0:02

Today's episode is brought to

0:04

you by Easy Stars, an

0:06

innovative app at the intersection

0:08

of astrology and technology. If you've

0:11

ever wondered why you are the

0:13

way you are, how to unlock

0:15

your full potential or even the

0:18

best time to make a big

0:20

life move, Easy Stars has the

0:22

answers. At the heart of the

0:25

app is Pixie, your AI astrologer

0:27

and personal cosmic guide. Pixie delivers

0:30

daily insights tailored to your astrological

0:32

chart, whether it's guidance on well-being

0:34

or tips for better decision-making.

0:36

And if relationships are

0:39

on your mind, the

0:41

EasyStar's AI-powered compatibility reports

0:43

can help you navigate

0:45

love, friendships, and even

0:47

workplace dynamics. So whether

0:49

you're planning a trip

0:51

with your Leo boyfriend,

0:53

wondering when to make

0:55

that big investment or

0:57

just looking for a

0:59

little cosmic clarity, Easy

1:01

Stars has your back.

1:03

If you're curious to

1:05

see how the stars

1:08

can help you

1:11

become your best

1:13

self, download Easy

1:15

Stars today and

1:18

enjoy a free

1:20

one-month subscription. all

1:23

around love, relationships

1:25

and dating. This

1:27

is letters to

1:30

Venus. Venus is

1:32

the goddess of

1:34

love. The celestial

1:37

muse of beauty, desire

1:39

and connection. She teaches

1:41

us that love is

1:43

not just something we

1:45

seek, it is something

1:47

we embody. In

1:53

this first episode I am joined

1:56

by renowned philosopher, author and

1:58

the founder of... the School

2:00

of Life, Alan De Butter.

2:02

We discuss how the evolution

2:04

of love and relationships has

2:06

shaped modern dating. And Allah

2:08

shares his thoughts on the

2:10

importance of emotional intelligence, the

2:12

influence of technology on connection,

2:15

and the challenges of dating

2:17

in the digital age. In this episode

2:19

we cover the need for

2:21

honesty and regular communication in

2:24

relationships, how childhood experiences shape

2:26

our expectations in love, and

2:28

the role of attachment styles

2:30

and why they matter early

2:33

in dating, why love must

2:35

be flexible and regularly negotiated

2:37

in long-term partnerships. This episode

2:39

is packed with practical advice

2:42

and profound wisdom that will

2:44

leave you thinking about love

2:46

and connection. in a whole

2:48

new way. I hope you enjoy.

2:51

Welcome to the show. Thank

2:53

you. I was actually, I

2:55

was a bit nervous about

2:57

this one because you are

3:00

a big name that I can't

3:02

pronounce for now. But I also,

3:04

I feel like you're super

3:06

easy to talk to, so

3:09

I was also very excited

3:11

about this. Good. I'm easy

3:13

to talk to. And for the audience

3:16

that might not be familiar with your work,

3:18

would you be able to share a little

3:20

bit about who you are and how you

3:22

got into the work you do? Yes.

3:24

So I've been a writer for most

3:26

of my professional life and the topics

3:28

that really interest me are love, relationships,

3:31

psychology, you know, how we work, how

3:33

we don't work, why we suffer. And

3:35

then about 10 years ago I started

3:37

something called the School of Life, which

3:39

is an organization devoted to emotional well-being.

3:41

and we do lots of things, we've

3:44

got a YouTube channel and we put

3:46

out lots of content and all kinds

3:48

of things. We're kind of home for

3:50

emotional intelligence on a good

3:52

day. I feel like the School of Life was

3:55

so ahead of its time. How did you

3:57

decide that that's what you wanted

3:59

to do? create? I just wanted to

4:01

not be alone with all the stuff

4:03

that I care about. I wanted a

4:06

team. So on a personal level. Yes.

4:08

I mean, there's a sort of thing

4:10

that if you've got something interesting to

4:12

say you should write a book, you

4:14

know, and that should be it. And

4:16

I always thought, well, why couldn't a

4:19

book also be a community, a home,

4:21

a group of people pushing in a

4:23

certain direction, you know, a brand, if

4:25

you like? And so we're kind of

4:27

brand around emotional intelligence. But yeah, I

4:30

think, you know, also technology

4:32

is making it ever easier for people

4:34

to do that. You know, you could

4:36

have your own little studio, your own

4:38

little broadcasting hub, etc. which is fantastic.

4:41

But do you think that that, it's

4:43

not quite the same as actual human

4:45

connections sitting down? Yes, I mean we

4:47

also do retreats, we also, you know,

4:50

take people away, we, I agree, you

4:52

know, particularly post-covid, it's lovely for people

4:54

to meet in the flesh and we're

4:57

ramping up that side of things as

4:59

well. So, yes, I think I find

5:01

that people, what people are longing for

5:04

is two things, understanding, understanding themselves and

5:06

others, and then also connection. You know,

5:08

it's, they're slightly different things. Understanding you,

5:10

you could get in your bedroom looking

5:13

at a film or reading a book,

5:15

connection you've got to get out and,

5:17

you know, actually, um, say hello. And

5:19

do you feel like we've got the balance

5:22

right at the moment or not so

5:24

much? In society? Yeah. No, I mean,

5:26

it's striking how whenever sort of architects,

5:28

planners, politicians talk about community spaces, what

5:30

they really mean is places where there

5:32

are lots of people. What they tend

5:34

not to mean is places where lots

5:36

of people. What they tend not to

5:38

mean is places where lots of people

5:40

can talk to one another, let alone

5:42

discover meaningful things about one another. Do

5:44

you know what I mean? I mean,

5:46

in an average sort of piazza, in

5:48

an English town, you're not going to

5:50

go up to a stranger and have

5:52

anything like a meaningful conversation on the planet.

5:54

But there's a big difference between that and

5:56

any kind of deeper connection. And it's a

5:58

pity because if you... give people any sort

6:01

of encouragement, they will go for it.

6:03

You know, they will deepen things. And create the

6:05

space for it. Yeah, but you need a little

6:07

bit of encouragement. I mean, you know,

6:09

we know on trains you got a

6:12

quiet carriage and when it says quiet.

6:14

on a good day people are quiet.

6:16

But if you had, you know, the

6:18

chatty carriage, people might chat or the

6:21

talk to a stranger carriage, people would,

6:23

you know, whatever's on the, whatever's on

6:25

the billboard, people will tend to follow.

6:27

But public space is generally silent space,

6:30

anonymous space. Especially in

6:32

cities like London, you know, where everyone

6:34

on the commute is just

6:36

completely silent, no one's even

6:39

making eye contact. there are reasons why

6:41

people don't want to be stalked people

6:43

don't want to be bothered people don't

6:45

want to be intruded upon you know

6:47

there is such a thing as intrusion

6:49

of course there is and so but

6:51

it's it's really a balance between a

6:53

fear of intrusion and a fear of

6:55

you know dying completely alone and I

6:57

think we're more towards you know the latter

6:59

danger we've forgotten but I would say that we're

7:01

we're a lot better at the understanding

7:03

piece yes I think we are

7:06

hugely building up a vocabulary of

7:08

terms to describe some of the

7:10

crazy stuff that we do and

7:13

that other people do. And I

7:15

think that psychotherapies had a

7:17

really big role in that, in

7:20

equipping people with words. I do

7:22

have a bit of a quibble with

7:24

some of the way in which that

7:26

goes that you can... you can sometimes

7:29

feel sometimes that by the time you've

7:31

excluded every last red flag person, is

7:33

a narcissist, is a narcissist, you know,

7:35

is borderline, etc. And these are words

7:38

that have come from the clinic. And

7:40

you know, I just think they get

7:42

wielded around a bit too much. And

7:44

I think what I mean by

7:46

too much is it can feel

7:49

sometimes that by the time you've

7:51

excluded every last red flag person

7:53

from your life. It's fantastic, you'll

7:56

have no trouble, but you'll

7:58

be completely alone. We all,

8:00

I mean, human beings are all

8:02

slightly nutty. And, you know, and

8:04

I mean that, benevolently, you included,

8:06

me included, we all are struggling

8:08

with things. And so, you know,

8:10

one's always right if you say so

8:12

and so has got this or got

8:14

that whatever, you know, probably you're right,

8:16

but is it any use pointing it out?

8:19

I mean, you know, imagine a world in

8:21

which what we're trying really to do is

8:23

to manage our imperfections rather than just point

8:25

them out. We're trying to work out how

8:27

to live among imperfections, our own and those

8:30

of others, rather than simply going, that one's

8:32

got an imperfection. I mean, think of, think

8:34

of us with our physical appearance, right? Imagine

8:36

if there was an industry devoted to pointing

8:38

out how ugly most people are. And most

8:40

people, you know, me included me included. Oh,

8:42

that one's got saggy. Oh, that one's eyes are

8:45

a bit thing. Oh, look, you've seen that. It's

8:47

a bit droopy, it's a bit droopy, whatever it.

8:49

Whatever it. Whatever it. Whatever it. Whatever it. We

8:51

think that was kind of, not just mean, but

8:54

also a bit senseless, what's the point? Because we

8:56

think, well, they can't really change, and it just

8:58

is what it is. And so it's just inflaming

9:00

people to get angry about something. And the same

9:03

thing could apply at points to the psychological sphere,

9:05

where again, we take a bit too much to

9:07

line, go, oh, look, that one's got a thing,

9:09

the borderline thing going on. It's like, well, okay,

9:12

fine, what have you got going on?

9:14

What have we all got going on?

9:16

We're all struggling with things. Well, I

9:18

also think because the focus is

9:20

often on the other, especially in

9:22

the context of dating in relationships,

9:24

we're not we're not inspecting our

9:26

own behaviors quite as much as

9:29

we are trying to give the other person

9:31

some sort of... disorder. That's

9:33

right, that's right. We're labelling the other

9:35

one as mad and not just mad

9:37

because that's too casual. We're giving them

9:40

a clinical description of their pathologies and

9:42

then saying, you know, good riddance and

9:44

we're free now. And you know, there's

9:46

that sort of narrative of liberation, that

9:48

heady moment of liberation. It's like you

9:50

discover that your partner is it, da,

9:53

da, da, and then you're going to

9:55

push them out and now you're free

9:57

and you can value yourself and you

9:59

have... worth, and you can love

10:01

yourself. Then what? After that heady

10:04

moment, what? We're then stuck in

10:06

a world in which most people

10:08

are laboring under various kinds of

10:11

pathological behavior. We include it. So

10:13

that's what we're dealing with. And

10:15

I think that's what. That's the

10:18

myth that, you know, Instagram therapy

10:20

doesn't want us to listen to.

