0:05

Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage,

0:07

the podcast where we communicate largely

0:10

via finger clicks. My name is

0:12

Caroline and my grandpa is a

0:14

comedy and my grandma pushes tea.

0:17

And joining me is the girl

0:19

who always feels pretty. It's Jensen

0:21

McRae. Thank you for that introduction.

0:23

Thank you so much for coming

0:25

on and for, and this is

0:27

very embarrassing for a pop culture

0:29

broadcaster introducing me to this film.

0:31

Well, I'm happy to be anyone's

0:34

introduction to it. It was like,

0:36

it dominated my childhood in a

0:38

way that I look back and I don't

0:40

really understand why. Yeah, I mean, we're

0:42

about to get to the bottom of

0:44

why. So when I, we were communicated

0:46

over DM and Instagram and I'm just,

0:48

I just think you're so fabulously talented

0:50

and I love your music and when

0:52

you wanted to come on the show,

0:54

I was so happy. to have you

0:56

and then you came with West Side

0:58

story immediately like it was an immediate

1:00

text back and I yeah would love

1:03

to know why exactly. I mean, I know that

1:05

when I was a kid, like, your parents are always showing

1:07

you movies that they loved when they were younger. Like, I

1:09

remember my mom showed me Dirty Dancing, that was like her

1:11

favorite movie, and I just remember finding you, like, incolorably long.

1:13

I wish I knew, like, the runtime of that film, because

1:15

I'm sure it's a normal length of that film, but as a

1:17

normal length of the movie. But as a child, I felt it

1:19

was so long, it's a normal, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:21

the runtime of the runtime of that film, like, like, like, like,

1:23

like, the runtime of the runtime of that film, like, like, like,

1:25

like, like, like, like, like, like, the runtime of the runtime of

1:28

that film, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:30

like, like, the runtime of, like, like, like, the runtime of, like,

1:32

like, like Every single day for like I think

1:34

all of fourth grade and like we went

1:36

on a family trip to Jamaica and This was

1:38

in the mid-2000s when you had to have

1:40

a DVD player like there weren't like iPads or

1:42

any like you didn't there was no other way to

1:44

watch a movie on it. Yeah So we all brought

1:47

big TV players and That makes me feel

1:49

so old and I think the only DVD

1:51

I brought on that trip was the Westside

1:53

story movie and I watched it like whenever

1:55

there was downtime like that was my entertainment

1:57

was watching that was my entertainment was

1:59

Like, so what if you could, I

2:02

mean, I'm sure, because you've had

2:04

this like lifelong relationship with this

2:06

thing, I'm sure it's changed over

2:08

time. Like, can you, like, I

2:10

can see why a young, like a young kid

2:12

would see it. And also, here's songs

2:14

like, like, I feel pretty or America.

2:17

And like, there's a sort of a,

2:19

there's a playground fun to it and

2:21

the color and the dress and the

2:24

dress and all that. Was that, like,

2:26

like, is what. Got you the

2:28

same thing as what kept you I

2:30

think so I mean, I think I think everything that

2:32

you just said is spot on. I did musical theater

2:34

as a child. And now, I'm not quite as into

2:37

it. I don't just love every musical. There's a few

2:39

musicals that I think are great, West Side Story, obviously

2:41

being chief among them. And then other ones, I'm like,

2:43

being chief among them. And then other ones, I'm like,

2:45

I can't, I don't want to sit through musicals that

2:47

I think are great. West Side story, obviously being chief

2:49

among them. And then other ones, I'm like, I'm like,

2:51

I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

2:54

I'm like, I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I did

2:56

musicalside, I'm, I'm, I did, I did, I did, I

2:58

did, I did, I did, I did, I did,

3:00

I did, I did, I did, I did, I

3:02

did, I did, I did, I did Nita's dress,

3:04

like I love the dress that she wears in

3:06

that song. And I think another big part of

3:08

it was like, I mean, so I'm biracial, my

3:10

mom is white, my dad is black, and growing

3:13

up in the 2000s, like. There was just starting

3:15

to be a little bit of representation, like

3:17

in the mainstream media for that. And like,

3:19

one thing my mom did when I was

3:21

a kid is she would cut out pictures

3:23

of biracial celebrities from magazines and like put

3:26

them in a folder for me and be

3:28

like, look, look, look, look at all these

3:30

people who were like you. And it was

3:32

like. My parents desperately trying to show

3:34

me like myself being mirrored back to me.

3:37

And the thing that I've found with a

3:39

lot of non-white kids is like you kind

3:41

of take it where you can get it.

3:43

And so even if there's someone who's not

3:46

your ethnicity, if they're not white, you just

3:48

latch on as that and you claim it

3:50

as your own. And so I think like,

3:52

I mean, a lot of the people

3:54

in the movie are straight up wearing

3:57

brown face. And they're also like 35

3:59

blank 16. And I think that

4:01

I probably gravitated towards

4:03

Rita Moreno as like

4:05

an icon of representation, even though I'm

4:07

not Puerto Rican, I was like, yes,

4:10

I'll take it. And so I think

4:12

like a story about like a

4:14

quote unquote interracial relationship, even

4:17

though obviously Natalie Wood is

4:19

also just white, was something

4:21

that resonated with me and

4:23

like something that I knew would be

4:25

of interest to me down the line. Obviously

4:28

the best character in the film. She's every

4:30

I mean she did she win an Oscar

4:32

for it I think she might have won

4:34

an Oscar for it I mean she's sensational

4:36

they also made her do brown face because

4:38

she wasn't like dark enough for their like

4:40

which is oh there's a lot wrong with

4:43

this movie but I don't care like it

4:45

was it was representative of a time yeah

4:47

Rita Moreno's the highlight for me of course

4:49

and it was it's so funny because as

4:51

you said um I think you hit on

4:53

something very true a minute ago when you

4:55

said that like when your mom showed you

4:58

dirty dancing and it just felt long and

5:00

it made me think while I was watching

5:02

this I was like well I grew up

5:04

in a house that like everyone loved musicals

5:06

and what and classic you know movie musicals

5:09

why didn't I grow up with West Side

5:11

story and then it made me think that

5:13

unless your family are like capital S show

5:15

people actually any one household can only probably

5:17

metabolize about one or two

5:20

musicals at a time because they're

5:22

all incredibly long. So we were a

5:24

sound of music in Les Miserabla household

5:26

and that was that was the number

5:28

of musicals we could really ingest. Well

5:31

I think it was kept a lot.

5:33

I think about that a lot with like regards to

5:35

with music as well because like obviously as a musician

5:37

like I'm always getting asked like what did you grow

5:39

up listening to and like who were your influences and

5:41

stuff and I'll say you know my big my usual

5:44

people it's like Carol King Stevie Wonder James Taylor Alicia

5:46

Keys like those like my big four and people I'll

5:48

encounter people who grew up with like the Beatles for

5:50

example and the Rolling Stones and I didn't like I

5:52

didn't know their music until I went to college really

5:55

because I went to music school and I had to

5:57

music school and I just studied to study it just

5:59

study it. But to your point, like

6:01

there's only so much classic music that

6:03

you can. Take as a family, but

6:06

especially as a child like there's only

6:08

so much you can retain and like

6:10

you're really Beholding to whatever your parents

6:12

taste is so like in your case

6:14

your parents like these are the best

6:16

musicals But you're gonna know the sound

6:19

of music and layman is and it's

6:21

like to other people's like how there's

6:23

such a big gap in your education

6:25

It's like we it's impossible to cover

6:27

all of pop culture in the first

6:29

like 10 years of your life. Every

6:31

pre digital media generation, sort of like

6:34

post-vinyl, pre-digital, kind of, that entire analog

6:36

generation of owning culture in your house,

6:38

but only a finite amount of it,

6:40

and how like every single person, their

6:42

personality is made up of like the

6:44

three VHS and the 10 DVDs and

6:47

the whatever. And so like, if my

6:49

entire character was just boiled down to

6:51

three things, it would probably be Billy

6:53

Joel, the Muppets Christmas Carol and like

6:55

little women on VHS on VHS. Like,

6:57

that's kind of like, if I just

6:59

was like melted down, it would just

7:02

be those three things, you know? And

7:04

everybody has the same. And like, everybody

7:06

is like, it's like a very specific

7:08

thumbprint that everyone has that's incredibly specific

7:10

to them, just based on this like

7:12

flotsam and jetsam of whatever the fuck

7:15

was in their house, you know? Yeah.

7:17

I love that as an intellectual exercise,

7:19

like to ask people, like, what are

7:21

the, what are the weird, what are

7:23

the VHS tapes that like, like, like,

7:25

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

7:28

I mean I know for me one

7:30

of them would definitely be the Looney

7:32

Tunes, I mean specifically the Looney Tunes

7:34

cartoon Duckamuck, but like I don't remember

7:36

what the name of that VHS tape

7:38

was, but like a lot of Looney

7:40

Tunes cartoons were critical to my development

7:43

and I guess Westside stories and other

7:45

one of them, but I want to

7:47

know, now I want to know everybody's,

7:49

oh and Brandy Cinderella, it's an iconic

7:51

film, I... broke my DVD and my

7:53

VHS tape of both of those. I

7:56

had it on VHS and DVD and

7:58

they both broke from overuse. It's so

8:00

good. I think it's like the highest

8:02

budget straight to VHS movie ever. It's

8:04

some kind of like crazy record, but

8:06

back to West Side story. Of course.

8:08

So again, my first time like ever

8:11

seeing this thing and I really want

8:13

to work through it chronologically, but there

8:15

was something that like I enjoyed it

8:17

so much just like. And it was

8:19

and that really I watched a little

8:21

documentary this afternoon about it where you

8:24

know the documentaries were it just like

8:26

loads of talking heads of famous people

8:28

saying how how good it is and

8:30

yeah and and there was something that

8:32

like um Weirdly, Buryshnikov said when he

8:34

was being interviewed about it, Buryshnikov or

8:37

as he's known, let's do this podcast,

8:39

the Russian from Sex in the City.

8:41

And he said, you know, I grew

8:43

up on propaganda cartoons of like big

8:45

fat Americans with like money falling out

8:47

of their pockets like eating. And like

8:49

I was raised to think of America

8:52

as this kind of artless place. And

8:54

then he was like, well, when I

8:56

watched this movie and it was such

8:58

a quintessentially a... American piece of art.

9:00

Like it's Coca-Cola and it's modern jazz

9:02

and it's Cuban rhythms and it's all

9:05

these things and it's these colors and

9:07

it's this like it really More than

9:09

any one scene, the whole piece of

9:11

it sent a fucking shiver down my

9:13

spine just that it is so, yes,

9:15

the movie musical and it's like big

9:17

love and yearning and stuff, but just

9:20

the artistry at work in this thing

9:22

from the opening fucking frame is unbelievable

9:24

when you're getting these like aerial shots

9:26

of New York. And I think you

9:28

get these clicks and everything, which obviously

9:30

is an iconic part of the musical.

