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Hey, I'm Ryan Reynolds. Recently, I asked

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to inflation. They said yes. And then

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three month plan only. Taxes and fees extra. Speed slower above 40

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gigabytes of detail. Hello

0:33

there. As you can see, we have yet

0:35

another off season episode of sentimental garbage because

0:37

I simply couldn't resist weighing

0:40

in on Wicked. While I'm

0:42

here, though, I really wanted to draw

0:44

your attention to a very, very, very

0:46

exciting initiative, I suppose you could call

0:48

it. We are doing within the mental garbage and something

0:50

I've never done before and something

0:52

that's been requested since the early days. We

0:55

are finally launching merch. T-shirts,

0:59

totes, crop tops,

1:02

sweatshirts. We're doing them and

1:04

we are not only doing them, we are

1:06

doing them in support of War Child, a

1:08

charity that is driven by a single goal,

1:11

which is ensuring a safe future for every

1:13

child affected by war. Now,

1:15

I don't need to tell you why now is an

1:17

extremely timely time to be supporting

1:19

a charity like War Child. But if

1:21

you want to get someone in your

1:23

life, a podcast fan, a great Christmas

1:26

gift that is stunningly designed and also

1:28

help an amazing cause, please

1:30

get to everpress.com/War Child X

1:32

sentimental garbage. We are, yeah,

1:35

t-shirts, sweatshirts, huge,

1:37

huge tote bags that you could

1:39

do the entire weekly shopping in and crop

1:42

tops. And just in case you're driving or

1:44

perhaps you're on the tube, these are the

1:46

most stunningly designed things. Gavin

1:48

actually designed them. I

1:51

know you guys have been listening to me be an

1:53

absolute wife guy for years and talking

1:55

about how Gavin's an amazing designer and

1:57

amazing artist. But now you can finally see for

1:59

yourself. But to give you a visual

2:02

picture for those of you on the tube and who don't

2:04

have internet, it's kind of like

2:06

on the front is like on the on the

2:09

breast pocket there's this beautiful red heart with an

2:11

SG in it, which I love because it kind

2:13

of looks like something from a deck of playing

2:15

cards. But on the back

2:17

it says sentimental garbage, feeling

2:20

the most since 2018. And

2:23

then there is a drawing of a

2:25

dog, which is my dog, and

2:27

some beautiful floral illustrations. It's

2:29

just so it's just the perfect

2:32

thing. It's just I one of the reason

2:34

I held off on merch for so long

2:36

was that I couldn't stand the idea of

2:38

like sort of cheap, bad

2:41

looking stuff that would just exist

2:44

forever. And

2:46

what I love about dealing with everpress is

2:48

that they only print as many that are ordered

2:50

so to minimize waste as much as possible.

2:53

So anyway, I'm talking too much. Please

2:55

go to everpress.com/war child X sentimental

2:58

garbage to support this lovely cause and

3:00

get someone a lovely Christmas gift or

3:02

maybe something for yourself. And

3:04

also while I have you here, we

3:07

are doing a live show in February. I

3:10

don't have the date in front of me, but it will be in the

3:12

show notes and I'd love to see you there.

3:15

Okay, on with the show. Hello

3:23

and welcome to sentimental garbage, the podcast where

3:25

you'll hang with the right cohorts and be

3:27

good at sports. My name is Caroline O'Donohue

3:29

and this week I've really been holding space

3:31

for the lyrics of Defying Gravity. And

3:34

joining me is the wickedly talented Adele

3:37

D'Zine. Hello. It's

3:39

not Adele D'Zine, it's Tash Hodgson. What

3:42

a disappointment. I never imagined how much

3:44

have you gotten Adele D'Zine for this

3:46

podcast. It's crazy that

3:48

wicked has two memes that

3:51

will last forever now. Is that one? Oh, I'm

3:53

talented Adele D'Zine. Holding space for the lyrics of

3:55

Defying Gravity. You know what? The

3:57

life finds a way. Life finds a way. Do you

3:59

want to... It occurred to me this morning because to

4:02

let the listeners in on what kind of day we've

4:04

been having, we met at 10am outside the Lechter Square

4:06

view. Already I'm memorizing

4:08

the stage. Do you remember when? This morning.

4:11

Have we met at 10am? And on the way

4:14

in when I was sort of going through my

4:16

notes and stuff, it occurred to me, I was

4:18

like, I'm going to the cinema with Tash and

4:20

then I'm gonna do a podcast about it but

4:22

this is really quite a get. I

4:26

kind of forgot that I was like, oh it makes

4:28

sense to do a musical episode with my friend

4:30

who's in musicals and I was

4:32

like, this is an Olivier Award

4:34

winning playwright and star of Operation

4:37

Mincemeat, soon to be Broadway star.

4:39

It's true. There's literally, there's quite

4:41

literally no denying that. It is a get. Well

4:43

done. My fee is only half

4:45

what it would usually be. Just

4:48

a couple more zeros and I'll see you. Nuts.

4:53

We saw the movie just one hour ago.

4:56

We broke for Ramon and then we came right in

4:59

here. We broke during the film. We broke and then

5:01

we saw Ramon and then we came here. What

5:04

are our thoughts? I mean, wait, is it

5:06

too early to be like here's the review? We just

5:08

dive straight in maybe. Or maybe we need to talk

5:10

up to how we got here. How we got here.

5:12

As a people, as a nation, as two

5:14

powerful women who are friends despite any

5:17

political leanings or

5:19

disagrees we have. Who can say if we've

5:21

been changed for the better? All

5:23

I know is I've been changed. Fuck.

5:28

Sorry, it's all over the place, guys. There's too much. First

5:31

of all, I think we can

5:33

do like overview thoughts of big

5:35

thoughts, read the movie and then I think

5:37

you're right. I think we need to go

5:39

back. Because I think both for us as

5:41

friends and colleagues and professionals and also for

5:44

the musical, like it's a really interesting musical

5:46

in that it's a musical that's based on

5:48

it's a film based on a musical based

5:50

on a book. Yes. Based

5:52

on a different book. Do you mean it's like you've got

5:54

the Wizard of Oz and then you've got the Wicked, the

5:57

story of the which the original book that that sort

5:59

of. takes the story from and then

6:02

you've got the stage production and then you

6:04

have this movie. So a Russian nesting dolls

6:06

of culture. Yeah, it's really, I think imagine

6:08

for like both us as storytellers ourselves and

6:10

yes I want it, I like it, I

6:13

like it, whatever. You're going to drop

6:15

it in. But like, you know, for people, particularly for, yeah,

6:17

for me as the one who writes musicals and

6:19

you writes for the screen and write books and stuff, like everything's

6:22

in there. Like it was a book. It

6:24

was a musical. It like it now is

6:26

a movie and that's and to translate that

6:29

from a story that we all know, which is that of

6:31

the Wicked Witch and and with it was, it's like, how

6:33

amazing, like it's so many layers of this. This mattress just goes

6:36

on and on and on. And we're just like sleeping on the

6:38

death of it. That

6:40

is the best way of putting it. Yeah,

6:42

I feel so soft for the for the

6:44

heft of the narrative glory that

6:46

sits on top of this film like, oh, I

6:48

could doze in this little fucking bed forever. And

6:51

it's well because like, again, so again, to go

6:53

back to the very first nesting doll, Wizard of

6:55

Oz is a book, the Wizard of Oz then

6:57

in 1939 or whatever becomes the Wizard of

7:01

Oz with Judy Garland that we all know and

7:03

love. And then the, you know, the Wicked comes

7:05

later and everything. But like, it really

7:07

struck me when I was leaving the

7:10

theater of being like, oh, there will be young

7:12

people going to see this who've never seen the

7:14

Wizard of Oz. Like and like

7:16

probably quite a lot of young people

7:18

now, like whose first sort of introduction

7:21

to this story is going to be the story

7:23

of the witches of the Wizard of Oz, not

7:25

the story of Dorothy Gale and Toto and that

7:27

and that adventure. And like, yeah, like what what

7:30

what is watching this movie like as as like

7:32

as free of context? Can you is it possible

7:35

to do that? And like, should you like should

7:37

there be like you're not allowed a ticket unless

7:39

you seen as you see the Wizard of Oz

7:41

and understand like the counter narrative? But do you

7:43

think equally do you need to? Obviously, you have

7:45

that dramatic prologue at the beginning where it's like

7:49

Glinda just being like, oh, you know, she's dead and

7:51

there's a little human girl who threw a bucket of

7:53

water on her and it's all we all know what

7:55

she's talking about. And you also got a little glimpse

7:57

like on the railroad right at the top. You saw

8:00

the Gedorothy and the Tin Man. and yeah I should

8:02

say are we gonna be quite spoilery do we mind?

8:04

Yes I think so. I feel like you kind of

8:06

have to don't you? You have to. Like go watch

8:08

it then listen to us. Yeah this is for spoilers.

8:10

Yeah we're doing this for us. This is mostly for

8:12

us. That's fine. For

8:14

everyone who just wants to sit with their fat pal

8:16

and talk about how good the wicked movie was this

8:18

is gonna be for you. I just

8:22

loved it so much. I loved it

8:24

so much and like and having

8:26

that thought throughout about the original Wizard of

8:28

Oz and that kind of legacy it has

8:30

both as like a kind of a it

8:33

has a kind of queer classic sort of

8:35

like the subtext of it is quite like

8:37

almost like a cliche the whole you know

8:40

Friends of Dorothy or whatever and

8:42

the idea that this will be a

8:44

movie and I think it's good enough to be this

8:46

kind of movie that will be on TV in 30

8:48

years on Christmas Day. Yeah you want to be like

8:50

you want to be like I want to be old

8:52

and for the kids to be like oh we're not

8:55

gonna watch Wicked again. Yeah. Like it's such an old

8:57

movie like it's a classic. It's a grand. You watch

8:59

Ariana Grande before she it was all

9:01

found out about it years later like oh

9:03

my god like she's just everyone's so wonderful

9:06

in it. Just so beautiful. Anyway

9:08

but like yeah I yeah and

9:11

it's really strange to go back and think I because

9:13

I remember watching the Wizard of Oz for the first

9:15

time and like that moment where it turns from black

9:18

and white into technology steps into Oz and it's technicolor

9:20

like even though we didn't grow up

9:22

with and I think that's the kind of thing

9:24

like because like I think people who were adults

9:26

watching the Wizard of Oz for the first time

9:28

many of those people being like we grew up

9:30

with black and white movies and this is this

9:32

genuine spectacle for us like you don't understand and

9:35

yet and I can imagine them having conversations like

9:37

will kids understand how magical like that jump from

9:39

black and white to colour is but like what

9:41

as a kid who'd only drawn up with colour

9:43

stuff that was it was still so magical when

9:45

she suddenly you saw those ruby slippers step out

9:47

from the house and all of us was was

9:49

suddenly in technical I think like there's

9:52

just oh god I'm not not

9:54

to be too ariana or cindia by this but

9:56

I feel like oh this is gonna be a

9:58

very ariana very ariana and I will hold your

10:01

massive nail extensions. Please just take my claw. The

10:05

rest of our lives. But

10:07

like, I think it's really testament, like

10:10

if you can create that feeling of like, that

10:13

feeling of, oh my God, it's in beautiful

10:15

Technicolor. And I felt that feeling of, oh

10:17

my God, it's in beautiful Technicolor, watching the

10:19

Wicked movie. When that Wicked, like

10:21

when the typography came up in that

10:23

old, it's like beautiful old Hollywood style.

10:25

Like they know what they're doing. Like

10:27

they know what we wanted to recapture

10:29

was like that feeling of magical, isn't

10:32

cinema magical. And I feel like just

10:34

having that little nod to be like,

10:36

this is how it used to look. It used to

10:38

get though the title is up on the screen in

10:41

beautiful typography. And then you would delve into the story

10:43

and just being like, that's still, it still works. It

10:45

still works. It still works. And like, but still being

10:47

like, and you don't, but it doesn't need to look

10:50

old fashioned. Like everything looked unbelievable.

10:52

So beautiful. So beautiful.