10:23

And in that, because I really want

10:25

us to dive into relationships and love,

10:27

and if we can kind of take

10:29

it a little bit back, because the

10:31

world that we're living in now and

10:34

the way that we are dating and

10:36

interacting with one another is so different

10:38

from the way that it used to

10:40

be, not only because of technology, but

10:43

also because of what we're looking for

10:45

in relationships. feel this huge amount of

10:47

pressure now to find the right person,

10:49

but we have all of this stuff

10:51

going on and we also don't recognise

10:53

that we're quite with the first in

10:56

doing it in many ways. Yes, that's

10:58

right. I mean we can feel compassion

11:00

for ourselves for the scale of our

11:02

ambitions and also... the lack of preparation

11:04

for them. You know, we've set up

11:06

expectations and haven't really built the structure

11:08

behind those expectations which could help us

11:10

to deliver on them. So just to

11:12

sketch it, I mean, look, for most

11:14

of human history, people didn't marry for

11:16

love. They married for convenience, for dynastic

11:18

reasons because, you know, your field was

11:20

next to their field or they had

11:22

a plough and you had an ox

11:24

and that was a good match. So

11:26

it was really irrespective respective of the

11:28

emotions of the participants. that obviously had

11:30

all sorts of problems and a lot

11:33

of art and literature is pointing out

11:35

the tensions of that. Your heart is

11:37

in one place, but necessity in societies

11:40

and another. And it's really because of

11:42

this unhappiness that the modern world, which

11:44

is, you know, say 200 years old,

11:46

arrives at what we now call romantic

11:49

love, which is a very different way

11:51

of approaching relationships. And that's the idea

11:53

that you should follow broadly your heart,

11:55

your emotions, your feelings, your feelings, your

11:58

feelings shouldn't be interrogated to much.

12:00

It's wherever your heart takes you.

12:02

If your heart takes you to

12:04

this person, well, that's the person

12:06

you should marry. And so the

12:08

narrative becomes one about, you know,

12:10

sudden transports of love. The crush

12:12

becomes elevated something. You know, you

12:15

see somebody on a train and

12:17

then you have to follow them

12:19

and, you know, and they could

12:21

be your destiny, etc. So a

12:23

tremendous reverence for a kind of

12:25

intuition, intuition will lead you to

12:27

something amazing. And that's the way

12:29

we've been doing it for a while. Which

12:32

is beautiful and romantic. It's beautiful

12:34

and romantic. I've got a problem

12:36

with the word romantic. Everything that's

12:38

romantic is not romantic. By that

12:40

I mean... What do you mean

12:42

by that? If we redefine romantic

12:45

as actually conducive to love, conducive

12:47

to the maintenance and success of

12:49

love, most things we consider romantic

12:51

are not romantic. Like what? Well, for

12:53

example, you know, if you sat down

12:55

with a lover... that you were thinking

12:58

of getting together with, and you started

13:00

discussing your finances. You started saying, okay,

13:02

well, how much money are we going

13:04

to need to live? What do you

13:07

make? What do I make? How's that

13:09

going to work? This would immediately be

13:11

labelled an unromantic conversation, because the kind

13:13

of the ideology which we say lunder

13:16

is money's unromantic and feeling wins everything.

13:18

So, you know, to stop, you know,

13:20

Romeo and Juliet from, you know, doing

13:22

whatever they want to do and asking

13:25

them, you know, what's your income is

13:27

highly strange. I mean, you pick this

13:29

up in the novels of Jane Austin.

13:31

Jane Austin's writing at a really interesting

13:33

time when, you know, the oldest system

13:35

of dating and marriage is eroding. There's

13:38

the beginnings of the love way of

13:40

doing it. And Austin is literally kind

13:42

of poised between the two. And so

13:44

she's always interested in telling her readersers

13:46

how much her characters earn. You know,

13:48

she literally, and that says, you know,

13:51

so and so, you know, he was

13:53

worth whatever it is, you know, 20

13:55

pounds a year or, you know, old

13:57

money. And that's for her a very

13:59

vital thing. And it's not that she's

14:01

arguing that people should marry for

14:03

money, she's arguing quite sensibly that

14:05

to ignore totally the financial basis

14:08

of a relationship is foolish. Those

14:10

who only pay attention to money

14:12

also get into trouble. So in

14:14

her novels, anyone who marries for

14:16

money is in trouble, but anyone

14:18

who doesn't look at money is

14:20

also in trouble. So it's a

14:23

very interesting thing. And we would

14:25

consider Austin... a bit unromantic. I

14:27

don't think she's unromantic at all.

14:29

She's really interested in how a

14:31

relationship succeed and one of the

14:33

ways in which they succeed is

14:35

if someone's worrying about the money.

14:38

That's one of the, do you

14:40

see what I mean about unromantic

14:42

things that are actually quite important.

14:44

Another thing, you know, that seems

14:46

quite unromantic is psychology, psychological background.

14:48

I mean... if on an early

14:50

dinner date you started probing at

14:52

the attachment style of your partner.

14:55

It would be quite effective in

14:57

you know knowing what's going to

14:59

come up. It'd be rather interesting

15:01

again that could be thought of

15:03

as you know you interviewing me

15:05

or you know this is this

15:07

does it sound very romantic but

15:10

but these things are cautionary it

15:12

doesn't sound very romantic to work

15:14

out a rotor for who's going

15:16

to clean the bathroom but once

15:18

you get that done a lot

15:20

of good things can flow and

15:22

you know so things like routine

15:25

routine money, psychological exploration, all put

15:27

in the unromantic cat, but actually

15:29

these things are quite useful at

15:31

fostering love. I understand that, but

15:33

if we're looking at the difference

15:35

between falling in love and being

15:37

in love, because I think they

15:39

are quite different things, and because

15:42

everything tends to be quite feeling

15:44

based at the moment in terms

15:46

of how we meet people going

15:48

with our heart, all the things

15:50

that you said, what do you

15:52

think we are of actually dating

15:54

and getting someone... to fall in

15:57

love with the EU, fall in

15:59

love with them, and then we'll

16:01

kind of go into the more

16:03

maintenance around a relationship because they

16:05

feel like they're very different things.

16:07

Yeah, I mean, look, it's not

16:09

just a friendship, a relationship, not

16:12

just friendships. There is a biological

16:14

sexual... basis to them, unfortunately, because

16:16

it means that we're trying to

16:18

do, you know, some of the

16:20

reasons why relationships are so complicated

16:22

is we're trying to do so

16:24

many things in them. You know,

16:27

the best friend, the sexual partner,

16:29

the, you know, the child, razor,

16:31

the comfort, or blah, blah, blah,

16:33

blah. On and on, on the

16:35

list goes. But I think that

16:37

even if we accept, okay, we're

16:39

going to need a complicated candidate,

16:41

the physical... does have a role

16:44

that I think we ignore at

16:46

our peril. I mean, sometimes people

16:48

try and say, I'm an intelligent

16:50

person. I'm not interested in looks

16:52

or I'm not going to think

16:54

about those things. Those are things

16:56

that things are lower things. I'm

16:59

just not going to bother. And

17:01

I can understand the sentiment, you

17:03

know, in a way who wants

17:05

to think about that. That's very,

17:07

it's very counter to our higher

17:09

aspirations, which is that we should

17:11

give everybody their due as, you

17:14

know. mental beings and we shouldn't

17:16

consider really their physical dimensions or

17:18

how we feel about the physical

17:20

dimensions. But I think that's rather

17:22

like saying, you know, sleep is

17:24

silly. Why would we sleep? Why

17:26

would we bother sleeping? It's like,

17:28

well, you know, try that at

17:31

your peril. You're going to be

17:33

consequences or someone, you know, who

17:35

climbs a mountain and says, you

17:37

know, could choose for the birds.

17:39

I don't really, you know, I

17:41

don't need to bother. So we

17:43

can be foolhardy in... ignoring things.

17:46

So yes, we exist partly as

17:48

these biological embodied creatures and we

17:50

shouldn't and can't ignore that. And

17:52

it narrows our room for maneuver.

17:54

It really does. It means that,

17:56

you know, show somebody 100 candidates

17:58

and simply... at the sort of

18:01

biological physical level. They'll rule out,

18:03

they have to rule out a

18:05

huge number of those for reasons

18:07

that defy conscious understanding. I don't

18:09

know why this person is not

18:11

interesting to me. I just, I

18:13

can't tell. Now, there is also

18:15

a kind of therapeutic, psychotherapeutic sort

18:18

of explanation behind this, which is

18:20

that, I mean... The story goes

18:22

that the way in which we

18:24

love as adults is always following

18:26

in the tracks laid down by

18:28

experiences in childhood. So we first

18:30

learn about love as children. And

18:33

depending on how that experience of

18:35

love goes, so our approach to

18:37

adult love will be shaped one

18:39

way or another. The narrative that

18:41

we have is the more that

18:43

early love is tempestuous, difficult, frustrating,

18:45

unkind, in some way. falls short

18:48

of our hopes, the more we'll

18:50

approach adult love with fear, that

18:52

we will think, I won't just

18:54

be repeating something nice, I might

18:56

be repeating something painful. And that

18:58

explains a really puzzling thing about

19:00

love, which is that though we

19:03

think of ourselves collectively as a

19:05

species always looking for love, I'm

19:07

looking for more love, the songs

19:09

are about wanting love, etc. The

19:11

truth is much more complicated. a

19:13

big part of many, many of

19:15

us is devoted to pushing love

19:17

away. It's kind of odd, right?

19:20

We're as interested in not having

19:22

love as we are in having

19:24

love. It's too much of a

19:26

coincidence that there are so many

19:28

people whose relationships collapse, who are

19:30

on their own, who, as it

19:32

were, can't find a partner. it

19:35

could all seem like a sad

19:37

coincidence of people who desperately want

19:39

love and it just collapsed. Very

19:41

often if you scratch below the

19:43

surface what you'll find is people

19:45

who have been scarred by love

19:47

normally in childhood and in adulthood

19:50

have serious mixed feelings about making

19:52

love work. On the one hand

19:54

they'd love to be close on

19:56

the other. closeness freaks them out.

