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Secrets from a coach Thrive and maximise

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your potential in the evolving workplace . Your

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weekly podcast with Debbie Green of Wishfish

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and Laura Thompson-Staveley of Phenomenal

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Training . Debs

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, laura , are you all right ? Yeah

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, I'm all right . I'm currently sitting in a hotel

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room .

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Yeah , I thought you were in a very different venue . What

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are you doing ?

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Anything exciting , Well yes , I

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am co-facilitating a workshop

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with our Carlos looking

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at what does it mean to be part of a high-performing

0:41

team , nice , and what's just been

0:43

really interesting is , you know , as you

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know , we like to use insights , discovery , as

0:47

the kind of the tool to have those conversations

0:50

, and just how much in life

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is to do with relationships

0:54

and having good quality , healthy

0:57

relationships . Yeah , I'm really looking forward

0:59

to this episode because this

1:01

is the fourth in our four part focus looking

1:03

at time to think about mind

1:06

health , how we deal with managing

1:08

our boss relationship and

1:11

how to plan and prioritise ourselves

1:13

. And this one , debs , is

1:15

all about the concept of time

1:17

to think about coercive control in

1:20

the workplace . So this

1:22

term I'm not particularly familiar

1:25

with it , so what has led

1:27

us to then think , actually we need to talk about

1:29

it , this idea of coercive control in the workplace

1:31

? So give us a bit of a headline . What is it

1:33

? Why is it of relevance now ? And

1:36

then we can then delve a bit deeper .

1:37

It is a really interesting one because we

1:40

hear a lot about coercive control outside of work

1:42

, but we have been hearing a lot about micromanaging

1:45

people , not maybe giving

1:47

people the right communication

1:49

, how giving them the heads up , giving them the right

1:52

expectation setting and position

1:54

and power is systemic I can never say that word Systematically

1:57

, there we go , I

2:05

got it out dominates or intimidates

2:08

people to maintain that control

2:10

. So you know , we've heard a couple

2:12

of people that have said you know , I think my boss is

2:14

a control freak . And whilst they're saying it

2:16

in jest , you actually go

2:18

. Maybe they are and then , when you question

2:20

them a little bit more , you can see

2:22

that maybe the signs of coercive

2:25

control in the workplace are very

2:27

subtly there , but people haven't

2:29

. They just feel it's not right . So to

2:31

talk about it , I think , and just bring out some

2:33

of that what are the characteristics , what

2:36

are the red flags around leaders , how do

2:38

they behave , what do they do ? It just

2:40

might make you go oh , now that makes perfect sense

2:42

and I can now know what to do about it . So

2:45

it's a real . It's one of those topics

2:47

I find people don't often

2:49

like to talk about it , but it's present

2:51

and you know most people , as

2:53

we know , Lord , don't they ? They leave , they leave

2:56

a job , but they're not leaving the job , they're leaving

2:58

the boss , and that

3:00

can be really hard .

3:01

I mean one of the things that brings us great joy when

3:04

we sort of chat with people who said , oh , I listened to that episode

3:07

and it really helped me feel normal

3:09

, reassured , comforted

3:11

. Turns out it's not just me that has

3:13

a challenge with this . Actually , there are other people as

3:15

well and it can just then means you can carry

3:17

yourself a bit lighter . I'm

3:25

also always very conscious that there's you know , it's not just bosses

3:27

that can turn a bit difficult . So to what extent is just the general

3:29

presence of coercive control from a colleague

3:32

point of view , so you don't have to be someone's boss

3:34

to be able to kind of have these control

3:36

issues with someone ? To what extent have you heard stories

3:39

of where it might be two peers that are working alongside

3:41

each other , and yeah . So

3:43

tell us a bit more about that so we can have a bit of a

3:45

general approach .

