0:09

All right, Shell, welcome to the Scott

0:12

Horton Show. I'm the Director of

0:14

the Libertarian Institute, Editorial Director of

0:16

Anti-War.com, author of the book, Fools

0:18

Aaron, Time to End the War

0:21

in Afghanistan, and the brand new,

0:23

Enough Already, Time to End the

0:25

War on Terrorism. And I've recorded

0:27

more than 5,500 interviews since 2003,

0:30

almost all on foreign policy, and

0:32

all available for you at Scott

0:34

Horton.org. You can sign up the

0:37

podcast feed there. and the full

0:39

interview archive is also

0:41

available at YouTube.com/stop Horton

0:44

Show. Hey look, you guys on the line, we

0:46

got Tim Shorock. And he wrote a

0:48

book a long time ago called Spies

0:50

for Hire and he writes a bunch

0:52

of great stuff about Korea which he

0:54

knows a hell of a lot about.

0:56

Welcome back to the show. How you doing? I'm

0:58

okay, thank you. Very happy to have

1:00

you here. You know, I've been really

1:03

slacking off on the show. for the last

1:05

year trying to get the book done and

1:07

all this stuff. So now I'm trying to

1:09

get back in the swing of things and

1:12

I'm way behind on Korea. I

1:14

know that there was all kinds

1:16

of shenanigans. Why characterize them?

1:18

I don't know. I read this morning that

1:20

the ex-president is out of jail. So...

1:23

There's some news, but can you

1:25

tell us who and who overthrew

1:27

what and why he declared martial

1:29

law and what happened then and

1:32

which guys are wearing the black

1:34

hats and the white hats according

1:36

to your point of view and what

1:39

have you like that? Okay, that's

1:41

a lot of questions there, Scott,

1:43

as usual, but I'll try

1:45

to get to them. Well, black hat

1:47

is definitely Junsukyol

1:49

who just got... The court let

1:52

him get out of jail.

1:54

He declared martial law to

1:56

everyone shock in Korea. I

1:58

mean, it was just. Nobody expected

2:00

this. And on December 3rd,

2:03

he declared martial law and

2:05

sent about 1,500 special forces

2:07

and other military forces well-armed

2:10

to the National Assembly to

2:12

take over the National Assembly

2:14

and prevent any, you know,

2:17

anything from taking place in

2:19

the Parliament. And he said

2:21

that, you know, he did

2:24

this to eradicate the shameless

2:26

pro-North Korea anti-state forces who

2:28

threatened his agenda, which is

2:31

basically to break the power

2:33

of Korean unions, deepen strategic

2:35

ties with Japan, and continue

2:38

its... militaristic stance on North

2:40

Korea. But a lot of

2:42

people, he was very unpopular

2:45

for a lot of reasons.

2:47

And one is that he's

2:49

seen as a pro-Japanese politician.

2:52

He, in 2023, he had

2:54

agreed to this three-way military

2:56

alliance between the US, Japan,

2:59

and South Korea. And to

3:01

get that. to get that

3:03

agreement going. He agreed, you

3:06

know, to settle Korean differences

3:08

with Japan over World War

3:10

II crimes committed by Japan,

3:13

right? And in that agreement,

3:15

you know, which involved around

3:17

the, revolved around the so-called

3:20

comfort women, you know, women

3:22

who were forced into sexual

3:24

slavery, and also, you know,

3:27

people who were forced. into

3:29

labor in Japanese factories during

3:31

World War II. That's always

3:34

been a big issue for

3:36

Koreans. And the way he

3:38

settled it was Japan did

3:41

not. have to pay any

3:43

reparations. Japan did not have

3:45

to even apologize. Instead, all

3:48

the costs would be borne

3:50

by South Korea. And that

3:52

infuriated a lot of Koreans.