19:58

They want someone in their life,

20:00

at the same time they feel

20:02

engulfed if somebody is too present.

20:04

And so, you know, we're not

20:07

understanding love. if we simply see

20:09

ourselves as creatures who want to

20:11

get ever closer to someone else.

20:13

We are as interested in maintaining

20:15

boundaries and distance between ourselves and

20:17

others. And almost always, the more

20:19

childhood was arduous and difficult, the

20:22

more distance we're going to need

20:24

from our adult partners in order

20:26

to feel safe. And this weirdo

20:28

we're going into attachment theory. Or

20:30

do you feel that that's quite

20:32

universal for human beings that as

20:34

much as we want and crave

20:37

that connection, we're also in different

20:39

ways going to push it away?

20:41

Look attachment theories was one of

20:43

the great developments of 20th century

20:45

psychology is hugely useful and it's

20:47

now spread out into the world

20:49

and you know people on dinner

20:52

dates will talk about their attachment

20:54

styles and thank goodness. I mean

20:56

it's a good thing. It's a

20:58

great thing because it gives people

21:00

a language with which to discuss

21:02

fear. Because really what detachment theory

21:04

is about is that people are

21:06

afraid of love. They are as

21:09

excited about love as they're afraid

21:11

of love. And, you know, that

21:13

classic distinction between the avoidant person

21:15

and the anxious person. Go one

21:17

level below that. Both the anxious

21:19

and the avoidant person are afraid

21:21

of love. They're afraid of proximity.

21:24

They just handle that fear differently.

21:26

The avoidant by moving away. The

21:28

anxious by getting angry. and pulling

21:30

somebody near with forcefulness. But it's

21:32

the same thing. Below the surface,

21:34

there's a narrative, and the narrative

21:36

goes something like this. If I

21:39

get close to someone, bad stuff

21:41

will happen because it's happened before.

21:43

In childhood. In childhood. For

21:46

those of you looking to

21:48

deepen your understanding of love

21:50

and healthy partnership, I am

21:52

launching a live course as

21:55

a companion to Letters to

21:57

Venus. This causes an opportunity

21:59

to go deeper. by experts

22:01

and supported by a like-minded

22:03

community. So whether you're out

22:05

there seeking a partner and

22:07

you're tired of dating the

22:09

same person in different forms,

22:11

or if you're feeling unsure

22:13

about the next step in

22:15

your current relationship, or if

22:17

you just feel like you've

22:19

got patterns going on that

22:21

you just can't quite unpick,

22:23

this course will offer a

22:25

safe and private space to

22:27

explore love and relationships without

22:29

judgment. I will be your

22:31

personal cosmic agony on leading

22:33

weekly live webinars along with

22:35

workshops and panel discussions hosted

22:37

by incredible guest experts. Spaces

22:39

are limited so if you

22:41

would like to join head

22:43

to the show notes or

22:45

visit Saturn Returns.co. UK to

22:47

sign up. Because

22:52

I was listening to something that

22:54

was saying that it actually starts

22:56

from when we're babies and that

22:58

we will have a way of

23:00

responding to our parents if they

23:03

leave the room and come back

23:05

in, you know, the anxious will

23:07

continue to cry, whereas the avoidant

23:09

might not make any noise at

23:11

all. Do you think that it's

23:14

that early on or do you

23:16

think it's more a product of...

23:18

our childhood experiences over time and

23:20

learnt behaviour. I just don't have

23:22

the experience, but my hunch would

23:24

be that whatever proclivities might be

23:27

there almost from birth... are then

23:29

amenable to change depending on what

23:31

happens. And you know, attachment styles

23:33

continue to evolve. I mean, an

23:35

attachment style is really a style,

23:38

and styles can be changed by

23:40

experience. You know, if you have

23:42

a succession of relationships which constantly

23:44

reinforce that people can't be relied

23:46

upon, you may become more avoiding

23:49

or more anxious if you have

23:51

succession of relationships that enforces the

23:53

idea that people can be trusted,

23:55

you will develop security. And what

23:57

about sort of someone that goes

24:00

from one to the other in

24:02

the same? relationship, the fearful avoidant.

24:04

Yes. I mean, you know, in

24:06

human nature, I think we fill

24:08

in the gaps that exist in

24:11

situations. It's like if someone's very

24:13

angry, Often you can't have two

24:15

people who are angry. So one

24:17

person monopolizes the angry space. And

24:19

then the other one has to

24:21

almost willingly or not adopt a

24:24

quieter position. You see this in

24:26

families where let's say there's one

24:28

very angry parent. None of the

24:30

children can ever express their anger

24:32

because the space has been monopolized.

24:35

So in a functioning relationship, ideally

24:37

no one should hog too much

24:39

of... you know, any one position.

24:41

What marks our healthy relationships is

24:43

flexibility. If you think of it

24:46

as a tennis court, people are

24:48

able to move around the court

24:50

and hit balls from different angles,

24:52

you know, and things get very

24:54

rigid if someone's always got to

24:57

be right by the net or

24:59

someone's always got to be way

25:01

back. So in terms of dating

25:03

and the world that we live

25:05

in today with dating apps and

25:08

so many people like you said

25:10

wanting to find love. and going

25:12

out into the wild and perhaps

25:14

they're really putting themselves out there

25:16

but they're just falling short. How

25:19

do you think we can kind

25:21

of combine I guess some of

25:23

the perhaps older ways with today

25:25

and balancing the feeling base, the

25:27

heart led with the more rational

25:29

and aware parts of ourselves? I

25:32

mean look first a shout out

25:34

for anyone who is going on

25:36

the dating rigmarole, it's an immensely

25:38

emotionally taxing... event really, which we...

25:40

More than it's been before? Well,

25:43

I mean, you know, it's still

25:45

relatively new. But I think if

25:47

you want to think for what

25:49

a date is, it's essentially, you

25:51

know, an interview for the most

25:54

significant role in your life. And

25:56

to do this week after week,

25:58

as many people do these days,

26:00

is... very emotionally taxing because you're

26:02

likely to discover all sorts of

26:05

really unpleasant things. Someone you like

26:07

the look-off doesn't want you. hugely

26:09

unpleasant. Someone who you thought might

26:11

be the answer turns out not

26:13

to be the answer. And on

26:16

and on it goes. I mean,

26:18

there are very few good possibilities.

26:20

Someone who initially seems good may

26:22

then reject you. Someone who initially

26:24

thought was great after two weeks.

26:26

Turns out not to be, etc.

26:29

So you really have to keep a

26:31

handle on hope. At the same time...

26:33

That's like saying you have to keep

26:35

a handle on your appetite when you

26:37

go in a restaurant. I mean like

26:40

you're there to eat So it's it's

26:42

very hard both to date and not

26:44

have hope that the date may work

26:46

out So there's a huge I mean

26:48

dates are often seen as a jokey

26:51

subject. They're seen as you know sort

26:53

of I know someone's dating and there's

26:55

a kind of carnival feel to the

26:57

whole thing. It's it's deeply dramatic for

26:59

people. And no wonder that at points

27:01

people will stop. They'll say, I can't

27:04

take it anymore. And I

27:06

think what they're saying is,

27:08

it's too difficult. These cycles

27:11

of hope and a disappointment

27:13

are too difficult. And the

27:15

chances of someone coming

27:17

along are too small, given

27:20

the emotional toll. And this

27:22

is a very poignant moment.

27:24

And you know. that really is

27:26

no easy answer because what

27:28

we're doing is meeting a

27:30

very non-negotiable human need for

27:32

connection with others. I mean

27:35

this is very hardwired in

27:37

us. Meats very high criteria,

27:39

in other words we can't

27:41

meet that need with just

27:43

anyone, meets very limited and

27:46

intermittent supply. So you've got...

27:48

very difficult set of features coming together.

27:50

And what's more people are quite alone with

27:52

this. It's something that they undertake alone. So

27:55

a lot of isolation around this. So no

27:57

one of the people are sad and you

27:59

get... you know, outburst where people

28:01

go never again, it's quite understandable.

28:03

Do you think that there's anything that

28:06

we could do differently though in terms

28:08

of equipping ourselves with tools or practices?

28:10

Because I also think that, you know,

28:12

people go into the dating landscape and

28:14

perhaps they do have a lot of

28:16

hope and they have expectations of how

28:18

it's going to go and they really

28:21

like that person. They're very attracted to

28:23

them. They have a lot of feeling

28:25

towards them initially, but they might not

28:27

be getting the same energy back, but

28:29

they keep... pursuing it because they're basing

28:31

it on how that person makes them

28:33

feel. Perhaps that person is making them

28:35

feel anxious, but they're sort

28:37

of attributing that to something

28:40

positive because they can't stop thinking

28:42

about it. I mean, look, the

28:44

overall truth is hopeful, but we

28:46

haven't yet learned to capitalize on

28:49

it. I believe that there really

28:51

is, on a planet of 8

28:53

billion people, a suitable match for

28:55

pretty much anyone. There really is.

28:57

But, and it's a huge but,

29:00

the methods of connecting people are

29:02

still unreliable. So

29:04

most of what we call dating

29:06

apps are closer to roulette machines

29:09

in the sense that they know

29:11

that they are not doing

29:13

their utmost to maximize the

29:15

lives of those who are

29:17

on them. They have a

29:19

lot of information about who

29:21

would go with whom, that

29:23

they're choosing not to divulge. For

29:25

one simple reason, that if they did

29:28

that, people would be off the app

29:30

very quickly and some people would leave

29:32

the app because the app has not

29:34

recruited the right number of people for

29:36

them. So they're never going to be

29:38

happy, but the app doesn't want to

29:40

admit that because then people would leave.