3:46

Yeah , I think also there's a bit around isolating

3:49

somebody out of any decisions , so

3:51

they're not part of the team . So even though

3:53

the colleague , their peer , has maybe called

3:55

a meeting or had a conversation about

3:57

something that's going on , they haven't

3:59

necessarily included that person

4:01

or they've made them feel

4:03

intimidated . Or sometimes

4:06

you can go , they might , you might hear

4:08

them call them out on something . No , I didn't say that

4:10

, you know . And then this person said yeah , but you

4:12

did . No , I didn't say that . And then it

4:14

feels like , well , which one

4:16

of you is is telling the

4:18

truth or not ? So again , it

4:20

can be , it can show up like that way . So

4:22

the other person starts to doubt themselves

4:25

and go no , I'm sure we had that conversation about

4:27

this and the you know the other person

4:29

is going no , we definitely didn't . You know

4:31

, I would have remembered , and that that

4:33

part can be really sticky to navigate

4:36

because it normally gets brought up in

4:38

a group , a meeting . It's very rarely

4:40

done one-on-one . So the other

4:42

person goes no , I did do that , I did what

4:44

you asked or we were working together on

4:46

it . But so the other person feels a bit silly

4:49

because it's normally brought up in a

4:51

group where people they can't necessarily

4:53

argue . It's a bit like he said

4:55

. She said then , and it's a bit , yeah , it's a

4:57

bit petty , so it

4:59

gets just oh well , maybe

5:05

I was wrong , yeah , and then it gets moved on . But that might happen again and again and that person

5:07

might have fear around it or feel intimidated by that individual

5:09

or doesn't know how to address

5:11

that coercive control . That's been going

5:14

on Very subtle , very subtle

5:16

, but it's there .

5:17

One of the really good sessions

5:20

we had today was talking about you

5:22

know what makes a high performing team and to

5:24

what extent trust is the

5:26

sort of the pyramid you know . If there's a pyramid of . You

5:28

know , if you've got trust , people are prepared to then

5:30

challenge and innovate because they're fully

5:32

committed to the results

5:34

, because they're fully in , and then you've just got

5:36

a team that is only there to

5:38

do what he wants to do , rather than kind of any infighting

5:41

or anything sort of like that . So

5:48

we then looked at a list of all right , what for you , are some trust makers and some trust breakers

5:50

. So I love that exercise from you to be able to get that stuff out . What's interesting when you look

5:52

at trust breakers is you know I'm sure you've seen it countless times

5:54

as well Things like doing what you say you're going

5:57

to do , not calling people out in front of others

5:59

. So you look at this list and you think

6:01

, all

6:05

right , well , is that just everybody else , or are there some times where we might

6:07

accidentally do that ? So I love the stat about how , apparently

6:10

, 86% of people think they're an above

6:12

average driver . It's them

6:14

lot out there that are the ones that are bad

6:16

. But statistically you can't have 86%

6:19

of people who think that they're above

6:21

average because it just doesn't work . So

6:23

at some point you might be the driver

6:25

that forgot to say thank you because you

6:27

were busy dealing with something else and then suddenly

6:30

you're one of those bad drivers . That's sort

6:32

of really rude . So to what extent

6:34

does sometimes coercively controlling

6:36

behaviour might be

6:38

unintentional ? It's a bit of a blind

6:40

spot . So that sort of mirror moment , almost just doing a mirror check , rather than it

6:43

being a bit of a blind spot , so that sort of mirror moment , almost just doing a mirror

6:45

check , rather than it being

6:47

a sort of a species of a certain type of person

6:49

that is coercively controlling what

6:52

might be some things that you've

6:54

seen where perfectly rational people have started

6:56

acting out stuff like this , and

6:58

it's an awareness check for us all .

7:00

It is . I think that's such a good point actually

7:02

, Laura , Because until we

7:04

went on our driver speed awareness courses

7:06

, we thought we were average , right it's

7:08

them lot over there who aren't adhering to the

7:10

limit I don't speed , but yeah remember that .

7:13

Do you realise the variable speed limit actually

7:16

was a legal limit ?

