0:09

All right, so welcome to the Scott

0:11

Horton Show. I'm the director of

0:13

the Libertarian Institute Editorial Director of

0:15

Anti-War.com and author of Provoked, how

0:17

Washington started the new Cold War

0:19

with Russia and the catastrophe of

0:21

Ukraine. Sign up for the podcast

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feed at Scott Horton.org or Scott

0:25

Horton Show.com. I've got more than

0:27

6,000 interviews in the archive for

0:29

you there going back to 2003.

0:31

And follow me on all the

0:33

video sites and X at Scott

0:35

Horton Show. Hey you guys on

0:37

the line. I've got Thomas Edlam.

0:39

He is our William Norman

0:42

Gregerfellow at the Libertarian Institute

0:44

and he's an Austrian school

0:46

economist Just like our previous guest

0:48

Mark Thornton only he's at

0:51

our Institute the Libertarian Institute

0:53

and He writes lots of really great

0:55

stuff including this one that I really

0:58

hated in a good way. You know what

1:00

I mean? Plutocratic America's war on

1:02

the working class rest assured Thomas

1:04

not a kami But he's

1:06

got a little bit of class

1:08

war for us here. Welcome to

1:10

show Tom how you I'm doing

1:13

great Scott, you know, and that's

1:15

the thing like class war is

1:17

being waged against Regular

1:19

working Americans. That's that's my my

1:22

case in in the peace and

1:24

I don't agree with class war,

1:26

but I think we ought to

1:29

stop doing the class war which

1:31

is the point of the piece there

1:33

you know, okay, so you're a

1:35

libertarian and you're right now the

1:37

libertarian is so your case must

1:39

be it's the poor won't stop

1:42

picking on America's last persecuted minority

1:44

big business right kind of the

1:46

obvious yeah I mean a verse

1:49

I should say the it's it's

1:51

amazing you know if you go to

1:54

official libertarianism whether it's

1:56

the Cato Institute of Reason you

1:58

know they they have these slogans

2:00

of, oh, you know, the poor

2:02

have never had it so good.

2:05

None of your problems are because

2:07

someone else is a billionaire. And,

2:09

you know, in a free market

2:11

world, that would be true. But

2:13

we don't live in a free

2:16

market. We live in a plutocracy.

2:18

We live in a place where,

2:20

uh, as Matt Taibby says, you

2:22

know, he's no libertarian, but he's

2:24

not wrong. He says, we, we

2:26

live in a place where we're

2:29

preached at of sinker or sink

2:31

or swim. free marketism, but for

2:33

a select few, it's a highly

2:35

regulated and subsidized welfare state. And

2:37

that's, if you look at the

2:40

history really since 1979, since we

2:42

bailed out Chrysler, the general, how

2:44

do I put it, the general

2:46

way of looking at things is.

2:48

If a poor man goes bankrupt,

2:51

it's a recession, but if a

2:53

rich man loses his bank, it's

2:55

a crisis. And that's pretty much

2:57

how government has worked in the

2:59

last almost 50 years since the

3:02

crisis bailout. Okay, so in your

3:04

article here, you're focusing on the

3:06

difference between payroll taxes and income

3:08

taxes and so forth paid by

3:10

a guy who works for a

3:12

living. versus capital gains tax is

3:15

paid by a guy who owns

3:17

things for a living. Now, we

3:19

all, whether we're directors of non-profits

3:21

or whatever job that is, or

3:23

if we're laborers, or if we're

3:26

any other thing working for a

3:28

living, we all want to own

3:30

capital for a living someday if

3:32

we could ever save up enough

3:34

and make some smart investments. And

3:37

so... Nobody, I don't think, the

3:39

way I read your article, including

3:41

yourself, wants to... capital gains taxes

3:43

go up or disincentivize people to

3:45

invest and make money that way.

3:48

We need capital investment so people

3:50

got jobs in the first place

3:52

and and every every working stiff

3:54

ought to be able to have

3:56

an opportunity to open his own

3:58

business too and become a real

4:01

capitalist of his own as well.

4:03

So if I read you right

4:05

that you're not saying you want

4:07

those taxes to go up Then

4:09

what are you saying about taxes

4:12

and the relative nature of the

4:14

taxes between owners and workers and

4:16

how they pay here? Well, Scott,

4:18

I guess I don't hit me

4:20

with a bunch of kami clap

4:23

trap trap about how we need

4:25

a progressive income tax. No, here's

4:27

the thing. I come from a

4:29

Catholic perspective. I believe in the

4:31

idea of... from Catholic Social Teaching

4:33

of the preferential option for the

4:36

poor. Now that doesn't mean I

4:38

believe in welfare because I'm a

4:40

libertarian. I don't believe any welfare.

4:42

I think we should get rid

4:44

of all the welfare. I think

4:47

we should get rid of all

4:49

the taxes. But the question is,

4:51

well, what taxes do you get

4:53

rid of first? And, you know,

4:55

if you look at the tax

4:58

rate for the average working person,

5:00

they're actually paying more than the

5:02

billionaires. So why would you like

5:04

to Cato Institute to increase taxes

5:06

on... you know, regular middle class

5:09

and working poor people, and cut

5:11

the taxes for billionaires, wouldn't you

5:13

do it the other way around?

5:15

Why make it difficult for the

5:17

working war? Now, Tom, are you

5:19

sure that's right? Because I always

5:22

hear from especially Washington DC libertarians,

5:24

but right wingers too, that no,

5:26

only rich people pay taxes and

5:28

all the poor people are bombs

5:30

who are all getting subsidized. Right,

5:33

that's what you hear, because the

5:35

way they do it is nuanced.

5:37

manicured, curated way of looking at

5:39

things. I'm only looking at the

5:41

income tax, but if you look

5:44

at, you know, is how labor

5:46

is taxed, labor is taxed with

5:48

a floor of the FICA payroll

5:50

tax, which is Social Security and

5:52

Medicare and unemployment, not unemployment insurance,

5:55

disability insurance, that's 15.3% right off

5:57

the bat from the first dollar.

