0:05

Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast

0:07

where we talk about the culture we love

0:09

that is sometimes based around a Shakespeare play.

0:12

My name is Caroline and you can be

0:14

overwhelmed and you can be underwhelmed. Can you

0:16

ever just be overwhelmed? And joining me

0:18

is the woman who's always on the guest list

0:20

for Bogey Levin's team's parties. It's Coco Malors. Hi,

0:23

thank you so much for having me. This

0:25

is such a delight to have you on. I

0:27

can't believe we're finally, finally doing this episode

0:29

after many requests over many

0:31

years. I had no idea that this

0:33

was an episode that you were resisting doing. It was

0:35

just giving the people what they want, what they

0:37

need. There was a few, when I first started this

0:39

podcast and when I started like extending it to

0:41

kind of movies and things, I had a few sort

0:43

of ring fence things where I was like, the

0:45

whole point of this podcast is that it's like underloved

0:48

pieces of pop culture. Yes, yes. And there's something

0:50

a bit wrong with them or whatever. And there's a

0:52

few things where I was like, I'm not doing

0:54

that. I'm not doing Clueless. I'm not doing 10 things

0:56

I hate about you because I was like, those

0:58

things are perfect and they've always been adored. And beloved,

1:00

beloved, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, Canon,

1:02

beloved, and like I do think Tennings have I

1:04

used one of the... Probably one of the best

1:06

teen movies ever made, right? I agree. Totally. Perfect

1:09

cast, perfect writing, genius choices throughout. Everybody

1:11

who made this film had great taste.

1:13

Yeah, they really did. And so I

1:15

was like, well, where's the sentimental garbage

1:17

turn? But when, when Coco Malores wants

1:19

to come on, talk about 10 things every

1:21

day, I was like, I will lift the

1:23

ban. Because I think you're fantastic. And we've been

1:25

sitting here for 10 minutes and I'm like,

1:27

well, she's obviously the best person ever. I

1:29

know we've already had the podcast before the podcast.

1:31

We already had the Ginny chat. But

1:33

now. get to talk about this. Which is, yes. Tell

1:36

me everything, tell me how this movie came into your

1:38

life and tell me how it stays in your life.

1:40

So this film came into my life, I think, I

1:42

mean, I can't actually remember how old I was when

1:45

I, I can't remember my life without it. Yeah, I

1:47

would the same. It's just a part of the

1:49

tapestry of who I am. It's part of my DNA.

1:51

And I, it's my sister's favorite film. And,

1:54

and my mum loves it too. So it's like every

1:56

generation of women in my family. And how old is

1:58

sister? She's two years older than me. And

2:00

so, and we are like, we're so

2:02

similar to the sisters in the film. I

2:04

felt like I think it was the first

2:06

depiction of sisterhood I saw that felt realistic

2:08

to me in that they do not

2:10

really like each other, but obviously love each

2:12

other and would always choose each other

2:14

at the end of the day. But it

2:17

was nice to have not such a

2:19

sanitized version of siblinghood show. Like I loved

2:21

that they were so with each other

2:23

throughout the first, like, basically the whole film,

2:25

I would say, right until the end. And

2:28

it just felt like it normalized what

2:30

was going on between me and my sister

2:32

when we were teenagers, which is that we loved

2:34

each other. I mean, obviously, and we're very

2:36

close now, but we were pretty mean to each

2:38

other, to be honest. For

2:40

a lot of our teenage life. It's

2:42

so, it is one of the

2:44

most sort of lived in dynamics in the

2:46

whole thing, that whole, that family. And

2:48

I just, I love them together because

2:50

I feel like in teen movies, you see

2:52

a lot of brother -sister dynamics and they're

2:55

like, get out of my room. But

2:58

the thing that this actually reminded me of

3:00

watching it again last night was Daria and

3:02

Quinn. Did you ever watch that cartoon? yes,

3:04

yeah, yeah. Well, it's a very similar dynamic,

3:06

I guess, where one is sort of glam

3:09

and one is very shiny. Yeah, exactly.

3:11

But then I think in 10 Things I Had

3:13

About You, they resist. Dario, I

3:15

think they never break the tropes. That's the whole

3:17

point, you know? And in 10 Things I

3:19

Had About You, what's so exciting about the film

3:21

is that both sisters at certain points play

3:23

against their type. Yes. So we see

3:25

when Cat, you know, the famous dancing scene

3:27

is so, it's amazing because it's her sort

3:29

of breaking out of her usual role of

3:31

being sort of always separate or cooler than.

3:33

And then when Bianca punches the ex -boyfriend

3:36

or the boyfriend, it's so amazing because

3:38

we get this moment of someone who's very sweet and

3:40

sort of feminine and, and, and gullified

3:42

suddenly become this like

3:44

badass woman. Yeah. Yeah. And

3:46

very babied as well. And like, it's

3:48

very as a, as a perennial youngest child.

3:50

Like I always love seeing that representation

3:52

of youngest children. on screen, that thing of

3:54

like somebody who has been babied their

3:57

whole life, and you can tell, and they're

3:59

desperately trying to break out against

4:01

that mould, but they also don't

4:03

have the tools with which to do it. It's

4:05

like she wants to be taken seriously, but she kind

4:07

of Bianca resorts to like stamping her fur

4:09

and sort of screaming kind of so

4:11

quickly, because that's the only tool she has to

4:13

get what she wants. I'm also the younger

4:15

sister, and I think it's like, because it's

4:17

as with every role in a family, I

4:19

think there's benefits to it, and there's ways

4:21

that it's really claustrophobic. Maybe it's... if we

4:23

just start with the family, because I think,

4:26

you know, that little trio, they're so, so

4:28

dear to me. They've like Kat and

4:30

Bianca, and then the dad in the middle.

4:32

He is just one of the best

4:34

film dads. I,

4:37

so so frequently in

4:39

teen movies, the parents are such an

4:41

afterthought. It's like, you know, be home

4:43

by 10. And like, I think what's

4:45

great about what's wonderful

4:48

whenever something modern bases itself on

4:50

either Jane Austen book or a Shakespeare player

4:52

or whatever. And we had this with West

4:54

Side Story a few weeks ago is that

4:56

they have to contend with the material that

4:58

is quite difficult. There's quite difficult. plot

5:01

leaps to make, to plug

5:03

into a modern context. So it's

5:05

like, well, what's the deal with this fucking

5:07

dad? Why won't he let his girls

5:09

date and like this is. quite clearly seen

5:11

as unusual within their like high school

5:13

and stuff. And this thing everyone knows about

5:15

them. Everyone knows that that's mental dad.

5:18

And so like finding reasons for him to

5:20

be crazy, but also lovable. And it's

5:22

done so perfectly. I mean,

5:24

I think having him be a doctor, having him

5:26

be a movie, I mean, when they make Bianca

5:28

wear the pregnancy. That's

5:31

the image of this movie that stays in my

5:33

head most. But it's so, I

5:35

mean, he's such an amazing character because

5:37

we get like they, there are these tiny

5:39

moments in that film. that aren't necessary

5:41

at all. Like for example, when he's watching

5:43

the ad for the hairspray, that can

5:45

like little spray, and his reaction to it.

5:47

And like, that doesn't move plot forward.

5:49

That doesn't do anything other than just give

5:51

us this little moment of humanity for

5:53

him. It's like, it's sweet and

5:55

it's poking fun at him, but it's also

5:57

kind of vulnerable. And like, that is so

5:59

hard. It seems easy to do that, but

6:01

I know, you know, from writing books, like

6:03

it's so necessary for character, but it's not

6:05

always easy to find what those things are.

6:08

And they just do it so well in

6:10

this film. Him and his exercise gear, I

6:12

just love so much. The idea that he's

6:14

like this sort of overworked doctor with two kids,

6:16

he's trying to keep an eye on, but he's got this massive

6:18

amazing house and he's clearly fucking rich. And

6:20

his wife has left him for reasons we don't

6:22

understand. Weirdly, I always remembered this as them

6:24

having a dead mum, but watching him back up

6:26

is like, oh no, she left them. I

6:28

know. I thought she was dead too. And then,

6:31

I mean, I do think it's slightly ambiguous,

6:33

but no, it does say because mum left, the

6:35

word is left. There

6:37

is this sense that it's completely final because

6:39

at one point Bianca says, like, it's not like

6:41

she's coming back to claim these pearls. Yes.

6:43

And so my memory of that line, that thing

6:45

with the pearls is quite a haunting scene,

6:47

actually. It's played very differently to those scenes where

6:49

Bianca is wearing the pearls in their kind of

6:51

matching but opposite vanity mirrors. She's

6:55

like, they look good on me and like, she's

6:57

not coming back. And I thought that always

6:59

referred to because she's dead. And then

7:01

later in the movie, Kat

7:03

says, oh, since mom left. actually

7:06

really surprised me on this watch round. But I

7:08

actually, you know, that moment with the pearl necklace,

7:10

it's so acid, like it's not sweet between the

7:12

two of them at all. There's no, and I

7:14

do think it captures something which is very true,

7:17

which is that after a loss in the family,

7:19

whether it's in this case, you know, maybe the

7:21

mother abandoned them or maybe she died, the

7:23

sort of hope, I guess, is that family

7:25

then come together and sort of band around each

7:27

other. And, you know, and they do in

7:30

some ways, but in other ways, it completely fractures

7:32

the family and they're having such different experiences

7:34

of the loss. But it isolates

7:36

them from each other. So

7:38

that pearl necklace scene, it's such a moment of

7:40

tension and strife between them. And there's the jealousy,

7:42

which I also think is true of sisters, which

7:44

is like, I love my sister so much. But

7:46

yesterday, even in a bookstore, my mom was like,

7:48

oh, I'm going to get this Wendy Cote poetry

7:51

book for Daisy. And I was like, why not

7:53

for me? I like

7:55

poems. The

7:57

instinct was so gut -reaction.

7:59

Like, why are

8:01

you giving something to my sister and not to me?

8:03

And it's a part of myself that I really

8:05

hope I don't exhibit anywhere else in my life. Like,

8:07

I have to think I'm quite generous, but

8:09

for some reason, and I love my sister, I

8:11

would give her a book of Wendy Coppo, but

8:13

it's something about my mum giving it to her.

8:16

Because she's sort of like acknowledging a depth in your

8:18

sister and not acknowledging it in you or something.

8:20

Yeah, or just even acknowledging that she's thinking of my

8:22

sister and I'm like, but I'm... but

8:26

the very real pain of

8:28

adolescence is taken very seriously

8:31

in this movie, like when

8:33

Bianca rejects Cameron. And

8:35

like when he says to her, you know, you can't

8:37

just treat people like they don't matter. I

8:39

find the pain of that is so

8:41

real. Oh, I know. And also I was

8:43

thinking about being a teenager, like what

8:45

you've never, so many of the emotions you

8:47

have as a teenager, you've never had

8:49

before. So you don't have that. You know,

8:51

that's why I think so much literature

8:53

and art focuses on adolescence because it is

8:56

that kind of like built in operatic

8:58

emotional landscape. Like the first time you have

9:00

your heart broken, you have no idea

9:02

that this happens and you recover and you

9:04

love someone. else and yeah you know so

9:06

it just it's very ripe I think

9:08

for creativity that time and sort of

9:10

returning to creatively yeah and I think

9:12

this film like yeah it does it

9:14

justice in a way I was actually

9:16

reading an interview with the director whose

9:18

name I'm forgetting now but he was

9:20

saying he didn't want to make like

9:22

a high school movie he wanted to

9:24

make like a real romantic character driven

9:26

story that just happens to take place

9:28

in high school and I think that

9:30

these characters are given that sort of

9:32

that three dimensionality that like grace to

9:34

be meant contradictory things, even though they are

9:36

teenagers. Yeah, and I

9:38

think what's so well done about

9:40

it is that particularly the character

9:42

of Cat Stratford, it's

9:45

a really hard character to play

9:47

because For like, if

9:49

you've ever done like an improv

9:51

class or even seen anything about improv.

9:53

I have not, I would rather die. I would have to

9:55

die. Well, you know, with the sort of the kind of

9:57

the understood sort of rules of improv. Not because I think that

9:59

improv is bad, but because I would. Because

10:01

I cannot do it.

10:04

I like the yes and. Exactly.

10:07

I mean, some of being on podcasts is a

10:09

little like improv, I would say. And then you

10:11

have to just go with it. Yeah, sort of.

10:13

Yeah, it kind It is. I mean, you

10:15

are performing to an audience that is invisible, but

10:18

you do have to say yes. But like, you

10:20

know, if we were on this podcast and like

10:22

everything I said, you were like, no, kind of

10:24

thing. I mean, it would just, it would

10:26

be a really flat and dead podcast, even

10:28

if you were being funny, even if your one

10:30

line is really like great, which Kat

10:32

Stratford are, but like it's like, um,

10:34

it's a really hard character to find

10:36

energy with and same with any kind

10:38

of character, who their main thing is

10:40

they're snarky or whatever, because they're sort

10:42

of, she cuts off. situations by just

10:45

stonewalling people, right? Yeah.

10:47

And so she's even kind of

10:49

a, because Julia Stiles is so

10:51

talented, you want to watch her do

10:53

anything, but for the first movement of the

10:55

movie, she's quite difficult to spend time

10:57

with. And like, that's the point of her, but

10:59

also from a filmic sense, like

11:02

you need to go through so many layers of

11:04

Cat Stratford to really love her. Yes. Yes. I

11:06

think that's really true. I think the reason it

11:08

works is actually just the quality of the writing

11:10

is so good that those Ziggy one line. is

11:12

like when he's sort of like, you know, I

11:14

did have an effect on you, Heath Ledger's character

11:16

and she goes like, other than my upchuck reflex,

11:18

you know, like this is such like,

11:20

they're just such great lines. And so

11:23

like the quality of the dialogue carries it.