7:17

Okay , but

7:20

going back to your point , I think it's there because

7:22

they could have been creating this culture of fear

7:24

and things like well , it's just the way things are around

7:27

here . You might hear people say stuff like

7:29

that and they might go yeah , well

7:31

, it's no point talking about it because HR

7:33

always get involved , so it's always the blame

7:35

, and people don't necessarily

7:37

recognize them saying that same

7:40

thing Well , it's just the way it is . That's how it

7:42

is around here . If you want anything done , you

7:44

have to go and see so-and-so or so-and-so yeah

7:46

, go and raise that with HR . And it's that pattern

7:49

of behavior , communication

7:51

style that you hear all the time . So

7:53

they might not have that awareness that

7:55

the impact they can have on people is fear

7:57

. So they put the fear into people

8:00

about oh no , you don't want to go

8:02

to HR if you've got to raise a complaint , they don't do

8:04

anything anyway . And then they might say

8:06

it to someone else and say it to someone else . So then

8:08

it's like oh yeah , maybe I won't

8:10

. So it's really interesting that

8:12

people do it out of consciousness

8:15

sometimes , but it's just those scripts

8:17

, they've got used to it , so people avoid

8:19

saying anything or taking it further . So

8:21

, yeah , again , it's very subtle

8:23

and those people that say don't

8:25

recognize it within themselves at all and

8:28

it's only when somebody might raise it or

8:30

they get offensive about it or

8:32

they can say that's not me , what do you

8:34

mean ? It's definitely a blind spot for some

8:37

people because that's the way

8:39

they've always behaved and always created

8:41

and no one's called them on it . It is so

8:43

. I say it's underground

8:45

, that's my word , that's not how it is

8:47

, but it's just very subtle

8:49

and you don't . You sort of doubt

8:51

yourself and think maybe that's me

8:54

, have I got that wrong ? So what happens is

8:56

if you're doubting yourself about something

8:58

, then potentially there

9:00

is some coercive control going on by

9:03

either a colleague or your superior

9:06

or team leader , whatever . But it's

9:08

when you start doubting yourself , that's when

9:10

it's a bit of a warning sign to check that out

9:12

with someone and go . Is it me

9:14

or am I ? Am I going mad or

9:16

what ? How is it around

9:18

here ? Is it right that we can't go and speak to

9:20

somebody else and somebody might say , oh god

9:22

, where'd you get that from , you know ? So it's really

9:24

interesting that if we're curious

9:26

about our feeling , something

9:28

feels off , then check that feeling

9:31

out as a way of overcoming that really

9:33

. But the micromanagement is the

9:35

interesting one , but withholding information

9:38

is also a big , big

9:40

red flag as well for people , because

9:42

the language people use around

9:44

it , the way that people are behaving

9:46

, the way that they're not bringing you in

9:49

like that , gaslighting you oh , I'm sure I sent

9:51

it to you . No

9:53

, you didn't . And go yeah , I'm sure I did . And

9:56

you're doubting all of the

9:58

time whether they did or didn't . And you're

10:00

, you may be new into an organization where

10:02

you feel like you can't challenge that properly yet

10:05

, but I would say people are very

10:07

smart at this

10:09

coercive control , this manipulation , maybe

10:11

gaslighting , and it's never them . It

10:13

never them . It's always you are

10:15

the one that's caused it , or , yeah , you must be mad

10:18

. What makes you think that ? So you go ? Oh

10:20

, okay , maybe it's me .

10:23

What I think is really interesting just listening to you

10:25

sort of say those terms gaslighting

10:27

, coercive control and the manipulation

10:30

stuff . Of course we see this on reality

10:32

TV programs

10:34

, and reality TV programs love them or hate them , there

10:36

are millions upon millions of people who

10:39

find it interesting to watch these dramas

10:41

kind of play out , and I guess you know

10:43

it's using that entertainment to then almost

10:45

kind of empower yourself with . Well , we might

10:47

not be talking about , you know , some kind of romantic

10:50

sort of scenario , but actually in a professional scenario

10:52

where there's some behavior that , as you said

10:54

, it

10:59

might be really subtle , but there's just something that's left a bit of an edge and

11:01

I think , sometimes understanding the origins of these terms . So am I

11:03

right in thinking gaslighting ? That comes from the Victorian

11:05

play Gaslight , where

11:08

the husband made the wife

11:10

feel like she was going mad by

11:12

changing things and basically

11:15

unseating her power

11:17

, to then just become so wracked with

11:19

paranoia and doubt that

11:21

it then kind of sort of ruined her .