10:54

Those sets were just

10:57

incredible. Like it was,

10:59

and it also, it was like, the

11:02

thing of theater being that like,

11:04

even if you're looking at a really expensive production, you're

11:07

always working in the realm of suspended disbelief. And the

11:09

thing like I've seen the Wicked stage show two or

11:11

three times and like the thing of like, oh yes,

11:13

this man's dressed a little bit like an animal. And

11:15

then we have to fight for his civil rights. That

11:19

old thing. That old thing. And, but

11:21

you were always using kind of your

11:23

imagination. And I think that, well,

11:25

that's like, that's where theater is, I think for

11:27

me, like that's why it's really wonderful as a,

11:29

as like a medium because like it's that magical

11:31

thing of you enter into a contract

11:33

with the audience to go, we're going to show you

11:35

a version of this, which isn't real. And you're going

11:37

to make it real with what you see in your

11:40

head and like, that is what's so amazing about a

11:42

theater and like you can take and like kind of

11:44

just activating a contract between an audience member and a

11:46

stage person on stage to be like, we know this,

11:48

you know, this isn't a goat. We know it's not

11:50

a goat, but for the next two and a half

11:52

hours, this is a girl. We're going to fight for

11:54

civil rights and people, and you will cry and you

11:56

will. And like that is what you don't have in

11:58

cinema. You know, certainly. You don't have that contract. There's

12:00

not that thing of going, what's gonna

12:03

be beautiful about this is we're gonna

12:05

transform these disparate parts into a story

12:08

right here in the bar. And because it's on

12:10

a screen, and that screen means that we know

12:12

those, I think something at

12:14

the heart of the theater audience contract is

12:16

that is on a very low level, a

12:18

kernel of, I don't wanna hurt those people's

12:20

feelings. Do you? And

12:24

you know what, we're grateful for that. Those people.

12:26

Some people wanna hurt our feelings. That

12:29

is not a universal feeling. But the

12:31

screen, the separation, the beautiful people who are much

12:33

more famous and rich than you, create

12:36

so many opportunities for doubt and fuck

12:38

this. And like, what's so interesting to

12:40

me as well is like, I

12:43

mean, I want this episode to be something that

12:46

people can return to in 50 years when they're

12:48

watching Wicked on TV. It's the hologram version of

12:50

us. Yes. We've gotten hold of it. Yes, this

12:52

episode exists in a glass tube in a museum

12:54

and you pull it out and a hologram comes

12:56

out. There are no trees, but there are the

12:58

holograms. And isn't that the true nature?

13:00

I know. And like the memes

13:03

and the kind

13:05

of funny internet humor around the Wicked press tour

13:07

will have been completely gone. That'll be in the

13:09

dust. That will be in the dust. No one

13:11

will remember that. But I think we should take

13:13

one minute to talk about how

13:16

this film has been promoted for what feels

13:18

like three years. I know there's poor performers,

13:20

honestly. I feel like they must be going

13:22

out of their absolute trees. But like, it

13:25

really has worked. Like, I feel like there is not

13:27

a single person in the world who cannot see this.

13:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like every product, every item

13:32

in the world. It was a Wicked version. In

13:34

the ad before Wicked, it was two Google

13:37

Pixel phones. One was pink and one was

13:39

green. Yeah, and they signed it for On

13:41

Gravity. We were not happy about it. Like,

13:43

I've paid upwards of 10

13:45

pounds today to watch Aaron

13:47

Agrada's. Yeah, not two phones, pretending. Not

13:49

two phones. Whatever creative

13:52

decision, they decided to not cast them as phones

13:54

in the movie and that was a good

13:56

one, in my opinion. But something that's been coming

13:58

up, particularly in the Ariana Grande. and Cynthia

14:00

Rivo interviews is

14:02

the sort of like, the way

14:05

they keep crying, the way they

14:07

are so unbelievably sincere, and the

14:09

way the internet has reacted to

14:11

that sincerity, has

14:13

made me, literally has made me think, oh, I got about a year

14:15

left of this. I

14:18

got about a year left of caring too

14:20

much about dumb shit and crying on mic.

14:24

And then it's out, I gotta find something new.

14:27

What is the new, do you think you'll be

14:29

like, could you care too much about the crying?

14:31

Or you're like, I hate the crying. No, I

14:33

just see myself in the crying. Oh, you see

14:36

yourself in the crying. I see like what they

14:38

are doing, like holding hands and like her holding

14:40

her little claw and saying things like, people

14:42

online have really been holding space through the

14:44

lyrics. And then Cynthia just

14:47

like grabbing her chest and saying, I didn't know

14:49

they were doing that. Please

14:52

check out the meme if no one's seen it.

14:54

But like, I was like, oh yeah, like people

14:57

on some, it's like, it feels like a drag

14:59

version of what I do in this podcast. I'm

15:01

just like saying nonsense about like, oh,

15:03

you're not, about bullshit. No,

15:07

because I think it is, I think basically they

15:09

are, I will not speak

15:11

ill of either of these beautiful women, obviously, but

15:13

I feel like you are incredibly like articulate, like getting

15:15

to the point of why you wish to grab the

15:18

claw. I think understanding the motive of the claw

15:20

is absolutely crucial. Without the motive of the

15:23

claw, it is simply a mad claw

15:25

grab. But I never feel like you, I

15:28

grab a claw unwittingly. No,

15:30

that's true. I always mean it when I grab a claw.

15:32

You really explain carefully why you must grab the claw. I

15:35

think for those girls, like bless them, they've been answering

15:37

the same question about why

15:40

divine gravity is good

15:42

for like four years now. And like the holidays are

15:44

out of answers. They're just like, I don't, it is

15:46

not, I hate it. And they're so tired. They're so

15:48

tired. And all the outfits, are you kidding me? They're

15:50

probably chafing. They look

15:53

pretty heavy, like, oh my God. Like,

15:55

I don't, they must've seen

15:57

it so many times. I mean, I could watch obviously this film

15:59

every day now. the rest of my life. Yeah

16:02

but it really reminds me because we've had,

16:04

you know, you've been on

16:06

this podcast before talking about Chicago.

16:08

The best film ever made. And

16:11

something we spoke about on that

16:13

podcast is that something we

16:15

both had very clear memories of was

16:18

the press campaign of Chicago. About how

16:20

the Chicago subtitle, they're working so hard

16:22

over here. Because

16:24

like I can just, I can see, if

16:26

I can see the Jones and her practice

16:29

outfit, I can see Richard Gure teaching himself

16:31

how to tap dance. And it really struck

16:33

me about like two massive movie musical failures

16:35

recently which were that Batman musical. Oh yeah,

16:38

don't put French in the title,

16:41

that's mine. Don't do that. But

16:44

also the Mean Girls

16:46

musical. And in both senses there was a

16:48

sense that like we can trick the audience

16:50

into coming to a musical. And

16:53

what they failed to understand and what Wicked

16:55

and Chicago both understood is that like there's

16:57

nothing more embarrassingly sincere than musical theatre. And

16:59

so we must come out full-throated

17:02

like we're working so hard we're crying

17:04

so much. We're crying so much. We're

17:06

grabbing every part of each other because

17:09

we love this so much. I think that's true. And I think like,

17:12

and I think you have to kind of

17:14

respect it because it's incredibly difficult. It's so

17:16

hard to do. Like they will

17:18

have worked, they have, you know, both worked incredibly hard.

17:21

And like as Chicago, just like you can see like

17:23

they want it to be good so much. And like

17:25

everyone's working so hard as you say like when you

17:27

go into a theatre you're like, God, these guys are

17:29

working hard. Please give them a little clap at the

17:31

end. Like if only out of embarrassment. And

17:34

sometimes that is why. Whereas I

17:37

think yeah, people, I think people

17:39

are very understandably, you

17:41

know, we have this conversation all the time at musical theatre like, do

17:44

people hate musical theatre or do they just hate

17:46

people who showcase their feelings so, so sincerely and

17:48

earnestly. And it's okay to hate that. It's often

17:50

bad but like if it's done well, like it's

17:53

just so magical. It is just so magical to

17:55

when it's when it's done with like such

17:58

care and professionalism and preciseness and the songs are

18:00

so good and everyone's putting together like people say

18:02

about like musical that it's like the most collaborative

18:04

medium in that you have so many sets of

18:06

skills for it not to be crap and if

18:08

any of the sets of skills are crap everything

18:10

else is pulled down yeah like there is no

18:12

well it's you know raise on each other's shoulders

18:14

like no there is a drop of poison in

18:16

any element of musical theater you got one lighting

18:19

guy who's just not going to be phoning it

18:21

in you know one sound guy who doesn't fucking

18:23

put the mic up at the right time yeah

18:25

one costume that the Ripway doesn't quite work the

18:27

set you know any of it it's

18:29

all such on a fucking knife edge of

18:31

embarrassment as it is yeah one little slip

18:34

and the whole thing kind of falls apart

18:36

so like you can see why people just

18:38

go fuck this I just feel like yeah

18:40

with this with this movie with Chicago with

18:44

with like the classic movie musicals I

18:47

feel like what's really good about wicked

18:49

as a starting point for a movie is

18:51

that it sits so cleanly into a different

18:54

world which which I think is always the best

18:56

way where plays for a musical to sit and

18:58

maybe musicals like yeah I discussed if you're not

19:00

if you're not listen to the Chicago episode of

19:03

the podcast it's a great episode it's a lovely

19:05

episode but we talked quite a lot about how

19:07

what's what's it's it for me Chicago is so

19:09

successful because a good movie musical I

19:11

think it most it's most

19:13

likely to succeed if it exists in a

19:15

heightened state of reality anyway because musicals are

19:18

and by their very nature heightened yeah embarrassing

19:20

state of reality and I think it's really

19:22

hard for musicals the movie musicals to exist

19:24

not in that place I think for that

19:27

reason I think West Side

19:29

Story though I think it is a beautiful movie I

19:32

still kind of get embarrassed it's it feels

19:34

silly I don't like it very much myself

19:36

I think it's I think it's this opening

19:38

and like the set pieces are

19:40

so phenomenal but it's just really

19:42

hard to have that same like

19:44

kind of kitchen sink realism alongside

19:48

people of person in this long like you know

19:50

I'm Maria Jets vs Sharks man it's never it's

19:52

never not ridiculous I'm like on stage it doesn't

19:54

matter because everyone's fucking dancing it's a stage and

19:56

like you can get away with it but like

19:59

on a screen I feel like yeah Wicked set

20:01

itself up and one reason such a smart Like

20:04

idea to begin with in that it exists not

20:06

only like in a heightened world in that like

20:09

Oz itself is a crazy Well, there's a world

20:11

we already know because of the Wizard of Oz

20:13

like it's not embarrassing that world because we watched

20:15

it growing up We're not scared of it. We're not

20:18

it is like it's embarrassing It's like firmly in the

20:20

firmament of sort of like 20th century cultural history Yeah

20:22

anything it will never go away never die and like

20:24

you know those characters really well and like you know

20:26

the shapes of the costumes what it's supposed to look

20:29

like and like it kind of sits and that again

20:31

quite familiar kind of sexy cogs

20:33

and velvet And

20:36

not quite steampunk not quite steampunk like yes just

20:38

to the sort of like that's the sexy cousin

20:40

of steampunk where it's like Everything's cogs, but nothing's

20:43

oil. Oh my

20:45

god Wow, there's

20:47

not a there's not a sully drag to be seen.

20:49

It's just like glinting Jewelry everything

20:51

is cogs, but nothing is oil That's

20:55

big. I might have to clutch the claw If

20:59

you're clutching the claw right now, that's correct

21:04

But like and and that thing the rendering of

21:06

this space Oz which is like again on the

21:08

stage show Exists mostly in your imagination right in

21:10

the same way that lame is it's just a

21:13

bundle of chairs on stage for most of it

21:15

Yeah, and and like if

21:17

you're looking at the original film of Oz

21:19

obviously There's like the iconic scenes of you

21:21

know Munchkin land and the

21:24

yellow brick road and puppies and you know

21:26

But they are it is very much like

21:28

you could if you bang a door you

21:30

could the scenery is what like you know

21:32

I mean, but like it's still beautiful because

21:34

it exists in that beautiful tradition of painted

21:36

scenery. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, the kind of old-eyed

21:38

old Hollywood of yeah, and that in itself

21:40

is romantic. Yeah, but This

21:43

Oz is just like I

21:45

can't believe how fucking And

21:49

not in like a gross CGI way

21:52

Beautiful there is some CGI but like

21:54

beautiful sets. Yeah, I think also just

21:56

like it's beautiful sets. It's beautiful costume

22:00

And like, and as, and like, as

22:02

we sort of have said, like, it's

22:04

really does not lean away from this

22:06

is, this has come from theatre, like

22:08

the opening sequence of, of good news.

