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15% this week only. We

0:23

can't wait to help you. I

0:27

just have to set the stage

0:30

here because Scott comes into the

0:32

podcast studio, coffee and two little

0:34

baggies of cookies. Then he proceeds

0:37

to open the cookies and put

0:39

them straight on the table, no

0:41

plate. And now he's eating these

0:44

little cookies that I thought were

0:46

for our children when they

0:48

came to the office. Why would you

0:50

think that? I assumed they were a

0:52

children's snack. So anyway, if you

0:55

hear crunching, it's Scott eating. Lip-snacking.

0:57

Yeah. What did you say? I

0:59

don't know. I'm cold, okay? Our

1:01

office, the heat's not working today,

1:04

and so once again I'm complaining

1:06

about the cold, because it's very

1:08

chilly in here today. This morning

1:11

was, what, minus 20, which is

1:13

minus 4 Fahrenheit. Yeah, so it's

1:15

a bit much. It's a bit cold

1:18

today. Scott's eating cookies, no plate.

1:20

Okay. And... I did not want

1:22

to add anything extra into the

1:24

studio. What was I supposed

1:26

to do? I'm a hungry

1:28

boy, first of all. You

1:30

need not call yourself a

1:32

boy? Why? Like a hungry

1:34

little boy. Does it make

1:36

you feel weird to be married

1:39

to a hungry boy? I

1:41

cannot. With you. Welcome

1:48

to robot unicorn. We are so

1:50

glad that you are here. As

1:52

always, let's start the show with

1:55

a question from Scott. I'm

2:00

in a mood right now. I know. Scott's

2:02

in a mood and I'm a little

2:04

nervous about it. It's because the cold.

2:06

It's because we're freezing. So our

2:08

adrenaline is pumping to keep us

2:11

like... Maybe that's why. I feel

2:13

alive today versus other days. It's

2:15

so warm in here that I feel

2:17

like I'm so warm in here that

2:19

I feel like I'm just so warm

2:21

in here that I feel like I'm

2:23

just gonna hiberinate and I feel like

2:25

I'm just going to warm in here

2:28

that I feel like I'm a little... Were

2:30

they lying to us about

2:32

it? Oh, I see what you

2:34

did there. That was a

2:37

terrible segue. Today's episode

2:39

is on lying. And

2:41

I feel like Jess is

2:43

the perfect person to

2:45

talk on this side.

2:48

Okay, simmer down. Okay,

2:50

getting back into it. Today's

2:53

episode is on

2:56

lying. I won't

2:58

make any comments

3:01

now, but we

3:04

should really

3:07

just take

3:09

this seriously,

3:13

please. Why did we

3:16

originally choose this topic? I can't even

3:18

remember now why were people asking you

3:20

about this or this is a really

3:22

common question that people ask me is

3:24

But lying and I feel like it's

3:26

because well kids do lie. Yeah, and

3:28

that's actually developmentally appropriate normal But I

3:30

feel like it causes a lot of

3:32

panic and parents like as soon as

3:34

their kids start lying. They're like my

3:36

raising a sociopath. Why is my child

3:38

lying so much? So that's why we

3:40

wanted to just kind of get into

3:42

it and really answer some questions to

3:44

help parents understand lying better. Okay, so

3:46

let's just start off with the term

3:48

lying. How should parents first of all

3:51

understand or think about the term lying

3:53

versus, I don't know, like is there

3:55

another label for it if they're quote

3:58

unquote lying, but it's because that's... a

4:00

part of their stages of development? Is it

4:02

still the same thing? Because I feel like

4:04

we have this term lying, and kids obviously

4:06

will lie. That's just a part of them

4:08

growing up and testing boundaries. But it seems

4:11

like we use that term, but that could

4:13

mean that, I don't know, some politician is

4:15

lying to us, or a family member is

4:17

lied to us, like an adult versus when

4:19

a child... Why don't we start here?

4:21

There's different kinds of lies. So I

4:24

don't despise the word lying, but I

4:26

do think that there needs to be

4:28

more of an understanding as the different

4:30

types. So let's start with one type

4:32

of lying, quote unquote, which is your

4:35

child is lost in imagination and they

4:37

have a really hard time differentiating between

4:39

what they imagined or wished for to

4:41

happen or thought maybe could have happened

4:43

and what actually happened. So for example,

4:46

your child comes home from school and

4:48

they're like, today at school there was

4:50

a tiger and the tiger was roaring and

4:52

all the... kids were scared and you're listening

4:54

you're like there's no way there was a

4:57

tiger in your class that was roaring and

4:59

all the kids were scared right but your

5:01

child might say that and you might be

5:04

like well you're lying that's not true that

5:06

didn't happen today well what's actually happening in

5:08

that scenario is very common is that your

5:10

child is having a hard time differentiating between

5:13

imagination or what they wished for or what

5:15

they were scared of that could have potentially

5:17

happened and what actually happened in reality and

5:19

that's very common because that is true

5:22

for children, like they do have a

5:24

difficult time differentiating between their daydreams and

5:26

reality when they're reflecting back on what

5:28

happened. And as your child gets older

5:30

and again kind of reaches that five

5:32

to seven, five to nine shift, you

5:34

might see less of those type of

5:36

quote-unquote lies that are rooted in imagination.

5:39

The second type of lie, a child

5:41

will say, is a lie that is

5:43

your more traditional type of lie. So

5:45

this is a lie to get them

5:47

out of trouble or because they did

5:49

something that they weren't supposed to do.

5:51

And that type of lie actually takes

5:53

a lot of skill. And I don't

5:55

think we give kids enough credit. Because

5:57

when a child is finally able to...

6:00

like they ate a cookie and they weren't

6:02

supposed to, it means that they're able to

6:04

hold multiple truths at the same time in

6:06

their head. And what this means is they

6:08

can think, I ate the cookie and I

6:10

know I ate the cookie. And I don't

6:12

want my mom to know that I

6:14

ate the cookie because she's gonna get

6:16

me in trouble. So I'm actually going

6:19

to tell her I didn't eat the

6:21

cookie so that I don't get in

6:23

trouble. Like that's actually a lot of

6:25

brainwork for a child to do and

6:27

if your child is doing that, congratulations.

6:29

Your child's reached a new developmental milestone

6:31

and they're going to try that out

6:33

a little bit just to see what

6:35

happens. And so again, that's a kind

6:37

of lie that we kind of expect

6:39

and it usually starts like three to

6:41

four around that age. And I remember

6:43

our daughter specifically doing that, I

6:45

remember the time she was juicing

6:47

the chocolate. She was not supposed

6:49

to eat this chocolate Easter egg.

