0:00

Yeah, sure Yeah, sure thing. Hey, you

0:02

sold that car yet? Yeah, sold it

0:05

to Carvana. Oh, I thought you were selling

0:07

to that guy. The guy who wanted to

0:09

pay me in foreign currency, no

0:11

interest over 36 months? Yeah, no.

0:13

Carvana gave me an offer in

0:15

minutes, picked it up, and paid

0:17

me on the spot. It was

0:20

so convenient. Just like that. Yeah?

0:22

No hassle. None. That is super

0:24

convenient. Sell your car to

0:26

Carvana and swap hassle for

0:28

convenience. Pick up these may apply.

0:31

Wow, what's up? I just bought and

0:34

financed a car through Karvana in minutes.

0:36

You? The person who agonized four weeks

0:38

over whether to paint your well's eggshell

0:40

or off-white bought and financed a car

0:43

in minutes? They made it easy. Transparent

0:45

terms, customizable down and monthly. Didn't even

0:47

have to do any paperwork. Wow. Mm-hmm.

0:49

Hey, have you checked up that spreadsheet?

0:51

I sent you guys sent you

0:54

for dinner options. Finance your car

0:56

with Garvana and experience total control.

0:58

Financing subject to credit approval.

1:00

This episode This episode

1:02

is brought to you by

1:05

Netflix. 132 rooms. 157 suspects.

1:07

One dead body. One wildly

1:09

eccentric detective. One disastrous state

1:11

dinner. The residence is a

1:13

screwball who done it series

1:15

set among the eclectic staff

1:17

of the world's most famous

1:19

mansion. The White House. From

1:22

Shondeland. With an all-star cast,

1:24

including Uso Aduba. As Rai

1:26

Detective Cordelia Cordelia Cup. Watch

1:28

the residence. Only on Netflix.

1:30

and welcome back to Seeing Red,

1:32

a true crime podcast. I'm Bethan.

1:35

And I'm Mark. I didn't know

1:37

we were doing a formal introduction.

1:39

I wasn't sure. I was not

1:41

sure. But this is... I don't

1:43

even be a welcome back. Welcome

1:45

back. Yeah it is. It's welcome

1:48

back. And this is part two

1:50

of our episodes regarding the disappearance

1:52

of the Lion Sisters. If you

1:54

haven't listened to Part One, it

1:56

would be better to start there,

1:58

because you'll get the... and 12-year-old

2:00

Sheila who was sisters who had

2:02

headed out shopping to a shopping

2:04

mall in the Easter break from

2:06

school. The sisters had been spotted

2:08

chatting to a man with a

2:10

tape recorder and a microphone and

2:13

had been lead at by a

2:15

scruffy-looking hippie drifter type and then

2:17

they'd eaten pizzas and headed off

2:19

home but they didn't make it

2:21

back and for years the police

2:23

kept the case open but sadly

2:25

even though they followed up on

2:27

the lead no resolution was forthcoming.

2:29

By 2013, many of the original

2:32

investigators on the Lyon case had

2:34

retired or passed away, and although

2:36

the case continued to receive periodic

2:38

reviews, sadly very little progress had

2:41

been made. Generations of detectives had

2:43

come and gone, and many had

2:45

taken a crack at the case.

2:47

Periodically a new team would start

2:49

over and they'd combed through the

2:52

many boxes of yellowing evidence, hoping

2:54

to find just something that would

2:56

give them something new. And in

2:58

2013 that decision was made to

3:00

once again review the archive case

3:03

records. This time they decided right

3:05

this is the view to approaching

3:07

the investigation completely afresh as if

3:09

the call had just come in

3:12

for the two missing girls and

3:14

the police investigators basically would act

3:16

as if you're on a live

3:18

investigation. They then would scour the

3:20

boxes and boxes of case records

3:23

as if the tips and the

3:25

calls were coming in at that

3:27

moment. So Sergeant Chris Homrock was

3:29

tasked with reviewing every record that

3:31

was preserved from the original investigation

3:34

and he looked back at that

3:36

scruffy drifter guy who you might

3:38

recall was called Lloyd Lee Welch

3:40

that original statement he'd given to

3:43

the police and actually Sergeant Homrock

3:45

noticed a mug shot taken of

3:47

Welch in 1977 pertaining to a

3:49

burglary very closely matched the 1975

3:51

composite drawing of that leering young

3:54

young man who had Witnesses said

3:56

been staring at the lion girls

3:58

and author. so quite a lot

4:00

of other friends and other girls

4:03

in the shopping centre. Sergeant

4:05

Homrock learned that Welch was

4:07

very easily found at that

4:09

point because he was incarcerated.

4:11

He was serving a 33-year

4:13

sentence in a Delaware prison

4:15

for molesting a 10-year-old girl

4:17

in 1998. And at the time of

4:20

the Lion Sisters disappearing, he'd

4:22

been at the start of his criminal

4:24

career and like I said in part

4:26

one, there were some petty crimes on

4:29

his record. But between 1973

4:31

and 1997 Welch had

4:33

accrued a serious criminal

4:36

history for offences that

4:38

included rape, domestic violence

4:40

and assault with a knife. All

4:42

of a sudden it just kind

4:44

of feels like I imagine

4:46

for Sergeant Homrock it must have

4:49

just felt like this could

4:51

be such a big break in

4:53

this case. And of course you've got

4:55

a witness there, you then think he's

4:58

unreliable and a bit of an idiot.