9:33

And I was instantly shut out of

9:35

my thing of like, oh, this is

9:37

like a classic movie musical that I'm

9:39

watching that will take place on a

9:41

series of sound stages, and I was

9:43

immediately dunked in. this thing of like

9:46

you are watching a seminal piece of

9:48

American art. Like how like as I

9:50

have that many Americans on the podcast

9:52

like tell me tell me tell me

9:54

your response to this as like an

9:56

American piece of art particularly in the

9:58

moment that it is to be American

10:01

right now. I mean to me it

10:03

feels like obviously it's like both the

10:05

best and worst of like what it

10:07

is to be American because like it's

10:09

I mean the whole film is about

10:11

racial tension and like that's something that

10:14

I mean, I think what's interesting is,

10:16

like, obviously, my primary exposure to it

10:18

was as a child, and I was

10:20

a child of the 2000s. I was

10:22

a child, initially, like, I guess, of

10:24

the Bush administration, but then mostly of

10:26

the two Obama administrations, like, at least

10:29

in my conscious memory. And to me,

10:31

watching a film about racial tension felt

10:33

very antiquated, like, it felt very, like,

10:35

old time, because, well, we have a

10:37

black president, now, now we fixed that.

10:39

And now, and, like, like, like, like,

10:42

watching it now, like I have watched

10:44

it obviously since, and like it feels

10:46

so much more poignant because it feels

10:48

it doesn't feel as antiquated anymore. It

10:50

does feel like right now, like to

10:52

be an American is to coexist with

10:55

like the the trauma and the pain

10:57

of the divisiveness that exists and also

10:59

to still be making art and still

11:01

be falling in love, like I don't

11:03

want to like compare this time period

11:05

to any other time period because I

11:07

do believe that like my ancestors made

11:10

so much more with so much less.

11:12

But this is like... not a good

11:14

time to be American at all. Like

11:16

it's a very very difficult time to

11:18

be an American, especially if you're not

11:20

a straight cisgender white man. It's a

11:23

very bad time to be an American.

11:25

And we're still, like, there's still happy

11:27

moments. And I think that that's like

11:29

what. this movie feels like to me

11:31

is like all of the amazing things

11:33

that happen when the world is hostile

11:35

to you and all of the beauty

11:38

that you can find in the world

11:40

one of this hostile to you and

11:42

like especially like in like with I

11:44

feel pretty like they're they have to

11:46

work in that dress shop just to

11:48

like barely make ends meet like that's

11:51

like they're barely surviving they're scraping by

11:53

in that really really tiny apartment in

11:55

New York and yet Maria has fallen

11:57

in love with Tony and she's dancing

11:59

around and pretending to be a bride

12:01

and like that to me is like

12:03

representative of like what girlhood is is

12:06

like no matter how horrible the world

12:08

is being to you like you're still

12:10

probably going to find a way to

12:12

like play dress up with your friends

12:14

and like I think that like the

12:16

the color I mean what people talk

12:19

about this lot how like we don't

12:21

do technical or anymore and I don't

12:23

know if wasn't very technically is technical

12:25

but regardless the coloring in the film

12:27

is like its own character and like

12:29

just how bright it is and how

12:32

evocative it is and how like immersive

12:34

it is like you really feel like

12:36

you're it's so bright and it's so

12:38

purposeful that you really feel like you're

12:40

there and so I feel like it's

12:42

it really does remind me of of

12:44

like what it means to force yourself

12:47

to find joy and beauty and love

12:49

in a place that it would be

12:51

really easy not to. Like obviously, Bernardo

12:53

was the voice of like, everything sucks

12:55

here, why are you happy? Like, why

12:57

should we even be here? And Anita

13:00

is the voice of like, I don't

13:02

care how much it sucks. I'd rather

13:04

have it suck here than have to

13:06

deal with it sucking somewhere else. I

13:08

love that. It's so crazy to me

13:10

when I, I mean, generally we would

13:12

do some kind of a plot summary,

13:15

but I feel like if you don't,

13:17

like, like, I who had never seen

13:19

West Side, West Side story, you know,

13:21

about these two gangs in lower Manhattan.

13:23

And that, but like, obviously I'm so

13:25

aware of America as a song, or

13:28

it's like, it's like, it's like, what's

13:30

the full title of the song, is

13:32

it? Is it called I Want to

13:34

be an American? Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe,

13:36

I don't know. Well, we all know

13:38

what I'm talking about, because it's like

13:41

such a breakout, if you know one

13:43

song from this musical, you'll probably know

13:45

that, and there's something kind of... I've

13:47

always kind of done it in my

13:49

head as like almost a joke song

13:51

because it's so loud and so big

13:53

and so just like repetitive that like

13:56

it just goes around in your head

13:58

and I had never listened to the

14:00

lyrics and I'd never understood the context

14:02

for its place in the story but

14:04

it comp- like transfixed me when it

14:06

was on. It's quite early in the

14:09

movie, so it's like we have this

14:11

whole setup of sharks versus jets and

14:13

the sharks are made up of the

14:15

Puerto Rican population and the jets are

14:17

the kind of like mixed second generation

14:19

immigrant whites, sort of a diverse background

14:21

but white. And they have this sort

14:24

of, it's very, you know, it plays

14:26

like the opening of Romeo and Juliet,

14:28

where like you don't meet Romeo and

14:30

Juliet right away, you meet just like

14:32

some guys, just like having a fight.

14:34

Just like having a fight. Just some

14:37

guys have enough bite. And then, we

14:39

know we're introduced to sort of Tony

14:41

and like, Tony's not a jet anymore,

14:43

but when you're a jet, you're a

14:45

jet for life. And then we get

14:47

Maria and we find out that Maria

14:50

has kind of like just come to

14:52

the country. Her parents are there as

14:54

well, her brothers there and her brother

14:56

is like deeply protective over her and

14:58

has ideas of who she's going to

15:00

marry and what she's going to do.

15:02

And it's that like classic, like older

15:05

brother dynamic of like, I know how

15:07

terrible men are because I am terrible.

15:09

So I will protect you from men

15:11

like me. And then we, you know,

15:13

he kind of like chastises Maria and

15:15

like puts her in her place and

15:18

then like immediately goes up to the

15:20

roof to like just kind of like

15:22

mac on his girl. Yeah. And there's

15:24

this big hilarious dance fight between. Anita

15:26

and her friends and the women and

15:28

like all the men and the kind

15:30

of the fight is really about whether

15:33

as you said whether or not it's

15:35

good to be in America and the

15:37

women are just so filled with life

15:39

and energy and the men are so

15:41

cynical and you know I'm not American

15:43

but I am an immigrant in a

15:46

sense that like I live in a

15:48

country I wasn't born in and It

15:50

really took me into this very specific

15:52

thing you don't see elsewhere, which is

15:54

the way in which women and men

15:56

relate to the immigrant experience. First of

15:59

all, the way... in which like women

16:01

often went away from their

16:03

nuclear families are able to

16:06

experience more freedom and

16:08

like these women specifically

16:10

are like benefiting from

16:12

like the cultural revolution

16:14

happening in America at that

16:16

time and and all that and men

16:18

are romanticized their lives back

16:21

home more. in part because they're targeted

16:23

as criminals more in the place where

16:25

they ended up, you know? Like women

16:27

are targeted as labor and men are

16:30

targeted as criminals. And so it's like,

16:32

oh, of course they have these different

16:34

perspectives on what it's like to be

16:37

in America, you know? Well, it's fast.

16:39

I didn't consider that. And I think it's

16:41

so interesting to think about like how,

16:43

yeah, when women, the women in this

16:45

story like have left... Even though obviously the

16:48

culture of the United States is not particularly

16:50

progressive at this point, like they've left a

16:52

more, a culture that's more rooted in Machismo, and

16:54

they've come to a place where in theory,

16:56

they're starting to be a little bit of

16:58

a shift towards equality, I think women are

17:00

still a ways off from being able to have

17:02

credit cards in this timeline, but like they're

17:04

able to have their own income, they're able

17:06

to potentially live on their own. Whereas the men,

17:09

even if they're coming to America in

17:11

theory for more in theory for more

17:13

opportunity, cultural, they would have more cultural

17:15

currency in their hometown because they would

17:17

have more social control over the women.

17:19

And in the US, it seems at

17:22

least in this environment, it's harder for

17:24

them to exert social control over the

17:26

women. And also in their hometown, they're

17:28

considered the alphas of their society, whereas

17:30

here, they're considered subservient and deferent to

17:32

white men. And I hadn't considered that.

17:35

informing it. I mean, I guess, obviously,

17:37

again, because I watched it as

17:39

a child, but it's interesting to

17:41

think about that framing now, like

17:43

the women, they're not, they have

17:45

nothing to lose really coming to

17:47

America because at home, like, yeah,

17:49

they're, like, they're, yeah, they're, yeah,

17:51

they're, yeah, they're poor in both

17:53

places, they're, they're existing at

17:56

the whims of men in any way. So, yeah,

17:58

whereas for a man, it's like... Wait,

18:00

when I was home, like I was

18:02

the top dog, I was the guy,

18:04

and now suddenly I'm like second fiddle

18:06

to these like random white guys, like

18:08

that sucks. That sucks, and I feel

18:11

for everyone. Yeah, yeah. And crucially, I

18:13

like everyone. You know, they're all my

18:15

best friends in 1960s Manhattan. I just

18:17

loved it, man. Like, I'm really afraid

18:19

that, like, I know that people are

18:21

gonna be listening and be like. want

18:23

me to have a more informed take,

18:25

but I just like sat down and

18:28

watched this movie this afternoon and like

18:30

didn't get up and just like ordered

18:32

delive rue to my couch so I

18:34

could just not interrupt it. It's so

18:36

good. I mean, America's great. Maria is

18:38

probably my other, well, okay, Maria is

18:40

one of my favorite songs. I think

18:43

those are the three songs like if

18:45

I didn't have time for a full

18:47

rewatch. It was like I'm gonna watch

18:49

America, I'm gonna watch Maria, I'm gonna

18:51

watch a boy like. crazy. Like it

18:53

was actually a song that I ended

18:55

up studying a little bit in music

18:58

theory classes when I got to college

19:00

because in my, I had to take

19:02

classical theory, which was a nightmare, but

19:04

then I had to take top theory

19:06

and we had these exams where we

19:08

had to be able to identify intervals.

