids

39:52

who are struggling, like we've talked

39:54

about losing feelings, we're talked about

39:56

how they're not in cascading care,

39:58

how can we protect our children?

40:00

How can we help this mental

40:02

health crisis? Where do we start?

40:04

Well, that's the bottom line is

40:06

to know that relationships counts and

40:08

to know that caring is only

40:10

delivered because they are in greater

40:12

need of care. The caring isn't

40:14

getting through. They are unable to

40:16

have their feelings. So once we

40:18

know that the bottom line is,

40:20

and this is where we go

40:22

back to the gentle parenting, which

40:24

should be the bottom line in

40:26

all parenting, is the relationship is

40:28

the bottom line. That is like

40:31

many people say, well, what's the

40:33

bottom line here? Those that criticize

40:35

this say behavior should be at

40:37

the bottom line. Social fit should

40:39

be at the bottom line. Uh-uh.

40:41

No. Relationship is the bottom line

40:43

because there's no way to get

40:45

our care through. Everything else we

40:47

can be creative about. We can

40:49

adjust. We can adapt. We can

40:51

figure out our way. But we

40:53

must not sacrifice the relationship. And

40:55

that is the bottom line. And

40:57

so the good news is that

40:59

when we know its relationship. It

41:01

is never too late. It's always

41:03

something we could work with. And

41:05

how does relationship begin with an

41:07

invitation to exist in one's presence?

41:09

I want to be in relationship

41:11

with you. I invite you to

41:13

be in relationship with me. The

41:15

eyes twinkle. You know, I invite

41:17

you to be in my presence.

41:19

I enjoy you. I like you.

41:21

You matter to me. You're important

41:23

to me. Like that's the invitation.

41:25

And that invitation should be there

41:27

regardless of the problem behavior. Regardless

41:29

of our frustrations. Like that's the

41:31

bottom line. Like, you know, when

41:33

you had your baby. I remember

41:35

my own my third daughter, saying

41:37

she was having. difficult to giving

41:39

birth. This was her first child.

41:41

And she started a mantra and

41:43

it was just a beautiful mantra.

41:45

I gotta remember. I gotta remember

41:47

to invite him to to exist.

41:49

I gotta remember to, you know,

41:52

getting ready for the birth, right?

41:54

Because she was in a lot

41:56

of pain and so I got

41:58

to remember to invite him to

42:00

exist in my presence and she

42:02

went through with this incredible invitation

42:04

to exist which has been the

42:06

dance all the way through. Our

42:08

grandchild is now 12 years of

42:10

age. Beautiful relationship, but that's the

42:12

bottom line. To invite to exist

42:14

in my presence to not let

42:16

anything come between. It's a matter

42:18

of priorities. It's a matter of

42:20

knowing where to put our energy.

42:22

It's a matter of knowing to

42:24

put our intervention. Most of the

42:26

things that we battle against in

42:28

parenting will resolve themselves spontaneously somewhere

42:30

along the line. You know, how

42:32

many five-year-olds do you still know

42:34

that need their diaper changed? Most

42:36

of the things will be resolved

42:38

somewhere along the line. It will

42:40

be spontaneous, their development, what nature

42:42

can't do. It can't hold on

42:44

to our child for us. Again,

42:46

hence the title of the book.

42:48

That's our job. Hold on to

42:50

our child. Invite them to exist

42:52

in your presence. Make sure that

42:54

invitation gets through. Collect their eyes,

42:56

a smile, collect their nods. Do

42:58

this routinely through the day before

43:00

separation, after separation. Bridge anything that

43:02

comes between. Match make them to

43:04

others who are involved in raising

43:06

them because children need to be

43:08

attached to those who are raising

43:10

them. That's the flaw of our

43:12

school system. Our school doesn't put

43:15

the parents in the lead. It's

43:17

got to put the parents in

43:19

the lead. That's the only school

43:21

system that works is when you

43:23

put the parents in the lead

43:25

in the matchmaking. So relationship is

43:27

the bottom line and it starts

43:29

with an invitation to exist in

43:31

our presence. That's not breakable. That

43:33

is, and that's our job to

43:35

hold on. That's the opposite of

43:37

one of the greatest voices in

43:39

Europe today that's being exported from

43:41

Canada. Jordan Peterson. who says that

43:43

your children have to be nice

43:45

so that you will like them.