5:00

So why would you have taken a

5:02

photograph of him? Why would you really

5:04

pay a huge amount of attention to

5:07

that? And I can understand why the

5:09

police at the time thought he

5:11

was just trying to get

5:13

the reward money, but actually

5:15

he was trying to investigate

5:17

himself into the investigation somehow.

5:19

And it's messy, isn't it? When it

5:21

is a genuinely a live investigation, so

5:23

not their reconstruction of that in 2013.

5:25

When it is a live investigation at

5:27

the time, you have got stuff coming

5:29

in all the time. New stuff and

5:31

you are having to sift through and

5:33

prioritize, whereas this, it's all there. Nothing

5:35

is going to change right now, so

5:37

we can just methodically go through it.

5:40

There's a lot less pressure, isn't there?

5:42

On the 16th of October in 2013,

5:44

Sergeant Homrock travelled and visited Welch

5:46

for the first time and ultimately

5:48

the pair did speak together in

5:50

a string of eight interviews and

5:53

the interviews with the police ended

5:55

up being 12 interviews in total

5:57

with Welch. So when he arrived that

5:59

first time, John Rock said that Welch

6:01

told him, I know why you're here,

6:03

you're here about those two missing kids.

6:05

And then Detective David Davis placed a

6:08

photograph of the Lion Sisters in front

6:10

of Welch and said, these two little

6:12

girls here have never been found and

6:14

their parents are down near 80 years

6:16

old and have no idea what happened

6:18

to their daughters. That's why we're here

6:21

to talk to you. Welch then went

6:23

on to tell a series of... contradictory

6:25

tales. He would spend one story after

6:27

the next to explain what he thought

6:29

had happened to the lion's sisters. He'd

6:31

always placed the blame for the crime

6:34

on others, but he was always giving

6:36

his opinions on what he thought happened.

6:38

But investigators very quickly began to view

6:40

Welch as a participant in the crime.

6:42

He wasn't a witness. In the initial

6:44

interview he admitted he'd been watching the

6:47

sisters near the shopping centre on the

6:49

date of their disappearance, but he claimed

6:51

to have seen a guy putting two

6:53

girls in the back of the back

6:55

of the car, it didn't look right,

6:58

one of them was crying. And then

7:00

he was shown a photograph of that

7:02

known child sex trafficker named Raymond Meleski,

7:04

so the guy that we mentioned earlier

7:06

in part one who investigators had previously

7:08

considered a strong suspect, the guy that

7:11

killed his wife and children and was

7:13

eventually incarcerated for that. Welch insisted when

7:15

he saw the photograph, that was the

7:17

man that he'd seen abducting the lion

7:19

sisters. And then he was

7:22

asked his personal opinion on what fate

7:24

he believed that had happened to the

7:26

girls. And he said, my opinion is

7:29

that Meleski killed him and raped him,

7:31

he probably burned him, I don't know.

7:33

And that really raised a lambels because

7:36

nobody had said anything about burning bodies.

7:38

Why would Welch suddenly bring that up?

7:40

And in his second interview with investigators,

7:43

Welch acknowledged observing the girls leads the

7:45

shopping centre, but this time he went

7:47

further and he said, Actually, he'd known

7:50

Moleski and that the children had been

7:52

taken to Moleski's house where they had

7:54

been, drugged up, molested, and murdered by

7:57

Moleski and two other individuals. he claimed

7:59

in this second interview that he didn't

8:01

know and he said that basically he'd

8:04

watched those events through the window of

8:06

a basement door but when he heard

8:08

one of the children's scream he'd fled.

8:10

And then in subsequent interviews with the

8:13

investigators he denied molesky's culpability in the

8:15

sister's abduction of murder and contradicted several

8:17

other claims given in his original interviews

8:20

and I kind of get the feeling

8:22

the investigators were testing him with the

8:24

molesky element. He was definitely someone of

8:27

interest to them so this wasn't... clutching

8:29

at straws with just picking a random

8:31

name, but he had been ruled out.

8:34

So for the police he wasn't a

8:36

viable suspect, but for Welch to then

8:38

adamantly say, yep, that's the man I

8:41

saw. It's just proving more and more.

8:43

Welch really fell for that, you know,

8:45

saying he saw him, then saying he

8:48

knew him. Then he starts saying he

8:50

was nothing to do with it. He's

8:52

just really taken the debate from the

8:55

investigators here. Welch was a mess and

8:57

it must have been really frustrating for

8:59

the police because he would just chop

9:02

and change the information he was giving

9:04

and he always denied his own involvement

9:06

in the kidnapping of the sisters and

9:09

the murder of the sisters that he

9:11

said he was aware of but he

9:13

would share his knowledge of relatives culpability

9:16

in the crime as well so his

9:18

own family members consistently maintained his own

9:20

innocence. He then started to admit that

9:23

he had been... a participant in the

9:25

planning and the commission of the kidnapping.

9:27

So he then was kind of saying

9:30

that actually I did know that they

9:32

were going to be kidnapped and I'd

9:34

seen them and I'd helped plan it

9:37

but actually it was this family member

9:39

or that family member who had actually

9:41

done the abducting and then who had

9:44

either done that and molesting the sisters

9:46

or had done everything. And like I

9:48

said he was a nightmare. He's not

9:51

a great witness, he's a terrible witness,

9:53

but that chopping and changing of his

9:55

stories did help to trip him up,

9:58

because he began to inadvertently reveal... details

10:00

of the crime that really would only

10:02

be known to a direct participant.

