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the next level, visit 1800flowers.com/Acast. Hello

0:33

everyone, as you can see, I just

0:35

can't help myself from participating in the

0:38

valiant art of podcasting at the moment,

0:40

even though I said I was quitting

0:42

for a little while. Because first of

0:44

all, I love doing it, and second

0:47

of all, I have things to promote,

0:49

shill, and sell. The first of which

0:51

is my collaboration with War Child which

0:53

is Sentimental Garbage's first ever merchandise drop.

0:55

The first time we've ever done t-shirts

0:58

or totes or sweatshirts and we're doing

1:00

it with 100% of the profits to

1:02

the charity War Child. You can get

1:04

that on everpress.com. We've already sold something

1:07

like 500 units which is incredible to

1:09

me and I really want to keep

1:11

that going all throughout the Christmas period.

1:13

If you order before I think December

1:15

11th, you can get it before Christmas,

1:18

but we're likely to keep the campaign

1:20

going in the new year if it

1:22

does well enough. So please help me

1:24

make it too well enough and get

1:27

some more money to this amazing, amazing

1:29

charity. The second thing is that I

1:31

am doing a gig at the Union

1:33

Chapel on February 6th. So please get

1:36

your tickets to that. We've got a

1:38

couple left. I think we're about 75%

1:40

sold out at the moment and those

1:42

tickets will go. So yeah, get involved.

1:44

And please enjoy this kind of next

1:47

suite of episodes that we have running

1:49

over the Christmas period that are mostly

1:51

to do with movie musicals. First because

1:53

I find movie musicals to be an

1:56

incredibly Christmas thing without necessarily being Christmas

1:58

movies. second, because I'm

2:00

kind of continuously inspired

2:02

- the idea that musicals are

2:04

about things coming together and right

2:06

now the world sort of feels

2:09

like it's like apart and we need sort of room.

2:11

and we need how on

2:13

how who are different can come

2:15

together to make amazing things. amazing things. of

2:17

what I want to keep in mind as

2:19

I go. in with this Christmas

2:21

season and into 2025 to

2:24

not lose hope and to believe

2:26

in the beliefs of musicals

2:28

as I go. as I go. Okay, that's all

2:30

that's all from me. Enjoy today's episode.

2:35

Hello and welcome sentimental

2:37

garbage. The podcast, where welcome

2:39

about the Garbage, the podcast that we talk

2:41

about the culture we love makes us feel

2:44

ashamed of. feel ashamed of. My name is

2:46

Carolyn, I don't know who, and what is it, Maria,

2:48

that you can't face? Joining me is the nun

2:50

nun wearing curlers her wimple. It's Catherine

2:52

Rundle. Hello, thank you so much

2:54

for what a complete delight to

2:56

be talking about the sound of

2:58

music. I've come into the come into the studio

3:00

today slight a slight cold, so I just need

3:03

to go straight to the point with this

3:05

one. How has it has it evaded everyone's

3:07

notice this movie is dripping in sex?

3:09

in sex? It's one of the hottest of the hottest

3:11

things I've ever seen. It's one

3:13

of the sexiest movies I've that reason

3:15

that we haven't noticed all all saw

3:17

it for the first time when we

3:19

were six years old. old. Yeah. Yeah, we

3:21

remember curtains. We remember schnitzel with

3:23

noodles, bright copper kettles, and

3:25

kettles, and not, Captain Von meeting Maria

3:27

for the first time and

3:29

saying, time around. turn I want

3:31

to have a look at

3:33

you. look at you, then then her

3:35

dress, buying material then almost firing her

3:37

immediately. her And we don't notice when

3:39

we are when old six years old that has

3:42

a staggering figure. Yeah. She's just really

3:44

genuinely hot, hot. but we didn't notice

3:46

you know, she's a nun. nun. It's and

3:48

she's got short hair. She's got Nobody

3:50

could have told six -year -old me

3:52

that a woman with short hair could

3:54

be you. me that a woman with took the

3:56

L word to do that for

3:58

me. the L word to do that for me. Like

4:01

it's so straight, this is like,

4:04

I mean people talk about things

4:06

changing upon many watches all the

4:08

time, but I think almost nothing

4:10

like proves that more than the

4:12

sound of music. This movie that

4:14

we come to know so well

4:16

as children because there are so

4:18

many children in it. And there

4:20

aren't a lot of musicals like

4:22

that, I guess the King and

4:24

I maybe, but that sucks. That

4:26

really profoundly sucks. And if you

4:28

try to think, especially when we

4:30

were young, musicals that had more

4:32

than say two children, and where

4:34

the children, you can really get

4:36

your teeth into them, there are

4:38

almost none. It was just this,

4:40

and I watched it over and

4:42

over and over. Oh God, so

4:44

tell me your first, tell me

4:46

your first experiences of it and

4:48

when, when did it become more

4:50

than a, when and how to

4:52

go more than a kind of

4:54

a casual movie from childhood to

4:56

like profound thing of your heart.

4:59

I was in a school play

5:01

of the sound of music when

5:03

I was maybe like seven years

5:05

old. and I spent the ages

5:07

between about four and eight with

5:09

cropped hair very like Friedrich in

5:11

the sound of music and therefore

5:13

I played Friedrich in the sound

5:15

of music. Wait were you in

5:17

an all-girl school or did you

5:19

just really know? I also doubled

5:21

up as the Reverend Mother. Oh

5:23

my God. It was, I think,

5:25

we have a video of it.

5:27

Not a really profoundly excellent dramatic

5:29

performance in that I think I

5:31

literally said, hello, I'm the Reverend

5:33

Mother, which wasn't in the script.

5:35

But at that point we would

5:37

watch it and watch it and

5:39

watch it and watch it, you

5:41

know, soak in osmotically the sense

5:43

of what artistic endeavors we were

5:45

engaging in. And I was just

5:47

wildly in love. I was so

5:49

in love with Froline Maria and

5:51

with Christopher Plummer and with all

5:54

of the children and with Lisa

5:56

and with the creepy Nazi blonde

5:58

boy. I for me it felt

6:00

from other things I had seen. It

6:02

felt kinder and bolder and brighter. And

6:04

then as I got older, I don't

6:06

think I really watched it that much

6:08

in my teens, but I watched it

6:10

again in adulthood and thought, oh, but

6:12

this is spectacular. in what it tries

6:15

to do, it does it with such

6:17

pinpoint precision and it's spectacularly hot, it's

6:19

so hot. It's so sexy. I can't

6:21

believe, I just put, you know, obviously

6:23

I've seen this a million times as

6:25

well, it's a big thing in my

6:27

house too, and then I threw it

6:29

on yesterday as I was doing my

6:31

tax return because I was kind of

6:33

like, I don't need a thousand percent

6:35

look at the sound of music to

6:37

do a podcast, I've seen it a

6:39

million times, I have all these scenes

6:41

in my scenes in my head in

6:43

my head already. But something about this

6:45

watch around, maybe it's, I don't know,

6:47

something going on with me at the

6:49

moment, but I just had to look

6:51

up, I was, every time Maria and

6:53

the captain were in a scene, or

6:55

the Baroness was in a scene, I

6:57

was just like completely stricken with the

6:59

charisma and the sexual tension that feels

7:01

so real, and also for a movie

7:03

made in the 60s, feels kind of

7:05

dangerous, it's like... She is staff. She

7:07

is a nun and she is staff.

7:09

I mean, I know she's a novice,

7:11

but like it's this instant sort of...

7:14

power play stuff they have going on

7:16

together that just feels so hot to

7:19

me. And he's obviously just the most

7:21

beautiful man who's ever lived. The most

7:23

beautiful man who's ever lived. I think

7:25

when I was young I didn't understand

7:28

how deeply it was getting under my

7:30

skin and now my definition of beauty

7:32

is men with enormous noses which is

7:35

Christopher Plummer and that kind of rigor

7:37

that he had and of course a

7:39

lot of his a lot of his

7:42

sharpness in the role is because he

7:44

fucking hated this film. And that's what

7:46

makes it work so well. The sound

7:48

of mucus used to all is fabulous.

7:51

And said that working with Julianories was

7:53

like being hit over the head with

7:55

a Valentine's card every day. But they,

7:58

you know, they did love each other.

8:00

I think that just that reservation from

8:02

truly like leaping into a sacrin bull

8:05

of treacle is what keeps the film

8:07

bright. It's what allows it to just

8:09

still cut through its own sentimentality. It's

8:11

so interesting because generally a musical can

8:14

fall apart if you can if you

8:16

it does fall apart when you sense

8:18

that like actor isn't giving his all

8:21

into this kind of thing. There's musical

8:23

I love called the best little horrors

8:25

in Texas and everybody's amazing in it

8:28

apart from Bert Reynolds the Star. And

8:31

you can tell he's embarrassed to

8:33

be in a musical and that

8:35

I believe is why nobody remembers

8:37

that musical is because he is

8:39

embarrassed and it makes you not

8:41

trust that you're watching something good

8:43

even though you are. But for

8:45

some reason, Christopher Plummer uniquely, even

8:47

though he hates this musical, doesn't

8:49

want to be there, it works

8:51

totally and perfectly well with... It's

8:53

the ideal thing because Captain von

8:55

Trapp doesn't really want to be

8:57

there most of the time. That's

8:59

how he is imagined as somebody

9:01

who doesn't really know where he

9:03

does want to be, someone who

9:05

doesn't really understand joy, someone who

9:07

is a little bit at sea.

9:09

And that's perfect for a man

9:11

who is throughout like really, really?

9:13

Really? I just think, thank God,

9:15

he didn't love it. Because it

9:17

means that that slight element of

9:19

disdain that he has in the

9:21

early scenes is so perfect. And

9:23

of course, the other thing is,

9:25

they did become lifelong friends. And

9:27

by the end, you know, they

9:29

are. They are beloved to each

9:32

other and it does shine. What's

9:34

so beautiful about those two characters

9:36

is they're such freaks? They're both

9:38

freaks and they're trying so hard

9:40

to be normal. Because it's like,

9:42

Maria is this, I did, you

9:44

know, as one must, you have

9:46

to do the kind of scouring

9:48

through the real Maria von Tramp

9:50

sort of biography, which is always

9:52

satisfying to revisit. The other one

9:54

is Wikipedia pages that you visit

9:56

and you realize all the links

9:58

are purple because you've all before.

10:00

I had the book. Did you?

10:02

Written by her, right? Yeah. It

10:04

was one of those gifts where

10:06

when you're, I know, really quite

10:08

young, tennis, people think, what's, you

10:10

know, what is she like? Well,

10:12

she likes books, she likes musicals.

10:14

Yeah. This might join them too.

10:16

It is not a book for

10:18

children. How does it read? Dry.

10:20

because she's like a super catholic

10:22

right because like she was gonna

10:24

be a nun and then didn't

10:26

and got married instead but that

10:28

doesn't mean you stop being a

10:30

nun in your heart right and

10:33

and you know her vision of

10:35

what it was she has a

10:37

vision of duty that I think

10:39

would feel somewhat alien to a

10:41

lot of certainly children reading that

10:43

book today but It is dry,

10:45

but it is also full of

10:47

the thing that just like punches

10:49

through the pages is she loved

10:51

those children. She was obsessed with

10:53

them and famously, as you know,

10:55

because you have clicked those links,

10:57

she didn't want to marry him.