11:25

And then we have these moments of

11:27

vulnerability when we see her longing to be

11:29

in a band and express herself. And

11:31

that party scene where she dances and ends

11:33

up throwing up and is, you know, unfortunately,

11:35

sort of softened by alcohol, you know,

11:37

which I think many of us have experienced

11:39

as teenagers. That's sort of the

11:41

turning point for her. And then we see

11:43

her be humiliated, you know, and rejected. And

11:46

that, I think, is a moment that's really

11:48

important in the film where there's that kind of

11:50

point where she's always on top, you know,

11:52

she's always got the comeback. She's always protected and

11:54

defensive. And then we see that fall. So

11:57

are you talking about the moment after the

11:59

house part of Bogey Levenstein? Bogey

12:01

Levenstein. obsessed with Bogey Levenstein.

12:04

And also, I'm obsessed with that shot

12:06

where they throw the flyers for the

12:08

party and it's shot from below and

12:10

they're falling down the stairwell and all

12:12

the kids' hands are grabbing for them.

12:14

And there's that amazing song in the

12:17

background. Sexy pie. It's

12:20

so fucking iconic. It's such a great shot.

12:23

I mean, those moments, I

12:25

think about it a lot when I'm writing, where

12:27

can I have moments where I stop time

12:29

and you just pause and have something just

12:31

feel... cinematic and amazing. It's so

12:33

gorgeous to sort of like use the

12:35

stairwell in that way in a

12:37

movie as well. I can't imagine it

12:39

was done before, but I think

12:41

what I really admired from a writing

12:44

and plotting point of view this time around,

12:46

which I never picked up before, is the whole

12:48

thing that from the very beginning, we have that

12:50

classic scene that mean girls later riffed

12:52

on of like, oh, hey, you're new to the

12:54

school. all the people who

12:56

go here. The groups are so

12:58

amazing. The groups are mental. And that's

13:00

the cowboy group. There's the coffee

13:02

kids. The coffee kids. There's the white

13:04

Rastafarians. I mean, it's so amazing

13:06

because the groups are so not actually

13:08

what you would find in any

13:10

high school. No, but I love that

13:12

they sort of turn, because generally it's like,

13:14

oh, here's the AV kids. Yes, exactly. soccer

13:17

kids, like, no, they're such a cowboy. You

13:19

know, every school has a You're literally

13:21

lassoing a trash can. It's

13:24

great. But then

13:26

there's this bit where I can't remember the

13:28

name of the character, but I love him.

13:31

Cameron's guy, he's right hand

13:33

man. Oh, I know. What is his name? Oh,

13:35

he's so sweet. He's so good at everything he

13:37

does. Yeah, he really is.

13:40

Well, we know who we're talking about. We know who we're

13:42

talking about, his nerdy friend. But he says

13:44

to him, Oh, that's

13:46

sort of, um, those are kind of the

13:48

young leaders of tomorrow or whatever. It's kind of

13:50

basically the, the wannabe yuppies. And

13:52

then he kind of mentions in a very offhand way, oh,

13:54

I try to be in that group, but they

13:56

kick me out for some fucking reason or

13:59

whatever. And then later on, it's Bogey

14:01

Levinstein, who's obsessed with golf and

14:03

achievement. And like, that That must

14:05

be Nigel with like a young Republican. Yeah,

14:07

exactly. And, And that must

14:10

be Nigel with the breeze. It's a

14:12

man that must be Nigel with the breeze.

14:14

It's so good.

14:17

Um... And that the whole thing

14:19

is that Cameron's dorky friend is getting

14:21

revenge on Bogey Levenstein for kicking

14:23

him out of the group. And that's

14:25

why he's turned Bogey's party into

14:27

this massive raging kegger with the

14:29

fliers and stuff. And it's actually

14:31

a totally unnecessary plot point, but it

14:33

just gives dimensionality to this school

14:35

and this world that there are like,

14:37

yes, there's a scheme going with Cameron

14:40

and Joey and Kat and Bianca,

14:42

but there are many schemes going. And

14:44

it gives this sort of real sense of there

14:46

being many layers to this. And it's a closed

14:48

loop world. You know, that's just something very satisfying

14:50

about that when there's, you know, a joke that

14:52

returns or yes, like, yeah, it's easy to miss,

14:54

but he says, like, you know, like I was

14:57

there God until Bogey Lo and see it, like

14:59

started a rumor about him or something like, I

15:01

can't even remember what the rumor was. It was

15:03

something so benign. I

15:05

was enough for him to be

15:07

toppled from this like young business group.

15:09

But like, I think one of the kind

15:11

of character things that doesn't like quite

15:13

totally, it makes sense in the Shakespeare context,

15:15

but doesn't make sense in a

15:17

modern filmic, how people behave context is like,

15:19

why is this dorky character so invested

15:21

in Cameron getting with Bianca? He barely

15:24

knows Cameron. He doesn't know Bianca. Why

15:26

is he like going over to Joey's

15:28

table and getting a dick drawn on

15:30

his face? Like he's got no skin in

15:32

the game. He just wants things to happen. But

15:34

like it makes more sense if you're like, oh,

15:36

he just loves a scheme. He loves scheming. It's

15:38

Machiavellian, you know? And he has a chip on

15:40

his shoulder. I think that's part of it. It's

15:42

just he wants to see these sort of deified,

15:44

popular kids toppled in any way. He wants like

15:46

a win for the underdog, whether it's for him

15:48

or for his friend. Yeah. And who can't relate

15:50

to that? You know, we want it too. Yeah.

15:54

A whole bit where he's

15:56

explaining the concept while Joey's drawing a

15:58

dick on his face and he just completely unflinches.

16:00

I have a dick on my face

16:02

down now. It's so good. I

16:05

know there's so many good moments. One of the

16:07

things I don't - and like, obviously, you know,

16:09

you quoted it in the intro. I had remembered

16:11

that you can be overwhelmed. You can be underwhelmed.

16:13

Can you ever just be well? Like that line

16:15

is obviously, you know, tattooed on my

16:17

brain forever. then the response is, I

16:20

think you can in Europe. And I was

16:22

just like, that is what takes a film

16:24

or a script from just like, from good

16:26

to great. Cause that is so knowing. Like,

16:28

and it just made me laugh so much.

16:30

I was like, oh my God. And I

16:32

never remembered that response whatsoever. And there were so

16:34

many lines in it where I was like, oh my

16:36

God, like, And I've had it

16:39

stuck in my head in some way, like

16:41

when Kat says to Bianca, like, well, should I

16:43

be from planet? Look at me, look at

16:45

me. Better than me from planet

16:47

loser. It

16:49

is also like, it's perfect of that time,

16:52

that type of language. So I guess Clueless

16:54

does a similar thing where it really captures,

16:56

like I wonder what the Gen Z equivalent would be. Like

16:58

it would be the walking around being like, not me

17:00

looking in the mirror. Yeah. And that

17:03

is completely repellent to me whenever I

17:05

see that in like a Netflix rom -com

17:07

for kids, for teenagers. But

17:09

like the language in this movie I'm obsessed

17:11

with, because I remember when Juno came

17:13

out and there was such fuss around

17:15

Diablo Cody, but Diablo Cody is amazing

17:17

because she basically created this

17:19

lexicon of teenagers that is just her own,

17:21

you know? Yes. Well, Gilmore Girls, I think,

17:23

did something similar with such a playfulness and

17:26

a love of language. And a love referencing.

17:28

writing and the quickness of it. Yeah. But

17:30

we hadn't really seen, you know, and the

17:32

pace has never dropped in like that. I

17:35

mean, same with Juno, same with this. Yes.

17:37

And there's like a musicality to how they're writing

17:39

dialogue and how they're referencing things. But I

17:41

think it's great because like, I think something

17:43

similar, but more subtle is happening, in terms

17:45

of how about you, because they're, they're sort

17:47

of using MTV. language of like, oh, the

17:49

planet loser. Then it's contrasted with this

17:51

really hybrid language. Yes. The

17:54

school guidance counsellor who's writing the

17:56

romance novel and is looking for

17:58

different words for like a hard

18:00

dick, basically. So she's thinking like

18:02

turgid. Or like Chumesson. Chumesson. I

18:05

didn't know that word. I had

18:07

to look Chumesson up from watching

18:09

that film. Or like even

18:11

the kind of stupid characters are

18:13

like... Joey is like, oh, come

18:15

on, we're all congregating over here. Or

18:18

like the moments where their people

18:20

are directly referencing Shakespeare, where

18:22

Cameron's like, oh, I pine, I perish, you

18:25

know? I have to say, that's probably

18:27

one of the only moments of the film where

18:29

I do, it like makes my skin warm. know,

18:31

I know. It is great.

18:33

And it really takes the sort of the

18:35

charisma of a young Joseph Gordon Levitt.

18:37

Yes, it really does. It's one of the very

18:39

few moments where they look directly at the

18:41

Shakespeare and it does not look short. I

18:43

mean, it works now and then I think

18:45

it feels so camp. You're

18:48

right. He's like, I

18:50

burn, I pine, I perish, and no

18:52

one flinges. Everyone acts like that's

18:54

a completely normal statement from a teenage boy.

18:57

His friend is like, sure you

18:59

do. Yeah, I get it. And

19:02

then, like, he bled, she was like, what is it with

19:04

this chick? Has she got beer -flavored nipples? It's

19:07

just like, yeah, this beautiful marrying

19:09

of, like, the tone of, like,

19:11

sort of very MTV, very

19:13

kind of 90s, very irreverent,

19:15

and then also this sort

19:17

of... highfalutin child. I

19:20

think there's something like that for me

19:22

is something that's very specifically, it's

19:24

attractive for me as a woman, because I think

19:26

it's something that women do all the time,

19:28

which is this mixture of, I mean, like, for

19:30

example, like Pandora and Dolly's podcast, like High

19:32

Low, like that's what they picked up on in

19:34

such an amazing way, which is like, we

19:36

occupy both spaces a lot of the time. So

19:38

even like, I'm here promoting a literary novel

19:40

that I wrote, but the thing I'm thinking about

19:42

in the morning is like, what color if

19:44

I should wear like blue eyeshadow? Because I'm doing

19:46

a blue. this door, or if I should

19:48

go like, golden sparkly. And

19:51

I'm occupying both spaces constantly, like

19:53

that mix of, you know, high

19:55

brown, low brown and thinking about

19:57

things that can be easily disparaged

20:00

or dismissed, which is like the color of

20:02

my nails or, you know, whether or

20:04

not I should, you know, dice an air

20:06

wrap my hair today, which takes a

20:08

lot of time and thought. And then I'm

20:10

also thinking about, you know, like whether or

20:12

not my book is a Sunday Times bestseller, which I would say it's like

20:14

a high brown. I

20:16

think it's so, you're so right.

20:19

And it's, it's something Helen Fielding

20:21

actually said recently when she was

20:23

promoting the new Bridget Jones

20:25

movie, Mad About the Boy, where she was

20:27

saying like the reason, like people misunderstand

20:29

Bridget Jones by thinking that it's all

20:31

about Bridget, like falling on her arse.

20:33

But that actually going on with Bridget,

20:35

the reason that she gets into these

20:37

situations that are completely bizarre, but totally

20:40

understandable is because she's reaching for something

20:42

higher all the time. Like she wouldn't

20:44

get into, she wouldn't get into. the

20:46

situation with the blue soup, if she wasn't

20:48

like reaching to make a gourmet meal

20:50

kind of thing. And it's this thing. And

20:52

like she's like, yeah, women can multitask and we all

20:54

know women can multitask, but they can also set kitchens

20:56

on fire because they're multitasking. Yes, exactly. And

20:58

there's something about the tension between that. That's

21:00

for me, it's very like James Joyce used to

21:02

say he was always trying to write between

21:04

the comic and the cosmic. So when he was

21:07

writing Ulysses, you know, he wanted to have

21:09

these, you know, obviously this is amazing sort of

21:11

in a monologues about like the literal meaning

21:13

of life, but he would also then like. you

21:15

know, the character would then be thinking about

21:17

like whether or not he would take a shit

21:19

that day, you know? Or James versus fart

21:21

letters, do you mean? He was extremely lavatorial. That's

21:26

such an important part of art and it's so easily

21:28

dismissed. It's actually very difficult to occupy

21:30

both spaces and to move seamlessly between

21:32

the two, like the gravity and the

21:34

levity. And so a really

21:37

good romantic comedy, that's what it

21:39

does so well. And that's why when you

21:41

watch a bad romantic comedy, it's because it's usually

21:43

only in the levity space. They haven't found

21:45

the way to bring the gravity into it. They

21:48

don't have the pathos in depth because they

21:50

think that's not part of the genre, but it

21:52

is because the genre is all about contrast. Music

21:55

to my ears here. I'm loving this. But

21:58

like, I think that's, you're so fucking

22:00

bang on. And I think that's

22:02

why, um, often when people are like

22:04

talking about movies like this or like Clueless or whatever,

22:06

like, oh, do you know it's based on Emma? Like,

22:08

do you know it's based on, uh, The Timing

22:10

of the Shrew? It's like, yeah, like

22:12

that's not weird. Like

22:15

these things are, should always

22:17

be in conversation. And

22:19

that is what makes them good is that

22:21

they are trusting a teen audience with like, serious

22:24

traditional dramatic structures, you know? Yeah, absolutely.

