0:00

For Pacifica Radio,

0:02

January the 9th,

0:05

2025, I'm Scott Horton.

0:07

This is Anti-War Radio.

0:10

All right, shall welcome

0:12

the show. It is

0:14

Anti-War Radio. I'm your

0:16

host, Scott Horton. I'm

0:19

the editorial director of Anti-War.com,

0:21

and I'm the author of

0:23

the new book, Provote. how

0:25

Washington started the new Cold

0:27

War with Russia and the

0:29

catastrophe in Ukraine. You can

0:31

find my full interview archive

0:34

more than 6,000 of them

0:36

now going back to 2003

0:38

at Scott Horton.org and at

0:40

YouTube.com/Scott Horton show and all the

0:42

other podcatchers and video sites just

0:44

look for the Scott Horton show there. And

0:46

you can follow me on X if you dare

0:49

at Scott Horton show. All right introducing

0:51

this week's guest. It's the great

0:53

journals Lindsay Snell. And her YouTube

0:55

channel is called Things Aren't Great.

0:58

And that's it too. YouTube.com/things

1:00

aren't great. Welcome to the

1:02

show. How are you doing,

1:04

Lizzie? Thanks. I'm great. How are

1:06

you? I'm doing great. How are you?

1:08

I'm doing great. I really appreciate you

1:10

joining us. And little do you know,

1:12

but I've been a big fan of

1:15

your journalism for many years now. You

1:17

were really great on the dirty war

1:19

in Syria back 10 years ago. And

1:21

I know that you are just completely

1:23

on top of what's going on with

1:26

the overthrow of the government in Damascus

1:28

and other regional issues as well. So

1:30

I was hoping we could start

1:32

with just your broad assessment, if

1:34

you could please, about recent events

1:36

in Syria and what you think

1:38

it's going to mean, particularly for the

1:40

West. Well, I think that the fall of

1:42

the side was a complete surprise to

1:44

almost everyone. including you

1:47

know the former free Syrian

1:49

army now Turkish back Syrian

1:51

national army mercenaries who are

1:53

the Syrian opposition who aren't

1:55

al-qaeda races basically, they were

1:57

all completely shocked. So, um,

2:00

sweet, surprise offensive. And

2:02

unfortunately now the country is

2:04

almost entirely controlled by

2:06

the former al-qaeda affiliate,

2:08

Hayatoreo Shen. So now that's

2:11

interesting. And I take responsibility

2:13

too, especially after October the 7th

2:15

of 23, all of us interested

2:18

in these topics should have immediately

2:20

gone to, wow, I wonder what's going

2:22

to happen in the Idlib province when

2:24

they try to break out of their

2:26

pen and pull the same stunt. And

2:29

then the answer was, well, Hezbollah

2:31

and Iran aren't there to help. And

2:33

so they're screwed, I guess. Yeah, not

2:35

only Hezbollah in Iran, but also

2:37

Russia. And you know, there's even

2:40

a small contingent of peacekeepers, or

2:42

there were, in Aleppo, and the Russians,

2:44

the Armenians, they all left days

2:46

before this started. Not only that,

2:48

but they were told to prepare as much

2:51

as a week before. So I mean,

2:53

everyone knew, I mean, I think people knew

2:55

right before. And it was just

2:57

a complete abandonment of Assad,

2:59

complete pull out. There was no one

3:01

left to stop. I'll kind of basically.