10:59

Yes, you know, when he proposed

11:01

she didn't love him, she liked

11:03

him, but she wasn't in love

11:05

with him and he said, will

11:07

you marry me and the children?

11:09

And she said there is no

11:11

other way he could have proposed

11:13

than that that would have made

11:15

me say yes. Oh. Because those

11:17

kids, they were, and they were

11:19

gifted. They were, usually gifted musical

11:21

family. Yeah. But like technical singers,

11:23

they were like choral tech, they

11:25

were not show tunes. Right, right.

11:27

They were not, and they weren't,

11:29

you know, they weren't, if you

11:31

read the book, particularly carefree even.

11:33

Yeah. She just she adored

11:36

them and they were like a you

11:38

know, they were singers up until like

11:40

the late 50s Right until the oldest

11:43

one was in his 40s and he

11:45

was like this is quite enough But

11:47

you do get this this um the

11:49

kind of the so much was changed

11:52

between the real von traps and the

11:54

von traps that we know on screen

11:56

But one of the things that does

11:59

remain is this idea that she was

12:01

so she was this kind of orphaned

12:03

kid who was kind of shuffled around

12:06

from pillar to post and this kind

12:08

of mental uncle who was always punishing

12:10

her for things she didn't do that

12:13

turned her into this kind of teen

12:15

rebel that the and that he was

12:17

also an atheist and the way in

12:19

which she was a teen rebel was

12:22

that she was sort of like answering

12:24

back full of kind of joy full

12:26

of mischief but also became a mega

12:29

Catholic yeah as a rebellion yeah and

12:31

she had as you say like she

12:33

was born on a train because her

12:36

mother was wanting to visit her family

12:38

in Vienna partly for class reasons. And

12:40

so she was born on the train,

12:42

the train conductor delivered her. And then

12:45

she had this incredibly painful and difficult

12:47

childhood. As you say, her mother died

12:49

when she was three, she was put

12:52

out to foster, her uncle beat her

12:54

over and over, and as a result,

12:56

she became, she was a compulsive liar.

12:59

She was a wild terror away. She

13:01

was incredibly funny. She became an obsessive

13:03

Catholic. That was her way of fighting

13:05

back. It's so that representation we Catholics

13:08

need. Just spectacular of her that she

13:10

talks in the book about this moment

13:12

where she was walking when she was

13:15

young and she was struck by the

13:17

beauty of the world itself of the

13:19

living world and she in the book

13:22

she said she threw out her arms

13:24

and said I must I must love

13:26

this and I and that's all there

13:28

and that's the thing and I think

13:31

that's what makes so powerful and what

13:33

makes Maria, Julie Andrews is Maria so

13:35

powerful, is that like, because the real

13:38

Maria von Trapp, it's not like she's

13:40

Anastasia Romanoff. She is very much the

13:42

author of her own story. Her books

13:45

were adapted into several films, which then

13:47

became the stage show, which then became

13:49

the movie, and she was, you know,

13:51

consultant did everything. And so even though

13:54

so much of the facts and numbers

13:56

and dates and dates change with the

13:58

Santa music story, the marioness of Maria

14:01

is just this bolt of truth of

14:03

truth that goes through it, which goes

14:05

through it. There's a freak lady! It's

14:08

a freak lady who like... fit into

14:10

the abbey and it's just kind of

14:12

all over the place but has so

14:14

much kind of love and joy and

14:17

purpose in her that hasn't just been

14:19

directed yet and then you see all

14:21

that being directed into this kind of

14:24

immense love immense bravery and it's it's

14:26

just so beautiful and satisfying that all

14:28

of that is referenced throughout the film

14:31

the kind of from the first moment

14:33

for throwing out her arms to the

14:35

mountain to the kind of one of

14:37

the final songs which is you know

14:40

somewhere in my youth or wicked childhood

14:42

I must have done something good and

14:44

when you know the story of Maria

14:47

it's like you did have a wretched

14:49

childhood it was terrible but look at

14:51

you now you got this big house

14:54

that you have to leave it is

14:56

I find it so incredibly moving for

14:58

exactly that reason I When we were

15:00

growing up, so I was born in

15:03

1987, and a lot of the films

15:05

I adored had in them a transformation

15:07

scene, a makeover montage, the idea of

15:10

a girl being made more lovely, more

15:12

socially acceptable, more ready for the boys.

15:14

Yes, princess diaries, and ten things I

15:17

hate about you, and you know, every

15:19

scene where a girl who doesn't know

15:21

how to dress is taught to dress,

15:23

is taught to dress. Yeah. And the

15:26

sound of music felt like a talisman

15:28

against that, because though those have real

15:30

delight and deliciousness in them, the sound

15:33

of music requires her no change. And

15:35

it doesn't, at no point in the

15:37

film does he say, you're beautiful. Because

15:40

realistically, although she has the figure of

15:42

a goddess, she's also got a fabulously

15:44

funny face. You know, the nose turns

15:46

up, and it's not a classic beauty.

15:49

It doesn't matter. She'll have mad hair.

15:51

Unbelievable hair. I mean, she has a

15:53

shit lid. She has a shid lid.

15:56

It really is a Miranda Harb sort

15:58

of took a season three. And

16:01

it just doesn't matter and they don't

16:03

really fix it. It's just... Yeah. And

16:05

the... She gets a nicer clothes, but

16:07

not that much nicer. There's no fabulous

16:10

frock. There's no iconic image in which

16:12

she stands at the top of the

16:14

stairs and everyone's breath is caught by

16:17

her beauty. Yeah. Because her beauty is

16:19

not the point. Because what is the

16:21

point is her like... charisma so hot

16:24

it could burn a hole through the

16:26

core of the world and her and

16:28

her passion and her care and the

16:31

character this sense that she is just

16:33

able to power through any situation yeah

16:35

on force of character and force of

16:38

love and I just as a kid

16:40

I felt it felt like being given

16:42

like a draft of cool water. But

16:45

the thing is, like thinking about it

16:47

now, that sort of thing of the

16:49

movie that avoids a makeover scene, it

16:52

actually doesn't avoid makeover scene. Everybody else

16:54

gets made over. Christopher Plummer gets made

16:56

over. The kids get any word for

16:59

it. Like the iconic outfit of the

17:01

sound of music is this fucking curtain.

17:03

Like that's what we did, whenever we

17:06

see sort of like, I remember me

17:08

and my brother came to, went to

17:10

a thing recently and we were both

17:13

wearing the exact same colored pallet by

17:15

accident. We were both wearing kind of

17:17

beige with sort of red accessories and

17:20

like the the von Trapp thing that

17:22

we got all night was just, he

17:24

had to go home, it was awful.

17:27

And you say, like, no, of course,

17:29

there is a makeover. And it's a

17:31

fabulous makeover. They get less well-dressed. Yes,

17:33

expect, you know, they wear a later

17:36

hose and in a chintz. And it's

17:38

just, it's just majestic. When I was

17:40

a kid, I loved those clothes. Oh,

17:43

yeah. And really, really wanted them. Of

17:45

course you wanted them. They're playclothes. Running

17:47

around Salzburg and a parable druk. And

17:50

having a marvelous time. They're the way

17:52

those two spark off each other. I

17:54

love it. I love it. Like the

17:57

when he calls her captain. mistake. Right.

17:59

And of course, as you know, as

18:01

I know, it was a actual slip

18:04

that was kept in. Oh, we're still

18:06

with such nerds. I love it! I

18:08

love it! I

18:11

know we're like flipping all over the place, I'm

18:13

trying to get us back on track. Maybe we

18:15

should just go through... Let's do that. I find

18:17

it easier with musicals to just go through the

18:19

soundtrack and then we can talk about all our

18:22

feelings. Okay, starting with, I mean, we always had

18:24

the sound of music at the beginning, I think

18:26

we talked about her throwing up in her arms,

18:28

but just to say, that is a fucking mad

18:30

way to begin a movie. It's

18:34

insane. And also one made me think,

18:37

you know, both you and I are

18:39

tangential to the movie business, we've both

18:41

written screenplays, and one day, one of

18:44

those screenplays will be made. But the,

18:46

the, what really occurred to me in

18:48

the opening shots is like, wow, they're

18:50

really trying to prove from the off

18:53

how expensive this movie is. Because of

18:55

all those helicopter shots of the mountains,

18:57

right? Like, that is, this is the

19:00

60s, like, helicopters are not everywhere. It's

19:02

a statement of intent. It is! And

19:04

it says we are going to put

19:07

money behind making this film beautiful. Yeah.

19:09

And it's going to be a little

19:11

bit unlike the kind of beauties you've

19:13

seen before. It's going to be really

19:16

expensive. Yeah. And, but there is no,

19:18

usually the way in a film that

19:20

you would establish character is by seeing

19:23

a character immediately in directing with other

19:25

characters. Yeah, yeah. They're rushing through a

19:27

city and they're bumpy. Yeah. Whereas we

19:29

just have this girl alone spinning in

19:32

a field. When I first saw it,

19:34

I was someone's house, I think I

19:36

was six years old, and this little

19:39

girl was like, we have to watch

19:41

this. And that opening scene came on

19:43

the screen and I was like, absolutely

19:46

not. Yeah. What? Yeah. No, no, I

19:48

want I want I want the hand

19:50

on the alarm clock. I want like

19:52

a little crowd of children. I want

19:55

some kind of interaction and now I

19:57

think it's one of the best openings

19:59

of a movie. It's is hell. Guzzy

20:02

as hell I'm- Well, it's as corny

20:04

as fuck. Right, it is in no

20:06

way. It's no way we're trying to

20:09

be cool. No. It is, like, it's

20:11

saying this is expensive. It's also saying,

20:13

produce yourself, guys. Yeah, this is expensive

20:15

and incredibly uncool. Like a Kate spade

20:18

bank. No,

20:21

they're not going to sponsor you. I

20:24

guess they're not. I guess they're not.

20:26

And then we go straight to like,

20:28

and then that's when we have our

20:30

hand in the alarm clock moment of

20:32

like, oh God, oh I'm late, blah.

20:34

And then she goes down to the

20:37

convent where she lives and all of

20:39

the nuns just having a little bit

20:41

you better. Which I think everybody you

20:43

sort of secretly wishes to be the

20:45

subject of that little bitch. That little

20:47

bitch. It's a perfect pitch. It's wonderful.

20:50

They don't say anything really bad about

20:52

her. Her faults are very obviously coded

20:54

as actual virtues. She climbs a tree

20:56

and screams so near her dress and

20:58

scot a tear. That's fine. No one's

21:00

worried by that. I'd like to speak

21:03

on Maria's behalf. Maria makes me laugh.

21:05

It's so like because it's like you

21:07

know you live in the world and

21:09

the price of living in the world

21:11

is that when you leave a room

21:13

people will talk about you and that's

21:16

just like how we have and we

21:18

have to live knowing that. But our

21:20

dearest friends have said to them the

21:22

worst shit about us. And like, I

21:24

think it's so much healthier for everyone

21:26

to pretend that every time anyone's talking

21:29

shit about you, it's just the nuns.

21:31

It's just the nuns, it's just the

21:33

nuns. I think it's a fabulous message

21:35

to be telling young children, like people

21:37

will talk about you, but don't worry

21:39

too much. It's largely going to be

21:42

in rhyme and it's going to be

21:44

nuns and they all love you really.