22:26

I mean, Shakespeare himself, it's like he was

22:28

writing comedy, he was writing tragedy that

22:30

existed within one author. You know, that was

22:32

sort of the point is that they're

22:34

not separate entities. Like we have both inside

22:36

of us all the time and every

22:38

tragedy has an element of comedy and every

22:40

comedy has an element of tragedy. They

22:42

have to. Yeah. And like the tragedy in

22:44

10 Things I Head About You is

22:46

like very finely sewn in. Like the, first

22:48

of all, is that like these, these

22:50

girls are motherless. Yes. mother

22:53

has chosen not to be with them. And

22:55

you can see that they have like developed in,

22:57

in sort of response to that. It happened

22:59

like two or three years ago, seemingly. And

23:01

around the same time, um,

23:04

as we find out quite late in the

23:06

movie, cash was going out with Joey, who's

23:08

currently pursuing Bianca. She lost

23:10

her virginity to him and decided

23:12

that she didn't, it wasn't for her

23:14

and she wasn't ready and she didn't like it.

23:16

And she told him she didn't want to do it

23:18

anymore and then was completely ostracized by him. And

23:20

like, that's such a A

23:23

tragic and common story, and it's just sitting

23:25

right there in the middle of this charming

23:27

romance. Exactly. And it's dealt with it with

23:29

a very light hand, I think. Yeah. But

23:31

I mean, so many girls watching that will

23:33

relate to that experience of having had a

23:35

sexual experience in your teenage years or at

23:37

any point in your life that you didn't

23:39

fully want, you know, feeling pushed into it.

23:41

And Kat's response, which is both sort of

23:43

healthy and unhealthy, even though I hate to

23:45

use those terms, it's almost like is to

23:47

the amazing thing that came out of it

23:49

is that she made the decision to never

23:51

do anything because someone else expected it of

23:53

her. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's

23:56

great learning. But you're going

23:58

to take any learning from your statutory rate.

24:00

Exactly. But on

24:02

the other hand, what it's done is

24:04

cut her off from potential connection and

24:06

loving, you know, reciprocal relationships. So it's

24:08

taken a little bit too far in

24:10

that case, which is also understandable. You

24:13

know, that's part of adolescence is you're

24:15

learning out, you're learning your own boundaries,

24:17

but it's an amazing response to me.

24:19

And it's, and when it gets revealed,

24:21

I think it does that perfect thing

24:23

where it feels surprising but also inevitable

24:25

when you're like oh yes like that

24:27

makes total sense like that is what

24:29

has been happening unconsciously and on some

24:32

level you probably knew it but you

24:34

didn't know that you knew it yeah

24:36

yeah and I love how it's like

24:38

It's such a surprising one because she

24:40

she's so tender with her sister when

24:42

she's telling her all that. And then

24:44

Bianca doesn't react very nicely. No, she's

24:46

just like, well, and actually, you know

24:48

what? Fucking fair enough because I think

24:51

Bianca is a character that has like, she

24:53

is made fun of throughout the film

24:55

for being shallow and myopic and like,

24:57

and she is, but she also has

24:59

a real steeliness to her and a

25:01

bullishness to her where she's like, well,

25:04

you saw me. being pursued

25:06

and pursuing Joey this whole time and you didn't

25:08

say that he's a dirtbag and she's like, well,

25:10

I wanted you to make your own decisions. She's

25:12

like, yeah, but you were also curtailing me from

25:14

making any decisions. So you just kind of kept

25:16

me in the dark and it like treating me

25:18

like a baby, which is the both the last

25:20

thing and the first thing all babies want. I

25:23

mean, she is described as deep at

25:25

the beginning of the film because it

25:27

is the segue into I think the

25:29

other most famous and incredible line, which

25:31

is I like my sketches, but I

25:33

love my Prada backpack. And then her

25:35

friend says, but I love my sketches.

25:38

Because you don't have a product bag

25:40

bag. No

25:42

wonder Gabrielle Union like turns against her

25:44

in the end. I know shit

25:46

like that. I

25:49

know Gabrielle Union's character has done dirty in

25:51

this film. That's something I think that doesn't age

25:53

well. It's like, I would love for her

25:55

to have had a more, she is just like

25:58

a very, she's a very small best friend

26:00

role. And then she's the sort of anti, she's

26:02

sort of the villain role, which is a

26:04

shame to be honest, because the other female characters

26:06

in the film, I think are allowed to

26:08

get, get a lot more three -dimensionality than she

26:10

does. Yes. Even Kat's best friend, the Shakespeare girl.

26:13

She gets a happy ending. She gets an

26:15

ending. Also, she's

26:17

so beautiful. Oh, yeah. Who is

26:19

that actor? She's in center stage. She's

26:21

the ballerina in center stage. She's like amazing

26:23

at ballet, but actually hates that it wants to

26:25

be a doctor. Another movie that has requested

26:27

a lot on this podcast, and I've never seen. Oh my

26:29

God. So if you ever want to come back and you send

26:31

a stage. I would love to do. I mean, I'd also

26:33

actually like to do save the last dance. We've done this. Oh

26:35

my God. I can't believe

26:37

I missed that one because that is how

26:40

Julia Stiles got the role in save the

26:42

last dance. is crazy to me. dance scene.

26:44

I know. And this is a fact I

26:46

love about this film is that the director

26:48

was dating poor. Abdullah Abdul at the time.

26:50

And he said to Julia Stiles, like, for

26:52

that dance scene at the party, you know,

26:54

I can bring my girlfriend and she can

26:57

choreograph you. And Julia was like, nah, I'm

26:59

good. And the director was like, are you

27:01

sure? Julia was like, no, I'm a really

27:03

good dancer. And honestly, she is. That dance

27:05

scene is so like, insucient and cool and

27:07

fluid. Like, I think she looks amazing. And

27:10

then because of that dance scene, she

27:12

was cast in Save the Last Dance where

27:14

she is so wooden and not a

27:16

good dancer. But

27:18

the thing is, you're so right that

27:20

that dance scene, a table dance scene,

27:23

it remains a confusing scene. And it's

27:25

really good because it's confusing, because it's

27:27

like this unexpected thing from this character

27:29

that no one was, no one even

27:31

expected her to be there. And now

27:33

she's doing this mad dance. You're

27:35

right. It is both mental and

27:37

like. So cool. Yes.

27:40

And what I hated, well, what I love about

27:42

it is that in that moment, it's like, it's

27:45

always both. It's Anne -Anne. Like, it's sort

27:47

of an empowering, cool moment for her because

27:49

she's sort of like taking some stage and

27:51

like, she's free and it's also, you know,

27:53

she's drunk and she ends up sort of

27:55

falling off the table. And then later on,

27:57

Joey says, like, we love the lap dance

27:59

or the table and she's been, you know,

28:01

he's sexualized. How much do we owe you

28:03

the table dance? Yeah, exactly. So he like

28:05

disparages her. And actually, like, that's not, when

28:07

I look at that dance, Like I don't

28:09

see someone, not that there's anything wrong with

28:11

doing like a lap dance, but I don't

28:13

see it that way. Like it's actually for

28:15

me, not very sexual at all. It's just,

28:17

it's like, it's just a girl having fun

28:19

like in that moment. It is also the

28:21

worst possible thing that I happen to you

28:23

in your human life is if you, if

28:26

you are at the club or at the

28:28

pub or at the party and you're, you're

28:30

just having a dance and you're really feeling

28:32

it. And then anybody makes any comment about

28:34

how much you're feeling it. Fucking

28:37

send those people to the Hague. That's

28:39

not allowed. Never comment quality. Never call attention.

28:41

Never, ever. Well, it's a bit like, I

28:43

mean, this is a complete segue, but in

28:45

normal people, one of the things I loved

28:47

is when Marianne gets dressed up and one

28:50

of the things that her mother says and

28:52

then her sort of, you know, this mean

28:54

girl at school says, it's like, oh, you've

28:56

made an effort. And it's that

28:58

shaming of like, either really enjoying

29:00

something or trying hard in any way,

29:02

like immediately being cut down. It's

29:04

awful. one of my favourite parts of

29:06

Circular Friends by Maeve Bin, which

29:08

is one of my favourite books ever,

29:10

is the main character, Benny. She has a date

29:12

on the Friday, and she wants to wear

29:14

something in her hair on the Friday. So,

29:17

for the days leading up to it, she

29:19

starts introducing that she wears stuff in her

29:21

hair, because the worst thing she could imagine

29:23

is someone saying to her on the Friday,

29:25

like, that's new. You don't normally do that.

29:28

And that kind of self -consciousness, which I

29:30

think exists in all of us, all

29:32

our lives to some degree, for me

29:34

is also very teenage. You know, that's

29:37

a real... like when you're a teenager,

29:39

it's that simultaneity of feeling completely invisible

29:41

and also way too visible. And I

29:43

think both the sisters navigate that all

29:45

the time with wanting to be free

29:47

and unnoticed and just sort of allowed

29:49

to do what they want and also

29:51

wanting attention and wanting to be admired,

29:54

which I think any girl understands and

29:56

the danger of it. I remember that

29:58

feeling growing up of wanting attention as

30:00

anyone would wanting to be desired or

30:02

to be admired in any way. but

30:04

also knowing that it would be dangerous.

30:07

Dangerous because they could put you at the

30:09

attention of the wrong kind of boy or

30:11

man. And also dangerous because it could attract

30:13

the envy of other girls. And

30:15

I think that this film, that is

30:17

sort of a through line through all

30:19

of this, which is the jealousy between

30:21

the sisters and the competitiveness that also

30:23

at the same time can turn at

30:25

any point to complete acceptance of one

30:27

another and how they both exist in

30:29

the relationship. I mean, the

30:31

director of this film is, I should have looked it

30:34

up. It's written by women. Yes. Directed

30:36

by a man, but it's written by

30:38

women. Yeah. I actually listened to a great

30:40

podcast with those two women talking about

30:42

how they wrote this movie. And it just

30:44

made, it almost made me cry. I

30:46

was so moved, but I just love every,

30:49

any story about women creating stuff together.

30:51

Like we are, at this point now, we

30:53

are awash with like great female auteurs,

30:55

like Greta Gerwig and female producers, like Margot

30:57

Robbie and all, like all these great

30:59

women who are making great stuff. But what

31:01

I am. So... far hungrier for representation

31:03

is female partnerships, female artistic partnerships where they

31:05

make stuff together. And so these two

31:07

women are best friends and they talk about

31:09

how they just took a week in

31:11

Mexico and they wrote on the beach and

31:14

they just had a bucket of coronas

31:16

between them and they wrote the long movie.

31:18

But you can that. That's so romantic

31:20

to me. Oh my God, because I think

31:22

this is such a great example of,

31:24

I remember being taught in school that there

31:26

was competitive dialogue and it's competitive and

31:28

then there's collaborative dialogue and competitive dialogue is

31:30

traditionally quite. male, which is like a

31:32

one -upmanship of the way, like a

31:34

collaborative dialogue. For me, the best example always is

31:36

Sex and the City, which is the four top

31:38

table of how they build together. They build a

31:41

joke one by one, like with Jenga blocks. And

31:43

this film, like even the fact that that

31:45

line, like I think you can in Europe,

31:47

like there's always an extra turn of dialogue.

31:49

It just tightens the screws to make it

31:51

just that little bit funnier and sharper. And

31:54

that's collaborative dialogue where it just keeps it

31:56

builds and builds and builds between multiple people.

31:58

And that's like, you This hearing that it's

32:00

two women makes total sense to me, because

32:02

you can feel it in the craft. You're

32:04

so right. And if you compare this to

32:06

something like an American pie, it's always about

32:08

like, and those movies have a value of

32:10

their own, but like, it's always about who's

32:12

the funniest line in the scene. like,

32:15

you know, whatever. And that has its own pleasure totally.

32:17

Like that. It's like, you know, and that, I

32:19

think it's from like, and you remember MTV where they

32:21

had that show where it was like, your mama,

32:23

whatever. It's

32:28

sort of like language as war,

32:30

you know? For me,

32:32

this is like language as love, you know?

32:34

You're right. It's building and building all the

32:36

time. What I found so...

32:38

What I was writing in my notes as

32:40

I was watching this is that the dialogue

32:42

is long, but the scenes are short. The

32:44

scenes are unbelievably short. Like you are moving

32:46

on to the next thing so quickly, but

32:48

at the same time, the dialogue never lets

32:50

up. It's like a very... It's

32:52

what makes it unbelievably watchable from like a technical

32:54

point of view. It also allows the dialogue

32:56

to sing like... know, from writing, like if you

32:59

have a really good line, you always try

33:01

to put a beginning or the end of a

33:03

paragraph or even have it stand alone on

33:05

the page so it can really like sing and

33:07

have some air around it to vibrate. You

33:09

know, it has a moment where it's allowed to

33:11

echo and that short, sharp scene work means

33:13

that they're constantly having these like great sort of

33:15

punchlines that then you can move on to

33:18

the next thing and it like shimmers for a

33:20

moment at that time. Yeah, you're totally right.

33:22

Yes. Um, you know, I just realized

33:24

that we've been talking for like 40 minutes and

33:26

we haven't even mentioned. I know, I know. And

33:28

I have so many thoughts. I mean, that it's

33:30

so, cause there's, watching the film, when we were

33:32

talking about, there's an element of tragedy in the

33:34

center of this, in the comedy. And then of

33:36

course now watching that film with the context knowing.

33:40

And it was his first, I think like big

33:42

American role. And I think he

33:44

was young. And I remember the director, they

33:46

couldn't find for a long time. Like they

33:48

couldn't find the person to play that role.

33:50

And when Heath Ledger walked in, the director

33:52

said, as long as this guy speaks English,

33:54

she's been cast. Like he had that kind

33:57

of career. that is so palpable and that

33:59

sort of beauty that is so immediately arresting.