3:03

Yeah. So I guess, I mean, Hezbollah obviously

3:05

have their own problems and same

3:07

with the Russians. The Iranians and

3:09

the Iraqi Shiites, they might have

3:11

helped, but they would have needed

3:13

more time essentially to mobilize and

3:15

get in there when the whole

3:17

thing, from the breakout of Idlib to

3:19

the sacking of Damascus, took what, two

3:22

weeks, two and a half week, something

3:24

like that? Yeah, I think it was

3:26

under two weeks actually, 11 days

3:28

basically. Yeah. So you could see how

3:31

even if the Ayatola or both Ayatolas

3:33

in Iraq and Iran, if they really

3:35

wanted to send their guys, they just

3:38

didn't have the time, I guess. Yeah, I

3:40

mean, I think that there were

3:42

there were discussions. Hashdoshabi, who are

3:44

the Iranian militias in Iraq, I

3:46

think we're planning on sending

3:49

fighters, but they were strongly

3:51

mourned Nazi. I don't know if

3:53

I would. call this, ETS breaking

3:55

out of their penitent web, because

3:57

I think that this was undoubtedly

3:59

Western engineers. basically just handing

4:01

the country to HHS. I mean, there

4:03

was no, there's no way that this

4:05

would have happened without the complicity

4:08

of the West. Okay, so, all right, wait,

4:10

hold that thought one second. Because I

4:12

want to go back to that, we're going

4:14

to do a deep study on how things

4:16

got that way, but let me just hit

4:18

you with the sort of kind of

4:20

surface critique that I'm sure you're familiar

4:23

with, which is that, look, if

4:25

the government fell, it must because

4:27

he didn't have the popular support.

4:29

to stay in power. He had to rely on

4:31

Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah to prop

4:33

him up, then maybe the good guys

4:36

won here. Lindsay, what about that?

4:38

I think he definitely didn't have

4:40

the popular support and was

4:42

essentially a puppet by the

4:45

end, completely controlled by Russia and

4:47

Iran. And of course, like the Syrian

4:49

military was in shambles,

4:51

just completely undermanned, underfunded

4:54

and underfunded and

4:56

under-armed, but... There were no good guys

4:58

to step in and take over. It was just

5:01

handing it for one dictatorship

5:03

to a Islamic dictatorship, basically.

5:05

Well, and I think that's the important

5:07

point right there is, you know,

5:09

in, of course, our government's major

5:11

narratives here, there's the good

5:13

guys and the bad guys. And if you're

5:16

not on the side of the good guys

5:18

and you're on the side of the bad

5:20

guys, we can see the way that they

5:22

talk about Tulsi Gabbard pretending

5:24

somehow she had some kind of...

5:26

personal loyalty to Bishar al-Assad or

5:28

to Vladimir Putin that somehow was

5:31

transferred down to Assad when in

5:33

fact all that happens and everybody

5:35

knows is all that happened

5:37

is that she was in Iraq War two

5:39

and so when they told her that the

5:42

Sunni insurgency are now the good guys

5:44

when they're on the Syrian side of

5:46

the line she just wasn't willing to

5:48

roll over so easily it was all

5:50

it was but the way that they

5:52

put it. you know, Barry Weiss I

5:55

think summed up the point of view

5:57

of the entire American foreign policy and

5:59

media establishment. She's just a sod's tote,

6:01

even though Barry Weiss didn't know what

6:03

tote meant. She kind of had an

6:06

inkling. And so that's the way that

6:08

they say it. One side is good

6:10

and the other side is bad. And

6:12

you're saying, well, no, it's one dictatorship

6:15

being swapped out for another,

6:17

huh? Exactly. And I'm very

6:19

personally familiar with this

6:21

vilification of sort of telling the

6:24

truth. I was kidnapped by this

6:26

group, but Haya Tariosha. And so

6:28

after I escaped and I got out and I wrote

6:30

a piece about it and I said in the piece,

6:32

you know, Russia is bombing civilians,

6:34

the Syrian government is bombing civilians,

6:37

that's happening, but these these rebels

6:39

have now been completely co-opted by the

6:41

al-Qaeda affiliate and they're enforcing

6:43

this brutal Sharia law in the

6:45

areas that they control, it's only getting

6:47

worse. And I was immediately vilified by

6:50

all of the sort of free Syrian

6:52

army loving Western journalists who said

6:54

I was hurting the cause essentially by

6:56

telling the truth about what these

6:58

rebels and these rebels and who

7:01

they'd become. So here's where we

7:03

go back to 10 years ago. I like to

7:05

make the analogy that when W.

7:07

Bush 20 years ago invaded

7:09

Iraq, just imagine if Saddam

7:11

Hussein had been in the middle

7:14

of trying to put down not

7:16

a Shiite uprising, but a bin

7:18

Ladenite insurgency, a radical Sunni insurgency

7:21

led by bin Ladenite suicide bombers.

7:23

And then W. Bush had decided

7:25

to invade and overthrow him in

7:28

the middle of that. That was

7:30

essentially what Barack Obama was doing.