19:10

So like the, like there's, so the,

19:12

I don't know how much you know

19:15

about like music theory, but like the

19:17

distance between like. The difference between C

19:19

and D, like Doe and Ray, that's

19:21

called the second, that's like the closest

19:23

interval you can have, and then there

19:25

isn't between Doe and Me as a

19:27

third, between Doe and Saul as a

19:30

fifth, and the interval between, for the

19:32

notes in Maria, I'm trying to remember,

19:34

I think it's like a, it's like

19:36

a flat six or something, it's like

19:38

this, it's a, it's a weird. interval

19:40

that like when you're learning about like

19:42

all the different intervals in school like

19:45

they would give you an example of

19:47

like a pop culture sound like make

19:49

you think of it like here comes

19:51

the bride is like one interval and

19:53

whatever so you can remember it sounds

19:55

like and there was this interval which

19:57

I feel like it's like a either

20:00

a sixth or maybe some kind of

20:02

an accidental around it it's like the

20:04

Maria like that was the only example

20:06

they gave because like that's the one

20:08

that is just like such like on

20:10

a music theory level like that feels

20:12

great like it exemplifies how it's like

20:14

it's like a very harsh interval I

20:17

think some people call like the devil's

20:19

interval but it softens up because Maria

20:21

like slides up to where it wants

20:23

to resolve but it always lands on

20:25

that that sharp uncomfortable note first and

20:27

like that is just like on a

20:29

music theory level like that feels great

20:32

like it exemplifies how it feels like

20:34

be falling in love because it's very

20:36

uneasy it's uncomfortable It's like alarming and

20:38

you're like this feels like I have

20:40

a stomach ache and my heart is

20:42

racing and I don't feel good But

20:44

it does like the the feeling bad

20:47

feels good and like just it's just

20:49

a genius interval choice in order to

20:51

To show that on a musical level

20:53

And then obviously the rest of it

20:55

is also really really beautiful and like

20:57

it makes you want to be named

20:59

Maria. Let's say that song ferment to

21:02

sing, like it was like a compilation

21:04

of a bunch of different Broadway tonies

21:06

singing Maria and it's just like... When

21:08

you get to Broadway, man, like those

21:10

guys can sing Maria. Like I saw,

21:12

I've seen, I was so obsessed with

21:14

the musical as a child that like

21:16

when I was for my ninth birthday,

21:19

I think my mom took me to

21:21

see a production of it at a

21:23

local community college because that was the

21:25

only place she could find tickets. And

21:27

like I was a place putting it

21:29

on. And I was a place putting

21:31

it on. And I thought I was

21:34

going to go see it. is incredible.

21:36

And then I also, I ended up

21:38

singing it on Broadway much later and

21:40

that was obviously amazing. And I saw

21:42

it, I think I wanted to go

21:44

see it at my college and I

21:46

think I left in the middle if

21:49

I'm being totally honest. It wasn't really

21:51

giving. But, but the, but when you

21:53

watch a compilation of Broadway Tony singing

21:55

it, you're like, wow, like this is

21:57

a demanding song and if you really

21:59

nail it, it's, I mean, you're just

22:01

transfixed. You're like, you're like, like, like,

22:03

I can't take my eyes, I can't

22:06

take my eyes, I can't take my

22:08

eyes off of this, So many of

22:10

the songs on that show are really

22:12

hard to sing though, which is, I

22:14

mean, as a person who's like, you

22:16

know, I used to do musical theater,

22:18

I'm a singer now, I would potentially

22:21

go back to musical theater if the

22:23

opportunity presented itself. Like, it's kind of

22:25

terrifying to think about singing a song

22:27

from a show like that, because all

22:29

those songs are really hard to sing,

22:31

because you're so right in what you

22:33

just said about like... the slight nausea

22:36

of it, the, the, the, the, it's

22:38

like heavenly, but it's also sicky, sicky

22:40

kind of thing. And, and that sort

22:42

of thing of like, narratively, it feels

22:44

like the, um, the doom is kind

22:46

of like already baked into the elation,

22:48

you know? Yeah, yeah. When I like

22:51

that is, yeah. Yeah, it's a really,

22:53

it's a really, really special. choice and

22:55

like I haven't sat with enough musicals

22:57

in the way that I've sat with

22:59

this to know like if there's similarly

23:01

purposeful choices in other shows but I

23:03

just know that like Maria is like

23:05

you know even though America is probably

23:08

my favorite song and the one that

23:10

I've like gone back to the most

23:12

like Maria is the most emblematic of

23:14

the show like Maria I feel like

23:16

is is the show like that the

23:18

the juxtaposition of the doom and the

23:20

dread and the love and the light

23:23

And like, just the youthfulness of it,

23:25

because like this, the show, practically, like

23:27

it couldn't be about people who are

23:29

40. Like, if you, like, it just

23:31

wouldn't work, like, you know, the actors

23:33

are 40. Like, it has to be

23:35

about young people, because they have to

23:38

be able, like, the, I mean, I'm

23:40

27, and like, I even feel now

23:42

that, like, there are certain things I'm

23:44

never going to feel again. Like, like,

23:46

there's certain types of feelings that I

23:48

think there are certain types of feelings

23:50

that I think that I think are

23:53

certain types of feelings that I think

23:55

are, that I think are for, that

23:57

I think are for, that I think

23:59

are for, that I think are for,

24:01

that I think are for, that I

24:03

think are for, They're not even that

24:05

distant in my past, but I think

24:07

it's like once you feel them the

24:10

first time, it's like, it's just never

24:12

gonna feel like that again. And like,

24:14

I look at Maria and Tony and

24:16

it's like, if Tony had lived, spoiler

24:18

alert, sorry guys. Tony had lived. And

24:20

in the case of Marie, like she's

24:22

never gonna feel that way again. She'll

24:25

fall in love again, Maria, after the

24:27

credits roll. Like she'll fall in love

24:29

again in her life. It's never gonna

24:31

feel like it felt with Tony again.

24:33

It can't, because it's impossible. And so

24:35

West Side story in addition to being

24:37

about like, about love and being about

24:40

death and being about racial division in

24:42

1960s, is about the feelings, about youth,

24:44

you can only feel when you're how

24:46

we're supposed to be like 17. You

24:48

get like one shot at it. I

24:50

really firmly believe that. And I think

24:52

even if you fall in love again

24:55

and it's beautiful and it's mystical and

24:57

it's amazing, it never quite feels like

24:59

that. Yeah, it's a little bit like

25:01

chicken pox where like, you wanna hope

25:03

you get it young because the older

25:05

you are when it happens for the

25:07

first time, but likelier it is to

25:09

be deadly. Like I had mine when

25:12

I was 24. I almost went to

25:14

the hospital. I truly almost went to

25:16

the hospital. And so like, yeah, I

25:18

think if that had, yeah, it truly

25:20

is, you're lucky if you experience it,

25:22

you know, when you are 17, because

25:24

then you can get your young and

25:27

your springy and you can bounce back

25:29

faster, I think. Yeah, fuck, wow. You're

25:31

so like, the thing is that one

25:33

of the structural flaws of like Romeo

25:35

and Juliet is the fact that, and

25:37

like, Bazzlerman has had his way with

25:39

it and, and this obviously has a

25:42

take on it, is that, um... you

25:44

know it famously lives and dies in

25:46

a three-day time frame and and so

25:48

every person who takes up the mantle

25:50

of trying to like tell the story

25:52

of Roman Julia and it's such an

25:54

elastic myth you know we can pour

25:56

anything into it we can pour any

25:59

kind of conflict into it or love

26:01

story into it and it will make

26:03

sense and that's why it survives more

26:05

than any other play. But the thing

26:07

that everyone has to work their way

26:09

around is that these are... kids who

26:11

risk it all for an instant. in

26:14

connection, you know, they risk their families

26:16

and their lives and everything, you know,

26:18

their honor. And the way Baslerman represents

26:20

that is that beautiful moment with the

26:22

fish tank, but the way that Westside

26:24

story represents that, I actually prefer even

26:26

more. It's like that beautiful thing where

26:29

we have the dance scene. which is

26:31

gorgeous. I'm like, you never want it

26:33

to end. Like you like more more

26:35

dance battles, more sexy looks. Go on

26:37

forever. I don't got anywhere to be

26:39

like, do it always. But then, you

26:41

know, Maria and Tony see each other

26:44

and the world sort of blurs and

26:46

stops and they. And in a way

26:48

that I am only now just realizing

26:50

was referenced in the 2005 Pride and

26:52

Prejudice directed by Joe Wright, if you're

26:54

familiar with that scene where Darcy and

26:56

Lizzy are dancing and the rest of

26:58

the room kind of disappears and everything

27:01

slows down. It's so masterly done, but

27:03

it's clearly referencing West Side story. And

27:05

they kind of draw towards each other

27:07

and it's like... the colors don't necessarily

27:09

invert but everything gets darker and you

27:11

can see the outlines of other dancers

27:13

and they speak in this to each

27:16

other and it's kind of dialogue but

27:18

it's kind of almost dream speak it's

27:20

the way you talk in a dream

27:22

like they're kind of talking to each

27:24

other but they're kind of talking to

27:26

themselves and Maria says something like he

27:28

kind of half accuses her of joking

27:31

with him and then she says that

27:33

I don't know how to make jokes

27:35

like that yet. And there was something

27:37

about that line that like, we can

27:39

be upset at me. Well, it just

27:41

reminds you of like, just how young

27:43

they are. And like, I don't know

27:46

what the age difference is supposed to

27:48

be in West Side Story. Obviously, in

27:50

the original Romeo and Juliet, isn't Romeo's

27:52

19 and Juliet's 13? If I'm remembering

27:54

quickly? Just quieting like that, yeah. Yeah.

27:56

And also, is it... I know that

27:58

Shakespeare wrote an iambic pentameter, but isn't

28:00

it that like in the scene when

28:03

Romeo and Juliet and counter each other,

28:05

it's like their perfect Iams or something?

28:07

There's something like distinctive about like their

28:09

first meeting. It's been a long time

28:11

since I read that book. But there's

28:13

something about when they meet that like

28:15

the meter changes slightly or it becomes

28:18

more perfect in some way or they're

28:20

completing each other's sentences or something. There's

28:22

something about their meeting that's faded in

28:24

their dialogue. And so I'm not surprised

28:26

that it's then meant that it's faded

28:28

in their dialogue. And so I'm not

28:30

surprised that it's then met that it's

28:33

echoed in Westside story. But yeah, with

28:35

her saying I don't know how to

28:37

joke like, it's an adult, you're like,

28:39

like, oh, my heart. It's like all

28:41

the life that this girl hasn't lived.

28:43

Yeah, like it's, I just, again, go

28:45

back to the kind of the well-wornness

28:48

of the Romeo and Juliet stuff. It's

28:50

like, if they wanted to be lazy,

28:52

they could have been lazy because we

28:54

know all of this story already, but

28:56

instead they were like, no, every single...

28:58

fucking square inch of this is going

29:00

to tell the story as best as

29:02

we possibly can and the fullest we

29:05

possibly can from the colors to the

29:07

sets to the the way in which

29:09

like this kind of I mean I

29:11

you obviously have studied musical theater so

29:13

you will know much more than me

29:15

but the way this kind of kind

29:17

of made a new frontier for dance

29:20

as a storytelling methodology. I love I

29:22

mean the dancing in this movie is

29:24

so Great. And like again, another thing

29:26

that I would be terrified to do

29:28

if I ever tried to do musical

29:30

theater again, like I cannot dance at

29:32

all. But yeah, the dancing, that dance

29:35

scene, I similarly, like every time I

29:37

watch, I'm like, this should just be

29:39

the whole movie. Also, like, we're 19

29:41

months of this. Also, like, separate, unrelated.

29:43

But like, I just think about Maria's

29:45

dress in the dance scene, like that

29:47

I wanted to, I wanted to dress

29:49

like that. would war is in a

29:52

museum somewhere. It's it's just everything. Oh

29:54

that whole that made me really upset

29:56

too. I'm not here at the moment

29:58

so everything's making me upset. I'm happy

30:00

too. I'm rocking a hefty day two

30:02

over here. I have also a day

30:04

too. Oh twins! That's nice! That's beautiful.