34:01

And then when he spoke, he had an

34:03

Australian accent and the team had said, well,

34:05

should we get a dialect coach so that

34:07

he can sound American? And the director had

34:09

said, no, like, he's perfect. Everything about him

34:11

is perfect. Why change anything about him? And

34:14

it is random that he is Australian. And

34:16

I don't think that they, do they even

34:18

ever really it? They do, they Yeah,

34:20

they, the one there, I'm confronting

34:23

the kind of... Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's true.

34:25

Yeah, Kat says the accent and then he is

34:27

like, wait, really? I lived in Australia till I

34:29

was 10. Oh yeah, that's true. They do. And

34:31

it's like, and it's that that's definitely done. And

34:33

also the truth is like, people, not everyone American

34:35

goes to, you know, people do move countries. I

34:38

moved to America in high school, you know,

34:40

I had an English accent. But

34:42

like, I think what's, what's so

34:44

important about his Australian is, is that

34:46

otherwise, like the character written down,

34:48

it makes complete sense that they go,

34:51

found it really hard to cast

34:53

because it, the characters really. kind of

34:55

nothing. Do you know I mean?

34:57

Like like, he's a bad boy, but

34:59

the things that make him bad

35:01

are really weird. Like he flashes the

35:04

cafeteria workers. Which actually is horrible.

35:06

But it horrible. No, but he

35:08

doesn't. It was actually, I was a bratwurst sausage.

35:11

Right. And

35:13

then the school counselor says he like

35:16

a bratwurst. Like, aren't we optimistic? And I

35:18

never got that joke for so long.

35:20

But then she ends up putting it in

35:22

her romance novel. Oh my

35:24

god, the fucking Alison Janie is

35:26

the guidance counselor. The whole casting

35:28

is incredible. All the casting is amazing,

35:30

but it always really annoys me

35:32

when I'm on this podcast and like,

35:34

don't mention someone's full name and

35:36

people get really ratty. Anyone

35:39

who does that, take a fucking chill pill. It's

35:42

Alison Janie. I know it's Alison Janie.

35:46

And she is so good at that role.

35:48

Again, it's like these tiny little character

35:50

parts that are given. I mean, the fact

35:52

that she's writing her romance novel, like,

35:54

and she's so, um, when like cat

35:56

comes in and she's got her cat mug.

35:58

And then she's like, people would describe

36:00

you as a cat. What I can't remember

36:02

what cat uses is the word. She's

36:04

like, um, you know, opinionated or whatever. And

36:07

then, um, the guidance counselor says,

36:09

heinous bitch. So try

36:11

not to do that anymore. It's

36:14

not weird. How freak. The word

36:16

heinous was used in the 90s.

36:18

I know it's satisfying. It

36:20

really is odd. I

36:22

think a real 90s phrase, even

36:25

though it's like a very classical

36:27

reference. Yeah. And like barf. Like

36:29

that was actually called be said

36:31

with an English accent. It was

36:33

like barf. I'm

36:36

so right. Okay, but then

36:38

back to Heath Ledger. Yeah. And

36:40

so, okay. So the character, yeah, his sort

36:42

of first introduction is that like he, well,

36:44

put a bratwurst through his pants or something.

36:46

Yes. Which is weird. smokes. He smokes and

36:49

he's like, puts a fang out on that.

36:51

Or a frog. A

36:53

dead frog. These are not dreamy

36:55

bad boy traits all. They're actually creepy

36:57

psychopath traits. He puts a drill

36:59

through Cameron's book when he tries to

37:01

talk to him. No, no. He's

37:03

giving murder. Yeah. And it's also

37:05

never clear why he's mean. It's very

37:07

clear why Kat and Bianca are the

37:09

way they are. But with Patrick, you're

37:12

just like, he's just... A freak? Like,

37:14

I'm kind of mean. And I also

37:16

think it's that thing of transferring schools

37:18

and being an outsider. And if you're

37:20

going to be ostracized anyway, which, you

37:22

know, we don't know is part of

37:24

his backstory, but it's sort of like,

37:26

well, then I'm going to deliberately separate

37:28

myself and reject everything around me. And

37:31

so that's sort of his thing. It's

37:33

sort of like the kind of two lines

37:35

of dialogue that there are two bits of

37:37

exposition we have in terms of this character,

37:39

here's who he is, is that he lived

37:41

in Australia until he was 11 and he

37:43

spent a year looking after his granddad. and

37:46

like sitting like living on his couch and

37:48

eating spaghetti or whatever. So it's

37:50

sort of like, and that those two lines

37:52

just don't amount to much plus the performance.

37:54

They kind of amount to somebody who feels

37:56

like they've been dragged from pillar to post

37:58

a bit. They've been like, maybe parents not

38:00

together, maybe shifted from this country to the

38:02

other. Oh, you're staying with your granddad for

38:04

a while. Like who's, who's like a teenager

38:06

and looking after their granddad and also doesn't

38:08

have his own room. You know, like there's

38:11

something really kind of sad and isolating about

38:13

that whole vibe and he brings it to

38:15

the character. And I think the Australianness really

38:17

helps because it gives him a sense of

38:19

an otherness and like, unfigure outability, you know?

38:21

And he also has this feeling, I think

38:23

of being sort of outside of time as

38:25

a character. Like, I mean, obviously,

38:27

like the most amazing scene, I think, is

38:29

when he does the song for Cat, you

38:31

know, when he has to sacrifice himself on

38:33

the altar of dignity, as they describe it.

38:35

And the song, I mean, that song choice

38:38

for me is so telling. And perhaps it

38:40

links in some way to the grandfather that

38:42

he actually has sort of been... in a

38:44

different time, like that that's the song he

38:46

chooses. You know, you're just too

38:48

good to be true. And so, and

38:50

the way he does it is a

38:52

sort of Fred Astaire style, you know, and

38:54

it has this kind of almost silent

38:56

movie -era physical comedy to it. And there's

38:58

something for me that's so sweet about that,

39:00

because Kat is also a character that

39:02

sort of lives outside of her own time.

39:04

You know, she's reading Sylvia Plath and

39:06

The Feminist Mystique. And they're both characters that

39:09

are sort of, they're very much, you

39:11

know, this film is very of its time

39:13

in some ways, but both of them

39:15

are a little. But, like, they're sort of

39:17

old souls that find each other. Yes.

39:19

And what's so lovely is that they're both

39:21

kind of countercultural. And something I love

39:23

about the representation of culture and counterculture in

39:25

this movie is that how... you know,

39:27

there are so many like subcultures and movements

39:29

and I mean, you could argue there

39:31

are both too many subcultures right now and

39:33

none at all because it's like, oh,

39:35

this week on tiktok, it's ballet core or

39:38

this week it's mob wife. But like,

39:40

you know, this movie is based in Seattle

39:42

and it's very much working with the

39:44

kind of alternative riot girl movement, like they

39:46

name check bands in a way that

39:48

movies rarely name check bands like this because

39:50

it dates the movie. And like she

39:52

references the raincoats and bikini kill, like these

39:54

bands that are still considered very iconic

39:56

as part of a movement that even then

39:58

wasn't being covered all that much. The

40:00

most of the regular punter would have known

40:02

about that whole scene would have been

40:04

Courtney Love. And then only because it is

40:07

Kurt Cobain's wife. These

40:09

are not mainstream... cultural sort of touch

40:11

points, but the film uses them with the

40:13

cut, with the kind of confidence that

40:15

like, oh, this is going to be a

40:17

big deal in 20 years. And like,

40:19

people still, you know, fucking Kathleen,

40:21

whatever her name is, you're

40:23

one from Bikini Kill. Oh, yes.

40:26

She is a book out like this month talking about... Does

40:28

she? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Riot

40:30

Girl, it's called. And so

40:32

the leaders from that era that

40:34

Cat Stratford was a part of are

40:36

now considered really important icons, but

40:38

the movie knew that then, if you

40:40

know what I mean? Yeah, I

40:42

mean, there's something very prescient about the

40:44

whole film, like one, including those

40:46

bands, two, just who they cost, pretty

40:48

much everyone in that film. went

40:50

on, actually the actress that plays Bianca,

40:52

I'm not sure what she's doing

40:54

now, but a huge swathe of those

40:56

actors, both from the small character

40:58

actors to the leads, are now doing

41:00

amazing things that obviously he's led

41:02

you before he died, became one of

41:04

the most famous and beloved actors

41:06

of all time. And so,

41:08

I mean, there's something about that film, like, there's

41:11

a kind of magic that happens. just everyone's instinct

41:13

was just correct. Yeah, exactly. were correct to reference

41:15

the culture that they chose to reference. They were

41:17

correct to cast the people. They were

41:19

like, everything is just like, they just got

41:21

it, you know? But it wasn't, I mean,

41:23

like it's said in Seattle, not LA, for

41:25

example. And that was pro, you know, like

41:27

90210, like all the big teen shows were

41:29

in LA for a long time. So it's

41:31

like, it's slightly off. It is counter in

41:33

some way. And yet it's like, it's like

41:35

the skipper to the Barbie of the industry.

41:38

but Skipper became Barbie. Because this

41:40

film, I would say, is

41:42

now considered like true, true canon. But I feel

41:44

like at the time it was a little bit

41:46

of like a, it was a sort of off

41:48

brand. Like I had read that originally when they

41:50

made the film, they had wanted to cast a

41:52

lot of the people from Dawson's Creek because none

41:54

of the actors they ended up casting were known.

41:56

Every single one of them is an engineer and

41:58

it's one of their first roles. So it did,

42:00

it was, it does have a feeling of like

42:02

the little film that could a little bit. the

42:05

dance dialogue when he's like, you're sleeping

42:07

each other's beds like those Dawson's Creek kids.

42:11

I feel like there are a lot

42:13

of in jokes in the film, like

42:15

little nods between the writers. I feel

42:17

very improvised, don't they? But

42:19

the thing is, I know that scene

42:21

of. He led you're thinking you're

42:24

just too good to be true on the

42:26

bleachers. And you're right. It is, it is like

42:28

an old style crooner, but then he's sort

42:30

of like running around with the security guards and

42:32

like slapping on the ass and stuff. And

42:34

it's such an amazing scene. It's so iconic.

42:36

But to me, the scene that like I fancy

42:38

him the most in is when he goes

42:41

to the gig and he watches cat dance. Oh,

42:43

I know. And you see lot that dancing.

42:45

You see a lot of her dancing, but like,

42:47

like you just sort of see him melt

42:49

a bit. And I think there's something that's

42:51

really gets the heart of so much female fantasy

42:53

of like. a man witnessing you when you

42:55

don't know you're being witnessed because so much of

42:57

our performance, you know, is of our gender. has

43:00

been coached into us. Whether or not we say

43:02

what reasons we're doing it for, there's a part

43:04

of us that's been coached to please men. And

43:06

so the idea that she's in this female space,

43:08

like listening to this young girl band and just

43:11

having fun with her friend and like a guy

43:13

is watching her and she doesn't know. And she's

43:15

fabulous, you know. And there's actually, there are so

43:17

many things I want to say about that. I

43:19

was actually telling my husband about the experience of

43:21

being a teenage girl recently. I was saying like

43:23

one of the only things I had as a

43:25

teenage girl was trying to be pretty because what

43:27

I did as a teenager was that we would

43:29

go all the girls would go and watch the

43:31

boys, either play football or band. And the boys

43:33

didn't watch us do anything. So the only thing,

43:36

because you were so passive, the only thing you

43:38

had was sort of peacocking. I remember that phase

43:40

of life so much. And yeah, you had no

43:42

skills. It didn't matter if you were in a

43:44

band or you played football, it was because no

43:46

boy was going to watch you do it. So

43:48

it didn't matter in terms of mating, in terms

43:51

like trying to attract a boyfriend or

43:53

a partner or anyone. And so

43:55

that feeling of passivity that was such

43:57

a big part of Adelaide lessons

43:59

for me. in this film because he

44:01

watches her when she's watching the

44:03

band. And then there's an amazing, very

44:05

quiet, tender scene where she's practicing

44:07

guitar and there's that incredible Joan Arma

44:09

trading song in the background. Because

44:11

I mean, the soundtrack of this film

44:13

is incredible. But that

44:15

song is so, I mean, I love that song.

44:17

So what is it called? The

44:20

Weakness Me? The Weakness in Me, which is

44:22

actually about having an affair. But that song is

44:24

in the background and he kind of comes

44:26

up behind her. She's playing the guitar and then

44:28

he changes his mind and he retreats. But

44:30

she sort of feels him there. But in every

44:32

single scene, she's active. She's playing the guitar.

44:34

She's playing football. She's in the playing football.

44:36

She's in the bookstore, picking out a book. She's in the

44:38

car and then backs it into Joey's car. You

44:40

know, it's like even to see a girl

44:42

or a woman driving and not always have

44:44

the boys driving, you know, she

44:46

has the cool vintage car, not the guy.

44:48

Yeah, you're so right. I just loved all

44:50

of that. And it doesn't emasculate him in

44:53

any way to be the watcher or

44:55

to be the admirer. It's actually, it's

44:57

part of the love language between

44:59

them is so, but you need

45:01

a actor that has that kind

45:03

of intense masculinity built into him.

45:05

Like I remember, oh, Emily

45:07

Nassbaum, - I love her, the film critic

45:10

at the NLT, yeah. She describes an

45:12

actor as having so much sexual gravity,

45:14

he could be his own planet. And

45:16

for me, that is he led her. Like

45:18

he has a sexual gravity that is

45:20

like its own force. You're

45:23

so right in the

45:25

way his performance of... masculinity

45:27

is so assured. The

45:29

one line dialogue that never sits right with me

45:31

is the one he's like, he kind of makes

45:33

fun of sort of the riot girl bands or

45:35

like, I'm going to listen to some chicks who

45:37

can't play their instruments. And then we know he

45:39

doesn't think that because he's like friends with one

45:41

of the fans. So I never loved that line.