6:51

And then she did still eat

6:53

the chocolate Easter egg, but she

6:55

licked it instead of eating it.

6:57

So she's like, no, I didn't

7:00

eat it. Meanwhile, there's chocolate like

7:02

dripping off of her face. And

7:04

mommy, I didn't eat it. I'm

7:06

like, okay, well, what I'm seeing

7:08

is chocolate dripping off your face.

7:10

They can't, she was looking at turning it

7:12

into juice, which is the grossest thing. It

7:14

was nasty. But again in that situation, you

7:16

might think my child's lying to me, and

7:19

they are, I'm sure we'll talk about ways

7:21

to help them, but you want to

7:23

also recognize that this is a skill

7:25

that means that they're holding multiple truths

7:27

in their mind at the same time,

7:29

which is actually great. So we just want

7:31

to help them know that they can come

7:33

to us with the truth. So those are

7:35

I would say the two main kinds of

7:37

lies that we see in our kids. There

7:39

might be some other types of lies that

7:41

you might notice, but you do want to

7:43

ask yourself, where is this coming from? And

7:45

that will help you understand your child a

7:47

little bit more. Right. I feel like in

7:49

theory, that all sounds great, but then

7:51

when you actually have that happening to

7:53

you directly, there's kind of that, I

7:55

don't know, a feeling of betrayal almost

7:57

that your child is lying to you.

8:00

You provide everything for them, so why would

8:02

they ever feel the need to lie to

8:04

you? Right? So how do you make sure

8:06

you navigate that well as a parent? So

8:09

you don't break trust. Because I could foresee

8:11

you saying, depending on how you handle it,

8:13

could cause your child to lie to you

8:15

more or less, depending on how the situation

8:18

is handled. So it seems that what

8:20

we want to do is make sure

8:22

we're not breaking the trust with them.

8:24

And that they actually, eventually will... come

8:26

to you with the truth when it's

8:29

developmentally appropriate. But I know with our

8:31

daughters, I've been annoyed if they've lied

8:33

to me and I know distinctly, hey,

8:35

this is not the truth. Yeah, I

8:37

feel like for you it's a bigger trigger than

8:39

for me. For sure. I clearly remember when our

8:41

oldest started lying and I think I didn't like

8:43

pass this information on to you right away and

8:46

I do remember when she would lie to you

8:48

or tell you something that was not true. You

8:50

would get quite angry right away with her. And

8:52

what I was going to say is a tip

8:54

and then that's why I was saying about that.

8:56

It's like the worst thing that you could do

8:58

when the child lies to you. Is getting at

9:00

them and call them and call them a liar

9:02

and call them a liar and call them a

9:04

liar. you're getting angry at your child, so that

9:06

leads to fear, which leads to more lying.

9:09

B, you're labeling them a liar, so now

9:11

it's like, okay, well, I guess I'm a

9:13

liar. Meanwhile, let's say it was an imagination

9:15

lie. They still haven't differentiated in their head

9:17

if that actually happened or not, right? They

9:20

haven't even found that truth themselves. And if

9:22

it's a lie because they don't want to

9:24

get in trouble, well now they're getting in

9:26

trouble. So they're going to be more likely

9:28

to lie. So we do want to avoid

9:31

things like yelling at kids for lying, punishing

9:33

them for lying, and calling them liars. Now

9:35

this is like the most classic jest thing

9:37

I've ever said, but we want to

9:39

get curious about why they're lying. No

9:42

kidding. Yeah, surprise of the century.

9:44

Somehow get curious is the response

9:46

to everything. And that doesn't necessarily

9:48

mean, I just want to clarify

9:50

this because I had this a

9:52

few times recently. Getting curious does

9:54

not necessarily mean you're asking your

9:56

kid. Why are you lying to

9:58

me right now? I think when

10:01

I say get curious parents often

10:03

think, oh, that means I have

10:05

to start asking my kid a

10:07

whole bunch of questions. Well, if

10:09

you ask a three-year-old, why are

10:12

you lying to me? They're like,

10:14

I wasn't lying. And then you're

10:16

like, yeah, you were. There was

10:18

no tiger in your class. And

10:21

then the three-year-old's going to be

10:23

like, no, I wasn't. There was

10:25

a tiger. First about a time.

10:27

when our daughter lied to us

10:29

about having breakfast, and I had

10:31

said, have you had breakfast? And

10:34

she said, no. And then I

10:36

looked at the table and I

10:38

saw her bowl of cereal was

10:40

empty and I was like, yeah, you

10:42

did have breakfast and then she hammered

10:44

down on the lie. She's like, no,

10:46

I didn't eat breakfast. And in my

10:49

head, I was like, okay, you're clearly

10:51

lying to me, like, look, there's an

10:53

empty bowl of cereal. Why would you

10:55

do that? but I had to get

10:57

curious and so I thought to myself,

11:00

I wonder why she would lie to

11:02

me about eating breakfast. And the more

11:04

I thought about it, then I was

11:06

like, oh, you know what? we were planning

11:09

to go to Tim Hortons for breakfast, but

11:11

I think you had set out a cereal

11:13

for her. And she probably thinks that she's

11:15

not going to get Tim Hortons if she

11:18

already had breakfast. So I said to her,

11:20

I'm like, what are you hoping that we're

11:22

going to do this morning? She's like, well,

11:25

I really want to get whatever it was

11:27

from Tim Hortons, and... I was like, ah,

11:29

okay, so do you really want to get

11:31

a bagel? And that's why you told mummy

11:34

that you didn't eat your cereal? And then

11:36

she was, like, her big eyes. Yeah? Well,

11:38

I really want to have that. And I really

11:40

just... Daddy just gave me cereal and I just

11:43

ate it and then I forgot that we were

11:45

supposed to go to Tim Hortons and I like

11:47

I still really want my bagel and so in

11:49

that situation I got curious and I thought about

11:52

like how is this lie serving her and I

11:54

found out the answer and then we could talk

11:56

it through it and be like next time you

11:58

can still have your bagel. important, but you

12:00

have to tell me the truth first

12:02

when I ask you if you had

12:04

breakfast and then we had a whole

12:06

conversation about that. So that's like

12:09

one example of how you could

12:11

get curious without necessarily like demanding

12:13

your child tell you what happened.

