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easy. made easy. Hello,

0:33

this is this is just a reminder

0:35

that that Garbage is ever so slightly

0:37

different ever Garbage in that it's sort

0:40

of sentimental part film club. sort So if

0:42

you want to sit down and read the postcard,

0:44

you can start listening from now. But if you'd

0:46

prefer to just skip to the film discussion, you

0:48

can look at the start the episode notes and skip

0:50

straight to there. prefer to enjoy.

0:52

skip to the film discussion You

0:54

can look at the time stamp in

0:56

the episode notes and skip straight to

0:58

there. Okay, enjoy welcome back to Continental

1:01

Garbage, the podcast where we can

1:03

fly, we can fight go to Norway.

1:05

to My name is Caroline and and

1:07

is the only adventure I've got

1:09

left. got Joining me is my my

1:11

favorite near-sighted suffering from Peter

1:13

Pan from Peter It's envy. It's Jen County.

1:15

That was one of the insults that

1:17

was one of the insults

1:19

that some gave, or one of

1:21

Fantastic insult, insult, gynecologist was was my

1:24

favorite one. That is a

1:26

very good one one actually. I'm neither

1:28

near nor nor go on as it happens just

1:30

in case you were wondering. in case But

1:32

we are in Norway. are in are bloody are

1:34

Norway. in We talked about this, didn't

1:36

we? think when we did the one

1:38

Norwegian film that exists in the world. film

1:40

that which is the worst person in

1:42

the world. The worst person in the

1:44

world. in the world. talked about the fact that

1:46

we in many years thinking of going

1:48

to Norway, that almost going to Norway. thinking

1:51

Not going to Norway. During the pandemic

1:53

several times, we planned a trip to

1:55

Norway Norway. then we kept several times. And then end of

1:57

2024, you you take... to me and you were like,

1:59

you were like, hey. What if we went

2:01

to Norway? And I was like, yeah,

2:03

go on then, fifth time lucky. Maybe

2:05

we'll get to Norway this time. And

2:07

I honestly didn't believe that we would

2:09

on some level. You said this as

2:12

we met at the airport. We were

2:14

both convinced that something would happen. We'd

2:16

be grounded. I was convinced you'd get

2:18

COVID. I'd get COVID. I was like,

2:20

you'll get stuck in Ireland. Something weird

2:22

will happen. But no, we made it

2:25

here, and we've been here for five

2:27

days. And we're here to tell you

2:29

know that Norway, and we're here to

2:31

tell you that Norway, that Norway, that

2:33

Norway, that Norway is a bloody treat.

2:35

Lovely stuff. As we left England to

2:38

fly to Norway, we were like, either

2:40

this will be the shittest holiday we've

2:42

ever been on or it will be

2:44

magical. Thank God. To give everyone a

2:46

readup, or maybe if you've just like...

2:48

joined this and you weren't with us

2:51

over the summer. Where were you? Where

2:53

were you? What a time we all

2:55

had. During summer, me and this person

2:57

went into railing through Italy, Slovenia, and

2:59

Croatia and we did like a little

3:01

film diary as we went. Starting with

3:03

travel update at the beginning of the

3:06

episode and then ending with the film

3:08

discussion. Oh. That wet film. And then

3:10

and then and... But we filming this?

3:12

Never I would never do that. And

3:14

can I just say while we're on

3:16

the subject that like the idea that

3:19

podcasts are now becoming filmed ventures is

3:21

disgusting. I hate it. Disgusting. I will

3:23

never do it. You will never see

3:25

my faith move and speak. That is

3:27

a customer promise. So yeah, we we

3:29

went around Europe with that and and

3:32

did continental garbage and Now we're doing

3:34

it again. We're here with the Reducts.

3:36

We ended the last season with a

3:38

trip to Portugal and also some goals.

3:40

We did. What our Q4 would bring?

3:42

We made some big commitments for Q4

3:45

and we thought we should probably report

3:47

back in the kind of transparent agreement

3:49

we have with our listeners. Did we

3:51

do our Q4 goals? Do you want

3:53

to go first? Yeah, okay. My Q4

3:55

goals. Those you may think... back will

3:58

remember that at the end of our

4:00

summer season I was being a 10

4:02

in the head, the 10 in the

4:04

heart and the 10 in the world

4:06

but my Q4 goal had nothing to

4:08

do with boyfriends which is great because

4:10

I haven't been so much as touched

4:13

a man since then I'm pure my

4:15

Q4 goal was to write the first

4:17

draft of a novel yeah and I

4:19

actually did do that and you finished

4:21

it today I finished it today I

4:23

really put it to the end of

4:26

the year that I actually technically finished

4:28

it on the 30th and then I

4:30

didn't did some edits before it goes

4:32

away tomorrow I'm so proud of you.

4:34

Well done. This is an ambition you've

4:36

been nursing for a long time. Yeah.

4:39

And I'm just so pleased for you

4:41

that like, it's just incredible man. Like,

4:43

it's incredible to welcome you into the

4:45

profession. Well, I haven't made it into

4:47

the profession just yet. It's a, you've

4:49

got an agent, it's fine. But you're

4:52

in the profession, you're in the whole

4:54

hall of fellows with me. And also

4:56

it's just like, you know, not to

4:58

overshare your personal life and we can

5:00

cut this out if it's too personal,

5:02

but like, you had to go to

5:05

some places this summer in your heart

5:07

in your head with boys and relationships

5:09

and stuff. And like, I just remember

5:11

during periods of last summer. you being

5:13

like super kind of worried about you

5:15

know personal life things and and that

5:17

being kind of the main concern of

5:20

your heart and head during that period

5:22

and then you know obviously on this

5:24

holiday like this you can't help but

5:26

compared to the time you were having

5:28

back during the summer the last time

5:30

you're traveling and I was like oh

5:33

my god she's like a new person

5:35

you know like you're you're so engaged

5:37

in something that like brings you so

5:39

much joy as opposed to trying to

5:41

ring life out of something that was

5:43

dying and it's it's a gorgeous energy

5:46

like all energies from Jen County are

5:48

my favorite energies but I'm just so

5:50

pleased for you to like to watch

5:52

someone really go through the fire of

5:54

like a mid-30s breakup which is a

5:56

top time to have a break up.

5:59

I don't recommend it. And I have

6:01

all their mind and their beauty and

6:03

their art committed to one project and

6:05

to succeed and to finish it? Like,

6:07

finish the project. All the people who

6:09

start novels in the world, the percentage

6:11

of people who finish them is so

6:14

fucking small. Like, well done. Thank you.

6:16

I don't, listen, I don't think it's

6:18

a coincidence that my head was full

6:20

of less anxiety about my relationship status.

6:22

when we were away and again you

6:24

can cut this out this too personal

6:27

for you and you said to me

6:29

I think one of the reasons that

6:31

I'm so able to kind of sink

6:33

into my fictional worlds and write is

6:35

that I've got a really good relationship

6:37

and I'm not spending 20% of my

6:40

time worrying about it. Yeah. Like you

6:42

just have a good relationship where you're

6:44

like I'm in a good place and

6:46

I'm listening to that I'm thinking I

6:48

don't have that. I didn't do that

6:50

anymore I spend that time writing things.

6:53

Yeah, wonderful. I love that. I love

6:55

that too. My mom sent that with

6:57

like very analogy that, the analogy that

6:59

she sort of like picked up at

7:01

the top of her dome and I've

7:03

been using for almost everything since then,

7:06

which was the analogy of the diving

7:08

board and the dive. Huh? Right. So

7:10

I don't understand it. Yeah, I know.

7:12

It sounds like it's like an ancient

7:14

Chinese proverb or something, but it's just

7:16

my mom saying stuff. She said to

7:18

me one day she was like, she

7:21

was like, she was like, she was

7:23

like, she was like, You know, I

7:25

look at everything you're doing and I

7:27

feel like Gavin is the stable diving

7:29

board. This is the life that you

7:31

built together is diving board that just

7:34

allows you to dive and that you're

7:36

able to do adventurous things that are

7:38

scary because you have this sort of

7:40

home base that is really strong. And

7:42

it really touched me because it was

7:44

true and it was a lovely image

7:47

and complimentary of course, but like, then

7:49

I remember meeting a friend, one of

7:51

my oldest friends recently low. and she

7:53

has a toddler at the moment and

7:55

she was saying... I was asking her

7:57

for updates and she was kind of

8:00

doing that thing that newish parents often

8:02

do where they kind of apologize for

8:04

their life. When she was like, oh,

8:06

you know, it's just kind of us

8:08

at the moment. She's like, I've moved

8:10

to Manchester, but I haven't, I don't

8:13

really know anything at Manchester. I just,

8:15

it's all a- It's a place, I'm

8:17

there, but it's really all about her

8:19

right now. It's all about my daughter

8:21

right now. And- Yeah. I was like,

8:23

oh, but Manchester is the diving board

8:25

and your baby is the dive. Like

8:28

you have this stable thing, you've managed

8:30

to buy this beautiful home up there

8:32

and like you can have this dive

8:34

that is like raising this gorgeous kid

8:36

and giving her a beautiful life. And

8:38

I just think whatever your diving board

8:41

is and whatever your dive is, make

8:43

sure that both are good and solid,

8:45

you know? That is really good advice.

8:47

Thank you, Noel. Oh my goodness. Well

8:49

yeah, I had a rickety diving diving

8:51

board before. Hard to do a good

8:54

dive from a bad diving board. It

8:56

goes all floppy. Your form isn't good.

8:58

It was bobbing all over the place.

9:00

I was like, is it even here?

9:02

I don't know. But we're in a

9:04

much better place now. And what about

9:07

you? Do you remember doing a little?

9:09

Yes. Do you remember your Q4 resolution?

9:11

Because I remember there were two. Yes,

9:13

I had two resolutions and one of

9:15

the resolutions was to host us more.

9:17

And did you do it? Yes, you

9:19

did! I knew that already. And I

9:22

know, because you've been the victim of

9:24

my hosting. The victim? Sorry, the honoured

9:26

recipient of your benevolence, like a lord

9:28

from his king. You eat from my

9:30

table? I eat at your table. Often,

9:32

and the other one was to join

9:35

a climbing wall, which I did not

9:37

do. I think it's

9:39

nice to have a stretch goal. I feel

9:41

like it's quite literally a stretch goal. I

9:43

feel like even when you said it in

9:46

my head I was like, nah, she's

9:48

not going to do that. You've done so

9:50

well at. Yeah. What's your maximum number so

9:52

far you've hosted? I have hosted like three

9:55

friends plus Gavin plus me so that's total

9:57

of five. That's still very. That's nice. And

9:59

that was a themed evening. Yes, it was.

10:01

I think you've really like broken through the

10:04

fair barrier there. I really, so yeah, I

10:06

really have, that's the thing, because I think

10:08

I mentioned on the podcast when I made

10:11

this goal that like, I had this

10:13

very insecure hosting thing. And then part of

10:15

that was like my first proper best friend

10:17

coming to this country was Ella Risbridger, who

10:20

was a entire generation of. millennials how to

10:22

roast chicken. And so when we were in

10:24

our early 20s, I would just go over

10:26

there and she would do all the hosting

10:29

and then I'd de facto just like. that

10:31

thing you do where, and I often do

10:33

it with, I think it's a very youngest

10:36

channel thing, I often do it with

10:38

you, where I'm just like, Gen will look

10:40

after all the travel arrangements. And I do.

10:42

I just sort of like give responsibility away

10:44

to people very easily in a way that's

10:47

like vaguely explosive, but everyone seems fine with

10:49

it. Anyway, then I just didn't learn how

10:51

to cook and then I got really insecure

10:54

about not ever doing it and... Then I

10:56

just wanted to fix that and I'm like,

10:58

I have hosted the themed evenings, I

11:00

have hosted a vegan dinner party. The

11:02

other day I was supposed to meet my

11:04

brother for lunch and we were trying to

11:07

decide what pub to go to for a

11:09

pub roast. And then you were just

11:11

like, no. I said, just come over, I'll

11:13

do us a roast. And he was like,

11:16

really, it's noon now and I'll be over

11:18

in an hour. I was like, I can

11:20

pull a roast together in an hour. Yeah!

11:23

This is an extraordinary leap in confidence. It

11:25

really, and it really is a confidence thing.

11:27

I think it's a really important thing to

11:29

remember because there's still that sense sometimes in

11:32

your 30s that whatever you are now is

11:34

what you're going to be forever. You're

11:36

somehow so old in part that you can't

11:38

possibly learn a new thing. You really can.

11:41

Like you can so learn new things. And

11:43

if you are now, any age, I'm sure

11:45

this is true up until about the age

11:47

of... 80 and you're like, I really want

11:50

to learn to do this thing. I want

11:52

to do this better. You can do this

11:54

thing better. You just got to put some

11:57

time into it. I learned to sew

11:59

last year. I can do that now. I

12:01

can make weird, wavy linen gums. novel this

12:03

year? Yeah, I've not done that before. Yeah,

12:05

actually that's not true I have. But you're

12:08

in a, what? I've written a, I've written

12:10

a book before, not a novel, I've written

12:12

a book before. But yeah, you can do

12:15

things, you can, you don't, there's, you're not,

12:17

you're not, you're not done after you're 25,

12:19

you know? Yeah. You can teach a middle-aged

12:22

dog new tricks. Yeah, you

12:24

can teach her no longer juvenile dog

12:26

neutrics. That's true. So we decided that we

12:28

were going to start in the town of

12:30

Bergen. Yes. City of Bergen. We flew

12:32

into Bergen from Gatwick for flights that were

12:35

quite expensive considering we left to the last

12:37

minute. Yes. But still worth it. And if

12:39

we'd wanted to, we could each have taken

12:41

56 kilos of luggage. Because that was

12:43

the only flight available to us. That's it.