11:23

So I'm thinking that's where the phrase gaslight

11:25

came from . Yeah , that's my understanding of where it came

11:27

from as well . And it's as you say , it's

11:29

very subtle and that

11:31

person makes you think that you're the

11:33

one that's just losing it and you

11:36

go no , I'm sure . And if you're in a position of either

11:38

lack of confidence or you might be

11:40

in a position of vulnerability , or

11:43

you might find that maybe you've

11:45

lost your job and your confidence is low

11:47

because of redundancy , and so you're

11:49

, you really got a level of self-doubt maybe

11:51

going on anyway , and if

11:53

somebody then adds to that by

11:55

, you know , if you're like saying , well , yeah

11:57

, no , I definitely told you that , did you ? Or

12:00

I'm sure you left it over there and they've

12:02

moved it , and it's very subtle

12:04

, and you start doubting , and I think that's

12:07

the thing we don't always recognize the

12:09

early warning signs around it and

12:11

whether we can call it or not , because that

12:13

people go , what are you talking about ? You know , what

12:16

do you think ? Do you think I would do that to you

12:18

? You know you can hear it coming

12:20

out . And if they've either increased

12:22

your workload as well . So if you are in work and

12:24

say somebody is , how can you have that

12:26

conversation with diplomacy , where you

12:28

know it's how you approach it with

12:30

the eye . You know I've noticed

12:33

my workload has increased

12:35

significantly compared to others

12:37

. And could we discuss how

12:39

teams are assigned work , because that

12:41

will make me feel like it's

12:43

fair , so that could be something . Or

12:47

when my work is closely monitored or

12:49

you're checking everything about it beyond

12:52

what is expected , I feel it impacts

12:54

on my confidence . So can we discuss

12:56

a way to build some mutual trust ? So it's calling

12:58

it in a diplomatic way rather than going

13:01

what are you on about ? You like controlling

13:03

everything or you're ruining

13:05

my job . You know , don't you trust me ? This doesn't

13:07

feel fair , so it's . I

13:09

is holding that direct

13:11

but very respectful language around it

13:14

. It's quite . You have to be brave

13:16

to step into that space , but you have

13:18

to do it . Otherwise , as we said , most people will

13:20

leave the job because of

13:22

someone , not because of the job . And that's

13:24

where it's so hard really to I

13:27

suppose , to identify that there is

13:29

coercive control going on in

13:31

the workplace because not everybody

13:33

sticks around to explore it

13:36

, whereas I , statements can

13:38

make a big difference . I feel

13:40

uncomfortable . No one can take away how you feel

13:42

, but it's really difficult sometimes

13:45

because they will play a game with you and I know

13:47

we talk about game playing and

13:50

bring you into the drama triangle . So

13:52

we always say if you're not sure something

13:55

doesn't feel right , either talk

13:57

to someone else , keep records

13:59

of the incidents and so you're not going mad

14:01

, if you like , and just dates and conversations

14:04

you've had , because ideally , if

14:06

it's really impacting on you , you've got to

14:08

be able to produce some form of evidence

14:10

, which is really sad to say

14:12

. I don't know , I could be completely wrong , but this is what's

14:14

been happening and somebody will say

14:17

to you wow , that's not normal

14:19

or whatever normal might be . But

14:21

I think you need to know when it's the right time

14:23

to step away from stuff if it's not helping

14:25

your mental mind , health

14:27

as well , your wellbeing , self-care

14:30

is you know , because if you're going home and ruminating about

14:32

it and confidence is low and you're

14:34

feeling undervalued and

14:36

unworthy and lacking in confidence

14:39

and self-belief , then that's not good for

14:41

you physically , mentally , emotionally

14:43

. So , recognizing that

14:45

maybe things won't change at work . So you have a choice

14:47

to stay or go . But you also

14:49

have a choice to maybe raise it if you feel

14:51

that and getting people to help and support you

14:54

can be a really good

14:56

way of exploring it in a little bit more

14:58

detail . Really .

15:00

I think what else is a way to kind of use

15:02

some of these difficult situations , challenges

15:04

we might have had , is to sort of make it a commitment

15:06

to yourself never again . So if

15:09

you found yourself sort of falling into a pattern

15:11

and you think , all right , well , I'm listening to these great ways

15:13

to have conversations , but it's been like 13

15:16

years now that it's been , that you know

15:18

when is the part to have that conversation and

15:21

you know if at some point there's a choice where you're going to

15:23

be in a new scenario , it's then spotting that red

15:25

flag quickly and just making a commitment

15:27

to yourself . You know , I recognise that

15:29

there are some patterns that potentially could

15:31

be familiar ones that I fall back into , but not

15:34

this time . I'm going to spot it . Yeah , I'm going

15:36

to have that diplomatic way

15:38

to approach into

15:40

it to then be able to make

15:42

it a healthier relationship . Yeah , when

15:45

I listen to you sort of talking , you know , I know

15:47

we're all interested in how do you create

15:50

psychological safety . Yes , in

15:52

the workplace Now that's become quite a buzzword

15:54

sort of recently . Yes , in the workplace Now

15:56

that's become quite a buzzword sort of recently . And you know I've

16:02

found the whole world of health and safety just the most inspiring space to be in . Because

16:04

what is more important than making sure that there is incident and accident prevention and

16:07

bad things sort of kind of happening ? And

16:09

in order to have a safe cycle

16:11

, you know , in order to have a safe workplace you've got to have

16:14

an environment that feels just yes . So

16:16

if I speak up and I blow the whistle , I

16:18

can do so without fear of retribution or

16:21

punishment . So it might be that you

16:23

don't have a safety critical role , but you have

16:25

a role where actually it's really important that everyone

16:27

feels safe to speak up . So , from your

16:29

coach perspective and from what you're picking up , what

16:31

is this idea of having a psychologically safe workplace

16:34

and how does that link to coercive

16:37

control and just to sort of

16:39

join the dots up ?