22:11

There's so much choreography and like this, there's like a

22:13

dance in the square and like, you know, people like

22:15

throw in things like people throw in flower on the,

22:17

you know, that classic thing of like, and

22:20

I think just from the very beginning, it

22:22

says, this is a big fucking

22:24

musical, like, it is not, we don't know the

22:26

characters yet, we don't really know anything, it's just,

22:28

it's just, it's

22:30

just villages celebrating in a way

22:33

that like, could be very embarrassing. And like, they could

22:35

have just been like, you know, let's get to Glinda,

22:37

let's get to the stuff that we know, but like,

22:39

they really hang on it, because they want, they want

22:41

to start their store being like, everything in this movie

22:44

is going to be perfect. Like, yeah, like

22:46

every step, every like you cannot touch

22:48

this for how, how

22:50

much we're going to showcase every discipline, it's like

22:53

the discipline of dance, the discipline of costume, the

22:55

discipline of big videography, like the discipline of like,

22:58

like every, it just feels like it's like

23:00

fucking Olympics, man. And it's just tense across

23:02

the board. Like, I just don't see

23:04

how you could not even if

23:06

you don't like musical theatre or don't like, you

23:08

know, what a fantasy story is coming out of

23:10

that not being like, I understand what these disciplines

23:12

are for now. I understand why they intersect, I

23:14

understand why people dedicate their lives to these

23:17

skills. Gosh, wow. Wow.

23:20

I feel like I feel like

23:22

we are a biased audience. Oh,

23:24

yeah. Obviously, we are people who

23:27

have also dedicated our lives to

23:29

this sort of business and telling

23:31

of these stories and like creating

23:34

spectacle and emotion and love and joy and the rest of it.

23:36

But like, I really I

23:38

it's I think it's you know, it's been a hard

23:40

it's been a hard all year for everyone. And I

23:43

really do think regardless of how what a tangible

23:46

effect, big huge

23:48

creations like this have on like, ultimately,

23:50

the mood of general populace. You can

23:52

you do feel like we have

23:54

to this is what we have to

23:56

keep making like you have to give this level of

24:00

sort of seriousness to these disciplines to

24:02

create these spectacles because like so many

24:04

people Follow this for their spark

24:06

of joy in their lives like pull them out of

24:08

it. I still have like quite quite no I'm doing

24:10

quite quickly Like

24:14

I feel like that's how that's how I felt

24:17

Particularly like you know for a personal perspective like I

24:19

might you know This year has been a crazy year

24:21

for me and like the next year is gonna be

24:24

is looking You know wonderful but scary and that we're

24:26

taking you know Our show to Broadway and we know

24:28

I've no idea how that's gonna go and like they

24:30

can all feel both very frightening and also very silly

24:33

at the same time being like why am I so

24:35

scared of doing my little silly songs with my

24:37

friends and then you kind of Watch

24:40

something like a huge epic creation like this

24:42

and kind of go This is so many

24:44

people's days and nights and days and nights

24:46

and days and nights of toil and endless

24:49

and it may and you Know the things that inspired me was

24:51

just like I'm just being like, thank you Thank

24:55

you for doing that A

24:59

humble 10 a.m. Audience member. Thank you Yeah

25:04

And like if I may compliment my

25:06

friends even more which is essentially what this podcast

25:09

is for um we

25:12

had this conversation the other day because Operation

25:15

mincemeat, which is a your musical

25:17

and set in one World War two and has

25:20

a Song in it, which

25:22

is a sea shanty that you made up. Yes

25:25

Oh, no What was the name

25:27

of that song? It's called Ceylon boys. It's called Ceylon

25:29

boys It is a

25:31

made-up song that doesn't exist that

25:34

is a supposed sea shanty between

25:36

naval people in the

25:38

Second World War and Recently

25:41

the RNLI who are the

25:43

volunteer lifeboat Association? Yeah, they

25:45

they have their own little

25:47

private choir and the

25:50

volunteer choir and And

25:53

for their remembrance remembrance day you

25:55

can say no, I'm enjoying

25:57

I much prefer. It's very nice to hear Um,

25:59

they They went to Paddington

26:01

with their big display of poppies of

26:04

everybody who had lost their lives

26:06

pulling people out of the sea. Like

26:08

could you think of a more noble

26:11

thing to do than to pull someone out of the ocean who

26:13

was drowning? And like, but

26:15

they chose your song! And like... Yeah,

26:18

and they sang a song to the station. And they

26:20

didn't even tell us, you know what I

26:22

mean? They told us,

26:24

they sent us an email after the fact to be

26:26

like, just so you know, we did this and this

26:29

is the video and like it was

26:31

just the most moving video. Yeah,

26:34

it was really grabbing the claw right now. And

26:36

we're really grabbing the claw guys! And

26:39

the thing that was so emotional about it, because

26:41

when you're in your own world of

26:44

making whatever it is that you make, whether

26:46

it's novels or TV or stage shows or

26:48

whatever, you make arguments

26:50

for why it should exist and why we

26:53

need this kind of story right now, for

26:55

whatever reason we need this kind of story

26:57

right now. But you mostly think

26:59

you're deluding yourself on some level of like, really,

27:01

you're just kind of making up stuff to get

27:03

attention. Yeah, I don't want to get a real

27:05

job. So please let me do this other thing.

27:08

Exactly. And

27:10

then you see the people

27:12

who have chosen this song

27:14

that you wrote as their anthem for what the

27:16

thing that is they do, because what they're good

27:19

at is pulling people out of the ocean. But

27:21

what they're not good at is expressing why it's

27:23

important, but somebody else has and it just was

27:25

one of those moments for me where it's like,

27:28

oh, this is the power of art because it

27:30

expresses things that the people who are going through

27:32

them aren't always able to do. And I

27:34

think of how much, for example,

27:37

everything about abortion rights often goes

27:39

back to people wearing handmaids tail

27:41

costumes. Because we need

27:43

art to create shorthand for emotions we

27:45

can enunciate. And

27:50

I do feel like, and I think to go back

27:52

to holding space for the lyrics of Flying Gravity, like

27:56

there it does feel it like this

27:58

is an important. to be

28:00

telling right now of like how like

28:02

fear and hate mongering are so effective

28:04

in galvanizing people and controlling them. I

28:06

think like when we like that final

28:08

sequence of trying gravity, I think neither

28:10

of us like every single one muscles

28:13

all of our body was tense

28:15

for like the last 15 minutes because it was just so

28:17

magnificent and like the Ariana Grande

28:20

and Simele Vera were so glorious

28:22

but like the choices they made in terms of like

28:25

they added like a kind of hot air balloon. Yeah.

28:28

Sort of fight and like you know we can

28:30

again talk a bit more about like the differences

28:32

between the the the production that's if that's useful

28:34

but like it really just felt like

28:36

you all you wanted to do was fucking fly

28:38

and get out of there and be like and you

28:40

just I think even regardless of

28:43

like it's a commentary on this you know

28:45

racism or immigration or whatever like there's something very base

28:47

and real about being like there

28:50

is danger and you will get out of

28:52

it and I know there

28:54

is danger and you will be brave you know just

28:56

like that thing of that very primal thing of being

28:59

like things will be hard and

29:02

you will find a way to best them

29:04

because that's basically what it's not the song

29:06

is sort of about and I think you

29:08

know that's it's very beautiful.

29:10

I think that we're still coming up with ways to say that.

29:13

Yeah. And I know

29:15

and that we're still we still

29:17

kind of need to hear it and we still react

29:19

so strongly when we do hear it and they're like

29:21

yeah we just sit there completely out

29:23

of my mouth being like this is hard alphabet

29:26

but you will be brave. You

29:29

know I believe in you. I will see you next year

29:31

for the next movie to watch you be brave. I

29:33

will pay this for twice the amount I would yet

29:35

fall out of the film for the second part of

29:38

this movie to watch you be brave to watch you

29:40

be brave. I never get credit for it. No no

29:44

no yeah it's it was really

29:46

it's it's very magnificent. What

29:48

was your first introduction to the wicked

29:50

to the wicked world. Do you

29:53

know I think I just I moved here 13

29:56

years ago. I remember you remember what I

29:58

had my best. So

30:02

yeah, I don't know if anyone, and I said this

30:05

in the haggis book, but I live here because of

30:07

you, because you ran an internship

30:09

for film journalism. What a situation for.

30:11

Thirteen years ago. Yeah, and I was

30:13

like 23 and felt like I was

30:15

the oldest, toughest shit in the biz.

30:19

And yeah, I had an internship for some

30:21

reason that I wasn't allowed to, like I

30:23

was told to run an internship

30:25

being 23 and 90 and like, yeah, I interviewed you

30:27

over the phone. Yeah, you're an island and

30:30

we couldn't really even hear each other.

30:32

No, I don't know. You want some

30:34

old phone somewhere, but we

30:36

had a conversation much like we still do today. And I was

30:38

just like, we got to get this girl. We

30:41

got to get it here. She's the voice of a judge. And

30:45

lo and behold, you are called the

30:47

clock. Give me the

30:49

clock. And

30:56

I mean, yeah, and like I think

30:58

one of my sort of like priorities

31:00

as any person who lives

31:03

in a different country or any even a

31:05

different city who moves to London, it's like,

31:07

well, I'm going to get returns. I'm

31:11

going to show up to the theater at 10 a.m. and

31:13

I'm going to get me some returns. And so the first

31:15

two things I saw were Les Mis

31:18

and Wicked. And then like

31:20

I saw it again, maybe three months later when my

31:22

mum and sister came to visit and

31:24

I've seen it again since then with friends who've been

31:26

visiting. And do you

31:28

feel do you feel like you had the

31:30

same emotional reaction to

31:32

the stage show seeing it for the first time as

31:35

you did to the movie now that sort of having

31:38

sits with it and knowing it better? Do you

31:40

feel like novelty or like experience were sort

31:42

of what? You know what? I

31:44

felt like when I first saw

31:46

it as a stage show, I was full of admiration

31:48

for it. And then I knew nothing about it other

31:50

than it was supposed to be good. And

31:54

I remember losing

31:56

it at the animals stuff. Like

31:59

I was going. And we're going in quite like, you

32:01

know, 21 years old being like, oh,

32:03

it's so cool the way they've done this. Yeah, imagine

32:05

that, but this. Yeah. Oh, and the way they kind

32:07

of trap door Dorothy in the first line opening a

32:09

few seconds, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or maybe do it

32:12

in the second half. I can't remember. I can't remember

32:14

either. But yeah, I think what's really, well,

32:16

just as a sidebar, I think the

32:18

original book that the musical is based

32:20

on is really, I don't know if

32:23

you've read it, but it's incredibly dark,

32:25

quite complicated, like much more of a

32:27

heavy political sort of satire and doesn't

32:30

have anywhere near as much to do with the sort

32:32

of Wizard of Oz movie than the

32:34

stage show does. And I feel like what the

32:36

musical does incredibly well is bring back in Fright

32:38

from the Top, the kind of Dorothy Gale sort

32:40

of like it hooks you in with that stuff.

32:42

And then there's quite a lot of references like

32:45

the Cowderley Lion Cub and the Tin Man

32:47

and the Scarecrow. Kind of one of that's really in

32:49

the original book in the same way. And I think

32:52

it's, I'm very fascinated by it as

32:54

a trans, like how do you make a book

32:56

into a musical and then into a movie? Because

32:58

it's like, I

33:01

think it's a really interesting testament to how different

33:03

mediums require different things with the teller. And

33:06

I think because the book spans lots

33:08

more years and there's like, and Fierro

33:10

is the prince character

33:12

is not this attractive guy. He's like this

33:14

kind of strange prince. And he

33:16

ends up in political exile. And I think

33:18

in a book, you can do a lot

33:20

more kind of many years past. You

33:23

know what I mean? Like you can have a map in the front that we

33:25

love a book with a map. And I can feel

33:28

a lot more, I think you can do epic timescale

33:30

in a way that in theatre, I think it's

33:32

quite hard to do because it's all in theatre,

33:34

it's all forward motion. It's all the present moment.