7:32

Here this guy is putting down

7:34

an insurrection that is led by

7:36

Osama bin Laden's men. And the

7:39

question is, the only question was,

7:41

10 years ago, why won't Obama

7:43

do more to help the terrorists

7:45

win? And the basic background, I

7:47

say this every day, but nobody

7:49

ever seems to catch on. It's that

7:51

W. Bush gave Iraq to

7:53

the Shiites. So now they had to

7:56

try to take Syria away from

7:58

them. That's all it was. is

8:00

Iran's allies, the Alawites, who helped

8:02

them to back Hezbollah, their enemies

8:04

of the Israelis. So even though

8:07

it wasn't Hezbollah that knocked our

8:09

towers down, our government is

8:11

more loyal to Israel. Hell, they

8:14

hit the Pentagon even. So America

8:16

prefers al-Qaeda because Israel prefers

8:19

al-Qaeda. What am I missing?

8:21

And nothing, that's absolutely

8:23

right. I mean, Israel was

8:25

treating al-Qaeda fighters in its

8:28

hospitals. and directly supporting other

8:30

still extremist factions of the

8:32

free Syrian army. So, I mean,

8:34

there's really no question. And of

8:36

course, it was Netanyahu and his

8:39

neo-conservative agents in America that had

8:41

the United States get rid of

8:43

Saddam in the first place, causing

8:45

this massive increase in Iranian power

8:48

that then necessitated the dirty war

8:50

for al-Qaeda 10 years ago, which as

8:52

we all remember everybody, remember they

8:54

went east. And they sacked Western

8:56

Iraq and they created the Islamic

8:59

State caliphate. This time they went west

9:01

and they sacked Damascus, but I guess

9:03

that's a good question for you, Lindsay.

9:05

Do you think that they're coming back

9:07

to Western Iraq? I don't think at this

9:09

point. At this point, they seem to be

9:11

completely towing the line and doing what the

9:13

West wants. And I think that there's the

9:16

point to stay in their little area for

9:18

now. I mean, they're not even saying anything

9:20

when Israel is taking Israel. Israel

9:22

where the weapons depots are so

9:24

I think they're just completely

9:27

playing their part as Western puppets

9:29

essentially. All right now I know

9:32

that a huge part of Bin Laden and

9:34

his men's motive for attack in the

9:36

United States was US support for

9:38

Israel and as we just

9:40

talked about we understand why Israel

9:43

prefers al-Qaeda in Syria to the

9:45

Shiites because the Shiites back Hezbollah

9:47

and that's their bigger worry I

9:49

guess. But... I admit I have a

9:52

little bit of trouble understanding why

9:54

Al-Qaeda is so cooperative with

9:56

Zionist goals. You would think,

9:58

for example, that... Jolani, the

10:00

leader of al-Qaeda in Syria now,

10:02

the leader of the government there now,

10:04

that by cow-towing to Israel so

10:07

much that he would be completely

10:09

destroying his legitimacy with his own

10:11

guys and even risking a coup from

10:13

completely cow-towing. And again,

10:15

I understand that the Israelis

10:17

are supporting him, but then again,

10:20

al-Qaeda doesn't mind bite in the

10:22

hand that feeds him as we've seen.