3:55

They just saw it as

3:57

a sellout to Japan. And

3:59

he was already quite unpopular

4:02

because of his, well, he

4:04

has this, you know, he

4:06

just was always on the

4:09

attack, you know, in normal

4:11

times, there's a lot of,

4:13

you know, in the Parliament

4:16

and the National Assembly. There's

4:18

lots of, you know, fierce

4:20

rhetoric on both sides. But

4:23

he really attacked his opponents,

4:25

who are basically, you know,

4:27

left liberals, not leftist, not

4:30

communist in any way. He

4:32

attacked him as pro-North Korean

4:34

communists all the time. And

4:37

it was just, you know,

4:39

this kind of attacks from

4:41

the... that used to happen

4:44

during the cold, during the

4:46

dark days of the Cold

4:48

War. And he was also

4:51

seen as very corrupt. His

4:53

wife has been involved in

4:55

a number of scandals and

4:58

so he, you know, he

5:00

wasn't very popular and his

5:02

popularity was falling. And his

5:05

agenda was being attacked in

5:07

the National Assembly and he

5:09

was being criticized very heavily

5:12

in the media even. And

5:14

so he tried to declare

5:16

martial law for the first

5:19

time in 45 years. And

5:21

I think to his shock,

5:23

tens of thousands of Korean

5:26

citizens just alerted by social

5:28

media went down to the

5:30

National Assembly and basically, you

5:33

know, tried to prevent the

5:35

military from... taking control of

5:37

the National Assembly and they

5:40

did. I mean there's this

5:42

one picture there was this

5:44

one picture that went around

5:47

the world of this woman

5:49

legislator. grabbing the M16 of

5:51

this one guy and just,

5:54

you know, trying to pull

5:56

the gun away from him.

5:58

So they really put their

6:01

bodies on the line. And

6:03

they managed to help a

6:05

lot of the politicians get

6:07

back into the National Assembly

6:10

by helping them climb over

6:12

the fences and stuff like

6:14

that. This is both opposition

6:17

and, you know, ruling party

6:19

politicians. And they came back

6:21

and they and they voted

6:24

about about six hours later

6:26

to to well to to

6:28

declare martial law illegal and

6:31

and and so the martial

6:33

law decree was rescinded. And

6:35

then that start that that

6:38

really began this three month

6:40

period of political tumult basically

6:42

because. Then the opposition wanted

6:45

to impeach him, which they

6:47

did, but at first the

6:49

ruling party, Yun's ruling party,

6:52

didn't want the impeachment to

6:54

go forward and they blocked

6:56

it. And then finally a

6:59

few of the ruling party

7:01

politicians, you know, joined with

7:03

the opposition and they did

7:06

impeach him. And then he

7:08

was arrested. for treason, for,

7:10

you know, declaring this martial

7:13

law illegally. And, and he,

7:15

then he was, you know,

7:17

his supporters came to, came

7:20

to, you know, try to

7:22

prevent that from happening, but

7:24

they failed. And he was

7:27

jailed and then this trial's

7:29

been going on in the

7:31

constitutional court. And probably, maybe

7:34

about 10 days from now

7:36

or so. two weeks maybe,

7:38

the decision. going to come

7:41

down from the court, which

7:43

is likely to throw him

7:45

out of office. He's already

7:48

been impeached and this will

7:50

basically back up the impeachment

7:52

and then declare him that

7:55

he can't be present anymore.

