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approval. Hello

2:16

and welcome to Seeing Red, a

2:18

true crime podcast, I'm Mark. And

2:20

I'm Bethan, welcome everybody, thank you

2:22

for joining us once again this

2:25

week. Before we get into this

2:27

week's episode, let's take a moment

2:29

to thank our most recent patron

2:31

supporters. Bethan I'm going to let

2:33

you do the honours because I got

2:35

to do it last week. Yeah, oh

2:38

that's the nice, thank you. So yeah,

2:40

huge thank you to our newest patron

2:42

supporters this week. So we have Lisa

2:44

Horsley, Paige Bradley, Amy Golds, Amy Johnston.

2:47

Emily Macrum, Becker Cowgirl, Grace Westwood Sturridge

2:49

and Rachel Hutchinson. Thank you so much

2:51

each and every one of you. Thank

2:54

you to all of you and thanks

2:56

of course to all of our existing

2:58

patron supporters too. If you would like

3:01

to join these people all you need

3:03

to do is head over to patreon.com/scene

3:05

red podcast and we'll see you there

3:07

for lots of bonus content. We also

3:10

have a few buy me a coffee

3:12

coffee as well Beth and I'm going

3:14

to let you do the honours on

3:17

these as well. Amazing, thank you so

3:19

much guys. So let me just get

3:21

back to the right bit of my

3:24

page. So a huge thank you to

3:26

Sarah Jardine and Wendy Hay who recommended

3:28

last week's case are listener and patron

3:30

support to Andy Hay and then also

3:33

thank you to the anonymous person as

3:35

well. So thank you so much all

3:37

three of you guys. This week we're

3:40

heading to Blackpool, a bustling seaside resort

3:42

town in Lancashire in England situated on

3:44

the North West Coast along the Irish

3:47

Sea. Renowned for its lively entertainment, vibrant

3:49

nightlife and quintessential British seaside charm, Blackpool

3:51

remains one of the UK's most iconic

3:53

holiday destinations. And I feel like I've

3:56

asked you this before Bethan and I

3:58

think the answer is yes, but have

4:00

you been to Blackpool? before? The answer

4:03

is actually no I have not been

4:05

to Blackpool before but I do like

4:07

strictly and they always go to Blackpool

4:10

for one of their episodes because it's

4:12

the the home of British ballroom dancing

4:14

but no I've never been. I was

4:16

convinced that we'd have that very conversation.

4:19

I feel like we have. Yeah I

4:21

thought we've talked about it but no

4:23

I'm not. Blackpool is home to the

4:26

iconic Blackpool Tower which opened in 1894

4:28

and was inspired by the Eiffel Tower

4:30

in Paris and the town's rise as

4:33

a popular tourist destination began during the

4:35

Victorian era thanks really to the arrival

4:37

of the railway which made it easily

4:39

accessible to working class visitors from industrial

4:42

cities. Throughout the Victorian

4:44

and Edwardian periods, Blackpool thrived and

4:46

the blend of Victorian grandeur, an

4:48

art deco elegance that still defines

4:50

a town today is perhaps a

4:53

testimony to a more prosperous time.

4:55

In the mid-20th century, the town

4:57

became known for its lively entertainment

4:59

scene, with comedians, musicians and dancers

5:01

performing in venues like the Grand

5:03

Theatre and the affil-mentioned Blackpool Tower

5:05

ballroom, which I think any strictly

5:08

fan in the UK is going

5:10

to... associate that with Strictly Come

5:12

Dancing. Yeah, with their springy floor

5:14

and that sort of thing. My

5:16

friend Steph has gone to Blackpool,

5:18

so maybe we've talked about her

5:21

going or something like that. Yeah,

5:23

we may have done. So this

5:25

really was the peak time for

5:27

Blackpool. In the 1950s and 60s,

5:29

Blackpool was the top holiday destination

5:31

in the UK, major big-dick energy

5:33

there. And I was surprised at

5:36

that. I didn't think it was

5:38

ever the top destination. Oh white

5:40

sea birds I could totally see

5:42

that. I feel like people just

5:44

have loved it for a very

5:46

long time. I feel like it's

5:48

a bit out on a limb

5:51

but I guess not maybe it's

5:53

more in the in the middle

5:55

of the country so that kind

5:57

of works. These days Blackpool remains

5:59

a popular tourist destination attracting millions

6:01

of visitors every year. But despite

6:03

significant investment in the town and

6:06

extensive regeneration, I think it is

6:08

fair to say that the town

6:10

has experienced more than its fair

6:12

share of social and economic decline

6:14

in recent years. But I'm not

6:16

here to knock Blackpool, in fact

6:18

to have many fond childhood memories

6:21

of sunny day spent on its

6:23

beach. The town still offers a

6:25

lot to its visitors and residents

6:27

and it remains particularly popular among

6:29

low-income families and also retirees and

6:31

those on benefits and that's because

6:33

it offers more affordable housing compared

6:36

to the surrounding towns and cities.

6:38

Each year thousands of people move

6:40

to Blackpool from across the UK.

6:42

However it is perhaps worth noting

6:44

that more people leave the town

6:46

than move to the town which

6:48

results in a net population decline

6:51

year after year. Despite this however

6:53

Blackpool remains a desirable place to

6:55

live for many many people. According

6:57

to data from the Office for

6:59

National Statistics around 5,700 people moved

7:01

to Blackpool from other parts of

7:04

the UK in 2016. Among them

7:06

that year was 21 year old

7:08

Debbie Leach and her mother Elaine

7:10

Clark who relocated with Debbie's three

7:12

siblings, that's Elaine's other children, from

7:14

Leats where they'd lived since 2014.

7:16

Before living in Leeds the family

7:19

had lived in Hastings in East

7:21

Sussex and that's where Debbie was

7:23

born to Mum Elaine and her

7:25

partner Tom. The couple separated when

7:27

Debbie was still very young and

7:29

Elaine raised her children as a

7:31

single mother. There were occasional relationships

7:34

but most of them were not

7:36

particularly serious. Born with Down syndrome

7:38

Debbie's needs were complex and varied.

7:40

Down syndrome is a genetic condition

7:42

that occurs when a person is

7:44

born with an extra copy of

7:46

chromosome 21. This extra genetic material

7:49

affects physical developments, learning ability and

7:51

health. Usually the result of a

7:53

random genetic error during cell division

7:55

in early pregnancy, around one in

7:57

every thousand and babies born in

7:59

the UK has Down syndrome. And

8:01

I hated, that's how it's described

8:04

in medical terms. I didn't really

8:06

like to use the word genetic

8:08

error at all. So apologies for

8:10

using that term. It's a weird

8:12

one, isn't it? Yeah. It made

8:14

me feel a bit uneasy to

8:16

hear, even though, of course, that

8:19

is the technical medical term and

8:21

the technical medical kind of wording

8:23

to use. Yeah. Yeah, it made

8:25

me feel a little uneasy as

8:27

easy as well. I get why

8:29

you might feel a bit weird

8:32

saying having to say that. Although

8:34

Down syndrome can have a detrimental

8:36

impact on cognitive ability and physical

8:38

health, with the right level of

8:40

medical care, education and social and

8:42

domestic support, people with Down syndrome

8:44

can lead long and fulfilling lives.

8:47

Now before moving to Blackpool in

8:49

2016, Debbie had a relatively active

8:51

and fulfilling life in Leeds. She

8:53

attended a daycare centre there, she

8:55

went to college, she had friends

8:57

and a boyfriend, Those who knew

8:59

her described her as shy at

9:02

first but warm and outgoing once

9:04

she got to know someone and

9:06

they said she had a cheeky

9:08

side to her personality too. Although

9:10

she was slightly overweight at just

9:12

over 10 stone and there is

9:14

a reason for me talking about

9:17

her weight here which will become

9:19

clear later on, she was otherwise

9:21

physically healthy. Photos from that time

9:23

show her smiling brightly and a

9:25

picture of innocence. Debbie was kind-hearted

9:27

and had a natural ability to

9:29

see the best in people. She

9:32

loved horses and would spend hours

9:34

brushing her long hair, and she

9:36

adored her mom, Elaine. She idolised

9:38

her. However, despite those moments of

9:40

happiness, life wasn't always great for

9:42

Debbie. Even before the families moved

9:44

to Blackpool, signs of neglect were

9:47

beginning to emerge. Staff at the

9:49

daycare centre in Leeds noticed her

9:51

clothing was often dirty and ill-fitting.

9:53

They also observed that she had

9:55

headliffs and frequently arrived without a

9:57

packed lunch, which in turn raised

10:00

concerns about the care she was

10:02

with. receiving at home. Oh that's

10:04

really really sad because this isn't

10:06

this is somebody who really would

10:08

not be able to make those

10:10

choices and those decisions for themselves

10:12

and and actually wouldn't wouldn't really

10:15

feel you know if this was

10:17

a child perhaps they might even

10:19

feel some sort of shame or

10:21

want to try and do something

10:23

differently and help that you know

10:25

go and potentially even ask for

10:27

help or or reach out in

10:30

some way but I imagine that

10:32

Debbie wouldn't have really been able

10:34

to or really wanted to either.

10:36

I don't think she would have

10:38

really known that she could. No,

10:40

well like you say she may

10:42

not have felt those feelings of

10:45

shame or embarrassment that a child

10:47

may have felt and I don't

10:49

know why but it almost makes

10:51

it or the sadder that she

10:53

was oblivious to the judgments that

10:55

people were making. on her home

10:57

life and on her as well.