29:42

So it's a calculated contract and it

29:44

works for some people. like casinos work

29:46

for some people and that's why we

29:48

keep going to the casino because we've

29:50

seen some people where it works and

29:52

people have won yeah some people have

29:54

won and think oh well then I

29:56

could win and but but but the

29:58

numbers are hedged so So ultimately, the

30:01

casino owner always wins, and

30:03

they're not that interested in,

30:05

as it were, the happiness of the

30:08

people who were using it. But if

30:10

we were running the utopia, what we

30:12

would do is have everyone on

30:14

the planet registered and psychologically understood

30:16

at depth and a supercomputer would

30:19

then really properly work out who

30:21

has the best chance of being

30:23

with whom and the answer would

30:25

then arrive for people in a

30:28

dispassionate non-commercialized way but then we're

30:30

talking about something completely different closer

30:32

to almost a medical intervention where

30:35

you know, blood types, aligned, etc.

30:37

So we could be doing it

30:39

much better, but as I say,

30:41

the frustration that people experience

30:43

is a commercially mandated frustration,

30:46

and it could be avoided.

30:48

And you know, there's room

30:50

for entrepreneurs, more benevolent entrepreneurs,

30:53

to get to grips with

30:55

this. Because that is how people are

30:57

meeting these days, and that's going

30:59

to continue to be. And look, I

31:02

mean, in a way... the app

31:04

world has made an enormous advance

31:06

on the old world where, you

31:08

know, what was there, the party?

31:10

And the party is a hugely

31:12

random way of trying to encounter

31:14

someone. I mean, the fact that

31:16

you would, you know, gather, you

31:18

know, someone's gathered 200 of their

31:20

best friends, and you're trying to

31:22

find somebody who's, you know, the

31:24

compatible age, compatible stage of life,

31:26

sort of, by going to talk

31:28

to them, you know, the mountain

31:30

is very steep. highly defeated. So

31:32

the app is a much better

31:35

first step and it fits in

31:37

with other you know digital connecting

31:39

tools. I mean we now know

31:41

that you know on LinkedIn you

31:43

know you'll find a much higher

31:46

chance of finding somebody who's in

31:48

the right industry blah blah blah

31:50

then if you were you know

31:52

to walk out in the road and go

31:54

to a party. Well as in

31:56

LinkedIn for dating or in the

31:59

business sense. at, you know, if you're

32:01

looking for light bulbs, it was a nightmare

32:03

to light bulb shop to light bulb shop.

32:05

I had to find it a slightly unusual

32:08

light bulb. You put it in and, you

32:10

know, hey, presto, there's a shop somewhere far

32:12

away with just that light bulb. I mean,

32:14

that's amazing. That's the power of the internet

32:17

to make connections over pretty rare things. And

32:19

so it's no wonder that, you know, entrepreneurs

32:21

got in on the dating field, but we're

32:23

just at the beginning of knowing how to

32:26

handle that technology maximally effectively effectively effectively effectively

32:28

effectively effectively effectively. Yeah, I thought because

32:30

I'm quite a hopeless romantic and like

32:32

the idea of fate, which I guess

32:34

doesn't really tie in to the app.

32:36

But then I was thinking recently

32:39

about dating reality shows and in

32:41

a way that's what they're doing

32:43

is that they're really considering the

32:46

psychology of a person, they've interviewed

32:48

them thoroughly and they're putting them

32:50

or placing them with these

32:52

people and kind of doing

32:54

these social experiments. But what we

32:56

can see is... people are falling in love

32:58

off the back of that. You know, there

33:00

has been quite a lot of success when

33:03

you've got a pretty small number of people

33:05

that they're putting together. So what does

33:07

that tell us? You know, it kind

33:09

of in a way it's unromantic because

33:11

I think it takes away this idea

33:14

that there's, you know, fate involved or

33:16

you could argue otherwise, but for me

33:18

it does. And that actually it's some

33:20

producers or perhaps psychologists or whoever they

33:22

have in the background. going, okay, if

33:25

we put this person with this person

33:27

after screening thousands, we think there's a

33:29

high probability that they're going to have

33:31

chemistry and perhaps fall in love and

33:34

it's going to be great entertainment. Yes,

33:36

and I think that should give you

33:38

hope because I think what you're calling

33:40

romantic in this sense is something heartfelt,

33:43

spontaneous, etc. And I think what we're

33:45

saying is Get all the background stuff

33:47

right, screen the psychology, get people

33:49

aligned on all their needs, and

33:52

you will find, hey, presto, all

33:54

that stuff that you like and

33:56

see as spontaneous will arise. Look,

33:58

think about it. as agriculture. So think

34:01

about strawberries, right? So we all love wild

34:03

strawberries and it's lovely. You're going for a

34:05

walk and then you see a bush and

34:07

there's some wild strawberries and they're absolutely delicious

34:10

and succulent and you think how lovely that

34:12

nature just provides these. Then along comes somebody

34:14

and goes, Let's put this on a shore

34:16

of footing, so we get more of these

34:18

for more people. Let's start agriculture. Let's lay

34:21

out some rows of strawberries. And you grow

34:23

these things. And, you know, on the one

34:25

hand, the good side is, lots more strawberries.

34:27

Downside is, they taste bland and kind of

34:30

hollow and black cardboard. And you think,

34:32

mmm, I much prefer the wild strawberries.

34:34

Now, we know that neither... of these

34:36

two options is ultimately where

34:38

we want to be. Because

34:40

the wild strawberries, though delicious

34:42

and succulent, they're just aren't

34:45

enough of them. It's too

34:47

rare. You've given too much

34:49

chance. And the mass-manufactured, agricultured

34:51

things are too bland and too

34:53

cold, as it were. And what

34:55

we want is something in between.

34:57

And I think in agriculture, we

34:59

are learning, horticulturists are learning how

35:02

to do this, how to create,

35:04

you know. mass-produced strawberries

35:06

that have some of

35:08

the qualities of a

35:10

wild strawberry. But this

35:12

requires intense scientific effort.

35:14

an intense study of tastes and

35:16

all sorts of things. So

35:18

the old world, the pre-industrial

35:20

world, the world of intuition,

35:22

the world of chance, had

35:24

many charming things, old buildings

35:26

that an artisan just put

35:29

up and we think, oh,

35:31

what a lovely cozy cottage

35:33

or a table built by

35:35

an unschooled carpenter that just

35:37

has a... activity that's amazing.

35:39

We know lots of things

35:41

at the homemade, the homespun,

35:43

the chance that were great.

35:45

We've moved into a technological

35:47

industrial world, many of

35:49

whose products seem cold,

35:52

alien, unhealthy, barren, empty.

35:54

And so there's terrific

35:57

nostalgia. Let's go back.

35:59

can't really go back.

36:01

But I think what we

36:04

can do is think deeper

36:06

about how with the tools

36:09

of modernity, we can stop

36:11

accepting the substandard mass-produced bland

36:13

offerings of 20th century science

36:16

and technology to aim for

36:18

something more individuated, closer to

36:21

our real passions. And I think

36:23

where you described these reality

36:25

shows that help people to

36:27

fall in love. you know, in

36:29

a way that's almost a synthesis.

36:32

It's a synthesis between passion and

36:34

technology. So you're not getting just

36:36

a technological cardboard relationship, but nor

36:38

you nor you having to wait

36:41

around on the train station of

36:43

love for a train for most

36:45

of your life. And you know,

36:47

let's not forget how many people

36:50

in the pre-modern world just waited

36:52

and waited and waited and died

36:54

alone. You know, so it wasn't working

36:56

perfectly. It worked for a

36:58

very few people and those

37:00

people were celebrated in art

37:02

and poetry and music and

37:04

that's why we hear about

37:07

them. But for everyone who

37:09

found their love by chance

37:11

in the bookshop there would

37:13

be legions of people sitting

37:15

at home dying alone. It's

37:17

pretty miserable. Well it's a sign

37:19

of what we got a work cut

37:21

out and that's exciting thing.

37:24

There's stuff to be done.

37:26

On an individual level, if someone's

37:28

listening to this and they

37:30

have dating fatigue, they're putting

37:32

themselves out there, they don't feel

37:34

like they're getting anywhere and they feel

37:37

like it's more, you know, the strawberries

37:39

that are bland, have no taste. How

37:41

can they, what can they learn about

37:43

themselves that equips them with the

37:45

knowledge to go, okay, this is actually

37:47

what I really need in a partnership

37:49

versus what I'm being drawn to because of

37:52

a pattern of a pattern of behaviour

37:54

that might not even be that.

37:56

healthy or you know just

37:58

to be better. on the

38:00

initial dating stage so that they

38:02

don't waste their time. I mean,

38:04

look. If someone is discouraged, I

38:07

think I would start somewhere slightly

38:09

different with all due respect. I

38:11

would start with acknowledging that what

38:13

they are doing is hugely complicated

38:15

and therefore their pain is entirely

38:17

legitimate. Of course you're feeling down.

38:19

It's what you're putting yourself through

38:21

is incredibly arduous. It looks simple.

38:23

Oh, I just downloaded, you know,

38:26

an app and it's been flicking

38:28

through, you know, no particular, you're

38:30

putting yourself through an emotional roller

38:32

coaster. It's, you're doing... one of

38:34

the more difficult emotional maneuvers that

38:36

is possible to do in life

38:38

and so therefore give yourself and

38:40

you know look after yourself because

38:43

it's not easy no wonder you

38:45

know think oh you know I

38:47

I swiped whatever left right on

38:49

you know 20 people that had

38:51

a chat and then I got

38:53

ghosted and now I'm depressed no

38:55

wonder this is this is very

38:57

difficult you know it we have

38:59

a language where we think that's

39:02

easy it's easy it's not really

39:04

tricky so you know As for

39:06

the kind of particular thing of

39:08

getting more accurate, I think what

39:10

you're saying, getting more accurate about,

39:12

you know, make sure you're not

39:14

doing this all the time because

39:16

you need something else. You need

39:19

reminders of your, you know, legitimate

39:21

existence outside of this, and that

39:23

that may require some breaks. As

39:25

for the kind of particular thing

39:27

of getting more accurate, what you

39:29

want. I mean... I think very

39:31

often we don't tend to ask

39:33

ourselves sharply enough what really it

39:35

is that who we are what

39:38

we what we require and so

39:40

we kind of slightly like everybody

39:42

or like no one as it

39:44

were we're not zeroing in enough

39:46

on the sorts of things that

39:48

seem to matter and say the

39:50

apps don't necessarily make it easy

39:52

for us. I think something that

39:55

you know I've heard works very

39:57

well is for people. instead of

39:59

rushing out to go and meet

40:01

people in physical space, is to

40:03

set up phone calls, video calls,

40:05

just not have to leave the

40:07

house until they're a bit more

40:09

sure of how they're feeling about

40:11

things. Making that investment, I guess.