43:47

It's their job to be nice

43:49

and you get the opposite. That

43:51

is, and unfortunately he's having way

43:53

more influence. He's not a developmental

43:55

psychologist. He should not even speak

43:57

about this, and yet the following

43:59

he has is unbelievable. And for

44:01

that reason, I speak to it

44:03

because you're getting the opposite message

44:05

from a lot of people there

44:07

who are saying, no, it's a

44:09

child's responsibility to be likable. Yeah.

44:11

I heard that one recently too,

44:13

and I had to shake my

44:15

head. I was like, oh my

44:17

goodness, we're losing it. They love

44:19

about your messages. It's so, like,

44:21

at its core, it's so simple,

44:23

right? We want to show our

44:25

children, we delight in them. We

44:27

want to show our children that

44:29

they matter to us and that

44:31

we are with them. But simple

44:33

doesn't mean easy, Jessica. Simple does

44:36

not mean easy. Because, you know,

44:38

giving an invitation to somebody to

44:40

exist in your presence, your partner,

44:42

for instance. Okay? Challenges, everything inside

44:44

of you. It challenges you to

44:46

grow up. And so, you know,

44:48

people say, you'll often say, well,

44:50

don't you have to grow up

44:52

first before you can be an

44:54

effective parent? I said, no, no,

44:56

no. Step up to the plate

44:58

to be the answer your child

45:00

needs, and you will grow up,

45:02

guaranteed. A lot of parents who

45:04

are just like, I don't know,

45:06

Gordon, they're like, I don't know

45:08

how to build a relationship. I've

45:10

never seen it. I don't have

45:12

a relationship with my own parents.

45:14

You know, maybe there is abuse

45:16

or hardship or hardship there. How

45:18

do I show delight? Where do

45:20

I start? That suggests it's a

45:22

skill. It's not a skill. It's

45:24

part of being human. Togetherness is

45:26

part of being human. It's knowing

45:28

that it's important and knowing I'm

45:30

the answer. When you say, well,

45:32

how do I do this? I

45:34

have no model. It suggests that

45:36

the answer is having the right

45:38

answers. That's not what I'm talking

45:40

about. It's being the answer. The

45:42

child is looking to you for

45:44

a sense of significance, for a

45:46

sense of invitation, for a sense

45:48

of being held on to, to

45:50

matter to you. That's not skill.

45:52

That's... matter of stepping up to

45:54

the plate. That's a matter of

45:56

just coming there. If you start,

45:59

this is a dance, the oldest

46:01

dance in the universe. You know

46:03

how to do it to your

46:05

pets. We need to do it

46:07

to our children. As soon as

46:09

you go to how do I

46:11

do this, you're starting to look

46:13

at a manual. You can't dance

46:15

looking at a manual. There's no

46:17

interaction there. Let me see what's

46:19

the right thing to do. You

46:21

do that your child has lost

46:23

you. It's not about doing the

46:25

right thing. And you can make

46:27

a thousand mistakes. Your child is

46:29

not thinking, oh, you're doing it

46:31

right or you're doing it wrong.

46:33

Their question always is the same.

46:35

Does mommy love me? Am I

46:37

important? Daddy's not holding on to

46:39

me. Those are the questions we

46:41

can answer. We don't need knowledge

46:43

to answer it. We just need

46:45

to know that we are the

46:47

answer. We don't need to have

46:49

answers. We are the answer. My

46:51

father died before I wrote the

46:53

book. He died about five years

46:55

earlier. But I was already talking

46:57

about writing a hold on to

46:59

your kids. And he said to

47:01

me, Gordy, that's going to be

47:03

a bad mistake. He said, I

47:05

disagree with you. You know, he

47:07

could have said over his dead

47:09

body, I suppose, because he was

47:11

dead and I did it, you

47:13

know. But his point was well

47:15

taken. He said to me, Gordon,

47:17

I'll tell you a secret. We

47:19

never knew what we were doing.