11:00

Not in a horrible way necessarily,

11:02

but just natural judgments that people

11:04

make when somebody turns up in

11:06

dirty clothes or has headlice. So

11:08

yeah, it just makes it almost

11:10

worse I think for me. Yeah.

11:12

And anybody that I've ever known

11:15

who has a child or a

11:17

family member with dance syndrome or

11:19

people I have known personally with

11:21

down syndrome, they're always the quickest

11:23

to have a smile and to

11:25

love and to be... generous with

11:28

their kindness. How sad that you

11:30

described it, like people said that

11:32

she really did idolise her mum,

11:34

and I could see that no

11:36

matter what's going on and what

11:38

neglect there is, that she also

11:40

still wouldn't, she would still love

11:43

her mum and idolise her. During

11:45

their childhood Debbie and her three

11:47

siblings were placed on the child

11:49

protection register due to serious concerns

11:51

about their welfare and elain's ability

11:53

to care for them. Each of

11:55

Elaine's children had learning or physical

11:58

disabilities and social services had been

12:00

involved in all of their lives

12:02

at various points. However, frequent moves

12:04

across the UK led to poor

12:06

coordination between safeguarding agencies, allowing their

12:08

neglects to go largely unnoticed. Elaine

12:10

struggled to provide proper care for

12:13

her children, perpetuating a cycle of

12:15

neglect. Whilst she had faced challenges

12:17

in her own upbringing, the suffering

12:19

she inflicted on her children, specifically

12:21

Debbie, was far, far worse. As

12:23

I said earlier, upon moving to

12:25

Blackpool in 2016, events took a

12:28

dramatic term for the worse. Although

12:30

Debbie had experienced a relatively fulfilling

12:32

life during her two years and

12:34

leads, her move to Blackpool marked

12:36

the start of a devastating downward

12:38

spiral, where neglects abuse and isolation

12:40

reigns supreme. Yeah, because she had

12:43

a boyfriend and she had friends

12:45

and she enjoyed going to the

12:47

social club and stuff. And then

12:49

she would have had to have

12:51

left all that behind. You're not

12:53

going to keep up her long-distance

12:55

relationship in this sort of scenario.

12:58

So that's really sad that she's

13:00

just, yeah. I thought like maybe

13:02

they'd moved for a better life.

13:04

I felt like obviously Debbie was

13:06

clearly going to be at the

13:08

heart of the story, but I

13:11

thought someone else would do something

13:13

maybe to harm her or she

13:15

was in harm's way in some

13:17

other way. I didn't expect that

13:19

it was her mum and that's

13:21

sad that the move wasn't a

13:23

good one after all. No, it

13:26

wasn't at all. And Debbie was

13:28

indeed heartbroken to leave her friends

13:30

behind in Leeds. As I mentioned

13:32

she did lead an active and

13:34

somewhat fulfilling life there. But after

13:36

moving to Blackpool everything changed. There

13:38

were no more social outings, no

13:41

daycare, no friends, no boyfriend, isolated

13:43

from the outside world, Debbie became

13:45

trapped in her filthy bedroom, which

13:47

was just a stone's throw from

13:49

the vibrant attractions of Blackpool. Yet

13:51

she was completely cut off from

13:53

the joy they offered. And I

13:56

looked at, because her address was

13:58

published in the newspaper, in the

14:00

reports, various reports that I read,

14:02

so I looked it up on

14:04

the map and she was, it

14:06

really was just... a stone's throw

14:08

from the beach for example. So

14:11

she was right there in the

14:13

heart of Blackpool next to all

14:15

of those amazing tourist attractions it

14:17

has to offer and she never

14:19

got to experience any of them.

14:21

And if you know if you've

14:23

got your window open you can

14:26

hear other people having a wonderful

14:28

time and laughing and kids playing

14:30

and stuff and you're in your

14:32

room and you don't get to

14:34

enjoy any of that that's really

14:36

really sad. Yeah it does remind

14:39

me of prisoners. who were locked

14:41

up in a cell and for

14:43

example in Bristol I talk about

14:45

that prison from time to time

14:47

so H&P Bristol it's pretty much

14:49

I don't know about a mile

14:51

from the city centre but it's

14:54

spitting distance from loads of bars

14:56

and restaurants and nightclubs and all

14:58

of that and I always think

15:00

that and they deserve this if

15:02

they're in prison but they it

15:04

must just be Awful for them

15:06

to hear from their cell people

15:09

outside having fun and enjoying themselves.

15:11

Yeah, it reminds me of the

15:13

Johnny Cash song, Folsom Prison, where

15:15

he's kind of like, I can

15:17

hear the train going by and

15:19

I'm just languishing in prison. Yeah.

15:21

And I don't get to go

15:24

anywhere. Yeah, exactly. Debbie was already

15:26

on well when she arrived in

15:28

Blackpool. And it's likely that Elaine

15:30

relocated the family from Leeds in

15:32

order to escape the scrutiny of

15:34

social services there. Debbie had Norwegian

15:36

scabees, a condition often linked to

15:39

severe neglect. Oh gosh, I mean

15:41

I've heard of scabees, but oh

15:43

blesser, that's horrible. And this is

15:45

also known as crusted scabees and

15:47

it's a really highly contagious skin

15:49

disease. And this particular scabees disease

15:51

is caused by the Sarkotee scabee

15:54

scabeye I might. and the term

15:56

Norwegian scabees originates from its first

15:58

documented cases in Norway in the

16:00

19th century. And unlike typical scabees

16:02

which causes itchy rashes with a

16:04

few mites, Norwegian scabees can... thousands

16:07

or even millions of mites leading

16:09

to thick crusted skin and severe

16:11

infestations. Oh my gosh because I've

16:13

heard of scabees anyway but that's

16:15

yeah a million times as bad

16:17

is oh god it's almost imaginable

16:19

isn't it the how I mean

16:22

I suffer with skin issues and

16:24

Exmer is the worst for me

16:26

and I have lots of allergies

16:28

and that's horrendous enough this sounds...

16:30

Oh, this is horrible already. This

16:32

sounds heartbreaking. And yeah, if social

16:34

services were starting to be aware

16:37

of something like this, and if

16:39

she was going to social club

16:41

or whatever, they might pick up

16:43

on that and then, so the

16:45

mum's moved, rather than actually getting

16:47

her some proper medical treatment. I

16:49

think the, I mean, I don't

16:52

know this, but I think the

16:54

rationale behind that decision to move

16:56

was... My daughter Debbie is going

16:58

to be reported. She's going to

17:00

we're going to get social services

17:02

involved again and they will take

17:04

her out of my home and

17:07

therefore I will not receive the

17:09

benefits and the carers allowance of

17:11

250 pounds a week. So I

17:13

honestly think that was the reason

17:15

behind you. Yeah. You can definitely

17:17

see that that could be, couldn't

17:19

you? Yeah, I can't be bothered

17:22

to help her and treat this

17:24

awful disease because that's too much

17:26

work and I'll come on to

17:28

talk about it in a bit

17:30

more detail in a moment, but

17:32

equally I don't want people to

17:35

notice and for the wrong people

17:37

to take her away from me.

17:39

because financially should lose out. And

17:41

I didn't know much about scabes

17:43

before researching this, and what I

17:45

found out is absolutely appalling, so

17:47

I'm going to go into some

17:50

detail now, and it's pretty graphic.

17:52

Norwegian scabes is a debilitating and

17:54

painful condition that differs from regular

17:56

scabes in its severity and spread.

17:58

While typical scabes is often localised,

18:00

Norwegian scabes can affect large areas.

18:02

of the body. It causes thick,

18:05

dry, scaly and crusted patches of

18:07

skin teeming with mites and eggs.

18:09

The skin may become inflamed, swollen

18:11

or cracked, creating an entry point

18:13

for serious bacterial infections and this

18:15

can lead to oozing saws and

18:17

a foul odor. Treating the condition

18:20

requires an aggressive approach, combining medications,

18:22

skin care and thorough environmental cleaning.

18:24

and if left untreated it can

18:26

be fatal. And for someone with

18:28

Down syndrome, you're not going to

18:30

be, depending on how it affected

18:32

her abilities, you just imagine, you

18:35

know, she's not going to be

18:37

able to apply treatments and ointments

18:39

and stuff, I imagine, she's not

18:41

going to be in a position

18:43

where she's able to then clean

18:45

her room, you know, thoroughly and

18:47

that sort of thing as well.

18:50

She is wholly dependent on her

18:52

mother Elaine for her care needs

18:54

and Elaine absolutely failed in that.

18:56

And she's not, oh gosh, and

18:58

I mean, so is this, you

19:00

say it can be fatal, is

19:02

it treatable? Yeah, absolutely, yeah, if

19:05

the right topical creams and antibiotics

19:07

are used and applied, this is

19:09

something that would generally clear up

19:11

in a matter of weeks. but

19:13

there is significant work required, which

19:15

I will come on to in

19:18

a second, in order to ensure

19:20

that the infestation is gone for

19:22

good. I suppose it's like if

19:24

you get fleas within your house

19:26

from a pet, you can't just

19:28

get rid of the fleas as

19:30

the eggs, there's everything else that

19:33

goes along with it. I guess

19:35

it must be similar. Yeah, absolutely,

19:37

but even worse than fleas. Oh

19:39

goodness. Debbie endured Norwegian scabies for

19:41

years. but she never received the

19:43

care and attention she so desperately

19:45

needed. Elaine did take her to

19:48

the doctor where a topical cream

19:50

was prescribed but it's highly unlikely

19:52

that she applied it to Deb.