30:07

That was fate. We had to record

30:09

today. We had to. We had to.

30:11

The whole thing when she's arguing about

30:13

like cutting the dress or dying at

30:15

bed and then she puts it on

30:17

and she just loves it and like

30:19

again it's just yes should they have

30:22

gotten a Puerto Rican actress for sure.

30:24

Again it's like there these are things

30:26

that like obviously there are people in

30:28

the 1960s who got it right like

30:30

they're people in the in the in

30:32

the in the olden times who were

30:34

ahead of their time that knew you

30:37

know, what was right and what was

30:39

wrong, that weren't racist, whatever. Most of

30:41

the people that were making movies during

30:43

that time were not woke, okay? They

30:45

didn't have woke yet. And like when

30:47

I, if they, you know, when they

30:49

made, I mean, they did remake Westside's

30:51

for it recently, which we don't even

30:54

have to, we don't have to get

30:56

into that, because that's not what matters

30:58

today. But like, you know, if they

31:00

were to make that exact movie, that

31:02

exact movie, That was just the situation.

31:04

And as a person of color, like,

31:06

there are things that, like, I just,

31:09

I choose to enjoy, even though they

31:11

offend my sensibilities. And like, I think

31:13

that's what's funny about, like, whenever people

31:15

get mad, like, whenever. right leaning people

31:17

get mad about the woke left and

31:19

the woke movement and stuff. It's like,

31:21

the truth is, like, I can still

31:24

enjoy a lot of old stuff that's

31:26

kind of racist. I just read Magam's

31:28

The Razor's Edge, which I really liked,

31:30

and like, I didn't know the N-word

31:32

was in that book a couple of

31:34

times, but I don't like this book

31:36

now, because it has the N-word, like,

31:39

I was like, this is a great

31:41

book, and people's and then we're back

31:43

then we're back then, big, big, big,

31:45

big, big, big, like, like, like, big,

31:47

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

31:49

like, you can just kind of get

31:51

over the fact that there are like

31:53

racial insensivities and you can get over

31:56

the fact that they're gender insensivities like

31:58

in my opinion like you can enjoy

32:00

things from the past even if they're

32:02

not up to present-day standards and I

32:04

think that both sides were as a

32:06

perfect example of like yeah like it

32:08

wouldn't pass a sniff test now that

32:11

version of the movie but like it

32:13

was it it's a everyone in it

32:15

is so talented everyone who made it

32:17

is so talented and I think it's

32:19

worth keeping it around like I think

32:21

it should stay in the canon like

32:23

it's it's just great oh this is

32:26

this is here to stay forever but

32:28

like it's also I'm so I completely

32:30

am subscribe to your line of thought

32:32

100% it's something I've been thinking about

32:34

a lot lately where I'm the kind

32:36

of the plethora of content that we

32:38

have and the impossibility to choose between

32:40

all of it of the books we're

32:43

going to read and like what. And

32:45

the more I think of like people

32:47

weeding things out based on sensibilities, I'm

32:49

sort of, I'm beginning to like be

32:51

like, oh, are you just weeding it

32:53

out because you want an excuse? You're

32:55

just trying to winnow down your pool

32:58

of things that you are going to

33:00

see? You're just trying to winnow down

33:02

your pool of things that you are

33:04

going to see? It's like, you can

33:06

just try to winnow your pool of

33:08

things like, if you're triggered, I'm not

33:10

going to watch this thing. that has

33:13

a graphic scene of sexual assault in

33:15

it, because that triggers me. Of course,

33:17

more power to you. Like that is

33:19

a very valid reason to not read

33:21

something, or to not watch something. But

33:23

to say, like, on principle, like, I

33:25

won't, I don't want to consume anything

33:28

that has racist content in it. It's

33:30

like, I don't, I don't personally know

33:32

anyone, I think that would do that.

33:34

I mean, it's very different if like,

33:36

oh, I'm not going to read this,

33:38

because the author. says the n-word all

33:40

the time. It's like different. But if

33:42

it's like if something, if the art

33:45

itself is like, oh yeah, like they

33:47

didn't cast a person of the red

33:49

ethnicity in this role, or like, oh

33:51

yeah, there's like racial slurs, it's like,

33:53

I just want, but it's, it's important

33:55

to watch things that represent how things

33:57

used to be as well. I think

34:00

that. it's valuable to be able to

34:02

track through time, like the development of, like,

34:04

how we make art and what we deem

34:06

to be acceptable in art. And

34:08

I was reading, I don't remember what

34:10

book I was reading, I think it

34:13

might have been a Chuck Klosterman book,

34:15

but talking about how, like, if you

34:17

watch Madman, which is supposed to be,

34:19

like, a faithful depiction of the 1960ies,

34:21

it actually tells you a lot more

34:23

about the 2000s when it was made

34:25

than it tells you about the 1960s. about like

34:27

the time, you learn not only about the period

34:30

that it said in, but also like what people

34:32

thought about that time period when they were making

34:34

it. So you learn, the madman is not a

34:36

depiction of the 1960s, it's a depiction of what

34:38

people in the 2000s thought the 1960s was like.

34:41

And so I think like having a real lifetime

34:43

capsule in the form of West Side story is

34:45

very valuable. It's like this is what

34:47

the people actually were thinking and saying

34:49

and doing in doing in that time, and

34:51

this is what they thought was acceptable acceptable.

34:54

Yeah, and these were sort of

34:56

artistic manifestations of real concerns

34:58

as well. And I think

35:00

what's so powerful, and this

35:02

was like a genuinely controversial

35:04

thing when it came out

35:06

and like the way in which people

35:08

were using dance and jazz

35:11

and basically every artistic color

35:13

in their palate, like sometimes literally

35:15

with the use of color in

35:18

the movie, to highlight what was

35:20

a contemporary issue. Like that

35:22

was that was legitimately a concern

35:24

for people like and there's something

35:27

so like could you if you

35:29

wanted to make fun of the fact that

35:31

like For the majority of the movie

35:33

most of this war and this fighting

35:36

is happening via medium museum of

35:38

like dancing and clicking like yes

35:40

But does that also mean that

35:42

we got a PG film that

35:44

you could like truly explore the

35:46

kind of? this issue that most Americans would

35:48

only have heard of in paper is reported

35:50

on in a very, probably racist or at

35:52

least biased way. Do you know what I

35:54

mean? Like, yeah, I mean, it's obvious, it

35:56

is a funny joke. It's a punchline now

35:58

that like, yes, they're dancing. and if you

36:00

had a movie that was just a

36:03

bunch of people just beating the crap

36:05

out of each other, that was a

36:07

way of expressing something that would have

36:09

been, if you had made it not

36:11

a, like if it wasn't a musical,

36:13

or like if it was a musical,

36:15

but it didn't involve dancing, it involved

36:18

actual violence. Like, I mean, the only

36:20

really violent scene is like the last

36:22

scene, basically. And if you had a

36:24

movie that was just a bunch of

36:26

people just beating the crap out of

36:28

each other, you know, it doesn't, As

36:30

a person who does, I'm a person

36:33

who doesn't necessarily appreciate dance in art

36:35

form probably as much as I should,

36:37

and I think that framing in that

36:39

way definitely makes me take a step

36:41

back and consider the utility of dance

36:43

and how, especially in any show where

36:45

there's any kind of violence, the usage

36:47

of dance as a stand-in for any

36:50

kind of violence or violation is actually

36:52

quite profound, and I think I didn't

36:54

really appreciate it as much as I

36:56

probably should have. While we're on the

36:58

subject of violation, like that... That fucking

37:00

scene with Rita Marino's character at the

37:02

end I held my breath the entire

37:05

time It's horrible and again, it's something

37:07

that when I was a kid I

37:09

just completely went over my head Yeah,

37:11

like they're dancing really hard around that

37:13

kind of thing and like it's um

37:15

you're you're truly afraid for her safety

37:17

and and also weirdly darkly curious as

37:20

to how far the movie is prepared

37:22

to take it kind of thing and

37:24

yeah It also, it really gives me

37:26

a lot of like thought around, because

37:28

this is a very like five years

37:30

ago topic, but like, a while ago

37:32

there was so much discussion over like

37:35

what was okay to show in a

37:37

rape scene or a sexual assault scene.

37:39

And I remember there being this odd

37:41

kind of jezebel.com sort of ruling on

37:43

what is like. Heck, this is a

37:45

good rape scene. There's one in Orange's

37:47

New Black. Boo, this is a. bad

37:50

rape scene, the one from, and where

37:52

it's like, kind of implying that there's

37:54

only one kind of like, a scene

37:56

like that you can shoot implies that

37:58

there's only one kind of way that

38:00

can happen, and that's just not honest.

38:02

And I, at the time I remember

38:05

that feeling very relevant, but looking back

38:07

now, I'm like, what kind of crazy

38:09

shit were we on? You didn't have

38:11

enough going on? We started making up

38:13

stuff. That's what happens. You read certain

38:15

articles from like however many years ago

38:17

and you're like, we just didn't have

38:20

enough, like now there's real stuff going

38:22

on and we just didn't have enough

38:24

to think about. I'm so glad that

38:26

somebody said this because I had this

38:28

moment the other day because I used

38:30

to work at a women's website like

38:32

a very, like it was like London's

38:35

equivalent to Jezebel or whatever. I'm like

38:37

we were so fucking naive. What the

38:39

fuck were we on about? I mean,

38:41

it goes to show the propaganda machine

38:43

was very effective. The propaganda machine's not

38:45

working as well anymore, really. Because a

38:47

lot of the stuff that we're dealing

38:50

with now has been going on for

38:52

a long time. But like, the mask

38:54

is just off. But like, you know,

38:56

10 years ago, like, we were just

38:58

like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. With

39:00

Buzzfeed listicles? Like, like, we were just

39:02

over there in the content factory making

39:05

a... Portmanteauptos, do you mean? Like, she,

39:07

oh, mom who ends up. But meanwhile,

39:09

world was already burning, but we didn't

39:11

know. So we were just like 10

39:13

ways to lean in. But, but yeah,

39:15

I mean, I think like, I mean,

39:17

I've definitely read think pieces about like

39:20

the depiction of sexual assault in media.

39:22

And I think at the end of

39:24

the day, like, it's something that like.

39:26

I don't know if there's like a

39:28

handbook. I don't know if there's like

39:30

a rulebook that we can say like

39:32

this is definitively the way to do

39:35

it and the way to not do

39:37

it. I mean I'm personally, maybe this

39:39

is controversial, maybe this is like overly

39:41

conservative. I think that there's a lot

39:43

of value in not showing. I think

39:45

there's a lot of value in implying.