12:15

Well I've even noticed because you briefly

12:17

mentioned the five to seven shift, I

12:20

have even noticed in our four-year-old who

12:22

is getting closer to five how at

12:24

the beginning of the school year there

12:26

was a lot more of those stories.

12:29

Imagination-based lies versus it seems like we

12:31

can trust more of what she says

12:33

now is actually the truth. So I

12:35

find that interesting that she's able to,

12:38

I don't know, it seems like something's

12:40

clicked in her mind that telling the

12:42

truth doesn't necessarily always mean that I

12:44

won't get the outcome I'm looking for

12:46

versus that seemed to be what the lying

12:48

was kind of about, was I'm looking

12:51

for a certain outcome to the situation

12:53

and therefore I'll tell the story that

12:55

gives that best outcome for me. Yeah,

12:57

so that's another type of lie,

12:59

I guess I didn't cover. It's

13:01

like a type of lie to

13:03

gain control over a situation, right?

13:05

So it might not necessarily be

13:07

out of fear, but more so

13:09

out of, well, I want to

13:11

control what happens next. So if

13:13

I lie about this, if I

13:15

lie about having breakfast, I know

13:17

I'll still get my second breakfast,

13:19

that's important. Right. So there's a

13:21

piece of control. Like, that's

13:23

huge. Like, that's incredible that. when

13:25

it comes to lying, if you

13:27

are not yelling at them for

13:30

lying and you're not using fear-based

13:32

punishments and all of that stuff,

13:34

right? It's not just gonna naturally

13:36

change. Can we get into that? So the

13:38

developmental role of lying,

13:40

because you've kind of briefly touched on

13:42

that a little bit, and I was

13:44

just wondering, at what age do you

13:46

think we start seeing lying happening? when

13:48

do they start moving away from

13:50

that? And then is there a

13:52

point at which, hey, this is

13:55

slightly concerning and we need like

13:57

a bit more help on this

13:59

situation? Yes. So, well, first of all,

14:01

your child has to be speaking before

14:03

they can really be lying. I think

14:05

I start to see it really in

14:07

preschoolers that age, so... two and a

14:10

half, like closer to three, maybe to

14:12

five, is really like a key age

14:14

for quote-unquote lying, especially those imagination lies

14:16

we see a lot more of, and

14:18

some of those fear-based and control-based lies,

14:20

like no I didn't eat the cookie.

14:22

We see more lying in children, I

14:24

mean this is anecdotal based on my

14:26

own practice, but I see more lying

14:29

in children who are afraid of their

14:31

parents. So if you're using a fear-based... discipline

14:33

like you're yelling at your kids or spanking

14:35

them, sending them away from you, you're going

14:37

to see more lying because they're trying to

14:40

avoid that happening. So again, that's how that

14:42

type of discipline can backfire you on you

14:44

a little bit because now your child's scared

14:46

of you, so they're not going to tell

14:49

you that they broke the lamp or whatever

14:51

because well they know what your reaction is

14:53

going to be. So I will say there's

14:55

a developmental piece, but there is a piece

14:58

that we do need to account for the

15:00

way that we parent that we parent them.

15:02

Well, I think as a kid, just

15:04

based on how I grew up, I

15:06

was quite deceptive because I was finding

15:08

ways to get away from punishment. Yeah,

15:10

it's interesting to me because I grew

15:12

up and my parents like honesty was

15:14

always a value and I remember so

15:16

clearly being young and like maybe having

15:18

this impulse to lie, but my parents

15:20

always being like, you know, in our

15:22

home we value honesty, like you can

15:25

always come to us with the truth.

15:27

So I never really felt this like

15:29

deep need to lie to my parents.

15:31

that's kind of stayed with me my

15:33

whole life. It's like I've never been

15:35

one to be like, I want to

15:37

lie and lying has always been a

15:39

hard one for me to understand. And

15:41

so when I saw our kids lying

15:43

for the first time, we'd be like,

15:46

what? Like we value truth telling in

15:48

this house. Like why are you doing

15:50

this? So it was really helpful for

15:52

me to understand that there is a

15:55

developmental appropriateness to lying and that that

15:57

will stop if we create that safe

15:59

space. or didn't have that connected relationship where

16:01

you felt like you could be truthful, it

16:04

makes sense that you would be more deceptive

16:06

and as a way to get your needs

16:08

met and also to avoid punishment. Okay, so

16:10

when do you think a parent should

16:13

be, you're saying, like, around preschool age,

16:15

specifically when they're able to start talking

16:17

and that's when you essentially start seeing

16:19

that they can lie, they have the

16:22

ability to lie? At this point, I'm

16:24

mostly wondering, when should a parent be

16:26

concerned about the lying? Because you've mentioned

16:29

to me that you get DMs about,

16:31

or even, I think we've had friends

16:33

come to us saying. my child is

16:36

lying. They've like told me this thing

16:38

and it looks like they're incredibly serious

16:40

about it as though it's the truth, but

16:42

I know for a fact they know it's

16:44

a lie. So is my child a sociopath?

16:46

Are they able to just lie to me

16:49

straight in the face and feel no remorse

16:51

for anything that they've just said to me?

16:53

So I'm less worried about your child

16:55

being a sociopath and what I am

16:57

more worried about is the disconnection in

17:00

your relationship. It's a disconnection in your

17:02

relationship. is every single podcast episode. But

17:04

I am more worried about the relationship,

17:06

especially as your kids hitting that. Like

17:09

four, still, I'm not super worried, it's

17:11

very typical, but as we're heading into

17:13

the five, six, seven, eight, nine, age,

17:15

and your child is intentionally lying to

17:17

you. Like, for example, you know they

17:20

broke something and they're looking you straight

17:22

in the eyes, and like, Daddy, I didn't break

17:24

it. And you're like, I know for a fact

17:26

you did. You did. That's telling me that. We're

17:28

maybe missing something in the relationship

17:30

that connection piece and not always

17:32

it could be something else That doesn't

17:35

feel very fair because I could still

17:37

see our almost eight-year-old lying to us

17:39

about breaking something like maybe not anymore

17:41

But I could still see it and

17:43

I think we have a great relationship

17:45

with her. She's passed that five to

17:47

seven shift so she's at that point

17:49

where she knows that she has to

17:51

be honest with us We're not going

17:53

to get upset with her, but it's

17:55

still an embarrassment piece or something like

17:57

that. Right, so there's multiple pieces to

17:59

go back to what I was saying, the

18:01

lying out of fear, I think we do

18:03

need to be mindful of that because I

18:06

do see that a lot, where parents, they

18:08

tend to gravitate more to yelling at their

18:10

kids and getting angry and they've called them

18:12

liars, you know, and I don't even, there's

18:14

no shame to parents because the

18:16

first time our child's are lying, we

18:18

did the same thing. Like we kind

18:20

of just like went into panic mode,

18:23

right? Yeah. So now they're at that

18:25

five to seven shift and they're. fearful

18:27

of their parents' response to whatever they

18:29

did. That's one reason why you might

18:32

still see the lines. The second one

18:34

might be their own internalized shame, right?