19:54

is broken and inflamed skin. Despite

19:56

being both Debbie's mother and her

19:58

paid caregiver, as I said, receiving

20:00

around 200 pounds a week to

20:03

look after her, Elaine was willfully

20:05

neglectful. The house in Blackpool was

20:07

in a squalid condition. It was

20:09

filthy, damp and utterly unkempt. Elaine

20:11

didn't clean and she certainly wasn't

20:13

about to undertake the deep sanitation

20:15

required to eliminate scabies. The level

20:18

of cleaning needed to achieve that

20:20

would have been immense. You would

20:22

need to wash all towels and

20:24

bedding at 60 degrees. Seal non-washable

20:26

items like pillows in air type

20:28

bags for a week in order

20:30

to suffocate the mites. You'd need

20:33

to steam clean carpets, disinfect surfaces,

20:35

bleach the shit out of every

20:37

corner of the entire house because

20:39

these mites are like cockroaches. They

20:41

are relentless and really hard to

20:43

eradicate. And Elaine was never... going

20:46

to get her hands dirty in

20:48

order to provide a safe home

20:50

for her children. So even if

20:52

she was applying the topical creams

20:54

to Debbie Skin, that was only

20:56

getting to solve the problem for

20:58

so long yet because the mites

21:01

were going to be crawling around

21:03

the house and as soon as

21:05

Debbie would be treated they would

21:07

be back anyway. And I don't

21:09

know if you're going to go

21:11

on to this, so sorry if

21:13

I'm jumping ahead, but you say

21:16

obviously this is highly contagious. Was

21:18

anybody else in the family in

21:20

the home affected? Do we know?

21:22

Yeah, I did wonder that myself.

21:24

I couldn't see anything from the

21:26

reports and the research that was

21:28

done. I would assume so because

21:31

it is highly contagious. However, Debbie

21:33

was largely confined to her bedroom

21:35

and certainly in, you know, as

21:37

we get towards 2019, she was

21:39

just... pretty much left to her

21:41

own devices so they weren't necessarily

21:43

having very close contact with her

21:46

but yeah I would assume that

21:48

yeah even so it would have

21:50

been rife in that house yeah

21:52

it reminds me of um sorry

21:54

as well because your your descriptions

21:56

are graphic but this is horrible

21:58

as well so if anybody's listening

22:01

I mean hopefully no one's listening

22:03

while they're eating anyway and but

22:05

something that terrifies me having young

22:07

children is when they will potentially

22:09

get worms which is just ruh

22:11

yeah yeah but you have to

22:14

do similar like everything has to

22:16

be on a boil wash I

22:18

mean it's not quite as bad

22:20

as this because it's not like

22:22

having a cockroach type of you

22:24

know insane to kill kind of

22:26

creature but similar you know the

22:29

whole house has to be nuked

22:31

basically with hot water washes and

22:33

to clean and everybody has to

22:35

do the best hand washing and

22:37

it's you know you've got to

22:39

take medication all of that sort

22:41

of thing and it can spread

22:44

around the family very very quickly

22:46

as well and I mean it's

22:48

why again I suppose it's coming

22:50

at it from a normal parent

22:52

point of view this is why

22:54

you encourage hand washing and and

22:56

healthy safe cleaning procedures and you

22:59

clean your home. but obviously Elaine

23:01

isn't doing that and is allowing

23:03

this to get worse and worse.

23:05

And she's not washing Debbie's clothes,

23:07

she's not helping Debbie to wash

23:09

herself. No, of course, because she

23:11

was already wearing dirty clothes, wasn't

23:14

she? Yeah. So there's no hope

23:16

in how that they're ever going

23:18

to get rid of that. In

23:21

2018, two years after moving to

23:23

Blackpool, Debbie was admitted to hospital

23:25

where she received treatment for her

23:27

condition before being discharged with a

23:29

treatment plan. And I thought really

23:31

that was one of the few

23:33

chances to actually cure this condition

23:35

because she'd be in hospital, she's

23:37

not in that environment where these

23:39

mites are running. loose all over

23:41

the furniture and the clothes and

23:43

the bedding. So she's out of

23:45

that environment. They can treat her,

23:48

get her free of that disease.

23:50

But of course she's then going

23:52

back into that filthy disgusting home,

23:54

back into those dirty soil bed

23:56

sheets and those dirty clothes that

23:58

she... she's always wearing because her

24:00

mother is not washing her clothes.

24:02

So yeah, she's going to be

24:04

potentially cured or on the path

24:06

to recovery and being cured of

24:08

it, but the minute she's back

24:10

in that house, it's going to

24:12

happen all over again. When a

24:14

follow-up appointment at the hospital wasn't

24:16

kept, they made a safeguarding referral

24:18

to adult social services. And I

24:20

will delve into the significant failings

24:23

of the various agencies responsible for

24:25

Debbie's safeguarding and care later. But

24:27

for now, it's enough to say

24:29

that this referral to adult social

24:31

services came to absolutely nothing. This

24:33

is so frustrating. We see this

24:35

time and time again. I won't

24:37

say too much. We'll go, like

24:39

you said, we're going to hear

24:41

about that, and we'll hear more

24:43

about this later on, but how

24:45

frustrating. And it always frustrates me

24:47

so much because I know people

24:49

who work in social care, whether

24:51

it's adults or children, I have

24:53

friends, we have listeners who work

24:55

in different agencies. So we know

24:58

full well there are really really

25:00

good people who do really really

25:02

difficult jobs and they do that

25:04

and it's hard and it's horrible

25:06

and it's difficult but then you

25:08

hear cases like this and you

25:10

see this catalogue of errors and

25:12

lists of where things could have

25:14

been picked up and it's just

25:16

so upsetting isn't it? Yeah and

25:18

you think I will come on

25:20

to it as I said a

25:22

bit later on but social workers

25:24

were visiting the home. on a

25:26

pretty regular basis to be honest.

25:28

Yeah, not necessarily for Debbie, but

25:30

for the other children and there

25:33

was a grandchild living in the

25:35

home as well. So social services

25:37

were involved with the family, they

25:39

were at the house and they

25:41

must have seen the state that

25:43

it was in, but still it

25:45

wasn't enough to take affirmative action

25:47

to safeguard Debbie or the other

25:49

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26:48

on Green Light. Throughout 2019, family

26:50

members and friends who visited Elaine's

26:52

home couldn't ignore the disturbing decline

26:54

in Debbie's condition. She had become

26:56

alarmingly thin. Her once long hair

26:58

was now reduced to a ragged

27:00

mess, as if it had been

27:02

hacked off without any care. Concerned

27:04

relatives who questioned Elaine about Debbie's

27:07

welfare were swiftly dismissed, their worries

27:09

brushed aside, and... The scabes condition

27:11

was so bad at this time,

27:13

particularly in 2019, that Debbie's hair

27:15

was basically falling out. So I

27:17

don't know whether it had been

27:19

hacked off by Elaine, her mum,

27:21

in an attempt to make it

27:23

look more even and uniform, or

27:25

whether it was just literally, mostly

27:27

falling out because she had a

27:29

huge rash all over her scalp.

27:32

And that was obviously, yeah, causing

27:34

her to fall out. And also

27:36

she might have been pulling her

27:38

out with the itching itching and...

27:40

Yeah, and the pain and the

27:42

stress of it the stress could

27:44

have caused her to lose her

27:46

hair or to develop that desire

27:48

to Pull it her hair and

27:50

pull it out I don't know,

27:52

but yeah, it's um And like

27:55

you said at the beginning with

27:57

her, you know, she was really

27:59

proud of her hair she'd spend

28:01

ages just brushing her hair and

28:03

admiring her hair that's so sad

28:05

it really means a lot doesn't it

28:07

your hair? Yeah absolutely yeah huge

28:10

part of a woman's identity in

28:12

particular and yeah it was really

28:14

shocking for Elaine's family I think

28:17

it was Elaine's sister and her

28:19

niece that visited fairly frequently and

28:22

They were really, really shocked. When

28:24

we get to 2019, they're really

28:26

shocked at Debbie's appearance and how

28:29

she has deteriorated so swiftly. During

28:31

a visit in April 2019, the

28:33

true extent of Debbie's suffering

28:36

became horrifyingly clear. Elaine insisted

28:38

her daughter should be left

28:40

alone, but her cousin refused

28:42

and stepped into her room.

28:45

The moment she did, a foul

28:47

stench filled her nostrils. The room was

28:49

dark, filthy and incomplete disarray.

28:51

In the gloom Debbie was

28:54

huddled beneath the covers, barely

28:56

moving. When encouraged to come

28:58

out, she did, but it was clear

29:01

now that she was struggling to walk.

29:03

Her stained pajamas clung to her

29:05

frail body, so heavily soiled they

29:07

appeared to be rotting. Tears

29:09

streamed down Debbie's face as she

29:12

called for her mummy lane. and

29:14

I think that was her calling

29:16

for Elaine, her mum, because she

29:18

was in pain and despite Elaine

29:20

not caring for her, she still

29:23

idolised her mum and she still

29:25

looked for comfort from her when

29:27

she wasn't well or in pain

29:29

or needed support and time and

29:32

again her mum let her down.

29:34

This is just so heartbreaking.

29:36

It's one of the most upsetting cases

29:38

I've ever covered and it really

29:40

reminded me of the case of

29:42

Kaylee Titford, the 16-year-old girl who

29:44

was living with Spina Bifida. I

29:46

think it was in Wales we

29:49

went to for that episode and

29:51

her mom and dad neglected her

29:53

bed. Left to rot essentially and

29:55

she died. I think that was

29:57

in 2020. I think we covered

29:59

it in... 2023 in season 9.