12:46

But there's two fat sisters was all we

12:48

took, which is a duffel bag, the size

12:50

of the small cat. Yes. And then,

12:52

so we spent a few days in Bergen

12:55

and then, including New Year's Eve, and then

12:57

took a seven-hour train to Oslo, ignored Oslo

12:59

completely. Haven't been, and we walked through the

13:02

main square to get a bus. Seemed

13:04

fine. To where we are now. First, so...

13:06

Bergen, we booked Bergen, mainly because of this

13:08

train journey. I was like, apparently one of

13:10

the most beautiful train journeys in the

13:12

world is from Bergen to Oslo, Oslo to

13:15

Bergen, we've got to do it, and the

13:17

way that the flights, which were not really

13:19

available, worked, we could get to Bergen and

13:22

then go down to Oslo and fly

13:24

out. And there was a moment, there was

13:26

a real wobble moment there, there was a

13:28

real... I had to like, you know... grab

13:30

you by the chain and say we're not

13:33

doing room with a view like you

13:35

did to me yeah in lupiana this summer

13:37

where you were like I've heard Bergen is

13:39

the rainiest city in Europe I've heard it

13:42

rains every single day and what if

13:44

we go to Bergen and we're just indoors

13:46

in the rain yeah that was a real

13:48

fear you were really you were really worried

13:50

I felt like we were teaching on the

13:53

edge of not going to Norway for

13:55

the sixth or fifth or sixth time you

13:57

know you're yeah yeah yeah totally And the

13:59

thing is, is like, when the flights revealed

14:02

themselves to be really quite expensive, I

14:04

was like, am I really going to spend

14:06

this much money to fly on New Year's

14:08

Eve to a rained out city, when I've

14:11

just spent Christmas in Cork, where it rained

14:13

constantly, because if there's anything I know

14:15

about growing up in a coastal city, is

14:17

that it rains almost constantly. And I was

14:19

like, in Cork, having a great time this

14:22

Christmas, but still being like, I don't

14:24

know. I can do this. If it's going

14:26

to be more rain. And then you said

14:28

no. You took me by the hand and

14:31

you're like in the face and said no.

14:33

We said Norway. We're doing Norway. We

14:35

will do Norway. And I said, very well.

14:37

I said, we can do rain. But I

14:39

also felt in my heart, you know, you

14:42

have a feeling. You know, you have a

14:44

shout. You don't want to jinx it.

14:46

But I was like, I have a feeling

14:48

that it's not going to not going to

14:51

rain. And it didn't rain. It didn't rain.

14:53

It was like a constant snow, a

14:55

constant magical fall of snow. Every day we

14:57

were in Bergen, it snow so thickly and

15:00

so beautifully. You really understood how much it

15:02

could rain in Bergen at that moment of

15:04

year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was... a

15:06

winter wonderland. It was the Bergen of postcards.

15:08

And I've never really been in proper snow

15:11

before. Obviously every few years in England it

15:13

snows and it snowed a couple of

15:15

times in corkin childhood but like a proper

15:17

like snow-capped wilderness that goes on forever thick

15:20

thick thick snow fresh powder every few minutes

15:22

like we went up the mountain on the

15:24

funicular railway. Yeah so the Bergen is

15:26

a little city fishing city fishing city. What's

15:28

around a bit? Yeah, but like what's incredible

15:31

about it and why it's definitely worth it

15:33

going to is that it's like this

15:35

gorgeous cute as Norwegian City that is full

15:37

of like nice shops and things and nice

15:40

restaurants and a lovely fish market and all

15:42

the boosy things you want from like a

15:44

little city break. But then you can

15:46

just bang on to a funicular and you're

15:49

suddenly within five minutes and for about four

15:51

quid on a mountain. on a beautiful mountain

15:53

with these views over the whole city and

15:55

kind of the opening to I guess

15:57

it's a fjord, the harbour that leads out

16:00

to a fjord. Yeah. It was, we went

16:02

up there on New Year's Day and we

16:04

just spent four hours up this, it's

16:06

called Floyen I think, it's one of the

16:09

seven mountains around Bergen. Just like prancing around

16:11

looking at stuff, going into the gift shop,

16:13

having a cup of tea. climbing up something

16:15

a bit higher looking down yeah seeing

16:17

a frozen lake wow wow wow wow wow

16:20

it was amazing it was so gorgeous I

16:22

will really was the the best New Year's

16:24

day of my life it was so

16:26

I mean I know when your day isn't

16:29

generally like a holiday that we mark because

16:31

it's it's usually a fog of being hung

16:33

over and yeah you're in your house or

16:35

somebody else's house or whatever but I

16:37

was like wow I really something about all

16:40

the whiteness and blackness and newness and glitter

16:42

was like Wow, this is going to be

16:44

a great year. Like, it was so beautiful.

16:47

And the night before, we'd been in

16:49

the harbour where the fishing boats all toot

16:51

their horns at midnight and everyone at South

16:53

Fireworks, but it's not weird and aggressive. Yeah.

16:56

It's very, it's very elegant. It's very

16:58

chic. It's very chic. Although we disparate complete

17:00

transparency, we had this odd moment where we

17:02

realized that, like many, you know, like many

17:04

places, people kind of regarding New Year's Eve

17:07

is more of a family holiday. UK

17:09

and Ireland and maybe America who are like,

17:11

yeah, seriously, let's go outside and get fucked

17:13

up kind of thing. And maybe just sort

17:16

of major world cities, but like in

17:18

most places it's kind of thought of as

17:20

more of a family holiday. Yeah and everyone

17:22

had really gone either just at the time

17:24

of their family or to a black tie

17:27

event and we had come in on

17:29

a plane and went sat in the pub

17:31

with everyone else who had friends. Yeah. It

17:33

was quite a crowd. It was a real,

17:36

yeah, it was really the Dregs. Yeah,

17:38

and we were among those Dregs. We were

17:40

among those Dregs too. We were the Dregs

17:42

too. Almost every pub was close, so we

17:45

found this one little pub to hole up

17:47

in until midnight until midnight, where it

17:49

really was like the, like the, like, like,

17:51

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

17:53

like, like, like, over men of Bergen. I've

17:56

never seen that show, The Leftovers, but I

17:58

assume it was about this pub. Yeah,

18:00

I mean, unfortunately it was snowing, so it

18:02

felt magical. Yes, yes, and there was a

18:05

sense of, ooh, camaraderie, we're all in here,

18:07

it's snowing out there, but there was

18:09

quite a few men that tried to talk

18:11

to people on holidays, just so I can

18:13

discuss them after they leave. And then, and

18:16

just the no chat, fucking. Wow, and like

18:18

it's not even like a language barrier,

18:20

because they had perfect English. There were just

18:22

these men who had been left behind. I

18:25

would say that was the one theme of

18:27

Bergen was being talked to by people

18:29

who had no social skills. Because all those,

18:31

the really social Norwegian people were with their

18:33

friends, where they should be. But we had,

18:36

but it was quite nice, because actually, rather

18:38

than going out for a massive rager,

18:40

we just... had a couple of whiskeys and

18:42

then we went and watched the fireworks and

18:45

then we went to bed and then we

18:47

went up a mountain yeah felt like

18:49

the freshest cleanest girls in the whole world

18:51

it was gorgeous and that was basically our

18:54

whole time in Bergen was go look at

18:56

some art wander through the snow yeah go

18:58

on a little passenger ferry go back

19:00

on the little passenger ferry ten minutes later

19:02

it's not much to see there sit in

19:05

the hotel bar and play dog yes A

19:07

board game. Also, here's another thing that's changed

19:09

massively for me in Q4, and you

19:11

were a big part of it as part

19:14

of a sort of a subgenre to my

19:16

hosting thing, which is playing a board game

19:18

for the first time in my life

19:20

by choice. Not only by choice. But also,

19:22

when we were on our wait, as we

19:25

were packing for Norway, you texted me and

19:27

said, shall I bring dog? And I was

19:29

like, you're bringing a board game on

19:31

holiday and you're like, I want to bring

19:34

dog. And you brought dog and we played

19:36

dog so much. It's actually not called dog,

19:38

is it? It's called Sparks. So if

19:40

you're interested in like, Goog a game. It's

19:43

not called, that's called Spots. And it is

19:45

great. that's dog-themed. But here is why I

19:47

think many of you will have friends in

19:49

the theater as I do and another

19:51

friends assorted friends who are like really interested

19:54

in board games and live-action role-play games in

19:56

an intense way in like and like everyone

19:58

like really enjoys it and they have

20:00

like separate weekends that I am not involved

20:03

in with with with board games and stuff

20:05

and like I have tried a couple of

20:07

times and it's just I have no judgment

20:09

for it it's just not me I

20:11

just don't have the head for it and

20:14

also kind of keeping a lot of new

20:16

rules in your head I just get anxious

20:18

and fussy and sort of I get really

20:21

insecure and nervous that like my I'm

20:23

being revealed for being dumb and like, oh,

20:25

it just kind of rubbed me up the

20:27

wrong way. It makes me be cranky. I

20:29

don't want any part of it. But

20:31

I've always been a bit jealous of like

20:34

this whole thing that you can just do

20:36

with your pals that like is not drinking

20:38

or just talking shit. It's just like, oh,

20:41

we can all do a little activity

20:43

together. That I've always been jazzed. And then

20:45

you brought spots to my house, which we

20:47

only called Dog. And it's just as very

20:50

simple, but really engaging. kind of game,

20:52

it's a bit like poker or gin rummy,

20:54

but played with dice. It does feel like

20:56

something that in a parallel universe, there a

20:58

casino is built around. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

21:01

It's so, it takes like 10 minutes

21:03

to learn. It's a mixture of luck and

21:05

strategy. You have absolutely transmitted dog all week.

21:07

But I'll come back. I will keep playing

21:10

it. So we've just had this very wholesome

21:12

time in Burgam in this kind of

21:14

like faded mid-century glamour hotel where we played

21:16

dog and we ate things and we drank

21:18

things. This is the other great thing I

21:21

found about Norway and I recognise I'm

21:23

going to say this and I fully understand

21:25

the context in which I say it. Norway

21:27

is famously expensive. Yes. But the famousness of

21:30

its expensiveness is such that I fully came

21:32

here like prepared to be like... going

21:34

to be in debt, you know, I'll be

21:36

selling a kidney. I'll have to take a

21:39

new credit card. I'll take a new, it'll

21:41

be 20 pounds for a water. Yeah.

21:43

No, it mean it is expensive, sure, but

21:45

it's expensive in the way that living in

21:47

London is expensive. And we live in London.

21:50

And I already lived there. I'm a middle-class

21:52

person who lives in London and works

21:54

in the media and I go to festivals.

21:56

And so was I there like, well, well,

21:59

it was really, really really really really really

22:01

cheap, really cheap, really cheap, really cheap,

22:03

really cheap, no. But I found myself saying

22:05

over and over and over and over and

22:07

over and over and over and over and

22:10

over and over and over and over and

22:12

over and over and over and over

22:14

and over again. That's actually quite reasonable, which

22:16

I think probably says more about my life

22:19

than it does about Norway and what it

22:21

is to live in London. So I'm sure

22:23

many people listening to this podcast don't

22:25

live in London will be like, that's insanely

22:27

expensive. You're right. But I'm just saying that

22:30

if you do live in a large metropolitan

22:32

city like London or New York or

22:34

probably Manchester, you'd go to Norway and you'd

22:36

be like, yeah, it's like going to a

22:39

little bit more expensive, but not that much.

22:41

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was quite surprised by

22:43

it. I was no winner as bad

22:45

as I thought it would be. Again, as

22:48

you say, it's the famousness of the expensiveness.

22:50

That's the thing. I, yeah, I fully, like

22:52

New York is so much more expensive.

22:54

I've gone to visit friends and been like,

22:56

I don't understand how people eat here. Yeah,

22:59

yeah, yeah, yeah. All live. Yeah, I get

23:01

it. And like, I think what that comes

23:03

from it also. And it's kind of

23:05

sweet, actually, because it kind of reminds you

23:08

of a time, sort of before playing travel,

23:10

or like ancient times where you would, like,

23:12

you didn't know anybody who'd been to

23:14

France, but you knew of someone who knew

23:16

of someone who went to France, and they

23:19

had ghastly tales of abroad. That's how people

23:21

talk about Scandinavia still because people don't go

23:23

that much. When they do, they tend

23:25

to go for like business or something. You

23:28

don't get that many people going for a

23:30

holiday. And so they come back with a,

23:32

I spend 15 euros on a water bottle

23:35

or whatever. I don't know where they're

23:37

doing that either. However, I'm going to Iceland

23:39

a few years ago. And that was fucking.

23:41

job breaking, it was bad. I do think

23:43

Iceland, maybe it's Iceland just having a

23:45

halo effect on the whole of Scandinavia. Because

23:48

I've been to Copenhagen, I've been to Norway

23:50

now, and I've been like, yeah, it's not,

23:52

it's far from the, if I'd come straight

23:55

from Naples to here, like, you know,

23:57

obviously I'd have died at the expensiveness. Yeah.