18:36

And I think that's what you're talking

18:38

about with our daughter, especially sensitive kids,

18:40

but all kids, like our oldest is

18:43

not highly sensitive, but like all children

18:45

have a sense of shame when they do

18:47

something wrong, and sometimes they need varying levels

18:49

of time in order to feel like they

18:51

can come forward. So I think sometimes to...

18:53

one of the issues that we have as

18:55

parents, it's like we want them to tell

18:57

us the truth like instantly. Like what happened,

18:59

tell me, tell me exactly what happened, but

19:01

maybe they haven't processed it in their own

19:03

head yet, what's happened, they haven't thought it

19:05

all through, and then they look like deer

19:07

in the headlight and then they're like, I

19:09

don't know, I didn't do it. So I

19:11

think that's another reason that kids can lie

19:13

is like that sense of shame or embarrassment

19:15

that they might feel. and maybe they're unsure

19:17

as to how you're going to respond. Like

19:19

our oldest, she knows that we're not going

19:21

to yell and scream at her, but she

19:23

might know that we would be disappointed or

19:25

frustrated, and even that can feel very, very

19:28

tricky, right? Some kids, it might just take

19:30

time, and their original thing they might tell

19:32

you is a lie. but if you give

19:34

them a little bit of time, they might

19:36

just come to you with the truth. I've

19:38

noticed that in a lot of kids I've

19:40

worked with, some of the coaching I've done

19:42

with parents is like, if you know that

19:44

they lied to you, so let's say they

19:46

broke the TV and they said they didn't

19:48

do it and you know, like no one

19:50

else would have broke the TV, give it

19:53

some space, don't call them a liar automatically,

19:55

give them some time, and then come back

19:57

and ask them again in a common and

19:59

ask. fight or flight as much, you

20:01

can have a conversation with them. So

20:03

sometimes just asking them again a little

20:05

bit later can be helpful. So there's

20:07

the fear, the lies that happen because

20:09

they're afraid of the parent. There's lies

20:11

that happen because of their own shame.

20:13

And then I think that there's lies

20:15

that happen in this five to seven

20:17

age because they are worried they won't get what

20:20

they want. So for example, our child. lied,

20:22

I guess she just omitted the truth

20:24

to us when we were out with

20:26

friends. Later, she told me that she

20:28

threw up that night because she wasn't

20:30

feeling good. But she said she didn't

20:32

tell me that she threw up that

20:34

night because she didn't tell me that

20:37

she threw up that night because she

20:39

didn't want to stop me that she

20:41

threw up that night because she didn't

20:43

want to stop hanging out with her

20:45

friend. She said she didn't tell me

20:47

that she threw up that night because

20:49

she didn't tell me that she threw

20:51

up. not because our child's bad or manipulative,

20:53

but because they're trying to do the thing

20:55

that they want to do. So I hope

20:58

that helps kind of explain, like I don't

21:00

think every single liar child does is rooted

21:02

in fear of their parents. I think that

21:04

there's multiple reasons, but I do think the

21:07

fear of the parents is one that we

21:09

need to ask ourselves if our child is

21:11

constantly lying. I see. That makes sense.

21:13

I just wanted to clarify that

21:15

because it kind of sounded like

21:18

you're saying everything comes back to

21:20

the relationship you have with your

21:22

child. And although true, we're still

21:24

humans and we have human feelings

21:26

and emotions, right? So then I

21:28

think you could have the greatest

21:30

relationship in the world with your

21:32

parent and still lie by omission

21:34

or deceive them for several other

21:36

reasons. Yes. Yeah, I think that's completely

21:38

fair. Lie to protect someone else.

21:40

from something too, right? Like, I

21:42

don't think it's just because you

21:45

have a terrible relationship. Yeah, I

21:47

think that's fair. Another thing that

21:49

I've been thinking about recently is

21:51

just because we had the holiday

21:53

season recently. I feel like there's

21:55

this contradiction where like Santa, Tooth

21:57

Ferry, or whatever, different things, somehow

21:59

we as... are allowed to tell our

22:01

kids these things because there's magic or

22:03

whatever. This good feeling that comes along

22:05

with them, but I just, I see

22:08

that as kind of a contradiction. I

22:10

feel like you've been wrestling with that

22:12

over the last few years. Yeah, it

22:14

doesn't seem very fair if I am

22:16

allowed to tell my children these things

22:19

that are blatant lies, but then the

22:21

expectations in return. They'd be truthful to

22:23

you. They have to be 100% truthful

22:25

100% of the time. I don't know.

22:27

How do you make sense of that

22:29

contradiction? I feel like I think Santa,

22:31

the tooth fairy, the other thing, the Easter

22:34

Bunny, they can be fun in imagination land.

22:36

And I know that people disagree with us

22:38

here. But for me, I'm like, hey, if

22:41

you want to connect with your child through

22:43

imagination and have them feel like a tooth

22:45

fairy is coming into the room to take

22:47

their tooth and write them a little note

22:50

and make it fun and make an imagination,

22:52

that's great. But as soon as your child

22:54

starts asking questions, I think if you want

22:56

to create a culture of honesty in your

22:59

home, I don't understand why we go so

23:01

deep into lying to our children to convince

23:03

them that it's real to make that magical.

23:05

because I think it can be

23:08

magical for kids just because it's

23:10

imagination. So, for example, I've recently told

23:12

our children that their toothbrushes are magical

23:14

wands that turn them into princesses. of

23:17

course they don't actually turn them into

23:19

princesses and the kids know that like

23:21

they're watching themselves in the mirror as

23:23

they brush their teeth but because it's

23:25

imagination they love it and they go

23:28

right along with it so now they're

23:30

thrilled they're asking me to brush their

23:32

teeth every night because the magical wand

23:34

that they brush their teeth with turns

23:37

them into a princess and then they

23:39

get to go to sleep in their

23:41

princess beds and it's the best thing they've

23:43

ever done if they started asking me questions

23:45

like mommy am I really turning into a

23:48

I'm not going to be like, yeah, you're

23:50

actually a princess. You know what I mean?