10:05

So rather than just talking about

10:07

what he'd seen other people do,

10:10

he then starts messing up and

10:12

mentioning things that he otherwise would

10:14

have, I can't think of the right

10:17

way to describe it, but things

10:19

that would then show that what

10:21

he said previously wasn't true. and

10:23

that that person couldn't have taken part

10:25

like he said originally because he's now

10:27

said that they weren't there or whatever

10:30

the reasons were. He was just kind

10:32

of chatting and he loved to talk

10:34

but he's just tripping himself up all

10:36

the way. Yeah I was just going

10:38

to say he's tripping himself up and

10:40

it's almost the police are providing him

10:43

with enough rope to hang himself.

10:45

Yeah 100% and over the interviews

10:47

the narrative finally became reasonably consistent.

10:50

and by July 2014 Welch's story

10:52

was the sisters had been abducted

10:54

and then raped and then killed

10:56

and that their bodies had been

10:59

incinerated. So he admitted to investigators

11:01

that the girls had been taken

11:03

to the concrete basement at his

11:06

uncle's residence in Hayetsville and there

11:08

one of the sisters was allegedly

11:10

sexually abused, the other was dismembered

11:12

and this is what he told

11:15

investigators. and then according to Welch

11:17

his father and his uncle had

11:19

threatened him so he had to

11:21

leave the girls at their mercy

11:24

at that location and he further

11:26

stated that he'd never again seen

11:28

the children alive and then claimed

11:30

that when he learned of the

11:32

sister's murders he had been forced

11:35

to participate in destroying all the

11:37

evidence of the crime at the

11:39

property and then after that he'd

11:41

actually helped to put the girls'

11:44

remains into a duffel bag. then

11:46

buried their bodies and that

11:48

was on family-owned land

11:50

in a area on Taylor's

11:52

Mountain in Thaxton in Virginia.

11:54

And so he kind of

11:56

then started saying that

11:58

he'd actually... so much more and

12:01

that he'd been forced into taking

12:03

part in some of the cleanup

12:05

afterwards. This is heading in the

12:07

direction where he's eventually just going

12:09

to tell the truth and confess

12:11

but it's 12 police interviews and

12:13

loads of back and forth and

12:15

having to give him all that

12:17

rope to hang himself with yeah

12:19

it's just mind bendingly frustrating. And

12:21

I feel like he was almost

12:23

kind of enjoying having a time

12:25

out of prison he's in the

12:27

room, everyone's giving him all that

12:29

attention. and nobody wants to talk,

12:31

like nobody wants to really talk

12:33

to him because he's horrible. It

12:35

was the final claim of Welch

12:37

witnessing a murder that led to

12:39

more information finally coming out. So

12:41

Welch has started to describe the

12:43

house where he said he and

12:45

his girlfriend sometimes stayed in. in

12:47

1975 in the area of Hayetsville

12:49

and his dad and stepmother lived

12:51

there he said and he said

12:53

it had a concrete dungeon-like basement

12:56

with access only from a rear

12:58

external door and he said he

13:00

was in the basement in the

13:02

days after the girls were abducted

13:04

and he saw his father and

13:06

an uncle dismember one of the

13:08

lion's sisters the older men had

13:10

then threatened him to clean up

13:12

the remains forced him to do

13:14

all these things to get rid

13:16

of the bodies. and detectives described

13:18

it as gruesome in the extreme

13:20

but teasingly credible. So of course

13:22

both the Hyatesville and Taylor's Mountain

13:24

residences were searched in September 2014

13:26

and Welch's family were of course

13:28

interviewed as well. A statement released

13:30

to the media by the parents

13:32

and siblings of Catherine and Sheila

13:34

came out just after the Montgomery

13:36

County Sheriff's Office formally announced Welch

13:38

as a person of interest, so

13:40

this was in February 2014. And

13:42

the family statement said, March the

13:44

25th will mark 39 years since

13:46

Kate and Sheila were taken from

13:48

our family and the fact that

13:50

so many people still care about

13:52

this case means a great deal

13:54

to us. Throughout these years our

13:56

hopes for a resolution of this

13:58

mystery have been sustained by the

14:01

support and efforts of countless members.

14:03

of law enforcement, the news media

14:05

and the community. And in their

14:07

statement the police revealed that Welch's

14:09

family lived insular lifestyles, frequently engaged

14:11

in incest both consensual and non-consensual.

14:13

They were like mountain people who

14:15

just really it was like the

14:17

family stayed within the family. Is

14:19

this like the Hills Have Eyes?

14:21

Have you seen that film? The

14:23

Hills have eyes? It is so

14:25

similar. The sort of people, or

14:27

you imagine this as well, the

14:29

Hills Have Eyes, is possible, like

14:31

could have been. I haven't seen

14:33

that in a very long time,

14:35

but I wouldn't be surprised if

14:37

that was almost like families like

14:39

this, and this case was some

14:41

of the inspiration. Oh, that was

14:43

a horrible film. I watched that

14:45

at a sleepover when I was

14:47

like 13. and the mom or

14:49

the dad had said like, oh

14:51

we could go to Blockbuster get

14:53

films and we'd chosen like some

14:55

nice ones. It was like a

14:57

group of girls and then we'd

14:59

also chosen that because the older

15:01

brother had said like, oh you

15:03

should get a scary film too

15:05

because you're having to sleep over.