10:24

I think that an important series

10:26

of events was a jolani sort

10:28

of consolidation of power. where he

10:30

systematically took out everyone who was

10:32

like a bury against his burgeoning

10:34

relationship with the West and sort

10:37

of willingness to do what the

10:39

West wanted. So he basically took

10:41

out anyone who would be opposing him

10:43

now. That's not to say, no one knows the

10:45

real number of HHS fighters, but at

10:47

least 10,000, let's say. And most of

10:49

them are hardline Islamists who are not

10:52

going to be okay in the future

10:54

with continuing this sort of like

10:56

Western puppet show, I don't think. Yeah,

10:58

I keep wondering. how long before one

11:00

of his own guys kills him for

11:03

being such an obvious cell out wearing

11:05

a three-piece suit and not shaving

11:07

it off but certainly trimming his

11:10

beard and and you know it was a

11:12

few years ago hmm three or four or

11:14

five years ago I guess that Martin

11:16

Smith at PBS frontline did

11:18

a special all about jolani and

11:21

helping to rehabilitate him it

11:23

was clear that this was

11:25

an American and Turkish public

11:27

relations campaign to remake the guy

11:29

and put him back out there and

11:31

I barbecue the hell out of Martin Smith

11:33

for his acquiescence with this plan on

11:35

this radio show at the time and

11:37

it was funny as soon as the

11:39

show was over he goes God dang

11:41

what is this Fox News I was

11:43

like dude Fox News agrees with you

11:45

about supporting al-Qaeda in Syria you're saying

11:47

it's Fox News because I grilled you

11:49

about your treason? How in the world

11:52

can people forget? Who's zoom and who

11:54

here? Who blew up whose towers in the

11:56

past here? You know, and by the way,

11:58

it wasn't just September 11th. They were

12:00

killing Americans all through the 1990s

12:02

before September 11th too. And of

12:05

course, where the vanguard, the very

12:07

worst part of the Sunni insurgency,

12:09

that killed 4,000 out of the

12:12

4,500 Americans who died

12:14

in Iraq War II, which it's

12:16

not their fault that the Americans

12:18

were there, but still is true

12:20

about them and their history. And

12:22

in fact, Lindsay, isn't that

12:24

where Abu Muhammad al-Julani comes from,

12:26

a Rock War II? Yeah. which

12:28

that's just al-qaeda in Iraq,

12:31

Zarkawi, and the suicide bombers,

12:33

right? Bin Laden, Smith. Yep, and

12:35

actually it was even before

12:37

the PBS special on Jolani

12:39

for years. These Western think

12:41

tanks, you know, Atlantic Council,

12:43

Middle East Institute, have been slowly

12:45

trying to whitewash Japanese throughout

12:47

HTS. I mean, while they

12:49

were still stoning women to

12:51

death for adultery and blasphemy

12:53

in Idlib, you had like...

12:55

Atlanta Council writing good things

12:57

about Giuliani and their organization

12:59

and their discipline and it's just

13:02

been such a long Ridiculous process

13:04

and you know someone watching it.

13:06

I'm still shocked that this is

13:08

the result even though that was clearly

13:10

the plan Yeah, yeah, totally agree and

13:12

for people doubtful I mean go

13:14

and just do a search go

13:16

site colon foreign affairs.com the journal

13:18

of the Council on Foreign

13:21

Relations, the center of the

13:23

American foreign policy establishment since

13:25

World War I, and they've got no

13:27

less than four articles about how Al-Qaeda

13:30

are the good guys now. One of

13:32

them is called accepting Al-Qaeda,

13:34

and there are three or four

13:36

more about, oh, and Jayshal Islam

13:38

and whatever, naming other bin Ladenite

13:40

militias that were fighting at that

13:42

same time. And again, just because

13:44

they think the Shiites are worse, but

13:47

so... Well, and I guess let's get

13:49

to this because you already mentioned

13:51

how you don't dispute the idea of

13:53

the fact that Bishar al-Assad ran

13:55

a hereditary dictatorship and

13:57

an incredibly violent one.