23:52

Like I feel like, have fun with imagination,

23:54

but also there is a point of honesty.

23:56

I feel like I've heard you talking about that

23:59

though, and I've heard. you say, let's

24:01

use our imaginations. Your toothbrushes

24:03

are magic wands. Like, so

24:05

you're literally telling them this

24:08

is using their imagination. Yeah,

24:10

and I would say the same thing about

24:12

the tooth fairy. Like, let's imagine tonight that

24:14

a magical tooth fairy is gonna come into

24:16

your room and take your tooth and float

24:19

it away. I wonder where the tooth fairy

24:21

would go. And we could make up a

24:23

whole world. And it would be so fun.

24:25

And they would love to pretend that we're

24:27

the tooth fairy. And they would love to

24:30

imagine that we float into their room and

24:32

take their tooth and it. You know what

24:34

I mean? I don't think it has to

24:36

be done in a lie. I think because

24:38

children are ruled by imagination and play,

24:40

you can just have fun with it

24:42

and still do it, but not telling

24:45

them like, hey, this is real, an

24:47

actual theory. You know what I mean?

24:49

I just feel like there's a balance.

24:51

So I don't think don't do it,

24:53

but I think you can do it

24:55

without lying. Yeah, does that make

24:57

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little kids this week. Yep. And

25:48

this again goes back to my final

25:50

question, which will be on why

25:52

I'm so, maybe not strict, but

25:54

very much against lying. We'll go

25:56

to that after. Okay. So we're

25:58

talking about... imagination. and lying, and

26:00

I just feel like often, especially with

26:03

her, I don't know, with her

26:05

oldest, she doesn't really do it

26:07

so much anymore, but with her

26:09

middle child, at the beginning of

26:11

the year, she was, let's say,

26:13

deliberately lying to us about situations

26:15

that were happening at school. But

26:17

I think part of that is

26:19

just because at that age, you

26:21

have this amazing creative brain, like

26:23

imagination and reality are so intertwined

26:25

with one another that... it maybe

26:27

even feels real for her. And

26:30

I think we often will default

26:32

to punishing or getting angry, whatever, because

26:34

they're lying to us about something that

26:36

happened at school. I think she talked

26:38

about one time, one of the kids

26:40

in her class ran into the parking

26:43

lot and all the teachers had to

26:45

go out and get the child to

26:47

bring her back and... And we check

26:49

in with the teachers, he does like,

26:51

no, that didn't happen. Yeah. And like,

26:53

it sounded to me like what actually

26:55

happened was just someone wasn't listening in

26:57

class and she doesn't love it when

27:00

kids don't listen to the teacher in

27:02

class. But she made up this whole

27:04

imaginative, like a long story to discuss

27:06

it. So I don't know, at what

27:08

point do you go from thinking like

27:10

these imaginative stories are kind of adorable?

27:12

because I feel like often with her

27:14

if you just let her talk she

27:16

comes up with the most adorable stories

27:18

even her dreams are about unicorns and

27:20

she hates waking up because she's dreaming

27:22

about unicorns and going from like that's

27:24

adorable that you've come up with this

27:27

whole thing too. Okay we need to

27:29

talk about this lying and you're not

27:31

being truthful with us and we need

27:33

to work on that. Yeah. I think it's definitely

27:35

a balance because especially with our very

27:37

creative children, like I think for example

27:39

the daughter you're referring to is highly

27:41

highly creative and I feel like her

27:43

brain is just constantly spinning with these

27:45

ideas and these stories and I remember

27:47

as a kid I had the same

27:49

thing and I'm still like that like

27:51

I'm still constantly thinking of stories and

27:53

ideas and as a kid sometimes it

27:55

would get me into trouble because I

27:58

would say a story of something that that

28:00

I think I convinced myself of was

28:02

true. And my parents were like, well,

28:04

that's not true, Jess, that never happened.

28:06

I'd be like, well, what? I thought it did. Did

28:08

I dream it? Like, I genuinely remember them

28:10

saying that and me being so confused, like,

28:12

I actually thought that did happen. And I

28:15

think that's the same thing with our daughter.

28:17

And so some things that we can do,

28:19

like helping them. know what reality is right

28:21

and be like oh that's a really cool

28:24

story if you know for sure for a

28:26

fact like it did not happen right right

28:28

well I found with her even though she's

28:30

for the story especially that one where the

28:32

child ran into the parking lot and a

28:35

whole bunch of teachers had to go out

28:37

and catch her yeah that sounded very real

28:39

to me So we had to confirm with

28:41

the teacher because it sounded so real. And

28:44

there's sometimes that you will have to confirm

28:46

with the teacher, right? I think with her

28:48

specifically, we had multiple instances where we're like,

28:50

we should probably just check in and make

28:52

sure that didn't happen or just try and

28:54

understand what actually happened. So there is a

28:56

piece that if you have a young child,

28:58

like it is okay to just check in

29:00

and make sure. And then if it isn't

29:03

real, maybe wondering with your child where that.

29:05

comes from because in that scenario when we

29:07

got to the root of it she's just

29:09

upset because there was a kid not listening

29:11

in her class so that made sense right

29:13

and she made up this whole story doesn't

29:15

make sense I don't know like it's still

29:17

hard for me to see the the connection

29:20

yeah like I kind of get it a

29:22

little bit but also in the same sense

29:24

that's a very out there story to tell

29:26

us about someone who just wasn't really listening.

29:28

In my head, and maybe this is

29:30

just me overanalyzing it, but in my

29:32

head when there's this big grandiose story,

29:34

and at the root of it is

29:36

like this kid's not listening, or there's

29:38

like something small at the root of

29:41

it, they're just trying to show you

29:43

how big that actually felt for them, right?

29:45

I think it was a big deal for

29:47

her to go into JK or whatever and

29:50

have some like if kids weren't listening because

29:52

she just... didn't have that before and

29:54

maybe wasn't used to it and I think

29:56

wanted to express to us like how that

29:58

felt for her and that it started out

30:00

in truth like I feel like it started

30:02

out like this child is running away okay that

30:04

was true but then the rest of it

30:07

got built on and built on and built

30:09

on because as she's telling the story to

30:11

her it's just getting bigger and bigger and

30:13

bigger and so I think if we can

30:15

as parents we can acknowledge what might be

30:17

true in the story it's like wow that

30:19

was a big story okay so what I'm

30:21

hearing is someone wasn't listening Do I have

30:23

that right? You know, so bring it back

30:25

to like the basic of the story and

30:27

see if you have that right or not.