33:36

And I feel like if you try to do,

33:39

then eight years went by Miss Elphaba, would be

33:41

kind of letting all the air out of the

33:44

balloon. I think they did. And I think the

33:46

book writer, Stephen Schwartz, the musical writer Stephen Schwartz

33:48

and the book writer Winnie Hosman did an amazing

33:50

job of kind of recognizing what

33:53

the difference is between a book and

33:55

a musical and how much

33:57

you have to kind of, I think

33:59

anyway. like truncate that timeline to be like

34:01

you know what it's university then they found a wizard

34:03

and then it's fucking go go go go go in

34:05

a way that i think it

34:08

could have gone quite wrong because like changing a book so

34:11

significantly to make a musical is it's quite a it's

34:14

like a ballsy thing to do yeah um and they do and

34:16

they do change quite a lot but and i tried to research

34:18

kind of like whether

34:20

the original writer of the book and steven schwarz ever

34:22

like had big chats about like plot and story and

34:24

it seems like not really it seems like not

34:27

really there was like we like the idea of

34:29

this witch thing and we wanted to make a

34:31

musical based on that and um but i just

34:33

like they are still true i think to the

34:35

like animal stuff and like the sort of civil

34:37

rights like kind of um mirroring and stuff is

34:39

all there but yeah it's it's very it's very

34:41

interesting how the book would

34:43

not benefit from being more like the musical

34:45

and the musical would not benefit from being

34:47

more like the book yeah i think is

34:49

kind of it's very fascinating anyway sorry so

34:51

you saw you saw yes and but i

34:53

remember via finding it exciting and i think

34:55

i thought it was going to be much

34:57

camper than it was because like glinda comes

34:59

down in the in the bubble and she's

35:01

she's so instantly funny yeah and um and

35:03

then it's like oh you kind of got

35:05

this this bullying plot but you know it's

35:07

not it's sad but it's not destroying you

35:09

or anything and then something i remember this

35:11

moment of when you see

35:14

the goat professor in a

35:16

cage at last and he can't talk anymore and

35:18

he's just bleeding i just i

35:21

completely fell apart and you're like that was the

35:23

moment i was like oh it has me by

35:25

the throat this musical i've just been sitting here

35:27

kind of appreciating the craftiness of it and the

35:29

campiness and then it's something that's when it kind

35:31

of gets you sort of thing and like i

35:34

think the idea of being silenced is such a

35:36

powerful one and especially within a musical yeah like

35:38

i think to go back to the film like i

35:40

think that was done really well and really effectively i

35:42

think the the song um something

35:45

bad i think that's what it's called i'm sorry

35:47

the song that dr de monte sings with alphaba

35:49

in the stage version it's just with her like

35:51

so it's only she he he's having a chat

35:54

with her about how bad oz has gotten and

35:56

in the movie version she sort of follows him

35:58

to this yeah like you know this little cabin

36:00

where there's quite a few animals in there all

36:02

of whom are stressed out and I think that

36:04

was a really stressed out about not having any

36:06

rights. Yeah. All right guys, we get

36:09

it. But I think that was actually again like that

36:11

was really powerful. I think I think that was a

36:13

good widening of this sort of stage world to be

36:15

kind of like it's not enough. There's

36:17

just one there's one goat who go through some stuff like you

36:19

got you really got a sense of a wider community of

36:22

people of animals, all

36:24

of whom were being gradually stripped of

36:27

the of what was of their civil rights and

36:29

it was very very like affecting. Yeah. And

36:31

particularly for the movie, they didn't

36:33

go like sort of anthropological humanoid

36:35

type of like I was expecting

36:37

a sort of a CGI-ified man

36:39

kind of thing or like kind

36:41

of a Lion King treatment

36:43

or whatever Lion King the stage show. And

36:47

then to have him just be like a CGI rendered

36:49

goat I was like, oh, this isn't gonna work. And

36:52

then it was, oh, fuck it completely works. I think

36:54

also we are we were colored from that because we'd

36:56

just seen the trailer for the new Steve Fassa. Oh

36:58

yeah. I'm

37:01

gonna talk about Steve Kuegan and the penguin. Yeah. Okay.

37:04

We saw two trailers featuring animals. Both in like indignity. Yeah,

37:07

but we you know, it's I think there's there's

37:09

a real you know, for

37:11

us as as millennials who love the cartoon

37:13

versions like it's really hard to have affection

37:15

for I think the kind of very true

37:17

to life CG versions of animals and the

37:19

Lion King and like, why can't you

37:21

just do it in a cute way? But

37:24

I think for this actually is it's yeah, it

37:26

makes complete sense and is definitely the right the

37:28

right call. I feel like

37:30

we're skipping over that sort

37:33

of first moment where Glinda arrives.

37:36

Like at what point did you completely know we

37:38

were in safe hands with Ariana Grande? That's

37:41

such a good question. So feel like

37:43

yeah, let's let's talk about the let's talk about the

37:45

people. Yeah, a little bit. She

37:50

I feel like so early on like I think

37:52

I feel I feel like actually I can't

37:54

remember her first like comic beat. I think it's

37:56

like when she's like she's she's done her speech.

37:58

She's done the Let

38:00

us be glad, all that kind of stuff. And she's about

38:02

to go, and then she puts her little foot down on

38:05

the pedal for the bubble to arrive, and she's like, fucking come on.

38:09

And just that little glimpse of the work engagement is

38:11

done, and now I get to go home. And

38:14

it was just really, really

38:16

spectacularly done. And I

38:19

can't believe how funny. She's so

38:21

funny. She is in this movie. What

38:23

a physical comedian. Every,

38:27

unbelievable. So

38:29

what was your relationship to Ariana Grande before

38:31

this? I mean, minimal, personally.

38:34

Personally, also minimal. I feel like no harm in

38:36

this. I feel like, never turn a foul. Yeah,

38:38

yeah. I feel like, obviously an incredible singer, but

38:40

I was definitely like, huh, what an interesting choice.

38:42

I hope we don't lose out on a funny

38:44

Glinda, because it is a funny part. And

38:47

it's been played by such like, yeah, like Kristen

38:49

Chenoweth, and so many sort of comedy musical titans

38:51

in the past. And she's just

38:53

like, you know, obviously incredibly gorgeous, very thin,

38:56

beautiful pop star. But

38:59

we were wrong. Oh my God, we

39:01

were wrong. Wrong, I think like. Well,

39:04

obviously she was a Nickelodeon kid. Yes, yes. So

39:06

that kind of comic timing. Say this about Nickelodeon.

39:08

I know that children's TV has been revealed to

39:10

be an absolute hell pit, but

39:13

they never put someone on TV

39:15

who wasn't funny. No, no, they- It wasn't

39:17

like Disney can know. Where it's just like,

39:19

we made you in a factory where we feed Bambi

39:22

in one end and you come out the other. It

39:25

was like, everybody who was on Nickelodeon in

39:27

1990 was a funny fucking fucker. So

39:29

charismatic. And like, I think that was the thing. I

39:31

feel like I hadn't realized the level

39:34

of charisma. And also that kind of, but

39:36

like that was so perfect for Glinda, which is kind of

39:38

like the kind of, not that that was

39:40

like the such pure, it's

39:43

clean sort of surface of it. Just

39:45

like frictionless. And then, but just with

39:47

kind of like, or like

39:49

almost Jennifer Aniston's ability to

39:51

suddenly be a physical comedian. I've

39:54

got a big, my heart for

39:56

Jennifer Aniston. I feel like she is very lost in friends in

39:58

terms of how funny she is physically. she's too beautiful and they

40:00

don't use her enough. But for the

40:03

episode where Julie comes back from the airport and she's got

40:05

the flowers on her head and she's like, Julie! I

40:09

keep that in my heart the whole year round. It's

40:12

so funny anyway, but I got it

40:14

out. Julie, Julie, it's Julie! It's

40:16

not just you. It's really her and I'm

40:19

fantastic. Like it's

40:21

perfection. And I felt very similarly

40:23

about Ariana Grande. Yes, yeah. Doing

40:26

this sort of effortless, elegant

40:28

beauty and then ability to

40:30

kind of just really be a

40:33

dipshit. Yeah, I was also

40:35

putting in mind, oddly, of Brittany Murphy. Yes,

40:37

yes, yes. There was something in the kind

40:39

of the big chocolate brown eyes and the

40:42

sort of strange little comic readings and

40:44

finding notes that weren't there originally.

40:46

Yeah. I think particularly unpopular, but

40:49

at the end of popular, they have like a sort

40:51

of extended ending of popular. She just gets to dance

40:53

around. And the brown eyes. When that

40:55

was happening, I was like, huh? But I was like, you

40:57

know what? Yeah, go off. Go off. This

40:59

is your moment, Ariana. Like, yes. That bit where

41:01

she is doing that Homer Simpson sort of like

41:04

thing on the floor where she's just like kicking

41:06

her legs and rotating herself around. Like full pants

41:08

fully out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wearing a pink sort

41:10

of like thing. Yeah. It's

41:13

deranged. It's so good. Yeah,

41:15

it's really, really good. I think she's, yeah,

41:18

absolutely perfect for it. And I feel like,

41:20

yeah, it does not, that doesn't actually come

41:22

across in like the press and primer around

41:24

it. Yeah. Just how

41:26

funny she is in this movie. Yeah. By

41:29

comparison, Cynthia, I think

41:32

is really. It's a harder role, I think.

41:35

It's a harder part. And I think I

41:37

was reading some stuff about, by Stephen Schwartz

41:39

about the writing of these two characters and

41:42

how Glinda kind of, the voice of

41:44

Glinda came kind of more naturally to the book writer.

41:48

Because I think she's just funny. Like it's quite, it's

41:50

easy to write a part like Glinda in that she's

41:52

very clearly flawed. So I think, so anyone who is

41:54

clearly flawed is very helpful for comedy. Operation

41:57

Minceme is full of deeply flawed people

41:59

for that reason. it's really easy

42:01

and fun to write gags about and for people who

42:03

have a very clear obvious form. Like Linda, it's

42:05

like, she's beautiful, she's deluded, she's

42:08

incredibly popular, but ultimately, she's

42:10

truly intermural about who she actually is. Whereas

42:12

Elphaba comes into the story really knowing who

42:15

she is. And there's not a lot really

42:17

of growth for Elphaba

42:19

in this story in that she kind of comes in,

42:22

knowing who she is and kind of ends knowing where she

42:24

is. I think that is a harder ask of

42:26

both a writer and a performer

42:29

to kind of find moments. But I

42:31

think what she does bring is like, it's incredibly warm

42:33

and I think very

42:35

sincere. And I feel like she balances

42:37

that thing of having kind of disgust for

42:39

her fellow man, but also

42:41

kind of wanting to be part of that world

42:44

really well. But I feel like, yeah, it's

42:46

just the nature of the part, really, that

42:49

she doesn't, like I feel like in that, the

42:51

kind of the kind of crux, the kind of friendship

42:53

crux, which is obviously during Dancing Through Life, where she

42:55

gets the hat and then she comes to

42:58

the ballroom, which again, to do a pause in terms

43:00

of how they did it, I think was so wonderful.

43:02

Oh my God, the fish. That ballroom or beneath the

43:04

fish. And I think just really true

43:06

to the song, I

43:09

think it's a really plotty song. And

43:12

having written a bunch of plotty songs, like they can

43:14

be really difficult because you feel like you are, like

43:16

you're losing momentum with every plot beat and you kind

43:18

of just want to push through it. That is like,

43:20

you've got to have the bit with Nasser Rose and

43:22

Bach and you've got to have, but where they meet

43:25

Fiera and then they go to the ballroom and

43:28

there's a lot of different beats you have to hit. And I feel like,

43:31

I could see why in a stage version, whatever, not done

43:33

right. You can feel a little bit like, oh my God,

43:36

I'm still doing the kind of a turn over here and

43:38

then there's a little bit. But I feel like the number

43:40

of locations they gave that, like having that, there was like

43:42

the boat that they took from the kind of underneath the-

43:45

Let's start from the library, right? Stop, oh my gosh. That

43:47

amazing library. The library sequence of the rotating- Like

43:49

Hogwarts sucked my dick. I'm kidding me. It's

43:51

like Hogwarts meets Greece. You know what I mean? It was

43:54

just like- Oh my God, it's so was! It's at the

43:56

end of the- The rotating thing. Yeah, like John Travolta just

43:58

like he, I mean. and Bailey

44:00

just giving us John Travolta in Greece

44:02

and that thing just thrusting towards every

44:04

man or woman that was in his

44:06

path. So that was a wonderful location.

44:09

And then you had the boat waiting

44:11

by the harbour and then coming to

44:13

that and sneaking out of this going

44:15

across the water and then to have

44:17

this gorgeous unbelievable fish palace. Fish

44:20

palace? Fish palace! Finally! Where's my fish palace? But

44:22

anyway, to get to my point, yeah, but to

44:24

return to the point of like, yeah, so you

44:26

have the crux of this friendship moment where it

44:28

all turns around for where you really see Glinda's

44:30

character make a choice and

44:32

go, oh, this experience has changed me and I

44:35

will be different now because of this. Whereas that

44:37

moment for Elphaba is kind of just going, you

44:39

guys are dicks, be different and then they do. Yeah,

44:42

yeah, yeah. Like, I guess the small amount of

44:44

change for her is like, she bends enough because

44:46

her sister has been, you know, because Glinda's ostensibly

44:49

been kind to her sister that she asks Mara

44:51

Modibov to give Glinda lessons and she takes the

44:53

hat and she, you know, she has the hat.