7:57

And then elections will be

7:59

called right away once that

8:02

happens. So I expect that

8:04

there will be an election

8:06

in South Korea soon. And

8:09

it's very likely that the

8:11

opposition party will win. And

8:13

the US national security forces

8:16

are not very happy with

8:18

that, because they think, you

8:20

know, they're not, the opposition

8:23

party in South Korea is

8:25

not tough enough on either

8:27

North Korea or China. And

8:30

they, you know, and so

8:32

like the right wing and

8:34

in South Korea, you know,

8:37

says the opposition is, you

8:39

know, pro China, pro North

8:41

Korea. There's no truth to

8:44

that whatsoever, but they do

8:46

want to have different relation

8:48

with China and different relations,

8:51

you know, you remember in

8:53

the past when, you know,

8:55

Trump was president and in

8:58

the first, is the first

9:00

administration, there was a. you

9:02

know, near war with North

9:05

Korea, right? And then Moon

9:07

JN, who was the progressive

9:09

president of South Korea, opened,

9:12

you know, did this opening

9:14

to North Korea during the

9:16

Olympics in 2018. And they

9:19

began this dialogue that led

9:21

to some. important agreements between

9:23

them to to build, you

9:26

know, to try to diffuse

9:28

tensions and so on. And

9:30

as a result of that,

9:33

negotiate. You know, Trump began

9:35

to negotiate with Kim Jong-un,

9:37

also to the shock of

9:40

the U.S. national security establishment.

9:42

But that's the background to

9:44

this, you know, political crisis

9:47

that grips South Korea right

9:49

now. Hang on just one

9:51

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9:54

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13:02

so... It's, I guess the

13:05

vice president is the acting

13:07

president for now until they

13:09

hold new elections or how

13:12

does that work? Because he's

13:14

still, it was another, they

13:16

don't, they don't have, they

13:19

have a, they have a

13:21

prime minister. They have a

13:23

kind of different system. They

13:26

don't, there's not a vice

13:28

president that automatically assumes power

13:30

when a president has picked

13:33

out. They have a system

13:35

where, where, sort of the

13:37

number, you know, well, it's,

13:40

you know, another. ruling another

13:42

senior leader of that party.

13:44

So they have an acting

13:47

president now, who's, you know,

13:49

part of the conservative party.

13:51

And he's been, you know,

13:54

trying to carry out, you

13:56

know, government policies, but it's,

13:58

you know, there's no, I

14:01

mean, it's just a big,

14:03

nothing will be clear until

14:05

there's, you know, At least

14:08

this impeachment is settled and

14:10

then there's a new election

14:12

and a new administration comes

14:15

in. So it's kind of

14:17

a chaotic situation. But the

14:19

thing that's been really frightening

14:22

to a lot of Koreans

14:24

and people here too, who

14:26

follow there, is that when

14:29

Yun was in jail, he

14:31

began to appeal to this

14:33

really extreme right that hasn't

14:36

really emerged for years in

14:38

South Korea. I mean, you

14:40

know, there was, during the

14:43

1940s. before the Korean War.

14:45

I mean, one of the

14:47

things that led up to

14:50

the Korean War was the

14:52

takeover of South Korea by

14:54

the far right, extreme right.

14:57

And they were, you know,

14:59

they used violence against the

15:01

left opposition and there was,

15:04

you know, lots of, you

15:06

know, military clashes between the

15:08

rightist government in South Korea.

15:11

Korea and left-wing forces in

15:13

South Korea before the North

15:15

Koreans invaded and crossed the

15:18

38th parallel of 1950. From

15:20

about 1948 to 50 there

15:22

was basically a civil war

15:25

inside of South Korea and

15:27

of course this was during

15:29

the time when the U.S.

15:32

ran things with its U.S.

15:34

and military governments in Korea.

15:36

that far right, that fastest

15:39

right, really emerged after, you

15:41

know, during the Korean War

15:43

and afterwards. And then there

15:46

was a military coup in

15:48

1961 where there was a

15:50

dictator named Bakchung He was

15:52

a general who had also

15:55

been trained in the Japanese

15:57

military during colonialism. ruled for

15:59

18 years and and that's

16:02

when you know this far

16:04

right was very much in

16:06

power. And you know, he

16:09

was assassinated. And that, and

16:11

as a result, there was

16:13

another coup after he was

16:16

assassinated. And there was another

16:18

period of authoritarian rule. But

16:20

as I've talked about in

16:23

your show before, there was

16:25

an uprising in 1980 when

16:27

that general massacred all these.