5:59

Then you add in inflation, which

6:01

is all a labor. Labor tax,

6:03

inflation is wage theft. There's no

6:05

other way of putting it. Inflation

6:08

is wage theft. You add in

6:10

two to eight percent there, depending

6:12

on the year. Then you add

6:14

in the income tax, which, yeah,

6:16

the working poor don't pay the

6:19

income tax, but they're already paying

6:21

as much as... Warren Buffett is

6:23

paying with his capital gains tax

6:25

of which Max is out at

6:27

20% they're already paying that much

6:30

if you add in inflation and

6:32

pay world taxes, but the Washington

6:34

DC think tanks, whether it's the,

6:36

you know, the conservative thing tanks

6:38

like the Heritage Foundation or the

6:41

Liberty, I'm pointing using air quotes

6:43

here, the Libertarian Institute, not the

6:45

Libertarian think tanks like the Cato

6:47

Institute, like the Cato Institute. They

6:49

only talk about the income tax.

6:51

Why, you know, for them, it's

6:54

the whole goal is to shift

6:56

more of the tax burden on

6:58

to the working war in the

7:00

middle class. And the reason for

7:02

it is that their donors are

7:05

billionaires and they're catering to their

7:07

donor class. That's what it's all

7:09

about. But if you take the

7:11

perspective of, hey, we should cut

7:13

government across the board, the first

7:16

place you should cut in my

7:18

view. are working people's taxes. That

7:20

should be the beginning. Because let's

7:22

face it, you know, the billionaires,

7:24

they're fine. They're fine. I do

7:27

want to get rid of their

7:29

taxes. I want to get rid

7:31

of their regulations. But let's take,

7:33

you know, let's make it a

7:35

priority to focus on. If we're

7:37

going to get rid of the

7:40

hurt that the state is creating,

7:42

let's start with those taxes that

7:44

are really hurting the working board,

7:46

the middle class. And the same

7:48

thing goes with subsidies. I want

7:51

to get rid of welfare. I

7:53

think welfare is bad, but I

7:55

don't focus on, you know, some

7:57

single mother on food stamps who's,

7:59

you know, working two jobs and

8:02

just can't get by and gets

8:04

a couple hundred bucks a month.

8:06

I'm focusing on... Elon Musk and

8:08

all of the other giant welfare

8:10

queens across the world. I probably

8:13

shouldn't focus on Elon Musk because

8:15

the official narrative right now is

8:17

anyone who's a dissident from the

8:19

establishment like Elon Musk is officially

8:21

an enemy of the state or

8:23

an enemy of America and we're

8:26

supposed to hate on Elon Musk.

8:28

But he is the world's largest

8:30

welfare queen. much of the rest

8:32

of Wall Street is too. But

8:34

I want to get rid of

8:37

those welfare benefits before I want

8:39

to get rid of the, at

8:41

least my focus is on getting

8:43

rid of those welfare benefits first.

8:45

Then yeah, we can we can

8:48

cut the welfare benefits for the

8:50

for the poor. Sure. And look,

8:52

we already have, yeah, we already

8:54

have this massive welfare state for

8:56

the rich and the poor, so

8:58

it makes sense that. Instead of

9:01

having progressive taxation, the way to

9:03

look at it is let's have

9:05

progressive tax cuts, the people who

9:07

need their income the most for

9:09

keeping their family together and keeping

9:12

the heat on and all of

9:14

that, they get the tax relief

9:16

first and the people who need

9:18

the tax relief the least get

9:20

at last. Although, as you're saying,

9:23

should be everybody. You shouldn't have

9:25

to pay tax on capital gains

9:27

either. Yeah, and across the board

9:29

too. Not just the taxes. Think

9:31

about the regulations. The regulations, you

9:34

know, the Federal Reserve puts in

9:36

as far as suppressing interest rates.

9:38

Well, that Jack... up the price

9:40

of, the sticker price of real

9:42

estate. It makes getting a down

9:44

payment prohibitive for a lot of

9:47

Americans, you know, because... Now, I'm

9:49

so glad you brought that up.

9:51

I want to let you, believe

9:53

me, you're the last guest of

9:55

the day today, Tom. I'm going

9:58

to let you take all the

10:00

time you need. I want you

10:02

to talk about this, because it's

10:04

so important, because it goes back

10:06

to something you said a minute

10:09

ago about inflation, you know, because...

10:11

I learned in junior college that

10:13

inflation is really good for poor

10:15

people and working people and middle

10:17

class people because they get to

10:20

borrow in dollars and pay back

10:22

in times and that's what you

10:24

want is inflationary money. That's what

10:26

the Wizard of Oz is all

10:28

about free silver inflate the money

10:30

supply so we can pay back

10:33

our debts easier right so but

10:35

you're pointing out I mean you

10:37

just said when I was interrupting

10:39

you there you're talking about well.