21:46

My friend was in a garden the

21:48

other day that turned out to be

21:50

in nunnery in like near Hoxton and

21:52

the gardener had been gardening there since

21:55

he was a little boy and he

21:57

is now an old man and he

21:59

said I love the nuns there are

22:01

only nine of them left. you wouldn't

22:03

think it, but because they're nuns, you

22:05

know, you'd think that they are gentle

22:08

and sweet, they fight like cat and

22:10

dog. And I loved this. I love

22:12

that. I got a lot of love

22:14

for nuns as a concept. I never

22:16

went to a convent school anything like

22:18

that, but I once spent a couple

22:21

of days at a convent and I

22:23

was writing a book about John Dunn,

22:25

and I was writing a book about

22:27

John Dunn. library of novels. She gave

22:29

me a novel about Ann Dunn and

22:31

John Dunn. John Dunn, the Renaissance poet.

22:34

And I didn't read it at the

22:36

time, and I got it home, and

22:38

it was borderline porn. Which I just

22:40

loved. She didn't have them hanging around.

22:42

It was in the Nunn library. Yeah,

22:44

it was sexy. Again, it sort of

22:47

takes you to like, this is one

22:49

of the most successful films of all

22:51

time, probably the most successful movie musical

22:53

of all time. And how odd this

22:55

is a plot, like starting in a

22:57

nunnery, woman getting kicked out of a

23:00

nunnery for being two something. To,

23:03

to, what is it that we are

23:05

suggested in the film she is too

23:08

much of, too disobedient to the, too

23:10

unable to fit herself into the strictures

23:12

of the rigor of the life that

23:15

these women have chosen? I guess, yeah.

23:17

Too hot. Too hot. Too wild. Too

23:19

hot for the convent. Not hot enough

23:22

for normal life. It's a problem many

23:24

of us have. It really is. I

23:26

find it every day. And then I,

23:28

just to go on to say, so

23:31

she gets her sort of assignment with

23:33

the von traps. And then I realized

23:35

something on watching it this time, though

23:38

I had never realized before. Are you

23:40

by any chance a fan or a

23:42

previous audience member of The Book of

23:45

Mormon? I have seen the Book of

23:47

Mormon. What do you think of the

23:49

Book of Mormon? I remember thinking that

23:51

it was beautifully sung and much less

23:54

scandalous than we had been promised. Yes.

23:56

It felt like it was right for

23:58

your great aunt to come down from

24:01

Kent. Yeah, it's a real, the thing

24:03

is, I have a conversation with Tach

24:05

all the time about Operation Minsmead, and

24:08

how a lot of Operation Minsmead's success

24:10

is similar to Book of Mormon success,

24:12

which is a musical you can bring

24:14

your dad and brother to. There's very

24:17

few of those. I went with my

24:19

brother to the Book of Mormon. It's

24:21

where we go. But I realized when

24:24

I was watching Maria perform, I have

24:26

confidence. Literally the line, a captain with

24:28

seven children, what so fearsome about that?

24:31

Like literally a warlord who shoots people

24:33

in the face, what so scary about

24:35

that? And like there's so many lines

24:37

in it that reference like specifically the

24:40

book Mormon specifically referencing and I had

24:42

this crazy thing of like oh yeah

24:44

the book of Mormon is also a

24:47

play about missionaries and people of faith

24:49

trying to like operate in the real

24:51

world after like cloistered life and it

24:54

was so strange but like the cheesiest

24:56

musical that most mainstream thing ever paired

24:58

with the kind of the edgiest sort

25:00

of like wow I can't believe they

25:03

said that musical so anti-establishment and they

25:05

are essentially mirrors of one another. I

25:07

mean perfect and of course the other

25:10

thing is if you're writing a musical

25:12

now it will be in the shadow

25:14

of the sound of music and the

25:17

side story there is no way not

25:19

to know that anyone who comes to

25:21

you to see a musical deliberately has

25:23

those already in their blood and so

25:26

you're gonna have to do something about

25:28

it. Because ultimately, like these, you know,

25:30

you and I are a novelist so

25:33

we know very much about what plots

25:35

need when. But there's a lot of

25:37

elasticity with that. Like, for example, you

25:40

know, the meeting of the elder is

25:42

a plot point in most novels. But

25:44

that elder can be anyone. It can

25:46

be a talking dragon. It can be

25:49

a finance manager. Do you know what

25:51

I mean? It can be anybody.

25:53

musicals are a little

25:56

bit stricter. Like, Like

25:58

there's kind of, songs that

26:00

need to be

26:03

there to the same

26:05

in most musicals, and

26:07

and this kind of the, I have

26:10

confidence, the kind of confidence the kind

26:12

of for your big task your big in is basically

26:14

in every musical to it's it's crazy

26:16

to me how there are like these

26:18

stations of the in musical that that be

26:20

be with and you must follow whether

26:22

you were the Book of Mormon or the

26:24

subject of music. you know. Which makes makes

26:27

perfect sense because when we go we go

26:29

into a musical are are going to

26:31

be given something very specific, something

26:33

much more specific than a novel,

26:35

Especially a novel can be 60

26:37

pages or 700 pages and a

26:39

musical, a broadly speaking, has to be

26:41

between to be About two hours forty. About two hours forty.

26:43

I love the idea that you can take an the

26:45

idea that you can take an

26:47

archetype, take a really intense structure it.

26:49

make something fresh with it. It's the

26:51

same reckoning as a haiku that the the

26:53

discipline of the form that you have

26:55

to. into can be a be a way

26:57

to liberate yourself that sometimes that discipline

27:00

is the way that magic happens. It's

27:02

not it it's because you have you have

27:04

these strictures. completely and because when people expect

27:06

certain things and then you give it

27:08

to them the amount you can also

27:10

say you they're relaxed because they know they're

27:12

in good hands know they're in kind of

27:15

incorrect which is why I think in great which

27:17

is of. the thematic sort of

27:19

optimism and ambition of the sound

27:21

of... works so well because it just fit

27:23

just fit into these a movie that begins

27:25

to be about a be about a about

27:27

being nervous about being a nanny you know. like you

27:29

the Nazis the Nazis and and the Angeles, do

27:31

you know what mean? mean? Like, specifically the

27:33

Anschluss, which is like a part of

27:35

World War II that people just do

27:38

not care about. about. you mean? mean? Do

27:40

It doesn't really get into people's people's

27:42

the same way. in forget way. Austria,

27:44

about forget about 1938. I think

27:46

so many people learn about the people

27:48

learn from 1939. from 1939. Yeah. Yeah. And they

27:50

And they learn about the French resistance

27:52

and the Holocaust and the Americans

27:54

getting involved and sort of the

27:56

kind of and sort of the kind of later stage things.

27:58

And of course for Austria, truly a... that changed

28:01

and reshaped the country forever. Yeah.

28:03

And it's a really interesting one.

28:05

Maybe we talk about it later,

28:07

but the idea that one of

28:09

the main plot points of this

28:11

book, film, is Nazis. Yeah. Because

28:13

that was true to their life.

28:16

The real Gayo Ghan Trapp was

28:18

indeed. an anti-Nazi who did suffer

28:20

real fear that he would be

28:22

prosecuted for it. He refused to

28:24

sing at his birthday. He refused

28:26

a job with the Nazi Navy

28:28

and his son refused a job

28:31

at a hospital that had just

28:33

recently fired all of its Jewish

28:35

doctors, which did put you in

28:37

the firing line for arrest for

28:39

persecution. So they were in danger.

28:43

But of course, when the film

28:45

came out, one of the criticisms

28:48

that was leveled at it by

28:50

Joan Dydian was, I do not

28:52

think it is fair to have

28:55

something so dark made to the

28:57

service of something so slight. Because

28:59

she felt that it was, she

29:02

said, it makes it look like

29:04

history need not happen to people

29:06

like Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer,

29:09

that you can whistle a happy

29:11

June and the arch loss goes

29:14

away. And I don't think that

29:16

that criticism is entirely fair, but

29:18

I can absolutely see a point

29:21

that it gestures towards the Nazis,

29:23

but it doesn't fully recognize the

29:25

horror of the decimation of the

29:28

entirety of the European Jewish population,

29:30

of the way that Europe would

29:32

be reshaped in terrible ways forever.

29:35

And I don't know, how did

29:37

you feel about that when you

29:39

were... Do you know

29:42

what, I, because my Wikipedia is as

29:44

purple linked as it is, there was

29:46

a moment, I do agree with Diddy

29:48

in many ways in that, like it

29:51

is, maybe it's because the timing of

29:53

the film, because it was just 20

29:55

years after the Second World War, I

29:58

think things could be said in subtext

30:00

that need not be explicit. if we

30:02

were making it today, we would need

30:05

far more explicit Nazi references to really

30:07

drive home the point of like, you

30:09

know, for seven and 11 year olds

30:12

kind of seeing it, like, this is

30:14

what the Nazis were, this is why

30:16

we can never repeat this kind of

30:19

fascism again, although, yeah. But it wasn't

30:21

necessary for an audience to be taught

30:23

why the Nazis were terrible. It was

30:26

enough to have those flags and to

30:28

have, you know, Georg von Trapp tearing

30:30

them down. But there was this, this

30:33

is this moment where, again, we're skipping

30:35

ahead, that's okay, we all know, we

30:37

all know what's 16 going on 17th

30:39

about, that moment where they realize that

30:42

they're going to have to leave Austria

30:44

and then, of course, the house was

30:46

later taken over by Heinrich Himmler. And

30:49

this, I found it so sort of

30:51

chilling about like, that, yeah, that this

30:53

is, we have, we have learned to

30:56

become at home in this grand house.

30:58

The first time Julie Andrews enters that

31:00

home, it is so enormous and the

31:03

grounds go on forever so far that

31:05

he needs to have whistles to call

31:07

his children because he's going to be

31:10

shouting across them. But then by the

31:12

end of it, we're like, it's Julie's

31:14

house and it's our house too, you

31:17

know, and then they have to leave

31:19

and we know that Nazis are going

31:21

to have their headquarters there. And that's

31:24

really what happened. Actually,

31:26

what the sound of music accomplishes with

31:28

its subtlety is far greater. than what

31:30

it could accomplish with being explicit. Like

31:33

nothing makes me more upset than both

31:35

the Edelweiss sort of the initial playing

31:37

of it when Captain Vantrap is sort

31:39

of like he finally sees his children

31:42

singing, he realizes that joy can come

31:44

back into his house, he melts, he

31:46

takes the guitar, his children gather around

31:48

him, and like it's the act of

31:51

song that like brings him back in

31:53

union with his family and makes life

31:55

good again. And then at the end

31:57

of the film we have this reprise

31:59

where like this song was just an

32:02

hour ago about union is now about

32:04

sort of dissolution where he stands in

32:06

front of the kind of newly Nazi

32:08

territory that is his home. He knows

32:11

he's going to be leaving after this

32:13

song. He knows he will never come

32:15

back. And he leads the Austrians in

32:17

this kind of defiant song of like,

32:20

Bless my homeland forever. And I find

32:22

that so moving, and it speaks for

32:24

so much kind of experience of people

32:26

who did have to leave their homes

32:28

forever. And I find it so effective

32:31

because it's subtle. What do you think?