23:59

But I've just spent Christmas in London. I

24:01

spent Christmas in London. And I think there's

24:03

also that thing you said to me

24:05

earlier this week, where you were like, well

24:08

there is this kind of reception, particularly among

24:10

British people, but probably many other countries. If

24:12

you go on holiday, it's somewhere hotter and

24:15

cheaper than where you live. And nor

24:17

why is neither of those things. And now

24:19

we got to talk about where we are

24:21

right now. Can we talk about the train

24:23

very briefly? Okay. I know what we've gone

24:26

on about, but I just want to

24:28

say, if you're coming to Norway, get the

24:30

seven and a half hour train. You hear

24:32

seven and a half hours travel and you

24:35

think that's bad? Because seven and a

24:37

half hours in a car? Kill me now.

24:39

Seven and a half hours in a plane?

24:41

I need a week to recover. I need

24:44

a week to recover from it. Seven and

24:46

a half hours on a train winding

24:48

its way through the Norwegian fjords and mountains

24:50

from Bergen to Oslo. Oh, just incredible. I

24:52

didn't say a word to you. We didn't

24:55

speak. No. Oh, well, we did. We

24:57

both had our headphones, and we just looked

24:59

at one of them, and now, wow. Yeah,

25:01

just like, like, like, staring at the window.

25:04

And it didn't, it passed in, like, what

25:06

felt like an hour and a half.

25:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was amazing. So anyway,

25:10

we then got to Oslo, where we didn't

25:12

stay, and we went to a place, another

25:15

place that I found, but it was

25:17

bar. And you were like, cool, I love

25:19

a spa? And I was like, I know,

25:21

we both love a spa. We can we

25:24

deserve a spa for like a day and

25:26

a half, two days at the end

25:28

of our holiday. And I said, well, I've

25:30

looked at all the reviews and only two

25:33

bad reviews or two bad themes in the

25:35

reviews and the themes in the reviews and

25:37

the themes are, one, the spa is

25:39

so big. The spa is a naked spa.

25:41

And the spa. And the spa is a

25:44

naked spa. Yes. Happy to be naked. I'm

25:46

not a prute. I'm naked on a

25:48

holiday situation quite regularly. And I would say

25:50

that, specifically in our friendship, between naked holidays

25:53

we've taken together because whenever we've got this

25:55

is a very secluded sort of lake area

25:57

in France or we sometimes go with

25:59

a group of friends and we're like, why

26:01

would you wear? Why would you wear? Yeah,

26:04

there's nobody around for miles. You're not going

26:06

to swim. So we all just swim

26:08

naked. It's all just swim naked. It's all

26:10

very nymphim feet and feminine and feminine and

26:13

feminine. It's always like you have those days

26:15

and then at night everyone gets really drunk

26:17

and talks about how they really feel

26:19

their womanhood that day. It's that kind of

26:22

a vibe. And so, and also traveling together,

26:24

like so we're very familiar with these bodies,

26:26

there's no shyness there or whatever, very

26:28

naked people. And so when we were, okay,

26:30

this is a naked spat. Like. I was

26:33

thinking it's going to be, yeah, it's going

26:35

to be crunchy. It's going to be crunch.

26:37

Yeah, yeah, not the vibe. The vibe

26:39

is so different to that. I don't even

26:42

know how to describe the vibe other than

26:44

it's like, if you imagine, if you've seen

26:46

the film Spirited Away where there is the

26:48

bathhouse of the spirits and... That'll give

26:50

you a sense of the scale of the

26:53

thing. Yes, size-wise, yes, size and choice. We

26:55

walked around, we walked in, and it's like

26:57

you're in a shopping mall, or maybe

26:59

a West End theatre, but it's all spar.

27:02

And there are different areas, like Disneyland, there's

27:04

Japan, and there's Hammam, and there's Art Deco,

27:06

and there's Art Deco, and there's Waterfall Cave,

27:08

and there's... It's three floors. And we

27:10

sort of wandered around around, like a pair

27:13

of like a pair of like a pair

27:15

of like a pair of like a pair

27:17

of like a pair of like a

27:19

pair of like a pair of like a

27:22

pair of like a pair of like a

27:24

pair of like a pair of like a

27:26

pair of like a pair of like a

27:29

pair of like a pair of like

27:31

a pair of like, like, like, like, like,

27:33

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

27:35

like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

27:39

Look, Scandinavian people are famous for

27:41

good design and being attractive and

27:43

those two things are both in

27:45

evidence. And so I'm largely at

27:47

this bar. Three floors of like

27:49

different sauna steam pools, baths, some

27:51

indoor, some outdoor and everyone's naked

27:53

and they're like I would Let's

27:55

say the average age is about

27:57

27. Yeah. And let's just say

27:59

it, they're mostly heart. They're mostly

28:01

couples. It's mostly couples. And they're

28:03

all heart. They're all hot. And

28:06

also, we obviously did a lot

28:08

of googling around this. There's like,

28:10

this hotel was like built by

28:12

one of the richest men in

28:14

Norway, a famous grocery magnate. Made

28:16

his money in groceries and then

28:18

turned it to Nudespar. But he

28:20

also has disseminated his... private art

28:22

collections throughout the hotel, which is

28:24

mostly of nude men. No nude

28:26

women, I've seen a carpool. But

28:28

like, in Japan. In fake Japan.

28:30

And so it's like, there's a

28:33

lot of penis art, there's a

28:35

lot of like blue light. There's

28:37

a lot of very well lit

28:39

areas. Yes. And also, we haven't

28:41

discussed this yet, but a lot

28:43

of kind of... sort of peeping

28:45

tomery than the way it's built.

28:47

Like for example, you know, it's

28:49

a sauna in steam room so

28:51

you're kind of... There's an entry

28:53

platform. There's an entry platform and

28:55

there's also a showery place where

28:58

you are expected to rinse off

29:00

before and after each thing, but

29:02

like it's always I'm partially obscured

29:04

from view. So if you're walking

29:06

by an angle, you can sort

29:08

of see half of someone's ass

29:10

or tick or tick or cock

29:12

and it's like that kind of

29:14

way in which it encourages encourages

29:16

the thing where it's the thing

29:18

where it's not. It's not sexual,

29:20

but it's also not not sexual.

29:22

It's not that. And they're very

29:25

clear about the fact that it's

29:27

not sexual and I think you

29:29

get in trouble if anything happens.

29:31

Yes. But... But... It's a hotel

29:33

that fucks. It's like, I don't

29:35

know, I just... Even we walked

29:37

into our room, our room has

29:39

a double bed that looks out

29:41

across the Norwegian landscape. It's a

29:43

fuck palace. And we're just sitting

29:45

here in our gym jams recording

29:47

or podcast. I know. It's crazy.

29:50

So crazy. I can't imagine many

29:52

other friends I would do this.

29:54

and feel like as comfortable as

29:56

I do because it's so fucking.

29:58

Everything's so fun. This is like

30:00

where you like clearly take your

30:02

girlfriend or boyfriend. I've also noticed

30:04

like very straight. I haven't seen

30:06

any queer couples, really, very straight

30:08

place. And it's clearly where you

30:10

take your partner like as a

30:12

Christmas gift of being like, hmm,

30:14

time for, we've been with our

30:17

family, time for a sexy time

30:19

away, just for you and I.

30:21

Time away from the kids or

30:23

whatever it is. And it's just

30:25

like, it's humming with couples having

30:27

sex having sex. Yeah, not in

30:29

front of you. No, but you

30:31

know they're having the rooms. You're

30:33

involved in their foreplay. That exactly

30:35

is. You're just sort of the

30:37

backdrop. You're a non-playable character in

30:39

their sex game adventure. Yeah. In

30:41

the back of their non-playable character

30:44

in their sex game. Yeah. And

30:46

you know what? Honored to be

30:48

it. Honestly, no regrets about this.

30:50

Not a single regret in my

30:52

heart about before this place. It's

30:54

fabulous. It's genuinely titulating. Into the

30:56

unknown as we said. Into the

30:58

unknown. And the like, you're like

31:00

lying there and you're like in

31:02

the songa, totally naked. And also

31:04

I spent, because you had to

31:06

do little work today on your

31:09

novel. I did. And I was

31:11

there by myself for about three

31:13

hours today, having a lovely time,

31:15

but like every now and then.

31:17

Just like, oh, there are three

31:19

nude men in this sauna and

31:21

me nude in this sauna. Are

31:23

we all gonna fuck or something?

31:25

And that thought kind of passes

31:27

through you and then it goes

31:29

away again and you're like, huh,

31:31

like. There's no other situation in

31:33

my life where I'd be in

31:36

a room naked with lots of

31:38

other naked attractive people and wouldn't

31:40

think, are we gonna fuck? I

31:42

got a bit of a spook.

31:44

I was there while you were like,

31:47

oh no. Oh no. We really thought,

31:49

yeah, so it was like, I think

31:51

I've quadrupled the number of dongs I've

31:53

seen in the last 10 years. And

31:56

I was like, how have you only

31:58

seen four? There's so many more. There

32:00

are about 300 in here. I've seen

32:03

them all. There was this point where

32:05

we were just trying to, the sheer

32:07

scale of the spa, was like, let's

32:09

walk around all of it and like

32:12

just get our bearings because you could

32:14

get lost very easily in here. So

32:16

easily. And we were like, okay, let's

32:19

try this thing. And it was the

32:21

waterfall cave. And so you walk into

32:23

a dark room. Looks like a cave.

32:25

Like you, like from caves. And

32:28

it's kind of, it's a bit

32:30

of a sort of a walkway

32:32

thing. There's a guided way of

32:34

walking through it. And it's totally

32:36

dark with a few little spotlights,

32:38

but water gushing at you. And

32:40

it's really hard to determine how

32:42

big the space even is. And

32:44

you can just see through the

32:46

spray of water, a man who's

32:48

nude and next to him. Is

32:50

he six feet away from you?

32:52

You can't tell. Because of the

32:54

water blurring your vision. And that's

32:56

a little odd for someone who's

32:58

been in a relationship. Is it

33:01

okay? I'm here. Am I... Is

33:03

this... Is this... Am I cheating?

33:05

Being here? The

33:07

answer is no. And we just like rush

33:09

back up the room and send Gavin a

33:12

really long voice now. Show us getting our

33:14

bearings. And then he voice out on his

33:16

back being like, you girls sound like you've

33:18

seen a natural disaster. Like you've seen a

33:20

landslide that covered a family of badges or

33:23

something, I think he said. And I think

33:25

how it felt. But I think we've really

33:27

settled into it today. We've really found our

33:29

babies. And so if you're listening and you're

33:31

like, like, a fun and interesting adventure holiday

33:34

holiday with my friends. You could do this,

33:36

but just be prepared. But if you're wanting

33:38

to, yeah, have a fun, full-play sex game

33:40

with non-playable characters with your partner, come to

33:42

the well in Oslo, because it seems like

33:44

everyone else is doing this. I'm loving it.

33:47

I would come back. I would come back.

33:49

I'm definitely coming back. And I'm definitely coming

33:51

back. And I'm loving picking up on, I

33:53

actually like being a nonplayable character. I like

33:55

picking up on the residual horniness. in the

33:58

privacy of their room. And I think that's

34:00

nice. It's so nice. It's just, it's been

34:02

a lovely experience. And just a very well

34:04

appointed hotel. Yeah. And if I may say

34:06

so, quite reasonably priced. Quite reasonably priced. Like,

34:09

it would be good with the same in

34:11

London. Yeah, I mean, this is less good.

34:13

It would be waited on us. Well, like,

34:15

the people who'd be there, terrible. It really

34:17

helps that we don't know if anyone's annoying

34:20

because they're all speaking or knowing because they're

34:22

all speaking or knowing because they're all speaking

34:24

or knowing because they're all speaking or knowing

34:26

because they're all speaking or region because they're

34:28

all speaking or region because they're all speaking

34:30

or region because they're all speaking or region

34:33

because they're all speaking or region. Like this

34:35

is like 240 a night I believe? Yeah.

34:37

So I think so. And the three floor

34:39

spa experience is completely free. There are no

34:41

crazy extras. No breakfast is free. Obviously you

34:44

can buy a massage if you want. But

34:46

why would you? You've got three floors and

34:48

spa. You'll never do it all. Like when

34:50

you consider that's all built in, it's kind

34:52

of a fucking steel. Like the breakfast

34:55

is very good. It's extensive.

34:57

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35:55

So there we go. That's where we

35:57

are. We've been to the Bergen, we've

35:59

been, we're now at Oslo. And what

36:01

have we watched this week? Well. A

36:03

real, a real, um, sort of sharp

36:05

turn here. Yes. From The Naked's Bar

36:08

and Oslo, too, the film topic for

36:10

tonight. Yeah, so what everyone else has

36:12

been fucking in their room. We have

36:14

been watching the 1991 movie Hook in

36:16

Parts, because that movie is surprisingly long.

36:18

I'd say Lord of the Rings length.

36:21

It's like two and a half hours.

36:23

Yeah. And I love every single frame

36:25

of it. And it was my first

36:27

time seeing it. Yeah, and we actually,

36:29

I went up watching it because I

36:31

remember in our Tortured Poets Department episode

36:34

a long time ago, we talked about

36:36

the song Peter. And you said how

36:38

you find songs that are about the

36:40

Peter Pan myth or even like any

36:42

kind of fan fiction or whatever around

36:44

Peter Pan myth as being essentially kind

36:47

of like empty for you. And that

36:49

you don't think that the myth really

36:51

holds much. I didn't think that Peter

36:53

Pan as a story was robust enough

36:55

and like. Texted enough and rich enough

36:57

to hold songs and you said I

37:00

don't think they're thinking about Peter Pan

37:02

the book or even the like film

37:04

adaptations I think They're dealing with it.