30:29

And what I would always suggest to parents

30:32

is if you know what's true, just

30:34

name that. So don't try and, I think

30:36

a lot of times we try and catch

30:38

kids in the lie, right? Like we try

30:40

and get them to tell us the truth.

30:43

Same with like when our daughter had the

30:45

chocolate dripping down her face. I know for

30:47

a fact that she was eating the chocolate

30:49

that she was eating the chocolate. Don't waste

30:51

your time trying to go back and forth

30:54

getting them to tell you the truth because

30:56

they're just getting more and more confused. Name

30:58

what you know is true and then work

31:00

from there. And if you don't necessarily know

31:02

what's true, either, okay, I know that this

31:05

wasn't true, it's a story, you know, name

31:07

what you think might be the root of

31:09

the story, or just be like, yeah, wow.

31:11

That was a fascinating story about your day

31:13

today. And then sometimes what I'll try and

31:15

do is bring them back to reality by

31:17

asking them a question that I know they

31:19

can give me a truthful answer. Like who

31:22

was your teacher today? And then they tell

31:24

you their normal teacher. Oh, okay. And who

31:26

was the special student today? And then they

31:28

tell you that just to get their brain

31:30

back into truth telling mode and out of

31:32

imagination mode. Do you think there

31:34

are any unexpected like creative gifts

31:36

that we as parents should be

31:38

not necessarily helping foster when it

31:41

comes to lying? But I think

31:43

with our middle daughter, I don't

31:45

know, I just, even our oldest,

31:47

she did the same thing at

31:49

that age. How can we make

31:51

sure that the creative or imaginative

31:53

aspects of that remain? And we

31:55

don't crush that out of them while

31:57

we're also trying to name the truth.

32:00

Yeah, stop them from being dishonest

32:02

with us. I think there is

32:04

a lot of value in being

32:06

creative. So I don't want that

32:08

to be removed from their abilities.

32:10

I don't want them to all

32:12

of a sudden not be able

32:14

to be creative if we're trying

32:16

to say, no, you have to

32:18

be honest with us. You can't say

32:20

things that aren't true. Yeah. So if

32:22

it's a lie that's rooted in imagination,

32:25

right? So it's not like that I

32:27

stole the I stole the cookie lie.

32:29

and you can label the rest as story

32:31

or wow you really imagined a lot happened

32:34

today like you imagine that Tiger was roaring

32:36

in your class let's draw it out get

32:38

them to draw it out and I think

32:40

the main thing is and it goes back

32:42

to what I said the beginning if you

32:44

call them a liar and label them a

32:46

liar and get angry at them and say

32:49

you have to tell me the truth then

32:51

it might make them question themselves and kind

32:53

of crush that creativity out but if we

32:55

can just flip it name what you

32:57

know is true and help them find

32:59

the truth and label the rest as

33:01

an interesting imaginative story and allow them

33:03

to still think of stories and I

33:05

mean I think this is where like

33:07

the best writers come from right when

33:09

you're writing something even if you're writing

33:11

like a fiction novel there's something that's

33:13

true and then the rest is just

33:15

your imagination that kind of takes over right

33:17

you build a whole story about around one thing

33:20

that's true and so allow them to do that

33:22

get them to write if they're old enough

33:24

to write, get them to journal, get them

33:26

to make a play, get them to write

33:28

it in a poem. So still allow that

33:30

creative outlet while focusing on being like in

33:32

our family we also make sure we tell

33:34

the truth. I have found that amazing with

33:37

our oldest because over the holidays she wrote

33:39

a whole bunch of different plays that I

33:41

had to be involved in and she had

33:43

lines for me and scenes and she's setting

33:45

up the scenes and then she's also been

33:47

writing her own songs which like the lyrics

33:50

are surprisinglyly... pretty good for an seven, eight

33:52

year old. So that's the kind of thing

33:54

that I don't want to be crushed out

33:56

of, let's say, our middle daughter who maybe

33:58

does it a little more. than she

34:00

did, but I can tell there's

34:03

just inherently this creativity that's involved

34:05

and you can tell her brain

34:07

can create these immersive worlds that

34:10

there's a positive aspect to that

34:12

and then for me demanding not

34:14

demanding but like needing people to

34:16

be honest I just want to

34:18

make sure especially for myself that

34:21

I'm not whatever stopping that. part

34:23

of it. Yeah, I think just flipping it,

34:25

focusing on what you already know is true

34:27

of finding the truth, but then always still

34:29

giving an outlet for the creativity. I think

34:31

we never want to stop giving our kids

34:34

these creative outlets. That's why. When our oldest

34:36

asked if she could have a tablet on

34:38

the bus, they said, no, but you can

34:40

have a journal and a pen, you know,

34:42

and now plays have emerged and poems and

34:44

songs and... drawings and this and that. So

34:47

always is giving your children these outlets to

34:49

express the creativity and even things like the

34:51

tooth fairy or Santa, like partner with your

34:53

child in it, get them to imagine all

34:55

these worlds, get them to like think about

34:57

what they wish would happen. Like it's magical.

34:59

What do you think the tooth fairy looks like

35:01

and what do they do with the teeth? gross.

35:03

Well I remember when I found out the

35:05

tooth fairy wasn't real it was very early

35:07

on because I stayed awake so that I

35:10

could meet the tooth fairy and then surprise

35:12

surprise it was my dad. Pretty sure I

35:14

scared the shit out of him the one

35:16

night because it was very late and I

35:18

was not going to fall asleep until I

35:20

met that tooth fairy and then my dad

35:22

walks in to switch out and give me

35:24

a dollar or something and I was like

35:26

gotcha! and I think he and my brother

35:28

was in there too I think I freaked

35:31

him right out but then I got to

35:33

imagine he's like well now you know like

35:35

I'm working with the tooth fairy and

35:37

I clearly knew at that point that

35:39

my dad was the tooth fairy but

35:41

I got to that point that my

35:43

dad was the tooth fairy but I

35:45

got to visualize and I remember just

35:47

always smirking to myself as a child

35:49

because they would still pretend the tooth

35:51

fairy would come even though I knew

35:53

it was my dad magic is gone

35:55

just because your child knows it's you.