14:00

Do you think overall that it's

14:02

certain that the new al-Qaeda under

14:04

American and Turkish public relations

14:07

and even of you know

14:09

military and intelligence control that

14:12

they could possibly be less worse

14:14

at least as long as Giuliani's

14:16

in power than the Assad regime

14:18

for overall for the health of

14:21

the population of Syria? Certainly that's

14:23

the narrative on TV. Absolutely,

14:25

absolutely. I mean, I think one of the

14:27

factors that would really affect that would be

14:30

the U.S. sanctions, because once those are lifted,

14:32

and I think it's pretty much a foregone

14:34

conclusion that they will be, I mean, this

14:36

is a lot of what made, you know,

14:38

not just, not just aside dictatorship and, you

14:40

know, the macabre and the secret

14:42

police and just the sort of oppressive

14:45

atmosphere, it was also the U.S. sanctions

14:47

that were just completely strangling

14:49

the average Syrian. So I think that that's

14:51

already easing up and this is also what

14:54

makes this look really Western engineered

14:56

is that immediately each TS like brought fuel

14:58

and they brought you know more electricity and

15:01

they brought food and everything was cheaper and

15:03

there are Turkish products and all the stores

15:05

now and they can use other currencies when

15:07

that was a big prime and we under

15:10

the Assad regime. So I think that it's going

15:12

to look a lot nicer and be a lot easier

15:14

at the beginning but the oppressive aspects

15:16

are just going to change. Instead of

15:19

it, instead of, you know, the Assad regime

15:21

had issues with Kurdish independence

15:23

and Kurdish education, now

15:25

it's going to be against the

15:27

aloeates, against the Christians, you know,

15:30

the minorities that were protected under

15:32

the Assad regime won't be. They'll

15:34

be the ones that are targeted under

15:37

HTS. Well, and so that's a huge

15:39

point, right, that a lot of the

15:41

problems of the Assad regime can actually

15:43

be pinned at the feet of the

15:45

Americans and our European allies and our

15:47

Gulf allies for not just the dirty

15:50

war ten years ago but the ongoing

15:52

economic war, the occupation of the East

15:54

by American forces and the seizing of

15:57

their oil and their grain resources and

15:59

all the... to this, that then I

16:01

could see why, yeah, even the Al-Qaeda guys

16:03

would get the credit when economic

16:06

life gets started again, when

16:08

really it's Joe Biden finally

16:10

taking his boot off their neck a

16:12

little bit is all. Exactly. And

16:14

I mean, I guess that's the point of

16:16

sanctions. I mean, they were,

16:18

the sanctions weren't hurting the Assad

16:20

regime or any of the elites. They

16:23

were hurting the average Syrians. And I

16:25

mean, now we're going to see the

16:27

reversal of that a bit. Oh, I've

16:29

got to. We used to always argue

16:31

that this doesn't work, right? They tried

16:33

this against Saddam Hussein, these sanctions. They

16:36

try this against the Russians until they'll

16:38

give in and overthrow the guy we

16:40

don't like for us. And now here's

16:42

an example of it. Oh no, it worked.

16:44

God, I mean, it works, but it's like

16:46

an image thing. Like I don't think they

16:48

were going to take us out regardless. I

16:51

don't think the sanctions were the deciding

16:53

factor in this. It was just, you

16:55

know, you know, a decade of absolute

16:57

cruelty against the Syrian people. It's

16:59

such a crazy thing to use. But

17:01

yeah, I'm sure that this will be

17:03

a case study and why sanctions work

17:06

and should be used against, you know,

17:08

dictators who don't do what the West

17:10

wants. What a world. Hey, let me

17:12

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17:14

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17:17

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17:19

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17:21

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17:28

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17:30

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17:33

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17:35

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17:37

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17:39

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17:42

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17:44

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17:46

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17:50

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take them up on. So go

19:48

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20:01

That's Tuttletwins.com/10 years. is brought to

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Prime to learn more. The great

20:30

Lindsay Snell, she is such

20:32

a great independent journalist covering the

20:34

Middle East, and for the last

20:37

decade or so there, and the Caucasus

20:39

too, and I'm so glad that I have

20:41

the opportunity to ask a

20:43

real expert about the relationship between

20:46

Armenia and Azerbaijan. Of

20:48

course, there's a huge Armenian

20:50

population in Los Angeles

20:52

that are extremely interested

20:54

in this subject, and

20:56

on this show we've

20:58

covered... the fate of

21:00

Nagorno-Karabakh over the years going back,

21:02

but of course in the fall

21:04

of 23, Azerbaijan finally

21:06

cleansed that little Armenian

21:09

enclave of Artsakh

21:12

or Nagorno-Karabakh there. But

21:14

then, as we talked about on the

21:16

show, we have a similar

21:18

but opposite situation where

21:20

there's actually a piece

21:23

of Azerbaijan that is

21:25

separated by part of Armenia.