15:08

And then in the middle of

15:10

the night we like left the

15:12

house in the dark and went

15:14

to a park and I'm just

15:16

like, what was wrong with that?

15:18

So ridiculous. And like I look

15:20

back and I'm like, what would

15:22

we do it? And why did

15:24

we do that? And why did

15:26

her mum and dad let us

15:28

do this? Well, I'm guessing they

15:30

didn't probably know that you'd left

15:32

in the middle of the night.

15:34

No, but I feel like they

15:36

probably should have checked what films

15:38

we'd got from blockbusters. I think

15:40

it was a lot more lax

15:42

back then because I used to

15:44

stay over at my mates when

15:46

I was about 13 and his

15:48

mom would go out. I think

15:50

I mentioned it a few months

15:52

ago on the podcast. His mom

15:54

would go out clubbing and not

15:56

come back. And my mom only

15:58

found this out about two years

16:00

ago. Well I didn't know that.

16:02

If I'd have known that I

16:04

wouldn't have let you go around

16:06

there. So yeah it was a

16:08

different world. It really was and

16:10

that was the first sleepover. I

16:12

have a vivid memory of... I

16:15

didn't want to go out to

16:17

the toilet on my own because

16:19

we were watching such a scary

16:21

horrible film and it was really

16:23

nasty so then we'd go in

16:25

pairs. and one of us would

16:27

stand outside the toilet with the

16:29

hallway light on while the other

16:31

one went into the downstairs low

16:33

and then we'd all get back

16:35

into the lounge it was it

16:37

was terrifying. So yeah fun just

16:39

just childhood trauma lovely yeah this

16:41

is exactly that kind of mountain

16:43

family kind of dynamic and that's

16:45

not to say that all of

16:47

the people in this family were

16:49

horrible people but they were very

16:51

much that closed knit community where

16:53

family and loyalty meant everything, but

16:55

also within that there were those

16:57

darker elements as well, incest and

16:59

the fact that some of it

17:01

was actually non-consensual as well, there

17:03

was elements of abuse as well

17:05

within this. Which obviously is awful,

17:07

but I mean, I'm not sure

17:09

you could ever say incest is

17:11

consensual or maybe it is very

17:13

occasionally, but yeah, that's the super

17:15

definition of... close-knit community, isn't it?

17:17

They're all fucking each other. So

17:20

Welch himself had been raised in

17:22

both foster care and later by

17:24

his dad, after his mum was

17:26

killed by a drunk driver, but

17:28

the mum was kind of killed

17:30

in this drunk driving accident that

17:32

had actually been caused by his

17:34

dad. So that was quite a

17:36

messy scenario. I can't find out

17:38

whether the dad was the drunk

17:40

driver or whether... the she was

17:42

and he'd caused the accident or

17:44

whatever happened or if there was

17:46

another drunk driver but for some

17:48

reason the dad was was seen

17:50

as the one who had actually

17:52

caused the crash. I read that

17:54

as the dad was the drunk

17:56

driver but I can't say that

17:58

for definite and Welch claimed that

18:00

his dad had repeatedly molested him

18:02

as a child. Between the mid-1970s

18:04

in the early 1990s Welch had

18:06

then travelled extensively throughout the year

18:08

United States. via his employment as

18:10

a ride operator for a carnival

18:12

company and that carnival company frequently

18:14

installed rides and booths next to

18:16

you or close to shopping malls,

18:18

so he had a lot of

18:20

opportunity to have those young victims

18:22

that would be hanging out at

18:24

such places. And to evade justice

18:27

because again we've seen that loads

18:29

of times when people are lorry

18:31

drivers, for example, and travel around

18:33

a country when they're moving from

18:35

area to area, it's really difficult

18:37

to get so messy to try

18:39

and put two and two together

18:41

and get to four because you've

18:43

got different police. departments, whatever, involved

18:45

in different counties, sharing of information

18:47

isn't very good, yeah, it's very

18:49

messy then. And especially when you

18:51

think 70s and 80s across the

18:53

US, maybe less so now, but

18:55

even now we've got those different

18:57

police departments across counties in the

18:59

UK, but there's the national police

19:01

database and we've got things like

19:03

that, but back then, yeah, there

19:05

wasn't. and then Welch continued that

19:07

kind of lifestyle so as an

19:09

adult he would travel around the

19:11

country sometimes hitchhiking, sometimes driving vehicles.

19:13

So again there's less of a

19:15

trail. And investigators revealed that although

19:17

physically attracted to adult females Welch

19:19

did have a sexual panchant for

19:21

adolescent female children and that he

19:23

had been arrested and convicted of

19:25

the rape of underage girls in

19:27

three states in the years following

19:29

the lion's sister's disappearance. In 2014,

19:31

when the extended family were investigated,

19:34

they were described by police as

19:36

clearly descendants of mountain people living,

19:38

as I said, insular lives. They

19:40

had a suspicion of outsiders and

19:42

authority, like the police, which meant

19:44

they quickly closed ranks. Welch's cousin

19:46

Henry Parker did tell detectives in

19:48

spring 1975 he had helped move

19:50

to army-style duffel bags from Welch's

19:52

vehicle. They weighed up to 70

19:54

pounds or so, and they smelt

19:56

like death. but he said that

19:58

Welch had told him that the

20:00

smell was rotten ground beef and

20:02

that it was meat that had

20:04

gone bad so that's why he

20:06

was checking it on a fire.