40:14

Yes, yes. But as I say,

40:16

I think the key thing is,

40:18

it's a very difficult thing. But

40:20

then, you know, once you do

40:22

meet someone, it also pays to

40:24

know... the questions to ask. I

40:26

mean, you know, we're talking about

40:28

attachment theory. Many relationships fall apart

40:31

because of certain incompatibilities in people's

40:33

style of loving. And if we

40:35

know a bit about our own

40:37

style, if we know what kind

40:39

of style would make us happy,

40:41

you know, we're going to be

40:43

saving ourselves time. I mean... Here

40:45

are some things, you know, at

40:48

the School of Life, we always

40:50

recommend that people should ask, people

40:52

on an early dinner date, should,

40:54

probably by the end of the

40:56

date, should say, so how are

40:58

you mad to their partner? I

41:00

like that. And it's an interesting

41:02

question because if someone goes mad,

41:04

I'm not mad at all, what

41:07

do you mean? You think, oh

41:09

my goodness, okay, good, they're at

41:11

ease with the fact that... we're

41:13

all a little bit unhinged. And

41:15

you know, we don't need people

41:17

to be perfect. We don't need

41:19

our dates, our partners, our lovers,

41:21

to be perfect. What we do

41:24

need is that they have some

41:26

handle on the scale of their

41:28

imperfection. And awareness of their flaws.

41:30

Some awareness of their flaws. Some

41:32

ability to step back occasionally and

41:34

go, okay, oh God, I do

41:36

know I do that thing. And

41:38

therefore to... prepare the partner for

41:40

some of the challenges. There's an

41:43

enormous difference between saying, you know,

41:45

when you come too close, I

41:47

sometimes get a bit nervous, need

41:49

a bit of time on my

41:51

own. That might be a hard

41:53

message to hear. it's a lot

41:55

easier to hear than someone who

41:57

just goes, no I just need

42:00

to go to the library, that's

42:02

fine, what are you complaining about?

42:04

It's like, oh gosh that's a

42:06

defense of acting out and the

42:08

other is an explanation. And this

42:10

is where if there's any hope

42:12

about people who have more and

42:14

more relationships, because sometimes you can

42:16

think the more relationships I have,

42:19

you know, the further I get

42:21

from anything. If experience, if we're

42:23

to make a case for experience,

42:25

it is that experience gives us

42:27

more of an opportunity to understand

42:29

bits of ourselves that, you know,

42:31

every relationship should be gifting you

42:33

some insights. I mean, there should

42:36

be an exit interview from relationships

42:38

where, you know, someone's dumping someone,

42:40

if we could bear it. if

42:42

we could bear it, even if

42:44

we're being abandoned, we should turn

42:46

to our partner and say, look,

42:48

I'm not going to get offended.

42:50

But just tell me, what could

42:52

I learn? What do you think?

42:55

Because you've been around me very

42:57

intensely for five years, six months,

42:59

three weeks, whatever it is. But

43:01

you know, you've seen me. Are

43:03

there things that you could tell

43:05

me about me that might help

43:07

me? It's quite a confronting question,

43:09

but such a useful question, especially

43:12

if the answer could be delivered

43:14

with a certain diplomacy and, you

43:16

know, necessary gentleness. But at the

43:18

same time, truth, you could say,

43:20

you know, you have a slightly

43:22

overexited manner, which then leads the

43:24

disappointment or, you know, you're so

43:26

reserved that actually it leads the

43:29

other person to whatever. And, you

43:31

know, in life, we rarely, rarely,

43:33

rarely get feedback on who we

43:35

really are. our friends can't be

43:37

bothered. They, you know, why would

43:39

they get involved in, you know,

43:41

that kind of feedback? Offices, they're

43:43

just keen to avoid a lawsuit,

43:45

so if they're getting rid of

43:48

us, they'll give us some bland

43:50

thing. I mean, very, you know,

43:52

our parents, they just want a

43:54

nice, easy time with us. You

43:56

know, they're blinded by their affections

43:58

for it. So, so very rarely,

44:00

they've had too much to drink

44:02

and they're shouting and they say

44:05

you're a stupid idiot. That's not

44:07

going to help either. I'm talking

44:09

here about a really thoughtful, kindly,

44:11

well-meant, but nevertheless true analysis of

44:13

the complexities of someone's nature. We

44:15

would benefit enormously. I completely

44:17

agree. Because also on that, how I

44:19

have a couple of things that I wanted to

44:22

ask you, but in terms of dating

44:24

and having that kind of radical

44:26

honesty quite early on. Where is the

44:28

balance? Because I feel a lot of

44:30

people, you know, we do approach it

44:32

like it's a bit of an interview,

44:34

we present our best selves, we want

44:36

the person to like us. So we

44:38

often, without even realizing or adjusting ourselves

44:40

in subtle ways, and perhaps not really

44:42

being honest about what we want. And

44:44

I speak to a lot of people, especially

44:46

because dating is so complex these

44:49

days because there's so many different

44:51

ways that people are dating. It's

44:53

less black and white as it

44:55

used to be. and then people

44:57

are kind of molding themselves if I,

44:59

oh well, yeah, maybe I could do polyamery,

45:01

you know, and like sort of trying

45:03

to fit into these shapes and sizes

45:05

that just aren't what they really want.

45:07

So at what point should they be? That

45:09

honest I mean it's such a good question without

45:11

scaring people away right it's such a good question

45:14

because you know when you've been in a relationship

45:16

a certain amount of time I remember joking to

45:18

an ex-partner Gosh if I'd said this to you

45:20

early on you would have run for the hills

45:22

and it was complete I can't even remember what

45:24

it was but it was completely unthreatening in the

45:26

context of a long established relationship they didn't mind

45:28

at all it was you know quite funny I

45:30

don't know what it was some personal habit or

45:32

what it was some personal habit or something or

45:34

something but but but but but but but but

45:36

but but but but if if I'd said that

45:38

on the first date, you know, they would have

45:40

run for the hills. They would run away. So

45:42

it is about sequencing things. And I think there

45:44

can almost be a, you know, we

45:46

talked about the desire for love not to

45:48

work. There can be a way in

45:50

which we scup a love by giving,

45:53

you know, almost by instinct that we

45:55

don't want a relationship to flourish. And

45:57

one of the ways in which we

45:59

stick a... a stick in the

46:01

wheels, a stick in the wheels,

46:03

is that we say something that

46:05

will frighten the other person, that

46:08

there isn't enough basis for reassurance.

46:10

Because we're all the time thinking,

46:12

sorry, we're all the time thinking,

46:14

at least one bit of our mind

46:17

is this person too unbalanced,

46:19

too crazy, dangerous in some

46:21

way. And we need a certain amount

46:23

of time to pass to reassure someone

46:25

that we're basically, you know. Okay, and

46:28

then we can come out with a

46:30

serial killer joke, and then we can,

46:32

you know, but if you come out

46:34

with a serial killer joke in the

46:36

first minute, I mean, it may not

46:38

be that funny, I mean, it may

46:41

not be that funny, because we

46:43

really, you know, it could be a

46:45

serial killer. So, so it is about

46:47

context, but look, you're right, there is

46:49

a kind of dance of honesty,

46:52

because, you know, we only exist

46:54

in relationships in order to

46:56

be... as much of ourselves as

46:58

possible. We want to bring key

47:00

bits of ourselves to be witnessed

47:03

and seen by others. It's impossible

47:05

to be at once intimate and,

47:08

you know, totally private, locked away

47:10

in oneself. You can't intimacy is

47:12

the mutual revelation of one's kind

47:15

of true self. And so that's

47:17

going to require some courage and

47:20

honesty. And I think, you know... Again,

47:22

a bit of experience can help

47:24

here. Sometimes we're in danger of

47:26

thinking that thing that's really private

47:28

in me has no echoes in

47:30

anyone else. I was born, you

47:33

know, like a Martian, totally alone

47:35

on this planet. No one feels

47:37

what I'm feeling. And I think

47:39

this is something that comics understand

47:41

very well. You know, a lot

47:43

of comedy is based on a

47:46

daring bet that what's in you

47:48

is actually in the other person

47:50

as well. And so the comic

47:52

will say, yeah, it is when you go to

47:54

service station and dot, dot, dot. And no one's

47:56

mentioned it. And it seems a bit like, ooh,

47:59

that's a bit weird, yeah. That's true, yeah,

48:01

I too do that weird thing. I

48:03

do that thing too. And you think

48:05

lovely, you know, and you laugh. Because

48:07

it's unifying. Yes, but also

48:09

it's clever that they've been

48:11

in touch enough with themselves, the

48:14

comic, and they've also been in

48:16

touch enough with other people, to

48:18

know that beneath a kind of

48:21

guarded anonymous world, a lot of

48:23

what's in me as in you.

48:25

And if I can just bring

48:28

it out with skill, you'll be

48:30

reassured, etc. dating has that similar

48:32

requirement of like, okay, I, you

48:34

know, I mean, it's what makes

48:37

people charming, you know, when not,

48:39

really, it is an art, it

48:41

is not, it's an art of

48:44

daring to think that what's in

48:46

you has an echo in the

48:48

other person and even

48:50

despite any evidence, I

48:53

mean, imagine someone on a

48:55

date who just goes something

48:57

like... Probably we both want to

48:59

get out and go buy some Maltesas

49:01

and go to the park at this point

49:04

when actually, you know, on offer was a

49:06

slightly stodgy dessert or something. And actually they

49:08

put their finger, yeah, it's true, we've been

49:11

sitting down too long, yeah, we do

49:13

want to get some sweets and go to

49:15

the park, that sounds really fun. It's actually,

49:17

it really fits in, if this were my

49:19

best friend. That's what I would want to

49:22

do. That's what I'd feel relaxed enough

49:24

about doing. But the person has intuitive that

49:26

and is taking you somewhere where you'd been

49:28

too hemmed in. And that's lovely.