21:27

and they're demanding an easement

21:29

a corridor or worse. And

21:32

that is surprising, kind of, when

21:34

you consider how many

21:36

Armenian Americans there are

21:38

and how political they are

21:40

and how many, I've actually

21:42

talked to some Armenian Americans

21:44

about this Lindsay who explained

21:46

to me how they have

21:48

like severe. populations in

21:51

various parts, not just in Los

21:53

Angeles, but I think, you know,

21:55

some towns in Ohio were mentioned

21:57

or wherever there are enclaves of

21:59

Armenian Americans who exercise and try

22:01

very hard to exercise political influence

22:03

as best as they can, but

22:05

that's just nothing compared to the

22:08

fact that Azerbaijan hosts the BTC

22:10

pipeline. And Aliyev, of course, is

22:12

compliant with American goals, speaking of

22:15

hereditary dictatorships. So can you tell

22:17

us a little bit about Azerbaijan

22:19

and the dictator there and his

22:21

plans for Armenia now? So in 2020,

22:24

of course, Azerbaijan launched war

22:26

on Armenia and the enclave

22:28

of Nagorno-Karabakh and has launched

22:30

subsequent attacks until finally, like

22:32

you said, ethnically cleansing it in

22:34

the fall of the 2023. But

22:36

really, Azerbaijan's goal is to

22:39

take all of Armenia. Azerbaijan

22:41

has this initiative called the

22:43

Western Azerbaijan community, which is,

22:45

Azerbaijanis who used to live in

22:48

Armenian territory. And they say that

22:50

it's historically all Azerbaijani land, all

22:52

of our media is historically Azerbaijani

22:54

land, and as such, they have a

22:56

right to it. They've right to go back there.

22:58

And as far as the enclave that you

23:01

were talking about, it's the Azerbaijani Nakijban,

23:03

which is sort of like, our media

23:05

is basically a wedge between Azerbaijan Nakijigan,

23:08

and Azerbaijan's goal, and actually

23:10

Turkey's goal as well, is to build

23:12

what they want to call the zingazor

23:14

corridor, which will bisect Armenia, essentially. and

23:17

connect Azerbaijan to Nohibon.

23:19

But Azerbaijan demands that

23:21

its own military be sort of

23:23

stationed on this road, no Armenian

23:26

checkpoints, no Armenian military,

23:28

meaning that it's going to

23:30

be an Azerbaijani occupation bisecting

23:33

the country of Armenia. This

23:35

is another thing that is very good

23:37

for the West, that the West

23:39

is very supportive of, because the goal

23:42

is to make a trade route that

23:44

can exclude Russia and Iran. Now,

23:46

I'm not very good at

23:48

this. I tried to write about

23:50

this in my recent book, and

23:52

I hope I got this right.

23:55

I think I was creeping

23:57

off of experts who had

23:59

it right. due to some intervention,

24:01

but also just decisions made by

24:03

the Armenian government. They essentially

24:06

sacrificed their relationship with Russia, for

24:08

they hoped a better one with

24:10

the United States, but they got

24:12

nothing out of it here. And essentially

24:15

they sacrificed their Russian protection

24:17

in exchange for nothing from

24:19

the United States. Is that

24:21

correct? Yeah, that's correct. And also

24:23

the relationship between Russia and

24:26

Azerbaijan is ongoing, and it's

24:28

pretty actually crazy. Once the

24:30

war Ukraine started and the EU

24:32

made a big push to stop using

24:34

Russian oil, they turned to a servogen

24:36

as one of their suppliers. The serva

24:38

John in turn didn't have the

24:40

capacity to supply Europe in the

24:43

quantities they needed. So it began

24:45

massively increasing its imports of Russian

24:47

gas. So essentially Europe is buying

24:50

laundered Russian gas from the serva

24:52

John at a markup and you

24:54

know I live in Germany were

24:56

just screwed economically from this. It's been

24:58

years of sort of economic degradation

25:01

as a result of not

25:03

wanting to buy Russian gas, but still

25:05

buying Russian gas to deserve a

25:07

job, which is a dictatorship, authoritarian

25:10

governments, some of the worst

25:12

press freedoms in the world, they disappear,

25:15

dissidents, political critics.

25:17

It's horrible. It's just

25:19

absolutely absurd. And now, I read a

25:21

thing that it wasn't quite specific enough

25:23

in its claims. I think it

25:25

was even at the Woodrow Wilson

25:28

Center website. Oh, I think. And they

25:30

weren't quite specific on

25:32

this, but the implication, I

25:34

think, was that it was

25:36

Russian oil was being piped

25:38

through the BTC pipeline. Is

25:40

that correct? Can you verify

25:43

that? I'm not sure. I think

25:45

that the Azerbaijani state oil

25:47

company, SOCAR, is completely opaque.