20:08

of the neighbours or the family

20:10

around had kind of suspected any

20:12

form of foul play or criminal

20:14

activity surrounding that fire because the

20:16

act of burning trash at that

20:18

location was quite normal. So this

20:20

cousin kind of was like it

20:22

wasn't that out of place. It

20:24

wasn't a weird scenario at the

20:26

time. Yeah it's not like a

20:28

random request is it? They're probably

20:30

quite self-sufficient in this mountain community

20:32

on the hills have eyes. and

20:34

Henry Parker's sister Connie Acres informed

20:36

investigators that at one point in

20:38

1975 she then a teenager witnessed

20:41

Welch and his partner arriving at

20:43

the property with a bulging army

20:45

green duffel bag from which was

20:47

a pungent odor emanating and again

20:49

you know he said it was

20:51

this spoiled beef but she also

20:53

said that she'd been asked by

20:55

Welch to assist in washing two

20:57

bags of blood-stained clothing but she'd

20:59

actually refused to help him. When

21:01

you think about super successful businesses

21:03

that are selling through the roof

21:05

like Heinz or Mattel, you think

21:07

about a great product, a cool

21:09

brand and brilliant marketing. But there's

21:11

a secret. The business behind the

21:13

business making selling simple for them

21:15

and buying simple for their customers.

21:17

For millions of businesses, that business

21:19

is Shopify. Upgrade your business and

21:21

get the same checkout as Heinz

21:23

and Mattel. Sign up for your

21:25

$1 per month trial period at

21:27

shopify.com/promo, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com/promo

21:29

to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com/promo.

21:31

Give your kids a summerful of

21:33

fun and learning. Give them ID

21:35

tech. ID tech camps are all

21:37

about high energy fun, meeting new

21:39

friends and are taught by elite

21:41

instructors. Located at 75 prestigious college

21:43

campuses all across the country, ID

21:46

Tech features over 50 epic courses,

21:48

like battle bots, AI and machine

21:50

learning, coding, game design, and more.

21:52

There's something for every kid ages

21:54

7 to 17 at ID Tech.

21:56

Sign up at ID tech.com and

21:58

use code ID Tech. to save

22:00

$150 on a week of a

22:02

lifetime. A forensic search of the Taylor's

22:04

Mountain House and land uncovered

22:06

small degraded fragments of human

22:08

bone, a single tooth, a

22:10

beaded necklace believed to have

22:13

been worn by Catherine, and

22:15

a section of charred wire

22:17

which may have been from

22:19

Sheila's glasses. But sadly for

22:21

investigators the sections of

22:24

bone fragments were just too

22:26

degraded to permit any form

22:28

of DNA analysis. and that

22:30

recovered tooth was actually lost

22:33

before analysis could be conducted.

22:35

And in May 2015, forensic

22:37

examination of the rear room

22:39

of the basement revealed extensive

22:41

traces of blood from the

22:43

concrete floor all the way up

22:45

to the ceiling. Samples were, like

22:47

I said, too degraded to

22:49

conduct a genealogical analysis, which

22:52

is really annoying, so also

22:54

that blood as well just

22:56

was too degraded. Welch

22:58

continued to deny culpability for

23:00

the girl's actual murder and

23:02

he kept giving revised account

23:04

so again in January February

23:07

and May 2015 and by July 2015

23:09

Welch was indicted on charges of

23:11

secondary murder and this time he

23:13

admitted to abducting the girls in

23:15

order that both his uncle and

23:17

he could sexually abuse them in

23:19

the basement of the Tale of

23:21

Mountain Home. Investigators

23:24

then also named Richard Welch the

23:26

uncle that he talked about as

23:28

a person of interest in their

23:31

ongoing investigation. Welch's dad wasn't because

23:33

he had died in 1998.

23:35

Although investigators publicly stated that

23:37

members of Welch's family were

23:40

considered people of interest Lloyd

23:42

Welch was the sole individual

23:44

to be indicted with regards

23:46

to the abduction abuse and

23:48

murder of the girls. And then

23:50

other... alleged participants. It was really

23:52

tricky with the other alleged people

23:54

because first of all you've got Welch

23:56

telling you that they're involved so he's

23:59

a nightmare anyway. a witness but there

24:01

was insufficient evidence or no witnesses

24:03

were willing to talk about them

24:06

so they couldn't really be charged

24:08

with any crimes it was just

24:10

Welch's word such a long time

24:12

ago so it's yeah it's very

24:14

difficult to bring someone to book

24:16

then and yeah I suppose they

24:18

know with Welch they've they've got

24:20

a pretty certain case here whereas

24:22

anybody else it could throw doubt on

24:25

that and then in turn on him yeah

24:27

100% So I do want to mention

24:29

the uncle Richard Welch. He was

24:31

never charged with his alleged involvement

24:33

in the sister's abduction and murder.