49:30

That's along the path of

49:33

intimacy. I guess the fear and

49:35

risk with that is that you're

49:37

going to say something thinking that

49:40

the other person has that

49:42

same madness or that same internal

49:44

dialogue. So there is, you know, there

49:46

is a virtue in taking a risk

49:48

because really what you'll be doing. I

49:51

mean, you know, being true to yourself,

49:53

really. Yeah, I mean, you know, people

49:55

agonize a lot about, you know, should I

49:57

call them, should I not call them? Yeah.

50:00

And the game playing goes on.

50:02

Now, of course we know situations

50:04

where, you know, the calling really

50:06

was so intense that it seemed to

50:08

speak of a kind of worrying

50:10

level of emptiness in their life

50:12

and whatever, and so legitimately we

50:14

withdraw. But there are many, many cases

50:16

where it's not going to change

50:18

anything whether you call at this

50:20

point or that point. It's just

50:22

going to speed up whatever's going to

50:25

happen. So in other words, you

50:27

know, you could wait another week

50:29

and they would feel exactly the

50:31

same. They either want you or don't

50:33

want you. It's not going to

50:35

change. So I think people get

50:37

too hung up on this. On sort

50:39

of analyzing the text and the

50:41

wording and you know. There's also

50:43

something we wrote about something for

50:45

the School of Life on this the

50:48

other day. We call it the

50:50

rule of simplicity and very often

50:52

people. when they're involved in a

50:54

situation that's feeling a bit complicated and

50:56

they start to do a lot

50:58

of thinking they go hang on

51:00

they they do really like me, it's

51:02

just that they're worried that I

51:04

don't like them, so that's why

51:06

they were shy. But their shyness

51:08

is not shyness, it's actually desire. And

51:11

they're not calling, is not a

51:13

sign that they don't like me,

51:15

it's actually a sign that they

51:17

really like me, but they're hesitant because

51:19

of the scale of their love.

51:21

By the time we're doing all

51:23

that sort of thinking, you probably

51:25

should lean on the rule of simplicity

51:28

is... a very simple and dictates

51:30

that if a relationship is going

51:32

to work, it's going to work. It's

51:34

going to roll. It's going to

51:36

roll. The shy person will just

51:38

say, would you like to come

51:40

out for dinner or whatever, and the,

51:42

you know, it will just happen.

51:44

And if it's not happening, and

51:46

you're having to, if they're, oh,

51:48

maybe their phone ran out of battery,

51:51

or they're scared. But then you're

51:53

thinking that another adult. an adult

51:55

who in the rest of their life

51:57

is having a job and talking

51:59

to people etc. that this person

52:01

has miraculously fallen shy like an

52:03

infant of four years, four and a

52:05

half years old. It's unlikely. It's

52:07

unlikely. Hard-pilled swallow though. It's a

52:09

very hard-pilled but once you get

52:11

that rule, you quite quickly dismiss it.

52:14

So in other words, if that

52:16

text hasn't come through, fine, that's

52:18

not going to work. Don't, you

52:20

know. I always like to think you

52:22

can't say the wrong thing to

52:24

the right person. I think a

52:26

lot of times like when we are

52:28

dating and then you... I feel

52:30

like you've done something wrong to

52:33

make them not reply or not

52:35

want another date with you and if

52:37

you'd only sent that text in

52:39

a different way or not called

52:41

them when you did. Yes. And

52:43

like I was saying, it's not that.

52:45

That's right. This kind of belief

52:47

that you have shattered this fragile...

52:49

globe of love. It was a

52:51

crystal and you did something wrong and...

52:54

I'm putting a kiss at the

52:56

end of a text. Exactly, exactly.

52:58

And that it would have been fine

53:00

and that, you know, this is

53:02

what also happens when people break

53:04

up and they're sort of thinking,

53:06

You know, the partner is secretly still

53:08

thinking of me and they want

53:10

to get in touch with me,

53:12

but they're too shy. They're kind

53:14

of obsessed with me as I'm sort

53:17

of obsessed with them. And it's

53:19

all some tragic Romeo and Juliet

53:21

thing. I mean, we can't say that

53:23

that never happens, but it is

53:25

unbelievably. in a minority, you know,

53:27

if they're not calling, if they've

53:29

gone... And they've actually actively ended the

53:31

relationship, or at least not complained

53:33

when the relationship ended, you know,

53:35

almost certainly, as the Americans like

53:37

to say, they're not that into you.

53:40

Yeah, or if you wanted to,

53:42

he would, that's part of the

53:44

sort of social media sound bites

53:46

that goes around, which I guess what

53:48

we're saying is, it's actually true.

53:50

Yes, I mean, there's a certain

53:52

kind of stoic... the bravery and yes,

53:55

to just imagine that people are

53:57

better at communicating their intentions that

53:59

we sometimes give them credit for

54:01

when their intentions seem to be pointing

54:03

indirect. other than the ones we

54:05

would ideally like. Okay and so

54:07

that's the sort of discussion around

54:09

the art of dating but what about

54:11

the art of actually staying in

54:13

relationship because I feel like they

54:15

are a totally different skill set and

54:18

I think that there's a lot

54:20

out there around dating people are

54:22

often telling their dating stories on

54:24

Instagram sharing everything. Like we were talking

54:26

about earlier, you know, labelling people

54:28

as whatever, which is problematic in

54:30

its own way, but when people

54:32

actually get into long-term relationships, the doors

54:34

close. People don't talk about them

54:36

as much because perhaps the stakes

54:38

are higher. And I feel like

54:40

often we don't have the tools and

54:43

what's required to actually maintain healthy

54:45

love. Yes, and one of the

54:47

dangers is the assumption that once love

54:49

is established. it will just keep

54:51

rolling on. Rather than the truth,

54:53

which is that love has to

54:55

be kind of renegotiated possibly every day,

54:57

that a love that felt, you

54:59

know, fresh at nine in the

55:01

morning, maybe wilting by the evening,

55:03

this, you know, we have this whole

55:06

idea of sort of, you know,

55:08

we can do this thing called

55:10

getting married, which will mean that, you

55:12

know, because of piece of paper,

55:14

love will be assured for decades.

55:16

As I say, it's, it's closer

55:18

to a very, very, very delicate plant.

55:21

block or something that manages to

55:23

weather the elements. And you know,

55:25

Love's Integrity is constantly in doubt

55:27

and in question, partly because there's frustration

55:29

and upset that take place at

55:31

micro levels all the time, where

55:33

all the time getting upset and

55:35

upsetting our partners. There are constant, very

55:37

minor letdowns. I mean, there are

55:39

major ones too, but let's look

55:41

at the minor ones. You know, someone...

55:44

feels a little distracted at breakfast,

55:46

and that means that the other

55:48

person on the receiving end will

55:50

also withdraw a little bit. And then

55:52

by dinner time, if there hasn't

55:54

been a sort of repair of

55:56

that situation, then they can grow

55:58

a little... bit further apart and then

56:00

that means that having sex no

56:02

longer so appealing and then the

56:04

next day because there's not been

56:06

sex and and it's now been a

56:09

day of slightly slight withdrawal etc

56:11

etc etc and then you know

56:13

these things there's a line you can

56:15

plot from that to a divorce

56:17

I mean it really is something

56:19

you can trace and so it's

56:21

terribly important to look at the minor

56:24

cracks that are appearing like an

56:26

aircraft engineer that is constantly looking

56:28

for the tiniest fissures in metal.

56:30

Because they could cause a crash.

56:32

Because they could eventually cause a

56:34

major crash. Not immediately, but if

56:37

left unattended, these are the things

56:39

that will do it. So maintenance

56:41

is absolutely key. Sounds unromantic, brilliant.

56:44

Because it's unromantic, sounds unromantic, it's

56:46

going to be good for love.

56:48

And so to go into the

56:51

workshop and say something almost on

56:53

a morning and evening to say

56:55

to your partner, sounds odd. How have

56:57

I upset you? How might I have upset you?

56:59

Is there something? Is there something

57:01

that I've missed? Is there something that

57:04

I'm not getting? This is something you

57:06

need to tell me? And also... You

57:08

know, do I need to tell you

57:10

something? You know, the other way around,

57:12

the other person does it back to

57:15

you? And is there something I misunderstood?

57:17

And this shouldn't be the opportunity for

57:19

a bloodbath, and if you catch it

57:22

early enough, it shouldn't be, you shouldn't

57:24

be like, you know, yeah, there's seven

57:26

things, I mean, you get off my

57:28

chest, because if you're doing it regularly,

57:31

you know, and it's so... It's so

57:33

nice if someone can acknowledge, you know,

57:35

someone can go look actually, it's a

57:37

bit disappointing. You know, the other thing

57:39

to be careful of is that a

57:41

lot of these things sound so petty

57:43

and that's what people don't do it.

57:45

They think it would be ridiculous to

57:48

mention. I'm a little bit upset about

57:50

sense of it. It sounds so silly. Or

57:52

if it's something that has happened a

57:54

long time ago that happened and I've been

57:56

storing the resentment. Right, right. And you

57:58

know, I urge your... listeners and viewers,

58:00

if there's something like that, get it

58:03

on the table. No embarrassment. The only

58:05

embarrassment is to have to go to

58:07

the divorce court because you haven't done

58:09

this enough. That's the embarrassing thing. I

58:11

guess it's about feedback again, right? It's

58:13

our capacity to kind of handle those

58:16

difficult conversations. Yes, but it's also a

58:18

particular kind of feedback. It requires us

58:20

to acknowledge that we can be hurt

58:22

by a feather. that once we are

58:24

in love, we are so delicate, we

58:26

are taking off our armour, you know,

58:28

out in the world, we'll take knocks

58:30

and you know, we don't mind what

58:32

people say, we're a good sport, we

58:35

laugh along with the jokes, etc. When

58:37

it comes to love, we are, you

58:39

know, our skin is as vulnerable as

58:41

a newborn, our psychic skin, as vulnerable

58:43

as a newborns, anything can puncture us.