32:33

I think it is possible that the

32:35

film allows itself to... to

32:38

be maybe lighter. The film offers

32:40

the chance for you to watch

32:43

it and feel a kind of

32:45

softness and not to have to

32:47

face the actual truths about that

32:49

war and about that Holocaust. But

32:51

I think if you watch it

32:53

now as an adult, I find

32:55

the ending very dark because you

32:58

bring your own dread and you

33:00

bring your own knowledge. And I

33:02

think maybe the film can be

33:04

watched by people and sentimentalized and

33:06

dismissed and you can watch it

33:08

I think and not really have

33:11

to come face to face with

33:13

what truly happened. But if you

33:15

know what truly happened, if you're

33:17

an educated adult, which we all

33:19

are, we all know. then I

33:21

think it's a much darker film

33:23

as an adult. And when I

33:26

watch it now in those final

33:28

scenes, you do know that behind

33:30

it all there is horror. And

33:32

it does just have those gestures

33:34

towards horror. And I'm so grateful

33:36

for them. But this actually leads

33:39

us really nicely into like one

33:41

of the few actual Nazi characters

33:43

that we have in the sound

33:45

of music, which is Ralph. And

33:47

him as being like this incredibly

33:49

effective thing of like we only

33:52

meet him maybe three or perhaps

33:54

four times. the musical. The first

33:56

time is for 16 going on

33:58

17, delivers the telegram to Lisa

34:00

and they have that astounding greenhouse

34:02

scene, which is just... And when

34:04

you're a kid, of course, when

34:07

I was six, I wouldn't have

34:09

experienced Christopher Plummer as an object

34:11

of sexual intent because he was

34:13

an old man. Yes, it's been

34:15

like Richard and friends. Right. When

34:17

you're 11 and you don't get

34:20

it and then you watch it

34:22

again at like 22 and you're

34:24

like, excuse me? are not projected

34:26

to the audience as objects of

34:28

in any kind of desire, even

34:30

for children, you know, there is

34:32

no one coming and flirting with

34:35

them. Yeah, there's no Zachafron in

34:37

the one traps, you know. Exactly.

34:39

But what there is, is this

34:41

beautiful boy who comes to dance

34:43

with Lisa. And he is offered

34:45

to, you know, the seven-year-old viewer

34:48

as the one that you might

34:50

adore. Because Lisa adores him and

34:52

we all adore Lisa. And so,

34:54

you know, she is on... And

34:56

he dances her around like their

34:58

friend Ginger Rogers. Like, when does

35:00

that character ever become the villain,

35:03

or like evidence of villainry? Do

35:05

you know what I mean? Like,

35:07

if that's crazy that happens, that

35:09

we have this gorgeous thing where

35:11

she's like jumping on the benches,

35:13

he's leading around, the gowns going

35:16

out? In what other movie does

35:18

that character end up being the

35:20

Nazi? And in what other film

35:22

is the only point of sort

35:24

of romantic projection for young viewers?

35:26

twisted and you suddenly see that

35:28

he is in fact the Nazi.

35:31

I mean in some ways this

35:33

film teaches you do not fall

35:35

in love with plausible beautiful blonde

35:37

boys who turn hoarding on you

35:39

because at the heart of it

35:41

there's there's something terrifying you that

35:44

he does have this weakness for

35:46

power and and for oppression.

35:48

But even though he's such an important

35:51

part in the movie, and this is

35:53

why I'm so in awe of the

35:55

sound of music structurally in its storytelling

35:57

and how every character is doing several

36:00

jobs at once, and like that thing

36:02

yes he is like sort of he's

36:04

there to show the kind of Lisa's

36:06

coming of age and first romance and

36:09

that's so important in her character because

36:11

like you know really of the children

36:13

there are only two characters which is

36:15

Lisa and Gretel yeah and the rest

36:18

of them are just like me And,

36:20

you know, that's important, but the thing

36:22

of, like, we see him first in

36:24

this beautiful scene, that all girls, like,

36:27

grow up, which is wanting to be

36:29

Lisa. The leaping between the benches. We

36:31

used to try it. Of course. I

36:33

have fallen off so many benches because

36:36

of that scene. Yes, I lost my

36:38

front tooth because of that scene, because

36:40

jumping from bike rack to bike rag.

36:42

It was very hard. And then the

36:45

next time we see him, I think...

36:47

he's his demeanor is strange and then

36:49

he meets capital and then he kind

36:51

of like says as an afterthought oh

36:54

hi hiller kind of thing and he

36:56

kind of sticks his hand up and

36:58

it's very clumsy but it's like I

37:00

like he's you could almost argue at

37:03

that point you're like well this is

37:05

just a teenage boy growing up in

37:07

Austria who's kind of has to do

37:09

this now but then the next time

37:12

you see him he's a full fucking

37:14

Nazi and he's just like and he's

37:16

like and which is completely transformed He

37:19

betrays them. He betrays them. You know?

37:21

That second scene where you see him,

37:23

where he gives Lisa a telegram and

37:25

she says, don't you want to come

37:28

and deliver it yourself? Yeah. And he,

37:30

I think that it is, one of

37:32

the suggestions is, he is romantically confused

37:34

he doesn't know what to do and

37:37

his final hile Hitler is is what

37:39

he does to cover his uncertainty and

37:41

in that sense that is exactly how

37:43

fascism flies that you take somebody who

37:46

is awkward and resentful of their own

37:48

awkwardness and resentful perhaps of the way

37:50

that the girl is making them feel

37:52

awkward and they just step into totalitarianism

37:55

they step into I kind of brutal

37:57

choreography that is waiting for them to

37:59

welcome them. Yes, oh God, brutal choreography,

38:01

fuck me up Catherine Rental, Jesus Christ.

38:04

Yes, and of course there's a thing

38:06

that doesn't really get talked about either,

38:08

which is that. they're like he is

38:10

a telegram boy and Lisa was the

38:13

favorite daughter of a captain able captain

38:15

living in a huge house like there

38:17

is already a class died realistically they

38:19

cannot really be together kind of thing

38:22

if if their relationship were to ever

38:24

progress that far like I don't think

38:26

Captain Montrap would be pleased about Ralph

38:28

you know Nazi or no and that

38:31

kind of thing of he looks at

38:33

her differently even though she hasn't changed

38:35

and she doesn't understand why yeah Yeah,

38:37

and it's done so lightly. And when

38:40

you're seven, you don't see it. You

38:42

just see this sort of sudden arrow

38:44

through the heart that this boy that

38:46

you loved sort of 18 minutes ago

38:49

is turning dark. But I think as

38:51

an adult, I am in awe of

38:53

the script how much it manages to

38:55

thread through its fundamentally quite simple story.

38:58

Yeah, God is a pretty simple but

39:00

weird story. Deeply, deeply weird. I mean,

39:02

the idea that this was what they

39:05

thought would make one of the world's

39:07

finest musicals. And they were right. You

39:09

know? God, far simpler stories fail all

39:11

the time, you know? It's crazy to

39:14

me. Can we talk about when we

39:16

meet the children? Oh yes, okay, sorry,

39:18

we have skipped over that because that

39:20

is adorable, that scene. It used to

39:23

be my favorite thing. Go on. We

39:25

used to rewind and rewatch it and

39:27

one of the things I love most

39:29

about it is their accents are on

39:32

hinge. Maria sounds British. Christopher Plummer sounds

39:34

British. Their children are a mixture of

39:36

Americans, Canadians, English and one like little

39:38

twang of Australia. Yes. It's course faintly

39:41

like transatlantic British British. But when I

39:43

was, I don't like like 10. As

39:45

a present, someone took me to a

39:47

sing-a-long sound of music with my best

39:50

friend. Oh, fun. I've done one of

39:52

those with Prince Charles. They're really good.

39:54

He was fabulous. Yeah, we should go.

39:56

and I thought so so

39:59

many people dressed up.

40:01

It was divine,

40:03

but as the little one says,

40:06

Kurt, I'm 11, I'm 11, I'm a boy

40:08

at boy at the back of

40:10

the sing -along sound of music

40:12

shouted, music so Austrian. so And

40:14

ever since then, it it is true.

40:16

where have these children been been schooled?

40:19

Why are their are their voices so

40:21

various? By a By succession of governess

40:23

is is different accents also. accents also.

40:25

It's model. complete model. it is is such

40:27

lovely bit that when they all march

40:29

forward their little say little say. such a

40:31

perfect of the of the things that when

40:33

you're writing the fictional film that we

40:35

think about all the time the if you

40:37

have a bigger cast how do you

40:40

introduce people to that cast to your

40:42

ensemble to your heist crew, you know, how do know

40:44

how do we introduce the characters in

40:46

in Oceans 11? Yeah, yeah. And the best best way that

40:48

has ever been invented has been Christopher

40:50

blowing a whistle. It's so good. Because like, so good of

40:52

reminds me later on, later in the movie where it kind

40:54

of reminds me later on later in

40:56

the movie where his children, which is another Captain

40:58

Von hot scene doesn't know his children, which is

41:00

another extremely at the where they yell at each other.

41:02

She's just been when they yell at each other. She's

41:04

very wet. She's just been in the like wet like

41:06

that like that's just all of her ever looked wet like that.

41:08

just her to stuck to stuck to her tiny her just stuck to her tiny

41:10

waist. and she says something like, she kind of

41:12

goes through a long list of what the children

41:14

are like and what list - need and how they

41:16

love the whatever and there's one of the kids

41:18

and she's like need I don't really know

41:20

what so -and -so is like, but someone

41:22

needs to, one of that's so funny. and so

41:24

real. I don't really know what so

41:27

It's Louisa, I don't know but is

41:29

also the needs to, but actress, I think,

41:31

who is slightly too It's for her

41:33

role. That's Louisa, isn't it? about yeah.

41:35

And I think who is all slightly puzzled

41:37

by. actress I But, you know, is slightly

41:40

and Julie for her role. I don't know what

41:42

she wants yet, but but someone is. It's so

41:44

well delivered. so well -delivered. way she delivers

41:46

those lines and like, it's, and it's so so

41:48

strange to have her, her, Julie Andrews,

41:50

occupy both the kind of Mary both the

41:53

kind of Mary Poppins and, um,

41:55

uh, Maria von Trapp roll, because... they

41:57

are they are similar in that they're

41:59

both full. this kind of star dust and

42:01

whimsy or whatever, but Mary Poppins knows everything

42:04

and Maria Von Trapp is making it up

42:06

as she goes along and it really feels

42:08

that way and what makes it so lovely

42:10

and why you do believe you'd have like

42:13

the best day ever with her? Yeah, the

42:15

idea that she has a gift for like

42:17

the improvisation of delight, that is something that

42:19

we don't know that many people who can

42:22

do that but we ever, everyone knows one.

42:24

Yeah. And they are people who just do,

42:26

you know, shine through their days. She is

42:28

one of them. She is also responsible for

42:31

the fact that for like a decade I

42:33

didn't know what the word incorrigible meant. Because

42:35

Little Boy says I'm incorrigible. Once incorrigible. I

42:37

think it means you want to be treated

42:40

like a boy. No, it doesn't. Absolutely doesn't

42:42

mean that. It doesn't mean that even slightly.

42:44

But for a decade I thought it did.

42:47

I'm Gretel and neither can I

42:49

fingers? No, is that what's Gretel's

42:51

interest? No, she just holds up

42:53

her little five fingers and later

42:55

she says, I got a sore

42:57

finger. It got caught, caught in

42:59

what? Friedrich's teeth. I love them.

43:01

They're just magnificent in the final

43:03

scene. I read this this morning

43:05

when they're hiking up over the

43:07

mountains. Little Gretel over the course

43:09

of the summer had got too

43:11

big and heavy and she couldn't

43:13

fit on his shoulders. He refused

43:15

to carry her. It's a stunt

43:17

double. No! Oh, that's such a

43:19

good little fact! I love that!