44:55

But I feel like that's

44:57

nowhere near the kind of character concession or

44:59

character development that you, that is not mirroring

45:01

Glinda's in that moment. So I feel like

45:04

in all of those ways, it

45:06

makes her a harder character to kind of go

45:08

on that journey with, even though she is the

45:10

main character because she has such a formed sense

45:12

of self from the beginning. I think the only

45:14

way you could do it is if you gave her less sense of

45:16

self and be like, if she was really vile or if she was

45:18

like a dick, I guess what

45:20

they do do is they have her that she

45:22

can't control her magic. That's her thing. But

45:25

like, again, like, that doesn't need,

45:29

that's exciting. That's an exciting trait. I guess

45:31

if you're getting anything from Elphaba in that

45:33

scene, the biggest thing you're getting is relief.

45:36

Because like, they have that scene which, to

45:39

me, was very much the inverse of

45:42

the final scenes of Romeo and Michelle's

45:44

High School reunion. Like, there's almost nothing

45:46

that makes me cry more than those

45:48

two crazy women dancing to

45:50

time after time and letting Alan come and join.

45:52

Yeah, that is so nice. But the kind of

45:54

the function of that dance is like these are

45:56

two best friends who have fallen out and this

45:58

is how they get back together. Whereas this is kind

46:00

of an inverted thing of like, these are two people who

46:02

hate each other who are gonna become friends through this dance.

46:05

And like, it was maybe sort of,

46:07

to go back to your point of like, the

46:10

material having to relate to the format

46:12

and in very specific ways, it's like

46:15

what you don't get in

46:17

cinema is the suspension of disbelief, but what

46:19

you do get is like the

46:22

opportunity to linger. And it, you know, and-

46:24

And also, I guess what you

46:26

get is also the opportunity to have

46:28

small moments that feel huge. As

46:30

you say, like, yeah, that dance in the gym

46:32

when Elphaba, you know, she's dancing with

46:34

Glinda and you kind of got that long pan of her

46:37

looking over and you know, her tears falling and Glinda saying,

46:39

you know, it's okay. I guess, yeah,

46:41

that, you would never have that in the stage

46:43

show because there is just simply no room for

46:45

that kind of specificity and sort of smallness. And

46:48

but that to demonstrate kind of like, I guess

46:50

that is the kind of resolution of her arc,

46:52

which is she doesn't care about

46:54

people. Oh no, of course she does care what people think

46:57

because she's letting out this kind of feeling in

47:00

front of Glinda. So I think, yeah, I guess in

47:02

some ways that's the kind of movie's answer to the

47:05

less of a journey that Elphaba gets

47:07

to do in that she kind

47:09

of begins hardened

47:11

against the world a bit and not, you know, she

47:13

won't let people see it in that. And in the

47:15

dance, she kind of, for whether she wants to or

47:17

not lets her emotion get the better

47:19

of her. And Glinda is the one there to kind of

47:21

pick her up from the ground. Yeah, and so

47:24

the release you get is kind of an emotional

47:26

one because first of all, like you, what this

47:28

character has been so pent up and so defensive

47:30

and now she kind of melts, but also it's

47:32

like, you've been watching people be like addicted to

47:34

this poor girl. And so I think, I feel

47:36

like I have to say for ages, like,

47:38

I feel like, I think what's good

47:40

about, what's good about

47:42

the theater is that I feel like in the

47:45

theater, single items are

47:47

incredibly powerful because you do not

47:49

get on in stage lots of

47:52

props. Well, you do, but you don't get anywhere near

47:54

the kind of majesty of the entire world of Oz.

47:58

And there's an object. automatically

48:00

imbued with kind of power and status. And

48:02

so I think in the theatre version, that

48:04

hat, Elphaba's hat, you know, when Glinda gives

48:06

her that object, as an audience, you kind

48:08

of automatically, because instinct we kind of go,

48:10

this is a powerful object, this is an

48:12

object that will mean something important to us,

48:14

because there's just in terms of sparsity, there

48:16

just aren't that many objects to focus

48:18

on. And so I think for me, her wearing

48:21

that hat and being sort of mocked by

48:23

the school group in the musical stage version

48:26

felt very correct. It felt very much like

48:28

this is an object that is powerful, it

48:30

is the wrong object, everyone's now looking at

48:32

this object, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whereas

48:34

I feel like a little, because

48:38

this is a film that is filled

48:41

with unbelievably beautiful

48:44

objects everywhere, for me that item did

48:46

not have quite enough resonant power to

48:48

be like, I don't really believe that

48:51

this entire dance, this entire club has

48:53

been rendered speechless. There's a giraffe on

48:55

the sax, but this is the problem.

48:58

It's just, I didn't really believe it. There was no

49:01

really way to put it. We're going around it because

49:03

it's such a canon event in that musical. But I

49:05

think what it does really nicely is kind of go,

49:07

it's just interesting that like on a stage, I

49:10

feel like there's no friction to that scene for

49:12

me whatsoever. It's just like, because of that unspoken

49:14

thing of an

49:16

object handed to a performer, you buy into that

49:18

same contract of like, yeah, okay, there's been a

49:20

lot of time in this hat, it's important. Whereas

49:23

I think in the screen, if you dilute that

49:25

by having everything to be so gorgeous, a club

49:27

coming to a standstill because a girl's wearing a

49:29

hat just didn't quite make sense to me. Yeah,

49:31

you're right. And for so long as well, like

49:34

they were laughing at that hat. I was like,

49:36

have you seen these guys out? Come on, guys.

49:38

It's just like, they're a fish in the ceiling.

49:41

They're a fish in the ceiling. The

49:43

baboon wailing on the keys. I don't

49:46

think I believe that. But I don't think it's necessary. But I also believe there

49:48

was no way to get around it. No, exactly. There's no way to get around

49:51

it. They did exactly what they needed to do. And I think it's

49:54

more than anything, I think, kind of testament to how nice

49:56

it is to be in the theatre being like, this is

49:58

a special hat. You

50:01

must care about his special- You must care about whether

50:03

his hat is good or bad, we won't tell you

50:06

until the important moment. The

50:08

meaning of the hat will change. The meaning of the hat will change!

50:12

Like I think they did an amazing job of like,

50:14

I felt like I felt the stakes of their personal

50:16

relationship and I felt like those people hated her and

50:19

like all of that was played gorgeously. But

50:21

for me the inciting thing of that being that she wore

50:23

the wrong hat, I was like this is too grand a

50:25

movie for this to be what this is. But

50:29

yeah I thought they were both great. And

50:31

I think to go back to old Jonathan

50:33

Bailey who is now like a- he's a

50:35

musical theatre. Sort of old

50:38

hat now, he was in Company that was here last year. Oh

50:40

right! Oh I saw that! Yeah he's

50:42

like- With Girl Company! Girl Company!

50:44

Yes I saw Girl Company! Girl Company! Oh

50:47

wow! And

50:50

he was one of the leads in that

50:52

and he was obviously gorgeous in that as

50:55

well. I think he's like- obviously this

50:57

is kind of an obvious thing to say but like

50:59

it's really lovely to have such a charismatic- I mean

51:02

he's got so much charisma, he's got so much

51:04

chemistry with everyone and to be a very out

51:06

gay man and like very publicly comfortably gay and

51:08

like every woman and man in the world just

51:11

wants to fuck him. And I think that's really

51:13

nice. And that is also the power of musical

51:15

theatre! The power

51:17

of musical theatre! Letting gay men have

51:19

a chance to be launched for by

51:21

everybody! Every single person! Let him roll

51:23

around that John Travolta bookcase and get

51:25

fucked by everyone in the room! Maybe

51:28

this is a silly question to ask because like I know-

51:30

I don't know, I don't know if you're the kind of

51:32

person who would even care about this but like did

51:35

you feel that sort of wrangling of like you

51:37

know musical theatre actors who

51:39

originate these roles often don't get

51:41

to play them kind of thing when the film comes around?

51:43

That's a good question! I feel like

51:46

it depends so much on the circumstance

51:48

because like you know obviously the

51:50

people who- I don't

51:52

know this role, I tell the name. Adeema

51:54

Nizal and Nancy- gorgeous Adeema Nizal and Kristin Chenoweth

51:57

who of course do have- Okay now they- This

51:59

is the actual spoiler parse. Because if somebody had

52:01

told me about this, I would have punched them

52:03

in the fucking head. So if you actually haven't

52:05

seen the film, then

52:08

God have worth it. We're making space

52:10

for you to pause or go away

52:13

or whatever. But they are in One

52:15

Shot Day in the Emerald City and

52:17

we both obsees. We actually

52:19

screamed in our empty-lesser square

52:21

theater at 10am. Squealing

52:24

to no one. I

52:27

couldn't, at first I thought it was going to be like

52:29

maybe just a pop-in, but they do the whole number. They

52:31

do the whole number! And they get to stand with their

52:33

girls. Yes! That was so nice. And

52:36

I feel like, you know, I can't believe that they

52:38

would ever, not that they would, but like, you know, the

52:40

gestation period of these films, these projects are so long.

52:43

I feel like if this had been made 10 years

52:45

ago, then they absolutely would have played those parts. But

52:48

now it wouldn't be appropriate for it to do it. And

52:50

I think on the negative side of that,

52:52

there was a movie of Dear Evan Hansen.

52:56

Which I don't know if you've seen. No, I haven't seen

52:58

it yet. I'm not seeing it either, but, you know, it's

53:00

quite a, it's a very famous musical, lots of beautiful songs.

53:02

And the guy who originated that part, Ben Platt, did play

53:04

the guy in the movie. But unfortunately he'd aged out

53:07

of it by that point, you know, he's supposed to be a

53:09

teenager. And then when he was in the movie, it was his

53:11

sort of twenties. And like, they tried

53:13

to do some like technological delivery to

53:15

age him down. Have you noticed that

53:18

they've done that for Robert De Niro? They've

53:21

done that for Harrison Ford, for Indiana Jones?

53:24

They've done that for this guy. I

53:26

have not seen one woman get her face smoothed by technology

53:28

yet. It's put on there. It's because

53:30

women are, it's because like, no one's like putting Judy

53:32

down through the filter. Making her young

53:34

again. Make Judy sexy again. Yeah, it's like, no, we'll

53:36

just replace her. But the men we

53:38

can't replace, Robert De Niro cannot be replaced. You

53:41

cannot unearth that tree. We

53:43

all. It's like tree beard in

53:45

Order of the Rings. Yeah, just like, let's just

53:47

dig them up and move them to a location we need.

53:50

Yeah, I don't know that. Yeah, you're right. I've

53:52

seen so many women, women forever replace the women with

53:54

younger women. But like,

53:56

yeah, I feel like it's, I

53:58

don't, I've tried to imagine what that film would have been

54:00

like. like if they cast Idina Menzel and Kristin Chenoweth as

54:02

parts. Not even Idina Menzel, but obviously because that wouldn't really

54:05

make any sense. Oh, do you mean like the people who

54:07

are playing them now? Yeah. I see, I see, I see.

54:09

Well, and Kristin Chenoweth is a Broadway

54:11

star. Like she has come through theater. I

54:14

don't know. I actually don't know if she's played

54:16

Elphaba or not, but like she certainly has paid her like,

54:18

what do I do? So I feel like she sort of

54:21

comes. As you will soon. As I will when I play

54:23

her. So

54:25

I think, but you're right. I don't

54:27

know whether, I suspect, I

54:29

suspect there was a desire to both honor

54:32

the Broadway tradition it came from, but also

54:34

cast someone incredibly, incredibly famous. Yeah. Just

54:37

because that feels like the best of both

54:39

worlds. Because I remember there being so much

54:41

cynicism around Ariana Grande being cast when it

54:43

first happened. Because I think she has sort

54:45

of, I've never liked

54:47

her music because it just, the kind of

54:49

whispery sex music is not really for me.

54:51

Sexy children music? I don't, yeah. It makes

54:54

me uncomfortable. And

54:56

so the idea of, and kind of more in

54:58

a kind of R&B space or whatever. So the

55:00

idea of her playing such a kind of squeaky

55:02

clean comic kind of role was such

55:04

a surprising, weird vibe valuable. And just I feel

55:06

great for her that she's just like, no, I

55:08

am the most perfect version of this. It could

55:10

be. She's so perfectly ideal. But I feel there's

55:12

quite a lot of pop stars recently that have

55:14

come out of musical theater. Like Renee Rapp, I

55:16

think was, she was in Mean Girls on Broadway.