39:47

Just because, like, the more graphic, a

39:50

scene like that, like, I just watched,

39:52

um, not to spark more controversy, but

39:54

I just watched it ends with us,

39:56

the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni movie. Oh,

39:58

haven't seen, what was your type. I

40:00

didn't watch it when it came out

40:02

in theaters when I was on streaming,

40:05

and there's like a protracted. graphic sexual

40:07

assault scene and I didn't know that

40:09

it was in there and I almost

40:11

turned the movie off and I was

40:13

like what value does this have like

40:15

we are it's about obviously it's about

40:17

an abusive husband and like we already

40:20

knew he was abusive like it was

40:22

already had already been established time and

40:24

time again and then they go and

40:26

put this long like overly long scene

40:28

and I was like this is upsetting

40:30

and this is unnecessary and I'm baffled

40:32

that it was included And obviously in

40:34

the case of one side story, like

40:37

that scene is not graphic, like nothing

40:39

really happens. And I think that like

40:41

there's value in that. In the same

40:43

way that like having dance as a

40:45

stand-in for fighting, having dance as a

40:47

stand-in for the implication of sexual assault,

40:49

you get the point, you know, and

40:52

like you get the message and like...

40:54

I don't know, like I think, not

40:56

that it's uncreative to depict sexual assault

40:58

literally and to depict it in real

41:00

time, but like, I often wonder, like,

41:02

what is the value of this? Like,

41:04

are you trying, because sometimes it feels

41:07

like they're trying to, like, confusedly, titillate

41:09

the viewer. And it's like, that's not

41:11

what that's supposed to be. Like, having

41:13

the implication off screen or through some

41:15

other means. It gets the message across

41:17

and the character living with the aftermath

41:19

of that gets the message across. And

41:22

I, yeah, I don't, I'm going to

41:24

argue against depicting it pretty much every

41:26

time. Yeah, I can like, what do

41:28

I really think? I do think there

41:30

are cases where it can be powerful,

41:32

but then again, I'm also struggling to

41:34

think of those cases. Do you know

41:37

what I mean? If I were to

41:39

give you like, I serve you up

41:41

a thing where it's like, oh, we

41:43

see it all. and it matters. Weirdly,

41:45

the scenes that always get me and

41:47

that I love and that I would

41:49

never want to get rid of are

41:52

scenes that inevitably end in some kind

41:54

of female triumph. Like, I don't know

41:56

if the movie True Romance at all.

41:58

No. So in that, you know, Patricia

42:00

Arquette is like this tiny little sexy

42:02

girl and she is, and James Gandalfini

42:04

is a hitman who tries to murder

42:07

her and then she ends up murdering

42:09

him. But first we see her take

42:11

a fucking beating and it is savage.

42:13

And it's hard to watch but also

42:15

the ways in which she fights back

42:17

and I love this. I love when

42:19

a woman fights back with her like

42:22

female stuff that's around. So she like,

42:24

it's like hair spray in the eyes

42:26

and then she picks up the back

42:28

of the toilet thing and like knocks

42:30

him over the head and then gets

42:32

a wine screw through his feet and

42:34

it's like, it's that kind of, that

42:37

sort of scrappy girl fighting that's just

42:39

like stuff and I love it and

42:41

I guess I would never trade in

42:43

that scene because the release that you

42:45

get at the end of it is

42:47

so. It feels so cathartic. Like, I

42:49

carry it. And I also just thought

42:52

of a scene that I do, even

42:54

though it was incredibly difficult to watch,

42:56

I did think it was amazing. Did

42:58

you see Baby Reindeer? No. God, we

43:00

haven't seen those things. I mean, Baby

43:02

Reindeer, I would say, go into it,

43:04

don't go into it when you're feeling

43:07

mentally or emotionally fragile. That is a.

43:09

dark, dark show. But there's one episode

43:11

in the middle in particular that like

43:13

basically the entire episode, you will have

43:15

a stomach ache. Like it is almost

43:17

unbearable to watch. And there is a

43:19

scene of sexual assault. I mean, there's

43:22

a couple of scenes of sexual assault

43:24

on the show, but there's one in

43:26

particular that people who have seen it

43:28

will know what I'm talking about. And

43:30

it is like, it's the most graphic

43:32

scene of sexual assault I've ever seen.

43:34

And it was horrible. I do see

43:37

why it was included. And like I

43:39

did, and also the victim in this

43:41

case is a man, which like maybe

43:43

that's why, maybe that's why. But that's

43:45

like the one that jumps to my

43:47

mind of like that was really graphic.

43:49

they could have implied it, they chose

43:52

not. I think if I remember correctly,

43:54

you think the camera is gonna move.

43:56

It's about to, like you think it's

43:58

about to happen, you think the camera

44:00

is about to move away to imply

44:02

it and it doesn't move. And that,

44:04

I mean, it's not for, I think

44:06

a lot of people probably would not

44:09

be able to bear watching it. I

44:11

don't know how I, I think I

44:13

was just in a head space where

44:15

I was able to handle it, but.

44:17

That is an example of a scene

44:19

where I think it did work, um,

44:21

narratively. But it's rare, it's rare. And

44:24

I do, I mean, but Westside's story,

44:26

like, that would have been really out

44:28

of place. Like, if they had done,

44:30

like, yes, that would have been crazy,

44:32

totally crazy. Yeah. But the thing is,

44:34

it's still a crazy total shit. It

44:36

is already a crazy channel shit. Even

44:39

though it stays. Don Brown. Yeah, it

44:41

wasn't in Christopher Lloyd, it just appears

44:43

the movie for 30 seconds. No, but

44:45

Doc, the owner of the pharmacy, he

44:47

comes in and interrupts, right? That's what

44:49

stops it, right? Yes, and then he

44:51

says, he kind of helps her up

44:54

and he gets her out of there

44:56

and he says, I don't know why

44:58

you boys have to pretend to be

45:00

at war all the time. Which is

45:02

so, I think, is really effective and

45:04

also really speaks to, I think, I'm

45:06

not a, because kind of gangland violence

45:09

was such a hot button topic of

45:11

that era and you know that was

45:13

also reflected in things like rebel that

45:15

a cause and you can so feel

45:17

the previous generation who has gone through

45:19

to world wars and like who had

45:21

like you know we're sort of dreaming

45:24

up this America for this new generation

45:26

of baby boomer kids and and and

45:28

being like why are you why are

45:30

you doing this and and and Yeah,

45:32

and the answer to that is I

45:34

think that we are so good at

45:36

training men for army that they will

45:39

turn everything into army like yes, yes

45:41

men will make absolutely anything into army

45:43

me. Yeah, I mean, I read a

45:45

book a few years ago about serial

45:47

killers. I had a bit of a

45:49

serial killer face like many women do,

45:51

I think. And one of the, like

45:54

they were talking about like, obviously the

45:56

the critical mass of serial killers was

45:58

like in the 70s and 80s. Yeah.

46:00

And one of the things that they

46:02

talked about being a reason why is

46:04

that the men, these men had fathers

46:06

who had fought in World War II,

46:09

who had come home, who had PTSD

46:11

and like. didn't know how to talk

46:13

about what they had seen. And these

46:15

were boys that had grown up like

46:17

on stories and depictions of the war.

46:19

And they'd, I mean, obviously the Vietnam

46:21

War happened, but it was like it

46:24

wasn't the same. And I think that

46:26

like, to your point generationally, like, especially

46:28

in America, like, yeah, we're kind of

46:30

just. Everything sort of is implied that

46:32

men are eventually going to have to

46:34

take up arms. Like the implication of

46:36

American culture is like as a man,

46:39

everything you're doing is in preparation for

46:41

one day having to defend your wife,

46:43

your kids, your country. Like at some

46:45

point that's going to be called into

46:47

question and you're going to have to

46:49

either fight with your bare hands or

46:51

with a gun and do something about

46:54

it. And so all of that like

46:56

fear and dread and anxiety and anger

46:58

gets displaced onto other things and creates

47:00

army where there's anyone with eyes to

47:02

eyes to see it. Exactly! Everything is

47:04

army! Yeah, completely. And like, you know,

47:06

because I'm self-employed and I try and

47:09

go to the gym when I can,

47:11

you know, I sort of like pop

47:13

up there or whatever, and you see

47:15

like the same guys who are just

47:17

getting jacked, like more and more, like

47:19

the hugest guys you've ever seen in

47:21

the gym at like 1.30 on a

47:24

Tuesday, and I'm like, you have no

47:26

job to go to and you're just,

47:28

you're preparing, but for what, like is

47:30

that? I mean, I think not to

47:32

go so far off script, but that

47:34

was I think, I read an interesting

47:36

article about this as well, like during

47:39

the early days of the pandemic, about

47:41

how part of the reason that people

47:43

were so resistant to the measures that

47:45

the government was asking for, the masks,

47:47

the lockdowns, the people are still resistant

47:49

to masks, is because... Especially a men,

47:51

is that they want an apocalypse that

47:53

involves them being able to take up

47:56

arms and fight. They envision an apocalypse

47:58

where they get to kill a zombie

48:00

with it. Like they get to cut

48:02

off people's heads or they get to

48:04

have an automatic weapon. And they don't

48:06

want an apocalypse that the rules are

48:08

you have to help people. They don't

48:11

want an apocalypse that you have to

48:13

wash your hands and wear a mask

48:15

and stay inside. They want an apocalypse

48:17

that involves a fight. Or either they

48:19

will die or someone else will die

48:21

at their hand. And that's generally like

48:23

what the, like most of the problems

48:26

that we're dealing with now, like also

48:28

the global existential problems we're dealing with

48:30

now, can be solved by empathy, taking

48:32

care of each other, and science, and

48:34

they want global problems that involve war.

48:36

They just want war. They just want

48:38

the global problems to be like. Oh,

48:41

what your government needs you to do

48:43

is to go out and kill a

48:45

bunch of people. They don't want your

48:47

government to be like, hey, can you

48:49

stop eating someone's red meat and wash

48:51

your hands? They don't want that to

48:53

be the answer. And that's why we

48:56

have the men that we have now.

48:58

Oh, what is the solve? Someone tell

49:00

us what the solve is. I mean,

49:02

I hope it's that like with generational

49:04

turnover. But unfortunately, a lot of these

49:06

men are going to keep instilling those

49:08

things in their children. People always say,

49:11

oh, well, the old generation's going to

49:13

die out, and then it will be

49:15

over. It's like, no, because they instilled

49:17

it in their kids. And they instilled

49:19

it in their kids. We have to

49:21

be really conscious about trying to fix

49:23

those things. But yeah, I mean, it

49:26

will require a great cultural shift for

49:28

people to not have the West Side

49:30

stories taking place of people thinking that

49:32

like, because obviously the answer to You

49:34

know, the central problem of Westside story

49:36

is both sides being like, hey, these

49:38

are two kids in love, let's give

49:41

them a break, let's be nice to

49:43

them and let's see how this goes

49:45

and let's not kill each other over

49:47

it. But they don't want, they want

49:49

the answer to be, we have to

49:51

literally wipe the other off the other.

49:53

Yeah, and really, Tony and Maria are

49:56

in, they're not the reason they're fighting,

49:58

but they're an excuse to fight more.

50:00

been something else. I'm really fascinated why

50:02

we're on this subject of men and

50:04

how their violence is like, you know,

50:06

contained and discussed. That song, that like,

50:08

I mean, if we're singing in the

50:10

rain, it would be the Be a

50:12

Clown song, you know? That song, Officer

50:15

Krupsky, and they're just all... Yeah, that

50:17

one's fun. It rocks, it's so good.