10:41

You know if you already own

10:44

a house and its price goes

10:46

up maybe that's one thing but

10:48

it makes a lot harder to

10:50

get into a house So how

10:52

do you balance that or do

10:55

you at all or what? Well

10:57

part of it is think about

10:59

it. You know we like to

11:01

think of gee the poorest people

11:03

that people are in debt But

11:06

that's not true. You have to

11:08

have credit to have debt so

11:10

they're generally speaking the richest people

11:12

have the most debt and so

11:14

when inflation free his debt It

11:16

forgives the debt of the richest

11:19

people the most. You know, when

11:21

you think about it, like the,

11:23

you know, you think about the

11:25

bum in the street, you know,

11:27

he doesn't have a dime to

11:30

his name and, you know, it's,

11:32

you know, he's got the little

11:34

sign, we'll work for food. And

11:36

there was a stand-up comedian a

11:38

number of years ago. I'm still

11:41

working for the Taco Bell. I

11:43

ate seven years ago. And, you

11:45

know, that you need credit in

11:47

order to have debt. And so,

11:49

you know, with the exception of,

11:52

you know, the federal government creating

11:54

the student. debt crisis for the

11:56

most part, you know, when you

11:58

think about debt, well, one of

12:00

the biggest debtors is someone like

12:02

real estate developer like Donald Trump,

12:05

you know, you put 20% down

12:07

and, you know, he may be

12:09

worth $10 billion on net, but

12:11

he probably has more than $10

12:13

billion worth of debt. And, you

12:16

know, I love to tell this

12:18

story of this friend of mine

12:20

from Venezuela. He, uh... He's a

12:22

plasterer, which I am too. I'm

12:24

a working guy. And he came

12:27

to the United States in about,

12:29

I think it was 2015, but

12:31

a couple years before he came

12:33

to the United States, his friend

12:35

said, oh, you gotta buy a

12:37

house because the inflation's coming. And

12:40

you know, he's right out of

12:42

college and he says, oh, okay,

12:44

or whatever. So he saved up

12:46

30,000 boulevards. got a loan for

12:48

300,000 boulevards and it's like a

12:51

10 to 1 ratio back then.

12:53

So, I mean, think about it

12:55

from this, you know, he borrowed

12:57

$30,000, you know, and he bought

12:59

his house, moved to the United

13:02

States, had a family live there,

13:04

he's paying the mortgage off, it's

13:06

maybe $250, $300 a month, and

13:08

he comes to the United States

13:10

and starts working as a laborer,

13:13

even though he's got a college

13:15

degree. A couple years later, this

13:17

is only five years into his

13:19

30 year mortgage, he still owes

13:21

over 75% of the principal. So

13:23

he still owes the equivalent of

13:26

20 to 25,000 dollars of principal.

13:28

But his mortgage payments have gone

13:30

down to less than $1 a

13:32

month from over $250 a month.

13:34

And They don't know what, how

13:37

does this happen? And so he

13:39

asks his wife, well, let's see

13:41

how much it would take to

13:43

pay off the whole house, and

13:45

it was 120 something dollars. And

13:48

what had happened was hyperinflation had

13:50

taken place in Venezuela, and the

13:52

value of the boulevard became almost

13:54

zero. He's literally paying back in

13:56

dimes like in the say in

13:59

there. Right, right. In his case,

14:01

you know, he paid off the

14:03

whole mortgage for less than one

14:05

day's labor when it should have

14:07

taken, you know, more than six

14:09

months worth of labor plus interest.

14:12

And, you know, multiply that by

14:14

a thousand for a large real

14:16

estate developer. You know, they, you

14:18

know, they do much better and

14:20

this was one of my previous

14:23

articles at the Libertarian Institute, where

14:25

You know, it really helps real

14:27

estate developers, but it doesn't really

14:29

help average Americans who just want

14:31

to buy a house and live

14:34

in it. You know, the value

14:36

of the house is to live

14:38

in it. But the value of

14:40

a real estate developer is the

14:42

income you get from it and

14:45

the equity you build up. And

14:47

if you build up the equity,

14:49

two to three times faster, using

14:51

inflation, well that's better for the

14:53

real estate developer. But it's not

14:55

better for the average American. And

14:58

that's, you know, that, that, if

15:00

anything, it means that I'm opening

15:02

the preferential option for the poor

15:04

in regulations as well. Why do

15:06

we do this? Well, we do

15:09

this because there's a lobby that

15:11

wants that and benefits from it.

15:13

That's why we do it. And,

15:15

and really, we need to, as

15:17

a people, we need to wake

15:20

up and, and put a stop

15:22

to it. Yeah. Well, you know,

15:24

I saw, where Keith Knight. was

15:26

doing a thing with Joe Mullen

15:28

earlier and one of the things

15:31

Keith was talking about I may

15:33

have even got him out of

15:35

context here I just heard him

15:37

say a little bit about how

15:39

like should we be mad at

15:41

Walmart for charging less for things

15:44

because it seems like our whole

15:46

policy is built around inflating the

15:48

currency and to keep prices going

15:50

up because the last thing you

15:52

want is a deflationary spiral Tom.

15:55

where prices go down, we can't

15:57

have hard money and falling prices

15:59

because then no one will buy...

16:01

anything anymore because everyone will be

16:03

waiting for everything to get cheaper

16:06

and then so the whole economy

16:08

will shut down or something.

16:10

Yeah it's based on the the

16:12

Great Depression myth of which

16:14

where we did have deflation

16:16

for four years from 1929 to

16:18

1933 ish and you know in

16:21

a recession prices do go down

16:23

but you know when you think about

16:25

it when you think about it

16:27

we don't think of It's a bad

16:29

thing when gasoline prices go down.

16:32

You know, everybody in, you know, at the

16:34

end of the Biden administration was

16:36

bragging, see, the gas prices

16:38

have come down, and of

16:40

course now all of the Republicans

16:42

are saying, see, the gas prices

16:44

are coming down, that's a

16:47

good thing. Why is it a

16:49

bad thing if prices go down

16:51

generally across the economy? It's not.

16:53

The general tendency of an economy

16:55

is for prices to go down. I

16:58

mean, we're not used to

17:00

it because we have this

17:02

Federal Reserve inflation over the

17:04

last 110 years, 115 years.

17:06

But the general tendency

17:09

is for production to

17:11

become more efficient and

17:13

things to become more

17:15

affordable, not less affordable.