16:40

Yeah , that's . Oh my God , Laura . It's

16:43

so complex as well , isn't it ? Because , as

16:45

you said , from a health and safety

16:47

point of view , you know what's right

16:49

and wrong . Right , you either wear a hard

16:51

hat or you don't , and then there's consequences

16:53

if you don't . But from this psychological

16:55

safety , it's really interesting to see that you

16:58

know . How do we ensure that you

17:00

know ? We know that , if

17:07

you like , our followers , if you like , we need to know what they need in order to feel safe at work psychologically

17:09

safe and they are based on hope , trust , compassion and stability

17:11

. So , when we're thinking about knowing

17:13

ourselves , knowing them , what do they like

17:15

? How do they do it ? They need to be

17:17

clear on how they provide that

17:19

environment that enables people to feel safe

17:22

, psychologically safe at work . And

17:24

I did some work with one of our clients

17:26

about this and we did some research around it

17:28

, and I cannot remember where I got this , but I

17:30

will find it and let you know , because it's not my

17:32

stuff . It was something we picked up and

17:35

they said there are four quadrants of psychological

17:37

safety in the workplace there's collaborator

17:40

safety , inclusion safety

17:42

, challenger safety and learner

17:44

safety . And when you think about

17:46

especially the collaborator safety

17:49

could be , how do we engage in

17:51

an unconstrained way ? How do we interact

17:54

with our colleagues ? What's our behaviors ? And

17:56

if you think about you know if we're micromanaging

17:59

or we are challenging . We're in an unconstrained

18:01

way . How do we interact with our colleagues ? What's our behaviours

18:03

? And if you think about you know if we're micromanaging or we are challenging

18:05

. We're not enabling people to challenge ideas without fear of retribution

18:08

. So

18:10

there might be some fear-based control already present . So therefore , that's not a psychologically

18:12

safe place to be . So , therefore , to create that psychological safety

18:14

of open communication can make

18:17

a huge difference . Maintaining

18:19

open dialogue is fostering

18:21

constructive debate , enabling

18:23

people to say what they want to say in a safe

18:25

space without judgment . So that collaborator

18:27

safety plays really well against

18:30

that coercive control . One because

18:32

it's all down to communication and

18:34

, as you mentioned earlier , that one about trust builders

18:36

and trust breakers . It's that . How

18:39

do we move from , I suppose , the power

18:41

and control to trust and empowerment , and

18:43

that has to have some form of inclusion

18:46

within that . So you know , people know

18:48

that they're valued and they're treated fairly and

18:50

consistently . They feel that their

18:52

experience matters and their ideas are

18:54

listened to and they include

18:56

others , regardless of their

18:59

title or position , and

19:01

that is interesting . We did a workshop today

19:03

, laure , with one of our other people and

19:05

we got them to have . They had

19:07

three main questions , concepts that they were

19:09

exploring . So the three leads

19:11

took the conversation and then , randomly

19:14

, we just mixed the group up . So there was

19:16

all sorts of you know the director to

19:18

the you know admin clerk to the

19:21

person that is the booker . All of that was really

19:23

mixed , but what they did was they created

19:25

that inclusion safety space

19:27

, so psychologically safe , from

19:29

an inclusion where everybody's ideas were heard

19:31

. There was no hierarchy . In that moment

19:34

, the difference you could feel , the energy

19:36

was incredible and they all went . Oh my

19:38

God , that's one of the best conversations we've ever had

19:41

. But because we created a psychologically

19:43

safe environment for them to feel

19:45

like they mattered and they could be included

19:47

in it , so that was like really

19:50

cool . Really cool to watch it and and

19:52

to I suppose subconsciously did

19:55

not connect it to that , but now we're talking about

19:57

it I went . Oh yeah , we did that without

19:59

thinking . So the safety space was created

20:01

for them to talk and therefore they

20:03

felt trusted and they therefore felt empowered

20:06

. So the shift was

20:08

moving towards them rather

20:10

than them having to ask permission or

20:12

can't make a decision because

20:15

they have to run it past their team

20:17

leader or their boss and everything else , so

20:19

that's a really important one

20:21

around it .