45:43

But there are a couple of moments, like Cameron

45:46

kind of nags Bianca and that's when she ends

45:48

up kissing him. And actually it was, it kind

45:50

of sort of rubbed me the wrong way when

45:52

I rewatched it because he's sort of being mean

45:54

to her. He's like, know, I'm

45:56

glad he's being mean to her though, because she needs someone

45:58

to be mean to her. But

46:02

there's something that like you said just

46:04

there about the Heath Ledger's kind of

46:06

power and something I remember reading in

46:08

a Michelle Williams interview years after he

46:10

died, which is like, oh, just the

46:12

idea of her like raising their daughter

46:14

alone is just so moving to me.

46:16

And I really, I really, I think

46:18

we all feel for Michelle Williams in

46:20

a very special way because we know

46:22

what she's been through, but she

46:24

talks about how she talks about how She

46:27

kept her hair short for years because of

46:29

the one man she knew who said he

46:31

preferred it on women. And there's something about

46:33

that. You know how men are just obsessed

46:35

with fucking long hair and like... Yeah, I

46:37

do. I mean, I grew my hair long

46:39

when I was 14 and that's when I

46:41

first got a boyfriend. I mean, I also

46:43

like having long hair and I do it

46:45

for me. But I also on some level,

46:47

I'm like, that's... We all dream for a

46:49

pixie couple. We're all afraid what the men

46:52

in our lives will say. And

46:54

there's something that's both perfectly Heath

46:56

Ledger. And Patrick Verona then diagrammed in

46:58

that sort of little factoid that

47:00

he loved Michelle Williams' short hair. I

47:04

think like the shadow

47:06

of addiction in Heath Ledger's

47:08

life and that feeling

47:10

that somehow like beauty... talent,

47:13

to be so special that it has

47:15

to come with a price somehow. And

47:17

I don't know if I necessarily believe

47:19

that's true, but he is an example of

47:21

someone where it feels like an example,

47:23

like evidence of that. Like, there

47:25

was something about him that was

47:28

so, how many people get to

47:30

be that undeniable, you know, undeniable

47:32

to everyone? Like, is there anyone

47:34

that doesn't think Heath Ledger is

47:36

just absolutely dreamy or talented or,

47:38

you know, just profound in some

47:40

way? That's such

47:42

an excellent way of putting it,

47:45

profound in some way. And the

47:47

thing is, I remember when he

47:49

died and I... people found him

47:51

profound. Even this is not

47:53

like a shadow that we have added

47:55

with his death. Like people were

47:57

obsessed with him before this. In

48:00

a way that fell deeper than like an

48:02

ordinary heartthrob thing. Like people were just so invested.

48:04

And like when he did that turn in

48:06

the Joker that was so unexpected or in the

48:08

dark night where he played the Joker, it

48:10

was so unexpected, but it was so inhabited. Like

48:13

he's just so watchable in everything he

48:15

does. And there's he has that thing

48:17

that Julia Roberts has where you feel

48:19

like they are both inhabiting the character

48:21

100%, but you also feel like you

48:23

can see their true essence behind their

48:25

eyes. And you feel like it's connecting

48:27

with you. I mean,

48:29

and in Brokeback Mountain, like the choices

48:31

he made as an actor were really

48:34

incredible. You know, like that was a

48:36

film that many, many actors just wouldn't

48:38

touch because there was so much rampant

48:40

homophobia with like so many male actors

48:42

were still afraid to play a gay

48:44

role. And he again, it's that sort

48:46

of undeniable masculinity. which of course you

48:48

can be extremely masculine and gay. That's

48:50

a complete fallacy that you can't. But

48:52

the confidence that he had to just

48:54

sort of take any role and this

48:56

role intending to say it about you,

48:58

like there would be a way to

49:00

play it with another actor that actually, that

49:02

didn't have a tool, any of that

49:04

sort of like the depth or the humor

49:06

or the, what he brings to

49:08

it, I don't know. It's just, as you were saying,

49:11

there's not actually that much on the page. not

49:14

a great character. No, it's really not. Like, I

49:16

don't think like cats... character, like Julia Stahl said,

49:18

I read that character and I knew I had

49:20

to play her. You know, I was so excited.

49:22

That makes sense to me. His character,

49:24

yeah, not so much. As you say, he's the

49:26

watcher. Like he spends a great deal of the

49:28

movie just observing her. And that's not a role

49:30

that many men jump at really. And he does

49:32

something kind of shitty, you know, it's like he

49:34

dates her for money and they don't have a

49:36

huge amount of time at the end of the

49:38

film to undo that. You know, it's only in

49:40

the last, like she finds out in the last

49:43

10 minutes of the film, it's quite tricky actually,

49:45

because that is really fucked up to find out. her

49:47

greatest fear is being also his motives

49:49

are never made clear as to why he

49:51

goes along with it for so long.

49:54

Well, here's actually the thing I was thinking

49:56

when I was watching it is there's

49:58

quite a subtle class narrative happening in the

50:00

film, which is that his motives are

50:02

money. And it's never made explicit that he

50:04

needs the money, but he obviously can't

50:06

resist it. And Joey is

50:08

wealthy and the sisters are wealthy. And

50:11

it seems like this is such a,

50:13

Seattle is the most sanitized, gorgeous version

50:15

of it. literally just like sunshine and

50:17

where are the Seattle sun from? And

50:19

he isn't like that. You know, even

50:21

he's not just like American heartthrob. He's

50:23

Australian. He's been living with his grandfather.

50:26

Like there is maybe it's not explicit the sense

50:28

that perhaps he's not wealthy and doesn't come from

50:30

that world. And so the money is a real

50:32

incentive. You know, he's being offered a hundred dollars

50:34

to take someone to prom. That's a lot of

50:36

money at that time. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot

50:38

of money for any teenager, I would say. Yeah.

50:42

Yeah. And like, you just, yeah, you're right. Just kind

50:44

of can't resist it really. And also on some level,

50:46

it's like, well, I can have my cake and eat

50:48

it. I can go out with the girl I like

50:50

and also get some money to take her out with.

50:52

That's nice. Exactly. her a guitar. And

50:54

that's the thing. The buying of the guitar

50:56

is like, it's the only thing that can

50:58

redeem him and it's one act and they

51:01

had to do it really fast. And it

51:03

works, you know? And even the, like, Julia

51:05

Stiles herself, sort of like our cat, rather,

51:07

references like how neatly it's all been tied

51:09

up. like you can't just buy me a

51:11

guitar every time you do something wrong. And

51:13

then he says yes, but there's also drums

51:15

and bass and maybe even a tambourine. So

51:17

they are sort of making fun about how

51:19

little time they actually have to resolve this

51:22

plot, which again is such a like

51:24

we need to bring back the 90 -minute

51:26

movie. Like the I know. It can be

51:28

done. It can be done. Because if you

51:30

have earned the goodwill of your viewer, we

51:32

don't mind. We want them to make up.

51:34

We want them to be together. We're not

51:36

going to push back. We're not going to

51:39

be like, oh, that's so neat. We crave

51:41

the neatness. It's satisfying. So I think it

51:43

doesn't have to... Not everything has to be

51:45

so highly earned if you've already done the

51:47

work. God. So we've gone over the top

51:49

of talking about things being earned. It's like,

51:51

we can just like a leap of faith

51:53

if we like the characters. It's completely... It's

51:55

totally fine. Exactly. I'm like, it would be

51:57

so depressing if she was like, no, fuck

51:59

you. I guarantee you that there is somewhere

52:01

in a major streamer's office right now, whether

52:03

it's Netflix or Amazon Prime or whatever, they

52:05

are having a meeting about 10 things. I

52:07

had about you, the TV show. And in

52:09

that TV show, we get the grandfather, we

52:12

get the, why the mum left and maybe

52:14

one of the girls visits. Well, meant to

52:16

be a musical on Broadway. I'm sure that

52:18

was, but everything was meant to

52:20

be a musical. Yeah, everything just gets

52:22

stretched out. elongated and people think that like,

52:24

oh, we're going to like add so

52:26

much more shades and vibrancy. It's like, no,

52:28

you're not. You're just over explaining the

52:30

thing to death. No, because the potency is

52:32

in its brevity. That's the whole point. It's

52:35

like an espresso shot. You know, it's like, it's

52:37

not the same as a latte. That's the whole point.

52:39

They're not meant to be the same thing. So

52:41

yeah, I agree. I mean, like it's

52:43

hard. This thing of everything being remade, everything

52:45

being sort of like reworked to death. It's

52:48

just write something new. There's got to be

52:50

a, there are so many amazing female screenwriters.

52:53

It's like, I just want two of them

52:55

to get together and write a new romantic

52:57

comedy that hits like this one. And they're

52:59

doing it. They just can't, I mean, I'm

53:01

fucking doing it, but no one can get

53:03

anything made. Because all about intellectual property all

53:05

the fucking time. But even the stuff with

53:07

intellectual property can't get made. I mean, trying

53:10

to make Cleopatra and Frankstein, the TV show

53:12

has been, I've never, I'm like,

53:14

it would be easier to break in or out of Rikers

53:16

prison at this point. I'm

53:18

like, why is this so hard?

53:21

It's, why is it so hard? I

53:23

don't know. It's, I

53:26

know, I know. And that's why I'm so

53:28

glad. I feel like this did get made

53:30

and there's a nimbleness to them probably because

53:32

they have no big Hollywood actors. The budget,

53:34

you know, I can't imagine was ginormous or

53:36

needed to be ginormous for this film. Well,

53:38

this is unrelated, but I saw a real

53:40

pain Jesse Eisenberg's movie. I loved it. Yeah.

53:43

I just fucking adore that. And it's just like,

53:45

it's just a writer's movie. It's so, the

53:47

dialogue is so delicious and it's so well done.

53:49

But I've been listening to podcasts with him

53:51

and talking about how, you know, he got it

53:53

made. And you would think, you know, it's

53:56

like a four million dollar movie. It is written

53:58

by Jesse Eisenberg. It's starring Jesse Eisenberg. He's

54:00

starring in his own film. directed by him. You

54:02

would think that would be so easy to

54:04

get made. And he was talking about like cobbling

54:06

together grants from the Polish tourist board and

54:08

like how he had an investor, but they dropped

54:10

out at the last minute. It's like, if

54:12

fucking Jesse Eisenberg. You can't get his $3 million

54:15

movie met. I know, with a Culkin. You

54:17

know? With

54:19

a Emmy -winning Culkin. But that's what's so

54:21

crazy, and that's why Hollywood is Cuckoo

54:23

La La Land, because $4 million is literally

54:25

four cents in making a film. But

54:27

$4 million is still $4 million. So it's

54:29

not like, it's still hard to raise

54:31

$2, $3, $4 million to make an indie

54:33

film. And yet it's not considered a

54:35

lot of money in the industry. And everybody

54:37

wants to make movies. that level. Like

54:39

everybody misses the same stuff, which is movies

54:42

like this and movies like a real

54:44

pain. Exactly. But it's not like you or

54:46

I. beautiful writing and great characters and

54:48

whatever. But I couldn't just go make a

54:50

film for four million dollars. It's not

54:52

like four thousand dollars, you know, which is

54:54

like, that would be like, okay, maybe

54:56

I could like scrap that together and go

54:58

make a film. But the bar to

55:00

entry is still so high. Even the lowest

55:02

run. This is so unrelated, but it's

55:04

obviously we're clearly both fucking frustrated by this,

55:06

both from creator's standpoints and also viewer's

55:08

standpoints because we are swimming in bullshit. Like

55:10

there's never been more shit to watch

55:12

than ever. And all anyone wants is just

55:14

like small movies with good characters saying

55:16

cool things. And also what I want is

55:18

things that are tonally light, but still

55:20

deep, like deep, have depth in terms of

55:22

what they're exploring. Because it feels like

55:24

everything that's really good is so depressing, which

55:26

is like, of course there's a place

55:29

for that. But I'm like, I don't always

55:31

like want to be, I don't like

55:33

want to sob always. You know, sometimes I

55:35

do, but I also want things that

55:37

feel like clever and quick. and inspiring and

55:39

like nutritious to watch, but that are

55:41

still fun. And it's so hard to find

55:43

anything in that tone. It's even a

55:45

real pain, which is such a great writer's

55:47

film. And there's so much great dialogue.

55:49

It's ultimately, it's a sad one. Like there's

55:51

like, they're in a concentration camp for

55:53

like 10 minutes of that movie. He does

55:55

like to keep the buoyancy up though,

55:57

which I think is wonderful. does, but I

55:59

would just love a movie that is

56:01

that well done, but is also about teenagers

56:03

in school. Yes, exactly. lot of a

56:05

Shakespeare. That's all we're asking

56:07

for. Come on, Jesse. Yeah, go ahead.

56:09

it for us. What I want to see,

56:11

actually, and this is, and I feel

56:13

like your book would be perfect for this,

56:15

The Rachel Incident. One of my favorites

56:18

of last year. Oh, thank you. By the

56:20

way, thank you for saying good stuff

56:22

about it. That's how we ended up connecting.

56:24

know. I recommended it to Cosmopolitan, think.

56:26

Yes, one day I opened my phone and

56:28

everyone was like, oh, my fucking god,

56:30

Coco Mallorris has recommended it. I went mad.