24:35

There was a lack of corroborating

24:38

evidence. His wife was actually charged

24:40

with perjury in December 2014 for

24:42

knowingly providing false information to investigators

24:44

and for encouraging a conspiracy of

24:47

silence within her family pertaining to

24:49

the case. Basically she was accused

24:51

of organising a stonewall of the

24:53

family against the police. doesn't

24:55

mean he's necessarily involved but my kind

24:58

of feeling with this is it felt

25:00

as though he he really would have

25:02

been involved and the police just didn't

25:04

have enough evidence but we can't say

25:07

that for definite. It sounds like it

25:09

but then equally you've said that this

25:11

community is suspicious of outsiders and the

25:13

police so it could it could be

25:15

that she's just saying well Yeah, I'm

25:17

organising this wall of silence because we

25:19

don't trust outsiders, we don't trust the

25:22

police. You're going to try and frame

25:24

us for this. So that's why I'm

25:26

telling people not to talk. Not because

25:28

actually I'm scared that they might implicate

25:30

themselves in a crime they did commit.

25:32

Exactly. We just don't know. So there are

25:34

some really interesting elements to the idea that

25:37

more men were involved in the kidnap of

25:39

the sisters and what is likely to have

25:41

happened to them before they were killed. So

25:43

as I mentioned Welch's stories were always chopping

25:46

and changing but detectives realised that if they

25:48

just kind of listened to the overall gist

25:50

of what he said, not you know paying

25:52

attention to the little details and just allowed

25:55

his words to wash over them and they

25:57

just could take on the important elements.

26:00

they would eventually get to the

26:02

truth. So like that whole burned

26:04

up comment that he made quite

26:06

early on, why would that even

26:08

be in his head? Why was

26:10

that something that was mentioned? So

26:12

they just listened and listened and

26:14

then just picked on elements that

26:16

they could see whether or not

26:18

he continued to mention or whether

26:20

they were expanded upon. He'd also

26:22

often give truthful elements wrapped up

26:24

in nonsense and changing stories. So

26:26

one of the elements was... he

26:28

talked about a station wagon on

26:30

a few occasions and that didn't

26:32

really change it was always a

26:34

station wagon whether or not the

26:36

story started with one person him

26:38

seeing moleski or whoever it was

26:40

and then on a few occasions

26:42

he mentioned a basement in a

26:44

property that was accessible from the

26:46

backyard that was another kind of

26:48

element to this things that that

26:50

he mentioned a few times but

26:52

were always wrapped up in other

26:55

things. So then the

26:57

police would look at other elements

26:59

to the case or new properties

27:01

and that's how they really managed

27:03

to link everything together. So Welch

27:05

had said to Detective Davis about

27:07

his uncle's home in Hyatesville. When

27:09

the detective checked out that house

27:11

some of the elements made no

27:13

sense so he's implicating his uncle

27:16

and he's saying that the children

27:18

were taken to his uncle's house.

27:20

But it wasn't really secluded enough

27:22

so why would you risk bringing

27:24

kidnapped children there? It was actually

27:26

really close proximity to the local

27:28

city police headquarters and it didn't

27:30

have the right kind of basement

27:32

and actually there was something to

27:35

do with where they'd driven away

27:37

from his uncle's house and the

27:39

river was on one side of

27:41

them but that wasn't the case

27:43

when Detective Davis was investigating the

27:45

property. And it's things like that,

27:47

the comment of I turned left,

27:49

you probably wouldn't, even if you're

27:51

trying to lie about where you

27:54

were and you're saying it's in

27:56

a different setting, you might forget

27:58

to say that you turn left

28:00

because you always turn left when

28:02

you leave that. property you really

28:04

are talking about? Yeah it's like

28:06

he's well he's tripping himself up

28:08

but it's also like he's giving

28:10

just enough information for this to

28:13

sound plausible yeah but with the

28:15

intention of absolutely giving the police

28:17

a headache so that it all

28:19

nearly makes sense but doesn't so

28:21

this it does seem like a

28:23

power play on his part to

28:25

have the police running around like

28:27

headless chickens but unfortunately for him

28:29

he probably is tripping himself up

28:31

too much and giving away too

28:34

much information and not relying on

28:36

the police's brain power to actually

28:38

make sense of what he's saying

28:40

so he's screwing it up in

28:42

the end. And I think when

28:44

you make up a lie as

28:46

well, it's hard to remember what

28:48

you've lied. But when it's based

28:50

on... I've never lied. Of course

28:53

you haven't, but when it's based

28:55

on truthful elements, those are the

28:57

only things that are going to

28:59

stay consistent because you forget maybe

29:01

what bits you've lied about. It's,

29:03

yeah, he's just, the police did

29:05

a great job here of just

29:07

kind of listening to everything and

29:09

then going right, what are the

29:12

bits that actually will be true.

29:14

or truthful. So Detective Davis was,

29:16

you know, this was all about

29:18

his uncle's property that the girls

29:20

were taken to, but when Detective

29:22

Davis looked at Welch's dad's property,

29:24

loads of elements that he'd mentioned

29:26

really fit well. So like I

29:28

said before, he kind of described

29:31

seeing his uncle pull out of

29:33

a driveway with the girls in

29:35

the car heading towards a river,

29:37

heading towards a river, but... At

29:39

his dad's house, that made sense.

29:41

You drive away towards the river.