17:18

But with inflation, and

17:20

this, and again, inflation is

17:22

wage theft. it becomes less

17:25

affordable. You know, the

17:27

American worker when gold was

17:29

tied to the dollar did much

17:31

better. Even at the end, even

17:34

in the 1960s, when they

17:36

were starting inflation, they still

17:38

nominally held the dollar to

17:40

gold, the average American, the

17:42

median American, you know, the

17:45

middleest of the middle class,

17:47

did really well. I mean,

17:49

advanced. His economy. advanced and

17:51

he was able to get

17:54

a lot more. Since then,

17:56

since they, the Bretton Woods system

17:58

fell apart in 19. 71, the

18:00

middle class is stalled and so

18:02

is the poor. Now, the rich

18:04

is still getting richer and I

18:06

don't, I don't, I don't have

18:09

a problem with that. I mean,

18:11

I want the rich to get

18:13

richer, but I want the poor

18:15

in the middle class also to

18:17

get richer. And, you know, the

18:19

thing is the rich have a

18:21

way around inflation because they're usually

18:23

the first ones to get the

18:25

new inflated dollars, you know, they're

18:27

the, the government contractors, they are

18:29

the, they are the banksks. You

18:31

know a laborer or someone who

18:34

works at Walmart like you the

18:36

example you used, they're the last

18:38

ones to see it in the

18:40

economy after the prices have already

18:42

gone up. That's why labor, you

18:44

know, it was a 17th century

18:46

economist, an Irish guy, Richard Cantillon,

18:48

who talked about this, that, you

18:50

know, the, the person who benefits

18:52

from inflation. is the one who

18:54

gets the money first, the person

18:56

who is most hurt by it

18:59

is the one who gets the

19:01

money last. The one who gets

19:03

the money first is the government

19:05

and then after that the bankers

19:07

and then the contractors, they all

19:09

benefit. But the one who's hurt

19:11

is the working man who has

19:13

nothing to do but his wages.

19:15

And when you think about it,

19:17

you know, I mentioned in order

19:19

to benefit from inflation, you have

19:21

to have credit. But if you

19:23

are yourself a creditor, you lose

19:26

from inflation. I mean, you

19:28

know, unless you're a bank and

19:30

you just create that money out

19:32

of nothing in the first place

19:34

in which you don't care, right?

19:37

Well, think about it from the

19:39

perspective of, you know, if you

19:41

put your money in the bank,

19:43

why don't you, you know, the

19:45

bank pays your interest, why don't,

19:47

why doesn't everybody just put their

19:49

money in the bank and gain

19:52

money because it pays less than

19:54

the rate of inflation? does his

19:56

work and awaits his wages till

19:58

payday. He's at least... a creditor

20:00

for a week's wages and usually

20:02

a couple weeks. So he's a

20:05

creditor in that way. The poor

20:07

man who rents his home, he

20:09

is a creditor because the first

20:11

thing you go to the landlord

20:13

is he says, I want first,

20:15

last, and security deposit. He is

20:18

loaning his landlord the money before

20:20

he lives in the property. And

20:22

then when the worker does get

20:24

his wages, he's waiting for his

20:26

wages. It's being inflated and the

20:28

way. the value is taken from

20:30

him. Was he due? He puts

20:33

it in his checking account and

20:35

that also is is being taxed

20:37

by inflation. You know, he's, you

20:39

know, and just the wages themselves

20:41

are $10 trillion in our 22

20:43

trillion dollar economy. They're about 40%

20:46

of our economy. And of course,

20:48

that's a huge credit. Yeah, and

20:50

look, built into that, of course,

20:52

is the lower your wage. That

20:54

means the less stance that you

20:56

have, the weaker position you're in

20:58

to demand a cost of living

21:01

increase. And the lower skilled people

21:03

and the people who make the

21:05

lowest wages are the ones whose

21:07

jobs are more precarious. They can

21:09

be replaced. They're expendable. And so

21:11

they get their cost of living

21:14

increase last. And then I always

21:16

think of Alan Greenspan, but I'm

21:18

sure they all do this. The

21:20

chairman of the Fed will go

21:22

on TV and say... This upward

21:24

pressure on wages is causing inflation.

21:27

These poor sons of bitches who

21:29

are the last ones to get

21:31

a cost of living increase dare

21:33

the reason that prices of everything

21:35

is going up on the shelf

21:37

at your burger counter and for

21:39

a car and a house and

21:42

everything else. Right, and of course

21:44

the solution is not the leftist

21:46

solution. I mean, right now, you

21:48

know, the Democratic Party, official Democratic

21:50

Party offers workers nothing. You know,

21:52

they talk about a... minimum wage

21:55

increase but they don't really do

21:57

it. They talk about giving benefits

21:59

to people and whatever but they

22:01

don't do it. But the solution

22:03

is the free market. It's not,

22:05

oh, let's raise the minimum wage.

22:08

Well, you raise the minimum wage

22:10

and you keep inflation going, it

22:12

wouldn't make any difference. You know,

22:14

the wage would just go back

22:16

down anyway. It's, the solution is

22:18

the market and cutting taxes for

22:20

people, you know, on those margins

22:23

who really would make a, you

22:25

know, get a benefit out of

22:27

a tax cut. I mean, a

22:29

lot of people voted for Trump

22:31

because he. offered them a tax

22:33

cut and the Democrats offered them

22:36

nothing. Now the tax cut was

22:38

small for the working class. He

22:40

gave a lot to the to

22:42

the rich and let's face it

22:44

the rich do paying more taxes

22:46

cumulatively at least if not but

22:49

even if they pay a lower

22:51

percentage. But the people remembered that

22:53

they gave him Trump offered them

22:55

crumbs and that was better than

22:57

what the Democrats offered them which

22:59

were which is nothing. They said,

23:01

you'll get nothing and you'll like

23:04

it. And the, you know, the

23:06

working people tend to say no.