16:30

people in the city of

16:32

Guangzhou who were demonstrating against

16:34

martial law. And he took

16:37

over the country at the

16:39

time, but that Guangzhou uprising

16:41

was the spark for a.

16:44

democracy movement throughout the country in

16:47

South Korea in the 80s and

16:49

by 87 they had basically forced

16:51

the military to step aside and

16:54

then there were elections and you

16:56

know conservatives won liberals won and

16:58

the elections had followed for president

17:01

but the far right had really

17:03

been minimized you know they're there

17:05

because they were seen as the

17:08

problem in the dictatorship period and

17:10

the authoritarian period. And so, you

17:12

know, even conservative candidates, you know,

17:15

had to disassociate themselves from the

17:17

far right to win elections, you

17:19

know, to appeal to the middle.

17:22

And so the far right was

17:24

really kind of ostracized in a

17:26

way. But Yun is sort of

17:28

of of of that ill, and

17:31

he's really appealed to the far

17:33

right. And by far right, I'm

17:35

talking about there's this one, you

17:38

know, fundamentalist preacher who's leading all

17:40

these people and condemning the opposition

17:42

is communist. and pro-North Korean and

17:45

pro-China. And there's a lot of

17:47

older people that are, you know,

17:49

very, very anti-communists. They're part of

17:52

that. And then there's lots of

17:54

young men who are like kind

17:56

of in-cells who were, and some

17:59

of them even identify with the

18:01

Amaga movement in the United States

18:03

and with Trump. And they kind

18:06

of together for this far right

18:08

of today. And, you know, they've

18:10

used violence, you know, to to

18:13

support you and, you know, just

18:15

today I saw something about, you

18:17

know, some foreign reporters that were

18:19

just covering demonstrations were beat up

18:22

by these far right people. And

18:24

then these reporters that were beat

18:26

up are not, you know, left

18:29

wing or anything. They're just, they're,

18:31

they're fairly conservative reporters from this.

18:33

publication called North Korea News that

18:36

follows events in North Korea. And

18:38

so, you know, it's a, it's

18:40

a, it's a really, you have

18:43

a big splits now between open

18:45

splits, violent splits between, you know,

18:47

the left and the right there

18:50

now. And so it's causing, you

18:52

know, like, some of, you know,

18:54

like some of Yeah, yesterday, I

18:57

think, this week, I think, Colby,

18:59

the, what's his name, he's a

19:01

new, he's Trump's new, Eldridge, Colby,

19:04

who's a scene, he's kind of

19:06

this realist, you know, he has

19:08

this kind of realist approach to

19:10

the world. Yeah, I saw his

19:13

confirmation hearing, he seemed less worse

19:15

than a lot of guys. Well,

19:17

he is he's I I've been

19:20

critical of him in the past,

19:22

but he does have a you

19:24

know he he he recognizes the

19:27

reality of the situations I think

19:29

and like he's he's like he

19:31

you know he says like we

19:34

don't have to be you know

19:36

100% enemies with China we can

19:38

be you know we can be

19:41

like sort of intact we don't

19:43

have to be necessarily go to

19:45

war with him but you know

19:48

there are there are there are

19:50

enemy but they're not like you

19:52

know the enemies about to storm

19:55

the gates I mean he's he's

19:57

and we should have dialogue with

19:59

China, right? And like he was

20:01

saying at his hearing, he mentioned

20:04

a little bit about, he was

20:06

asked about this trilateral relationship between

20:08

Japan, the US, and South Korea,

20:11

and he said that, you know,

20:13

probably that may not blast because

20:15

of the political situation within South

20:18

Korea. because there is a lot

20:20

of opposite. He recognizes that there's

20:22

a lot of opposition to it

20:25

into this trilateral relationship in South

20:27

Korea, and he recognizes that as

20:29

a reality, which maybe, which is

20:32

a good thing, I think, you

20:34

know, because the Biden people just

20:36

were like, they wouldn't hear of

20:39

any opposition. It's like, well, too

20:41

bad. This is the way they

20:43

have to go. Yeah. you know,

20:46

Tony Blen and the guy who

20:48

was the ambassador to Japan, you

20:50

know, former mayor of Chicago. Yeah,

20:52

exactly. They were saying things like,

20:55

you know, this trilateral relationship has

20:57

to remain and this is the

20:59

this is the foundation of our

21:02

alliance system and, you know, etc.