55:19

Yeah. And there was- She's

55:21

great as well. She's amazing. Like I feel

55:23

like, yeah, there's really, it's really fun. And

55:25

also I feel like female pop stars are

55:27

also becoming more theatrical. Like, you know, like

55:30

a Chavarone, Sabrina MacArbin, too. Like they are

55:32

such like kind of teeny, teeny

55:34

theater, theatery girls. Like the shows are so

55:36

theatrical, particularly Chavarone, obviously. Like I feel there's

55:38

a real, it's a real time right now

55:41

for like fucking nerdy

55:43

hot theater girls. You

55:45

just want like, like I love the return of

55:47

the showgirl. Yeah. The showgirl on her own terms,

55:50

you know, it really fills me with lines. I

55:52

just love it. It really feels like girls for

55:54

girls, you know what I mean? Girls for girls!

55:56

And men don't care about Chavarone wearing a suit

55:59

of armor and like- a big sword and settings

56:01

on fire. Women do. Women do and the gay

56:03

men do and that is who is, that is

56:05

who it's for. That is who it's for. You

56:07

know, I think that's, it's just, yeah, it's really

56:10

beautiful. But to answer your

56:12

question, if they made a film of Mince

56:14

Meat, yes, I would be in it. That's

56:17

the advantage of casting yourself as a

56:19

late thirties, early forties man. I

56:21

will be that dream. Oh my God. I

56:24

will be Robert De Niro in that situation.

56:26

Oh my God. You're going to age into

56:28

you in Montague. Wow. Because yeah. But I

56:30

was true there, but like, you know, but

56:32

that, to be entirely seriousness, like if we

56:34

go to Broadway and it goes well, and

56:36

then they're like 10 years from now, they're

56:38

like, want to do a movie. We don't

56:40

want to do it. We'll be like, we'll

56:42

be, we'll surely be done by then. But

56:44

who knows? Maybe I'll be like, no one

56:46

can play this part of the thing. Renee

56:48

rap, get away. Get away. Chaperone, stop calling

56:50

me. You will not play. Chaperone as you

56:52

in Montague. You

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stopscooping.com/Acast. We

58:54

should get back to the movie. What

58:56

other bits? What other bits were so good?

59:00

I feel like there were so many beautiful bits,

59:02

comic bits, or whatever that just came at me.

59:04

And I kept going, oh, I have to remember

59:06

that for the podcast later, but I just, simmering

59:08

in it. It was like set piece after set

59:10

piece after set piece. And the way that, again,

59:12

the musical is so successful for that reason. The

59:15

songs are so good. I feel like Wizzer and I, the

59:17

first solo, that Elphaba

59:19

has, was done really, really well, and it was very

59:21

beautiful, very simple. It was just sort of her. And

59:23

I think what was really amazing about Cynthia's performance in

59:26

that, she obviously could have

59:28

done basically as much showing off

59:31

as anyone would want to in that part, in

59:33

that her voice is staggeringly gorgeous. She has full

59:35

control of all the range, but actually she didn't

59:37

really do any kind of showy

59:42

offy fluttery fluttery stuff. She really kept it back

59:44

and- She kept it back until, yeah, until the

59:46

end of Foreign Gravity and Wizzer and I, I

59:49

feel like she just was either directed

59:52

instinctively or maybe whatever, both, was very

59:54

much like, everyone here knows that you've

59:56

gotten this part because you are an

59:58

amazing singer. We don't need- to kind

1:00:00

of go above and beyond to kind of prove

1:00:02

your credentials in these moments like just just be

1:00:04

the part be singers alphabet would sing and don't

1:00:06

worry about you know how how it's going to

1:00:08

be perceived by no one's going yeah but did

1:00:10

she did she do the option up did she

1:00:12

rift did he hit the da da da da

1:00:14

da. So yeah I really appreciate that I really

1:00:16

appreciated that I thought that was really smart

1:00:19

choices. Oh I know a

1:00:21

bit that I really loved I mean it's right at the

1:00:23

end but like I love the fact that again like

1:00:25

I feel like generally

1:00:27

they did a really good balance of this is a

1:00:29

movie for people who love this musical but also it's

1:00:31

a movie for people who don't really care about this

1:00:34

musical and I'm not seeing this on the point in

1:00:36

that like there were easter eggs

1:00:38

and there was like little few things like cameo from Stephen

1:00:40

Schwartz and like obviously having the original

1:00:42

girls and everything but like in nothing ever

1:00:44

hung on those cameos it was

1:00:46

never saying this is a movie

1:00:48

full of jokes for people who aren't you like you need

1:00:51

to earn your stripes you're going to care about this movie

1:00:53

which I feel like so much of you

1:00:56

know I think sometimes kind of cinema

1:00:58

that's based on other stuff and like can get wrapped

1:01:00

in a tangle of sort of self-referencing but

1:01:03

having said all that I really loved that by

1:01:05

the end of Defying Gravity she basically is in

1:01:07

that pose like that you know in the stage

1:01:09

version of Defying Gravity Elphaba gets lifted into the

1:01:11

air but she's standing straight it's just it's a

1:01:13

most lovely and basic theatrical trick in the world

1:01:15

it's like she's not fucking roaming around the stage

1:01:17

she's not in the audience like she has to

1:01:19

still be able to sing so well in those

1:01:21

moments and they just lift her that's all they

1:01:23

do yeah they just lift her up they lift

1:01:25

her up in the smoke and this haze and

1:01:27

she's just holding a broomstick so that she's just

1:01:29

as solid as possible because the real magic is

1:01:31

just the end of that song they really you

1:01:33

know it's just the end of that song being

1:01:35

such a beautiful song so beautifully and like they

1:01:37

don't they just want to clear the decks to

1:01:39

be like you are just going to listen to

1:01:41

this woman sing this song now um and I

1:01:43

feel like and in the movie it ends with

1:01:45

her fully like stood up in the sky like

1:01:47

they do not they're not they're not like they

1:01:49

have her all kind of whizzing around for a

1:01:51

while but actually by the end it's just her

1:01:53

in that window like stood stood fully

1:01:55

up as she is in the stage show with

1:01:57

a broom in her hand being like and

1:02:00

this is the picture you wanted and that's what we're going to

1:02:02

honour. It's like, this is the magic that's gotten this film made.

1:02:06

It's that so many people have seen that moment in

1:02:08

the back of the one and been

1:02:10

like, this is amazing. And it's just a woman

1:02:12

on a plinth. It's just a woman up high,

1:02:14

standing up high. But for those people watching, it's

1:02:16

like it's this amazing moment of freedom and bravery

1:02:19

and magic. This woman can fly and it's so

1:02:21

magic. And I think it was a really

1:02:23

smart decision that would not

1:02:25

have ever been made because it's

1:02:27

kind of a mad pose to have a woman

1:02:29

who can fly standing like an actual woman in

1:02:31

the middle of the sky finishing her number. But

1:02:33

I think it was obvious that they wanted to

1:02:35

to to do,

1:02:37

you know, to pay respect and homage that moment that

1:02:40

so many millions of people have seen and been like,

1:02:42

this woman standing up more higher than a woman

1:02:45

normally does is

1:02:48

the symbol of all that is magic and all that

1:02:50

is grave. And I really, I really like that. I

1:02:53

love you so much. But

1:02:56

I totally, I totally get that because like you're

1:03:00

so right of like the the

1:03:03

idea that like this multi, multi million

1:03:05

dollar movie that's like inspiring Google Pixel

1:03:07

phone partnerships. So important and all kinds

1:03:09

of phones to say. Oh, my God.

1:03:11

The amount of trash that will be

1:03:13

created just to like for people to

1:03:15

get a hold of a piece of

1:03:18

this movie while it's so hot. And,

1:03:20

you know, all these careers and all

1:03:22

these professions and crafts really comes

1:03:24

back to this tiny jewel at the center of

1:03:26

this musical, which is that song. Like it like

1:03:28

and they had come up. They knew it was

1:03:30

their end of Act One number. They knew it

1:03:33

was strong enough to sort of like launch a

1:03:35

thousand ships in a house. In a house like

1:03:37

look at it like look at it. And, you

1:03:39

know, again, not to make it

1:03:41

by myself, but like I think, again, like

1:03:43

having had this mad ride with

1:03:45

this show that we've written and like for it to have

1:03:47

gone from, you know, for those who don't know about it,

1:03:49

but I've written a musical copy of Ms. Me, which started

1:03:52

in a very small venue. It started

1:03:54

in an 80 seater in London and it's now

1:03:56

grown to be this. It's going to enter its

1:03:58

third year in the West End next year. It's

1:04:00

30 years. What? I know in March

1:04:02

it'll be its third year. And the West End. And the West End. How

1:04:05

many years overall? Like when did I first go see it? When

1:04:07

was it in New Drama? We started performing in 2019. Fucking

1:04:10

hell. It's crazy. And

1:04:13

now the original cast are taking it to Broadway next

1:04:17

year, well, starting in February and

1:04:20

opening in March. But again,

1:04:22

just being like, and now so many, you know, there are

1:04:24

so many jobs and so many people and so many people

1:04:26

working incredibly hard to kind of

1:04:28

create this kind of little

1:04:30

beats of magic. And like, and because, you

1:04:33

know, people have come and seen the show

1:04:35

and our show is incredibly simple in terms

1:04:37

of the staging and we didn't have any

1:04:39

sort of money for big sets. And, you

1:04:41

know, that actually was helpful and all the

1:04:43

rest of it. But I think, yeah, it's

1:04:45

very, very, very magical for me that to

1:04:47

see that image of like that

1:04:49

of Elphaba standing standing. I'm

1:04:52

told on my own and being like the most

1:04:54

valuable part of this whole, this whole thing is

1:04:57

just such a clean and

1:04:59

easy to create image

1:05:01

with just a song behind it. And

1:05:03

like, and that for that to speak

1:05:05

so, so strongly to the

1:05:07

instinct of being a human being that

1:05:09

it can create the Google pixel. Do

1:05:14

you know what I mean? They're making it in green. They're making

1:05:16

it in green. Oh, they're green or pink. Who can decide? But

1:05:19

like, it's so mad. Like it's so mad

1:05:21

that that's true. And

1:05:24

to have a project that is obviously

1:05:26

nowhere near that level of huge, but

1:05:28

to have something that feels like we've

1:05:30

accidentally stumbled across a sort of magic

1:05:32

and momentum that people want to

1:05:35

get behind. And that thing of like, how

1:05:37

do you I think as artists and as

1:05:39

like storytellers, you're constantly

1:05:41

in a churn of like, how do I say the

1:05:43

thing that I want to say in like

1:05:46

a simple enough or smart enough or funny

1:05:48

enough way that it just kind of chimes

1:05:50

the bell of the person you're talking to.

1:05:53

And that'd be like a reader or a

1:05:55

person listening or an audience member. And like,

1:05:57

and when you manage to accidentally stumble into.

1:06:00

in a moment or a scene or whatever or a

1:06:02

chapter or a fucking sentence, it's

1:06:04

like you just relax for a moment. And

1:06:07

this was just pure golden sunshine. It's a

1:06:09

weird feeling of synthesis with every person who's

1:06:11

alive. Yeah, and whoever has been alive and

1:06:13

who has been a million years. You know

1:06:15

what I mean? It's such a... And I

1:06:18

feel that as a reader as well as

1:06:20

a creator, it's why I feel like not

1:06:22

to come back to AI again, but it's

1:06:25

such madness to me when all

1:06:27

any art is trying to do is reach across time

1:06:29

and go, it was the same for us too. You

1:06:32

know, it was the same before and it will be the same

1:06:34

again. And like the great comfort of having

1:06:37

that chiming bell from someone who's written something six

1:06:39

years ago or 300 years from now. And

1:06:44

I just think, I honestly think to define gravity. And

1:06:47

it's not even like... And I think what's amazing

1:06:49

about different gravity is I think if you listen to...

1:06:51

If you read the lyrics, like on

1:06:53

a page, a paper, you'd be like, OK. Yeah,

1:06:55

that seems like there's some really good lines in

1:06:57

there. And like, there's lots of good stuff and

1:06:59

like, you know, it's going very well. But like

1:07:02

something about that... Dun,

1:07:04

dun, dun, dun, dun. It's just like...