23:08

I mean, you like if you

23:10

look at the voting demographics, the

23:12

Democrats locked up the rich with

23:14

with the very few exceptions, like

23:17

they're, they're definitely demonizing Elon Musk

23:19

and a few other billionaires, the

23:21

Koch brothers and the rest of

23:23

them. But for the most part,

23:25

the People who

23:27

are millionaires and people who are,

23:30

you know, in the upper class,

23:32

the people who are educated with

23:34

advanced degrees, me being an exception,

23:36

they tend to vote Democrat, whereas

23:38

regular working states who don't have

23:40

a college degree who make less

23:43

than the median wage or near

23:45

the median wage, they tend to

23:47

devote for Trump because Trump offered

23:49

them something. Hey y'all, let me

23:51

tell you about Robertson Roberts, brokerage,

23:54

Inc. Nobody trusts the US dollar

23:56

anymore. foreign governments are stocking up

23:58

on gold instead of hundred dollar

24:00

bills. One, they know they need

24:02

to, and two, that means you

24:04

need to too. Interest rates are

24:07

up, but for some reason not

24:09

much for savings accounts. Park your

24:11

money there and watch Uncle Joe

24:13

Biden just counterfeit its value away.

24:15

You can see how the Fed

24:17

is afraid to raise rates to

24:20

beat inflation for fear of popping

24:22

the current bubbles, at least before

24:24

the election. So more inflation it

24:26

will continue to be. Gold is

24:28

your shield against monetary and price

24:30

inflation, just like it always has

24:33

been. Now Tim Fry and the

24:35

guys over at Roberts and Roberts

24:37

are recommending gold over silver, since

24:39

the world's almost 200 governments are

24:41

putting their own pressure on the

24:44

price, which should help everyone else

24:46

who makes similar calls on their

24:48

own. Of course, Roberts and Roberts

24:50

can help you with Platinum, Palladium

24:52

and Silver as well as gold.

24:54

Don't let the Fed in the

24:57

war party inflate all your savings

24:59

away. Look up Roberts and Roberts

25:01

at rb.c.o. That's rb.c.o. Hey you

25:03

guys, the audio book of Provoked

25:05

is out. Okay, well I've started

25:07

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25:10

Scott Horton Show.com, and my patron,

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of course already bought and read

25:16

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26:56

Well, I mean, at least there's

26:58

that. I mean, I was just

27:00

about to say, the more corruption.

27:03

The more young people, in our

27:05

capitalist system, the more young people

27:07

tend to be socialists, believing that

27:09

that's the opposite of the system

27:11

that they live under, rather than

27:13

that's what's wrong with the system

27:16

that they live under, is the

27:18

degree of socialism in it. And

27:20

of course, as we're talking about

27:22

it, for the people who've already

27:24

made it first, yes. But the

27:26

solution to that ain't nationalizing more

27:29

things and all of that. And

27:31

so when you go, well, it's

27:33

turning people to the populist right

27:35

now away from these horrible... you

27:37

know, center left liberal slash culturally

27:40

socialist, weird feminist, whatever things they

27:42

are now the Democrats, then I'll

27:44

take right wing populism over that,

27:46

but it ain't libertarianism. There are

27:48

drawbacks as we're just talking about

27:50

with Mark Thornton on the show

27:53

that Trump is an easy money

27:55

guy. He doesn't want a monetary

27:57

system like we would prefer because

27:59

at the very least it would

28:01

be a tough transition to hard

28:03

money from the absolutely ridiculously rigged

28:06

game that we live under now?

28:08

It is a rigged game and

28:10

the, you're right, that's part of

28:12

it. I'm actually disappointed with a

28:14

lot of libertarians, not even just

28:16

the, you know, the Cato Institute

28:19

people who sort of rigged the

28:21

game against. regular working Americans, but

28:23

you know, the, there's a lot

28:25

of libertarians, even even in libertarian

28:27

party, I'm the Massachusetts State Party

28:29

treasurer for the time being, I'm

28:32

not running for re-election, but who

28:34

are just so enthusiastic about Trump,

28:36

and I think, okay, there's some

28:38

good things that he's done, and

28:40

I like the fact that the...

28:43

you know, U.S. Health and Human

28:45

Service Agency and the CDC are

28:48

going to be less corrupt. But

28:50

there's a backside to that. RFK

28:52

and really the whole Trump cabinet

28:54

and Trump himself, they were all

28:57

2004 Democrats. They were all 2004

28:59

Democrats. The RFK was put in

29:01

charge of the world's largest welfare

29:04

agency, the Health and Human Services

29:06

Department, without a mandate to cut

29:08

anything. Not a penny. And he's

29:10

making it more credible. He's making

29:13

it more reputable by going after

29:15

some of the corruption. And as

29:17

a libertarian, I think, well, I

29:19

guess I don't want the corruption,

29:22

but at the same time, I

29:24

don't want people to say, oh,

29:26

look at this great agency. We

29:29

can't cut anything. It's such a

29:31

good agency. Look, you know, they

29:33

got rid of all the corruption.

29:35

It makes it, to me, more

29:38

sustainable. It's more dangerous. In a

29:40

way, although they are really just

29:42

popularizing the idea that the government

29:44

doesn't care about you, they're against

29:47

you, you might as well just

29:49

route the vipers out, you know.

29:51

Well, I mean, there's an attitude

29:54

there and, you know, the fact

29:56

that he's exposing the corruption is

29:58

a great moment for us as

30:00

libertarian. both capital and Laurel, Libertarians,

30:03

because before, a lot of that

30:05

stuff was arguable. They'd say, oh

30:07

no, you know, there's nothing wrong

30:09

with big pharma, you know, you

30:11

want to get all your vaccines.