43:21

Oh, little Gretel! Poor little Gretel!

43:23

Got big! I can't believe that

43:25

she couldn't even be in the

43:27

final scene! She's like, no, we'll

43:29

stand over there. God, I hope

43:31

she was okay for the rest

43:33

of her life after Christopher Plummer

43:35

says, you're too big to carry

43:37

and you can't be. When you're...

43:39

five years old. That is really

43:41

the makings of a complex isn't

43:43

it? Ain't that? Woof. And they're

43:45

very cruel to her and I

43:48

love when she makes them all

43:50

cry. Which she's like and how

43:52

you must have known how scared

43:54

I must have been being my

43:56

first day in this new house.

43:58

a new job. How welcoming you

44:00

the bit! The whole person's dear

44:02

is so good. It's brilliant. And

44:04

that feels like a brilliant joke

44:06

for kids. Like I remember loving

44:08

that as a kid. Fabulous. And

44:10

then Lisa coming through the window

44:12

on the storm. Oh, I'm looking

44:14

so beautiful and very much looking

44:16

22, but that's okay. We don't

44:18

mind. I love how like both

44:20

Julie Andrews and the actress who

44:22

played Lisa have both come out

44:24

about their enormous crushes on Christian

44:26

Blubber and how neither one of

44:28

them sort of came to anything.

44:30

And how Christopher Plummer wanted to

44:32

have an affair with Judy Andrews,

44:34

but he couldn't because of geography

44:36

and time. And the interviewer said,

44:38

and the interviewer watched, said, what

44:40

do you mean, geography and time?

44:42

She said, well, she had her

44:44

kids with her and they put

44:46

her at a hotel the other

44:48

side of town and it was

44:50

a very busy shooting schedule. I

44:52

mean, we were both married, but

44:54

we should have had an affair.

44:56

So cranky. I love him. That

44:58

makes me so happy. I didn't

45:00

know that. Just like, oh, they

45:02

put her in another hotel. You

45:04

can tell on purpose. It would

45:06

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45:08

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45:17

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In four weeks, a typical Noom Noom

46:25

Noom Noom. Okay,

46:30

can now we talk about the Baroness

46:33

and Max. Because the thing about this

46:35

movie is that it is seven movies.

46:37

It is a whimsical musical for children.

46:39

It is a romantic comedy. It's a

46:42

romantic drama. It's a kind of society

46:44

drama. It's a thriller in the last

46:46

five minutes. And like, it's probably something

46:48

else as well. But like when she

46:51

went to puppet show for a brief

46:53

five minutes. It's the longest puppet show

46:55

probably ever in cinema. We used to

46:57

fast forward through the puppet show. Yeah,

47:00

I have no love for the puppet

47:02

show anymore. Fabulous as it is gifted

47:04

and full of precision. I would love

47:07

to know when they came into this

47:09

movie like three hours ten or whatever,

47:11

something crazy. Like, was there any point

47:13

where they're like, you know, we could

47:16

make the puppet show a little shorter?

47:18

Possibly there's some kind of, I mean,

47:20

we haven't thought about this carefully, but

47:22

maybe in the puppet show there's some

47:25

kind of symbolism or gesture or clue

47:27

that we're supposed to be finding. I

47:29

really, I really close my tax return

47:32

to watch, to watch the puppet show

47:34

very closely. If anyone knows anything, please

47:36

sound me. Please do write in. I

47:38

almost never want people to write in,

47:41

but like symbolic interpretations of the puppet

47:43

show, because I think there's nothing in

47:45

it. Hi on a hill there's a

47:47

loony goathead. And then she yodels back

47:50

and then soon have a mask gleaming

47:52

gloats. So her mother is involved. Yeah,

47:54

mother's involved. And then there's a baby

47:56

and then there's also the two goats

47:59

also have a baby. Yeah. appears to

48:01

be the entirety of the story that

48:03

we're offered by the puppets. And it's

48:06

very strange because it's hard to know

48:08

what they even serve as like narratively

48:10

because the whole thing is that Max

48:12

Detweiler, Uncle Max, who's nobody's uncle, therefore

48:15

is a gay man. who

48:17

I think should be a lot

48:19

more nervous about the nancies than

48:21

he is, should, yeah, he wants

48:23

to exploit their talent for his,

48:26

so he's some kind of agent

48:28

or something, or he's putting on

48:30

festivals and all that kind of

48:32

thing. And the puppet show he

48:34

has ordered, but has charged Gay

48:36

York, which I think is fun,

48:38

but he doesn't want them to

48:40

be puppeteers. He wants them to

48:43

be singers beautifully in a row.

48:45

It's bewildering to me and I

48:47

assume that they thought kids will

48:49

love it and every kid I

48:51

know it was like no no

48:53

no no no we love we

48:55

love curtains and learning to sing

48:57

yeah we don't we don't love

48:59

those slightly creepy puppets yeah their

49:02

eyes are very involving and the

49:04

involvement of the mother even as

49:06

a child that was like that

49:08

seems unacceptable to me or the

49:10

involvement of oh yes the mother

49:12

It's very opaque. Why won't you

49:14

let me talk with Baroness? Rachel

49:16

Baroness, coming must talk about the

49:19

finest part in the entire film.

49:21

And the most beautiful woman. She's

49:23

so... She's incredible? Gorgeous. And like,

49:25

again, doing several things at once

49:27

in that movie, because what's so

49:29

interesting about as well when you

49:31

kind of watch it again is,

49:33

sort of the splintering of the

49:35

self that Captain Von Trapp has,

49:38

that at home... he's this sadist

49:40

freak with his whistle and hates

49:42

his kids and hates everything and

49:44

then he just like goes off

49:46

to be a debonair gent that

49:48

swings among the parties with aristocrats

49:50

and you know it's so his

49:52

personality around the Baroness and around

49:55

Max is different to

49:57

who he is

49:59

with Maria when has

50:01

a sort of sort

50:03

of who he is with his kids. is

50:05

with weird fake personality he has. It's

50:07

so interesting to me, but they

50:10

also they also seem quite happy - together,

50:12

those two. those two. And there's reason they

50:14

should be be married. She has done nothing

50:16

wrong wrong. This is the thing that when is

50:18

the thing that when you're a

50:20

kid you're like She's getting in the way. She seems

50:22

evil. Right. And then you watch it you watch

50:24

it again you're like just. just elegant. And

50:26

yes, she doesn't like doesn't like the kids

50:28

but seven of them and they haven't

50:30

been been nice to So, you know, I know. how

50:32

awkward love how awkward she is

50:34

with them. that I find that very sweet

50:36

actually, because she wants to try hard.

50:38

to try hard and bit where bit where her and

50:40

her sitting on the terrace sitting on the he's

50:42

a bit like, well, a bit I hear

50:44

well, do I hear or whatever? or And she's

50:46

like, I get the feeling I'm here

50:48

on approval feeling I'm here on kids have to

50:50

like me if we're gonna get married.

50:52

And to like me if we're gonna need this wedding.

50:55

She's crucially, the parents in love

50:57

with this She's in love. a in

50:59

love. They're canonically in love.

51:01

They have a good time. good time.

51:03

And, um, and, and you could, and her awkwardness, which

51:05

her awkwardness. with her elegance, just means

51:07

of pairs with her elegance. Just means she

51:09

doesn't know what to do because she knows

51:11

that everything depends on these kids liking her

51:13

but she doesn't know how to communicate with

51:15

kids. with pretty quite sad. quite sad. Although she

51:17

does, like, what is the what is

51:19

the classic and we way that

51:21

we can signal is evil? is evil?

51:24

you You say, of a you ever

51:26

heard of a little thing

51:28

called Which, again, I know, like, McSweeny is a famous

51:30

again, I about this, which everybody has about this,

51:32

loves has read. it to the loves it.

51:34

I will link it to it

51:36

haven't read it, but you haven't read it,

51:38

but Baroness writing to her friends, to her friends

51:41

to say the wedding is cancelled.

51:43

It's very funny. But what that article points

51:45

out is, out is, children should be

51:47

in boarding school. in school. They don't appear

51:49

to do lessons at any point. Can

51:51

they read? We don't know. know. We don't

51:53

know. know. And like, I I don't think

51:55

it's weird. I it's good for a good

51:57

for to hang out with her hang out

51:59

-old 5-year-old sister. room by the same

52:01

one person? It's not a sound

52:03

system of education. No. They should

52:05

go to school. They should have

52:08

friends their own age. They should.

52:10

Those ones in the middle are

52:12

doing good because they seem both

52:14

the same age, but come on.

52:16

Exactly. Who's Lisa hanging out with?

52:18

Who's Lisa hanging out with? Not

52:20

a Nazi boyfriend anymore? Like, I

52:22

just love that woman. Yes, she

52:25

manipulates Maria into quitting her job

52:27

and leaving. But I think she

52:29

does it very gracefully and she

52:31

does it in this way where

52:33

she's like, I kind of like,

52:35

you know, so that they have

52:37

the ball and the captain and

52:39

Maria have a beautiful dance together

52:42

and the Baroness sees it and

52:44

she sort of said, and then

52:46

Maria is invited to dinner and

52:48

you know, I'll end you something

52:50

of mine and they go upstairs

52:52

so that Marie can change and

52:54

Baroness is like, I don't think

52:56

you understand that this is kind

52:58

of appropriate. the relationship that you

53:01

have with my fiancé, your boss,

53:03

it could be quite dangerous for

53:05

him and you. Have you thought

53:07

about how you're behaving here? Because

53:09

I know you grew up in

53:11

a nunnery and you might not

53:13

really understand the nuances of like

53:15

heterosexual dynamics, just so we're clear.

53:18

Which I find very fucking classy

53:20

actually. You caught your fiancé dancing

53:22

with his employee in a really

53:24

sexy way. Right. After you are

53:26

officially engaged in the ball that

53:28

is taking place, it's essentially a

53:30

ball for your engagement. I think

53:32

that it isn't unfair to think

53:35

that that is not fantastic behavior

53:37

from anyone. The classiest way you

53:39

can behave is to take that

53:41

woman privately aside and say, I

53:43

know you're young and naive, but

53:45

you kind of need to see

53:47

the bigger picture here. And the

53:49

classiest thing for me is, do

53:51

we leave? So I just want

53:54

to, I want to never hear

53:56

a bad word against that one.

53:58

And like, I just, I also

54:00

just love how like this movie

54:02

up and up, which up onto

54:04

this point is like this family,

54:06

comedy, comedy, drama, musical thing. like

54:08

just Baroness and Max just bring

54:11

this other movie in like this

54:13

other kind of sleek 60s sort

54:15

of intelligent yeah they are gesturing

54:17

to an entire other form of

54:19

cinema an entire history of cinema

54:21

and an entirely different vision of

54:23

the way the world operates and

54:25

just hovers at the edges of

54:28

the film, which is fundamentally a

54:30

family film, broadly for children, but

54:32

there is just this edge. Like

54:34

we know that there are places

54:36

where there are politics and money

54:38

and class and beauty and a

54:40

striving to be at the core

54:42

of a society that there is

54:44

ambition, that Max wants to be

54:47

rich and established and like... This

54:49

idea that there is a world

54:51

where people are fighting for specific,

54:53

socially nuanced things. Yes. And it

54:55

just hovers at the side as

54:57

Maria is there in her boat

54:59

falling into the water. Yeah, yeah,

55:01

yeah. It's such a perfect little

55:04

chemical balance or something of this

55:06

entire other, like they're in the

55:08

Philadelphia story, you know, they're in

55:10

some other classic movie in which

55:12

they are not villains. Exactly, exactly.