20:29

This isn't just about avoiding

20:31

being coercively controlling , because it stops

20:34

bad things happening . No , what this

20:36

also enables is it enables all of

20:38

that untapped opportunity , so

20:41

that ability to create a psychologically safe

20:43

place where people felt safe to be able

20:45

to actually say well , actually , in my experience

20:47

, this is what our clients are really enjoying . So how

20:49

about if we did X or Y ?

20:50

Yeah .

20:51

Then suddenly you've got a whole load of insight

20:53

that might have just sat there silently

20:56

, kind of someone sitting on it , because they don't feel safe

20:58

to be able to speak up . And what's

21:00

interesting to join the dots up , debs , is I'm

21:03

having some interesting conversations with people that

21:05

work in the quality space

21:07

in a certain industry and one of the big calls

21:09

to action that they're looking to shift

21:11

in is involve us sooner in the design

21:14

process , not just because

21:16

you have to , and it's sort of a begrudging requirement

21:18

, because if you involve us sooner

21:21

at the design stage you'll be able to

21:23

make more money , have less errors at

21:25

the end stage .

21:26

Yeah .

21:26

And it's a little bit like the safety teams have

21:28

sort of battled for the last 30 years of

21:30

get us involved at the design stage

21:32

rather than waiting for accidents to happen and then

21:34

we make patches after . Get us

21:37

in right at the start and we'll be able

21:39

to collaborate and to be able to challenge

21:41

some things that might look like it makes us money

21:43

but actually it might not work or

21:45

it might not be safe . But involvement

21:47

earlier on in the process , whereas

21:50

if it feels like , oh well , they just do

21:52

that over there and then we just inherit all

21:54

of this stuff that we then just have to sort of make

21:56

, do and move . But from a win

21:58

point of view , I guess the win

22:00

here is create an environment where people

22:02

feel safe to speak up , and

22:05

what potential could you untap

22:07

? And if you're in an industry or profession

22:09

that is currently feeling a bit embattered

22:11

at the moment , then that even

22:14

more is a call to action , of reach

22:16

out and connect and work with each other , because there might

22:18

be someone over there who's got a fantastic

22:20

idea that could really

22:22

make the difference .

22:24

Yeah , definitely Laura , and I think if

22:26

we can create that inclusive inclusion

22:29

safety , if you like , and then the

22:31

learner safety , so it's okay to ask questions

22:33

, it's okay to experiment with new ways

22:35

of doing and working , learning from

22:37

mistakes and creating new opportunities . I

22:40

think that transparency

22:42

piece around normalizing feedback

22:44

, even upwards , sideways , downwards

22:46

, whatever , so it's not just being

22:48

done to . So normalizing feedback

22:50

and we always say , don't we , laura ? Whenever we mentioned

22:52

the F word , people go please don't say

22:54

I'm going to give you some feedback , because everybody goes onto

22:57

the defensive and waiting for the rubbish

22:59

to come your way . So we make a

23:01

bit of a joke out of the

23:03

F word . But it should just be normal

23:05

conversation and if you've created

23:08

that psychologically safe space where it

23:10

can happen , then people will

23:12

feel trusted and there will be the sense

23:14

of safety to hold those

23:17

open conversations and hierarchies

23:19

get left at the door and it's

23:21

a safe space meeting , which is why we

23:24

always create a working together

23:26

agreement in any team environment

23:28

that we set up right , lord , because we know that

23:30

we have to encourage

23:32

that safe space and we don't always

23:34

know the people when we first walk into the

23:36

room and they've got to feel that

23:38

we've have done that and that

23:40

is massive when it comes to

23:42

creating the right culture of

23:44

transparency and that psychologically

23:47

inclusion , challenger safety

23:49

and so learner safety , collaborator

23:51

safety , by setting the right working agreement

23:54

.

23:54

And I think what's really interesting , when you just look very practically

23:57

, is just a tiny bit of disclosure

23:59

, a 20 second little bit of intro

24:01

as to why it's really important for you

24:03

this topic of X . Then people understand

24:06

it and then they know okay , it's not that you've got a problem with me

24:08

, it's just you're really passionate about this and

24:10

so that's why you're saying you know I

24:12

might be asking some challenging questions , yeah

24:15

. So a little bit of sort of disclosing

24:17

your context behind it , yeah , or

24:20

a bit of an explainer , and then , likewise

24:22

then to be able to sort of express

24:24

that and whether you're an introvert

24:26

, an extrovert .