30:13

And now he's saying, oh, well,

30:15

maybe some of these medicines are

30:18

being recalled because they didn't really

30:20

do a study. And maybe they

30:22

were pushing them when they shouldn't

30:24

have. And maybe the, maybe

30:26

this food pyramid was. was created

30:28

by lobbies rather than by

30:30

science and maybe, and so

30:32

on and so forth. And

30:35

the fact that they can

30:37

expose that, that's a good thing,

30:39

but what we don't want is

30:41

for this to legitimize the

30:43

welfare state and make it

30:45

more permanent and more sustainable. You

30:47

know, to a certain extent, if

30:49

something is openly corrupt. and obviously

30:52

corrupt. It's much easier to abolish

30:54

than something that is, oh, it

30:56

appears to be doing a good

30:58

job and they've rooted out all

31:00

the corruption. And that's one of

31:03

my worries. I think a lot

31:05

of the cuts that the Trump administration

31:07

and Musk and Doge are

31:09

coming up with, I think a lot of

31:11

them are going to be undone by the

31:13

courts, you know, like the... And the lower

31:16

court just came out today and

31:18

said that the cuts in the

31:20

U.S. Agency for International Development are

31:22

well foreign aid program, which is

31:24

all money laundering and corruption. Those

31:27

have to be spent. And there's in

31:29

this court precedent all the way

31:31

the Supreme Court going back to

31:33

train versus city of New York in

31:35

1974 when. Nixon tried to do the

31:38

same thing. And the Supreme Court said,

31:40

now you can't do that. Congress is

31:42

in charge. Now we have a zombie

31:44

Congress that doesn't do anything, but I

31:46

think the Supreme Court is going to,

31:49

even with the justices that are better

31:51

than they were in 1974, I think

31:53

they're still going to say, no, Congress

31:55

should be in charge. And if

31:57

Congress passes the spending, then

31:59

then. that's it. I think that's

32:02

a lot of this dough stuff

32:04

that a lot of these cuts

32:06

unfortunately are going to be undone

32:08

and we'll be spending more. Man,

32:10

well wouldn't that suck if it

32:12

all came to nothing? I don't

32:14

guess you think that Trump would

32:16

ever actually go ahead and veto

32:19

a budget and force them to

32:21

cut the things that have already

32:23

been... I mean, if they just

32:25

take it all back at this

32:27

point, and I've been seeing them,

32:29

I subscribe to the Washington Times

32:31

email alert, and they just send

32:33

out stuff all day about court

32:36

strikes down this, court strikes down

32:38

that, looks like the agenda is

32:40

really being reversed. I wonder if

32:42

the administration is going to fight

32:44

them at all or what? Well,

32:46

I'm sure the administration will fight

32:48

it to the Supreme Court, but

32:51

like I said, you know, the

32:53

precedent has been set the other

32:55

way around, and that's the problem.

32:57

I want to be optimistic, but

32:59

I'm old enough, I mean my

33:01

late 50s, I'm old enough to

33:03

remember that a lot of this

33:05

stuff is just bluster. I mean,

33:08

it's, it's, some of my favorite

33:10

videos coming out of Washington in

33:12

the last couple years have been

33:14

Thomas Massey talking about how all

33:16

the budget is just theater. I,

33:18

you know, that's just gold. It's,

33:20

and it is so true. I

33:23

mean, he's, he's the only one

33:25

in Washington really. Who's serious? And

33:27

everybody else is just doing theater.

33:29

Yep. Ah, too bad. Welcome to

33:31

our same world we've been living

33:33

in. It's a little bit of

33:35

hope and change reminds me of

33:37

the Obama years right where people

33:40

are getting all excited, but like,

33:42

come on, what's to be excited

33:44

about here really, dude? No matter

33:46

who you vote for, you always

33:48

get benchmen net in Yahoo. Yeah,

33:51

all right, let me let me

33:53

let me not let me let

33:56

me try to end on on

33:58

a positive note here I I

34:00

do feel like we are in

34:03

a moment where real change is

34:05

possible. And when you think about

34:07

it, you know, we've got, we've

34:09

got this case of Javier Malay,

34:12

who's far from perfect and everybody

34:14

who gets elected is always disappointed

34:16

and he's not an exception, but

34:19

he ran on a libertarian platform

34:21

and he's made some real cuts

34:23

and made some real improvement in

34:26

Argentina. We've got the case of

34:28

Donald Trump who really ran as

34:30

a third party candidate inside the

34:32

Republican Party. And one, you know,

34:35

well, how did he do it?

34:37

It's because the media is no

34:39

longer in control, uh, you know,

34:42

under control by whatever the, you

34:44

know, whatever, whatever, whatever you want

34:46

to call it, the deep state,

34:49

the, you know, the, you know,

34:51

the, you know, the intelligence community,

34:53

the, the liberal Hoyle, whatever you

34:55

want to call it. There is

34:58

an alternative media that is many

35:00

multiples bigger than. the old corporate

35:02

media of the big five corporations

35:05

right there's big there's five corporations

35:07

that used to get all 90%

35:09

of your news from ABC Disney

35:12

NBC Universal CBS they also have

35:14

six flags I think CBS Viacom

35:16

and they have six flags and

35:18

then there's a box and I'm

35:21

trying to think what the last

35:23

one is ABC NBC CBS oh

35:25

CNN time order those are the

35:28

five big ones but you know

35:30

what they The Joe Rogan podcast

35:32

has a bigger audience when it

35:35

comes to actual news than Fox

35:37

for a 24 hour period plus

35:39

CNN for a 24 hour period

35:42

plus MS NBC for a 24

35:44

hour period plus the New York

35:46

Times Washington Post, all of them.

35:48

He has a bigger audience that

35:51

on one podcast. And he's not

35:53

the only one. There's I mean,

35:55

he's the biggest one. But I

35:58

mean, actually, Tucker Carlson. might be

36:00

even bigger than Joe Rogan these

36:02

days. He did. They're right up

36:05

there. Yeah. I mean, you know,

36:07

his his podcast with Javier Malay

36:09

got I think 425 million views

36:11

and the one with Putin got

36:14

a couple hundred million views and

36:16

that's just, you know, I mean,

36:18

CNN doesn't get a million on

36:21

a good day. So it's just

36:23

it's it's it's it's outsized and

36:25

they don't know what to do.

36:28

That's why there's a global censorship

36:30

come. complex growing across the world.