55:14

They are in films starring Catherine

55:16

Hepburn in Black and White and

55:18

Kerry Grant. Yeah. And then we

55:21

just have this folksy little nanny.

55:23

This fabulous nun. Yeah. It was

55:25

terrible hair. It's, it's a, I

55:27

love that there's just this, just

55:29

this dusting of the sense that

55:31

there is a bigger world and

55:33

they belong to it. Yeah. It's

55:35

so good. Fabulous. Can you imagine

55:37

going to that party? And it's

55:40

like, oh my God, Baroness von

55:42

Schrader, the famous Vietnamese like international

55:44

beauty. We're going to her bold,

55:46

but most of it would be

55:48

the children singing singing. You imagine?

55:50

It's like towards the end of

55:52

the Weimar Republic, Germany and Austria

55:54

have never been more liberated. It's

55:57

all like, people are gay. trans,

55:59

you know, and I'm like, oh,

56:01

we're listening to a five-year-old singer,

56:03

herself to bet. I

56:08

would have been delighted. I love

56:10

that at the end the children

56:12

sing goodbye and the entire group

56:14

of adults. Like a tabernacle choir

56:16

and a sensation. It is like

56:18

that yeah when you're in your

56:20

friend's house who has a kid

56:23

and like they're like oh thingy

56:25

wants to say good night and

56:27

you're like good night go to

56:29

bed I want to drink wine

56:31

and swear. Can

56:35

we talk about the scene where

56:37

Maria and the captain dance? Oh,

56:39

yes. So I... It was one

56:42

of the things that when I

56:44

was a kid, I didn't care.

56:46

I didn't particularly enjoy that scene.

56:48

I think we were probably slightly

56:50

fast-forwarding through that too. And as

56:52

an adult, she's dancing with Kurt.

56:54

And on the inside, the ball

56:56

is going on and they're dancing

56:58

the same dance that everyone is

57:00

dancing. And you can just see

57:02

them in the background and they're

57:04

sort of like older couples. And

57:07

so she's trying to teach this

57:09

little boy. He's not good. She's...

57:11

Julie Andrews is not a sensationly

57:13

good dancer. No. And then you

57:15

get Christopher Plummer and he comes

57:17

and he stands in the doorway

57:19

and he's wearing white gloves and

57:21

he just pulls them tighter on

57:23

his wristssts. And it's spectacularly erotic.

57:25

It's just fantastic. And you know,

57:27

that famous scene in the modern

57:29

Pride and Prejudice where Matthew McFadden

57:32

just flexes his hand, which the

57:34

Gen Z just wild for, but

57:36

I, my allegiance will always be

57:38

to Christopher Plummer and his gloves.

57:40

And the way that that scene

57:42

is lit and the softness with

57:44

which they shine, it's just brilliant.

57:46

Even though neither of them are

57:48

brilliant dances, it doesn't matter. It's

57:50

such a wonderful thing when you

57:52

notice a... a really studied performance,

57:54

always noticing what that character's hands

57:57

are doing, because like it is

57:59

sort of the part of the

58:01

body that is exposed on the

58:03

door and all the time. If

58:05

you think of like an actor

58:07

like Christopher Bummer, or even Matthew

58:09

McFadden Pride and Prejudice, we are

58:11

seeing the face which is doing

58:13

what the acting it tells it

58:15

to do, which is to say

58:17

the words in a sad or

58:19

happy or anguished way. And then

58:22

everything else is covered up. The

58:24

only bear on and on thing

58:26

we see is the hands. And

58:28

so the kind of the Matthew

58:30

McFadden sort of flexing slightly because

58:32

basically that's the one place where

58:34

he can show his sort of

58:36

like mammal body energy where he's

58:38

like not a refined man of

58:40

society. He's just a man who

58:42

wants to touch a woman. You're

58:44

a kind of thing, you know?

58:47

It's perfect. And the scene the

58:49

dance involves, it's truly just delightful,

58:51

it involves one of them stands

58:53

still and the other one dances

58:55

around the other. And he collapses,

58:57

he dances around her. And his,

58:59

again I only noticed this when

59:01

I watched it for this podcast,

59:03

but his eyes just go up

59:05

and down her and up and

59:07

down her. What's so

59:10

deeply erotic about Captain Von Trapp

59:12

as a character is like, he's

59:14

what Dolly calls a Campadom. He

59:16

is? He's just like, he's like,

59:18

somebody who enjoys, really a core

59:20

is silly. Do you know what

59:22

I mean? And I think my

59:24

favorite thing, I will only ever

59:26

love silly people. And that is

59:28

a laugh for me for life.

59:30

Because anybody who understands and is

59:33

silly, it means that they have

59:35

a part of their personality where

59:37

they know what's worth taking seriously.

59:39

And one must exist at the

59:41

other. So it's like, we have

59:43

Captain Montrap who loves the puppet

59:45

show and loves to sing and

59:47

is so obsessed with his kids

59:49

and is kind of is actually

59:51

silly. And that silliness allows heir

59:53

for the deeply principled side of

59:55

him. to shine and do you

59:58

know what I mean? It's like

1:00:00

I will, I no longer have

1:00:02

any space, time, effort, energy, to

1:00:04

respond to, reply to or whatever.

1:00:06

People who are taking everything ambienly

1:00:08

seriously. I want people who are

1:00:10

taking huge waves of life, not

1:00:12

seriously at all, and some things

1:00:14

very seriously. Exactly. If that makes

1:00:16

sense, does that make sense at

1:00:18

all? I don't know. Yes, I

1:00:21

think this is, in some ways,

1:00:23

a film perfectly about that. The

1:00:25

idea that like, there will be

1:00:27

some things that will be worth

1:00:29

just throwing your entire soul at

1:00:31

the feet of someone or a

1:00:33

cause or a truth. And then

1:00:35

sometimes in order to make that

1:00:37

possible, you do have to. watch

1:00:39

a puppet show with like singing

1:00:41

goats and you do have to

1:00:43

be like with a bit with

1:00:45

complete commitment like like commitment to

1:00:47

the silly commitment to the idea

1:00:49

of like humankind's eternal desire to

1:00:51

laugh yes like not to get

1:00:53

all um John done about this

1:00:55

okay no you have to you

1:00:57

must you've been very good so

1:00:59

far you got mentioned it barely

1:01:01

at all My academic

1:01:03

background is in the Renaissance poet

1:01:06

John Dunn and he was the

1:01:08

Dean of St. Paul's Cathedral and

1:01:10

he stood up in the pulpit

1:01:13

at a time when there was

1:01:15

a big puritan push to suggest

1:01:18

that laughter itself was sinful. And

1:01:20

he stood in the pulpit and

1:01:22

he said, not to laugh, that

1:01:25

is the stupidity, that is the

1:01:27

contempt. And I just think that

1:01:29

the sound of music agrees with

1:01:32

John Dunn. Yeah. And with you.

1:01:34

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is

1:01:36

a film that does that thing

1:01:39

that great films do, which is

1:01:41

it teaches children how to rejoice.

1:01:43

Yeah, oh, I love this, love

1:01:46

you. I just like, we need

1:01:48

to get to a position where

1:01:51

we, where we, we scold the

1:01:53

scolds. People who are just scolding

1:01:55

everything as their main form of

1:01:58

political action, we must scold that.

1:02:00

And it's not enough. If your

1:02:02

main voice. political action is scolding,

1:02:05

you will think that that is

1:02:07

practice. You will think that that

1:02:09

is political action, but it isn't.

1:02:12

And therefore your energy will dissipate

1:02:14

into a sea of nothing. And

1:02:16

we need to keep that energy

1:02:19

that the scolds have, because it's

1:02:21

powerfully important. But it can't be

1:02:24

spent lecturing people on the internet.

1:02:26

It's got to be spent doing

1:02:28

something bigger and bolder and sharper,

1:02:31

braver than that. Captain Von Trapp

1:02:33

would never have Instagram. He would

1:02:35

never share a graphic on Instagram.

1:02:38

No, never. Because

1:02:40

actually this is the first part

1:02:42

of the movie where like the

1:02:44

captain shows sort of like political

1:02:47

you know what I'm talking about

1:02:49

rigidity I guess against the incoming

1:02:51

Nazi party because he is scolded

1:02:53

for having the Austrian flag up

1:02:56

rather than the Nazi flag and

1:02:58

he says something Like, to this

1:03:00

character, I can't remember the name

1:03:02

of, but he is just the

1:03:05

kind of the old Nazi kind

1:03:07

of thing who's excited about the

1:03:09

Nazis. And he says something like,

1:03:11

oh, when the Nazis do come,

1:03:14

I'm sure you'll be playing the

1:03:16

tune very loudly. And then the

1:03:18

other guy says, oh, you compliment

1:03:20

me. And Captain Montrap says, really,

1:03:23

I meant to accuse you. He's

1:03:25

just so direct and firm at

1:03:27

this party where he's just down

1:03:30

with his nanny. It's just so

1:03:32

fit. It's so hot. And of

1:03:34

course the film simplifies their actual

1:03:36

resistance to the Nazis. The film

1:03:39

makes it much tighter in time

1:03:41

and space. Of course it has

1:03:43

to. But it is true that

1:03:45

they did resist, and it is

1:03:48

true that people did resist. And

1:03:50

I think perhaps the film, the

1:03:52

film perhaps makes it look like

1:03:54

more people resisted in Austria than

1:03:57

they did. That final scene, the

1:03:59

extraordinary scene that I love so

1:04:01

much when they sing Edelweiss. the

1:04:03

stage, which is so moving, and

1:04:06

the cold crowd sings back in

1:04:08

a gesture of the science, where

1:04:10

of course we know that Austrian

1:04:13

citizenry in fact was eager to

1:04:15

denounce Jews in hiding, that it

1:04:17

was in its dark, dark history

1:04:19

that Austria has, especially Austrian aristocracy

1:04:22

and the Austrian upper class. But

1:04:25

nonetheless, it is true that people

1:04:27

did, and that the Vontraps did,

1:04:29

and that, you know, when horror

1:04:31

comes, people do. And I think

1:04:34

sometimes these films, even though they're

1:04:36

incredibly simplistic, just reminding people what

1:04:38

it looks like to stand up,

1:04:40

it is worth having them, even

1:04:42

if they're romanticized, even if they're

1:04:44

somewhat absurd, even if they gloss

1:04:46

over really important bits of the

1:04:48

reality, I think they do still

1:04:50

say, stand up. Yeah. And you

1:04:53

know, I think kids watch that

1:04:55

and I think it helps them

1:04:57

build a blueprint for what it

1:04:59

might look like to stand up.

1:05:01

Yeah. We've been here quite a

1:05:03

long time, but there is still

1:05:05

so much for us to say,

1:05:07

I think. Yeah, we can always.

1:05:10

What would you not forgive yourself?