50:19

And it like, again, like, you just

50:21

want to like, watch it again, and

50:23

like, like, I get the lyrics up

50:25

the lyrics up and everything. but there's

50:27

this whole thing of like essentially the

50:29

jet being like giving this sort of

50:31

fake confession. to first the officer that

50:34

they kind of know, Officer Krupsky and

50:36

then a judge and then like a

50:38

kind of like a therapist, but essentially

50:40

giving the reasons with which they're kind

50:42

of permitted to behave the ways that

50:44

they behave. And some of them are

50:46

probably broadly and like demographically true, like

50:48

oh my dad hits me and my

50:50

mom's a drug addict, I'm this or

50:52

whatever, but it's all played in this

50:55

kind of clowny way and like sociologically,

50:57

I'm, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a,

50:59

fucked up, ha ha ha ha ha,

51:01

kind of thing. And there's just sort

51:03

of like, it's, I don't know whether

51:05

this was true at the time, or

51:07

I'm just putting this reading on it

51:09

because I'm living in 2025, but like,

51:11

it feels like, oh, there's always been

51:14

this interest in like diagnosing and pathologizing

51:16

kind of white male violence. And there's

51:18

like, there's like a margin for sympathy

51:20

that does not exist elsewhere, you know?

51:22

Yeah, I mean, it's, I guess I

51:24

hadn't really thought about that either, because

51:26

I was thinking about how. I was

51:28

like, well, women don't really do, women

51:30

don't do violence in that same way.

51:32

But then I was like, oh, but

51:35

like if whenever men who aren't white

51:37

are violent, at least the mainstream media

51:39

and the mainstream understanding of that violence

51:41

is immediately turned into like an innate

51:43

trait, like a completely nonfungible innate character

51:45

trait and a moral failing. Whereas like

51:47

when a white man does violence, it's

51:49

like, oh, well, but can you blame

51:51

him because of all the stuff that

51:54

happened to him? as if that stuff

51:56

doesn't happen to other people as well.

51:58

But I mean, I thought it was

52:00

interesting, I thought it was interesting like

52:02

watching them. Yeah, I never really knew

52:04

what to make of that song, because

52:06

is it like, is it them being

52:08

like winking and self-aware? Is it them

52:10

using it as an excuse? Like, yeah.

52:12

There's so much. there's so much to

52:15

it and I do it would be

52:17

and we don't really get to explore

52:19

the backstory of the jets at all

52:21

like as you're to your point like

52:23

yeah it is probably demographically true but

52:25

it's like we don't know specifically the

52:27

lore of any of those people and

52:29

we don't know there's no parents in

52:31

that movie like we don't know we

52:34

don't there's no parents in that movie

52:36

like we don't know we don't there's

52:38

no parents in that movie we don't

52:40

there's no parents in that movie in

52:42

that movie we don't know anyone's really,

52:44

they don't know what the hell they're

52:46

doing. They're not really doing any raising

52:48

of any kind. Although, there's that kid,

52:50

there's Baby John, the youngest one, and

52:52

there's the, they do have that protective

52:55

instinct over Baby John, and they obviously

52:57

have some degree of protection over each

52:59

other, but with Baby John, there's like,

53:01

this desire almost to keep him pure,

53:03

like they're trying to shield him from

53:05

the worst of it. So there is

53:07

some parental, but ultimately it's not enough

53:09

to stop to stop. What's your take

53:11

on Anybody? Is that her name? Anybodies,

53:14

yeah. I mean, it's such a, it's

53:16

kind of such a throwaway character, like

53:18

she doesn't get very much juice. I

53:20

can feel like I can feel the

53:22

generations of girls, gays, and days who

53:24

have just like seen various parts of

53:26

themselves in Anybody. She feels like an

53:28

important sort of tiny character that you

53:30

wish had more, but you know. I

53:32

mean, I think like she's an example

53:35

of like... you know she obviously wants

53:37

power like she's an example like a

53:39

lot of the women in this movie

53:41

not that they're content with powerlessness but

53:43

they're they've kind of resigned themselves to

53:45

the way that the world works and

53:47

the way that most people do like

53:49

I think most people are not like

53:51

revolutionaries like most people kind of like

53:54

look at the social order and they

53:56

go okay I see where I fit

53:58

into this I'm gonna get my licks

54:00

where I can I'm gonna try to

54:02

get myself ahead where I can but

54:04

ultimately I'm gonna play by the rules

54:06

and I'm gonna slot into the role

54:08

that I've been assigned and anybody's is

54:10

like I'm not doing that I want

54:12

to I want the currency that comes

54:15

with being a man and or being

54:17

a boy I guess and cuts off

54:19

all her hair and wears their clothes

54:21

and is like this should be enough.

54:23

But I mean I think I think

54:25

the I guess the function of her

54:27

character is to demonstrate that's like there's

54:29

in that particular setting like the idea

54:31

of being a man goes it's deeper

54:34

than the performance than the clothing and

54:36

hair performance aspect of it that they

54:38

have I mean I guess in the

54:40

same way now that like people like

54:42

conservatives insist that like trans people are

54:44

not Real or that they're not actually

54:46

in fact trans Yeah, they did they're

54:48

they're insistent that like she can't possibly

54:50

participate just because she cut her hair

54:52

and wore different clothes I Mean that

54:55

but I think I think her her

54:57

thing is that she's trying to get

54:59

access to some kind of power she's

55:01

poor like the rest of them. They're

55:03

also poor She doesn't have seemingly, as

55:05

far as we know, the network that

55:07

Maria and Anita at least have, like

55:09

they at least have each other, they

55:11

have the other women, they have the

55:14

dress shop, like they do have a

55:16

community. I guess the implication is that

55:18

anybody doesn't have that form of community

55:20

and it's like the only community that

55:22

she sees that's worth having is the

55:24

jets. And she's trying to get it

55:26

by any means necessary and they just

55:28

reject her at every turn. Like, well

55:30

where does she go after that? I

55:32

don't know, it says, you're a real

55:35

nice guy. She's like, Ray. I think

55:37

they give her a knife, maybe? Like,

55:39

she gets something. She gets a little

55:41

triumph at the end. But it's interesting

55:43

watching how every single character in the

55:45

movie is, like, I need to get,

55:47

I need to get mine where I

55:49

can. Like, the resources are so artificially

55:51

scarce. And so they are all looking

55:53

for the ways to just get any

55:56

crime. of autonomy or community or power.

55:58

Do you have any other like special

56:00

interest in any of the side characters?

56:02

I mean, side characters are very, they

56:04

have a function, you know what I

56:06

mean? You know, I, what I found,

56:08

when I first watched the movie I

56:10

would kind of glaze over during the

56:12

scene, but in later watches it became

56:15

more interesting, was I think his name's

56:17

Ice Man, the guy who sings cool.

56:19

Oh yeah, what's your take on that

56:21

song? Tell me more. I just like

56:23

it, I started to like it so

56:25

much more and the more I watched

56:27

it. And it wasn't, again, an interesting

56:29

kind of tile in the mosaic of

56:31

masculinity that they're creating, because like the

56:33

whole thing is that like they're so

56:36

violent and they're constantly looking for a

56:38

fight and Iceman is like, relax, everybody

56:40

just relax for a second. And obviously

56:42

in his case, it's like, he's trying

56:44

to prevent them from being caught, you

56:46

know, it's self-preservation more than anything, but

56:48

it's interesting. theme to explore of like

56:50

what if masculinity was about pausing and

56:52

thinking before we act as opposed to

56:55

about just immediately doing violence at any

56:57

opportunity or the first sign of being

56:59

disrespected. I was just gonna say, he's

57:01

also kind of hot, I realize now.

57:03

He's fucking hot, yeah, totally hot. Like

57:05

didn't really, again, was wasted on me

57:07

as a nine year old, but the

57:09

older watches, I'm like, wait, he's like

57:11

the hottest guy in the movie. Yeah,

57:13

very piercing wolf eyes. Yeah, and like

57:16

just like distinguished and I think again

57:18

in contrast to like Riff is so

57:20

parapetetic and Bernardo is so macho and

57:22

misogynistic and like everyone is everyone is

57:24

so violent and like insane and like

57:26

just like a live wire and he's

57:28

just like he's calm cool. He's ice,

57:30

that's what they call him ice man.

57:32

And that's the hottest guy in the

57:35

movie and I think that's an important

57:37

thing that you learn as you get

57:39

older as you get older. So

57:41

important. What do you think is the

57:43

relevance in that scene when all the

57:46

girls are just like flashing the headlights

57:48

on the cars? It's very spooky, but

57:50

I don't know what it's for, it

57:52

just maybe atmosphere, I don't know. I

57:54

mean, I think atmosphere, I think like

57:57

trying to maybe desensitize them from sudden

57:59

movement. Yeah, I don't know. I feel

58:01

like it's, yeah, the girls are also,

58:03

I mean, there's also the argument of

58:05

like they're just trying to participate, right?

58:08

Like the girls are, what's it, they're

58:10

named, Graziella, and I don't remember the

58:12

other one's name. But they're very rarely

58:14

afforded any opportunity to participate. They're the

58:16

arm candy of the guys. And I

58:19

think there's a moment where they say

58:21

something to that effect, where they're like,

58:23

we can do stuff. We can be

58:25

helpful too. And they're like, I get

58:27

out of here. And they're like, I

58:30

get out of here. I think that

58:32

they're like, I get out of here.

58:34

I think that they're, I get out

58:36

of here. I think that they're, I

58:38

think they're, I get out of here.

58:41

And I think it's an opportunity for

58:43

them to feel like they're participating in

58:45

the conference about what to do next,

58:47

about the strategy meeting. I feel like

58:49

we've skipped over some very key Tony

58:52

and Maria bits, and the bits I

58:54

wanted to line on specifically is that

58:56

the whole piece in the bridal shop

58:58

and also somewhere. Which feels like its

59:00

own thing. Yeah, I mean, I gotta

59:02

say like now that you mentioned I'm

59:05

like oh, we've talked about like all

59:07

my favorite moments in the movie because

59:09

frankly the Tony and Maria moments are

59:11

not as interesting Like I find they're

59:13

just like sweet They're very sweet. I

59:16

do think that the dance scene with

59:18

Tony and Maria is great. I almost

59:20

like more The Tony and Marie Tony

59:22

and Maria talking about each other separate

59:24

then I've liked them together like Tony

59:27

talking about Maria in Maria beautiful Maria

59:29

and Anita singing a boy like that

59:31

Literally like life changing such a knockout

59:33

song. I love how it's choreographed. I

59:35

love the lighting. They're so amazing Tony

59:38

Maria in the bridal shop Tony and

59:40

Maria getting married like It's a little

59:42

slow somewhere is a beautiful song. It

59:44

is also again if you're talking about

59:46

the heart and soul of the movie

59:49

another song that really is the heart

59:51

and soul of the movie just like

59:53

talking about like there is got to

59:55

be a better place and one day

59:57

we will get there One day we

1:00:00

will be able to live somewhere freely.

1:00:02

One day it won't be like this.