24:27

Yeah .

24:27

This isn't about dominating airspace , but it's just

24:29

a little bit of insight so

24:34

people understand . I see that surface behavior and I understand what

24:36

sits beneath the iceberg . So now I

24:38

don't have to worry over the weekend thinking

24:40

that my card is marked because of a comment

24:42

you said to me on the Friday catch up . You

24:45

said that comment on the Friday catch up because I know

24:47

this is a really important project for you , so

24:49

I can rest easier over the weekend because

24:52

I know that slightly snippy remark was

24:54

just you being passionate about

24:56

that project , not having a

24:58

problem with me , and so that little bit of

25:00

an explainer can just then mean

25:03

from a communication point of view , so many people over

25:05

the years have said you know , the problem is our business

25:07

or our organisation doesn't communicate . And

25:09

then they say we're inundated with emails . So

25:12

, it's not about volume of communication

25:14

. I think we've got that licked .

25:16

There's enough email going around .

25:18

It's actually , I think , what people are understanding is help me

25:20

understand the nuances behind it so

25:23

I can read into what you're saying , so

25:25

I can know what I need to focus on and what's

25:27

in and out or out of my control .

25:29

Yeah , oh , my God , a hundred percent . I'm with you , laura

25:31

, because I think you know , healthy workplaces

25:33

thrive on trust , not fear , and

25:35

the way we can communicate that is

25:38

down to us . Our communication is everything

25:40

, because you know we shouldn't be

25:42

working in a place where trust

25:49

and respect and

25:51

empowerment and autonomy to

25:54

some extent thrive , because

25:56

that means that you know we can help

25:58

with small changes

26:00

. You know , and small actions can create

26:02

big changes in a culture and an

26:04

environment if we want to . So

26:06

you know it's making sure that we

26:09

can , I suppose , have

26:11

that healthy workplace . It's making sure

26:13

that . Are we in

26:15

a place where it's coercively controlled

26:17

? Have I witnessed that in my previous workplace

26:20

or in my current one ? And then , what small

26:22

steps can I take to either push back or

26:24

speak up or foster a sense of

26:26

change as to how we work around

26:29

here and reset the working environment

26:31

or the perceived control that's going on ? And

26:35

I think , also as a responsibility

26:37

as a leader and a manager

26:40

, that it's your responsibility to prevent

26:42

those behaviors , I think , from creeping

26:44

in , because that's not

26:46

great , and I think the more we talk

26:48

about it and get recognized by it , we

26:51

should be guiding , not controlling , and

26:54

providing that ongoing training around emotional

26:56

intelligence and ethical management and

26:58

all of that stuff . So how we can

27:00

train people to work

27:03

in a I suppose , foster a transparent

27:06

and psychologically safe workspace . Yeah

27:08

, I think that has to come from the top as well

27:10

, but we also can influence it from whatever position

27:13

we're in , by how we show up , never

27:15

underestimate the impact you

27:17

can have in a room .

27:19

And yeah , and just just how you know , just other

27:21

people have been able to watch . Oh , actually I really admire

27:23

the way that they asked that question

27:25

there , because we were all thinking it , but actually

27:28

they asked that question and actually

27:30

that that switched the game around , you know , that

27:32

kind of that kind of shifted the energy a bit . So

27:34

, debs , a lot of this stuff is

27:37

kind of looking inward and

27:39

being quite reflective . What would be a practical

27:42

action that you think would

27:44

be a good one to focus on for anyone for

27:46

whom is listening and they're thinking yeah , actually

27:48

I can hear a bit about what they're saying

27:51

and I can see some of that stuff here . What would

27:53

be a call to action ?

27:54

Oh , that's such a good one . I think , yeah

27:56

, what am I thinking ? What would be ? My call to action would

27:58

be to know don't face it alone . If

28:01

you feel that something's not quite right

28:03

, then find your trusted ally , find

28:06

a source , speak to somebody else to check

28:08

in . I might have got this completely

28:10

wrong , but this is what I'm feeling . I might go , oh , no

28:12

, you're right . Yeah , you're right . Oh

28:14

, that's exactly that's how it is around here . And

28:17

then we have a choice . So I think , yeah

28:19

, check it out first , because if

28:21

you talk to your friends , they're going to tell you get

28:23

out . That's not a place to be , but

28:25

it might be that subtle shifting

28:28

that gives you that opportunity to go . No

28:30

, I am going to have a conversation about it

28:32

and step into that , because I actually

28:34

love what I'm doing and I love the people . It's just maybe

28:37

one person . So , yeah

28:39

, checking it out , sussing out what you can do

28:41

, speaking to other people , maybe having

28:43

a bit of a plan for a script and a conversation

28:46

going , but don't let it fester

28:48

, because that's not healthy .