1:07:09

It's so good. I remember the first time, the first time I

1:07:11

ever heard that song. It was the first time I ever heard

1:07:13

from Wicked. And it

1:07:15

was... I was at university. I just... My first year

1:07:17

at university, I'd never heard of Wicked. I'd literally... I'd

1:07:19

been in one musical in my life

1:07:21

and it was... West Side Story in

1:07:23

my school. I played Anybody's The Tom Boy

1:07:26

without a song. The

1:07:28

Tom Boy without a song. I managed to muscle into our

1:07:30

G officer, Krupke. I was like, I feel like anybody should be

1:07:32

there, which in my defense is very Anybody's thing to do. I

1:07:35

think I should be with the boys. But I

1:07:37

went to... And it was back in the day before it

1:07:39

was like, you know, the, you know, musicals weren't on the

1:07:41

Internet, really. There was nothing to... You didn't... I didn't know

1:07:43

anything about musicals. And I knew there

1:07:45

was a musical theater society. And

1:07:48

I went and I'd like... And I had an audition

1:07:50

to be like a background... So it was at secondary

1:07:52

school, yeah? No, this is... University. So I was an

1:07:54

in West History in secondary school. I went to university.

1:07:56

OK. I mean, knowing

1:07:58

basically nothing about musicals, but... having had, I

1:08:00

had an audition to be in the,

1:08:03

in another plays, but

1:08:06

I had been rejected because I couldn't

1:08:08

do a posh accent. Oh. Which

1:08:11

is the first time I'd ever, cause I grew up

1:08:13

in the North obviously, and I didn't really occur to

1:08:15

me that like, my voice wasn't posh. I think it's

1:08:18

gotten much posh now, it's been living in London for

1:08:20

so long. Yeah, same here, man. You know, how it

1:08:22

goes. But like, so the drama society only ever did

1:08:24

like, Shakespeare and blah, blah, blah, and like, they were

1:08:26

all posh people. Oh my god, what? It

1:08:28

was just a very posh, I went to Warwick, it was a lovely

1:08:31

university, really good, but it was quite full of posh people. I

1:08:34

was Northern posh, we're not posh enough. So I

1:08:36

was like, okay, I can't do the plays. Actually,

1:08:38

they're not gonna let me. Oh my god, that's

1:08:40

so crazy. It's so crazy, and like, you know,

1:08:42

probably looking back, that was probably me dramatizing, but

1:08:44

I felt very keenly that like, the

1:08:46

play stuff I wasn't even able to do. And

1:08:48

then there was the musical, their society, where luckily

1:08:50

everyone was just trying to do a bad America

1:08:53

accent. Yeah. Cause everyone

1:08:55

could do that. Everyone could do that, and I was like,

1:08:57

great, that's fine, I'll do musicals and stuff, cause I like

1:08:59

singing and I'd been, you know. Anyway, so there was like

1:09:01

a musical theater review, but I turned

1:09:03

up to rehearsal and there was a woman there, and

1:09:05

as I was opening the door, she was singing Defying

1:09:07

Gravity. It was a girl called Laura Poina, I think

1:09:09

of her often, and it was like the most beautiful

1:09:11

thing I'd ever heard in my life. I couldn't believe

1:09:13

the song, I couldn't believe that this girl was singing

1:09:15

it, and like, I just, like, open mouth

1:09:17

listened to this, this incredible

1:09:20

song, this kind of crappy university rehearsal room

1:09:22

being like, how could make

1:09:24

such a lyric and melody together so

1:09:26

good? So magical. And

1:09:29

I just think there's something, and again, I'm like

1:09:31

sort of like, definitely like enlightened

1:09:34

or ignited in me, I could

1:09:36

desire to be like, what is this weird

1:09:39

magic that if you put words together with

1:09:41

music together, specifically in a kind of context

1:09:43

of theater? I think obviously music, music is

1:09:45

good, I feel like. Music, good. Music, we're

1:09:47

proud of it, and like, obviously I was,

1:09:49

you know, loved a lot of different, you

1:09:52

know, I was kind of more into rock

1:09:54

and like, I think I grew up in

1:09:56

the golden aire of like, 1-8-2, and yeah,

1:09:58

green down all the... those fans. But

1:10:01

I'd never really thought of it as a

1:10:03

thing that you could do on a stage

1:10:05

in theatre and then just but like literally

1:10:08

watching this and I came like went back

1:10:10

to my like little thing they're like what

1:10:12

is this musical what is this song to

1:10:14

defy the gravity and just like unlocking this

1:10:16

whole different sort of modern

1:10:18

musical theatre thing where it could be really

1:10:20

funny but really emotional and really like you

1:10:22

know sad and scary it was it was

1:10:24

very very formative for me and I think

1:10:27

really I think like every I feel like

1:10:29

every modern musical theatre creator really is chasing

1:10:31

down different gravity and like trying to figure

1:10:33

out how you unlock that one woman

1:10:35

up on the plinth with everyone

1:10:37

being like I would do anything to

1:10:39

help you. Oh my gosh. Sorry,

1:10:47

you really held space. Oh

1:10:49

no I held space for lyrics into my gravity. I

1:10:55

did the thing. You did it. You

1:10:58

were the couple of posts she was talking about. Oh god it was

1:11:00

me. It was you all along. But

1:11:02

listen I feel like if you're listening to this then

1:11:04

you're automatically holding space. You're holding space. This is where

1:11:06

we go. This is the place. This is where we

1:11:08

go to hold space. Oh my gosh. There's something when

1:11:10

I don't know I think

1:11:12

what obviously it's a beautiful song it's very powerful

1:11:15

it's very powerfully sung you need the most incredible

1:11:17

voice in the world to sing it. Yes. But

1:11:19

there's also something about the way Glinda is woven

1:11:21

through that song. Yes you're so right. That makes

1:11:24

it so important and that thing of like I

1:11:26

hope you're happy now that you've hurt your cause

1:11:28

forever. I hope you're feeling clever. And

1:11:31

they do like I know

1:11:33

it's like a tale of two gals in school and like you

1:11:36

know Wicked

1:11:39

is not shy about what it's talking about you

1:11:41

know what I mean or the power dynamics it's

1:11:43

talking about. I think also in musical that you

1:11:45

kind of again like for big stage things you

1:11:49

do often kind of have to be quite like to

1:11:51

say the thing. Yeah just say the thing like I

1:11:53

am angry with you because everything is so writ large

1:11:55

and again just that you don't have that again

1:11:57

as we talked about the smallness. It's

1:12:00

quite hard to have the smallness on a big stage. It's

1:12:02

not impossible, but I feel like, yeah, because there's so much

1:12:04

going on, you can't direct an eye in a show like

1:12:07

you can with a movie, there's no camera. It's like people

1:12:09

could be fucking looking anywhere on your stage, so a lot

1:12:11

of the time you do have to be like, eye,

1:12:14

this is my emotion, I'm gonna explain it

1:12:16

to you very clearly. And

1:12:19

that's quite hard as it's composed to be like, how

1:12:22

can I do this in a way that's not just

1:12:24

like shit? But I feel like in Divine Gravity, they

1:12:26

walk that line. Yeah, but

1:12:29

it's so interesting what you just said, because if

1:12:31

you compare like The Wizard of

1:12:33

Oz, the original movie, through its sheer popularity

1:12:38

through so much of that century, right? And

1:12:40

like being screened again and

1:12:42

again, being on TV again and again, it

1:12:44

developed these depths of feeling and meaning that

1:12:46

they actually didn't go in with. Like, so

1:12:49

it became such an important film for queer

1:12:51

culture and the idea of fan family. But

1:12:53

that is all allegorical, they are not saying the

1:12:56

quiet part out loud in The Wizard of Oz.

1:12:58

Yes, that's so true. Because they're not whispering it

1:13:00

at all, they don't care. They're just some movie

1:13:02

guys who probably like, painting

1:13:04

that poor tin man with lead. He

1:13:07

died of that. He died of that lead. And

1:13:11

so there was no intentionality of that other

1:13:13

than like, well, don't we all dream of

1:13:15

going somewhere else? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then

1:13:18

those layers grew over time. But now Wicked

1:13:20

is coming in post

1:13:22

those layers having grown and

1:13:24

dealing with it. And there is something, even

1:13:26

though it is obvious and even though they really put a button

1:13:29

on it and you don't have to be smart to see it,

1:13:31

there's something very powerful about the kind of Glinda,

1:13:33

Elphaba dynamic of Glinda

1:13:36

being, sort of essentially quite

1:13:38

shallow and what, but like also you kind of can't

1:13:40

blame her because what teenager isn't? Like what teenager isn't

1:13:42

like changing their name for a political cause you don't

1:13:44

care about? And also I think actually in some ways

1:13:46

kind of like the brave, I think it felt like

1:13:49

it's much more real. Like it could have been very easy. I think

1:13:51

this is what we're going back to the book really, it wouldn't be

1:13:54

very easy for it would be like, oh my

1:13:56

God, now Elphaba and Glinda are going off on their

1:13:58

adventure together and they're going to stop. And it's like,

1:14:00

no. because people actually, good people often

1:14:02

don't do that. They often do, but I need to

1:14:04

be safe. I need to be safe, I'm gonna stick

1:14:06

with the people who are gonna make

1:14:08

sure with my power and my family and like all the

1:14:10

rest of it. And I feel like it

1:14:12

is like an under sort of served, sort

1:14:15

of type of character, which is like, you

1:14:17

still sort of love them and believe in

1:14:19

them, but there is a fundamental lack of

1:14:21

bravery that means that

1:14:23

they can't step over that gulf and they can't

1:14:25

do the thing that the hero does. Exactly,

1:14:28

and it's like, as you said, Elphaba comes

1:14:30

in strong and she leaves stronger, which isn't

1:14:32

as big a journey to go on as

1:14:35

somebody. I mean, it's

1:14:37

incredibly poignant about someone who goes on

1:14:39

that kind of internal hero's journey, the

1:14:41

way Glinda does of like, I'm the

1:14:43

sort of shallow bully essentially, who becomes

1:14:46

friends with the weird girl and actually we're best

1:14:48

friends and actually I believe in her, but she

1:14:50

still stays kind of shallow and ambitious

1:14:53

and sort of wants to be on

1:14:55

the left hand of power because, and like,

1:14:57

I think this is very much a,

1:15:00

I don't know, it's hard not to

1:15:02

think about it like post a Trump victory, but it's

1:15:04

like people who are benefiting from a system will

1:15:07

never do anything to wrestle

1:15:09

away power from that system. And also that thing

1:15:12

of like, what can I do? Like, what can

1:15:14

any one person do? Yeah,

1:15:16

who cannot read the grimoire. Yeah, who

1:15:18

cannot read the grimoire? You know,

1:15:20

and maybe it's better to have someone

1:15:22

next to him who knows what the system is and who

1:15:25

is actually on the inside. And all

1:15:27

these sort of fallacies that are told and I've

1:15:29

been dealt again and again and again because like,

1:15:31

because it's all a mess. We're

1:15:33

all just your best. But no, I think you're

1:15:36

absolutely right. I think there's really, it's very interesting

1:15:38

story in terms of,

1:15:40

you know, if there are sort of

1:15:42

two leads to this tale and one

1:15:44

is following a very tried and tested

1:15:46

hero's journey of from the shadows into the

1:15:48

light. And the other one is going

1:15:51

from the light into the shadows, which is like a

1:15:53

kind of, you know, she starts as the star, Glinda

1:15:55

starts as the star and then through the kind of

1:15:57

first two acts of the film. Her

1:15:59

journey is. to give up her

1:16:02

lead, her main character syndrome, which again, it's

1:16:04

just like, it's a very, it's a sort

1:16:06

of twisted, it's not a hero, that's

1:16:09

not a story you see a lot because it's

1:16:11

not the forward propulsion story that we want to

1:16:13

see. What you want to see is the hero

1:16:15

goes from zero to hero and that's it, but

1:16:18

actually I think it's kind of a more interesting

1:16:21

journey to go, to learn about having

1:16:23

to step back and being like, actually,

1:16:26

this is not about me. And

1:16:28

this person could do this better

1:16:30

than me. Like that is actually

1:16:33

a very, that's sort of not quite

1:16:35

what Glinda does and sort of does and doesn't, but

1:16:37

there's a much more admirable quality to

1:16:39

that than simply going, I think I

1:16:41

might be wonderful. It turns out I

1:16:44

am. I have

1:16:46

this theory that everyone in their lives who

1:16:48

watched in vibes films wants someone in, some

1:16:50

older person to say to them, remarkable.