30:01

But yeah, there were so many

30:03

echoes to that case with Debbie's

30:05

story and yeah, I kept thinking

30:08

back to Kaley and this is

30:10

around the same kind of time.

30:12

They were both prisoners in their

30:14

bedrooms suffering at the hands of

30:16

the people that should have provided

30:18

the most care for them and

30:21

that was happening simultaneously. It's just

30:23

horrible to think. You know, 100

30:25

miles or so apart, you know,

30:27

they were both going through that.

30:30

As I said, the family was

30:32

horrified. Elaine's sister, unable to stand

30:34

by any longer, issued her with

30:36

an ultimatum. If Debbie's condition didn't

30:38

improve within two weeks, she would

30:40

report Elaine to the authorities. In

30:42

the weeks that followed, Elaine offered

30:44

false reassurances, claiming that Debbie was

30:47

up and out of bed, showered,

30:49

dressed and eating well, but of

30:51

course in reality nothing had changed.

30:53

Fast forward two months to June

30:55

2019. and Elaine once again sought

30:57

treatment for Debbie's worsening skin condition.

30:59

Debbie was prescribed antibiotics and a

31:01

topical cream. At the end of

31:03

the month Elaine informed the GP

31:05

practice that the cream appeared to

31:07

be working. Whether this was true

31:09

or not, by the end of

31:11

July it was painfully clear that

31:13

Debbie's condition had drastically deteriorated. On

31:16

the 26th of July Elaine hosted

31:18

a family birthday party for her

31:20

son and she told relatives that

31:22

Debbie was in her room and

31:24

didn't want to see anyone. So

31:26

this was a birthday party she

31:28

was holding at the house. Undeterred

31:30

the family decided to check on

31:32

her and as soon as they

31:34

entered her room they were hit

31:36

with an overwhelming stench. Rotting food

31:38

and soiled napies filled the air.

31:40

Debbie lay on filthy, stained bed

31:42

sheets. Her hair now crudely cut

31:45

short as I said and her

31:47

skin covered in scabs and sores.

31:49

She was clearly suffering and incredibly

31:51

visibly distressed at this point. Elaine's

31:53

sister and niece immediately recognised the

31:55

severity of the situation. They knew

31:57

Debbie was going to die if

31:59

nothing was done, so they confronted

32:01

Elaine but once again she brushed

32:03

them off and rejected their concerns.

32:05

Deeply alarmed, of course, at this

32:07

point, Elaine's family considered contacting the

32:09

police but ultimately decided to alert

32:11

social services instead. A safeguarding alert

32:14

was issued but social services didn't

32:16

immediately get involved. Instead a message

32:18

was sent to Debbie's GP who

32:20

visited her later that evening and

32:22

this this was a real fundamental

32:24

failing because Elaine's family so her

32:26

aunt and niece alert social services

32:28

to the situation a safeguarding alert

32:30

is issued but it gets lost

32:32

in translation and ends up with

32:34

a message going to her GP

32:36

saying she has some physical issues

32:38

and needs some help, she's got

32:40

a skin condition, there needs to

32:43

be an urgent visit to the

32:45

home. She's in a bad way

32:47

but there was there was no

32:49

kind of welfare or safeguarding concerns

32:51

really at this point. God that

32:53

is so frustrating that that wasn't

32:55

reported as you know as it

32:57

should have been and also... I

32:59

kind of get where the family

33:01

wouldn't have called the emergency service

33:03

and just called the police but

33:05

you just and you know I

33:07

would never blame them but you

33:09

just kind of wish like I

33:12

wish you just had just gone

33:14

you know what she's gonna die

33:16

you need to come and do

33:18

something I think it's I do

33:20

yeah I really but you wouldn't

33:22

would you know you wouldn't think

33:24

I'll ring nine nine nine about

33:26

this you know social services who

33:28

should already be involved because you

33:30

know that they would be. You'd

33:32

think you're doing as much as

33:34

you possibly could and they did

33:36

really. And you don't know that

33:38

you can have faith and trust

33:41

in the police to maybe remove

33:43

Debbie from that family home so

33:45

for all their knowing they're going

33:47

to call the police. the police

33:49

attend they get fobbed off by

33:51

Elaine and then Elaine works out

33:53

that oh you've called the police

33:55

on me so now I'm not

33:57

going to have anything to do

33:59

with you and then the niece

34:01

and the aunt are not involved

34:03

in Debbie's life anymore and they're

34:05

not able to safeguard her in

34:07

any way so maybe they were

34:10

thinking that I really felt for

34:12

them and of course that they

34:14

were probably kicking themselves with what

34:16

we go on to hear about

34:18

that they didn't call the police

34:20

but I do think with with

34:22

hindsight it's easy to say well

34:24

of course they should have and

34:26

they would be the first to

34:28

say that themselves. Well you know

34:30

it's it's very different to a

34:32

normal scenario isn't it where this

34:34

person has just had this violent

34:36

attack or something you know there's

34:39

nothing like that this is ongoing

34:41

long-term and actually the authorities that

34:43

should be involved so Yeah, I

34:45

do 100% get the family and

34:47

where they went with this. It

34:49

does make sense. So the GP

34:51

just gets told, oh, you just

34:53

need to go around for a

34:55

visit. That's not the GP's job

34:57

whatsoever. No, and it was, I

34:59

mean, obviously it is, but do

35:01

you know what I mean, that's

35:03

not for them to do a

35:05

safeguarding thing. They just think they're

35:07

going around to check on a

35:10

patient who can't get into the

35:12

surgery. And it was deemed urgent,

35:14

so the doctor did go around

35:16

that evening, but Elaine had had

35:18

time to shower Debbie or at

35:20

least attempt to shower her because

35:22

that experience was excruciating for Debbie

35:24

and her screams echo through the

35:26

house as Elaine washed her because

35:28

her skin was in such a

35:30

poor condition that any warm water

35:32

or any water is is going

35:34

to feel like acid rain pouring

35:36

down on your skin so yeah

35:39

it was absolutely agony for her

35:41

but Elaine persisted washed Debbie. dressed

35:43

her in an oversized hoodie, a

35:45

clean one, put the hood right

35:47

up and then brought her downstairs

35:49

out of her filthy squalid bedroom.

35:51

So when the doctor arrived she

35:53

sat there, she's cleaner than she

35:55

would be usually, she's in clean

35:57

clothes and she's not really that

35:59

visible, she's got the hood up.

36:01

can't see that she's lost a

36:03

lot of her hair and Elaine

36:05

did all the talking she took

36:08

control of the conversation when the

36:10

doctor visited and she dismissed her

36:12

family's concerns claiming the doctor was

36:14

misunderstanding the situation. She told him

36:16

that Debbie was incontinent and that

36:18

her relatives had arrived before she

36:20

could change her napi and the

36:22

doctor observed Debbie's skin. he noted

36:24

that it was dry and inflamed

36:26

but he failed to diagnose scabies

36:28

at that time and he didn't

36:30

see any immediate safeguarding concerns but

36:32

scheduled a follow-up appointment for two

36:34

weeks later and I'm not really

36:37

blaming that doctor he probably could

36:39

and should have done a more

36:41

thorough checkup on Debbie and looked

36:43

at a head for example looked

36:45

at more of her more of

36:47

her body to ascertain how serious

36:49

is his skin condition but Elaine

36:51

is there fobbing him off and

36:53

saying it's fine. And it would

36:55

be normal in a scenario like

36:57

this where you have somebody who

36:59

potentially can't communicate their issues with

37:01

the doctor that the mum would

37:03

be the one to talk for

37:06

the person. It would be very

37:08

similar to if I took one

37:10

of my children to the doctors.

37:12

Yeah. They're small, they're young, they...

37:14

wouldn't know how to explain what's

37:16

wrong or what's going on so

37:18

my GP is never going to

37:20

think oh gosh she's trying to

37:22

hide something by speaking for them

37:24

in a similar situation here if

37:26

there's no safeguarding concerns that he

37:28

can see and she's sat there

37:30

not interrupting not saying actually no

37:32

it's not true or anything like

37:35

that well yeah I annoyingly do

37:37

understand that that would have been

37:39

enough it's frustrating isn't it that

37:41

she... where he can see it

37:43

just looks like dry scabby skin.

37:45

Yeah, and I think it is

37:47

this is very much a case

37:49

of Debbie being treated as a

37:51

second-class citizen because of her disability

37:53

because she is an adult and

37:55

it would later come out in

37:57

a review of all of this

37:59

that She should have been able

38:01

to dictate the level of care

38:04

and attention that she received and...

38:06

they should have spoken to her

38:08

and if she was unable to

38:10

articulate what the problem was they

38:12

should have persevered that there are

38:14

different ways that they could have

38:16

conversed with Debbie to really understand

38:18

what was going on here but

38:20

they just becomes invisible she becomes

38:22

invisible they treat her like a

38:24

child and just bypass her and

38:26

go straight to mum I personally

38:28

think you know unless you've got

38:30

Debbie on her own I doubt

38:33

she'd have wanted to to tell

38:35

the truth any way that she

38:37

wasn't being looked after, because she

38:39

was probably in fear of her

38:41

mother, but you don't know that.