56:32

It was a great day in my

56:34

phone that day. I read The Rachel Incident

56:36

very soon after I had given birth,

56:38

it because, for example, this reason it segues

56:40

right back in. I was looking for

56:42

a novel that's really well written and really

56:44

clever but not gonna really depress me

56:46

because I was postpartum and you know in

56:48

a very fragile state and it was

56:50

such a delight. I just devoured it. I

56:52

loved it so much. And I really

56:54

was hoping it would be adapted because again,

56:56

I was like, this tone is what

56:58

I want to see in television at the

57:00

moment. What I really want to see

57:02

is Empire Records, like that kind of film,

57:04

but made about a bookshop. And so

57:06

there's a writer coming to the bookshop that

57:08

day, the same way that in Empire

57:10

Records, there's the musician coming. And it's Rex

57:12

Manning Day. It's Rex Manning Day, but

57:14

the writer equivalent. And it's all about the

57:16

booksellers and the relationships and the intrigue.

57:18

Like I've never seen a great film set

57:21

in a bookshop. Yeah. And Notting Hill,

57:23

obviously, that's the book. Well, you're about to.

57:26

Actually, the news could be out by the time

57:28

this podcast broadcasts. What is it? The press

57:30

releases being like commissioned, like it's going out and

57:32

hitting the trades this week. of drumroll. if

57:34

not, I'll just delete this bit. But

57:37

yeah, the Rachel Linsen has been picked

57:39

up by Channel 4. Oh my god. actually

57:41

going to get deleted. Sorry

57:45

to the listeners. It's

57:48

amazing. I met you

57:50

for the first time today and like, here's the

57:52

biggest professional news of my life. Oh my God, I'm

57:54

so happy to hear that. been sitting on this

57:56

since October. It's insane. I actually get

57:59

it. actually getting made. Oh

58:01

my God. Are you writing it? Yeah,

58:03

I'm writing it. Yeah. TV

58:05

or film? TV. Oh my

58:07

God, that is so good

58:09

to hear. You're a lovely

58:12

girl. I think you're heaven. heaven.

58:16

And this is so good news. I've been

58:18

so impressed by you from afar for so long.

58:20

Oh my gosh, she's just a lovely little

58:22

goober like me. It's

58:24

nice to be nice. because

58:30

we have to celebrate these things. It's

58:32

a win for all of us. It's such

58:34

a good thing when good stuff gets

58:36

made. a good day for the

58:38

parish. It's like, I want to see

58:40

good books get adapted. I want to see good

58:42

books sell well and do well. That's what I

58:44

want. It's like, because it actually, it's also selfishly,

58:46

it's depressing when you see something where you're like,

58:49

like, why that? Why

58:51

that? it just makes you feel like you're

58:53

so out of step with the time. Oh my

58:55

God, can I be a little bitch for

58:57

a second? Yeah, absolutely. So, um, so

59:00

awful. Stop it.

59:02

I was really excited about that

59:04

new Netflix show, Apple cider vinegar.

59:06

Oh, I haven't seen it. So

59:08

that was about a story I

59:10

was obsessed with when it happened

59:13

about, um, Belle. Pauly, I

59:15

think her name, is that right, Belle

59:17

Gibson? Belle Gibson is an Australian influencer who

59:19

got famous because she lied about having

59:21

brain cancer and she had a wellness app

59:23

and she like healed herself with blueberries

59:25

and she got people to like go off

59:27

their chemo and like eat fucking whatever. dragon

59:30

fruit in order to cure themselves when she never

59:32

had cancer to begin with. I'm like, people have

59:34

died. And like a

59:36

fascinating story, but like the show

59:38

just cannot, I was so excited to

59:40

watch it. It cannot get out from under

59:43

itself. It's just like, it's obsessed with

59:45

the fact that it's an online story. So

59:47

we just keep seeing like Instagram grids

59:49

on screen. It's like, it's, it's like they've

59:51

made a show is like, okay, well,

59:53

we have to take for granted that 99

59:55

% of population has ADHD. So we have

59:57

to keep them like alert at all

59:59

times. like the scenes never set is just

1:00:01

like flashing lights and a new thing

1:00:03

all the time, that you no fucking clue

1:00:05

who these characters are. It's really bad. And

1:00:08

you're like, why has that been made? I

1:00:10

know. I'm like, I think that's the thing

1:00:12

is like, when you're trying to make something,

1:00:14

you can't pander to the lowest part of

1:00:16

ourselves. Like all of us have that thing

1:00:18

that we can't concentrate. They were on our

1:00:20

phones while watching TV. And that's okay. Fine.

1:00:22

That exists. But that's not as the artist,

1:00:24

what we should be trying to hit. It's

1:00:26

like you're trying, like you're trying to disappoint

1:00:28

people. expectations to create new, better ones, always.

1:00:31

Which is why I think maybe you have

1:00:33

this with your book, like when I wrote

1:00:35

Cleopatra and Frankenstein, I was constantly asked to

1:00:37

write a sequel, which for me didn't, one,

1:00:39

I actually thought if the TV show got

1:00:41

made, that would be the place that a

1:00:43

story like that would make sense. But also,

1:00:45

the goal is not to just keep giving

1:00:47

people what they've already imagined to you, it's

1:00:49

to imagine something new. The only thing you

1:00:51

have as a writer, especially with your first

1:00:53

book, because you're not bloody, I wasn't being

1:00:55

paid, so you don't have any money, you

1:00:57

only have your freedom. like,

1:00:59

and the freedom is so intimidating, but it's

1:01:01

also so sweet. And it's so incredible. And

1:01:03

I just couldn't give it up. so sweet. You're

1:01:06

so right. It's the only answer for anything when

1:01:09

someone's like, why did you do this in the book?

1:01:11

And I'm like, because I wanted to. Because I

1:01:13

want to. And I had a full -time job as

1:01:15

a copywriter. So I didn't have it, you know, and

1:01:17

in that job, why did you do this? Because

1:01:19

the client said so. my God, I didn't realize you

1:01:21

were a formal marketing girly as well. Yes, exactly.

1:01:23

Well, like you don't have that sweet, sweet freedom, but

1:01:25

you do get the sweet, sweet paycheck. That

1:01:29

was the trade -off, but that freedom, which I felt

1:01:31

with my first book, which I still feel like with

1:01:33

my third book, I'm like, oh, do people really want

1:01:35

to read about, I mean, writing about, you

1:01:37

know, fertility and miscarriage and the choice to become a

1:01:39

mother and like, but I'm like, that's what I want

1:01:41

to write about. Like that's what feels pressing to me

1:01:43

at the moment. That's what I'm chatting about with people.

1:01:45

And if I'm chatting about it, then surely someone wants

1:01:47

to read about it. Yes!

1:01:49

God, you were just a breath of fresh air.

1:01:51

Do you know that? I was in such a

1:01:53

kind of slumpy February mood when I got out

1:01:55

of bed this morning. I know, it's grim today.

1:01:57

It's grim today. And I've just had

1:02:00

the last morning ever. I know, this has

1:02:02

been so nice. Please have me

1:02:04

back. Honestly, open invite. But like then, before

1:02:06

we wrap, we should really talk about all

1:02:08

the little bits of this movie that we

1:02:10

haven't touched on yet. Horny a scene, I

1:02:12

think, is when they're doing paintball. And when

1:02:14

he kisses her in the hay bale. Yes. That's

1:02:16

so good, because it's like, like, kissing a

1:02:18

hay bale is such a kind of a classic

1:02:21

romantic image, but the fact that like covered

1:02:23

in paint and it's caked into her hair and

1:02:25

they're wearing jumpsuits. She actually Julia Stahl said

1:02:27

that was her favorite scene that I think she'd

1:02:29

ever shot. She said it's that paintball scene. Oh,

1:02:32

yeah, full of quizzes. I

1:02:34

know, I know. It's so, it's so good.

1:02:36

I mean, it's like, and then you

1:02:38

have the kind of Seattle skyline in the

1:02:40

background, like it's just, it's great. All

1:02:42

of it is so great. Like their whole

1:02:44

dynamic together is that she is never

1:02:46

defanged, which I really like. Yeah. It's not

1:02:48

just her being like, no, don't hit

1:02:50

me with the babe. Like she like wax

1:02:52

him in the Yeah, yeah, yeah. She

1:02:54

really fucking gets him. Like just in general,

1:02:56

I think it really speaks to Julia

1:02:58

Stiles gift as an actress and like the

1:03:00

fact that she's an 18 year old.

1:03:02

Wait a minute. I'm so sorry. We haven't

1:03:04

talked about the poem. That's

1:03:06

what I was about to talk

1:03:08

about. This is crazy because that

1:03:10

poem remains. I mean, I know

1:03:12

it off my heart. I basically

1:03:14

want it read at my funeral. No,

1:03:19

I won't waste the precious minutes reciting

1:03:21

it from scratch. But I did, you know,

1:03:23

I was reading sort of anecdotes about

1:03:25

this film and they shot it in one

1:03:27

take. She just did it once. The

1:03:30

crying was unplanned. The crying was unplanned. And

1:03:32

it just, I mean, that, I love those

1:03:34

kind of moments where it's so pure. Like

1:03:36

it's just, it like goes beyond the script,

1:03:38

beyond the filming. Like there's just that, it's

1:03:40

Julia Stiles just raw emotion. And like she

1:03:42

was saying it was because she'd had such

1:03:44

an amazing experience on this film and it

1:03:46

was, they shot it right at the end.

1:03:49

And so she started to cry because she just felt

1:03:51

this like amazing sense of gratitude, but also sadness

1:03:53

that it was over. I know. I

1:03:55

think what's so powerful about it as

1:03:57

well is because like the character, you

1:03:59

know, it's very much such a character

1:04:01

journey for Kat Stratford. Like her beginning

1:04:04

is like this like tough as nails,

1:04:06

like kind of like uninviting to watch

1:04:08

bitch because she's sort of like. cuts

1:04:10

everyone off. And it makes it

1:04:12

like scenes don't really progress that well. And

1:04:14

then she kind of like softens a bit

1:04:16

and she's just like, oh, it turns out

1:04:18

she's not a tough bitch. She's just a,

1:04:20

you know, a teen girl who wants to

1:04:22

be kissed, like every other teen girl wants

1:04:24

to be kissed. And then by the time

1:04:27

that you get to that final scene where

1:04:29

she's reading the poem and she's like so

1:04:31

vulnerable and crying and you're like, oh, she's

1:04:33

also just a little girl. I know. But

1:04:35

once again, she's the performer. She's like, she

1:04:37

is a little girl, but she is also

1:04:39

someone who's expressed. herself. Like it's her words

1:04:41

that we're hearing. It's not his. Like usually

1:04:43

the woman is the muse for the poem,

1:04:45

but it's the other way around in this

1:04:47

film. And I think like this place is

1:04:49

that nothing is inherently embarrassing if committed to.

1:04:52

Like if I got up and read a

1:04:54

poem in front of my high school class

1:04:56

and burst into tears, I would feel that

1:04:58

I had to move to Australia. I would

1:05:00

have to swap places with Heath Ledger because

1:05:02

I would feel so humiliated because I experienced

1:05:04

vulnerability as very embarrassing as a teenager. And

1:05:07

it's not like you watch that scene

1:05:09

and like you know she walks out

1:05:11

of the class but like it's there's

1:05:13

no sense of like oh my god

1:05:15

like how could she ever show her

1:05:17

face again like yeah she literally read

1:05:19

about him too he's like just there

1:05:21

he's sitting right there and it just

1:05:23

and it doesn't feel embarrassing at all

1:05:25

I know you just feel her pain

1:05:27

so deeply I know but it's also

1:05:29

I think like The feeling, when I

1:05:32

was growing up, it felt like to

1:05:34

be emotional was embarrassing. And maybe this

1:05:36

is quite English. Like, I don't know

1:05:38

if maybe in America it changed a

1:05:40

bit. But you are Irish. And to

1:05:42

be a girl, it was like, oh,

1:05:44

just like being an emotional girl, being

1:05:46

a heartbroken girl. And it's like, it's

1:05:48

not like in that moment, like she's,

1:05:50

I just think it's, she just comes

1:05:52

across as like, it's, she's so lovable

1:05:54

to me in that moment. Like, and

1:05:56

she's cool. Like, I think it's fucking

1:05:58

cool that pub. I think it's great.

1:06:04

And she's the only one that raises

1:06:06

her hand to do it. She's fucking

1:06:08

confident. I remember that feeling

1:06:11

in class of the teacher being like,

1:06:13

anyone want to volunteer their work? I

1:06:15

still don't want to volunteer my work

1:06:17

and I'm a literal professional writer. It's

1:06:20

such a perfect thing though when you're at

1:06:22

that age and again, you're feeling all these

1:06:24

huge emotions for the first time and you

1:06:26

can't handle them. And the only thing that's

1:06:28

worse than saying... then keeping them in and

1:06:30

saying them out loud kind of thing all

1:06:32

the way around. She's like, she kind of

1:06:34

has no choice. She's like, I have to

1:06:36

unburden myself. It's also, you know, Kat for

1:06:38

me is like, she's such a renaissance woman

1:06:41

in this film. Like she plays guitar, she

1:06:43

plays like footy. She writes poetry. She

1:06:45

gets into Sarah

1:06:47

Lawrence. She's obviously a really good student.

1:06:50

He's a just character. I'm actually forgetting his name

1:06:52

in the film. I'm like, oh, Patrick. I'm

1:06:54

like, he is just like Patrick Verona. It's Shakespeare.

1:06:57

Of course. How could I forget? really

1:06:59

has nothing going on in comparison. No, he

1:07:01

smokes. He smokes. I guess he has the

1:07:03

woodshot. There is a point where he's like

1:07:06

dipping a rod of iron. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:07:08

Or he's like... Woodshot. Like, he's always doing

1:07:10

like manly things. Like he's playing pool in

1:07:12

that random bar in the biker bar. But

1:07:14

he really has nothing going on in comparison

1:07:16

to him. Yeah, yeah. As far as we

1:07:18

can tell, like, because in, you would think

1:07:20

traditionally that he would be the one in

1:07:22

the band, you know, he would be the

1:07:25

sort of rock and roll, but actually like...