35:57

I think it can still be really

35:59

cool. magical and then you don't

36:01

break the trust. I kind of want

36:03

to close this off, but before we

36:06

do, I want to go back into

36:08

the question that I've been dying to

36:10

ask. So I grew up in a

36:12

family where I would say we were

36:14

more deceptive, we were trying to hide

36:16

what was actually going on internally in

36:18

the house, or even told to lie

36:20

to family and child services when they

36:22

came a couple times, because otherwise we'd

36:25

be taken away and all that. I

36:27

feel like even then I hate lying

36:29

and when I find someone lying to

36:31

me it's like the most I don't

36:33

know with our kids I'm able to

36:35

deal with it but I find with

36:37

especially with adults I'm very untrusting I

36:40

feel like most people are deceptive whether

36:42

they mean to be or not but

36:44

specifically the ones who are deceptive for

36:47

personal gain it like enrages me so

36:49

here's a question I don't think I've

36:51

ever asked you this what was it

36:54

like to be a child and be told to

36:56

lie? Well, I mean, the family and child

36:58

services thing was the one time where

37:00

I distinctly remember it, but I don't

37:02

remember what I was feeling at that.

37:04

I think it was more scared, like,

37:06

they're telling us, we're going to be

37:09

taken away. You're going to be taken

37:11

away. So I was more terrified by

37:13

that. So then I'm more inclined to

37:15

be like, yeah, everything's perfect here. And

37:17

it was just kind of ingrained that

37:19

I see don't tell anyone was going

37:22

on what's going on what's going on.

37:24

said, hey, this is actually what's going

37:26

on. People were like, there's no way

37:28

that's possible. There's no way that is true,

37:30

because I guess we hit it so well.

37:32

I remember even when we were dating

37:34

and coming into your home from a

37:36

place that was very honest, and then

37:38

now. being brought into like the lies

37:41

that your family had and being told

37:43

I had to keep these secrets, which

37:45

I'd never had to really keep a

37:47

secret from anyone before, even from my

37:49

own parents. And I remember how conflicting

37:51

that felt, right? Like you want to

37:53

be honest, you want to talk about

37:55

your experiences and you want to tell

37:57

people these really hard things that you're

37:59

going through. But then at the same time,

38:01

you're being told, like, you have to hide

38:03

it and you can't tell anyone. Because if

38:05

you do, it'll threaten the whole family system

38:08

and like everything will break down. And I

38:10

feel like for you, even into our marriage,

38:12

like the first few years, we still felt

38:14

we had to hold up those lies that

38:16

were a part of the family system. And

38:18

I think it was the most powerful thing

38:21

you ever did when you decided when that

38:23

time happened that you weren't going to do

38:25

that anymore. Right. Well, and I wonder

38:27

maybe it's my desire for truth everywhere

38:29

else is my way of like, I

38:32

don't know, not making up for it,

38:34

but just making sure that it exists

38:36

everywhere else. I think two things. I think

38:39

when you first started being honest,

38:41

that was one of the most

38:43

healing things that ever happened to you.

38:45

Yeah. And you started, like I remember

38:47

the first time you told a

38:50

friend like what actually happened in

38:52

your childhood. That was really a huge

38:54

deal for you at the time. I remember

38:56

specifically, you're like, I'm going to

38:58

go out for coffee with him, and I'm

39:00

going to tell him. I'm going to tell

39:02

him. And it was like the first time

39:04

you had ever really told anyone the truth.

39:06

So I feel like now you're the most

39:08

honest person I know, but I feel like

39:11

there's a piece of that, that like the

39:13

truth is very liberating for you. But

39:15

would you not agree though that

39:17

outside of my experiences from growing

39:19

up, I'm very honest about everything.

39:21

kind of to a fault at

39:23

times where I'm just, I would

39:25

prefer we just speak truthfully. Because

39:27

you don't have the people

39:29

pleaser aspect. You think that's all

39:31

it is? No, I think it's way

39:34

more than that. But I think that's

39:36

a difference between you and I. It's

39:38

like, not that I am prone to

39:41

lying, but I am more like, I'll try

39:43

and keep the peace, and I'll try and,

39:45

but you don't have that. It's like the,

39:47

that whole thing we've talked about you. This

39:49

is what I'm actually thinking, but I do

39:51

really like this thing, other thing about you.

39:53

It's just, tell me the thing that you

39:55

don't like, and let's just get on with

39:57

it, whether or not it hurts my feelings.

40:00

is sort of like, I would rather just know and

40:02

then we find a way to move past it. But

40:04

I wonder if you're a little more resilient

40:06

in terms of people hurting your feelings because

40:08

it's like you've been so deeply hurt

40:10

for so many years of your life that

40:13

it just doesn't affect you the same way?

40:15

The benefits of trauma, am I right? I feel

40:17

like you're not quite so fragile. But what

40:19

I was gonna say about like... in

40:21

terms of dealing with other adults lying

40:23

or even their kids lying, I feel

40:25

like for you, because you grew up

40:27

in a family that hid so much

40:29

and probably had to lie a lot

40:31

of the time, when you find out

40:33

that someone's been lying to you, it

40:35

automatically puts everything in their character in

40:38

question. Because then you're like, well,

40:40

if you're lying to me about, what else

40:42

are you lying to me about? And now I

40:44

can't trust you at all. Honestly. Honestly, the

40:46

thing is, some people are like that. that

40:48

everything they were saying was a lie. So

40:51

then you have enough of that. Like I

40:53

had that. You have enough evidence of that.

40:55

I had all the evidence growing up and

40:57

then I have a few instances of those

41:00

with other adults we've worked with or. So

41:02

it makes it very hard then to trust.

41:04

Yep. And I think your lack of trust

41:06

obviously comes from like not having that when

41:08

you were a kid, but then also like.

41:10

a lot of lies in your home and

41:12

like not knowing what was true or not

41:15

true. So of course you're going to have

41:17

a hard time trusting adults to begin with.

41:19

And then I think the second you get

41:21

like there's not that honesty there, it pretty

41:23

much breaks down like instantly. And I think

41:25

that's why in a way, I think we

41:27

have such good communication because well, A, I

41:29

feel like I'm a very honest person. But

41:31

B, I think you trust me because even

41:34

if the truth stops and I'm like,

41:36

hey Scott, I totally messed this thing

41:38

up or I'm so anxious. I'm pretty

41:40

sure I got 15 speeding tickets, which

41:42

didn't actually happen, but I was worried

41:44

about it. I'll just tell you. Yeah.

41:47

And I think that that's why you

41:49

were able to trust me and you

41:51

are learning to trust other people too.