1:00:04

But it doesn't, I feel like inadvertently,

1:00:06

and I feel like this happens in

1:00:08

a lot of, maybe not all love stories, but

1:00:10

in a lot of love stories, where you

1:00:12

do have a built-out ensemble cast,

1:00:15

the other people just end up being

1:00:17

more compelling. Because Maria, the theme of

1:00:19

Marie and Tony, they have to be

1:00:21

stand-ins. for like a universal love

1:00:23

story in many ways. They're not

1:00:25

really allowed to have much personality

1:00:27

because they have to just be

1:00:29

like universal man and universal woman.

1:00:31

Whereas like these other characters are

1:00:33

able to play more of a variety

1:00:35

of different roles. Like Anita gets to

1:00:37

be like. hot spicy love interest and

1:00:39

also voice of reason and also like

1:00:42

strong independent woman like she's very multi-dimensional

1:00:44

and similarly like riff I feel like

1:00:46

is multi-dimensional because he's like you know

1:00:48

tough wise cracking gang leader but also

1:00:50

like sensitive guy in search of a

1:00:52

brother like there's just like they all

1:00:54

they all have stories whereas like Tony

1:00:56

and Maria the only stories that they

1:00:58

get I mean Tony gets a little

1:01:00

bit of like I used to be

1:01:02

a gang gang gangbanger and I'm not anymore

1:01:04

but mostly it's just that they have to

1:01:07

be two people in love and that's like

1:01:09

the entire narrative and they do not

1:01:11

get any desires outside of each other and

1:01:13

I think maybe that's what makes it harder for

1:01:15

me like when I return to it I'm like

1:01:17

I'm kind of more interested in these

1:01:20

other stories because like contemporary romcoms

1:01:22

don't really they can't really get

1:01:24

by without giving the leads real

1:01:26

depth and and dimension but that

1:01:28

story it doesn't really function unless

1:01:30

it's almost like a folk tale

1:01:32

of like they're the units that

1:01:34

they have to follow that trajectory.

1:01:36

Yeah, and there are so many

1:01:38

musicals that are like that, if

1:01:41

you think of even Greece, like,

1:01:43

you don't care about Sandy, you

1:01:45

care about Rizzo, you know? Rizzo

1:01:47

has the best songs, she has

1:01:49

the best one-liners, she's the most

1:01:52

interesting, yeah, Sandy is just

1:01:54

like, I mean, it's in fan fiction,

1:01:56

you know, like the term Mary Sue?

1:01:58

Yes, I do, yeah. of the Mary

1:02:00

Sue is basically just like the standard female

1:02:02

character who is perfect. Like she doesn't have

1:02:05

any real flaws. She doesn't have any real

1:02:07

quirks or personality like she or if she

1:02:09

does have any like hobbies or traits like

1:02:11

she's kind of good at everything everything kind

1:02:13

of goes her way. Like she's just not

1:02:16

interesting and it's impossible to root for her

1:02:18

because like she's so unreliable. Like she's beautiful

1:02:20

without knowing it and blah blah blah. Like

1:02:22

there's and unfortunately there are certain. like protagonists

1:02:24

in various pieces of media that are like

1:02:27

that. But the function of that being in

1:02:29

like a love story is it's like

1:02:31

she's beautiful, everyone knows she's beautiful, she

1:02:33

does whatever is expected of a woman

1:02:35

in the social contract that she's inhabiting,

1:02:38

so like in this case like she's

1:02:40

docile, like she's, I mean she says

1:02:42

to Bernada like I want to down

1:02:44

my dress red, but ultimately she, her

1:02:47

only act of rebellion is through falling

1:02:49

in love with this man, she would

1:02:51

never rebel in any other way. It's

1:02:53

like this event is the creation of

1:02:55

her character. Like this is the thing that

1:02:57

will, she will define her life around. And

1:02:59

like, there's something, I mean, because I didn't

1:03:01

know the ending. I mean, I knew they were,

1:03:03

I knew it's Romeo and Juliet. So I was

1:03:05

like, well, they're both gonna have to die. And

1:03:08

so, yeah, fascinating that she doesn't. When she

1:03:10

takes the gun at the end, you just

1:03:12

think like, oh, not really, what's going to

1:03:14

shoot herself on the head? Like, or whatever.

1:03:16

And then she kind of walks off

1:03:18

and you're just left staring at the

1:03:21

screen and you have to think about

1:03:23

like, who that woman has to be

1:03:25

tomorrow, you know? Yeah, it definitely, it

1:03:27

creates the opportunity for her to be

1:03:29

so much more than she was. And I

1:03:31

mean, I guess to her credit, like, she

1:03:33

had led such an incredibly sheltered life and

1:03:35

she lived an entire lifetime in three days.

1:03:38

that she has experienced the loss of who

1:03:40

she thought was the love of her life, it will inevitably

1:03:42

engender some character development. Like something,

1:03:44

she's gonna develop a personality now.

1:03:47

But yeah, Tony, I mean, yeah, Tony, similarly,

1:03:49

like he's kind of, I don't remember, was

1:03:51

like, I think they call it Gary Sue.

1:03:53

There's like, whatever. Gary Sue. I don't, I'm

1:03:55

thinking that I don't remember if that's right,

1:03:57

but there's like some equivalent for men, but

1:03:59

it's. Perfect. He also like, I mean, I

1:04:01

will say, oh, what's, what's the name of

1:04:04

his song? Is it called, could be, who

1:04:06

knows? What's the name, the song that he's

1:04:08

in, could be, who knows? It's only just

1:04:10

out of reach down the block on a

1:04:12

beach. That one, I love that song too,

1:04:15

also one that I always watch whenever

1:04:17

you watch it. He is clearly

1:04:19

foreshadowing his meeting of Maria. So I

1:04:21

guess in theory he's slightly more depth, but

1:04:23

ultimately his his character is like just in

1:04:26

a state of waiting It's like oh, I

1:04:28

want something to happen to me. That's his

1:04:30

whole personality and then he meets Marie, and

1:04:32

he's like well, that's the thing that was supposed

1:04:35

to happen to me And then he dies Yeah,

1:04:37

Marie is the one that comes out with the

1:04:39

opportunity to have to have a real life and

1:04:41

to have have opinions and experiences

1:04:43

I also just love, like the way

1:04:45

that thing is shot man, the way

1:04:48

this whole fucking movie is shot, I

1:04:50

love any movie musical that is kind

1:04:52

of frank about the fact that it

1:04:54

was on stage and it was made

1:04:57

for stage and it's going to use

1:04:59

the elements of stage production where it's

1:05:01

the most beautiful place to do it,

1:05:04

you know, and like, it's so funny

1:05:06

because I remember growing up and I

1:05:08

wonder if you had this, watching movies

1:05:10

with my brothers and... having them say

1:05:13

like, oh, so clearly a set, do

1:05:15

you know what I mean? Like, or

1:05:17

whatever, you know, whenever, you know, on

1:05:20

an episode of friends when they're like

1:05:22

in the street outside the coffee

1:05:24

house, and it's like the

1:05:26

most like unconvincing sort of

1:05:28

Sesame Street New York, like

1:05:30

L.A. backlog you've ever seen,

1:05:32

and the older I get,

1:05:34

and the more I think

1:05:36

cinema has tended towards hyper

1:05:38

realism, I've been like, no, show me

1:05:40

the set. Show me the beautiful sets that

1:05:43

somebody has painted. And like, I was watching

1:05:45

Annie with a friend the other day and

1:05:47

we were a little stoned and my friend

1:05:49

said to me, she was like, you ever

1:05:51

hear that phrase seeing the joins? You know

1:05:54

that phrase? Well, when you can see the

1:05:56

joins of something, it's supposed to be an

1:05:58

insult. It means you can. see where the

1:06:00

wood is literally joining. It's like a

1:06:03

carpentry insult that people often use for

1:06:05

pieces of work. I'm like, oh, you

1:06:07

can see the joints of like, you

1:06:09

can see the effort and you can

1:06:11

see the fingerprints still on

1:06:13

this thing. And my friend said to

1:06:16

me, she was like, that used to

1:06:18

be an insult, but now I think

1:06:20

it's a compliment. I want to see

1:06:22

the joints and the nails and the

1:06:24

like the places where people built like

1:06:26

designed and built and built these sets.

1:06:29

and a fucking tripod and left it

1:06:31

there, you know? Like, one of the

1:06:33

reasons why La La Land is such

1:06:35

a disappointing musical is, first of all,

1:06:37

those people aren't very talented, and second

1:06:39

of all... I haven't seen it. That's

1:06:42

my act of rebellion, is I haven't

1:06:44

seen it. You're act of rebellion as an

1:06:46

LA person. Yeah. But like, also, it's like...

1:06:48

You know, I'm sure you probably know they've

1:06:50

got that highway that they've shut down

1:06:52

that famous highway that I'm sure has a

1:06:54

famous name and they have people sort of

1:06:56

like on top of their cars and dancing and

1:06:59

it should be incredible but because the

1:07:01

filmmaking sort of gets in the way

1:07:03

of what it's supposed to be, it's

1:07:05

all these like long tracking shots and

1:07:07

it follows certain dancers and so you

1:07:09

don't get any of the impressiveness. of

1:07:11

like what a movie musical like West

1:07:13

Side Story is trying to do, which

1:07:15

is it's trying to mimic the feeling

1:07:17

of being in the theater sitting totally

1:07:20

still and watching this fucking like six

1:07:22

minute dance scene happen in front of

1:07:24

you with real energy, real people, real

1:07:26

sweat and like you can just see

1:07:29

all the feet moving in tandem and

1:07:31

like that's like the breathless excitement of

1:07:33

musicals. And instead we just get

1:07:36

like very realistic looking musical worlds

1:07:38

that feel odd and and... cameras

1:07:40

that follow people and do tricky little things.

1:07:42

And it's like, it's just not what I

1:07:44

fucking want. And like, website stories, what I

1:07:46

want. Just like, beautiful sets and a still

1:07:48

fucking camera. I mean, that made me think

1:07:51

of so many things. Like, one, like, the

1:07:53

idea of the uncanny valley, right? Like, the

1:07:55

fact that everything, they're in their effort to

1:07:57

make everything hyper-real, like, ultimately, it's not real

1:07:59

what we're seeing. manufactured and so like it does

1:08:01

feel a little bit off like you're never gonna

1:08:04

get to the point of like oh yeah this

1:08:06

is a hundred percent fully real because it did

1:08:08

have to be staged but also that what that

1:08:10

made me think of was I don't remember

1:08:12

where I was reading this but just that

1:08:14

as soon as an art form becomes obsolete

1:08:16

and is replaced by something quote-unquote better what

1:08:18

the inherent flaws in the previous version become

1:08:21

recreated in the new art form. So as

1:08:23

soon as film photography, grain used to be

1:08:25

a liability in film photography when it first

1:08:27

began. And as soon as we got digital

1:08:29

cameras, all we wanted to do was try

1:08:32

to make them look like film photos. As

1:08:34

soon as we got digital cameras, we were

1:08:36

manually inserting grain. We used to record music

1:08:38

to tape and the hiss of the tape

1:08:41

and the click of the tape was a

1:08:43

liability. And as soon as we started

1:08:45

recording things digitally, we were re-adding in

1:08:47

the his and the click of the

1:08:49

tape. with film, we used to build

1:08:51

sets, and we used to have one

1:08:53

stationary camera, and as soon as we

1:08:55

could do it realistically, I think, what

1:08:57

you're expressing is that desire to

1:08:59

see what we used, like, is

1:09:01

to reenact those old flaws onto

1:09:03

the new art, because it's what, it

1:09:05

feels like effort, it makes it feel

1:09:08

more real. Like, ultimately, the quest to

1:09:10

make things more... like perfect looking just

1:09:12

puts us in the uncanny valley whereas

1:09:14

being able to see film grain being

1:09:16

able to hear the hiss of tape

1:09:18

being able to know definitively that we're

1:09:21

on a set that's what makes it

1:09:23

human that's what makes it not feel

1:09:25

like it was created by generative AI

1:09:27

it's what makes it feel like it

1:09:29

was created by generative AI it's what

1:09:31

makes it feel human is because we

1:09:33

can see the human beings made it

1:09:35

and as a person who's like a

1:09:38

lifelong trihard I'm obsessed with seeing Like,

1:09:40

oh, you didn't even have to try

1:09:42

to do that, okay? Like, I want to

1:09:44

see someone who at the end of the

1:09:46

dance number, like in Westside Story, there's so

1:09:48

many scenes where at the end of when

1:09:50

they're done dancing, everyone's like panting and sweating.