58:45

And this is a bit hard to

58:47

admit to, because... it's very possible the

58:50

other person could turn around and go,

58:52

you're just a whiner, or like you're

58:54

so needy, or you're a crybaby. So

58:56

it's really important for the couple to

58:58

operate under a kind of rule that

59:01

both can sign up to, which is

59:03

we are both needy, we are both

59:05

small children, we are both upset by

59:07

a feather, and that's the way that

59:10

everybody, even, you know, Hercules, would be

59:12

like this because we're human beings. We're

59:14

not unnecessarily wimpy, etc. We're totally

59:17

competented. as vulnerable psychically

59:19

as as newborn children. And that's

59:22

not you, that's not me, that's

59:24

everybody. So we take the any

59:26

majority of association out of it.

59:28

And on that basis, we can

59:30

then start to inquire on a

59:32

daily basis. Are you okay? What have

59:35

I done? I'm sure I've done something.

59:37

Again, the issue is not, have I

59:39

done something? What have I done? The

59:41

question should not be, have I upset

59:43

you, but how have I upset you?

59:45

Because you have. You know, every, it's

59:47

like, oh, you didn't knock when you

59:49

came in, or you'd have to play

59:52

to my study table, and I've told

59:54

you so many times, or you didn't

59:56

pick up the dry cleaning, and I'm

59:58

a bit disappointed, or you... said you

1:00:00

didn't like my friend Bill and I quite

1:00:02

like my friend Bill and why why is

1:00:04

it always have to you know etc etc

1:00:06

etc and it's not that there needs to

1:00:09

be perfect alignment there can't be it's sometimes

1:00:11

you're just gonna disagree at least you know at least

1:00:13

you know and you know and there can be difficult

1:00:15

information I mean you can say to your partner

1:00:17

I love you but I need to spend a bit

1:00:19

less time with you and it's because you know

1:00:21

I'm bit screwed up but my childhood etc

1:00:23

etc etc etc etc etc etc

1:00:25

etc etc but I need to spend

1:00:28

a bit more time alone. And if

1:00:30

they can hear that, wow, it's so,

1:00:32

I want to say, sexy. I mean,

1:00:34

you know, let's talk about sex. You

1:00:36

know, you want to have sex

1:00:38

with people who understand you.

1:00:41

There's nothing sexier than somebody

1:00:43

who understands you, who's taking

1:00:45

the trouble to understand you.

1:00:47

And there's nothing unsexier than

1:00:50

somebody who seems uninterested in the

1:00:52

things that matter to you. And

1:00:54

also someone who isn't threatened

1:00:56

by your needs. can't understand it

1:00:58

and can't give it to you, it

1:01:01

inevitably is going to make you feel

1:01:03

smothered. But alternatively as well, if you

1:01:05

don't express it and you suppress that,

1:01:07

then you're going to feel smothered anyway. And

1:01:10

you know, there are many people who, I

1:01:12

mean, in my work as a therapist, I

1:01:14

often come across couples who they'll say

1:01:16

things like, you know, I was really upset

1:01:18

and you know, they didn't do this and

1:01:20

they didn't do that and I got really,

1:01:23

and I got really, and then I've learned

1:01:25

to ask. Oh no, I didn't.

1:01:27

Told everyone else though. Yeah, yeah,

1:01:29

I told everyone else, I told

1:01:31

my diary, you know, and I

1:01:33

say, okay, and it's not, sometimes

1:01:35

they don't tell anyone else, they

1:01:38

don't even tell themselves, because in

1:01:40

order to register the things that

1:01:42

you really feel, it does require

1:01:44

a certain sort of childhood, you

1:01:47

know. If no one else ever cared about

1:01:49

what you felt, because everybody was

1:01:51

so busy doing their own thing,

1:01:53

it's very hard for you to

1:01:55

maintain connection, auditory connection, with

1:01:57

the deeper sides of you. You

1:02:00

won't know you're angry because anger was

1:02:02

never possible. No one ever asked if

1:02:04

you were angry. You might not know

1:02:06

that you're disappointed. You might not know

1:02:08

that you're hopeful. Your correspondence with yourself

1:02:11

is stymied, is blocked by the fact

1:02:13

that no one was interested. So we

1:02:15

might say the way in which

1:02:17

learned to communicate with ourselves is

1:02:19

because other people have communicated with

1:02:21

us at an early stage, communicated

1:02:23

with our depths. And because they

1:02:25

communicated with our depths. we are then in

1:02:27

touch with our own debts and can

1:02:29

then communicate those two others. So, but

1:02:32

you know, this cause is immense trouble

1:02:34

in relationships. And you know, sometimes whole

1:02:36

relationships are scuppered and people will, you

1:02:38

know, 10 years later, realize what was

1:02:40

going on. That someone was not able.

1:02:43

to tell their partner and no one

1:02:45

was being evil. They were just emotionally,

1:02:47

rudely, but you know, truly primitive. They

1:02:49

were emotionally primitive. They did not have

1:02:51

the equipment to translate their inner world

1:02:54

into something that somebody else could understand.

1:02:56

This is something we should be taught

1:02:58

and that young people going into relationships

1:03:00

should really be on top of. It's

1:03:02

like you cannot expect your partner to

1:03:04

be a mind reader. If you are

1:03:06

angry about something, you have to acknowledge

1:03:08

it with yourself and then put it

1:03:10

into words that can be understood by

1:03:13

somebody else. Without it being an attack.

1:03:15

Without it being attacked. With diplomacy.

1:03:17

Diplomacy is the art. We

1:03:19

know what diplomats do in the political

1:03:21

world. They take a very difficult message

1:03:23

from the king. The king is ranting

1:03:26

and raging in his palace. And then

1:03:28

the diplomat takes that to another palace

1:03:30

and goes, my master is a little

1:03:32

hesitant. And they break it down into

1:03:35

something that's manageable. And we all need

1:03:37

to be diplomats, whatever our professional careers.

1:03:39

We all need to learn from diplomats,

1:03:41

because family life, intimate life, it demands

1:03:43

it demands it demands it every hour.

1:03:46

Yeah, that's so true. So in

1:03:48

terms of long-term relationships and

1:03:50

sex, how often is sex

1:03:52

about sex and sex about so

1:03:55

many other things that are going

1:03:57

on? I mean, look, sex is

1:03:59

about allowing... somebody into a very

1:04:02

inner sanctum of your life.

1:04:04

And the more you trust

1:04:06

someone to be delicate

1:04:08

and complicated around your

1:04:10

complexities, appropriately

1:04:12

complicated, the more you

1:04:14

will allow them in.

1:04:16

So the breakdown in

1:04:18

sex. He's always very eloquent

1:04:21

of something. It's telling us

1:04:23

something very important. It's telling

1:04:25

us that there are things

1:04:27

that are not being communicated.

1:04:29

Difficult things. I mean, which

1:04:31

could include things like, I

1:04:33

don't always want to have

1:04:35

sex. But if you're able

1:04:37

to say to somebody, I

1:04:39

don't always want to have

1:04:41

sex, you'll want to have sex

1:04:44

much more authentically. But

1:04:46

it's extremely hard. to be

1:04:48

honest with other people. And it's

1:04:50

extremely hard to bear the honesty

1:04:52

of other people. So it's a two-way

1:04:55

problem, to really see somebody else as

1:04:57

they are, to allow them to be who

1:04:59

they are, and to allow them

1:05:01

to see who you are. I

1:05:03

mean, it's an Olympic sport. I

1:05:05

mean, it's up there with some

1:05:07

of the most complicated things that

1:05:09

humans ever do. And this is

1:05:11

the thing about love. We tend

1:05:13

to think that love is... democratically

1:05:15

allocated that everybody can do this

1:05:17

thing called love. We don't think

1:05:19

that figure ice skating is for

1:05:21

everybody. We don't think that playing

1:05:23

the violin at high level is

1:05:25

for everybody. We understand that these

1:05:27

are disciplines that have required an enormous

1:05:30

amount of dedication and work. Why shouldn't

1:05:32

some of that be true in the

1:05:34

realm of love? We can get better

1:05:36

at love. can sometimes pick up

1:05:38

love like somebody like a novice picking up

1:05:41

a violin and just going, well, let me

1:05:43

play this. And having never given it a

1:05:45

thought. But I guess the difference is we

1:05:48

don't all need to be figure skaters, but

1:05:50

we all need love. And so that's why

1:05:52

we all need to go to the school

1:05:54

of love. I mean, we do. We really

1:05:56

do need an education, which sounds, what does

1:05:58

it sound? Un romantic. which is why

1:06:01

it's good. We need to learn

1:06:03

about love. I mean, this is, you

1:06:05

know, the ancient Greeks were onto this.

1:06:07

I mean, they were, you know, if

1:06:10

you read Plato's Symposium, it's a philosophical

1:06:12

discussion about whether love is essentially an

1:06:14

instinct or a rational process that needs

1:06:17

to be learned. And the Greek philosopher

1:06:19

then not with a rational process that

1:06:21

needs to be learned. And it's very

1:06:24

true. Now, it sounds unromantic. I mean,

1:06:26

if you said to a partner on

1:06:28

an early dinner date, look. Probably you

1:06:31

don't know how to love, I don't

1:06:33

know how to love, but should we

1:06:35

learn together? Should we just get

1:06:37

good at love and, you know,

1:06:39

share our learnings and become experts at

1:06:42

this, like we're trying to learn Spanish

1:06:44

or something? What a lovely project. What

1:06:46

a lovely honest admission that we might

1:06:49

not know how to do it. How

1:06:51

odd sounding, but I'd be keen

1:06:53

on somebody like that. I mean,

1:06:55

I think probably all would. It is

1:06:57

actually a extremely generous gift to offer

1:07:00

someone. Because also the things that fuel

1:07:02

the initial stages of a relationship in

1:07:04

the honeymoon period that are based

1:07:06

on sort of chemistry and attraction

1:07:08

and all those ingredients that are very

1:07:11

important and not to be undervalued, but

1:07:13

inevitably they kind of fade a little

1:07:15

bit and then we need new tools

1:07:18

or new things to kind of

1:07:20

keep that. the glue to the

1:07:22

relationship together. That's right. We do by

1:07:24

instinct in the early days. We get

1:07:26

almost a gift from nature. We get

1:07:29

an instinctive first three months. It's effortless.

1:07:31

It's effortless. It's effortless. But then the

1:07:33

question is, you know, does love

1:07:35

have to die? Well, that phase

1:07:37

of love has to die, but it

1:07:40

can be supported by a whole set

1:07:42

of tools that look a bit unromantic,

1:07:44

but... can help to sustain those feelings.