1:05:12

I mean, we have to, we

1:05:14

have to talk about the way

1:05:16

this movie just simply becomes a

1:05:18

thriller. and such a taut tight

1:05:20

thriller. Although hang on, we haven't

1:05:22

talked about the sort of the

1:05:24

realization of love between the Captain

1:05:27

and Maria. So what do you

1:05:29

want to talk about first? I

1:05:31

guess Captain Maria being in love

1:05:33

happens first. Captain Maria being in

1:05:35

love then. The wedding. The wedding.

1:05:37

Tell me your thoughts about the

1:05:39

wedding. I get very upset every

1:05:41

time I was texting about this

1:05:43

that the nuns have to watch

1:05:46

from behind a cage. I hate

1:05:48

when nuns are in the cage.

1:05:50

I think it's scary. I thought

1:05:52

it was scary when I was

1:05:54

a kid and I think it's

1:05:56

scary now. I love that wedding.

1:05:58

I love her dress. She is

1:06:00

so beautiful. one of the first

1:06:03

times you realize just how fantastic

1:06:05

her figure is. But as a

1:06:07

kid, it doesn't cater to a

1:06:09

kid's desires. The cathedral is enormous

1:06:11

and grand, but the shots they

1:06:13

use are more to, they shine

1:06:15

light on the grandness of the

1:06:17

architecture than on her. Yes! There

1:06:20

aren't that many glory shots of

1:06:22

her as a bride. And

1:06:24

I guess it's more that it's about

1:06:26

the solemnity of the occasion and about

1:06:28

the nuns watching her and hilariously singing

1:06:31

a song about how difficult she has.

1:06:33

As she goes to be aware of

1:06:35

that. I call Maria. I love it.

1:06:37

When you were a kid, did you

1:06:39

closely associate Maria Vantrap and Princess Diana?

1:06:41

I didn't. No, did you? I really

1:06:43

did. I sort of thought they were

1:06:45

the same. It's a very, very, very

1:06:47

early memory of mine because the kind

1:06:50

of looked the same, same vibe. Similar

1:06:52

dresses. Yeah, similar to defiant, outspoken, but

1:06:54

also weirdly shy and meek. And yeah,

1:06:56

I, anyway, I've got none more to

1:06:58

say that. I just always kind of

1:07:00

thought they were the same person. And

1:07:02

some kind of like weird toddler understanding

1:07:04

of it. And then they go on

1:07:07

their honeymoon, but while they're on their

1:07:09

honeymoon, the Nazis come. The Nazis come.

1:07:11

Gayor takes his eye off the ball

1:07:13

for one minute. One second. and the

1:07:15

Nazi flags up. I love that bit

1:07:17

where they, because for some reason, for

1:07:19

whatever reason, Max is in charge. Oh

1:07:21

my god. So they don't have to

1:07:23

introduce a new character. Exactly. And they

1:07:26

say to the old Nazi who we

1:07:28

saw in the party delivers the kind

1:07:30

of Captain Bond Tramp's military summons to

1:07:32

go to Berlin and report for the

1:07:34

war. And Max says, do you know

1:07:36

many men who talk to their children

1:07:38

on their honeymoon? And it's that kind

1:07:40

of, that shot of sex that's just

1:07:43

never goes away in this movie. It's

1:07:45

like, yeah, this is a movie about

1:07:47

kids playing in curtains, but is about

1:07:49

sex. sex And it is

1:07:51

you know in Max,

1:07:53

we know has been

1:07:55

very relaxed about

1:07:57

the the Nazis, the one

1:07:59

moment that the

1:08:02

film gives him just

1:08:04

for a tiny

1:08:06

little bit of for a

1:08:08

tiny little bit rebellion,

1:08:10

protect a tiny gesture towards

1:08:12

them to just a

1:08:14

little defiance, much a little bit.

1:08:16

Yeah, a little bit, not much, how

1:08:19

he how he just like, like, Captain

1:08:21

is very specifically specifically, not

1:08:23

allowed to put my children, children, children

1:08:25

sing in public. Which I remember when

1:08:27

I was a kid I was like, let them sing in public,

1:08:29

let them be in the public, let now in I've

1:08:31

seen hundreds of stories of of

1:08:33

stories of child stars paraded like yeah me. I'm

1:08:35

parenting, now it's good parenting. Don't let your children sing in public. As a kid,

1:08:37

I was would love it, and other people would

1:08:40

love it. a kid, I was This seems like a

1:08:42

they would love it. to show that you are still

1:08:44

quite cruel. As a No, that wasn't what was

1:08:46

happening. play. As a. As a. As a. As just being protective.

1:08:48

That was As a. parenting. As a. As excellent. a. As a.

1:08:50

As a. As a. I love how Max a ignores

1:08:52

it. He's like, a. As a. I've put them As a.

1:08:54

As a. As a. As a. As a. As a. As a. As a. As a.

1:08:56

As a. They come back and I love, what I

1:08:58

come back and I

1:09:01

love this find so fascinating

1:09:03

about this is that on reprises.

1:09:05

Because essentially all musicals have the

1:09:07

same structure and pattern of have

1:09:10

the same begin, pattern of like

1:09:12

little guys, all meet all our little guys,

1:09:14

are all our little guys are having

1:09:16

fun, the problem and now now everyone's

1:09:18

fucked, kind of thing. of thing. And at that

1:09:20

that point, it's quite hard to introduce

1:09:22

new melodies into a story that's

1:09:24

moving too quickly to house them. And so what

1:09:27

And so what you have to

1:09:29

do, and with the sound sound

1:09:31

of music, I think I it more than any other music.

1:09:33

than any relies heavily on

1:09:35

the heavily on the of reprises. song

1:09:37

the children sing. that bar are

1:09:39

my favorite things. things, twice, yeah. and

1:09:41

in different tonal spaces. spaces. Yes, yes. It's

1:09:43

incredibly smart. And as you say, And

1:09:45

as it helps it it in the

1:09:47

public consciousness it you get the

1:09:49

songs in various because you get the

1:09:51

songs in And so they go deeper

1:09:54

under your skin. deeper And of

1:09:56

course you get and of as a

1:09:58

moment get Edelweiss as a moment of like... possible

1:10:00

love and then you get aid of ice as a

1:10:03

gesture towards defiance. Yes, yes and you have and you

1:10:05

also have the kind of the kids singing what are

1:10:07

they saying the Hills are alive the sound of music

1:10:09

after Maria has left and it's like this mournful dirge

1:10:11

and it's this great way of being like yes the

1:10:13

film subject has radically changed. but the spirit of the

1:10:15

film remains the same. And these characters who were so

1:10:18

happy in one scene, it's quite a cheap trick, but

1:10:20

it's really effective. It is, it's a cheap trick, but

1:10:22

one that you can do, if you can put it

1:10:24

off, it's a cheap trick in the way that like,

1:10:26

rhyming couplets are a cheap trick. It's a cheap trick

1:10:28

in the way that like, rhyming couplets are a cheap

1:10:30

trick, it's a cheap trick, and the dirt in chapter

1:10:33

12. It's like, I remember, I remember, I remember, I

1:10:35

remember, that was what I didn't know this scarf, that

1:10:37

was what I didn't know this book at all, this

1:10:39

book at all, this book at all, this book at

1:10:41

all, and now I know, and now I know, and

1:10:43

now I know, and now I know, and now I

1:10:46

know, and now I know, and now I know, I

1:10:48

know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I

1:10:50

know, I know, I know, I know This

1:10:54

virtue is cheap. It is

1:10:56

just structurally and imaginatively it's

1:10:58

a spectacular scene. Even though

1:11:00

everyone knows that's not what

1:11:02

happened. In fact, the von

1:11:05

Traps left completely legally. By

1:11:07

train. By train, first to

1:11:09

Europe and then to America.

1:11:11

And it was not particularly

1:11:13

difficult or complicated for them

1:11:15

to do so. Yes. So

1:11:18

at this point we have entered

1:11:20

the realms of mad fantasy. This

1:11:22

is not what protest looks like.

1:11:24

This is not what, you know,

1:11:26

escape looks like. But it is

1:11:28

for what it is, perfect. It

1:11:30

is so perfect. And as a

1:11:32

kid, it just... just hammered itself

1:11:34

into my heart where the kids

1:11:36

are singing and it's in a

1:11:38

cold dark amphitheatre. Not in a

1:11:40

normal theatre. And of course, which

1:11:42

we skipped over, they have been

1:11:44

forced there because they had tried

1:11:46

to escape. They're wearing their travelling

1:11:48

clothes. And they're pushing the car.

1:11:50

and they're caught by the Nazis

1:11:52

and yes because their butler has

1:11:54

betrayed them which you just get

1:11:56

him one little shot of him

1:11:58

in the window watching yes everyone

1:12:01

does it's technically the butler doesn't

1:12:03

like them and we see him

1:12:05

looking at them once before and

1:12:07

then we see him in the

1:12:09

window That's a new color I've

1:12:11

never seen this film. Oh yeah,

1:12:13

yeah, yeah, yeah, no, you're probably

1:12:15

right, yeah, yeah, I'm sure you

1:12:17

are. God, ooh, don't like that.

1:12:19

So the Nazis come and they

1:12:21

say, fix Captain Bontrap's car for

1:12:23

him so that it will start.

1:12:25

That moment where they started instantly

1:12:27

is where like... So up till

1:12:29

now, all of your concerns about

1:12:31

this movie have been about interpersonal

1:12:33

stuff. And suddenly, the moment that

1:12:35

car starts, perfectly fine, it's when

1:12:37

these adrenaline stakes begin. And I

1:12:39

don't, I can't think of any

1:12:41

other musical that does this, that

1:12:43

manages to have this thriller aspect

1:12:45

going for the final 45 minutes.

1:12:47

And in no way has the

1:12:49

film sort of gestured towards this

1:12:51

is what it's going to do.

1:12:53

Yes. But it's so, it's so,

1:12:55

especially as a young person, but

1:12:57

even as an adult. It's remarkable

1:12:59

how that car starts and your

1:13:01

heart just roars with it. It's

1:13:03

frightening. And then as you say,

1:13:05

we get to this crazy amphitheatre.

1:13:07

It's like a weird crypt. Like

1:13:09

that is just kind of incredible.

1:13:11

The way that we have been

1:13:13

sort of on Max's side for

1:13:15

so much of this movie of

1:13:17

being like, let the kids sing.

1:13:19

They'll have fun. And the way

1:13:21

they have set dress, that entire,

1:13:23

it's really remarkable. It's a space

1:13:25

unlike any other space in the

1:13:27

movie or in any movie. of

1:13:29

like it feels like a church

1:13:31

with the roof blown off like

1:13:33

it feels like a ruin or

1:13:35

something why is it so fucked

1:13:37

up? Why is this why they're

1:13:39

having their concert why is it

1:13:41

in hell but it's perfect and

1:13:43

it's perfect that it's suddenly so

1:13:45

dark and it was realistically imagine

1:13:47

that we were writing this we

1:13:49

would be like well I guess

1:13:51

it has to be in a

1:13:53

theater as though it would be

1:13:55

you know with sumptuous wings and

1:13:57

everyone in their outfits and it's

1:13:59

a different, infinitely worse

1:14:01

film. Yeah. But they managed to find

1:14:03

this, as you say, a Roman ruin.

1:14:05

Yeah, it's fucking her anonymous boss theater.

1:14:07

Like, it's so, and like, and I

1:14:10

just can't believe how they did that.