47:22

We never knew how. He said,

47:24

I don't think anybody has ever

47:26

known how you should feel inadequate.

47:28

It's the most important job in

47:30

the world. You should feel inadequate.

47:32

But we knew that you needed

47:34

to know that we knew what

47:36

we were doing. So we had

47:38

to step up. And what he

47:40

was saying in a fact is

47:42

that no. just get there if

47:44

you have to bluff it bluff

47:46

it if you if you need

47:48

to but just be the answer

47:50

and he was the answer for

47:52

me I felt he inspired me

47:54

to trust in him did he

47:56

ever read a book in parenting

47:58

never did he believe in parenting

48:00

Never. Did he believe that I

48:02

should write a parenting book? Never.

48:04

I did, but I wanted it

48:06

to be a book like none

48:08

other. I wanted it to be

48:10

a book not about how-toos. Yes,

48:12

there are chapters on how-toos there,

48:14

but I want to tell your

48:16

viewers that that was not my

48:18

idea. I just got signed up

48:20

by the largest publishing house in

48:22

the world, Random House, and they

48:24

said we won't publish your book

48:26

unless you put some how-toos there.

48:28

And I said it insults people

48:30

to put how-toos. It suggests that

48:32

the answer is in the how-toos

48:34

rather than they can be the

48:36

answer to their children. I want

48:38

it to be a book on

48:40

relationship. And then they said, well,

48:43

deal broken then, and I caved,

48:45

but I caved not because I

48:47

believed I caved, I believed my

48:49

father, I should never tell individuals

48:51

how to parent because it dumbs

48:53

them down. I should tell parents

48:55

their children need them and help

48:57

them to become the answers their

48:59

children need. Yeah, I hear what

49:01

you're saying there. And I actually

49:03

think of my own father. My

49:05

father is a... mechanic and sells

49:07

used cars. And he always tells

49:09

the story to us about how

49:11

when I came home, I'm the

49:13

oldest, he was like, well, where's

49:15

the manual? Because for every car

49:17

that he would always fix, he'd

49:19

have this user manual, right? And

49:21

he would spend every night reading

49:23

his user manuals. And I remember

49:25

he told me this story, he

49:27

said, because I was wondering where

49:29

the manual was for my own

49:31

kids when I had my oldest

49:33

over eight years ago. And he

49:35

said, he said, yes, you'll want

49:37

a manual. You know, you'll look

49:39

everywhere for it. He's like, I

49:41

did and I couldn't find it.

49:43

He's like, eventually I realized I

49:45

was the manual. You're the answer.

49:47

Yeah. So similar. Yes. And if

49:49

you have more than four children

49:51

or more than one child, I

49:53

mean, I, you know, five children,

49:55

it is a different dance for

49:57

each child in being the answer

49:59

they need. But there is no.

50:01

dance, more rewarding, more fulfilling for

50:03

both parts and now to be

50:06

the grand... that your grandchildren need,

50:08

but that's a question to ask,

50:10

is how can I be the

50:12

father, the grandfather, the mother that

50:14

this child needs? That question will

50:16

bring you to the dance. That

50:18

will be. And that isn't through

50:20

reading a book, even my book,

50:22

although I hope my book is

50:24

different than others. But, you know,

50:26

read it to make sense of

50:28

your child from inside out. And

50:30

can you speak to the parents

50:32

that are struggling about how this

50:34

might also help them? Because I

50:36

think we don't talk enough about

50:38

the reciprocal relationship between the parent

50:40

and the child and how being

50:42

the answer your child needs can

50:44

actually benefit you as well and

50:46

help you with your burnout. Nature

50:48

is very efficient in how it

50:50

works. Both partners of the dance

50:52

experience great fulfillment because it's the

50:54

most important dance, the most important

50:56

responsibility in a sense to raise

50:58

our offspring to their potential. And

51:00

you can think of this in

51:02

terms of partners, like what gives

51:04

the juice to a marriage? You

51:06

know, I mean, in today's cultures,

51:08

you think of romance, but romance

51:10

requires surprise. And if you're bright

51:12

at all... You can't keep on

51:14

being surprised by the same thing.