38:43

It could be that they could

38:45

have got her on her own

38:47

and she may have told the

38:49

truth of what was happening in

38:51

terms of the neglect. But she

38:53

also may not have even, because

38:55

the fact that she's still calling

38:57

out for him, you or I

38:59

would be thinking that person should

39:02

be looking after me, but they

39:04

clearly aren't, therefore... they're the person

39:06

who I shouldn't be calling out

39:08

for, but she's literally calling out

39:10

for Elaine and is still wanting

39:12

to reach out to her in

39:14

her pain and suffering. So she

39:16

may not have even quite realised

39:18

that actually what's happening to her

39:20

is her mom's fault. Yeah, and

39:22

not normal. She had been neglected

39:24

her entire life because even when

39:26

she was at school in East

39:28

Sussex as a... five, six-year-old, it

39:31

was noticed then that she was

39:33

turning up in dirty clothes and

39:35

had headlice even then. And years

39:37

later, that would be the same

39:39

story at the daycare centre and

39:41

leads when she was in her

39:43

late teens. So she had been

39:45

neglected her entire life, so this

39:47

was normal to her. She didn't

39:49

really know any different, so they

39:51

would have had to really persevere

39:53

and ask the right questions in

39:55

order to understand what was going

39:57

on at home. So

40:00

as I said that doctor arranged

40:02

a two-week follow-up call but when

40:04

he returned on the 12th of

40:06

August in 2019 he was unable

40:08

to gain access to the house.

40:10

Elaine ignored repeated attempts by the

40:12

surgery to contact her and scheduled

40:14

another appointment and that was it

40:16

case closed as far as they

40:18

were concerned. On the 29th of

40:20

July Social Services arrived to check

40:22

on Debbie but Elaine's other daughter

40:25

told them that she was out

40:27

and refused to let them in.

40:29

Elaine had previously been warned not

40:31

to leave Debbie and her daughter's

40:33

care, yet she didn't cooperate. Later

40:35

that day Elaine contacted Social Services

40:37

herself, claiming that Debbie was now

40:39

doing much better. The social workers

40:41

did manage to visit Debbie on

40:43

the first of August, as planned.

40:45

By then, Elaine had cleaned up

40:47

Debbie and tidied her room. Although

40:49

Debbie appeared unwell and extremely thin,

40:51

the social workers were not overly

40:53

concerned. Elaine told them that Debbie

40:55

was receiving treatment for scabees and

40:57

the social workers scheduled a follow-up

40:59

visit for the second of September.

41:01

See, I mean, I'm remembering that

41:04

you said that she was slightly

41:06

overweight when she, when you're kind

41:08

of describing her and now she's

41:10

painfully thin. So, you know, if

41:12

these social workers had been people

41:14

who had seen her, you know,

41:16

the years before or something like

41:18

that, they would have maybe been

41:20

able to visually see this massive

41:22

decline in her. Whereas, again, moving

41:24

around the country all the time,

41:26

they don't know what she used

41:28

to look like. They don't know

41:30

that her hair used to be

41:32

long and glossy. They don't know

41:34

that she used to be actually

41:36

a little bit overweight. So this

41:38

drastic loss of weight is a

41:41

clear indication that something is majorly

41:43

wrong. At this point, and, you

41:45

know, it's no surprise that Debbie

41:47

tragically died, she's got weeks to

41:49

live at this point. At this

41:51

point she has lost half of

41:53

her body weight so she is

41:55

less than five stone and when

41:57

she dies at the end of

41:59

August. Yeah, when she dies at

42:01

the end of August she's three

42:03

stone ten pounds. Three stone. Three

42:05

stone and ten pounds was her

42:07

weight post-mortem and she was as

42:09

I said she was ten stone

42:11

she was slightly over ten stone

42:13

and slightly deemed a slightly overweight

42:15

just two three years before but

42:18

you're absolutely right because the family

42:20

had moved around the country and

42:22

Elaine had not engaged with the

42:24

agencies and the services that she

42:26

should have engaged with and because

42:28

they themselves made multiple failings in

42:30

their care and safeguarding for Debbie.

42:32

It wasn't noticed. You're absolutely right.

42:34

If there was a social worker

42:36

that had been visiting regularly, they

42:38

would have noticed the deterioration in

42:40

Debbie not just physically but also

42:42

mentally because she's gone from this.

42:44

Yeah, she's quite shy with people

42:46

she doesn't know, but she's quite

42:48

bubbly and outgoing and confident and

42:50

a bit cheeky with people she

42:52

gets to know. So they would

42:55

have really noticed this deterioration in

42:57

who she was and her personality

42:59

as well, and that would have

43:01

been hugely alarming, but that there

43:03

was none of that consistent care

43:05

and checkups on her welfare. And

43:07

this whole time, social workers and

43:09

carers continued to visit the house

43:11

for Elaine's son. and they often

43:13

heard Debbie crying upstairs but when

43:15

they expressed any concern Elaine just

43:17

dismissed them claiming that Debbie was

43:19

attention seeking. So again there were

43:21

the right people were in this

43:23

home carers social workers they weren't

43:25

there for Debbie because she was

43:27

lost in the system but they

43:29

were there for Elaine's son and

43:32

they could hear Debbie crying out

43:34

upstairs in pain and they could

43:36

see Elaine dismissing that and they

43:38

didn't do anything about it. And

43:40

again, I can't, like, we can,

43:42

we understand looking back, you know,

43:44

these social workers would have been

43:46

pilot, you know, pile one pile

43:48

of caseloads. They've probably got far

43:50

too much work to do to

43:52

fit into a day. They're working

43:54

longer hours. and they probably should

43:56

have done. I imagine, I imagine

43:58

there's a lot of reasons why

44:00

they may have just gone, you

44:02

know what, I'm not really funny,

44:04

but after this I've still got

44:06

to three different houses and I

44:09

haven't had a tea break for

44:11

seven or eight days, you know,

44:13

like we've not had lunch times,

44:15

like this is, we're here to

44:17

start out here and let's go,

44:19

it's not good enough, though, it's

44:21

still not good enough, any human

44:23

being should be raising those concerns.

44:25

flagging this and checking that actually

44:27

Debbie is being visited by social

44:29

services as well but I can

44:31

understand that in this job role

44:33

they're probably really really stretched and

44:35

understaffed. I just think I don't

44:37

yeah I do get all of

44:39

that and I do agree but

44:41

I just think a good social

44:43

worker would have observed that happening

44:45

and just taken over and gone,

44:48

I'm going to pop upstairs and

44:50

just see her and then have

44:52

entered her bedroom and seen the

44:54

state that she was in and

44:56

the room was in and that

44:58

would have been enough. That would

45:00

have been enough because whenever they

45:02

did turn up to see Debbie

45:04

these were prearranged visits so of

45:06

course Elaine had had opportunity to

45:08

tidy the house as best she

45:10

could and wash. Debbie and to

45:12

make her look presentable and to

45:14

hide her in baggy jumpers so

45:16

she didn't look so severely underweight

45:18

There were different things that she

45:20

could do to pull the wool

45:22

over their eyes So this was

45:25

that would have been essentially an

45:27

unannounced visit because that if yeah

45:29

I do think a good social

45:31

work would have just gone I'm

45:33

just gonna go upstairs and I'm

45:35

gonna see her Yeah, but they

45:37

didn't do that unfortunately In

45:39

the days leading up to her

45:41

death, a neighbour also heard Debbie

45:44

crying and sobbing. She could be

45:46

heard crying, mummy, mummy. When the

45:48

neighbour expressed concern, Elaine told them

45:50

that her daughter has just been

45:52

unwell. And it just, it breaks

45:54

your heart, doesn't it? To hear

45:56

that a neighbour is hearing them.

45:58

through the walls and hearing Debbie

46:01

call out for her mom and

46:03

when you know what what her

46:05

mom was doing to her and

46:07

the neglect that was happening in

46:09

that house and yeah Debbie is

46:11

still idolizing her mother and calling

46:13

out for her darkest hour on

46:15

the 29th of August Elaine made

46:17

a chilling call to emergency services.

46:20

Her voice cold and detached, she

46:22

told the operator that her daughter

46:24

had been unwell for several days,

46:26

that she had refused to eat

46:28

or drink, and that she had

46:30

now passed away. She mentioned that

46:32

Debbie's body was cold. Despite the

46:34

operator's attempts to encourage Elaine to

46:37

go back to Debbie to check

46:39

for signs of life or to

46:41

see if any assistance could be

46:43

offered, Elaine remained unresponsive. Her tone

46:45

made it painfully clear that she

46:47

knew that Debbie was already dead.

46:49

far beyond any help that could

46:51

be given. There was no urgency,

46:53

no emotion in her words, just

46:56

the stark final reality of a

46:58

life lost under her watch. And

47:00

there's a bit of debate here

47:02

around how long Debbie had been

47:04

dead in that house before Elaine

47:06

called emergency services. because they couldn't

47:08

really ascertain a time of death,

47:10

but it was any time between

47:13

8 and 36 hours before Elaine

47:15

made that call to the emergency

47:17

services. So it could be that

47:19

Debbie had been up in her

47:21

room dead for a day and

47:23

a half. Elaine may have known

47:25

that and been waiting to call

47:27

the emergency services. She may not

47:29

have known that and just not

47:32

have even gone into Debbie's room

47:34

for like a day, a day

47:36

and a day and a half.

47:38

Oh my goodness. Yeah, either way,

47:40

I mean she she would have

47:42

known what she was doing to

47:44

this girl like Just mad isn't

47:46

it? This is This is someone

47:49

living in your home Yeah. You're

47:51

having to hide how badly poorly

47:53

they are. You know where they

47:55

are and what stage they're at.

47:57

So yeah, when she's ringing and

47:59

and also yeah that that you

48:01

imagine like the the 999 operators

48:03

must be very in tune with

48:05

how people are sounding and how

48:08

they react to things and they

48:10

would hear people who are you

48:12

know they can't quite believe that

48:14

this person potentially is dead and

48:16

they're I need to do anything

48:18

I'm trying and I'm trying and

48:20

trying and they've got someone like

48:22

this. He's just like, no, this

48:25

is it. She's died. And the

48:27

responder is saying you need to

48:29

go to her and I need

48:31

you to conduct a number of

48:33

checks on her because you can't

48:35

really ascertain whether she's dead or

48:37

not. I'm going to tell you

48:39

what you need to do. Go

48:41

to her. And Elaine kept saying

48:44

no. No, she's dead. She's dead.