29:43

And the location fit his description

29:45

perfectly. The descriptions he was giving

29:47

were exactly correct for his dad's

29:50

house, not his uncles. And they

29:52

kind of were able to work

29:54

this out. It was the wrong

29:56

place, but once they found the

29:58

correct place, Welch had given away

30:00

so much information. It was there

30:02

that the police found this basement

30:04

that had a separate entrance from

30:06

the property and all that blood

30:09

was in there. When they lit

30:11

up the light to have look,

30:13

they could see that someone or

30:15

something had been killed there and

30:17

straightaway they knew that this was

30:19

the property he was talking about,

30:21

not his uncle. remained an almost

30:23

constant individual named in Welch's later

30:25

allegations and from what investigators could

30:28

see it was quite likely he

30:30

had been involved but of course

30:32

like I said before we can't

30:34

say that for definite and it

30:36

just felt as though the police

30:38

they just didn't have evidence that

30:40

wasn't Welch that that could really

30:42

do anything to really investigate him

30:44

properly. At one point... Welch told

30:46

a reporter, how do you think

30:49

I would take two little girls

30:51

out of the mall kicking and

30:53

screaming? Who would be able to

30:55

do something like that? A man

30:57

in uniform. His uncle Richard had

30:59

worked as a security guard and

31:01

he also told that reporter that

31:03

he did not understand why his

31:05

uncle Richard had never been charged.

31:08

And this was many years later,

31:10

so it does make sense that

31:12

his uncle potentially was involved. So

31:14

do we think the uncle was

31:16

the tape recorder guy? It's really

31:18

tricky isn't it? I think. Potentially,

31:20

we don't know. Potentially, I think

31:22

that the tape recorder guy was

31:24

either the uncle or the dad.

31:27

Yeah, because that would match with

31:29

the age gap. Yeah, and having

31:31

two people to kidnap two children,

31:33

because if it's just Welch, how

31:35

is he going to get them

31:37

in the car? If a security

31:39

guard comes over, for example, and

31:41

start saying to the girls, oh,

31:43

we need you to come with

31:46

us, they might start to go

31:48

with them because it's an authority

31:50

figure, because it's an authority figure,

31:52

because it's an authority figure, Yeah,

31:54

so I do agree with you

31:56

and I do believe that the

31:58

tape recorder guy was probably an

32:00

older relative of Welch's. By the

32:02

time of Welch's indictment, Cold Case

32:05

Investigates had devoted more than 16,000

32:07

hours to the re-investigation of the

32:09

sister's disappearance. They'd issued more than

32:11

50 search warrants. They'd conducted more

32:13

than 100 formal interviews with family

32:15

members, eyewitnesses and other persons of

32:17

interest. And eventually Welch pled guilty

32:19

to the murder of the sisters

32:21

in September 2017 at the Bedford

32:24

County Sheriff's Office. So Welch now,

32:26

a 60-year-old, pleaded guilty to two

32:28

counts of first-degree murder. from back

32:30

into 1975. And this was via

32:32

a plea bargain in which he

32:34

admitted to participating in the girls'

32:36

abduction, not to their sexual assault

32:38

and murder. So first of all

32:40

he was like, I'm still willing

32:42

to kind of admit to that,

32:45

but then he did plead guilty

32:47

to two counts of first-degree murder

32:49

on the 12th of September 2017.

32:51

So he still denied killing the

32:53

girls. but he was basically allowing

32:55

himself to be held accountable for

32:57

their deaths because they died in

32:59

the commission of the abductions and

33:01

within abductions with the intent to

33:04

defile. So it's not just an

33:06

abduction, it's an objection where the

33:08

end goal is going to be

33:10

the rape of these girls and

33:12

they've died during this. So he's

33:14

kind of admitted it but is

33:16

still trying not to. I wonder

33:18

if there's an element of him

33:20

that just can't bring himself to

33:23

admit to what he actually did

33:25

or maybe there is some truth

33:27

in his version of events that

33:29

he was involved in a lot

33:31

of this but actually he didn't

33:33

kill these two girls or assault

33:35

them. And I think for me,

33:37

I think that his history, you

33:39

know, he had raped and abused

33:42

children. I think he probably was

33:44

a willing participant in a lot

33:46

of this. Either was the person

33:48

who came up with the kidnap

33:50

or at least was well involved

33:52

in the kidnap. He's then taken

33:54

the girls and I do think

33:56

that he was involved in what

33:58

happened to them. whether or not

34:01

he wanted them to be murdered

34:03

and that was more something where

34:05

he was pressured into that because

34:07

other family members would be

34:10

quite rightly saying they're going

34:12

to tell and we will be found

34:14

whereas his other crimes he hadn't

34:16

done that so I wonder if that

34:18

was almost a bit too far for

34:21

him but I I do think that

34:23

he was absolutely involved in

34:25

the abduction and the rape and I

34:27

wonder about the murder side of it

34:29

and whether or not he hit there

34:31

was some truth in that when he

34:33

said he was forced to take part. As

34:35

part of the plea Welch also agreed

34:37

to plead guilty in two unrelated

34:39

child sex assault cases from the

34:42

1990s things that had come out

34:44

from further investigations into

34:46

the Lion Sisters. Due to a

34:48

prior agreement with the Lion family,

34:50

the prosecution had agreed not to

34:52

seek the death penalty in return

34:54

for Welch's guilty plea. Basically, that

34:56

was kind of on the understanding that if

34:59

he gave a guilty plea it would

35:01

spare the family years of litigated pleas

35:03

against the sentence, if they'd have gone

35:06

for the death's penalty, they knew that

35:08

he was going to appeal that and

35:10

that the family would have to spend more

35:12

time in court. The surviving lion

35:14

family remained intensely private about the

35:17

case, but the girl's parents both

35:19

77 years old at this point

35:21

and their brothers were all present

35:23

at the hearing. And Welch

35:25

received two concurrent 48-year sentences

35:28

in relation to two counts

35:30

of first-degree murder and a

35:33

concurrent 12-year sentence relating to

35:35

two unrelated sexual assaults committed

35:38

against children, so those other

35:40

unrelated cases. So yeah, 48 years.