1:07:27

has no skills. And you can

1:07:29

so see how you would get like whipped up in someone

1:07:31

like Kat, being like, I just want to see what she's

1:07:33

up to. Also,

1:07:36

the weird bum note that sort of happens

1:07:38

at the end of a lot of like

1:07:40

teen dramas is like, obviously they're in senior

1:07:42

year. You always make your characters in senior

1:07:44

year because you want them to have as

1:07:46

much independence as possible, right? And so they're

1:07:48

going off to college. She's going across the

1:07:50

country. It's like, what's going to happen to

1:07:52

them? It's

1:07:56

like, enjoy your summer guys. It's not going

1:07:58

to be much after that. It's so true.

1:08:00

And it's never a girl. I think she

1:08:02

should have amazing summer with Patrick and then

1:08:04

she should go off to Sarah Lawrence and

1:08:06

start her life anew. But that's what's so

1:08:08

wonderful about these shows. It's like, oh, like

1:08:10

this film is like the emotions are as

1:08:12

if it's the most important relationship of your

1:08:14

entire life. But the reality is it's like,

1:08:16

I guess some people do marry their high

1:08:18

school sweetheart. But that's not

1:08:20

the point of it with Patrick. It's

1:08:23

like, oh, they're just here to understand. stand

1:08:25

each other and feel understood. And it's exactly

1:08:27

because the emotional stakes are very high, that

1:08:29

the life stakes are actually very low. We're

1:08:33

talking three months. Exactly.

1:08:36

Which I think is why these films feel so

1:08:38

safe, you know, because it's like, you know

1:08:40

that everyone's going to be okay, you know, teenagers,

1:08:43

they'll be fine, like life will go

1:08:45

on. But it's wonderful to occupy that

1:08:47

emotional milieu for a period of time

1:08:49

where you're like, everything, because it's still,

1:08:51

everything feels so big and it should.

1:08:53

Yeah, it should. And

1:08:55

Bianca and Kat are sort of like friendly

1:08:57

at the end. That's sweet to other. I

1:08:59

love when Bianca's go sailing. Go sailing! I

1:09:02

know she likes come. That's exactly what you

1:09:04

should be doing, Bianca. No more hanging out

1:09:06

with mean people. No, go sailing! Exactly! One

1:09:08

of the things I also love is that

1:09:11

Bianca is giving the credit of really going

1:09:13

off Joey on her own. Yeah. Before she

1:09:15

even learns. Yeah, well, she thinks she's boring.

1:09:17

Yeah, she's just like, she's, I mean, he's

1:09:19

like showing us modeling photos. Like she's rolling

1:09:21

her eyes. Like she is actually like, she's,

1:09:23

she's knowing Bianca. in a way that does

1:09:25

undercut the kind of airhead -y, you

1:09:27

know, they could have made her

1:09:29

much more silly, I think. And

1:09:31

like, actually, she's pretty with it. The

1:09:33

thing of like women being

1:09:35

sort of spiky and clever and

1:09:37

still allowed to be romantic

1:09:39

leads and not like... feel

1:09:41

like Cat is a good example of that,

1:09:43

that they don't... I think the thing that

1:09:45

I'm always afraid of when they have characters

1:09:48

like Cat is that usually they have to

1:09:50

be humiliated, you know, and hurt somehow. And

1:09:52

Cat is like, her humiliation is pretty light.

1:09:54

She does a fantastic dog on the side

1:09:56

of party. And

1:09:58

then she throws up, but in private, like only

1:10:00

in front of Patrick. Her humiliation is that

1:10:02

he won't kiss her because she's pissed. Yeah, and

1:10:04

actually that's a really nice moment that he

1:10:06

doesn't, he's like, you won't remember this. And of

1:10:09

course, in that moment, I understand why she

1:10:11

feels rejected, but we as the audience, I was

1:10:13

like, good for fucking you. Like that's what

1:10:15

I'm talking about. It's that Patrick is an old

1:10:17

fashioned gentleman, actually, but needs the surface. Even

1:10:19

that line with what he says is it's very

1:10:21

quaint how he says it. And like on

1:10:23

reflection, you shouldn't really hang out with someone who

1:10:25

insults your sister. but what he says is,

1:10:27

I know everyone digs your sister, but to me,

1:10:30

she's without. I know. Which is a very

1:10:32

classy way of saying things. I agree. Something to

1:10:34

dumb bitch. I was actually thinking that because

1:10:36

I was like without. I'm like, I

1:10:38

don't know if that was like slang, like

1:10:40

West Coast slang. think so. I think it's

1:10:42

him being like, I live with my granddad.

1:10:44

Yeah. And this is something he might say.

1:10:46

It's a perfect way of choosing cat and

1:10:48

siding with her, but of course, without having

1:10:50

to like fully nag Bianca, which would be

1:10:52

not, no, because it's like... It's kind of

1:10:55

an idea. It is Nicky,

1:10:57

but saying someone's without is like...

1:11:00

subtle enough, you know, if you finish

1:11:02

the sentence, like she's without class

1:11:04

or like she's without brains or she's

1:11:06

without beauty, like that feels like

1:11:08

a full insult. But it's just a

1:11:10

sort of vague enough way. That

1:11:12

kind of implication of she's missing something,

1:11:14

something that you have. Yes, exactly.

1:11:16

Which also I think is true because

1:11:18

Cat is also older and Bianca

1:11:20

in two years time will probably be

1:11:22

more like Cat. But Bianca

1:11:24

is in a real... Bianca changes in

1:11:26

the film. Cat doesn't so much. changes

1:11:28

in that she lets her defenses down

1:11:30

a little bit. But in terms of

1:11:32

her basic, how she presents herself

1:11:34

to the world, how she moves through the

1:11:36

world, it remains very consistent. Which is actually

1:11:38

what I love about her. It's like the

1:11:40

clay has sort of dried in terms of

1:11:42

who she is. She's going to be this

1:11:44

way forever, actually. Yeah, like this is her.

1:11:46

We know her essence. Whereas Bianca goes from

1:11:48

being the ultimate, like, yes, girl, to

1:11:51

punching this guy in the face in the

1:11:53

middle of the dance floor. Which

1:11:55

is amazing. It's great. I know. Which

1:11:57

is not without of her. It's

1:11:59

very with. Very with. Very with. Very

1:12:02

with. You're

1:12:06

an extremely fashionable woman. I've

1:12:09

been adoring your outfit this entire

1:12:11

time. It's undressing my eyes. But

1:12:14

we got to talk very briefly before

1:12:16

we end this podcast. Stay on the fashion,

1:12:18

because I think all the fashion dates

1:12:20

really well in this movie. I think so

1:12:22

too. But it's also very - Reformation core.

1:12:24

It's very - But that's because Reformation is

1:12:26

pulling from that time. Yes, totally. It's

1:12:28

very much a late 90s sort of like

1:12:30

casual separates time. One of the things

1:12:32

I love is that Bianca's prom out. is

1:12:34

actually, I think, not what you would

1:12:36

expect if her. Cat goes very classically feminine.

1:12:38

And did you notice the cat is

1:12:40

wearing the pearls to prom? So

1:12:42

it comes back again. But she wears,

1:12:44

you know, like a purple -piece and the

1:12:46

two -two. Yes, like the two -two. It's

1:12:48

actually quite like Betsy Johnson. It's a

1:12:50

bit more like punk than you would

1:12:52

expect would be Aga, which I really

1:12:54

loved. And that, again, it's like, it's

1:12:56

a little nod to the transition of

1:12:58

her character from this quite twee, hyper

1:13:01

feminine to like, I mean, it's still very

1:13:03

feminine. and it's pink, it's floofy, but like

1:13:05

it's not sexy. I don't, it's not trying

1:13:07

to be, it's fun. What's lovely about it

1:13:09

is that it's like, it's acknowledging I'm still

1:13:11

a kid, but it's also that I'm also

1:13:13

a person who knows what they want and

1:13:15

like I'm tough as well. Like a tough

1:13:17

kid. I'm not pretending to be some adult

1:13:19

sexual woman yet. I'm having fun with my

1:13:21

quite innocent boyfriend and his quite innocent prom

1:13:23

and they're just like having a nice time

1:13:25

together. And then they're going to go off

1:13:27

on a bloody sailboat. Yeah, exactly. literally

1:13:29

going to sail into the sunlight. And that is

1:13:31

the kind of like what it's very much telegram. with

1:13:33

that relationship and how she's dressed towards the end

1:13:35

of the movie is that like, oh, Bianca's got plenty

1:13:37

of time. You know, she doesn't need to rush

1:13:39

this. She doesn't need to rush into going out with

1:13:41

someone like Joey, who's scary and weird. Like, just

1:13:43

take your time. Where are two, two? Go say like,

1:13:45

I know. And then Kat's outfit,

1:13:47

she's wearing the purple and she's got the

1:13:49

kind of purple, like sort of pashmina. And

1:13:51

she's, she's got actually very traditional. She's got

1:13:53

her hair slicked back. She puts the red

1:13:55

rose behind her ears. That's

1:13:57

a very triggering updo, I think. We

1:13:59

all have a picture of ourselves. something.

1:14:02

The gel backbone, that's way too high.

1:14:05

I have with this sort of crispy

1:14:07

girl. It's such a crispy girl. But

1:14:10

in general, her clothing is great, I

1:14:12

would say. Like she looks very cool

1:14:14

throughout the whole film. Yeah. And she,

1:14:17

you just got her leather jacket. Like

1:14:19

it's, it's nineties. It's very, like very,

1:14:21

it's grunge light, you know? Yes. And

1:14:24

Bianca, I regret the

1:14:26

music of the indie rock persuasion.

1:14:28

Yes, exactly. Bianca's going to think

1:14:30

for me it's less memorable. It's like little spaghetti

1:14:32

strap dresses and like cardies. Yeah, she's got

1:14:34

this little like... sort of bright red mini dress

1:14:36

that I'm a big fan of. Oh yeah,

1:14:38

that's a great outfit. That is really good what

1:14:40

she wears to the party. And I have

1:14:42

to say Gabrielle Union's character has some really nice

1:14:44

outfits. And obviously she's stunning. So like she

1:14:46

has a lot of moments like fashion wise, where

1:14:48

I think she looks great. You know who

1:14:50

I love as well, who's a small character? The

1:14:53

English teacher. Oh my

1:14:55

god. He's fantastic. He's so funny.

1:14:57

He's so, so good. And I can't remember the

1:14:59

actor's name, but he was also, if you ever

1:15:01

watched Veronica's closet, but I was looking into him

1:15:03

last night and very sadly, he was like, um,

1:15:05

he was a rapper, a comedian. He was, he

1:15:07

was doing a lot of stuff. He was doing

1:15:09

stuff with like Chris Rock, Andy Murphy and all

1:15:11

that. He was of that class. And then he

1:15:13

was in a very serious motorbike accident and he

1:15:16

is now paralyzed below the waist. So

1:15:18

he's done a lot in terms of like, um, you

1:15:20

know, uh, talking about disability and actors

1:15:22

and. and making the industry better for

1:15:24

disabled actors. But yes, it's like

1:15:26

that kind of role he was able to

1:15:28

do. And when he does so amazingly in

1:15:31

this film was kind of crushed or it

1:15:33

is really sad. That's really sad because he

1:15:35

again, it's like, I think that's what makes

1:15:37

like a character actor so incredible. I don't

1:15:39

know if he's a character actor, I'm sure

1:15:41

he's leads and other things. But when you're

1:15:43

given, you know, just a few lines, but

1:15:45

you become so memorable and his antagonistic relationship

1:15:47

with Kat, where he is just, it's like

1:15:49

when she, even when she's being earnest, he

1:15:51

assumes that she is giving him shit. And

1:15:55

yet you still like him on his

1:15:57

side. Like he could come across as

1:16:00

a sort of bullying teacher, but he's

1:16:02

really doesn't. He's so charming. And

1:16:04

he's so right about things. Like constantly complaining

1:16:06

about things from the feminist perspective, which like,

1:16:08

I agree with what she's saying, but he's like,

1:16:10

well, do you think that I'm not teaching

1:16:12

anything by a black man right now? Just kind

1:16:15

like cooling her up. And then the white

1:16:17

Rastafarian's being like, yes, man. And then he's like,

1:16:19

do not get me started on you. It's

1:16:22

very, like, oh wow, 1999 and we're talking

1:16:24

intersectionality. Yeah, exactly. I know it's good. I

1:16:26

love the captain in the film. It's done

1:16:28

a deathly thing that a writer drafts, but

1:16:30

that doesn't often make the cut. And it

1:16:32

feels like it made the cut because he's

1:16:35

this delivery. It's so charming. And it doesn't

1:16:37

feel preachy and it doesn't feel heavy handed.

1:16:39

It feels right. And it's bloody true. So

1:16:41

it feels like a school in Seattle would

1:16:43

be having these conversations in the late nineties.

1:16:45

Yeah, exactly. And then there's that great moment

1:16:47

where he like wraps us on it. Yeah.

1:16:49

Again, what I'm saying, nothing. Nothing

1:16:51

is embarrassing if committed to and

1:16:53

it's like, and it's really cool. Yeah,

1:16:55

it is really cool. Okay.

1:16:58

I finally got, I finally got some internet

1:17:00

in the booth and just to say

1:17:02

that Mr. Morgan, the English teacher is played

1:17:04

by Daryl Mitchell. And

1:17:06

the David Krumholtz

1:17:08

plays Michael Ekman. That

1:17:11

was the, Michael, is that the name? Oh, Michael.

1:17:14

Not Ben or Andrew.