48:46

So she knew damn well that

48:48

she was dead. And I think

48:50

she was dead. And I think

48:52

she was dead. And I think

48:54

she was dead. And I think

48:56

she was dead. you know a

48:58

day or more a day and

49:01

a half perhaps and it's weird

49:03

because Elaine had no previous convictions

49:05

we don't know an awful lot

49:07

about her we know that she

49:09

did have a difficult childhood obviously

49:11

social services were involved from time

49:13

to time throughout the children's upbringing

49:15

and they were on the child

49:17

protection register at one point but

49:20

I just can't really understand what

49:22

prompted this sudden downturn in her

49:24

care for her daughter because up

49:26

until they moved to Blackpool things

49:28

were okay. They weren't perfect. Elaine

49:30

had a handsful and I doubt

49:32

she was doing her best but

49:34

Debbie was okay and living to

49:37

all intents and purposes of fulfilling

49:39

life. She wasn't really that badly

49:41

neglected. and then they moved to

49:43

Blackpool in 2016 and it's just

49:45

this rapid descent into depravity for

49:47

that entire household and I don't

49:49

know what prompted it whether Elaine

49:51

was using drugs I know that

49:53

she was in a relationship with

49:56

someone at this point they had

49:58

then subsequently moved in for a

50:00

period of time. whether that was

50:02

controlling, I don't know, maybe that

50:04

was having an impact on her

50:06

behaviour towards her daughter, but something

50:08

triggered this sudden contempt for her

50:11

own daughter and it happened

50:13

in around 2016-17. The scene that

50:15

greeted the ambulance crews and police

50:17

officers who responded to the

50:19

call was nothing short of

50:21

horrifying. The stench from Debbie's

50:24

room was overpowering, a foul

50:26

odor that filled the air. The

50:28

room was in a state of

50:30

utter filth, with feces scattered across

50:32

the floor and the bed. Debbie's

50:35

lifeless body lay on the floor

50:37

in a twisted, unnatural position,

50:39

her limbs stiff with rigor

50:41

mortis. Her clothes were soaked with

50:44

dirt and waste. Near her body,

50:46

live maggots crawled across the

50:48

floor, feeding on the decay. The

50:51

stark contrast between the vibrant, smiling

50:53

young woman in the photographs from

50:56

her time in Leeds and the

50:58

horrific state of her body at

51:00

the time of her death could

51:02

not have been more jarring. At her

51:04

post-mortem, Debbie weighed, as I said earlier,

51:06

just three stone ten pounds, less than

51:08

half the weight that she had been

51:10

three years earlier, when she had weighed

51:13

over ten stone. Her face was completely

51:15

covered in thick scaps and hardened

51:17

skin. to the point that she

51:19

was no longer recognisable as a

51:21

young woman. Her hair was falling out

51:24

and signs of severe skin loss and

51:26

ulceration were evident. The scabes' mites

51:28

had been allowed to breed and

51:30

spread unchecked. This was clearly an

51:32

infection that had festered for

51:34

an extended period of time.

51:36

The pathologies concluded that the

51:39

cause of death was severe,

51:41

emaciation and neglect, compounded by

51:43

an extensive and severe scabes'

51:45

infection. Six

51:47

people were arrested in connection with

51:50

Debbie's death. Her mother Elaine Clark

51:52

was charged with gross negligent

51:54

manslaughter while her former partner Robert

51:56

Bruce was charged with allowing

51:59

or causing the death of

52:01

a vulnerable adult. The charge

52:03

against him was subsequently dropped,

52:05

however. One question by the

52:07

police, Elaine attempted to downplay

52:09

her role in the situation.

52:11

However, after further scrutiny, she

52:13

eventually admitted that the initial

52:15

accounts that she had given

52:17

were false. And after initially

52:20

pleading not guilty to the

52:22

charge of manslaughter, she eventually

52:24

changed her plea to guilty.

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53:52

John Harrison, then Q.C. prosecuting, described

53:55

the terrible conditions that Debbie's decomposing

53:57

body was in. when emergency services

53:59

found her on August 29th, 2019.

54:01

He said Debbie was extremely emaciated

54:04

with a severe rash to the

54:06

scalp, the face and the soles

54:08

of the feet. The jumper and

54:11

trousers worn by the deceased were

54:13

filthy and mites were found crawling

54:15

on them. A urine-soiled nappy was

54:18

found inside her trousers. A live

54:20

maggot was found next to her

54:22

body. As her clothing was cut

54:24

away from her body, bits of

54:27

skin came away with it as

54:29

it had adhered to her body.

54:31

This is just horrible, isn't it?

54:34

Like you said, this is one

54:36

of the worst. I don't know,

54:38

like there's evil people who do

54:41

sadistic things and that is, you

54:43

know, that is just as horrible

54:45

to read into here. And I

54:47

mean, I'm glad that Elaine has

54:50

pled guilty. She's obviously acknowledged that

54:52

she did do this, but... this

54:54

is just willful and like extended

54:57

agony it's yeah sorry this is

54:59

just oh this is sadistic it

55:01

is sadistic and we've covered it

55:04

really is we've got lots of

55:06

child neglect or just general neglect

55:08

as is the case here but

55:10

Debbie is still Elaine's child will

55:13

be an adult child with additional

55:15

needs yeah but we've covered lots

55:17

of neglect cases. Hakeem Hussain is

55:20

one that springs to mind too,

55:22

whose mother was a crack addict

55:24

and used his inhaler to smoke

55:27

crack so that when he woke

55:29

up in the night and had

55:31

an asthma attack, he died because

55:34

the inhaler had been fashioned into

55:36

a bloody crack pipe. So we've

55:38

covered some awful stuff, but this,

55:40

yeah, I really do feel this

55:43

is the worst case of neglect

55:45

that we have ever encountered. It

55:47

really is appalling. But

55:50

when you talked about Kaley earlier,

55:52

there were some, not really mitigating

55:54

factors, but some things that you

55:56

could... start to understand how this

55:58

could, I mean, I get it

56:01

obviously from a legal standpoint that

56:03

her family did or did not

56:05

get, whereas with something like this,

56:07

oh yeah, like there's just nothing,

56:09

there is no way for me

56:11

to even start to understand how

56:13

this could, I mean, I get

56:16

it obviously from a legal standpoint,

56:18

it is gross negligence manslaughter. but

56:20

how this isn't murder in like

56:22

my brain just boggles me. I

56:24

think that the only reason it

56:26

couldn't be she couldn't be charged

56:28

with murder is because they couldn't

56:31

prove that intent was there which

56:33

no it's difficult because I think

56:35

she's willfully starved her daughter in

56:37

the last weeks of her life

56:39

because she has literally wasted away

56:41

and she's not taken any measures

56:43

to provide any basic care needs.

56:46

and it's clear that her daughter's

56:48

dying and she must know that

56:50

on some level she's been told

56:52

that by her own sister and

56:54

niece and she's still doing nothing

56:56

and despite these failings with various

56:58

agencies social services etc it's not

57:01

it's not just that they were

57:03

at fault it was also the

57:05

fact that Elaine deliberately hoodwinked them

57:07

deceived them and disengaged with them

57:09

at every opportunity yeah yeah and

57:11

avoiding them 100% she knew what

57:13

she was doing. She knew what

57:16

she was doing and I also

57:18

wonder if she it got to

57:20

the point where it was so

57:22

bad she just thought I'm gonna

57:24

have to just let her die

57:26

now I'm gonna let her die

57:28

that's what I'm gonna do because

57:31

in the last four weeks in

57:33

particular of Debbie's life she really

57:35

received basically no care from Elaine

57:37

at all so she wasn't fed

57:39

she wasn't Any basic care needs

57:41

weren't fulfilled. So her napies weren't

57:43

changed and her clothes were soiled

57:46

and her bedsheets were soiled. It

57:48

was worse than it had ever

57:50

been. It just really deteriorated and

57:52

it really accelerated in those laughs.

57:54

few weeks. The prosecutor added mites

57:56

were found crawling all over Debbie's

57:58

back. The trousers were covered in

58:01

liquid feces. Debbie's hair was falling

58:03

out due to the scabes rash.

58:05

Her face was covered with the

58:07

rash. Debbie's ribs were visible through

58:09

the skin. All of her limbs

58:11

were wasted and the rash was

58:13

widespread on them. Her buttocks were

58:15

completely covered in feces which extended

58:18

down to the thighs. as the

58:20

body was examined large areas of

58:22

the skin fell away from the

58:24

body and more than 30% of

58:26

her skin was covered in the

58:28

rash which was more severe in

58:30

some parts of the body than

58:33

others so even when they are

58:35

performing an autopsy on Debbie It's

58:37

I mean I've really just done

58:39

to beat this graphic, but it's

58:41

just it's it's all I will

58:43

say is it's just even just

58:45

to perform an autopsy is proving

58:48

to be incredibly difficult because there

58:50

are mites crawling all over her

58:52

back and she is covered in

58:54

her own excrement and and her

58:56

skin is falling off. Elaine Clark

58:58

was sentenced for the manslaughter of

59:00

her daughter Debbie Leach in February

59:03

2022 at the age of 49

59:05

ground court. and she showed no

59:07

emotion as she was taken down.