25:49

But there's a refinery and

25:52

is mere, I think, is

25:54

mere turkey. That's handling

25:56

a... A lot of the, I guess a lot

25:58

of the. gas that's coming

26:01

to Europe and almost all of

26:03

it, 90% of it or something

26:05

is Russian oil that's come

26:07

from Azerbaijan. So it's just...

26:10

I mean it's literally a

26:12

liquid so it's a literal

26:14

and figurative liquid asset and

26:17

completely fungible so it might as

26:19

well be Russian oil coming through

26:21

the BTC even if it's going by

26:23

truck or a different pipeline. still,

26:25

the fact that the West is

26:27

buying Russian oil through Azerbaijan, when

26:29

the whole point of American support

26:32

for Aliyev in the first place is

26:34

so that we have that pipeline to

26:36

keep the Russians out, to freeze them

26:38

out. Totally, and as you were saying, so

26:40

Armenia has essentially sabotaged its

26:42

relationship with Russia and gotten

26:45

rid of a lot of the Russian forces

26:47

that were sort of providing some

26:49

aspects of security in their borders

26:51

and such. to sort of appease the

26:54

West, but again, like you said, they're

26:56

not getting anything out of it. And

26:58

actually, the US, the West, is definitely

27:00

supporting the Serbichon more than

27:02

Armenia, and we'll continue to do

27:04

so. I mean, I don't think

27:06

America cares if Serbichon and Turkey

27:08

build a corridor through Armenia and

27:11

completely kill the security structure of

27:13

Armenia. It's more important to them

27:15

that Russian influence is reduced in

27:17

the region. Well now, so all you

27:19

have's plan overall. That is audience,

27:21

again, the hereditary dictator,

27:23

American supported Satrap in

27:26

Azerbaijan. His goal of ultimately

27:28

taking all of Armenia, does he have

27:30

a plan for where he is to

27:32

cleanse all the Armenians to or he

27:35

just plans on keeping them and kidnapping

27:37

them? Well, the stated mission now

27:39

is that they'll peacefully coexist.

27:41

So, like, I mentioned the

27:43

Western Reserve of John Community,

27:46

which... how we have created shortly after

27:48

the war in 2020. And it's

27:50

basically getting bigger and bigger and

27:53

they've like paid for it to

27:55

have a TV station. They're sending

27:57

wrecks to the UN at COP29

27:59

that climate change conference in

28:01

Azerbaijan, there was a big Western

28:03

Azerbaijan presence. So I mean, they're working

28:06

overtime to sort of legitimize this group,

28:08

which is essentially claimed to all of

28:10

Armenia. And what Aliab says is now

28:12

he wants Prime Minister Bichinian and

28:15

Armenia to receive a delegation

28:17

of Western Azerbaijani officials to

28:19

come and talk about how to peacefully coexist

28:21

in the return of the Azerbaijanis

28:23

who used to live in Armenia. I mean,

28:26

again, the Gorda Karabakh

28:28

is now completely, completely

28:30

ethnically cleansed of Armenians.

28:32

And there's no right of return

28:34

for them. Their homes and their

28:36

businesses have already been taken and

28:39

given away. So I mean, it's just

28:41

a slow, very Western-friendly

28:43

process of additional ethnic

28:45

cleansing. I mean, that's

28:47

really Elliot's plan is just

28:49

to sort of say one thing and do

28:51

another. So now he says they want dialogue

28:54

and peace. but really he just

28:56

wants more of a foothold in our

28:58

media. And then he'll launch two attacks

29:00

and again the West will do nothing,

29:02

say nothing. And how close is he

29:05

to Erdogan in Turkey? They're basically

29:07

the same country. I mean I would

29:09

say if Azerbaijan doesn't have the

29:11

resources it does, it would be a

29:13

satellite in Turkey, but Azerbaijan is

29:16

still basically subservient

29:18

to Turkey in all ways. Okay, so

29:20

this takes us back to Syria.

29:22

I still got some wonderings there.