1:17:17

And Bianca, the actress is

1:17:19

called Larissa Alamech. Larissa

1:17:21

Olinne. All the names we didn't say. All

1:17:23

the names we didn't say. That's a nice

1:17:25

title for something. All the

1:17:27

names we didn't say. That's

1:17:31

giving YA robots. Yeah, yeah. You

1:17:33

might come out and you never know. So

1:17:35

Coco, we've got to wrap this up, but

1:17:38

your novel Blue Sisters is now on paperback. Do

1:17:40

you want to tell us any more about

1:17:42

it? Yeah, sure. I guess

1:17:44

we've just been talking so much about

1:17:46

sisters, which is perfect. So Blue

1:17:48

Sisters is the story of three sisters

1:17:50

on the one year anniversary of

1:17:52

their fourth sister's death. The

1:17:54

three sisters are extremely different, but

1:17:56

still very close. The youngest is

1:17:58

a model living in Paris. The

1:18:01

middle sister is a boxer living in LA and

1:18:03

the eldest is a lawyer living in London. And

1:18:05

they all come back together to New

1:18:07

York to stop the sale of their family

1:18:09

home and reckon with life in the wake

1:18:11

of their other sister, Nikki's death. And it's

1:18:13

a sort of like musing on grief, I

1:18:15

would say, and an ode to loving life

1:18:18

in the wake of loss. Can

1:18:20

I ask, because I've always

1:18:22

wanted to write a family novel and I've

1:18:24

always been paranoid because like my family

1:18:26

will just read into anything that's about like

1:18:28

a. and the configuration of a

1:18:30

lot of people living in one house who are

1:18:32

related. Oh, that's about me. Did you have to

1:18:34

navigate that with your siblings? I think

1:18:36

because the sisters are so... When I told my sisters

1:18:39

I was writing a book about sisters, they were like,

1:18:41

oh my God, I can't wait to read it. Which

1:18:43

one's me? And then they read the book and they

1:18:45

were like, who the fuck are these people? It

1:18:47

was so far away. The sisters

1:18:49

are so far away from anyone I

1:18:51

actually even know. Maybe because

1:18:53

their careers are so different or just their

1:18:55

natures are not really like my family. I

1:18:58

what has come from my family is

1:19:01

the love is the way I feel about

1:19:03

my sisters imbues the entire novel and

1:19:05

the the conflict and the tension and the

1:19:07

stickiness and also just that incredible unconditional

1:19:09

regard and support that's what's in there but

1:19:11

in terms of like I don't even

1:19:13

know if there's a single detail from one

1:19:15

of my actual sisters I mean my

1:19:17

I have perfect faith that this is a

1:19:19

single detail but in my experience if

1:19:21

I call any character mom or dad. Mom

1:19:23

and dad are on fairly shortly about

1:19:25

it. Oh, I mean, I think like my,

1:19:28

I mean, it's funny because my mom

1:19:30

is my like first reader. Really? Wow. And

1:19:32

an amazing reader. I can't believe that's

1:19:34

incredible to me. Yeah, she really, and she's

1:19:36

such a good reader and she's so

1:19:38

helpful. And I often write books with sort

1:19:40

of bad mothers at the center. why

1:19:43

it's almost like I don't want to touch my

1:19:45

own relationship with my mother, like, which is so

1:19:47

precious to me. And so, I mean,

1:19:49

maybe in my first week, Eleanor and her

1:19:51

mother would be the closest to my, but even

1:19:54

then it's not, it's not really it. Like, I

1:19:56

think I make the dynamic so different with

1:19:58

the parents like, while my parents are alive,

1:20:00

I just can't even, like actually I was

1:20:02

doing an interview yesterday and someone was asking

1:20:05

about my parents and my family. And I

1:20:07

was just like, I just can't even, I

1:20:09

can't even really touch it somehow. Like, yeah,

1:20:11

yeah, I completely agree. does go

1:20:13

through the sort of fun house mirror of

1:20:15

like things do come out in the fiction

1:20:17

unconsciously that I think about in my own

1:20:19

family. Like obviously I've talked very openly about

1:20:21

the fact I come from a family with

1:20:23

a lot of alcoholism and my book is

1:20:25

a lot about alcoholism and I'm sober and

1:20:27

my siblings are sober and my parents are

1:20:29

sober. It's like it's really touched every single

1:20:31

generation in my family. But I wanted to

1:20:33

explore it with characters that are very different

1:20:35

than my family. But of course they're grappling

1:20:37

with some of the same issues that people

1:20:39

that I did and that my family did.

1:20:42

Gosh. God, so like,

1:20:44

yeah, well, well done. Yeah,

1:20:48

no, like, um, it's

1:20:51

just very rare to have women talk publicly

1:20:53

about alcoholism and particularly in a way that's

1:20:55

artistic, you know, I think there's this real

1:20:57

pressure. I'm sure you felt a certain extent

1:20:59

of this pressure and it's, I'm sure you've

1:21:01

gone backwards and forwards within your own head

1:21:04

of like how much, um, the kind of

1:21:06

a female -led attention economy is to do

1:21:08

with confessing and confessing. And how much that

1:21:10

kind of can nudge up against the fact

1:21:12

that you want to artistically deal with these

1:21:14

subjects. And where does, you know, where does

1:21:16

the market interpret, you know, oh, let's get

1:21:18

Coco Malloy's and her confession about alcoholism versus

1:21:20

you investigating something artistically in a literary sense,

1:21:22

you know? I mean, I remember when I

1:21:24

published my first book, I was asked to

1:21:26

write a part, and I write fiction, you

1:21:28

know, my first book was not at all

1:21:31

based on my life. And then I was

1:21:33

asked to write a personal essay and I

1:21:35

was sent all these examples and it was

1:21:37

just a sort of buffet of female trauma.

1:21:39

It was like, pick your topic, like abortion,

1:21:41

rape, miscarriage, like toxic relationships, abuse. Like there

1:21:43

was nothing other than that. And I just

1:21:45

didn't do it. Like I was like, I

1:21:47

don't want to write anything like that. Not

1:21:49

that I think that any of those people

1:21:51

did essay. also if anybody out there is

1:21:53

being pressured to write those kinds of articles,

1:21:56

they do not move the needle at all.

1:21:58

No, it's not necessary. People sell their fucking

1:22:00

soul for 50 cents. on those things, and

1:22:02

they will not move the needle, they will

1:22:04

not sell an extra copy of your book,

1:22:06

just don't write them. Just don't do it.

1:22:08

Unless you really want Unless you really want

1:22:10

to. But like, don't be told that you

1:22:12

want to. For lots of people who write

1:22:14

non -fiction, I actually think it makes sense because

1:22:16

they're already writing about their life, and so

1:22:18

they write these personal essays. The only time

1:22:20

I did it, and it was something I

1:22:23

thought really carefully about, is for Vogue, I

1:22:25

wrote an essay about sobriety, and I really

1:22:27

wanted the topic to be sobriety, you know,

1:22:29

not like, not the humiliation of the pain

1:22:31

of drinking, which I... Of course, it's part

1:22:33

of the story or sharing your own personal

1:22:35

low or whatever. Exactly. Like I wanted it

1:22:37

to be a story that's about like this

1:22:39

thing is this like beautiful gift in my

1:22:41

life and I got to and I am

1:22:43

lucky enough to have it and there's nothing

1:22:45

shameful at all about being sober or needing

1:22:47

to be sober. And now that feels very

1:22:50

kind of, I think there's a lot of

1:22:52

like Gen Z or Gen Z because I'm

1:22:54

in England, but are very sort of sober

1:22:56

curious and open to that. But yes, but

1:22:58

my, especially being English, when I told people

1:23:00

in England that I was sober, it was

1:23:02

like. It was like I was telling them

1:23:04

that I had like a terminal illness, which

1:23:06

I guess I do because I have alcoholism,

1:23:08

but the attitude was like, oh my God,

1:23:10

like you have to do that forever, like

1:23:12

- Forever? Even at your wedding?

1:23:14

And I was like, no one will want

1:23:17

to marry me if I keep drinking like

1:23:19

I am terrified. You're

1:23:21

so rice, that's so funny. And I feel that

1:23:23

it's this like, it's a great thing that happened

1:23:25

in my life. Like get to be sober, but

1:23:27

I realized I had a problem like, and I

1:23:29

stopped like, and now my life is so much

1:23:31

better. So I wrote about it. And

1:23:33

it's the only time when I don't think I'll

1:23:35

do it again. I'm really glad I did

1:23:37

because I trusted the editor at Vogue and I

1:23:39

trusted Vogue. But it's a topic that I'm

1:23:41

fascinated by, but I really like to explore in

1:23:44

fiction because my own life story is not

1:23:46

that interesting. It's limiting. I like to explore characters.

1:23:48

And I'm interested in people whose lived experience

1:23:50

is different than my own, but whose emotional experience

1:23:52

might echo my own. And that's, I think,

1:23:54

the most exciting thing is to take an emotion

1:23:56

I've experienced. it amazing that as authors that

1:23:58

we have to explain that single time we have

1:24:00

a book out? time.

1:24:02

I would say like the only, I don't

1:24:04

regret anything in my career or my life

1:24:07

because I'm really happy with where I ended

1:24:09

up. And maybe the only thing I would

1:24:11

have changed in my whole career is making

1:24:13

Cleo blonde. I just don't.

1:24:15

It's so right. It's

1:24:17

so pathetic, isn't it? I know, but it was,

1:24:19

if she was a redhead, then that would be

1:24:21

fiction. If I

1:24:23

had known, when I actually just saw a clip

1:24:25

when I was driving over here of Pandora interviewing the

1:24:27

writer, oh, I can't believe I'm beginning, who wrote

1:24:29

Bridget Jones, Helen Fielding. And she was

1:24:31

saying, if I had known how widely read she

1:24:33

would be, I never would have written her as freely

1:24:35

as I did, you know? And I think with

1:24:37

Cleopatra and Frankenstein, because I wrote that for five years

1:24:39

without an agent, without a part, you know, and

1:24:41

it took so long to get published, no one wanted

1:24:43

it. I did write it very freely. Like I

1:24:45

wasn't worried that I didn't think no one was going

1:24:47

to care about me. So I was like, sort

1:24:49

of like. I knew that Cleo wasn't me. I knew

1:24:51

I had made it all up. So I felt

1:24:53

like, oh, why even, I don't have to do anything

1:24:55

to hide that because it's true. I didn't realize

1:24:57

that having her be blonde and British and a similar

1:24:59

me. People, the way that people think about it

1:25:02

is a smoking gun. I

1:25:05

made her blonde actually just because I, at the time

1:25:07

I thought so far away from her, I couldn't get

1:25:09

her. I didn't, she felt alive on the page. So

1:25:11

I thought if I gave her a couple of my

1:25:13

things, like I've said, you know, I gave her the

1:25:15

cigarettes I used to smoke. I gave her my old

1:25:17

sheepskin coat. Like I gave her these like calismanic objects.

1:25:20

And it's being blonde in the world is something

1:25:22

I was like, oh, just, it'll be interesting to

1:25:24

watch her navigate that because you do get attention

1:25:26

and it's not always positive. And sometimes it is,

1:25:28

you know? But I'm like,

1:25:30

yes, but it just made her

1:25:32

open. A color almost nobody is,

1:25:34

but fictional characters and books seem

1:25:36

to be a lot. We

1:25:38

need to go. But I had that same thing

1:25:40

where by the time I got to the Rachel

1:25:43

incident, I was so sick of like every time

1:25:45

I put out a book and having to sort

1:25:47

of an interviewer or and it's not the interviewer's

1:25:49

fault. It's just that people want to read certain

1:25:51

things about books and whether or not the book

1:25:53

is true. journalists

1:25:56

lowering their standards to the lowest common denominator

1:25:58

of what their editor expects from the lowest reader.

1:26:00

Yes, exactly. And it's so frustrating. So by

1:26:03

the time Rachel came around, I was like, you

1:26:05

know what? She's from Cork and she's the

1:26:07

exact same age as me. I know. I don't

1:26:09

fucking care anymore. Like, I know it's

1:26:11

fiction. That's all that matters. I find myself doing it. Like,

1:26:13

I remember reading, like, Elena Ferrante's novels back to back

1:26:15

to back. And in the books, you know, she writes in

1:26:17

first person, which I think, and I was like, oh,

1:26:19

she has daughters. Oh, wait, but in this book, she has

1:26:21

a son. And I'm like, yes, because it's not Elena

1:26:23

Ferrante. What we don't even know who she is. But

1:26:26

I was so, but it was so, I was like, how

1:26:28

could you have made this up? It's so realistic. But

1:26:30

it's, I'm like, that's fiction. what

1:26:33

we're in the game for. And especially

1:26:35

with Cleopatra and Frankstein, I was like, I

1:26:37

write from seven different perspectives, four of

1:26:39

which are men in their 40s. And yet

1:26:41

somehow I was still apparently writing my

1:26:44

life. I just, it's like so insane

1:26:46

to me. But I think for me, it's the,

1:26:48

in some ways I'm like, it's obviously a high

1:26:50

praise because someone is just like, it feels so

1:26:52

real. It must be. But actually, as we know,

1:26:54

it's sometimes really hard to write about the real

1:26:56

things that happened in your life. And it's a

1:26:58

lot easier to And also a lot of real

1:27:00

things that really happen to you feel fake. Exactly.

1:27:02

Like coincidence is really hard to do in fiction, which

1:27:05

is a huge part of life. You know,

1:27:07

a big thing that people hate about the,

1:27:09

I hate, but they feel mixed with about

1:27:11

the end of the Rachel incident. There's a

1:27:13

massive coincidence. that happens at the end. And

1:27:16

to me, it's when he's like her physical

1:27:18

therapist. Oh, of course. Sorry. Oh,

1:27:20

that's not like, oh yeah, that happens.

1:27:22

Yeah.