59:09

In her sentencing remarks Mrs. Yip

59:11

D.B. said, The fact is that

59:13

you are responsible for Debbie's death.

59:15

You were her mother. She lived

59:18

with you and you were also

59:20

paid to care for her. The

59:22

failures in your care of Debbie

59:24

were so grossly negligent as to

59:26

be criminal. You have at times

59:28

continued to minimise your responsibility. You

59:30

told the author of the pre-sentence

59:33

report that you did your best.

59:35

You may be in denial to

59:37

yourself as much as to others,

59:39

but you cannot pretend that is

59:41

true. The condition in which Debbie

59:43

was found shows that not only

59:45

did you not do your best,

59:48

but that you must have done

59:50

absolutely nothing to care for her

59:52

in the last days of her

59:54

life. Instead, you simply abandoned her

59:56

to die alone in pain without

59:58

nourishment in the most awful physical...

1:00:00

surroundings. Understandably family members are haunted

1:00:03

by their memories of things they

1:00:05

saw and what they now know.

1:00:07

The impact on the members of

1:00:09

the emergency services who attended should

1:00:11

also not be overlooked. And Mrs.

1:00:13

Justice Yipp D.B. went on to

1:00:15

say, the difficulty is that whereas

1:00:18

you presented Debbie to the professionals

1:00:20

in a way that made it

1:00:22

appear she was being cared for,

1:00:24

once they were gone, that care

1:00:26

was plainly not maintained. During that

1:00:28

last month, there is ample evidence

1:00:30

from the statements of the carers

1:00:33

and the neighbour, together with her

1:00:35

condition at death, that Debbie experienced

1:00:37

real suffering. Nothing was done to

1:00:39

halt her decline. Debbie starved. Her

1:00:41

scabies was allowed to run out

1:00:43

of control. She became more and

1:00:45

more weakened until she died. In

1:00:48

her last days, she was denied

1:00:50

even the most basic care and

1:00:52

dignity. Anyone entering her room and

1:00:54

seeing her towards the end of

1:00:56

her life could have been left

1:00:58

that her life was in real

1:01:00

danger. One way or another, you

1:01:03

ignored that risk and left Debbie

1:01:05

to die in her squalid room.

1:01:07

It just sums it up. So

1:01:09

perfectly. And so brutally. Yeah. I

1:01:11

hope that Elaine was there to

1:01:13

hear the sentencing remarks and that

1:01:15

she actually heard that absolutely scathing

1:01:18

assault on her and her actions

1:01:20

and her behaviour. I hope so,

1:01:22

I'm not sure, I'm presuming that

1:01:24

she was, I know that subsequently

1:01:26

she refused to attend or provide

1:01:28

any information to the inquest into

1:01:30

Debbie's death, so she wasn't exactly

1:01:33

compliant with these processes, but I

1:01:35

would hope that she did attend

1:01:37

the sentencing, because I think back

1:01:39

then that was the norm. It

1:01:41

was only when we had some

1:01:43

high profile, non-attendees, that it almost

1:01:45

becomes contagious, doesn't it? and criminals

1:01:48

then start to not show up

1:01:50

for it because they can't be

1:01:52

forced at the moment. Elaine Clark

1:01:54

was ultimately sentenced to nine years

1:01:56

and seven. in prison. Mrs Justice

1:01:58

Yipp informed her that she would

1:02:00

be required to serve at least

1:02:03

two-thirds of a sentence before being

1:02:05

considered for parole. And speaking to

1:02:07

BBC Northwest tonight after the sentencing,

1:02:09

Elaine's sister Susan Mugridge said, had

1:02:11

she been a proper mother she

1:02:13

would have sought help, she should

1:02:15

have got life, a life for

1:02:18

a life, we'll never talk to

1:02:20

her again. Responding to the sentence,

1:02:22

a spokesman for the Down Syndrome

1:02:24

Association said, We are deeply saddened

1:02:26

by the needless and painless death

1:02:28

of Debbie Leach and our thoughts

1:02:30

are with her friends and family.

1:02:33

To read the details of this

1:02:35

vulnerable young lady's final days due

1:02:37

to her mother's neglect is absolutely

1:02:39

harrowing. Although we are pleased that

1:02:41

justice will now be served as

1:02:43

Elaine Clark goes to prison we

1:02:45

feel that the sentence she was

1:02:47

given does not reflect the horror

1:02:50

of her crime and I completely

1:02:52

agree with that. A subsequent review

1:02:54

commissioned by the Blackpool Adult Safeguarding

1:02:56

Board uncovered a troubling series of

1:02:58

failures. The report concluded that agencies

1:03:00

failed to protect Debbie as they

1:03:02

were not always aware of the

1:03:05

extent of the neglect that she

1:03:07

endured. Elaine had effectively concealed the

1:03:09

abuse she inflicted on Debbie by

1:03:11

frequently moving the family to different

1:03:13

homes. And this caused vital information

1:03:15

to be lost or miscommunicated between

1:03:17

agencies, further compounding the neglect. And

1:03:20

that's not... That's not solely on

1:03:22

Elaine for moving around the country.

1:03:24

These agencies should have a much

1:03:26

better system for sharing information when

1:03:28

a vulnerable client moves to a

1:03:30

different area, moves outside of area.

1:03:32

So it's on them too. Yeah,

1:03:35

it really should be. The review

1:03:37

also found that Elaine spoke for

1:03:39

her daughter when she shouldn't have

1:03:41

been allowed to as Debbie was

1:03:43

an adult. It said, instead of

1:03:45

finding a way to communicate directly

1:03:47

with Debbie, professionals relied on Clark

1:03:50

to speak on her behalf. Yeah,

1:03:52

and like we were talking about

1:03:54

earlier... it's so frustrating because on

1:03:56

its own that one interaction with

1:03:58

the doctor you can understand that

1:04:00

the GP wouldn't necessarily see that

1:04:02

as something to cause loads of

1:04:05

alarm in that one scenario but

1:04:07

when it's linked with all of

1:04:09

this of course and actually if

1:04:11

she's never allowed to speak for

1:04:13

herself in any of the conversations

1:04:15

in the scenarios that's you know

1:04:17

it's not just that one-off but

1:04:20

you could kind of understand in

1:04:22

a one-off situation but actually yeah

1:04:24

long term she absolutely should have

1:04:26

been the person talking about how

1:04:28

she was what was going on

1:04:30

and her care I think assumptions

1:04:32

were made because she was quiet

1:04:35

and withdrawn, which was as a

1:04:37

result of the neglect and abuse

1:04:39

that she was suffering, that she

1:04:41

wasn't capable of having a conversation,

1:04:43

but judgments were made purely because

1:04:45

she had down syndrome. But actually,

1:04:47

I said it earlier, people with

1:04:50

down syndrome can lead really fulfilling,

1:04:52

active, engaging lives. Debbie had a

1:04:54

boyfriend, she had friends, she... I

1:04:56

was going to say, she literally

1:04:58

had a friend and a boyfriend.

1:05:00

Yeah, and people down syndrome can

1:05:02

have jobs and, yeah, engage with

1:05:05

society. So I think those naive

1:05:07

assumptions were made that, oh, she

1:05:09

has down syndrome, so that means

1:05:11

that she's basically a child, so

1:05:13

one need to speak to mum

1:05:15

here. Yeah, and that is not

1:05:17

at all correct or right or...

1:05:20

No. Yeah, really upset him. Additionally,

1:05:22

the review revealed that when the

1:05:24

family relocated from leads to Blackpool

1:05:26

in 2016, crucial information regarding Debbie's

1:05:28

care needs was omitted. As a

1:05:30

result, agencies were left unaware of

1:05:32

the extent of her condition, including

1:05:35

the severity of her skin infection

1:05:37

and therefore unable to provide the

1:05:39

necessary support. When the family moved,

1:05:41

Debbie's social worker offered to make

1:05:43

a referral to Blackpool on their

1:05:45

behalf, but Elaine declined that offer.

1:05:47

But again, for me, I don't

1:05:50

understand. Shouldn't have really been a

1:05:52

choice. It should be... your under

1:05:54

social services because we have concerns

1:05:56

about the care you're providing for

1:05:58

your daughter you're moving out of

1:06:00

area so our normal procedure is

1:06:02

that we don't give you a

1:06:05

choice we don't say you can

1:06:07

contact them we just hand over

1:06:09

your file and they will be

1:06:11

in touch soon but that didn't

1:06:13

happen especially with a scenario like

1:06:15

this she has down syndrome this

1:06:17

is not a short-term vulnerability this

1:06:20

isn't a vulnerability that has presented

1:06:22

itself and could change in any

1:06:24

way shape or form. This is

1:06:26

someone with complex needs and complex

1:06:28

care issues who actually is living

1:06:30

a really decent life but anybody

1:06:32

who, I mean they're all working

1:06:35

in an industry in an area

1:06:37

of society where they can see

1:06:39

how things can go so wrong.

1:06:41

So actually you're having a great,

1:06:43

you are doing a really good

1:06:45

job here, you're really sociable, you're

1:06:47

you've made all these friendships let's

1:06:50

keep that keep that going why

1:06:52

not why would that not be

1:06:54

the norm to just like you

1:06:56

said to just transfer over some

1:06:58

things you know like when you

1:07:00

change dentists you might not go

1:07:02

and sign up to a new

1:07:04

dentist and that doesn't really flag

1:07:07

anything but it's very very different

1:07:09

in this scenario I agree with

1:07:11

you I think that shouldn't even

1:07:13

be a question Also, why is

1:07:15

it a question for a lane?