21:04

etc. etc. And they really scoffed

21:06

at any kind of opposition. And

21:09

it's like, you know, what we

21:11

say goes, basically. And so. So,

21:13

you know, I don't know exactly

21:16

how Colby's going to operate as

21:18

far as, you know, military policy,

21:20

but he seems a lot more

21:23

pragmatic and a lot more. Hey,

21:25

do you know Tim? Yeah, do

21:27

you know Tim if Stephen Began

21:30

is back? He was the most

21:32

reasonable guy last time around. I

21:34

don't know. I haven't been following

21:37

that closely, but, you know, I

21:39

do know that. I mean, the

21:41

thing is like, you know, you

21:43

see, you know, that, you know,

21:46

Trump is talking about, well, he,

21:48

you know, he said something yesterday

21:50

about the U.S.-Japan alliance, the military

21:53

alliance, saying that, you know, we

21:55

don't have to, we have to

21:57

defend Japan, but they don't have

22:00

to defend us, which is actually

22:02

not even true. foreign this military

22:04

alliance with Japan in 1952 during

22:07

the Korean War and really you

22:09

know pressure them into this but

22:11

that you know that that agreement

22:14

gave Japan gave the US the

22:16

right to have bases in Japan

22:18

military bases in Japan basically forever

22:21

and those bases of course don't

22:23

are not just for defending Japan

22:25

they were those bases were the

22:28

main bases that the US used

22:30

to in the Korean War to

22:32

bomb Korea. You know, those US

22:34

bases in Japan were critical to

22:37

the US war in Vietnam. So

22:39

it's not just, you know. protecting

22:41

Japan. It's like protecting American interest

22:44

all over the globe. And that's

22:46

why. Well, that's the, yeah, that's

22:48

the trade-off for Europe too. It's,

22:51

you let us keep our military

22:53

bases in your country and you

22:55

can have open access to American

22:58

markets and you can keep your

23:00

tariffs on our stuff. Exactly. But

23:02

the thing is, you know, he's

23:05

also, you know, he's also, you

23:07

know, going to impose tariffs apparently

23:09

on, you know, steel and some

23:12

really important products that come out

23:14

of Korea and Japan. But, you

23:16

know, like, the other day, he

23:19

said, well, on the speech, the

23:21

other day, he said to the

23:23

Congress, he said, Korea pays, you

23:25

know, we pay quadruple the tariffs

23:28

that Korea does. And actually, there's

23:30

no tariff. I guess he does.

23:32

forgot that there was a Korea

23:35

U.S. free trade agreement where they

23:37

cut tariffs for almost everything. So,

23:39

you know, but also during the,

23:42

when he was talking with North

23:44

Korea and was having these negotiations

23:46

with Kim Jong-on, which of course

23:49

ended when, you know, John Bolton

23:51

told him not to sign an

23:53

agreement that would, you know, reduce,

23:56

the size of North Korea's nuclear

23:58

industry in return for a dropping

24:00

of sanctions. And you know, Bolden

24:03

told him that would be a

24:05

terrible thing and can't do it.

24:07

And so Trump walked away. But

24:10

he really walked away from quite

24:12

a deal, I think. And of

24:14

course, you know, since then, tensions

24:16

between North and South Korea have

24:19

and the US have really increased.