37:06

They're involving hook in the cannon and

37:08

now I've seen the film hook to

37:10

Tear to break the magic Tear the

37:12

magic here, but we did just finish

37:15

watching it because we're having to do

37:17

things out of continuity in tonight's podcast

37:19

And listening back to both amazing Peter

37:21

song and the Taylor Swift song I

37:23

can confirm that they're both about the

37:25

film hook I would die on that

37:28

hill. Yes. Those two girls are singing

37:30

about the film hook. Yes. The 1991

37:32

classic by Steven. Taylor Swift may listen

37:34

to this podcast but I know Maisey

37:36

Peter definitely does sometimes. Oh! Maisey listen.

37:38

Maisey's an acquaintance and and Maisee if

37:41

if your song Wendy on your album

37:43

The Good Witch will be listening to

37:45

a lot on this holiday and a

37:47

fantastic album. Actually the whole album yeah.

37:49

If that is about the film hook.

37:51

Please tell us. Please, because we think

37:54

it is. And Taylor, if you're listening,

37:56

I know you'll never tell us, but

37:58

I don't know. Send us a sign.

38:00

Put something in the post. And we'll

38:02

Easter Egg somewhere for us, because we

38:04

think it's about hook. And I'm going

38:07

to get into why I think those

38:09

two songs are about hook after the

38:11

break. when we come back to talk

38:13

about Hook. All right, see that. Peter

38:15

Pan's got kids. Wild. I love this

38:17

movie so, so much and I want

38:20

to thank you for tolerating what was

38:22

quite an intense and extreme love that

38:24

really I made your problem throughout the

38:26

watching of this movie which took place

38:28

over two days. I would say you

38:30

were weeping for 60% of this film.

38:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's a

38:35

conservative estimate. Yeah. And there were moments

38:37

that I was really confused by. Could

38:39

you use by the one with something

38:41

on screen? I confused by why I

38:43

was crying. Your glass on your own

38:45

weeping. The best one for me, or

38:48

like the most confusing, was when in

38:50

the final scenes of this film. Yeah.

38:52

that Peter Pan is reunited with Wendy

38:54

and you just turned to me, you

38:56

gripped my hand and he said, they're

38:58

both dead, and started weeping. And I

39:01

was like, what have I missed? Are

39:03

we about to be non-eared? What's going

39:05

up then? Is this all a dream?

39:07

They all die. And then I realized

39:09

you were talking about the actors Robin

39:11

Williams and Maggie Smith. You hadn't made

39:14

that clear, so I was really dead.

39:16

They're all dead! They're all dead! I

39:18

was just there. So many people are

39:20

there so missing. Which I guess is

39:22

how time works. Yeah. And again, I

39:24

think, yeah, probably because this film is

39:27

34 years old now. I was like,

39:29

yeah. Yeah, they are. It's okay, they're

39:31

dead. It's okay, Bob Hoskins is dead.

39:33

How is he? Bob Hoskins is so

39:35

dead. Didn't have spotted that. Sad. Yeah.

39:37

It's hard because when they live on

39:40

in film, how are you supposed to

39:42

know? How are you supposed to know?

39:44

Well indeed. You're supposed to read the

39:46

newspaper or something? Check the obits? I

39:48

don't know. You sound like a Victorian

39:50

who's been taking from the past and

39:52

put into a modern day. Well how

39:55

much boating though? Very disgusting. Yeah, I

39:57

did, but you, it really was, I

39:59

was quite a worldwide and like for

40:01

me as a first time hook watcher.

40:03

Yeah. Like some things. I think the

40:05

film I'll watch again, I really enjoyed

40:08

it. Some bits I was like this

40:10

hasn't aged well, but that's of course

40:12

a film from the 90s. Yeah. Really

40:14

not into lawyers or being fat in

40:16

this film, are they? I think the

40:18

heroism to being fat in this film.

40:21

Apart from the about time when they

40:23

make loads of jokes about it over

40:25

and over all about being a lawyer.

40:27

But there is a heroism to a

40:29

certain extent. Yeah. Very early 90s in

40:31

that respect. Yes. But I think what

40:34

makes what makes me so... I was

40:36

really trying to parse why this film

40:38

makes me so incredibly emotional and why

40:40

almost every frame of it makes me

40:42

cry. The thing of like, because it's

40:44

not even that Robin Williams is dead

40:47

and there's so much like illusions to

40:49

like, oh, you know, the whole to

40:51

die would be an awfully grounded mentor

40:53

and living would be a great venture.

40:55

Like that's obviously, that can really hit

40:57

you, particularly when you think about his

41:00

life and his death and that's sad.

41:02

But there's something in the quality of

41:04

the film itself. that makes me really

41:06

upset. And I think, when I was

41:08

really, when I was in the spa

41:10

alone today, looking at 5,000 corks, I

41:13

really wanted to think to myself, why

41:15

does it make me upset? And I

41:17

think it's because, like, I would say

41:19

that most people don't enjoy childhood. Like,

41:21

like, I'm separating that out from the

41:23

idea of, like, Having a happy childhood

41:25

or having a sad child or having

41:28

good or bad things happen to me

41:30

or having good or bad parents Like

41:32

I know I had great parents and

41:34

everything and like All that I just

41:36

also know that I was a person

41:38

who was not made to enjoy being

41:41

a child Like I remember at the

41:43

time thinking this bit sucks and like

41:45

I need to get through this bit

41:47

Like did you feel that way about

41:49

being a child? Yeah, and I feel

41:51

like a good proportion of people probably

41:54

felt about three Yeah, it's fucking sick.

41:56

Oh yeah, that is sick. Do you

41:58

know what I mean? It's the joke

42:00

about like you get up, your mom's

42:02

made your favorite breakfast, you're carried... down

42:04

stairs, you're put in front of the

42:07

telly, and then you just lose your

42:09

absolute shit because you're a toddler. Like

42:11

that's your life. People are just trying

42:13

to, you were Emperor Baby until you

42:15

were three. At that point, you're suddenly

42:17

expected to be a person. And from

42:20

then to about maybe 18 to 20.

42:22

It's a real harsh joke. Like the

42:24

lack of control is terrible. You have

42:26

control over no part of your life.

42:28

You barely have control of your own

42:30

body and emotions. A lot of it's

42:33

going on. Your peers are mean to

42:35

you, your siblings are mean to you.

42:37

People expect you to know things, you

42:39

don't know those things yet. It's just

42:41

like a bad time. And like, you

42:43

know, separated out from whether or not

42:45

you had an individually good experience of

42:48

childhood, whether or not you enjoyed being

42:50

a child at all, I think is

42:52

a separate thing. And I think for

42:54

a lot of people when they think

42:56

of child, I think of a sort

42:58

of a sense of pain comes to

43:01

them. And it's a pain they feel

43:03

ashamed of because you're not supposed to

43:05

feel that way about being a child.

43:07

And so you, because it is a

43:09

thing we idealize in our culture, it's

43:11

something we protect and like so much

43:14

of like, you know. Yeah, so much

43:16

of children's media and family media is

43:18

all about it being a magical time

43:20

and so many people don't feel that

43:22

way about that time. And so there

43:24

is a thing that you do where

43:27

you sort of separate yourself out from

43:29

that person. You forget that those memories

43:31

are memories and you play them in

43:33

your head like they're a film. And

43:35

you just sort of be like, that

43:37

was kind of a different thing, and

43:40

you don't connect your child's self to

43:42

your adult self. And Hook is a

43:44

movie about the perils of forgetting you

43:46

were a child at all, and like,

43:48

of like putting those memories so far

43:50

away from yourself, that you're like, no,

43:53

no, no, that was like, that whole

43:55

thing of like Peter forgetting. who he

43:57

used to be Peter Pan and he

43:59

was the kind of leader of this

44:01

band of last boys and he was

44:03

a heroic fearless leader and then he

44:05

comes back and nobody recognizes him and

44:08

he can't remember any of it and

44:10

then like this moment that like I'm

44:12

sure upset lots of people but like

44:14

one of the last boys like just

44:16

pushes back all the kind of cheeks

44:18

and jowls of an adult face and

44:21

he says oh there you are Peter

44:23

yeah and it's that reminder that like

44:25

that person is like still there and

44:27

like how painful that is Does

44:30

that look at you at all? Yeah.

44:32

I guess. Yeah. I don't know, I

44:34

think, I think again, it's one of

44:36

those things where, because I'm extensively therapist,

44:38

and so much of therapy is about

44:41

revisiting your child's self and kind of

44:43

remembering who you might have felt and

44:45

developing a sympathy for this little kid

44:47

who didn't know what was going on.

44:49

Yeah. I don't know, I think I

44:51

think I can see why it's affecting

44:54

in that way, but also I feel

44:56

like I have spent so much time

44:58

sitting in my therapist's office being like,

45:00

God, that probably sucked for poor little

45:02

me. And like, and trying to do

45:04

that work, that it is. Yeah, I

45:07

think it hits me differently. Yes, I

45:09

thought it was very beautifully done, but

45:11

I don't think it had the same

45:13

kind of like suck a punch to

45:15

the ribs. Yeah. Is this your way

45:17

of settling like, I have to go

45:20

to therapy? I don't want to! You

45:22

might enjoy it, just face off that

45:24

thing you just said about a beat

45:26

of that. And feeling very good. And

45:28

feeling very disconnected from like the child

45:30

that you were. Like, but I think

45:33

it is easy. I think it's very

45:35

easy to forget the child that you

45:37

were, but you were, but also. There's

45:39

something about forgetting the child that you

45:41

were and then remembering that but there

45:43

is also something there about kind of

45:45

I think almost the thing that I

45:48

found more affecting most the responsibility adults

45:50

have to children. Yes. To to kind

45:52

of create that space because childhood is

45:54

like a rel- like not biological childhood

45:56

has always existed. but like cultural childhood

45:58

is a relatively modern invention and in

46:01

fact the time at which Peter Pan

46:03

is written by Jay and Barry. That's

46:05

still like, we're talking like 20 or

46:07

30 years into the point in time

46:09

in history in Britain at least where

46:11

the idea of childhood as a kind

46:14

of sacred space, a protected state where

46:16

you couldn't be I don't know sent

46:18

to work up a chimney for example.

46:20

Or in a factory or in a

46:22

factory is still so new. And like

46:24

this is a time where the idea

46:27

that someone wrote a book. all about

46:29

the pricing childhood and thinking about the

46:31

great adventure of it and the imagination

46:33

of children and the power that children

46:35

have to sort of see things differently.

46:37

It was so new and so fresh

46:40

and what this film does for me

46:42

so beautifully is to take that idea

46:44

and put it in the late 20th

46:46

century and remind people that actually they

46:48

still have to do that. Like that

46:50

doesn't just happen. Kids don't just get

46:53

like just by virtue of being children

46:55

yet a childhood and I think particularly

46:57

if we look at... Global affairs at

46:59

this point in time, we're more aware

47:01

than ever that not everyone gets to

47:03

be a kid that way and we

47:06

have a responsibility to children to hold

47:08

that space for them and to treat

47:10

them carefully and to remember that they

47:12

have little dreams and little desires and

47:14

that they will be crushed if their

47:16

parents and the people around them don't

47:19

look after them. And I think maybe

47:21

I saw it more from that side.

47:23

I think seeing Peter and his relationship

47:25

with his kids and him realizing that

47:27

he wants to provide for them and

47:29

he wants to be like the big

47:31

shot lawyer and do all the stuff.

47:34

his kids don't get the fuck about

47:36

that they just want him to be

47:38

there and they want to see him

47:40

they want to have fun with him

47:42

and play with him yeah and I

47:44

have so many friends and family members

47:47

with kids now and I just love

47:49

watching them and being like seeing how

47:51

much they enjoy hanging out with their

47:53

kids yeah which I don't think would

47:55

have been true in like the mid

47:57

19th century it's or even the early

48:00

90s really Like, I know we talk

48:02

a lot about the things that COVID

48:04

robbed us as a generation, but I

48:06

think, you know, so many people I

48:08

know, millennials became parents in and around

48:10

COVID. really was the first generation on

48:13

mass of fathers who were there for

48:15

every step of their child's life. Like,

48:17

Patleave is a relatively recent thing. And

48:19

even then, it was mostly sort of

48:21

six, eight weeks or something, if you

48:23

were lucky. But like for the first

48:26

time, we got a whole generation of

48:28

men who saw their baby take their

48:30

first steps or laugh for the first

48:32

time, because they were right there. And

48:34

like yeah, yeah, maybe all of them

48:36

did a great job, but all the

48:39

guys I know have done a great

48:41

job, you know. I think there's a

48:43

lot more great jobs happening. Yeah. I

48:45

mean, I spent Christmas with my family,

48:47

including my brother and my sister-in-law, who

48:49

I love, I'm my nephew, who I

48:52

love, and just seeing that little guy.

48:54

He's three years old. I was having

48:56

a cracking, who I love, and just

48:58

seeing that little guy. He's always always

49:00

having a cracking childhood of the kids

49:02

of the 90s. Maybe didn't always have.