1:07:17

That kind of annoys me. Why,

1:07:19

again, a bit like the whole

1:07:22

talking for her, why is it

1:07:24

a question for a lane? Do

1:07:26

you want us to do this

1:07:28

referral? Why isn't it? Right, Debbie,

1:07:30

we are going to continue your

1:07:32

care under our authorities. Yeah. It

1:07:34

just, again, I don't understand the

1:07:37

process, but it just makes no

1:07:39

sense. test so I just can't

1:07:41

get my head around why things

1:07:43

were done as they were or

1:07:45

why things are done as they

1:07:47

are and we just constantly have

1:07:49

these investigations and reviews and reports

1:07:52

and learnings will come off the

1:07:54

back of it bloody blah and

1:07:56

it doesn't really happen yeah it

1:07:58

doesn't it because these things just

1:08:00

continually happen. When arriving in Blackpool

1:08:02

safeguarding agencies were not even told

1:08:04

that Debbie had a learning disability,

1:08:07

meaning she was not put on

1:08:09

the new practices learning disability register.

1:08:11

If she had been registered she

1:08:13

would have been offered annual health

1:08:15

checks and the review outlined this

1:08:17

by saying had this happened her

1:08:19

subsequent weight loss may have been

1:08:22

recognised and addressed. This admission demonstrates

1:08:24

the importance of transferring information across

1:08:26

border. No shit. The review concluded

1:08:28

that a family member report about

1:08:30

the neglect in 2019 was also

1:08:32

lost in the system. So I

1:08:34

think that was an initial report

1:08:37

made by the niece of Elaine,

1:08:39

so that's Debbie's cousin. The review

1:08:41

heard about Sammy Muggridge's visit to

1:08:43

Elaine's house a month before Debbie's

1:08:45

death, so that's Debbie's cousin, where

1:08:47

she found her lying on a

1:08:49

filthy mattress in a dark, foul-smelling

1:08:52

room covered in takeaway boxes and

1:08:54

dirty napies. She said, I'll never

1:08:56

forget the last day I saw

1:08:58

Debbie alive. I knew she was

1:09:00

ill and not well, but the

1:09:02

sight of her in the room

1:09:04

will live with me forever. The

1:09:07

stench was unbelievable. I can only

1:09:09

describe it as the stench of

1:09:11

death. Debbie was so skinny, her

1:09:13

hair had been hacked off, her

1:09:15

skin looked like raw flesh. It

1:09:17

was like something out of a

1:09:19

horror movie. And that's no exaggeration,

1:09:22

it really would have looked like

1:09:24

something out of a Hollywood horror

1:09:26

film. The report outlined that

1:09:28

these miscommunication and presumptions left Debbie without

1:09:31

professional safeguarding support for a further six-day

1:09:33

period before a social worker visited, by

1:09:35

which time Clark had tidied the house

1:09:38

to an acceptable state and consequently following

1:09:40

the social worker visiting and not having

1:09:42

any concerns Debbie was left again in

1:09:45

the care of Clark and supported invisible

1:09:47

and isolated. Karen Smith, Director of Adult

1:09:49

Services, said Throughout this review our thoughts

1:09:52

and condolences have been with Debbie's

1:09:54

extended family. We know Debbie's His mother

1:09:56

manipulated circumstances so her neglect was not

1:09:58

apparent to ourselves and other agencies visiting

1:10:01

their home. However, it is clear from

1:10:03

the review that there were missed opportunities

1:10:05

and Debbie's voice was seldom heard. Debbie's

1:10:08

tragic death has taught us a lot

1:10:10

and changes have already been implemented. Our

1:10:12

processes have been improved along with the

1:10:15

way we share information with other councils

1:10:17

and local agencies. This learning will be

1:10:19

shared with all practitioners to improve the

1:10:22

care we provide to vulnerable residents. If

1:10:24

only it were that simple. Just like

1:10:26

you said though, it's more, yeah, it's

1:10:29

just more lip service. It's not, I

1:10:31

just, it's so frustrating. Alan Wilson, senior

1:10:33

coroner for Blackpool and Flight, presided over

1:10:36

Debbie's inquest in October 2024. In his

1:10:38

ruling he stated, Debbie had care and

1:10:40

support needs and a range of carers

1:10:43

and social care professionals would attend the

1:10:45

home regularly to provide that care.

1:10:47

Unbeknown to them, the standard of care

1:10:49

shown by Debbie's mother was at times

1:10:52

inappropriate and she would take steps to

1:10:54

actively try to mask how she was

1:10:56

treating Debbie. The coroner concluded that Debbie

1:10:59

was significantly neglected in the last weeks

1:11:01

of her life, remaining largely in her

1:11:03

room. Yeah, I mean, this is a

1:11:06

case that I've wanted to cover for

1:11:08

some time, but I wanted to wait

1:11:10

until the inquest and that happened in

1:11:13

October last year, so that's where we

1:11:15

are now. Elaine is in prison, Elaine

1:11:17

is in prison, but it's... hardly a

1:11:20

life sentence or anything close to that.

1:11:22

She could be out of prison in

1:11:24

a few years time, which is incredibly

1:11:27

worrying. So it's a really, really

1:11:29

disturbing case. And I know we say

1:11:31

it all the time, but it makes

1:11:33

you think when you hear that scream

1:11:36

coming through the wall from next door

1:11:38

or... Any suspicions that you have, I

1:11:40

think it's, you've got to trust your

1:11:43

instincts, haven't you? And you've got to

1:11:45

take action if you have any concerns

1:11:47

and contact the relevant authorities and put

1:11:50

your hope and trust in them that

1:11:52

they will do what they should do.

1:11:54

But I know it's not always as

1:11:57

easiest. that. And actually you may think

1:11:59

like, oh, well, what if they find

1:12:01

out that I've raised that concern? Actually,

1:12:04

if they're a decent parent, they're just

1:12:06

going to speak to the relevant authorities,

1:12:08

explain the scenario, you know, or they

1:12:11

don't like having a bath or whatever,

1:12:13

you know, I'm trying to think of

1:12:15

things that my kids would potentially be

1:12:18

screeching about, and that actually if someone

1:12:20

did knock on the door, I

1:12:22

could quite openly say. I'm like, yeah,

1:12:24

Bella hates having her hair brushed when

1:12:27

she's got syrup in it from her

1:12:29

pancakes that morning because it's horrible instead.

1:12:31

You know, you could have that conversation

1:12:34

and then I'd be like, you know

1:12:36

what? Somebody cared enough for my child

1:12:38

to raise that and as what I

1:12:41

think of, you know, and I don't

1:12:43

mean this flippantly, but I feel like

1:12:45

I'm a pretty decent parent. I think

1:12:48

anybody listening to this would be similar

1:12:50

and or would be the same as

1:12:52

me and they would think... Yes, that's

1:12:55

potentially, you might for a second be

1:12:57

like, oh, that's intrusive or, but actually

1:12:59

when you look at it, that person's

1:13:02

got the best interest of that child

1:13:04

and that's why they've made that choice

1:13:06

to say something. Same with if it

1:13:09

was a vulnerable adult, any scenario, they're

1:13:11

worried for whatever reason. It's obviously never

1:13:13

that easy. You try and raise

1:13:15

somebody who's being abused by their partner

1:13:18

and they are potentially going to... You

1:13:20

may worry that you're going to cause

1:13:23

more damage for them and it's going

1:13:25

to make things worse. There's always things

1:13:27

that you're going to worry about, especially

1:13:29

when someone's vulnerable in whatever way. But

1:13:31

I think you're right. I think that's

1:13:33

what you just have to take from

1:13:36

this is don't take no for an

1:13:38

answer. Do what you can to just

1:13:40

keep pushing if you are really worried

1:13:42

about somebody. Yeah. And in a situation

1:13:44

like this, or if it's a young

1:13:46

child that's involved, social services aren't going

1:13:48

to rock up at the house and

1:13:51

say, we've had reports of screaming emanating

1:13:53

from your home, they're just going to

1:13:55

say we've had reports for concern for

1:13:57

the welfare of your child. And that

1:13:59

could have come from anywhere. So yeah,

1:14:01

it's no... No one should ever be

1:14:03

afraid to report that if they need

1:14:06

to, but yeah, you're right in some

1:14:08

other situations. It could actually cause other

1:14:10

issues. Yeah, it's a whole minefield. It's

1:14:12

been really difficult to end on any

1:14:14

positive note, but I wanted to just

1:14:16

say that in honour of Debbie Leach's

1:14:18

memory, we have made a donation to

1:14:21

the Down Syndrome Association. and that's a

1:14:23

charity that supports people who have Down

1:14:25

Syndrome and their parents and carers throughout

1:14:27

their lives and they do so much

1:14:29

amazing stuff. So if you would like

1:14:31

to donate to, we've popped a link

1:14:33

to do that in our show notes

1:14:36

so please do have a look at

1:14:38

that if you're able to. Thank you

1:14:40

for joining us everybody. I imagine Mark

1:14:42

this has been a really really difficult

1:14:44

case for you to immerse yourself in

1:14:46

but thank you for sharing Debbie's story

1:14:49

because this has been really hard just

1:14:51

to listen to and... I could kick

1:14:53

myself now for at the beginning, assuming

1:14:55

that somebody else was responsible and actually

1:14:57

saying something nice about Elaine and now

1:14:59

I just think I wish that she

1:15:01

would rot in prison for the rest

1:15:04

of her life and that actually, yeah,

1:15:06

this is horrible, but thank you for

1:15:08

sharing this story with us. Thank you

1:15:10

for listening and we will be back

1:15:12

next week with another episode so we

1:15:14

will see them. See you then guys.

1:15:16

Bye.