36:32

That's why the CIA, which can't

36:34

do anything domestically here with the

36:37

First Amendment, they've outsourced it to

36:39

Europe, to Brazil, to try to

36:41

censor media that that will not

36:44

comply, that will not curate their

36:46

their news and their opinion to

36:48

whatever they want. And it's not

36:51

working that well right now. I

36:53

think there's an opportunity. for a

36:55

real libertarian to rise and get

36:57

elected to national office and make

37:00

a real difference and make real

37:02

cuts. I'm not saying necessarily in

37:04

the next couple years, maybe in

37:07

2028, but 2032, I mean, we

37:09

have that opportunity. We have the

37:11

ability to get the message out

37:14

and we didn't before. I mean,

37:16

nobody, you know, it was almost

37:18

impossible for Ron Paul. to get

37:20

out a major message. He would

37:23

do an interview of 45 minutes

37:25

on CNN, and they wouldn't run

37:27

it at all, or they'd run

37:30

15 seconds, and that would be

37:32

it. He wouldn't be able to

37:34

get his message out. Now, libertarians

37:37

can get their message out. And

37:39

we can show, hey, we're not

37:41

capitalist pigs. We're just, we just

37:44

believe in free enterprise and giving

37:46

regular people a fair shake. And

37:48

yeah, we don't believe in welfare,

37:50

but we do believe in taking

37:53

care of people on our own

37:55

voluntarily and explaining that to them.

37:57

Exactly. saying look our focus is

38:00

is get rid of the welfare

38:02

but let's start with the welfare

38:04

for the rich our focus is

38:07

let's cut taxes and let's cut

38:09

taxes for the poor first cut

38:11

taxes for the rich too but

38:13

for the poor first because they're

38:16

paying double the rate capital is

38:18

paying double the rate of tax

38:20

capital is paying half the rate

38:23

of tax that labor is paying.

38:25

So let's give some relief to

38:27

the working people because if you

38:30

go back before the one of

38:32

the other big changes other than

38:34

inflation before the United States went

38:36

off the gold standard is the

38:39

payroll tax was less than half

38:41

of what it is now. The

38:43

payroll tax was. four or five

38:46

percent in the 50s and by

38:48

the 60s they've gotten up to

38:50

seven, six, seven percent, you can

38:53

look online for the different charts.

38:55

It's up to fit, it's been

38:57

15.3% generally speaking since the early

38:59

1980s, but that makes a big

39:02

difference. I mean, you know, one

39:04

of the big, one of the

39:06

ways to accumulate capital, one of

39:09

the biggest ways to accumulate capital

39:11

is just to start saving, even

39:13

if you save a small amount

39:16

of money. If you saved. $1,000

39:18

in 1929 right before the big

39:20

crash. And you just left it

39:22

in the S&P 500 until 19,

39:25

you know, until last year, you'd

39:27

have $5.7 million even with the

39:29

crash. Now, a lot of that's

39:32

inflation, but that's still $337,000. to

39:34

invest money early when you're working

39:36

and not making that much money

39:39

makes a big difference for when

39:41

you're when you retire and get

39:43

older and that has been taken

39:45

away from regular working people by

39:48

especially by the Social Security and

39:50

Medicare program. I mean they say

39:52

it's you know the payroll taxes

39:55

go to those programs but they

39:57

don't really go to those programs

39:59

is a unified budget and the

40:02

spending at the federal level has

40:04

not had anything to do with

40:06

the payroll taxes I've had and

40:09

not anything to do with Social

40:11

Security since 1968. They haven't really

40:13

kept, they have a paper, a

40:15

paper tab going on. They have

40:18

an Excel spreadsheet. That's it. There's

40:20

not really a trust fund. You

40:22

know. The trust fund was looted

40:25

in 1968 to balance the budget,

40:27

1969, fiscal 1969, to balance the

40:29

budget. So that it's, what we

40:32

need to do is look forward

40:34

and get some candidates and get

40:36

some. some media exposure for those

40:38

for those great libertarian groups like

40:41

the libertarian institutes got years you

40:43

can put together a good group

40:45

here but also the Mises Institute

40:48

there's just so many great groups

40:50

out there that need wider exposure

40:52

and I'm glad to see that

40:55

they're getting it finally. Yeah now

40:57

as long as I have you

40:59

here then if we got our

41:01

way in the government had to

41:04

admit the truth that this really

41:06

is all a big Ponzi scheme

41:08

and an unsustainable one too, then

41:11

how would you fix it in

41:13

a way that is not just

41:15

a big rip-off for the rich,

41:18

reminded of W Bush saying, yeah,

41:20

you know what we need to

41:22

do is take all the Social

41:24

Security IOUs. and put all that

41:27

in the stock market bubble. The

41:29

same one that crashed on his

41:31

watch in September 2008 and was

41:34

the worst catastrophe since 29. Remember

41:36

that same bubble that he wanted

41:38

to put all the Social Security

41:41

money in? So what do we

41:43

do instead of that? Well, the

41:45

irony is that, you know, if

41:47

you if you were to put

41:50

the average, average average worker and

41:52

you take his taxes and you

41:54

put it into the stock market

41:57

and you, he retires. And the

41:59

stock market performs exactly like it

42:01

does in 1929, which is worse

42:04

than 2008. He still does better.

42:06

He can still pull out more

42:08

money every single year than he

42:10

can with Social Security. So, you

42:13

know, if the stock market is

42:15

a casino, Social Security is worse

42:17

than a casino. It's a worse

42:20

investment than Stock Market Casino. Okay.

42:22

But how do we get out

42:24

of it? We can get out

42:27

of it the same way Chile

42:29

got out of it. We can

42:31

get out of it the same

42:34

way. Really, Australia is kind of

42:36

getting out of it. They have

42:38

a, Chile just basically said, look,

42:40

if you're under 50, the program

42:43

is gone and that's what it

42:45

is. You're just going to save.

42:47

in a private fund and that's

42:50

what it is. And, you know,

42:52

we'll honor the retirement, the very

42:54

measly retirement funds that for those

42:57

who are retired currently and are

42:59

about to retire. I think basically

43:01

they said, you know, I forget

43:03

what they exactly said. They said

43:06

something like, from if you're 45

43:08

to 55, we'll give you the

43:10

choice. If you're under 45, you're

43:13

off. There's no public system and

43:15

you're not going to get one.