1:07:47

You can have some of the

1:07:49

more boring disciplines, like therapy, like

1:07:51

therapeutic conversations, like reading, podcast, etc., that

1:07:53

will guide you towards... a more sincere

1:07:55

way of loving. You'll need to work

1:07:58

a bit harder, but the prize is

1:08:00

that love can be kept going.

1:08:02

And when people talk about love,

1:08:04

do you think that we're all talking

1:08:07

about the same thing? Because, you know,

1:08:09

it's communicated like falling in love. and

1:08:11

that everyone has like the same understanding

1:08:14

of it and the same measure of

1:08:16

what it should be. But in

1:08:18

terms of the longevity of love,

1:08:20

how would you define that? And do

1:08:22

you think it's different for different people?

1:08:25

I think you raised such an important

1:08:27

point and it's... I mean, it applies

1:08:29

right across the board when people

1:08:31

say the word holiday, do they

1:08:33

mean the same thing? When people say

1:08:36

the word children, do they mean when

1:08:38

people say the word death, etc. So

1:08:40

many philosophers have arguments about this, do

1:08:43

words, you know, we speak in

1:08:45

a language and we think we're

1:08:47

understanding each other, but actually if we

1:08:49

drill down, there are, it's amazing how

1:08:51

we, we kind of. we managed to

1:08:54

misunderstand each other very fruitfully. We kind

1:08:56

of constantly trade and misunderstand things, but

1:08:58

we get by anyway. The only

1:09:00

people who really have a language

1:09:02

that's unambiguous air traffic control, if you

1:09:05

do think about pilots, talk to air

1:09:07

traffic control, they are so rigorous and

1:09:09

they are so rigorous and there's no

1:09:12

room for ambiguity, which is why

1:09:14

generally planes don't crash because it's

1:09:16

like they're really drilling down into what

1:09:18

everybody, you know, do you mean this

1:09:20

bit of the runway or that bit

1:09:23

of the runway? But when it comes

1:09:25

to love, you're absolutely right that we're

1:09:27

much more vague with bad effects.

1:09:29

And I think it does pay

1:09:31

to ask a partner. What do you

1:09:34

mean? What does it mean for you

1:09:36

to feel that you are loved? What

1:09:38

does it mean for you to feel

1:09:41

that you are in a good

1:09:43

relationship? And there are astonishing divergences.

1:09:45

I mean, some people will say, you

1:09:47

know, I will feel loved if we

1:09:49

can sit down and discuss our feelings

1:09:52

for hours on end. Others will go,

1:09:54

I will feel loved if we

1:09:56

go hiking together. etc. So, you

1:09:58

know, we've grown familiar with the idea

1:10:01

of love languages, but it's really love

1:10:03

nations, love universes, that we could be

1:10:05

on different planets when it comes to

1:10:08

that. So we definitely need to check

1:10:10

in on what the destination is.

1:10:12

And that probably changes as well

1:10:14

in long-term relationships, you know, what makes

1:10:16

a person feel loved in that. And

1:10:19

this is very, very difficult and very

1:10:21

faithful that... people are changing and the

1:10:23

most horrific breakups that I've seen

1:10:25

are breakups where two people really

1:10:27

were on the same page and without

1:10:30

anyone being evil one person did start

1:10:32

to evolve in another way and this

1:10:34

is something we can never insulate ourselves

1:10:37

from totally and this affects particularly

1:10:39

young couples you know because there's

1:10:41

more of life. there's more room for

1:10:43

change. You change more. So you know,

1:10:45

you get these, you know, lovely couples

1:10:48

who meet at 20 and things are

1:10:50

just, you know, they have a blissful

1:10:52

eight years. And then genuinely something

1:10:54

starts to tug in another direction

1:10:56

and they become... Maybe one person starts

1:10:59

to want something and it's agonizing. And

1:11:01

then there perhaps won't be a similar

1:11:03

level of evolution again in that person's

1:11:06

life. So the person who went

1:11:08

off at 28, by the time

1:11:10

they're 35 or 45 or 55, they'll

1:11:12

have quite a stable view. But between

1:11:14

20 and 28, yeah, there really was

1:11:17

a significant change and that really did

1:11:19

require the end of a relationship.

1:11:21

And on that as a final

1:11:23

thing, how does one know when it's

1:11:25

time to throw in the towel and

1:11:28

they perhaps have evolved in a different

1:11:30

direction and the relationship is just no

1:11:32

longer what it used to be in

1:11:35

not the place that they're supposed

1:11:37

to be versus this is time

1:11:39

to really work on myself and for

1:11:41

us to work on the relationship to

1:11:43

bring us back together? But if you're

1:11:46

able to ask all these questions with

1:11:48

a partner, that's a very good

1:11:50

place to be. The horrific things

1:11:52

of many heart breaks, many endings of

1:11:54

relationships is that there isn't a chance

1:11:57

to talk. There isn't a chance to

1:11:59

explore. The thought processes have gone on

1:12:01

in private. Maybe even the people

1:12:04

involved can't understand themselves. They're just

1:12:06

impelled in one direction or another. And

1:12:08

that is agony because... It's one thing

1:12:10

to be left. It's another thing to

1:12:13

be left for reasons you don't know.

1:12:15

I think if you know why a

1:12:17

relationship has come to an properly

1:12:19

no, I don't just mean, you

1:12:21

know, I need more space when it's

1:12:24

not really, it doesn't sound convincing. If

1:12:26

we have a proper explanation, we are

1:12:28

spared months, years of agony. We may

1:12:31

still be in pain for a

1:12:33

while, but my goodness, the pain

1:12:35

is less than mystery. Not knowing. Not

1:12:37

knowing is horrible. If you're going to

1:12:39

leave somebody, for goodness sake, do them

1:12:42

the honor of explaining as far as

1:12:44

possible why. Because otherwise they're going

1:12:46

to be up for months in

1:12:48

the early hours. And it will also

1:12:50

impact their future relationships. Well, because it's

1:12:53

because they won't know. They won't know,

1:12:55

well, what was it that I did?

1:12:57

What was it that I was? So

1:13:00

it will shatter not just their

1:13:02

confidence in themselves, but their confidence

1:13:04

in human relationships more broadly. So there's

1:13:06

nothing, often people are, often the enemy

1:13:08

here is an embarrassment. Oh, God, it's

1:13:11

so embarrassing. I'm going to break up

1:13:13

with somebody. So you just want

1:13:15

to get it done with and

1:13:17

run away and, you know, bury your

1:13:19

head in the sand. There's nothing embarrassing

1:13:22

about realizing that you don't want to

1:13:24

be with somebody. It happens. It's awkward.

1:13:26

But really, it's the minor problem

1:13:28

next to the major problem, which

1:13:30

you may be unleashing, which is by

1:13:33

not doing it properly. So let's shift

1:13:35

the focus away from break up, no

1:13:37

break up, to what sort of break

1:13:40

up. A good one or a bad

1:13:42

one. And how can we leave

1:13:44

well? How can we leave well?

1:13:46

And as I say, leaving well is

1:13:48

leaving someone with a bearable but true

1:13:51

explanation of why the relationship fail. The

1:13:53

sort that will enable them to get

1:13:55

on with reality and be free.

1:13:57

You know, so often people are

1:13:59

chained by their X through mystery. whether

1:14:02

willingly or not, that they're enmeshed in

1:14:04

a kind of labyrinthine structure that's created

1:14:07

unnecessarily, totally unnecessarily, by mystery. So as

1:14:09

I say, anyone watching, if you're thinking

1:14:11

of breaking up or have broken

1:14:13

up, do your partner or ex-partner

1:14:15

the honour of setting them free? And

1:14:18

what sets them free is the truth.

1:14:20

It's a beautiful place to end. Thank

1:14:22

you. Well, thank you so much. This

1:14:25

has been... such a delightful conversation.

1:14:27

I knew that it would be

1:14:29

and I think it's going to be

1:14:31

super useful for our audience. So pleased,

1:14:33

thank you. Thank you so much for

1:14:36

listening to this first episode of Letters

1:14:38

to Venus. I hope that you

1:14:40

enjoyed it. I feel like there

1:14:42

were so many piles of wisdom. He

1:14:44

is, and I is so wise, so

1:14:47

it was a true joy to get

1:14:49

him on to this... show because I

1:14:51

mean there is no one greater to

1:14:54

speak to you in the realms

1:14:56

of love and a few of

1:14:58

my personal takeaways were realizing that the

1:15:00

arena of love is a dangerous place

1:15:02

to be. The threat and the possibility

1:15:05

of heartbreak is high and it's something

1:15:07

that's incredibly challenging and we don't

1:15:09

have the tools for doing so.

1:15:11

We don't have the tools or the...

1:15:13

experience necessarily to know how to navigate

1:15:16

matters of the heart. And I really

1:15:18

loved how he approached that, that this

1:15:20

is something that is a learnt

1:15:22

skill, and it's also something that

1:15:24

we are all vulnerable to. This idea

1:15:27

that no matter who you are, what

1:15:29

you've achieved... in life, how how

1:15:31

wise or successful

1:15:34

you may be it

1:15:36

it comes to

1:15:38

matters of the

1:15:40

heart. We are all

1:15:42

fragile little beings. So

1:15:45

thank you so

1:15:47

much for listening to

1:15:49

this episode of

1:15:51

Letters to Venus.

1:15:53

of If you wish

1:15:56

to dive deeper

1:15:58

with me deeper with me

1:16:00

of the heart, we

1:16:03

are doing the

1:16:05

Letters to Venus

1:16:07

Venus course go go this

1:16:09

podcast series. Spaces

1:16:12

are limited, it is

1:16:14

time time sensitive. going

1:16:16

to be live webinars.

1:16:19

to be live you

1:16:21

guys want to

1:16:23

sign up, head to

1:16:25

to sign up .uk, and

1:16:27

we will send you

1:16:30

all the information. you

1:16:32

all the I cannot

1:16:34

wait to see

1:16:36

you there, so

1:16:38

hopefully you'll get a

1:16:41

space get a we'll

1:16:43

get to learn the

1:16:45

skills that are

1:16:47

necessary to create

1:16:49

true intimacy and

1:16:52

beautiful partnerships.