24:21

Yeah. you know so so so

24:23

a lot of Koreans fear fear

24:26

that they will be cut out

24:28

of any negotiations between Trump and

24:30

Kim Jong-un if he starts that

24:33

again and you know I think

24:35

they have a legitimate complaint there

24:37

and well so last time they

24:40

had essentially a liberal in moon

24:42

who wanted to deal who asked

24:44

Trump for permission hey can we

24:47

please deal here and Trump said

24:49

go ahead so now they I

24:51

guess you're saying well we got

24:54

this right wing group who they

24:56

identify themselves with maggotives but they

24:58

don't agree with them on this,

25:01

I guess, but then it sounds

25:03

like you're saying, though, that the

25:05

liberals are going to win the

25:07

next election and then maybe it'll

25:10

be all right or not. And

25:12

real quick, because I'm sorry, I

25:14

just realized what time it is

25:17

and I got to go. That's

25:19

okay. I think the left liberals

25:21

are going to win. And I

25:24

think there's all signs point toward

25:26

that. And they've already said one

25:28

of the leading opposition politicians a

25:31

week ago or so said he

25:33

thinks Trump should get it up.

25:35

Nobel Prize for negotiating with North

25:38

Korea. So they're, they want to

25:40

have negotiations. They support it. So.

25:42

Well, and look, and maybe the

25:45

right wingers are fond enough of

25:47

Trump that they're willing to go

25:49

along if he's the one taking

25:52

the lead on it. I don't

25:54

know, I want to see an

25:56

end of this war, and I'm

25:58

so regretful that Trump was not

26:01

able to see this through last

26:03

time, because of course. W Bush

26:05

and Barack Obama would have rather

26:08

died than to see America make

26:10

peace with North Korea. And so

26:12

that tells me that it's probably

26:15

a really good thing to seek.

26:17

And Biden too. Biden too. No

26:19

desire to do that. And I

26:22

remember well how Moon pulled this

26:24

off was he got Trump on,

26:26

I think it was a Friday

26:29

night and said, hey, come on,

26:31

let me deal and Trump. thought,

26:33

hey, hey, my staff is going

26:36

to hate this, right? McMaster's going

26:38

to blow his lid and I

26:40

want to see that happen. So

26:43

sure, go ahead, Mr. President, right?

26:45

He bucked, he bucked the Washington

26:47

establishment. Yeah. His own White House,

26:49

which at that time was occupied

26:52

territory from the rest of Washington

26:54

establishment there, where now I think

26:56

he's got freedom of action in

26:59

a way that he didn't before.

27:01

If he leaves this four years

27:03

without a deal with North Korea,

27:06

Tim, I'm going to be pissed.

27:08

Because he's got every opportunity to

27:10

do it now. Seems like... He

27:13

does. And I think actually, ironically,

27:15

I mean, this right wing in

27:17

Korea does not want to have

27:20

a negotiated peace with North Korea.

27:22

Not at all. I don't, I

27:24

don't know if they, or not,

27:27

but they. They might,

27:29

but it would

27:31

not be as

27:34

easy in terms

27:36

of North-South issues. know,

27:38

it's always been know,

27:40

it's always been

27:43

a case in

27:45

South Korea are in

27:47

are in office,

27:50

they make much

27:52

more progress talks with

27:54

talks with North

27:57

Korea. I think that, I mean,

27:59

that, I mean,

28:01

that, there's no

28:04

reason that couldn't

28:06

happen, you know, in the

28:08

know, in the

28:11

next know, in the

28:13

next two to

28:15

four years. years. Yeah, I'm

28:18

sorry, I got

28:20

to go, dude.

28:22

I'm so over

28:25

time. Thank you

28:27

for coming back on

28:29

the show. Let's catch up

28:31

again soon, Tim. it,

28:33

man. Take care. right, again

28:35

All right, you guys, that's

28:37

a great Tim it, man. Take

28:40

can find him on bye.

28:42

He's right, guys, The Scott

28:44

Horton great radio, can be

28:46

heard on You can .7 on Twitter. He's

28:48

Timothy S. The Scott Horton show, Anti War Radio,

28:50

Scott Horton.org. and Libertarian .org.