43:17

but there's a private investment fund.

43:20

And then if you're, if you

43:22

retired, you retired, whatever will honor

43:24

that program. That's probably the only

43:26

way to do it to sunset

43:29

it. I, you know, there's just

43:31

no other way politically that you

43:33

could get it done. But it

43:36

has been done that way. And

43:38

the Chilean's have done well by

43:40

it. They've actually. gone back to

43:43

socialism a little bit in the

43:45

past couple decades, but the state

43:47

planning has not come back, that

43:49

the state retirement program has not

43:52

come back, because it's even with

43:54

the even with some fluctuations in

43:56

the Chilean stock market like the

43:59

US. it's still a better deal

44:01

than the old private, the old

44:03

government fund. And we're going to

44:05

find that. I mean, the longer things

44:08

go with Social Security and Medicare, the

44:10

more people are going to realize that,

44:12

gee, I'm throwing a ton of money

44:15

into this and I'm getting nothing back.

44:17

The thing with a private fund is

44:19

that you can pull out 7% forever and

44:21

never run out of money. Whereas if

44:24

you're on a pay-go system

44:26

like Social Security or Medicare,

44:28

The benefits are paid by work

44:30

people who are working right now

44:32

into the person who's retired right

44:35

now. And as longevity increases

44:37

as people live longer

44:39

I mean when Social

44:42

Security started the average

44:44

Social Security recipient only

44:46

received benefits for four years

44:48

and many of them received none

44:51

at all because they didn't live

44:53

to 65. Now the average age is

44:55

79, 81, depending on where do you

44:57

marry, male or female. So people

45:00

are receiving Social Security benefits for

45:02

15 years. Well, longevity is

45:04

probably going to increase even

45:06

more, which means they're going

45:08

to have to either raise the taxes, turn

45:11

it into a full-blown welfare state,

45:13

which all the left is talking

45:15

about, oh, raise the cap, raise

45:17

the cap, we'll just have billionaires

45:19

subsidize it. Or they're going to have

45:21

to cut the benefits, which they've

45:23

also done. They've cut the benefits

45:25

by postponing the age of full

45:28

retirement to 67. That's another 68.

45:30

It's another. It's another terribly regressive

45:33

tax there. I mean, you already

45:35

talked about how it's regressive in

45:37

the part of it that's the payroll

45:39

tax and all that. But how about

45:42

just poor people die earlier? I think,

45:44

you know, black people in America,

45:46

average life expectancy is mid-60,

45:48

right when you would start

45:50

getting your social security money,

45:53

right? Right and you know if they could have

45:55

put the money away they could you know will it

45:57

to their children or the grandchildren or

45:59

whatever the wife. But instead, you

46:01

know, Social Security pays out

46:03

when you die. It's the

46:05

same amount since 1935. It

46:08

pays out $255. Whereas, you

46:10

know, I've done the math,

46:12

the average American on the

46:14

average salary and an average

46:16

career would retire with $1.2

46:19

million in their bank account

46:21

if their justice Social Security

46:23

portion of their FICA taxes,

46:25

not counting Medicare, not counting

46:27

disability insurance. portion. If you

46:29

put that into a private

46:32

fund over the, and they

46:34

were to retire in 1920,

46:36

2003, 2023, or 2024, they

46:38

would, they would have 1.2

46:40

million. And the number is

46:42

only going to increase not

46:45

just because of inflation, but

46:47

because, you know, many of

46:49

the people who are retiring,

46:51

will have paid in the

46:53

full. 15.3% of the

46:55

payroll tax, I think a 10.4

46:58

goes to Social Security. They will

47:00

have paid in that full proportion

47:02

from the very first day they

47:04

entered the workforce. Many of the

47:07

people retiring right now paid a

47:09

much lower rate of their Social

47:11

Security tax because they, you know,

47:13

they just raised the tax over

47:16

the years. And of course, they

47:18

finalized it with Reagan in 1980.

47:20

three I think it was at

47:22

15.3 it's you know between Medicare

47:25

and Social Security and disability crazy

47:27

man all right well I hate

47:29

government even more than before even

47:31

though I already did as much

47:34

as I can without just then

47:36

I've done a good job imploding

47:38

yes you have listen everybody you

47:41

got to give me money so

47:43

I can pay Tom Edlem to

47:45

write articles that's basically the scam

47:47

It's the Libertarian Institute. It's a

47:50

501c3 nonprofit organization. So you can

47:52

write it off on your income

47:54

taxes. And then you donate that

47:56

money. to me, I control the

47:59

bank account, but then I just

48:01

disperse it to my writers. That's

48:03

basically the deal. Also I get

48:05

to keep some. But mostly I

48:08

just give it to them and

48:10

I got books to produce. I've

48:12

got articles and podcasts to publish,

48:14

including those by the great Tom

48:17

Edlam here. So please stop by

48:19

Libertarian Institute.org/donate and do what you

48:21

can. We have $25,000 worth of

48:24

matching funds from two very generous

48:26

donors donors right now. And so

48:28

we're seeking more of those. And

48:30

we sure do appreciate the very

48:33

small ones too, whatever you guys

48:35

can do. And then you'll get

48:37

to keep reading great stuff by

48:39

the likes of Tom Edlam at

48:42

the Institute. Sounds like a fair

48:44

bargain. Thank you, Tom. Thank you,

48:46

Scott. All right, you guys. That

48:48

is Tom Edlam and he's at

48:51

the Institute and this one is

48:53

called Plutocratic America's War on the

48:55

Working Class. You're going to read

48:57

nothing like that at Cato.org. You

49:00

imagine donating to Cato.org. You know,

49:02

Ted Carpenter writes for me now

49:04

too, so that's just, we all

49:06

like Doug, but he'll be fine.

49:09

Donate to the Institute. Thank you.

49:11

Thanks for listening to Scott Horton

49:13

Show, which can be heard on

49:16

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49:18

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49:20

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