49:04

I think we both had really good

49:07

ones, but I was saying, but that

49:09

kind of playfulness is something that is

49:11

almost not new, but there's more of

49:13

a focus on it now. Neither us

49:15

are parents, so we're just kind of

49:17

like observing on the sidelines, but I

49:20

think if I look at my friends

49:22

now and the way they play with

49:24

their kids, it feels like there's more

49:26

room for that than their paps would

49:28

have been at the end of the

49:30

last century. And I like that. I

49:33

love it and like when we get

49:35

dropped into hook it's like it drops

49:37

you into it extremely like familiar very

49:39

90s thing of like my dad's a

49:41

lawyer in a job and he doesn't

49:43

come to my big game. The phone

49:46

owns him even though phones were really

49:48

new back then. Yeah. Do you know

49:50

what I mean? His relationship with his

49:52

phone? Terrifying because that thing can only

49:54

can only call. I can't even know

49:56

text let alone the internet. Yeah. Like

49:59

now the phones own us, but back

50:01

then... The phones already own some people.

50:03

It was sort of like, my God,

50:05

did we even understand how much the

50:07

phones would own us in the future?

50:09

But yeah, it's very 90. It's very

50:12

early start and there's... What I think

50:14

is really lovely. I really do think

50:16

this is a movie that like, I

50:18

don't really, this is really my main

50:20

entry point to the lore of Peter

50:22

Pan, like I've seen this film maybe

50:25

three or four times. I have very

50:27

dim memories of the cartoon and I've

50:29

never read the books. or seen a

50:31

stage play. So I'm not really, like

50:33

the shape of the original Peter Pan

50:35

myth is very clear to me. It's

50:38

a play. It's a play. It's pretty,

50:40

it's pretty slender. Yeah, I know that,

50:42

I know why it's important, but it

50:44

was never important to me. And like

50:46

the way it starts with Maggie playing

50:48

Wendy in a school play, and we

50:50

get this sense of like, oh, this

50:53

is like, you know. This is the

50:55

world that we know very well, and

50:57

like in this world Peter Pan's as

50:59

big as it is everywhere. And like,

51:01

but then we get this sort of

51:03

slow weaving of like, oh no, this

51:06

particular family have this relationship to Peter

51:08

Pan, that's really important and really deep.

51:10

I think the way that that is

51:12

done in this movie is so gorgeous.

51:14

Like... I really, it's a long film,

51:16

it's overly long. Yeah. I, I, so

51:19

the reason I was mmming like that

51:21

is I was like, it's gorgeous, but

51:23

then it also becomes quite weird. Oh

51:25

yeah, but I love that it's weird.

51:27

It feels very studio ghibli and it's

51:29

weirdness I think. That's true. It does

51:32

not feel like a Steven Spielberg film.

51:34

It's the weirdness of the, you know,

51:36

Maggie Smith and Robin Williams. Yeah. and

51:38

who we don't yet know is Peter

51:40

Powell, you obviously do because that's his

51:42

call. You know, but you don't know

51:45

why. But she talks about how when

51:47

they were growing up in London together

51:49

with Granny Wendy and how they shared

51:51

a bedroom and I was like, is

51:53

he married to his cousin? And you

51:55

were like, no. And then later Maggie

51:58

Smith turns up and Maggie Smith's kind

52:00

of, kind of sexually solicitous towards her

52:02

adoptive grandson. And it all becomes very

52:04

clear, but like there is, it's this,

52:06

like they're so woven into the mythology,

52:08

but they don't bother explaining that straight

52:11

off. So you're kind of left as

52:13

a new viewer coming in without any

52:15

childhood like knowledge of the film, being

52:17

like, what? It's very absorbing. It's very

52:19

engaging. And like, I was like, what

52:21

on earth is going, what kind of

52:23

flowers in the attic shit am I

52:26

watching watching? Totally! And like, but it's

52:28

the it's the it's the weirdness and

52:30

the not explaining of the weirdness that

52:32

makes it feel all the more woven

52:34

in it and like yeah believable and

52:36

they it just has me right away

52:39

and like Yeah, sorry, I'm darning around

52:41

that first bit, but I do think

52:43

that first sort of like movement of

52:45

the film, even though it does move

52:47

quite slowly, it's some of my favorite

52:49

parts of the film, of like, he's

52:52

this like really neurotic, anxious staff, he's

52:54

quite like, you know, short with his

52:56

kids, and then there's a really funny

52:58

part when they're on the plane and

53:00

he's afraid of flying. Oh, yeah, and

53:02

his daughter does a picture. and they

53:05

all have parachutes except him. And he's

53:07

just falling and you're like creepy. Your

53:09

daughter is, you know, resigning you to

53:11

a watery death in the ocean. Yeah,

53:13

yeah, yeah. But she always knew he

53:15

could fly. Yeah. Presumably they never say

53:18

it. They never say it allowed. No,

53:20

it's very subtle and then we kind

53:22

of slowly get this kind of weaving

53:24

of like, yeah, they grew up in

53:26

Maggie Smith who's Granny Wendy Wendy in

53:28

her house that appears to be in

53:31

Westminster. I was looking at the final

53:33

shot of the film, I'm putting it

53:35

near St. James's Park, probably quite close

53:37

to Downing Street. Gorgeous. Love if it

53:39

was a house to be. From the

53:41

original Big Ben thing, but yeah, it's

53:44

not a cheap area to live. So

53:46

I would say the house that they

53:48

filmed in doesn't look like it was

53:50

there. Getting deep into the architecture, I

53:52

work around there. There's nothing that looks

53:54

like that looks like that. But yeah,

53:57

so she lives in Westminster. So she's

53:59

absolutely minting. donating wings to great on

54:01

the street hospital and fairness. So like

54:03

we know that. And she and the

54:05

whole kind of lore of her in

54:07

the real world is that you know

54:09

her and her brothers had these stories

54:12

Jay and Barry lived next door and

54:14

which I actually love because we know

54:16

that Jay and Barry was inspired by

54:18

real children he knew yeah and and

54:20

and that she has been made famous

54:22

through this she has used that fame.

54:25

She's philanthropist she's helped to kind of

54:27

she's channeled her life into finding homes

54:29

for orphaned children and supporting the greater

54:31

one street hospital which is also a

54:33

lovely touch because of course the royalties

54:35

from Peter Pan were assigned to the

54:38

hospital in perpetuity I think there was

54:40

a legal battle about it recently I

54:42

have no idea if they still get

54:44

them but Jane Barry was very keen

54:46

their state to make sure that they

54:48

got all that very beautiful thing where

54:51

tying it in and we have all

54:53

these lovely scenes in London which is

54:55

very like We discussed this about when

54:57

we were doing continental garbage, we did

54:59

so much, you know, how Americans or

55:01

how the English see Europe and what

55:04

we think of mainland Europe is like...

55:06

magical things that like magical places for

55:08

the American filmmaker and the American viewer

55:10

and like what we think Italy can

55:12

do for us what we think France

55:14

can do for us. But we never

55:17

looked at what we think Britain can

55:19

do. Yes and so this was such

55:21

a twinkly idealized version of London and

55:23

like at one point Moira says London's

55:25

a magical place for children and you

55:27

and I went there! What the fuck!

55:30

I guess. Maybe it was in the

55:32

1920s, but I don't think in the

55:34

late 90s it was. But I think

55:36

this film gives you just a little

55:38

bit of London that you're like, oh

55:40

London, perhaps it could be romantic and

55:42

nice, no. And then it sends you

55:45

somewhere else. But it does have that

55:47

little bit of it, of that kind

55:49

of, yeah. That grandeur I think, it's

55:51

an old world grandeur, it's an old

55:53

world grandeur. That touches a bit, it

55:55

do exist and we know that it

55:58

can exist, maybe not that exact house

56:00

in that exact place, but the idea

56:02

of them going to this great ball

56:04

function for the Grey Oram Street Hospital

56:06

and him giving this speech back. so

56:08

all right so I don't want to

56:11

frustrate anyone by like going to Europe

56:13

to rediscover their ancestral homes. Okay so

56:15

all right so I don't want to

56:17

frustrate anyone by like going on a

56:19

little diversion for a minute but do

56:21

it. Okay we're going to keep this

56:24

really short. I love Americans. I also

56:26

love them. I have many American friends.

56:28

I do. But there is a certain

56:30

kind of American traveler that when they

56:32

go abroad, they want to talk to

56:34

you so much and they do not

56:37

want to ask questions and they do

56:39

not want to listen. Like, guys, like

56:41

I know so many American Tiktakie girlies

56:43

and like everyone planning their next European

56:45

trip and saying things like, oh, they're

56:47

so rude to Americans here. The only

56:50

thing you have to do to be

56:52

liked by anyone in Europe is ask

56:54

a question and listen to the answer

56:56

and then maybe ask another question and

56:58

then maybe you can say a few

57:00

things about yourself. But the way Americans

57:03

will just monologue to you about their

57:05

lives you don't care about and how

57:07

they will weave in like ancestral... I

57:09

know this is a cliche and we're

57:11

all bored of hearing it. But we

57:13

met a girl in Bergen who was

57:16

so extreme about her ancestral ties to

57:18

Ireland. She did say an ancient kingdom

57:20

and I thought you die a bit

57:22

inside. I died a bit. So she

57:24

was like, oh my God, I was

57:26

just in Ireland. There, we were in

57:28

this restaurant. We were like, we're going

57:31

to spend a nice amount of money

57:33

on a lovely fish restaurant. in Bergen

57:35

and we sat down and there was

57:37

this girl who was sitting next to

57:39

us who was eating alone and she

57:41

sort of you know made casual chat

57:44

with us and I was like oh

57:46

well she's eating alone we'll chat to

57:48

her a little bit she seemed sweet

57:50

and then very immediately she was like

57:52

oh I just came from Ireland I

57:54

was like oh great where did you

57:57

go? I was like oh Dublin and

57:59

I was like okay well I have

58:01

family there I was like oh where

58:03

and she was like Well, you know,

58:05

it's not contemporary Ireland. I was like,

58:07

oh God. She was like, I'm related

58:10

to one of the ancient kingdoms of

58:12

Ireland. And I was like, okay. And

58:14

then she said, do you know Anne

58:16

Boleyn? And I went, yeah. And she

58:18

was like, you know, Mary, like, she

58:20

had a sister. And she said, her

58:23

voice dropped confidentially. And she said, she

58:25

had a sister. And I heard you

58:27

go, the other Benin Go. Like the

58:29

other Bolinger like its new information and

58:31

then she was like so I'm kin

58:33

to her and I was like hang

58:36

on you're telling me that you're related

58:38

to an ancient kingdom of Ireland that

58:40

also housed Mary Bolin the other Bolinger

58:42

who was I believe that is what

58:44

happened who was in the 16th century

58:46

15th century one of those 15 or

58:49

16th but not ancient Ireland No, it's

58:51

quite a lot earlier, isn't it? Quite

58:53

a lot, anyway. By that point, yeah,

58:55

Ireland had already been aggressively fucked up

58:57

by the English. Yes, yes. It was

58:59

quite, it was, it was, it was

59:01

a moment, and I think it was

59:04

like, again, in other respects, a very

59:06

sweet woman and a love of time

59:08

was had, it was just when we

59:10

kind of left that interaction, having a

59:12

nice time, and were like, sometimes. Sometimes

59:14

someone needs to tell the American tourists

59:17

this little truth. Yeah, just I'm amazed

59:19

they haven't heard it already better. They

59:21

will have a better time when they're

59:23

on holiday. They'll have a better time

59:25

because like sometimes like you meet Americans

59:27

and they're like oh my god my

59:30

great aunt was from Wicklow and you're

59:32

like cool like I mean I understand

59:34

that America has a short history and

59:36

the and the desire to look into

59:38

your ancestry is great. But do not

59:40

be telling me about ancient kingdoms and

59:43

the other Boolean girl I beg. And

59:45

if you're going to have an history,

59:47

it should be something like, actually, my

59:49

grandmother is Wendy, and I'm Peter Pan.

59:51

Yes. If she said, I am the

59:53

other bullying girl, I'd have been like,

59:56

I'm all ears, tell me more. But

59:58

then when we were watching... want

1:00:00

to hear this vivid hallucination. Being

1:00:02

so and then you just that

1:00:04

thing and then you just sit in us just

1:00:06

my hook and you being going and be

1:00:08

to oh it's find their ancient

1:00:11

ancestry, their going to to

1:00:13

find their that don't

1:00:15

exist. belonging to magical kingdoms

1:00:17

that don't what I said and I

1:00:19

stand by it. stand by it. It is,

1:00:21

but what's nice, because it's it's it's if it

1:00:23

it was literally be annoying, but because

1:00:25

it's about fiction, it's fine. it's fine. That

1:00:27

is much better. It's so much

1:00:30

better. The first instance in which an

1:00:32

American actually has an interesting actually has

1:00:34

Europe. I loved it. I was very

1:00:36

happy with that. I was very happy with that. What

1:00:38

I was shocked by though when the

1:00:41

ancestral kingdom first emerged,

1:00:43

was the identity of

1:00:45

the actor Tinkerbell. Julia Roberts.

1:00:47

really fell off my chair, cause you don't see

1:00:50

who she is is the first couple of

1:00:52

minutes. of minutes. yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little sort

1:00:54

of glowing thing flying around, of kind of

1:00:56

looking very androgynous and speaking in quite an

1:00:58

androgynous way. an And then suddenly it's Julia

1:01:00

Roberts. And then suddenly it's Julia Roberts.