51:16

So romance has a half-life to

51:18

it. But people don't realize that,

51:20

you know, no, you can't act

51:22

that dumb all the time and

51:24

you can't be ahead of the

51:27

game, especially if you have an

51:29

intelligent partner. You can't do this.

51:31

So what's the juice? Well, the

51:33

juice is very simple. The juice

51:35

is you have two people. who

51:37

are committed themselves to taking care

51:39

of each other. Now you can't

51:41

do that exactly at the same

51:43

time, but one person takes care

51:45

of the other, so it moves

51:47

into hierarchy. You take turns, reciprocal,

51:49

taking care of each other. There's

51:51

nothing that is more juicy in

51:53

a relationship more fulfilling and nurturing

51:55

than believing you're the answer to

51:57

the other. There's nothing more fulfilling.

51:59

And if that is true... in

52:01

adulthood. How much is it true

52:03

when you're holding that baby? when

52:05

you're at dinner with your adolescent

52:07

and you realize that you are

52:09

the answer to a sense of

52:11

significance to belonging to a sense

52:13

of being seen from inside out

52:15

I don't think there is anything

52:17

more fulfilling in the world It

52:19

gets you to the core. You

52:21

understand your purpose in life, your

52:23

role in the whole scheme of

52:25

things, in the circle of life.

52:27

You finally got it in terms

52:29

of this. And it is, all

52:31

of a sudden, all the job

52:33

worries melt. They go into perspective,

52:35

what they are there, the insecurities

52:37

we feel in the world. It

52:39

doesn't matter what nationality you are.

52:41

It doesn't matter, you know, this

52:43

or that or whatever. It's something

52:45

foundational to it. our being is

52:47

to be the answer to another.

52:50

And that is what we have

52:52

as an opportunity, as a parent,

52:54

as a grandparent, to experience fulfillment

52:56

like none other can have. It

52:58

is an incredible sense of fulfillment

53:00

that we get to step into.

53:02

I just I love that so

53:04

so much I think we've lost

53:06

that and so many parents that

53:08

I see right we're stuck we're

53:10

reading so many books and we're

53:12

feeling so overwhelmed like it's this

53:14

job this task that we have

53:16

to do and we forget the

53:18

honor that it is and the

53:20

gift that it is to have

53:22

someone just fully depend on you

53:24

and see you as their whole

53:26

world and I think if we

53:28

can bring that back and we

53:30

can help parents see that is

53:32

a gift it's such an awesome

53:34

And I know people tease me

53:36

on the podcast because I always

53:38

talk about that. I always say,

53:40

oh, it's such a gift. But

53:42

it's starting to catch on a

53:44

little bit, which I like. And

53:46

I'll just leave it with one

53:48

last story of this, I think,

53:50

which perfectly illustrates the conditions being

53:52

right. My daughter, I have a

53:54

sensitive, sensitive girl, my middle child,

53:56

and you know, sensitive kids. There's

53:58

just some extra layers there. She

54:00

has not been able to... sleep

54:02

without me and I've been okay

54:04

with that. I have known the

54:06

time will come and she'll be

54:08

ready. So every night for about

54:11

the last five years I've been

54:13

with her until she's fallen to

54:15

sleep. It's fine. We have a

54:17

great routine. She falls sleep good,

54:19

sleeps through the night. One day

54:21

last week I'm putting her down,

54:23

we're did our routine, everything and

54:25

she goes, mom you can go

54:27

shower now. What do you mean

54:29

I can go shower? I lay

54:31

with you every night. And she's

54:33

like I want to try it

54:35

myself. And so I go and

54:37

I shower and I come and

54:39

I get out of the shower.