35:42

At this point, how old was

35:44

he? I think he was like

35:47

60-something. Yeah, he was 60 years

35:49

old. So yeah, the 48 years,

35:51

even though these are

35:53

concurrent sentences, he was

35:56

clearly never going to get

35:58

out in his lifetime. prosecutor

36:00

stated following work to his conviction,

36:02

in my heart of hearts I

36:04

know that we put one of

36:07

the main perpetrators away. Catherine and

36:09

Sheila Lyon were two beautiful young

36:11

sisters whose disappearance left a permanent

36:13

hole in the heart of all

36:15

who knew them. It was truly

36:17

an inspiration to work with their

36:19

strong and enduring family and we

36:21

are proud to offer some semblance

36:23

of justice today. Welch was actually

36:25

prosecuted in Bedford County and that's

36:27

because that's where... authorities believed that

36:29

the children's bodies were buried after

36:31

they were burned so that was

36:33

why they went to that location.

36:35

And so as I said before

36:38

he was in prison at the

36:40

time he was in prison in

36:42

Delaware when the police went to

36:44

go and talk to him at

36:46

the start of those 12 conversations

36:48

that they had. So when he

36:50

finished his prison term in Delaware

36:52

that he was serving for that

36:54

little 10-year-old that he'd raped, Welch

36:56

was then transferred to... the Virginia

36:58

facility to then continue his sentence

37:00

and that was actually only on

37:02

the 7th of January this year.

37:04

So he's now in his late

37:06

60s and this year he has

37:09

officially begun his sentence because he

37:11

had to wait until he'd finished

37:13

that other sentence for that little

37:15

10 year old. He's officially now

37:17

incarcerated for the murders of Sheila

37:19

and Catherine. Yeah he's in his

37:21

late 60s now and that is

37:23

the 48 years starting now. Sadly,

37:25

of course, though, the ultimate location

37:27

of Sheila and Catherine's body remains

37:29

unknown, and apparently every day Welch

37:31

wakes up worrying that someone might

37:33

put a shank in him for

37:35

his crimes, that's something he told

37:38

a reporter in 2019, and he

37:40

really complained about how life in

37:42

prison is, as a rapist and

37:44

child murderer, and the treatment that

37:46

he's received, and I don't feel

37:48

sad for him, I'll be honest,

37:50

I don't feel sad for him

37:52

at all. Following Welch's conviction, John

37:54

Lyon thanked cold case detectives and

37:56

law enforcement officers on behalf of

37:58

his family for never ceasing in

38:00

their efforts to bring those responsible

38:02

for his daughter's abduction and murder

38:04

to justice. and he said, we

38:06

just want to say thank you,

38:09

it's been a really long time.

38:11

So there we go, what are

38:13

your thoughts Mark? I mean that's

38:15

crazy that it took just decades

38:17

and decades to get anywhere with

38:19

it and thank God that case

38:21

was properly revisited in... 2013 and

38:23

even then it takes years and

38:25

years to bring somebody to justice

38:27

and also I think it's frustrating

38:29

that there's at least one to

38:31

maybe more people that will never

38:33

serve a sentence for this because

38:35

they were involved but they have

38:37

since died or whatever so yeah

38:40

there is a there is a

38:42

form of justice here but not

38:44

full justice and that the saddest

38:46

part that the girls their bodies

38:48

the location of their bodies wouldn't

38:50

will remain unknown yeah for the

38:52

parents of the family it's just

38:54

such a sad sad story and

38:56

I just kept on being reminded

38:58

about how strong that family were

39:00

and how they just stayed really

39:02

like calm and respectful and actually

39:04

out of the media they they

39:06

just were just grateful to the

39:08

police and I just thought what

39:11

an investigation but yeah so frustrating

39:13

that I I really do believe

39:15

that at least the dad and

39:17

uncle were also involved in some

39:19

way but that the dad had

39:21

died already so he died without

39:23

even knowing that his involvement might

39:25

have been looked at and the

39:27

uncle obviously there is no evidence,

39:29

so I can't say that for

39:31

definite, but that he in my

39:33

opinion has got away with that

39:35

as well because nothing's ever going

39:37

to come of his potential involvement.

39:40

This is all now on Welch.

39:42

I do think that absolutely he

39:44

deserves that and he's 100% involved

39:46

at least in the beginning elements,

39:48

if not the whole thing. So

39:50

at least there is some sort

39:52

of justice, but it is a

39:54

real shame that potentially... more information

39:56

isn't known and where the goals

39:58

are that they couldn't be returned.

40:00

their family somehow. Yeah, incredibly

40:03

sad. Wow, okay, well,

40:05

yeah, we'll leave it

40:07

there for season 12

40:09

and we'll be back

40:11

with season 13 premiere

40:13

on Wednesday the 9th of

40:15

April, so we will see you

40:17

then. Bye. Check

40:58

engine light on take the guesswork

41:00

out of your check engine light

41:02

with O'Reilly barre scan. It's free

41:04

ask for O'Reilly barre scan today