1:01:03

Yes, fell off my chair. In the worst In

1:01:05

the worst wig I've ever seen her in in

1:01:07

her entire acting career. career. Yeah, a Yeah, a

1:01:09

little fright wig, a little -muffin -fright wig. discussed a

1:01:11

lot We discussed a of the in this movie. Because

1:01:14

of Tinkerbell in this movie is a

1:01:16

little sex Tinkerbell is a little sex

1:01:18

kitten. Like really fucked out what what they

1:01:20

were thinking there. Like obviously Disney princesses are

1:01:22

are always hot, Tinkerbell I guess they're

1:01:24

always beautiful, but Tinkerbell is sexy.

1:01:26

sexy. Yeah and she's tiny. She's

1:01:28

tiny and sexy, and she's wearing

1:01:31

the dress that goes just about

1:01:33

cover to knickers and knickers. Yeah, so I guess it's a bit

1:01:35

weird. a bit weird. doesn't Sabrina Carpenter and Sabrina

1:01:37

Carpenter is dressed up as her. is

1:01:39

dressed up as her enough, fair I would Yeah,

1:01:41

yeah, and then so I guess when they decided

1:01:43

to characterize Julie Then, as so

1:01:46

I guess when they decided to like fucking weird

1:01:48

if we made they were sexy be fucking weird

1:01:50

if we made her really sexy, of

1:01:52

if she's a human woman because

1:01:54

of the way animated film to animated film

1:01:56

to a family -friendly audience. the just something

1:01:58

in the translation. actually I I think that's

1:02:00

translation is worth discussing in other places

1:02:02

as well because it's like interestingly done

1:02:05

and well done in some places and

1:02:07

badly done a lot of places. Yes

1:02:09

yes definitely. But I think they were

1:02:12

just like okay let's just sort of

1:02:14

make her sort of androgynous sort of

1:02:17

pixie of story books and she almost

1:02:19

looks like illustrations of Peter himself. Yeah

1:02:21

so that's the thing I was really

1:02:24

struck by there's that you see this

1:02:26

illustration of Wendy's. I think that Tinkerbell

1:02:28

has a very unstable sense of

1:02:30

self. Yes. And she's kind of mirroring

1:02:33

the people around her and that's why

1:02:35

she's trying to understand herself because she's

1:02:37

a tiny pixie in a big old

1:02:40

world like a child. Yeah. And I

1:02:42

think actually Julia Roberts plays her really

1:02:44

well. Very well. Like a hard role.

1:02:47

And this was her first flop. I

1:02:49

mean it's worth saying at this point,

1:02:51

no. It was a lot of people's

1:02:54

first flop. Yes, it was Spielberg's first

1:02:56

flop and Robin Williams' first flopop. And

1:02:58

they all flop together like the spath.

1:03:01

Just... They all flops together there.

1:03:03

Five thousand dogs! Like some real odd

1:03:05

cameos in there. Yeah, and yeah, you

1:03:07

were reading a list of cameos to

1:03:10

me earlier. George Lucas cameo Phil Collins

1:03:12

plays the police detective when the kids

1:03:14

go missing. Gwyneth Paltrow? Yes, as teenage

1:03:17

Wendy, Glenn Close. That one was very,

1:03:19

very surprising because when Glenn Close turned

1:03:21

up. Yeah. I was, like, I looked

1:03:24

and I was just like, there's something

1:03:26

about this pirate that... I can't place

1:03:28

him. It's extraordinary. It's going close. That's

1:03:31

why. It's going close. It's quite extraordinary

1:03:33

how many people are in it. And

1:03:35

I suppose that if you think

1:03:37

about all of those actors, it would

1:03:40

have been sort of boomers really. They're

1:03:42

all older actors, you know, and they

1:03:44

would have very much grown up with

1:03:47

like seeing Peter Pan in the theater

1:03:49

on the radio or on TV. And

1:03:51

Peter Pan was such a huge thing

1:03:54

for that generation specifically as being one

1:03:56

of the first like mass childrens. thing

1:03:58

of the fit like you know that

1:04:01

era of televised children's entertainment and so

1:04:03

it makes sense and also Spielberg I

1:04:06

imagine he was just able to loop

1:04:08

people in really easily but then when

1:04:10

you think of all that time

1:04:12

and effort all the pathos and ingenious

1:04:15

writing and staging and everything that went

1:04:17

into this and then it flapped so

1:04:19

hard and people hated it why did

1:04:22

they hated at the time was it

1:04:24

because it was so far from pizza

1:04:26

pan pizza pan Do we

1:04:28

know? Do you have any contemporaneous accounts

1:04:31

of its flop? Yes, so I always,

1:04:33

whenever, yeah, I'm researching a movie, I

1:04:35

always check the Roger Ebert review. Ah,

1:04:37

because he's been around forever, he reviewed

1:04:39

everything and he was frequently correct when

1:04:42

other people were incorrect and he didn't

1:04:44

like the movie. And a large part

1:04:46

of why he didn't like it, I

1:04:48

actually do understand and that he felt

1:04:50

like, and again, he would have grown

1:04:53

up with Peter Pan as well, so.

1:04:55

the original myth would have been so

1:04:57

dear to him in a way it

1:04:59

wasn't dear to me and a large

1:05:01

part of his review is him saying

1:05:04

I always imagine like Neverland is like

1:05:06

a verdant beautiful place of my imagination

1:05:08

and it looks like this cheap terrible

1:05:10

arid movie set and I was like

1:05:13

oh I actually do get that it

1:05:15

doesn't look beautiful. Neverland, no. And it's

1:05:17

kind of sweet to think of like

1:05:19

middle-age film critics 921 being like it's

1:05:21

not my Neverland, you know, it's sort

1:05:24

of sweet. Because like I mean this

1:05:26

is something I know you and I

1:05:28

are really fascinated by and something I

1:05:30

know we hope to cover more and

1:05:32

sentimental garbage in the future is like

1:05:35

just how fantasy storytelling is rendered on

1:05:37

screen like I do think that's like

1:05:39

a thing that has completely been revolutionized

1:05:41

by Just advances in technology. Yes, you

1:05:43

can do fantasy now in a way

1:05:46

that you could not do fantasy. Yeah,

1:05:48

it was hard to do fantasy. Yes,

1:05:50

I'm not saying it was never done

1:05:52

well. Yeah, but it was mostly done

1:05:54

quite badly And also it required a

1:05:57

contract from the audience that was harder

1:05:59

for them to sign. So like, they're

1:06:01

called classics that everybody remembers. labyrinth and

1:06:03

the princess bride and all these things

1:06:05

and like I think hook has now

1:06:08

entered into that pantheon but like it

1:06:10

took a long time for it to

1:06:12

enter it yeah and of like you

1:06:14

know, things are practical effects and they're

1:06:17

cheaply done, they're done on sets or

1:06:19

they're done on location in Ireland or

1:06:21

something. And it's like, you know, you

1:06:23

look at the Princess Party, it's, it

1:06:25

kind of makes fun of its own

1:06:28

effects, like the rodents of unusual size.

1:06:30

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of camp,

1:06:32

but like people adore it and they

1:06:34

completely are lost in the majesty of

1:06:36

it. But that era of fantasy storytelling

1:06:39

for kids was just... Quite rudimentary in

1:06:41

budget and in scale and in resources.

1:06:43

And then you get that breakthrough of

1:06:45

Lord of the Rings in 2001. Well,

1:06:47

I was literally just looking up when

1:06:50

the Lord of the Rings happened. It's

1:06:52

only 10 years between those two films.

1:06:54

Yeah. Not a huge amount of time.

1:06:56

And Lord of the Rings, you could

1:06:58

look at Lord of the Rings, fellowship

1:07:01

with the ring now, and if you

1:07:03

made it, very, very different. Yes. Like,

1:07:05

the movie doesn't need a remake because

1:07:07

of the talent. No, it would be

1:07:09

impossible to remake it. But, it goes

1:07:12

as far as to say. Yeah, with

1:07:14

the same kind of bill of talent

1:07:16

would be impossible to find. But like,

1:07:18

in terms of the look of the

1:07:20

film, if that got an update in

1:07:23

the way that Wicked looks or whatever,

1:07:25

I think it would be incredible. But

1:07:27

yeah, at this point, it was just

1:07:29

we weren't there. We weren't there, yeah.

1:07:32

It could only be looked at nostalgia

1:07:34

looked at, nostalgicically. It needed to become

1:07:36

its own law. It needed to have

1:07:38

that kind of nostalgic fairy tale quality

1:07:40

that Peter Pan had for the people

1:07:43

who saw it when it first came

1:07:45

out. But for kids growing up in

1:07:47

the 90s, which there were fucking guns,

1:07:49

it's got that thing now. To the

1:07:51

extent that some of our biggest recording

1:07:54

artists are using it as source material

1:07:56

for their sad girl balance. Can we

1:07:58

touch briefly on... both Mazy Peters and

1:08:00

Taylor Swift songs that are very close

1:08:02

to one another and close to what

1:08:05

feels like this source material. Did we

1:08:07

not already? Well, we mentioned it briefly,

1:08:09

but I think what's interesting is that

1:08:11

both of those... songs. Mazy Peters is

1:08:13

called Wendy and Taylor Swift's song is

1:08:16

called Peter. Quite different angles on them.

1:08:18

But on the same sort of Maggie

1:08:20

Smith as Wendy character, which is the

1:08:22

idea of the girl who waits forever.

1:08:24

Yeah, and I think Taylor Swift's is

1:08:27

quite a, like it's very close to

1:08:29

Maggie, you know, it is from Maggie's

1:08:31

perspective, it is you said you're going

1:08:33

to grow up and you're going to

1:08:35

come find me and you didn't. Yeah,

1:08:38

which doesn't go as far as you

1:08:40

married my granddaughteraughter But we know it

1:08:42

was in her heart, but Maise Peters

1:08:44

is kind of a more empowering take.

1:08:47

My favorite line that Maise Peter's one

1:08:49

is, so I shut the window and

1:08:51

turn on the AC and you throw

1:08:53

your rocks and you scream that you

1:08:55

hate me. I think it's so great.

1:08:58

I think they'd be like, I'm putting

1:09:00

on the air conditioning Peter Bam. I

1:09:02

love it. But actually I want to

1:09:04

talk on that sort of Maggie Smith

1:09:06

Wendy performance, because I do think sort

1:09:09

of the Wendy of it all is

1:09:11

the kind of, emotional heart of the

1:09:13

movie that's kind of seen less. There's

1:09:15

something so devastating about the fact that

1:09:17

you know Wendy had all these adventures

1:09:20

with Peter and John and all the

1:09:22

other last boys. What happened to John

1:09:24

and Michael in this film? Are they

1:09:26

just dead? I guess they grew up

1:09:28

and died, yeah. Yes, they grew up

1:09:31

and died, as men do. Yeah, as

1:09:33

men want to do. I guess they

1:09:35

were probably killed in one of the

1:09:37

world wars they were forced to be

1:09:39

a part of. Probably died in a

1:09:42

war. Yeah. They probably died in a

1:09:44

war. And the, yeah, and it makes

1:09:46

sense that Wendy would be the last

1:09:48

one sounding. And then he decided he

1:09:50

would like, like, grow up for the

1:09:53

granddaughter sleeping in the bed next to

1:09:55

her. Yeah. And that moment of like,

1:09:57

I'm going to give her a kiss.

1:09:59

And then Maggie Smith's character in the

1:10:02

delivery is so heartbreaking. She says, no

1:10:04

Peter, no fimbled, no buttons. Oh. There

1:10:06

is, I think, again, a very like

1:10:08

90s vein running through this. in terms

1:10:10

of the treatment of the female characters

1:10:13

in this film, because they are sidelined

1:10:15

so powerfully. But the performances are so

1:10:17

good that they breathe life into it.

1:10:19

They are there, but I think maybe

1:10:21

that's, and again, we're going back to

1:10:24

what started this, which was me being

1:10:26

like, I really don't understand this constant

1:10:28

singing about Peter Pan and Wendy, but

1:10:30

I think you could not have watched

1:10:32

that film as a little girl child

1:10:35

in the 90s and not felt... personally

1:10:37

slighted by the way the women in

1:10:39

that film were treated and wanted to

1:10:41

redress it and to one day 30

1:10:43

years later write a song being like

1:10:46

and what about Wendy you know yeah

1:10:48

yeah yeah because the egg is in

1:10:50

the performance in such a deep way

1:10:52

when Maggie Smith as Wendy asked Peter

1:10:54

if he likes her dress and he

1:10:57

just ignores her oh my god like

1:10:59

oh fuck And there's a bit where

1:11:01

she says, like, even on my wedding

1:11:03

day, I like waited for you. And

1:11:06

he's just like, what? What do you

1:11:08

want? And he's like, mad old bat

1:11:10

type thing. And the idea it's said

1:11:12

in dialogue between him and his wife,

1:11:14

Moira, of like, you know, she writes

1:11:17

every year to see if you'll come

1:11:19

visit. And the idea that like, he's

1:11:21

like, like, ugh. Awful. And she's just,

1:11:23

and he's just, even that film, that

1:11:25

moment when, when you see him coming

1:11:28

and gaining a gain to her window,

1:11:30

and he puts a hand on her

1:11:32

shoulder, she turns around and she's like,

1:11:34

I'm old now, and he physically recoils

1:11:36

the male fear of women, angel. And

1:11:39

he's male fear of women, angel. And

1:11:41

he's like, but the male fear, wouldn't

1:11:43

he? And he's like, some slightly creepy

1:11:45

stuff there. But also, our little pal,

1:11:47

who is in fact called Maggie Maggie,

1:11:50

isn't she, confusing me. Confusing. So the

1:11:52

child is called Maggie, the wife is

1:11:54

called Moira. Yeah, but we've been calling

1:11:56

Wendy Maggie because it's Maggie Smith. Oh

1:11:58

yeah, sorry. But there is in fact

1:12:01

a character called Maggie and that's a

1:12:03

small child Maggie. And again, I feel

1:12:05

like for me, I... She's sort of

1:12:07

the wendy, the young Wendy of the

1:12:09

piece. Yes, and she plays Wendy in

1:12:12

the opening scene. And she plays Wendy

1:12:14

in the opening scene and she has

1:12:16

this magic and this belief in her

1:12:18

father all the way through and belief

1:12:21

in love and belief in everything. And

1:12:23

Peter Pan, as Robin Willis with Peter

1:12:25

Pan, just kind of ignores her the

1:12:27

whole way through. He's just like, whatever.