54:41

I'm crying because I'm like, oh,

54:43

she's five. Like I'm not ready

54:45

for this because it's been beautiful

54:47

for me too to take care

54:49

of her. And I get out

54:51

of the shower here a little

54:53

voice. Mama, can you actually come

54:55

back? I'm not ready. Yes. But

54:57

the construct of readiness that she

54:59

has inside. is a construct that's

55:01

very close to her own intuitions

55:03

that she will be able to

55:05

do it by herself, and so

55:07

that readiness. Odessa, the two and

55:09

a half year old, often says,

55:11

now, I will be ready when

55:13

I'm a little bit older, and

55:15

it's a beautiful construct because it

55:17

says where they're heading. They already

55:19

have this in line. They have

55:21

this idea that to be able

55:23

to do it. And so patience

55:25

and providing those conditions for it

55:27

to happen this way rather than

55:29

to be forced is beautiful. And

55:31

it goes back to, you know,

55:34

maybe my closing thing here to

55:36

leave with you. is that it

55:38

really comes down to trusting that

55:40

nature is benevolent, that it does

55:42

have this blueprint for the spontaneous

55:44

unfolding of potential. We can afford

55:46

to trust it. That is a

55:48

relieving thing for a parent because

55:50

it's not all up to us.

55:52

Can you think if getting a

55:54

baby out of the womb was

55:56

all up to us of just

55:58

how absolutely, first of all, how

56:00

dreadful it would be? and how

56:02

much we'd mess it up. You

56:04

know, it's an, all we do

56:06

is play midwife to that process,

56:08

including, you know, all the way

56:10

around. It is a process, it's

56:12

a spontaneous potential that needs to

56:14

be realized and that will be

56:16

there when conditions are conducive. So

56:18

that we can afford to trust

56:20

and that's an answer to our

56:22

own burnout. It's not all up

56:24

to us. Beautiful. Well, thank you

56:26

so, so much for coming on

56:28

today. It's been an honor to

56:30

talk to you. And I know

56:32

that this is going to be

56:34

incredibly eye-opening and helpful for everyone

56:36

listening. Is there a resource? I

56:38

mean, we've talked a lot about

56:40

hold on to your kids. Anything

56:42

else that you want to share

56:44

with listeners of where they can

56:46

find you? Well I got to

56:48

have my dream of my life

56:50

come true when I stopped teaching

56:52

university and retired from private practice

56:54

is I got to create courses

56:57

because that's what I love to

56:59

do the most. And so I've

57:01

created, well about 34 of those

57:03

courses are available through the Newfelt

57:05

Institute online. So that's where my

57:07

legacy is. Those are their courses

57:09

for parents, for professionals, for teachers.

57:11

They're all about making sense of

57:13

kids and all. about becoming the

57:15

answers our children need. And so

57:17

that's what I would refer you

57:19

to. That's my life's work. Anybody

57:21

can access them from anywhere in

57:23

the world. Some of them are

57:25

in up to eight languages. So

57:27

that's there. And of course if

57:29

you haven't read Hold on to

57:31

your kids, it's doing better than

57:33

it ever has. It became a

57:35

bestseller in Canada again on Amazon's

57:37

top 25 list. And so on

57:39

this this last year, so it's

57:41

it's more needed than ever. So

57:43

you think, oh, it's an old

57:45

book. Well, no, we've added a

57:47

chapter. Gabra Matte and I added

57:49

a chapter on peer orientation and

57:51

mental health for a new release

57:53

20th anniversary, but it speaks even

57:55

more to what is happening in

57:57

our world today than even at

57:59

did 20 years ago. Yeah it's

58:01

exceptional how your book 20 years

58:03

to now it's so so needed

58:05

and I mean we hear constantly

58:08

from people who've read it and

58:10

how life-changing it's been your courses

58:12

as well for professionals too. I

58:14

know we have a lot of

58:16

professionals who listen so definitely check

58:18

out the Newfeld Institute for

58:20

their courses as well. Thank you

58:22

so much. Well thanks for having me.

58:24

Of course. Hey friends, thank you

58:26

so much for listening to today's

58:29

episode. We are glad that you

58:31

were here if you enjoyed today's

58:33

episode and found it interesting We'd

58:35

really appreciate it if you'd leave

58:37

a rating in a review Scott

58:39

and I actually sit down together

58:41

and read them all a five-star

58:43

rating helps us share our podcast

58:45

and get these important messages out

58:47

there Thank you so much for

58:49

listening, and we can't wait to talk

58:52

to you again next time