1:14:12

I've like, you, again, we start the

1:14:14

car, the adrenaline is going, our heart

1:14:16

is pumping, and then like, they're forced

1:14:18

to sing for the, in this fucked

1:14:20

up space, that is just scary. And

1:14:22

the children, each one leaves. And we

1:14:24

know that as they're leaving, they are

1:14:26

leaving. They are smuggling themselves away. And

1:14:28

then just the two of them sing.

1:14:30

Yeah. Oh God. And it also puts

1:14:32

me in mind of like, you know,

1:14:34

Casablanca of that moment of the most,

1:14:36

is it the, some kind of French

1:14:38

song? That like, do you know the

1:14:40

story at all? I do. I've seen

1:14:42

it. I love it. I've forgotten what

1:14:45

they sing. I can't remember what the

1:14:47

thinking of it. It is a French

1:14:49

song, but it is essentially a kind

1:14:51

of a defiant song of Nazis get

1:14:53

the fuck out kind of thing happening

1:14:55

in Ricksbar and Casablanca, but also the

1:14:57

reality of that shot is that most

1:14:59

of the people on that set were

1:15:01

themselves war refugees. And so you pan

1:15:03

to, oh, I'm just getting upset because

1:15:05

I know it makes my dad cry

1:15:07

and I'm thinking about my dad. And

1:15:09

you just pan to all these faces

1:15:11

of real tears of like people who,

1:15:13

like this is still shot during the

1:15:15

war, like people who can't go home,

1:15:18

they still can't go home. And like,

1:15:20

I don't know, music and defiance, it's

1:15:22

just. It's too much for me. It's

1:15:24

why we have it. Like, it is

1:15:26

one of the reasons we invented it.

1:15:28

Yes. It's not, it's not like we

1:15:30

took it and used it for something

1:15:32

it wasn't meant for. It's why it

1:15:34

exists. It's why it exists and now

1:15:36

why it all is being warehoused under

1:15:38

techno feudalism that is Spotify where you

1:15:40

were listening to this podcast. Oh

1:15:45

no! Anyway, they flee, they

1:15:47

go to the convent, the

1:15:49

nuns. Come on, take me

1:15:51

through it. So, this I

1:15:53

think is one of the

1:15:55

things that for children, if

1:15:57

you've seen it young, never

1:15:59

ever forget it. They leave.

1:16:01

The announcement start of the

1:16:03

winners and of course they've

1:16:05

come first so we get

1:16:07

third place. Yes. Second place.

1:16:09

And that woman was bowing

1:16:11

all the time. And it's

1:16:13

this moment of like gorgeous,

1:16:15

gorgeous width in this crazy

1:16:17

moment. Yeah. And in the

1:16:19

meantime they are heading towards

1:16:22

the nunnery to try to

1:16:24

be hidden. and so that

1:16:26

they can maybe take a

1:16:28

car but the cars won't

1:16:30

work. Yes. And then back

1:16:32

on the stage it says

1:16:34

the family von Trapp and

1:16:36

they don't come out and

1:16:38

then someone just runs onto

1:16:40

the stage and says, they're

1:16:42

gone! In an American accent.

1:16:44

It's fine. It's fine. And

1:16:46

then we have them hiding,

1:16:48

the Reverend Mother hides them

1:16:50

in the crypt of the

1:16:52

nunnery. Another scary space. Another

1:16:54

scary space that was in

1:16:56

no way shown to us

1:16:58

beforehand. Exactly, and we've had

1:17:01

a whole movie of blue

1:17:03

skies and green mountains and

1:17:05

grand houses and now where

1:17:07

like the spaces keep getting

1:17:09

darker and smaller. and they

1:17:11

hide behind a locked railings

1:17:13

behind gravestones and Little Grattle

1:17:15

says, would it help to

1:17:17

think about our favourite things?

1:17:19

And even it's like a

1:17:21

seven-year-old. I was like, shut

1:17:23

off. Don't be ridiculous, no

1:17:25

critical. And they wait, and

1:17:27

then flashlights, the flashlights come.

1:17:29

It is, it is an

1:17:31

extraordinary, it just went very,

1:17:33

very simple, and it is

1:17:35

perfect. And then Ralph comes

1:17:38

and Lisa'll gossps. I guess.

1:17:40

Me gas. And he sees

1:17:42

them as they're starting to

1:17:44

leave. He pretends to leave.

1:17:46

They start to run. He

1:17:48

comes back. And this extraordinary

1:17:50

piece of script writing that

1:17:52

he's about to betray them.

1:17:54

And Captain Vondrap walks towards

1:17:56

him saying, come away. us

1:17:58

come and he's torn between

1:18:00

it and then he says

1:18:02

you'll never be one of

1:18:04

them and it's the wrong

1:18:06

thing to say it blows

1:18:08

his whistle and he screams

1:18:10

for them and off they

1:18:12

flee and then the best

1:18:15

moon in the film They're

1:18:17

about to leap into their cars to

1:18:20

chase them and the cars won't start.

1:18:22

Yes! And the cars won't start because

1:18:24

the two of the nuns and the

1:18:27

ones the one that loved Maria and

1:18:29

the one that was a real bitch

1:18:31

about Maria. They come when they confess

1:18:34

to the Reverend Mother and they say,

1:18:36

I have sinned Reverend Mother. I too

1:18:38

have sinned and they take from inside

1:18:41

their enormous wimples from their sort of

1:18:43

nun coats the car parts that they

1:18:45

took from cars. Bless. It's so incredible.

1:18:47

It is so perfect of like this

1:18:50

balance of like... real adrenaline

1:18:52

thriller and these comedy moments that

1:18:54

punctuated every time like we just

1:18:56

do not have film like this

1:18:58

anymore like you can come through

1:19:00

the cheese and the coyness and

1:19:02

the sincerity of the sound of

1:19:04

music but in terms of like

1:19:06

pacing story plot script you can't

1:19:08

you can't be fun with it

1:19:10

is perfect yeah and and then

1:19:12

of course you get that final

1:19:14

scene and they have the colors

1:19:16

are a perfect reprise of the

1:19:19

opening yeah same green and the

1:19:21

same blue and there they are

1:19:23

hiking towards freedom And it's so-

1:19:25

Which is impossible. Which is impossible.

1:19:27

That's towards Germany. It's not how

1:19:29

it would work. But, you know,

1:19:31

the idea that they're going, that

1:19:33

they're going to start something new,

1:19:35

that it's towards Switzerland and everything

1:19:37

it promises. And

1:19:39

it's just perfect. And this film,

1:19:42

I think you could come at

1:19:44

it politically. And I think you

1:19:46

could really come at it for

1:19:49

treacle. But I think you cannot

1:19:51

come at it for structure, for

1:19:53

screenwriting, or for the fact that

1:19:56

those songs are just breathtakingly good.

1:19:58

And that Christopher Plummer. he sings

1:20:00

most of them himself. Does he?

1:20:03

I think so, not all of

1:20:05

them. Some of them have been

1:20:07

dubbed. Some of them are dubbed.

1:20:10

I think anything that's challenging. But

1:20:12

Julie Andrews sings it all. Yeah.

1:20:14

And her voice has a kind

1:20:17

of sweetness, a kind of, you

1:20:19

know, angeline clarity. It's staggering. It's

1:20:21

perfect. You know, it was just

1:20:24

this moment where this girl who

1:20:26

had this talent was just captured

1:20:28

like that so quickly. And you

1:20:31

know, her voice didn't last forever.

1:20:33

She can't sing now. Of course

1:20:35

she can't. She's 107 years old.

1:20:38

But it was a real miracle.

1:20:40

And they caught it on film

1:20:42

forever. Oh! I

1:20:44

love films! I love

1:20:47

it! It is a

1:20:49

miracle! She was a

1:20:51

miracle! At that moment,

1:20:53

just that voice, that

1:20:55

capacity, that charisma. Thank

1:21:02

you so much for this. I

1:21:04

don't want to be presumptuous. I

1:21:07

think this might be the definitive

1:21:09

podcast on the side of the

1:21:11

music. I don't think anyone should

1:21:14

try out. I think this might

1:21:16

be the best episode ever. I

1:21:19

feel sure that I bet you somewhere

1:21:21

that there is a whole podcast series

1:21:24

just about the sound of music and

1:21:26

I'm sure it's brilliant. Yeah, interviewing all

1:21:28

the kids and all. Oh my god,

1:21:30

there is, there's a fabulous scene much

1:21:33

later when a young Julie Andrews sings

1:21:35

with the real Maria von Trapp who

1:21:37

is also in the movie, at one

1:21:39

point when the kids are excycling, she's

1:21:41

one of the two. Ospian and present

1:21:44

woman watching them go by. She has

1:21:46

this one second flash of a cameo.

1:21:48

And then there's this wonderful moment where

1:21:50

they do a TV show and the

1:21:53

real Maria von Trapp teaches Maria, Julie

1:21:55

Andrews, how to yodel. And Maria von

1:21:57

Trapp's voice is beautiful, but it's.

1:21:59

deeper, sort more sort

1:22:01

of classic, in the

1:22:04

classic And Julie Andrew sings with her,

1:22:06

and it's with her and it's

1:22:08

just this of of peon

1:22:10

of clarity, it's People should look People

1:22:12

should look it up. great. Oh,

1:22:14

I I do want to

1:22:16

see it. it. Oh God bless the Vontraps,

1:22:18

God God bless Maria, God

1:22:21

bless Julie Julie Andrews. Who else? Oh

1:22:23

yes, God bless Catherine Catherine Randall. You

1:22:25

have a million books, which one million books,

1:22:27

which one of them would

1:22:29

you like to promote right

1:22:31

now? right now? I have

1:22:33

have a fantasy book for fantasy

1:22:35

book nine plus called Impossible Creatures. It's one

1:22:37

of of a series. It's

1:22:39

the first of a series.

1:22:41

It's out in paperback and available now.

1:22:43

And now. you also if

1:22:45

you enjoy John Dunn chat, she's she's

1:22:47

got a whole big award-winning

1:22:49

book about John Dunn called Super

1:22:52

Infinite. And my favorite of your

1:22:54

your book is The which is Mole,

1:22:56

which is a of essays about

1:22:58

essays that are slowly going

1:23:00

extinct. slowly going I yeah, I

1:23:02

I love it so much. I've taken to calling

1:23:04

you the Steve Irwin of our generation. our

1:23:06

generation. much what I aspire to. an an

1:23:08

important thing about Steve Irwin is is he

1:23:10

wanted to teach people to love crocodiles so

1:23:12

so would care about what was happening to

1:23:14

them. I want to teach people to

1:23:16

love spiders. love Yeah. This is very much

1:23:18

my plan. plan. And moles and and things. and I

1:23:20

just think you're incredible. Thank you so much

1:23:22

for Thank you much much for having me. you

1:23:24

so much for having me. Bye. Bye. You

1:23:44

know, as a busy of ways there are

1:23:46

lots of ways you can help yourself

1:23:48

fall asleep. stare blankly at the ceiling and replay at

1:23:50

the ceiling and replay every conversation you've

1:23:52

ever had. Count sheep, have a debate

1:23:54

with your pillow, give up caffeine, try

1:23:56

acupuncture, buy a weighted a weighted blanket that will

1:23:58

make you sweat profusely. Or you

1:24:00

could you could try some

1:24:03

milk, which has nutrients

1:24:05

that support healthy sleep. sleep. Visit

1:24:07

gonna need.com for more info and

1:24:09

everyone's sake, please

1:24:11

don't give up caffeine. caffeine.