1:12:29

And he's so obsessed with Jack, the

1:12:32

son, the son, who's a whole bit

1:12:34

put it out there. And one of

1:12:36

the more annoying children in film. Yeah,

1:12:38

he's not. I was like, okay, all

1:12:40

right, Jack. But he's, this is, this

1:12:43

is very much a film about a

1:12:45

father's relationship with his son. Yes. And

1:12:47

it's disappointing his son and his son

1:12:49

being disappointed in him and the length

1:12:51

he'll go to to fix that relationship.

1:12:54

And I definitely feel like watching it,

1:12:56

I could see why as a child

1:12:58

you'd be like, well, what about Maggie?

1:13:00

Yeah. I feel like he almost nearly

1:13:02

left her on the pirate ship. Like,

1:13:05

it was a real after. But he's

1:13:07

like oh, I'm that one too. Yeah,

1:13:09

I forget the girl child sometimes but

1:13:11

like that and there is there is

1:13:13

a real side learning of the female

1:13:16

characters which is completely normal for that

1:13:18

time But I do I do think

1:13:20

that part of those songs is about

1:13:22

Yeah, it's about the way that that

1:13:24

film has made it's has created a

1:13:27

space around women loving emotionally unavailable child

1:13:29

like men But it's also partly about

1:13:31

men not taking them seriously and not

1:13:33

seeing them as as as as important

1:13:36

as their male friends, sons, fathers, whatever

1:13:38

it is. Yes, and it's difficult to

1:13:40

tell because you know Carrie Fisher did

1:13:42

an uncredited rewrite on this. Did she?

1:13:44

And I am like, Kerry Fisher was

1:13:47

very famous for many things. First of

1:13:49

which being Princess Leah. Yes, of course.

1:13:51

Even I knew that one. Being drunk.

1:13:53

The third of which being Eddie Fisher

1:13:55

and Debbie Reynolds's child. But the fourth

1:13:58

of which being an incredible script doctor.

1:14:00

So those many many films of the

1:14:02

80s and 90s have an uncredited Kerry

1:14:04

Fisher rewrite. Which I find so cool.

1:14:06

I bet she put all those emotional

1:14:09

heart bits with Maggie Smith. I think

1:14:11

so too. I mean, that was her.

1:14:13

Specifically in the IMDB. that moment at

1:14:15

the very end of the movie when

1:14:17

Tink says that space in between waking

1:14:20

and dreaming. Oh, it's got to be

1:14:22

Carrie Fisher. That was her line, yeah.

1:14:24

I feel like almost, like, I think,

1:14:26

yeah. The Tinger Bell's character, that's where

1:14:28

I love you. Julie Roberts character, Old

1:14:31

Wendy, Moira. The bit when Moira, like

1:14:33

even that moment when the children finally

1:14:35

come back and... I don't know why

1:14:37

I'm not because it's not funny, but

1:14:39

I was laughing because of something you

1:14:42

said about it, where they come back

1:14:44

to their beds and Moira wakes up

1:14:46

and she says to Wendy, Maggie Smith,

1:14:48

like, I've been dreaming so often that

1:14:51

they're back in their beds that I'm

1:14:53

seeing them now and they're there and

1:14:55

it's just this dreadful moment because as

1:14:57

you pointed out, you're like, well they've

1:14:59

just been going through extreme... trauma and

1:15:02

grief for three days. Well Bubbin Williams

1:15:04

has been like firing food calendar to

1:15:06

other people. But like I feel like

1:15:08

all of that feels like Carrie Fisher

1:15:10

who would probably have thought what would

1:15:13

it have been like to be the

1:15:15

grandmother and mother left behind when their

1:15:17

husband and the two children have just

1:15:19

disappeared? Yes because you can so tell

1:15:21

totally you can so tell that the

1:15:24

movie itself was conceived to be like

1:15:26

and like it's fine for the movie

1:15:28

to be about this specifically about patriarchs

1:15:30

like specifically about men and their sons.

1:15:32

and the relationship they have with their

1:15:35

sons and like something I'm very fascinated

1:15:37

by in the kind of the depiction

1:15:39

of like men in this movie is

1:15:41

that like like that so we begin

1:15:43

and Peter Banning is like no fun

1:15:46

supermanly provider obsessed with his job and

1:15:48

does that thing that many men do

1:15:50

which is uses his obsession with his

1:15:52

own success as a and he uses

1:15:55

it providing for his family as a

1:15:57

cover for his own egotistical obsession with

1:15:59

success. Do you know what I mean?

1:16:01

Yeah. So I have to do this

1:16:03

for a family. No, you could have

1:16:06

really taken your foot off the kettle

1:16:08

quite a few stops ago. And he's,

1:16:10

and because that is the world that

1:16:12

we've, that masculinity is poor now. Do

1:16:14

you mean like that's our version of

1:16:17

it? And. And then he goes to

1:16:19

Neverland and it takes him a while

1:16:21

to sort of remember what it is

1:16:23

to be Peter. And then once he

1:16:25

does, he gets completely absorbed in being

1:16:28

a little boy again. He wants to

1:16:30

go on adventures. And he forgets his

1:16:32

grown-up responsibility. Yeah, so you can't, and

1:16:34

this kind of very interesting thing of

1:16:36

like men being unable to hold both

1:16:39

in their heads at once, that thing

1:16:41

of being a provider. and a patriarch,

1:16:43

but also being silly and soft and

1:16:45

childish. Yeah. It's very, I think women

1:16:47

have access to those two parts of

1:16:50

themselves far easier than men do because

1:16:52

of the way that masculinity is so

1:16:54

policed by our society. Like we talk

1:16:56

a lot about how femininity is police

1:16:58

police, but so is masculinity and it's

1:17:01

really sad. It is. Most of its

1:17:03

femininity is infantilised more as well, which

1:17:05

makes it sort of, there's like allowed

1:17:07

to be a closer space between being

1:17:10

feminine and being like, like... childlike and

1:17:12

playful. Yes, exactly. But yeah, I do

1:17:14

think it's probably sucks to be a

1:17:16

man because if you're silly people be

1:17:18

like, oh Peter Pan. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:17:21

And if you're not silly, you're like,

1:17:23

aren't you boring old fuck? What are

1:17:25

you doing? Yeah. How can they catch

1:17:27

a break? I know. I always, sure,

1:17:29

but like many dads, like coming home

1:17:32

and like half six, seven o' o'clock

1:17:34

every day. and just like all of

1:17:36

our lives have happened. Yeah, and they

1:17:38

just weren't part of it. Yeah, and

1:17:40

like, you know, they, like, when I

1:17:43

think of myself at the end of

1:17:45

the day of work or whatever, and

1:17:47

I've come home and I've commuted or

1:17:49

whatever, and then there are just these

1:17:51

kids there. And what have they been

1:17:54

doing? Who are they? Who are they?

1:17:56

I remember my dad coming to the

1:17:58

door once and seeing me and my

1:18:00

brother, I slumped in for The Simpsons

1:18:02

as always. I get it! I get,

1:18:05

I remember my dad coming home on

1:18:07

a bike one time, he was in

1:18:09

the Air Force and I was with

1:18:11

my cousins. And we'd all just been

1:18:13

stung by a load of wasps, we

1:18:16

stood on a wasp's nest, and we

1:18:18

were all running, screaming, and crying, out

1:18:20

of a bush, like being chased by

1:18:22

wasps, and like, over to seeing it

1:18:25

turn around on his back. Back to

1:18:27

the office! He was like, absolutely not!

1:18:29

So I guess the upside is they

1:18:31

had that option. We had that option.

1:18:33

My mom had seven, extensively. wasp-stung children.

1:18:36

Oh my god, what a horrible day!

1:18:38

It was a really bad day for

1:18:40

everybody. It was, it goes down in

1:18:42

many people's memories as a low point.

1:18:44

Christ. But now for my dad is

1:18:47

he was like, just like I go

1:18:49

back to a bit more work. Yeah,

1:18:51

like, like it's like, I mean, I

1:18:53

don't pretend to understand it, like it's,

1:18:55

I'll never know what it is to

1:18:58

be a father, but like also that

1:19:00

kind of watching the dynamic, it's very

1:19:02

much, a lot of women go through

1:19:04

of like losing their best friend and

1:19:06

partner and being sort of like cheated

1:19:09

really and like you really feel and

1:19:11

I wonder this also feels like a

1:19:13

Carrie Fisher line this lovely little speech

1:19:15

that Moira gives to Peter which is

1:19:17

when he's sort of neglecting them in

1:19:20

London even though he promised that London

1:19:22

would be their special time saying that

1:19:24

you know This is like a really

1:19:26

short, precious time. It's a few years.

1:19:28

Oh yeah, I've wrote it down. Okay,

1:19:31

really. Yeah, a few years, well, probably

1:19:33

the first bit, a few years where

1:19:35

the kids want you around, after that

1:19:37

you're chasing them for attention. Then she

1:19:40

says, you're not being careful and you're

1:19:42

missing it. Yeah. Yeah. You're not being

1:19:44

careful. Carrie Fisher wrote that for sure.

1:19:46

I think Harry Fisher probably also wrote

1:19:48

the line that Maggie has, where she

1:19:51

looks at, I believe at Captain. Because

1:19:53

there's a little there's a little bit

1:19:55

of like props to mothers in this

1:19:57

film too. They're really it's really woven

1:19:59

through in ways that feel like a

1:20:02

redraft. By Carrie Fisher. By Carrie Fisher.

1:20:04

But can we talk about a hook

1:20:06

in general? Okay. and like the character

1:20:08

of Hook. The character of Hook, Dustin

1:20:10

Hoffman's hook in his best ever screen

1:20:13

performance and he has many to choose

1:20:15

from. Absolutely phenomenal. Incredible. Every single word

1:20:17

he says, his voice will not return

1:20:19

to the game of Dog in any

1:20:21

great detail, but suffice to say that.

1:20:24

As we all know, when men go

1:20:26

on holiday, it's God of the Flies.

1:20:28

When women go on holiday, it quickly

1:20:30

becomes a descent into madness, gameplay. And

1:20:32

for us, much of this week, it's

1:20:35

been sitting in a mid-century bar playing

1:20:37

a children's game and pretending to be

1:20:39

two old men, two rakish old gamblers.

1:20:41

It's called Philip. And it turns out

1:20:43

that the voice that we've both been

1:20:46

using. This was a screaming at each

1:20:48

other across the fucking region bubble. Philip,

1:20:50

you old dog, you old. Oh, that

1:20:52

was a badly good hand, Philip. Badly

1:20:55

done, Philip, badly done. A hot play

1:20:57

of dog there, like all this dog

1:20:59

lanes soon. Anyway, turns out we've just

1:21:01

been doing Hook's voice or wait without

1:21:03

even realizing. Yeah, we really had. And

1:21:06

we were watching it. And we were

1:21:08

like. Gosh, Philip, he's played a good

1:21:10

hand of dog lately, hasn't he? I

1:21:12

love him. He wants bad form. Bad

1:21:14

form. Match him across the table in

1:21:17

dog. In fact, what I enjoyed is

1:21:19

that there was a moment late in

1:21:21

the film where Hook, hooks Peter with

1:21:23

his hook, and you just went, bad

1:21:25

form! So, so immersed were you in

1:21:28

Dustin Hoffman's character. So he's so good.

1:21:30

Clearly that character has become part of

1:21:32

the cultural consciousness because it washed up

1:21:34

on our shores this way. And it's

1:21:36

too close to, it's too close to

1:21:39

be an accident. That's like he's incredible.

1:21:41

The way he just like inhabits that

1:21:43

character with his big little false teeth.

1:21:45

Yes, and the big eyebrows and the

1:21:47

head. It's so many moustaches. Virtually unrecognizable.

1:21:50

You really have to know it's us

1:21:52

not often. You wouldn't be your first

1:21:54

dance. Yeah. And like, I think it's

1:21:56

so. Fantastic how it's sort of, it's

1:21:59

quite a while until we meet Captain

1:22:01

Hook. Captain James Hook. Captain James Hook.

1:22:03

The movie Hook really goes out of

1:22:05

its way to let you know that

1:22:07

Hook is both his real last name

1:22:10

and also his affliction. Doctor, Captain James'

1:22:12

hook. Little nominative determiners and there was

1:22:14

ever meant to be. Yes, yes. And

1:22:16

the way that like... Pollishing his hook.

1:22:18

Pollishing his hook. His different hooks for

1:22:21

different things. And the... Get your own

1:22:23

hook boy, you know, he's got his

1:22:25

own... Get your own hook. And the

1:22:27

way that, when we get to London,

1:22:29

the hook on the window latch... creepy.