1:09:52

Yeah, like, that is cool. Like, I know

1:09:54

that took a bunch of takes, and I

1:09:56

know it took a bunch of effort, and

1:09:58

I know it took hours. rehearsal and like

1:10:01

that's what I want like I want proof

1:10:03

that this happened and that it was people

1:10:05

who made it and it wasn't automatons and

1:10:07

it wasn't computer generated like worth so especially

1:10:10

now we are starving for that yeah we fucking

1:10:12

are and it's so interesting I don't know

1:10:14

what your feelings were on the wicked movie

1:10:16

but I am obsessed with it and I'm

1:10:19

obsessed with the effort every I'm just obsessed

1:10:21

with effort as well I'm the exact same

1:10:23

fucking person as you like that like I

1:10:25

just that whole, I watched so many behind-the-scenes

1:10:27

things like John Chu talking about how he,

1:10:30

not only did he plant all of those

1:10:32

tulips, he waited three harvests to use them

1:10:34

because for them to be the appropriate height

1:10:36

they needed to be, you know, and like,

1:10:38

I just think that we are, you know,

1:10:41

fingers crossed, I know that like, you know,

1:10:43

the money is falling out of the movie

1:10:45

industry, like there's a hole in the middle

1:10:47

of it, but like... I think we are

1:10:50

going to see a re-emergence of practical effects

1:10:52

in the next couple of years. Like if

1:10:54

you think about the Barbie movie and the

1:10:57

wicked movie, like I think I just hope,

1:10:59

like movies don't need to be like, you

1:11:01

know, $350 million or whatever in order to

1:11:03

be practical. We can just paint some sets again,

1:11:05

you know? I mean I really just this is

1:11:07

kind of my what keeps me going in my

1:11:09

heart as I think the same thing is going

1:11:11

to happen with art that's what happened like with

1:11:13

food like you know how you have to pay

1:11:16

extra for organic food I think that's what's going

1:11:18

to happen with art where like there's going to

1:11:20

be a bunch of AI slop that's pushed out

1:11:22

into the world but we're still going to make

1:11:24

We're still going to do stuff as people. And

1:11:26

I think that maybe there will be a premium

1:11:28

in terms of cost on what that costs. Hey,

1:11:30

do you want to see stuff that was made

1:11:33

by people? Hey, do you want to see stuff

1:11:35

that looks human? It's going to cost you 25%

1:11:37

more because it's organic. Like that's my kind

1:11:39

of consolation. It's not like the ideal outcome. But

1:11:41

I don't think there's any way to stop like

1:11:44

all of this like. Yeah, just like AI

1:11:46

generated crap from being pumped out because it's

1:11:48

cheap to free. But I do think that

1:11:50

you can't stop people from making art and

1:11:52

you can't stop humans from wanting to see

1:11:54

art made by humans. And I think there

1:11:56

are plenty of, just as there are plenty

1:11:58

of people who read terrible books. Like, they

1:12:00

read terrible books that were written, like, by

1:12:02

someone just turning them out, like, one a

1:12:04

day. But people still want literature, and they

1:12:07

still buy it, and they're still a market

1:12:09

for it. And ultimately, the people who don't

1:12:11

care what they consume is that we were

1:12:13

never gonna appeal to them anyway. I think

1:12:15

the same thing is gonna be true of

1:12:17

music and of movies, like, especially, obviously live

1:12:19

theaters not going anywhere for a while, like,

1:12:22

we can't replace that with robots yet. And

1:12:24

so I do think that that's what I

1:12:26

do I agree that there's going to be

1:12:28

a re-emergence of like things that feel deeply

1:12:31

human I think that's going to become a

1:12:33

status symbol is consuming things that are in

1:12:35

the digital world doing things virtually doing things

1:12:37

with the help of AI it's going

1:12:39

to become kind of gosh I think and

1:12:42

hope it'll become a thing. I'm with you

1:12:44

and the thing is that these frameworks already

1:12:46

exist right like theater already costs a lot

1:12:49

of money and like going to the cinema

1:12:51

is fucking expensive like whatever like whatever but

1:12:53

like you know, it's the branding that

1:12:55

will change. Like nothing will functionally

1:12:57

change, like it will still cost

1:13:00

a hundred and fifty quid to go

1:13:02

to a Broadway musical. But yeah, I

1:13:04

think you're right, the messaging is about

1:13:06

to change in a big way. Yeah, I

1:13:08

just, I really, I see it a

1:13:10

lot, I see it especially with it.

1:13:13

I mean, I'm Gen Z, I guess,

1:13:15

technically. People are talking about how with

1:13:17

Gen Alpha, the generation younger than me,

1:13:19

it's going to become a status symbol

1:13:21

to not have a digital footprint. And

1:13:24

I think that's all true. Everything related

1:13:26

to being online, to being on social

1:13:28

media, to kind of communing with the

1:13:30

digital realm, is going to become a

1:13:33

thing that's considered not cool. I think

1:13:35

it'll be cool to be like, oh

1:13:37

yeah, I hang out with my friends

1:13:39

in the real world. Yeah, I mean that

1:13:41

certainly like I have Jen off a Jen

1:13:43

off a Jen on nephew and niece and

1:13:46

that seems to be the way they're going

1:13:48

like they don't zero percent post like they

1:13:50

post a couple of things but what's so

1:13:52

reassuring is they post exactly what I used

1:13:54

to post when I was their age which

1:13:57

is like five photos of their bad house

1:13:59

party and they don't post again for

1:14:01

a year. You know? And that's the

1:14:03

way that's, that's what social media is.

1:14:05

I'm on pixel fed now, which is

1:14:07

like the new, the new old Instagram

1:14:09

vibe. Not very many people around it,

1:14:11

but the way it functions is very

1:14:13

similar to the way Instagram used to

1:14:16

function. Like everyone who's on there is

1:14:18

just posting pictures of like a sunset

1:14:20

or like a selfie or like their

1:14:22

coffee. Like there's no celebrities on there.

1:14:24

Like you just are posting for your

1:14:26

posting for yourself. And I really do

1:14:28

hope that that becomes the new wave.

1:14:30

I mean, I think because of like,

1:14:32

you know, what's going on, obviously, with

1:14:34

the American government trying to monopolize the

1:14:36

way we communicate. Like I think people

1:14:39

are just gonna, people don't, people hate

1:14:41

those guys so much that I really

1:14:43

do. People hate those guys so much

1:14:45

that I really do think like the

1:14:47

usage of their apps is going to

1:14:49

fall out of spite. Like Twitter already

1:14:51

is losing users by the millions. Oh,

1:14:53

I don't want to use anything you

1:14:55

own. I'm married to a graphic designer

1:14:57

and so the one thing I have

1:15:00

to add is that like whenever he

1:15:02

sees incredible type design in the world

1:15:04

he just says no one told me

1:15:06

it was typography Sunday. When I watched

1:15:08

the end credits of this movie I

1:15:10

said out loud to myself no one

1:15:12

told me it was typography Sunday. Because

1:15:14

those end credits are gorgeous. Again, not

1:15:16

a detail was spared. This was from

1:15:18

top to bottom. They thought through everything.

1:15:21

They thought through every motherfucking thing and

1:15:23

I'm so grateful for them for doing

1:15:25

it. I'm so grateful to you for

1:15:27

coming on this podcast. Jansen McRae, can

1:15:29

you tell us you're mostly English and

1:15:31

sometimes Australian listeners, what's next from you?

1:15:33

New music is coming. New music is

1:15:35

on the way sooner than you think

1:15:37

shows even could be happening. Who's to

1:15:39

say? Especially if you live in the

1:15:41

UK and Ireland. Keep an. Yes! You

1:15:44

know, who knows when that'll be? Who

1:15:46

knows? I couldn't say, but it could

1:15:48

be soon. Yeah, the stuff is coming.

1:15:50

You can follow me on. I also

1:15:52

had a great jam to white boy

1:15:54

today. Even though- That's a- That's a-

1:15:56

That's a- And describes me on YouTube.

1:15:58

I'm trying to get my YouTube following

1:16:00

up now. Oh yeah, do that. I'll

1:16:02

do that. And like, and if anyone,

1:16:05

you know, my favorite of your songs,

1:16:07

I think Massachusetts is the most beautiful,

1:16:09

beautiful song. And I also love my

1:16:11

ego dies at the end. And I

1:16:13

also had a great jam to white

1:16:15

boy today, even though- That's a deeper

1:16:17

cut. It is, but it's like there's

1:16:19

something about your intonation specifically on that

1:16:21

song that's so Tracy Chapman core to

1:16:23

me. Oh, thank you. It's like the

1:16:25

tone of your voice or something. Is

1:16:28

that like an intentional riff? I mean,

1:16:30

I steal from a few different people.

1:16:32

I actually just the festival that I

1:16:34

was playing this past weekend was for

1:16:36

Brandy Carlyle. I steal Brandy Carlyle's voice

1:16:38

when I can. Katie Gavin, the lead

1:16:40

singer of Moona, I steal her voice.

1:16:42

their vocal inflections and tone the most.

1:16:44

And you're, you've done like a feedy

1:16:46

bridger is sort of kind of a

1:16:49

parody, kind of a parody, which is,

1:16:51

I love when things sit in that

1:16:53

place of like, this is kind of

1:16:55

a parody, but it's also not. Well,

1:16:57

see, I definitely started that way and

1:16:59

then like when it... That was like

1:17:01

my first time going viral and when

1:17:03

it went viral like in my team

1:17:05

and I were discussing what we were

1:17:07

going to do with it. It was

1:17:09

very much like this can't literally like

1:17:12

it has to be a you song

1:17:14

like it started as a fever parody

1:17:16

and now we put it out it

1:17:18

has to be you. I was like

1:17:20

no I get I don't want to

1:17:22

I don't want to be a parody

1:17:24

artist. I love your stuff and I

1:17:26

love talking to you and I hope

1:17:28

you'll come back on the podcast again

1:17:30

soon. You got it.