29:24

I just wonder, what do you

29:26

think that means for the near-term

29:29

future here? I don't think there's

29:31

any real alternative in Syria now,

29:33

and I think that was by

29:35

design. I think, honestly, once the

29:38

war in Syria started 2012,

29:40

basically, there were three different

29:42

groups, sort of discounting the

29:45

currents for right now, but the

29:47

three Syrian army... and then there was

29:49

Nussra, Al-Qaeda, and ISIS. I

29:51

think that the free Syrian army

29:53

proved to be too undisciplined and

29:56

too chaotic and constant in fighting,

29:58

and so they weren't useful. the US

30:00

at some point, and Turkey took

30:02

them over, made them into mercenaries, deployed

30:04

them to Libya, deployed them

30:06

to Azerbaijan, sort of separately.

30:09

ISIS was completely unmanageable,

30:11

crazy, dangerous, and Al-Qaeda was

30:13

the most disciplined and the

30:16

most manageable, the most malleable,

30:18

the most useful to the last.

30:20

Because they're so disciplined, they're

30:22

so sort of together. I think that's

30:25

why. They're now the rulers of

30:27

Syria, but I think that's why they're

30:29

also going to be a huge danger

30:31

in the future once you know

30:33

CNN leaves Damascus and people aren't

30:36

paying attention anymore and they

30:38

can do al-qaeda stuff which is

30:40

I think inevitable in Syria. I think

30:42

that the future is really bleak. I

30:44

mean there's still the question of

30:47

the Kurdish controlled areas which Turkey

30:49

is again held on attacking Turkey

30:51

just the other day bombed civilians.

30:53

near the Tishoreen Dam near

30:55

Kobani and killed civilians, Turkish

30:57

airstrikes. So I think that

31:00

there's still a lot going on with

31:02

that, but in general, I think the

31:04

future is bleak and it's al-Qaeda

31:06

in Syria. Yeah. And so does that

31:08

mean in the Shiites, the Christians,

31:10

and I know there are a

31:12

few different factions and sects of

31:14

Christians there, and then even the

31:16

secular Sunnis, they ought all be

31:18

running like hell right now? Or

31:21

they already are. I wouldn't want to say that

31:23

and create panic. I mean, I talked to

31:26

a lot of, but there's a huge

31:28

Armenian community in Aleppo and Latake and

31:30

Damascus. So I talked to a lot of Armenians who

31:32

are in Aleppo and I sort of talked to them

31:34

from the start. And again, the first thing that

31:36

HHS did was come in and talk about how

31:38

much they love Christians and how they're going to

31:40

be super tolerant and, oh, look, it's a

31:42

Christmas tree. And you know, you know, they had

31:45

a, they had a HTS affiliated with a

31:47

HTS affiliated with a affiliated with a HTS affiliated

31:49

with journalists, So I mean, I think that for

31:51

a while, at least they're safe because

31:54

they have to keep the image of

31:56

being tolerant up. But if you look

31:58

at Idlib and, you know, the HHS.

32:00

stronghold and what they did to the

32:02

Christians there and I think there was

32:04

a free war population of 10,000 Christians

32:06

or something, so not many. But

32:09

after the HHS takeover of Midlith, there

32:11

were only a couple hundred left

32:13

and they're mostly very old. You

32:15

know, they stole Christian businesses and

32:17

homes. They forbade like the display

32:19

of crosses outside, they forbade church

32:21

bells, you know, priests and pastors

32:24

couldn't wear their religious clothing

32:26

outside. It's just complete depression and

32:28

I mean, I think that

32:30

that's... It's al-Qaeda, it's inevitable

32:32

that that's going to happen again.

32:34

I'm so sorry that we're out

32:37

of time. I would like to

32:39

interview you for another while or

32:41

so here. I have so many

32:43

more questions, but the YouTube channel,

32:45

everybody, is YouTube.com slash, Things Aren't

32:47

Great, with the great journalist, Lindsay

32:49

Snell. Thank you so much for

32:51

your time. Thank you. And that's

32:54

anti-war radio for today everybody. I'm

32:56

Scott Wharton, Scott Wharton.org for all

32:58

the stuff and I'm here every

33:00

Thursday from 2.30 to 3 on

33:02

KPFK, 90.7 FM in LA. See you

33:04

next week.