1:22:32

It's like focused on in this really

1:22:34

menacing way. And also I read that...

1:22:36

The announcer on the Pan Am flight

1:22:38

is also Dustin Hoffman Which I would

1:22:40

kind of want to rewatch again because

1:22:43

just like just sort of seed it

1:22:45

throughout in the voice in the voice.

1:22:47

Yeah It's it's simply fabulous and then

1:22:49

like when they come home from the

1:22:51

benefit at Great Ormanship Hospital Which I

1:22:54

just let on again that whole thing

1:22:56

of like Peter giving his speech about

1:22:58

orphans and everyone's standing up. Absolutely kills

1:23:00

me. It's incredible. But then they come

1:23:02

home from the benefit and there is

1:23:05

like this hook scratch on the front

1:23:07

door and it's so scary. It goes

1:23:09

all the way up the stairs into

1:23:11

the children's room. Yes, and toodles is

1:23:14

there. I couldn't remember who he was

1:23:16

from the original. No, me neither. I

1:23:18

just know that he is in the

1:23:20

original. He's lost his marbles. He's a

1:23:22

lost boy, I think. But just the

1:23:25

idea of an age dementia. Yeah, we

1:23:27

imagined as like a child who hasn't

1:23:29

grown up. Yeah, it's really powerful. And

1:23:31

just so melancholy. And then like they

1:23:33

go up and then there's the kind

1:23:36

of the message left by hook and

1:23:38

the kids are gone, obviously. And then

1:23:40

they call the police, the sergeant of

1:23:42

which is played by Phil Collins. famous

1:23:44

being the father Emily in Paris. Oh

1:23:47

yeah! Wow! It's a stars I did

1:23:49

cast. That family going to Europe for

1:23:51

their things no one. Their whole life.

1:23:53

Yeah and his only line of dialogue

1:23:55

being, well given the literary history of

1:23:58

the family, it could be a prank,

1:24:00

which I just liked. Yeah. I think

1:24:02

again, that moment of... a prank where

1:24:04

you steal someone's kids? Yeah, like a

1:24:06

prank and like the kids are still

1:24:09

gone, Phil Collins. Right, like I often

1:24:11

think I'll just prank my friends by

1:24:13

stealing their children for a few nights.

1:24:15

I don't think that if anyone's listening,

1:24:17

I'm obviously not doing anyone's because like,

1:24:20

what? What? What? And then we get

1:24:22

the moment where, uh... I think his

1:24:24

relationship with me is very, very special.

1:24:26

Yes, yes. Stop me, yes. What are

1:24:29

you trying to shoot himself in the

1:24:31

head? And so he was like, oh,

1:24:33

well, there was like, oh, there was

1:24:35

like, oh, don't stop me, don't, don't

1:24:37

stop me, no, stop me. Great. I

1:24:40

think you've read some great trivia about

1:24:42

that. Yes. Dustin and Bob, really like

1:24:44

something quite other. Yeah, so Bob Haskins

1:24:46

placed me, and Dustin, and Dustin, like,

1:24:48

you know, to reiterate, these were people

1:24:51

who would have grown up the generation

1:24:53

where Peter Pan was at its most

1:24:55

spoken. and that they wanted to do

1:24:57

it really well and like they they

1:24:59

realized after they had been rehearsing for

1:25:02

a while they were playing them as

1:25:04

two gay guys that like that canonically

1:25:06

to both Bob Hoskins and Dustin Hoffman

1:25:08

Smee and Hook are gay like they

1:25:10

are old and I immediately said yeah

1:25:13

of course they are of course they

1:25:15

are of course they are and they

1:25:17

have a very beautiful relationship with one

1:25:19

another and a very beautiful home That

1:25:21

ship is quite something. The inside of

1:25:24

that ship is the only good bit

1:25:26

of the set is Captain Hook's ship.

1:25:28

Yeah, the rest of the set is

1:25:30

very ugly. But Captain Hook's quarters are

1:25:32

sublime. Sublime, sublime, sublime. I can see

1:25:35

why Jack is tempted. This is a

1:25:37

good point you actually made. I think

1:25:39

the dynamic between a hook and Peter,

1:25:41

which is mainly two adversaries across. generations.

1:25:44

Cross generations played almost like Captain Hook's

1:25:46

just a bit bored and he's like

1:25:48

without Peter to play with what's supposed

1:25:50

to do with his life. Yeah yeah

1:25:52

yeah. But there's also kind of a

1:25:55

layering in of when when Hook takes

1:25:57

his son, not his daughter. No, he's

1:25:59

not interested in it, of course. She's

1:26:01

just... Well, no, actually, that's, he sort

1:26:03

of tries to school them to hate

1:26:06

their parents. But she does not take

1:26:08

it. She won't take to it. And

1:26:10

I think that there's one point I

1:26:12

thought was, it was like, oh, this

1:26:14

deserves modern day meemification, where he goes

1:26:17

up to her. He just says, before

1:26:19

you were born, your parents used to

1:26:21

stay up all night, go dancing. They

1:26:23

had a better time. And it reminds

1:26:25

me of like, like, like, You're left

1:26:28

alone with your friend's kid? And you're

1:26:30

disturbing like... Well, they were happy? They

1:26:32

used to have fun! Yeah, and then

1:26:34

she's like, no! And he fails her.

1:26:36

And she's like, Mommy loves me. Yeah,

1:26:39

she's so sweet. She is extremely sweet.

1:26:41

But he sort of succeeds better with

1:26:43

Jack. who's less good. Because Jack has

1:26:45

already. He's a less good kid. But

1:26:48

he's already cynical about his time. He's

1:26:50

already cynical. And actually, as you pointed

1:26:52

out, it's kind of for pizza, this

1:26:54

is a really... devastating moment and it

1:26:56

sort of plays into that fear the

1:26:59

1990s fear of divorce and yes another

1:27:01

man raising your children yes just this

1:27:03

kind of the worst thing that can

1:27:05

happen is that you neglect your family

1:27:07

so much that your wife leaves you

1:27:10

takes the kids and then marry someone

1:27:12

else he's got a fabulous wig is

1:27:14

obviously gay with his friend Smee and

1:27:16

has only one hand but it's more

1:27:18

but loves your kids better than you

1:27:21

do yeah so it's ever mean to

1:27:23

to Jack he's just like... And it's

1:27:25

a better dad. Yeah, yeah. Just fair

1:27:27

enough. He's just like extremely indulgent the

1:27:29

way somebody who doesn't truly care about

1:27:32

someone is. Yeah, that is actually true.

1:27:34

And it actually reminded me very closely

1:27:36

of Mrs. Doubtfire. Yeah. That whole thing

1:27:38

where, um. His Boston. Yeah, where. Quite

1:27:40

different. He has to watch Pierce Boston

1:27:43

be very sweet with his kids while

1:27:45

he's like in the dog house, but

1:27:47

like he. is Mrs. Stonefire observing it.

1:27:49

And it's, yeah, it really, I think,

1:27:51

from what I recall, because I remember

1:27:54

doing some trivia reading about Mrs. Deadfire

1:27:56

recently, that rather Williams did have quite

1:27:58

a bad divorce and like was quite

1:28:00

hung up about this specific issue and

1:28:03

so it would make sense that would

1:28:05

play into this project as well. Yes

1:28:07

definitely. And yeah as you say a

1:28:09

very, as we said, like a very

1:28:11

90s concern of this this huge flurry

1:28:14

of divorce that was happening in the

1:28:16

late 80s to mid 90s. And they

1:28:18

hadn't invented blended families yet. Yeah and

1:28:20

no one really quite knew what to

1:28:22

how to do it. But like what

1:28:25

did you, how do you feel about

1:28:27

the last boys in general? So

1:28:30

I would say if I were editing

1:28:33

this film, I would cut is most

1:28:35

of what I would cut would be

1:28:37

the Lost Boys. And part of that

1:28:39

is because I think child actors can

1:28:42

only sustain a scene for so long,

1:28:44

particularly in an ensemble. And these are

1:28:46

good child actors. These are very good,

1:28:48

but it gets old. The fight scene

1:28:51

went on for, I would say, 20

1:28:53

minutes too long. Yeah. And was also,

1:28:55

again, I felt like I've really struggled

1:28:57

to... stay in the contract of magic

1:29:00

when it was clear that the stunts

1:29:02

were being performed by adult men. Yeah,

1:29:04

because they had kids and throwing adult

1:29:06

mad at a shit. Vastly different proportions

1:29:09

to the children they were supposed to

1:29:11

be represented. Yes. And I was like,

1:29:13

well that's not the same person, that's

1:29:15

10 men jumping onto a shit. And

1:29:18

now it's children, and now it's men,

1:29:20

and that there's like mashed potato. I

1:29:22

couldn't be asked with that. Yeah, yeah,

1:29:25

yeah, yeah. I think, do you know

1:29:27

what, do you know what, do you

1:29:29

know what I do you know what

1:29:31

I do you know what I do

1:29:34

you know what I do you know

1:29:36

what I do you know what I

1:29:38

do you know what I do you

1:29:40

know what I do you know what

1:29:43

I do you know what I do

1:29:45

you know what I do you know

1:29:47

what I do you know what I

1:29:49

do you know what I do you

1:29:52

know what I do you think, because

1:29:54

I do you think, because I do

1:29:56

you think, because I do you think,

1:29:58

because I do you think Almost every

1:30:01

week part of this film is in

1:30:03

The Lost Boys. Yeah. All the weird

1:30:05

bits. Skateboarding. The whole Rufio storyline. I

1:30:07

like Rufio. Okay, no, but the end

1:30:10

of his story line. Yes, yeah, yeah,

1:30:12

yeah. There are some incredibly heartfelt moments.

1:30:14

As you say, the one which is,

1:30:17

oh, Peter, there you are. That's beautiful.

1:30:19

But things like the fact that Rufio

1:30:21

gets killed. Just dead. No one doesn't

1:30:23

think about it. Yes, no one's he's

1:30:26

bothered. Let's yeah, let's pause this for

1:30:28

a second like yeah like he he's

1:30:30

just dead and Peter is like oh

1:30:32

well that sucks you killed with you

1:30:35

yeah that's it and also unless I'm

1:30:37

really bad at counting early scenes in

1:30:39

the film loads of lost boys I'd

1:30:41

be like 40 at least final scene

1:30:44

about eight of them still standing presumably

1:30:46

the rest have been horrific slain by

1:30:48

adult pirates no one's worried this is

1:30:50

where the fantasy really breaks yeah you're

1:30:53

right this is because like um It

1:30:55

is like colorful sort of odd play-doh

1:30:57

food and imagination and great adventures and

1:30:59

like gosh war with the pirates and

1:31:02

so and then you're like okay so

1:31:04

the so the pirates can really murder

1:31:06

the children and Rufio has been stabbed

1:31:08

to death by Captain Ho and the

1:31:11

final thing he says is that he

1:31:13

wished he had a dad like Peter

1:31:15

yeah who then is like oh well

1:31:18

yeah and then it doesn't do anything

1:31:20

with that and then it's like and

1:31:22

then it kind of has an odd

1:31:24

like moment of okay so I'm going

1:31:27

to go now, Captain Hook, so don't

1:31:29

be a con. And he goes, I

1:31:31

won't be. And then Captain Hook goes,

1:31:33

ha ha! And then... Then Peter beats

1:31:36

him again and he goes, okay, now

1:31:38

I'm really going to go now, don't

1:31:40

be a conned. And he's like, I

1:31:42

will. Aha! And then it's the thing

1:31:45

I'm like, okay, we're not, it's like

1:31:47

a very conscious, like we're not going

1:31:49

to show Peter Pan killing Hook. And

1:31:51

then a big crocodile falls on him

1:31:54

instead and that's the end of Captain

1:31:56

Hook. It's like, that is the worst

1:31:58

ending for that character ever. to play

1:32:00

the defense of the crocodile. The whole

1:32:03

point of Captain Hoek's session with the

1:32:05

crocodile is that he's been told crocodile

1:32:07

will kill him. Yes, I get that.

1:32:10

So a cocktail has to kill him.

1:32:12

Secondly... But like a big paper mache,

1:32:14

crocodile? Yeah, he says it was more

1:32:16

of a taxi-dermied crocodile that falls on

1:32:19

his head and then eats him. But

1:32:21

personally, my take on that was that

1:32:23

they need to leave room for a

1:32:25

sequel if this film had not been

1:32:28

on box office flop. a crocodile is

1:32:30

sort of easier to resurrect than one

1:32:32

who's been had his head chopped off

1:32:34

or been thrown in the sea or

1:32:37

something. I guess it was still badly

1:32:39

done. Even if he was thrown into

1:32:41

the sea and we saw the crocodile,

1:32:43

like, like, um, stars death in the

1:32:46

Lion King, like, thrown to the hyenas,

1:32:48

like, even that would be better than,

1:32:50

like, I suggested it, then like, it

1:32:52

was just sort of a weird taxidermy

1:32:55

crocodile folds on him in a weird

1:32:57

angle. It was really bad ending for,

1:32:59

Yes, really, he deserved better than that.

1:33:02

Yeah. Bad form. Bad form. Not of

1:33:04

the indefatigable good form, which should be

1:33:06

accustomed. I couldn't really be fucked with

1:33:08

the skateboarding lost boys. I just think,

1:33:11

do you know what? Maybe that was

1:33:13

the main complaint. If I were reading

1:33:15

through the lines of Roger Ebert's review.

1:33:17

I think you just fucking hated the

1:33:20