28:50

Don't not call it out , you know , is what I would say

28:52

, and I think sometimes that sense of relief

28:54

when you think , oh , I'm not the only one , so my share , the

28:56

secret would be if you've got a friend or a colleague

28:58

who you know , this is a bit of a familiar topic , you

29:01

know . Our goal in all of this is to sort of help

29:03

support us in this ever evolving world

29:05

of work , and it's been a pretty full

29:07

on first five years in this decade

29:10

, and I'm sure there's more joys to come

29:12

, and sometimes change and uncertainty

29:14

can impact even the nicest

29:16

people . In some ways that means we have

29:18

some blind spots . You know we all intend to drive

29:20

well , but there'll be some times where your eyes

29:22

off the ball and you might have forgotten to say thank you

29:25

. And so , yeah , if the general intention is we

29:27

work well with each other , just sometimes it can misfire

29:29

. So get someone to listen to this and just

29:31

give some handy hints , for you're not alone

29:33

. There

29:38

are some practical things you can do . It doesn't mean it's easy . It sounds so simple when you sort of

29:40

think about this stuff , but just kind of gearing yourself up to

29:42

do something to make it better , because

29:44

if you're stuck in traffic , you're

29:46

part of traffic . If you're there

29:48

in a culture and it's feeling all a bit

29:50

icky , then you're part of that culture

29:52

and you could start making a difference . So I think

29:55

that would be my share of the secret

29:57

.

29:57

Oh my God , I love that . Yeah , it's such a broad

29:59

topic , laura , we could talk about it , and I know we're going

30:01

to get one of our previous guests

30:03

to come back and talk about this in another later

30:06

episode because it is so

30:08

vast and it covers so many different

30:10

aspects of it . So , yeah , I'm looking forward

30:12

to that as well , but it's been a great month of

30:14

talking about time too , hasn't

30:16

it ?

30:17

Yeah , it really has , and of

30:19

course , what this means is we've got a new

30:22

topic and

30:24

our next four-part focus is looking at

30:26

book review yes , we

30:28

did this a little while ago , didn't we ? With some

30:30

of our other books . Yeah , we did , we

30:32

, we got good people going .

30:34

Oh my God , it was just I didn't realise that

30:36

they went out and read the book or just

30:39

got there what they needed from it to understand it

30:41

. So , yeah , we thought we'd bring it back , didn't we , laure ?

30:43

Yeah , we did so for all you people who like

30:45

the idea of reading a book you just don't have time to

30:47

. Then we've

30:50

done the hard work for you , we've scoured through

30:52

them and then we're going to just kind of give a

30:54

bit of a light touch on each of those

30:56

four books in the pursuit of just increasing

30:58

our level of continuing professional development and

31:01

being able to open up even more

31:03

alternatives and choices when you're looking

31:05

at some of the opportunities and challenges ahead

31:07

. So , devs , have a wonderful

31:09

week . You too , laura , have a good

31:12

rest of a workshop yes , thank you

31:14

, and I hope you're not going to send me any of those snidey

31:16

comments where you BCC all the team

31:18

in as you go about your coercively

31:20

controlling little ways , my coercively controlling little ways

31:23

of going .

31:23

Hmm , am I being disrespectful and

31:25

not transparent ? Yes , I'm just going to drop

31:28

it in there , thompson are you

31:30

joining us on this meeting . Yeah , come on

31:32

. Sorry , mrs Green . Where are you , rather

31:36

than just bloody turn up ?

31:40

I love it . Oh my God , it's a good one to talk

31:42

about , isn't it ?

31:42

Because we just do it and don't

31:45

realise sometimes the impact that it

31:47

can have , especially if someone's not in a great place

31:49

. So , yeah , we'll talk more about this

31:51

topic because it's a hot one .

31:52

It is Right , debs . Well , have a fantastic

31:55

week .

31:55

Yes , you too , lots of love , love

31:57

you .

32:02

Bye . We

32:07

hope you've enjoyed this podcast . We'd love to hear from you . Email us at contact , at

32:09

secretsfromacoachcom , or follow us on Insta or

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32:13

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32:15

people to find us , and if you want to know

32:17

. Thank you , work .