41:53

Yeah. I was actually just having the

41:56

same comp. This is funny because I

41:58

feel like we didn't purposely. body

42:00

of mine recently. We were just

42:02

talking about lying and that whole,

42:04

that's funny actually. Yeah. I don't

42:06

think I meant to have that

42:09

conversation with him. I don't think we

42:11

meant this to get into like a deep

42:13

life chat about trust, but it makes

42:15

sense. No, but as I was

42:17

putting together all of these questions

42:19

related to a child lying, I

42:21

just remember as a child having

42:23

to lie and then a teacher with... one

42:26

of my siblings was like, some of these

42:28

things seem very odd, and then we had

42:30

family child services come out to us, and

42:32

then we were like literally directed to lie

42:35

to them. So I just, all of this

42:37

was just kind of coming up as I

42:39

was thinking of all these questions,

42:41

like. Why is it that I come

42:43

from a childhood of so much lying

42:45

to I feel like I am the

42:48

most honest person you could find? And

42:50

it probably puts people off just because

42:52

I am more direct about things. Yeah,

42:54

people aren't necessarily used to that. They're

42:56

used to a little more candy coding

42:58

and a little more. And I feel

43:01

like that's what I have learned from

43:03

you, especially in the last few years,

43:05

is that that doesn't always help the

43:07

situation, right? Not that I was lying,

43:09

but I think sometimes people pleasing can

43:12

kind of teeter into that territory of

43:14

being not fully truthful in order to

43:16

keep the peace, right? People are worried

43:18

about, which I mean is fair enough,

43:20

but people are worried about others getting

43:22

upset if you tell them the truth.

43:24

Yeah. And you learn over time, at

43:27

least I feel like this has been

43:29

a real eye-opener for me over the

43:31

last few years. that honesty is just

43:33

so much better. Like it's better to

43:35

just have an honest conversation and say

43:38

like, hey, I'm feeling such this way

43:40

about something and then deal with it

43:42

back and forth, then try and people

43:44

please and the other person's people pleasing

43:46

and then you get into this mess

43:49

where no one's actually being fully truthful.

43:51

Anyway, that's like lying as an adult.

43:53

I think it often comes in the

43:55

form of people pleasing and pretending

43:57

things are okay when it's not.

44:00

version of yourself. I feel like you

44:02

know the cost and you know internally

44:04

in your body how terrible it feels

44:06

to do that because as a kid

44:08

you had to pretend to be one

44:10

way and and I think this is

44:12

your way of never getting back in

44:14

that scenario. Yeah. And that's why you're

44:17

such an honest person and that's why

44:19

sometimes your honesty gets you into not

44:21

necessarily into trouble but maybe hit someone

44:23

the wrong way because people just aren't

44:25

used to that. I feel like

44:27

for us, especially, let's say building

44:29

this business, we're trying to surround

44:31

ourselves with people that aren't going

44:33

to just be telling us something

44:35

we want to hear. We're trying

44:37

to make sure we're working with

44:39

honest people. We're trying to be

44:41

friends with honest people. And I

44:44

don't want to be friends with

44:46

honest people. And I don't want to

44:48

stick up across like you're mean, which you're

44:50

not. No, I just like honesty. Is that

44:52

a mean thing? No. No, like I feel

44:54

like it could be like... I feel like, for

44:56

example, if you're having a bad day and your

44:59

friend texts you, how are you feeling? I feel

45:01

like you would just tell them straight up, like,

45:03

this is what happened today. Like, there's no, like,

45:05

yeah, no, it's good. Or, like, beating around the

45:08

bushel wasn't the best. Like, you'd just be like,

45:10

yeah, today sucked because of X, Y, and Z.

45:12

Or whatever. Like, I just feel like. And people

45:14

sometimes like, oh, I wasn't expecting you to actually

45:17

answer that. That's more what we're talking about than

45:19

you just being like, I hate your

45:21

sweater. Like, that's not the type

45:23

of honesty we're talking about. Well,

45:25

although you would probably say that to

45:27

me if you didn't like my sweater, which,

45:30

by the way, do you like my new

45:32

sweater? Does it lie to you? Do you

45:34

like my new sweater? The reality is, if

45:36

you buy something new and you ask, what

45:38

is your opinion on this? I think it

45:40

works. Yeah. And often you don't love the

45:42

answer. No. Just saying. Sometimes I have to

45:44

tell Scott that I don't want his honest

45:47

feedback. Yeah, sometimes Jess has to tell

45:49

me, give me the feedback that I want to

45:51

hear in this moment. Yeah. And then I'm, that's

45:53

what I'll say if I actually don't want

45:55

to hear his honest opinion because I've

45:57

already made up my mind on something.

46:00

Anyway, we got deep. Yeah, anyways, I

46:02

just wanted to end with that

46:04

because as I was putting together

46:06

these questions, like I said, I

46:08

found it very interesting that the

46:10

childhood that I came from and

46:12

whatever, everything that I grew up with,

46:14

I am very much, I don't know, I feel

46:16

like the opposite of, so. Yeah, I mean, yeah,

46:18

it's a protective factor. I think it

46:21

makes a lot of sense. And then

46:23

on top of that, just seeing our

46:25

kids and wanting to make sure that

46:27

they're honest, well, ensuring at the same

46:29

time they are as creative as they

46:31

can be, because I feel like creativity

46:34

is one of the most important things

46:36

in life, makes life enjoyable, being creative.

46:38

Yeah, and I feel like we didn't

46:40

get into too many tips on how

46:42

to deal with lying today, which is

46:44

fine. Like we could go over that

46:46

another episode maybe. We also do cover

46:48

that in the parenting little kids course.

46:51

specifically on lying because I know I

46:53

get a lot of questions on it.

46:55

Okay, sounds good. All right, well, thanks

46:57

for tuning in today and definitely let

46:59

us know if you have any comments

47:01

or questions. I feel like we could

47:03

go a whole other episode just on

47:05

like the deeper trauma type stuff that

47:07

happens with lying. Sounds enthralling.

47:10

I'm sure. People love to hear

47:12

about your trauma. No, just

47:14

kidding. But... Oh, about my trauma?

47:16

No, no. Not just your

47:18

trauma. All right, we'll talk to

47:20

you again next week. Hey friends,

47:23

thank you so much for listening

47:25

to today's episode. We are glad

47:27

that you were here. If you

47:29

enjoyed today's episode and found it

47:31

interesting, we'd really appreciate it if

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you'd leave a rating and a

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review. Scott and I actually sit

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down together and read them all.

47:39

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47:45

much for listening and we can't wait

47:47

to talk to you again next time.