1:16:54

Remarkable. That's

1:16:57

what anyone wants. Remarkable. To look at them as

1:16:59

surprised and go, remarkable. And

1:17:02

it's all that Glinda thirsts for. She just

1:17:04

continues to, even though every, all of her

1:17:06

peers think she's incredible, her parents think she's

1:17:08

incredible, nobody who matters thinks she's incredible. And

1:17:11

you get that with Madame Marable? Madame

1:17:13

Marable, yeah, Dr. Dillamond. Michelle

1:17:16

Yeoh, thank God. Amazing,

1:17:18

incredible woman, incredible actress. I'm glad they didn't make

1:17:20

her sing any more than they have to. No,

1:17:22

she doesn't need to do a lot of singing

1:17:25

though. She just needs to be, just wear those

1:17:27

beautiful outfits and just be, just be it where

1:17:29

she directs the monkeys. Oh my God. Oh, that

1:17:31

kind of, I was like, this is the coolest

1:17:33

thing I've ever seen. Honestly, it's something of like,

1:17:35

cool guys walk away from explosions. Cool women's walk

1:17:37

away from monkeys sprouting waves. Tortured, tortured

1:17:40

monkeys. I think that for

1:17:42

me, cause like I was really curious as to how

1:17:44

they were gonna do that because in the stage show,

1:17:46

it's really effective. I feel like in

1:17:48

some ways, like in terms of pure spectacle, that is the moment

1:17:50

that stayed with me the most. It was like, you sort of

1:17:52

have the lights up. You know, she thinks she's just done it

1:17:54

to one monkey. And then the kind of

1:17:56

curtain rises, whatever it is, on the lights come on,

1:17:58

you realize it's this whole castle filled. with these

1:18:00

creatures and like, it's such an amazing

1:18:03

moment. And I feel like, and what they kind of

1:18:05

replace that with this really exciting chase instead of, you

1:18:08

know, with Linda and Elphaba running through the corridors and

1:18:10

the monkeys like, through the windows. Smashing through the window

1:18:12

and grabbing her. And I think that was much better

1:18:15

in terms, cause I think like the thing

1:18:17

about theater is that what you want to

1:18:19

build is like entire full pictures of like

1:18:21

moments that kind of encompass the entire, you

1:18:24

know, picture that you're seeing. Whereas in film, because it's

1:18:26

a moving medium really, like what you want is kind

1:18:28

of sequences that take you through. So right. So if

1:18:30

you think of Chicago, it's that moment with the red

1:18:33

backdrop and that kind of inside lock tango and all

1:18:35

that, you know, you're right. It is. You are trying

1:18:37

to create moments that you will remember when you go

1:18:39

out for a five break, you know, kind of thing.

1:18:42

Yeah, exactly. I think because what Chicago does incredibly well

1:18:44

is that what it just kind of goes, what if

1:18:46

this was a stage show? Like, let's just have two

1:18:48

worlds, the real world and of the

1:18:51

court and case and sub-lock tango where they just go,

1:18:53

let's just put it on the stage. Let's just do

1:18:55

it on the stage. And as you say, like, let's

1:18:57

use the powerful of the stage thing, which is, yeah,

1:18:59

pull the curtain down. All the women are there. Like,

1:19:01

there's nothing like pull the curtain down and it's there

1:19:03

on a theater stage. You know, we use it in

1:19:06

Mincemeen too. Like the finale, it's all, oh my God,

1:19:08

pull the curtain down and it's there because like it's

1:19:10

just so magical. Whereas pull the curtain down. And, you

1:19:12

know, if in that movie they panned out to reveal

1:19:14

that there was lots of monkeys there, I'm sure we'd

1:19:16

been like, well, shit. But like, oh,

1:19:19

but like having that the cinematic, you know,

1:19:21

trope of the chase and the running through,

1:19:23

like there's a reason that it's also because

1:19:25

you see the monkey army first because they're

1:19:27

walking up to the wizard with this kind

1:19:29

of the sentinels or whatever. And then you

1:19:32

walk back out and then they're all just like writhing on the

1:19:34

floor. Oh, my God. It's hard

1:19:36

work, really tricky monkey getting wings.

1:19:39

It's actually hard work in terms

1:19:41

of it was very graphic

1:19:43

horror. Yeah. And also like just as again, like

1:19:45

I guess I kind of guess that's what I mean

1:19:47

by in terms of like Easter eggs for people

1:19:49

who've seen the movie, but who've seen the movie

1:19:51

but don't care. Well, if you're like any musical nerd

1:19:54

watching the scene where it's like they're walking through

1:19:56

a bunch of monkeys like I

1:19:58

mean, I for one was certainly like. A

1:20:00

bunch of monkeys, is it? I

1:20:03

know, I'm not just going. But

1:20:05

yeah, that was really horrible. But

1:20:07

yeah, I think they did a good, I feel like what

1:20:09

they did a really great job of was like, is looking

1:20:11

at detail in every like, at every

1:20:13

magical moment that's in the musical and being

1:20:15

like, do we replicate this, a la

1:20:18

and moment of fine gravity, or

1:20:21

do we do a different thing that is

1:20:23

the film equivalent of the excitement of that

1:20:25

moment. And I feel like they made such

1:20:27

clear and like, good choices for all of

1:20:29

that. Because like, you know, dancing through life

1:20:32

on the stage, like you kind of, again,

1:20:34

it all happens kind of one place, like there's a

1:20:36

bit of stage training, lots of photography, but there's only

1:20:38

so many locations you kind of do on a stage.

1:20:41

Yeah. Like you kind of just have to fucking go

1:20:43

through it. Yeah, it was never a

1:20:45

song I liked before

1:20:47

this movie. And then I was just like, yeah, forever. And

1:20:50

the way that the sort of, we deserve each other

1:20:52

thing is woven through it, as it gets longer, always

1:20:54

gets me. Yeah. Loathing

1:20:58

as well, I thought, is great. And

1:21:00

again, like they think what they studied

1:21:03

that sequence, and like, I think that

1:21:05

particular dance style with the books, that's just ripped

1:21:07

straight from the musical. But I

1:21:09

think it's incredibly successful in the musical in a

1:21:12

way that does actually translate completely

1:21:14

directly to the film. Like you

1:21:16

have that, I think that clip's been shared

1:21:19

like a million times of Ariana walking with

1:21:21

a book, some people, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,

1:21:23

yeah. Because it's just really

1:21:25

satisfying. It's really satisfying sort

1:21:27

of flavour of dance that in a

1:21:29

way that just really does, you

1:21:32

can lift it straight out and put it in the screen version. But like, they

1:21:34

did a good job of being like, but not everything is that. Not

1:21:37

everything is just successful choice on the stage.

1:21:40

Let's just shove it in the musical because

1:21:43

I think there are, yeah, there

1:21:45

are musicals, movies that try to do it. And

1:21:48

I think like, what's

1:21:50

the story that kind of have do that

1:21:52

thing of like, it's magical on stage, it'll

1:21:54

be magical on screen. And

1:21:56

I don't, for me, it doesn't have

1:21:59

the same pattern. Yeah and

1:22:01

the things that they add in some places are just

1:22:04

magical. The whole popular

1:22:06

thing of like Glinda's

1:22:09

just little boxes popping open. The little boxes

1:22:11

are so nice aren't they? Why is just

1:22:13

stuff being so good. I feel like they

1:22:15

had like a whiteboard of things that are

1:22:18

important in this movie and like stuff was

1:22:20

circled like seven times. We want the stuff!

1:22:22

All the hat boxes, all her clothes, all

1:22:24

the little heel that like is extendable heel

1:22:27

to be a high heel. The only the

1:22:29

only victim of that whole thing is that

1:22:31

magical hat. That's the only thing. I

1:22:34

think it's okay. That's okay. On balance

1:22:36

it's alright that the hat becomes less

1:22:38

magical because of the plethora of things

1:22:40

around us. I'd rather have the stuff.

1:22:42

The stuff is so nice. Just like

1:22:44

as we just a magical school. I

1:22:47

mean yeah it just this you're

1:22:50

powerless to resist a magical school. You're powerless

1:22:52

to resist. You're instantly there. You're in the

1:22:54

little uniform. You're just like oh what would

1:22:57

I be studying? We're human beings. You

1:23:00

can't not. I feel like in the musical

1:23:02

the kind of school of it all again

1:23:04

because I think so much of a school

1:23:06

is the stuff in cinema. Like

1:23:08

the quills and the stationery

1:23:10

and why Hogwarts etc is so successful

1:23:12

because you just got so much stuff.

1:23:15

The books and the chairs and the

1:23:17

library and the thing. A

1:23:20

magical school is so built for screen.

1:23:22

And also like hierarchies are simple to

1:23:24

understand. It's essentially society shrunk down small

1:23:26

and people kiss sometimes. People kiss sometimes.

1:23:28

You can't go wrong with a magical

1:23:30

school. There's the canteen who's gonna sit

1:23:32

with who. I

1:23:35

feel like the school of it all is kind of is kind

1:23:38

of passed over a little bit in this in the

1:23:40

musical version just because there's just not enough time. It's

1:23:42

not the stuff you know. It's not the time not the stuff

1:23:45

and like again it's just like I feel like they went no

1:23:47

no no let's really lean into the school. Because

1:23:49

again we I mean so I mean we've

1:23:51

not talked about the fact that it is part one. Yes.

1:23:54

It is two and a half hours long for

1:23:56

part one of Wicked and I feel like you know

1:23:58

I think I've seen. people or reviews

1:24:00

that are like, oh, you know, we just in the school

1:24:02

for ages and like, we know this, it could have been

1:24:04

cut down. It could have been shorter. Wrong.

1:24:07

Wrong. But I remember on this very

1:24:10

podcast, when we talked about Chicago, which was when

1:24:12

Wicked was in production. And I think you literally

1:24:14

say on that podcast, you know, they're making two

1:24:16

movies out of it. And I'm like, what the

1:24:18

fuck? What adult I was. I know. And

1:24:20

then the second it was over, I just turned to

1:24:22

it, we can do the same thing again in a

1:24:24

year. I know, oh my God. Oh my God, make

1:24:26

it four movies. I know, literally, just give us, just

1:24:28

keep going. Whatever happens next, just keep on going. Stephen,

1:24:31

write some more songs. Let's just keep going.

1:24:33

Like they can't dismantle those sets. I

1:24:36

admit that now. There was something to

1:24:38

me that was very internally satisfying as well about

1:24:40

doing like a magical school. And like when you

1:24:42

do a magical school, you can't not think about

1:24:44

Hogwarts, right? And to have like a

1:24:47

movie that is a property that is very

1:24:49

specifically about, isn't it funny how people are

1:24:51

scapegoated when they pose no threat to anyone?

1:24:55

Isn't that interesting? How

1:24:57

people themselves are the victims of grace,

1:24:59

injustice are posed as being the ones

1:25:01

who are sort of the

1:25:04

enemies of society. I think you can do

1:25:06

it. Interesting, Joanne. Joanne, Joanne listening. Why

1:25:09

don't we learn something from our own tomes? But

1:25:12

I think, yeah, exactly what you say, which

1:25:14

is like you can do a large society,

1:25:16

like distilled small, because obviously with teenagers, you

1:25:18

can do the thing of like, I hate

1:25:20

you. Get out of my chair. You don't

1:25:22

sit there in a way that you can't

1:25:25

really do. I've grown up. Something too weird

1:25:27

or too cruel that could happen. Because a

1:25:29

contract we have accepted in cinema is

1:25:31

that if somebody commits

1:25:33

a crime that would normally put them in

1:25:35

the Hague, but

1:25:38

they do it in the context of being a mean high school

1:25:40

person. You just smash a coat through a teacher's office, it's like,

1:25:42

well, we hope this won't happen again. You

1:25:46

set a whole family on fire. You've

1:25:49

gone through six schools. No recess for you. Nobody says.

1:25:51

Double detention. 50 lines,

1:25:53

I must not set my family on fire. So

1:25:58

yeah, I think also with the. the school of it

1:26:00

all. Because again, I feel like, yes, we could have spent

1:26:03

less time in school, but I did not want to,

1:26:05

first of all. I loved every drop of it. Yeah, every

1:26:07

moment. And I think, again, with the

1:26:09

moment in the room, and the room was so great,

1:26:11

and all this, everything. And I think with the musical,

1:26:13

the thing about, so when they go

1:26:15

to the Emerald City, one short day,

1:26:17

the Emerald City, I feel like if the music

1:26:20

on stage has a big, this is a

1:26:22

location reveal, it's that, because the whole thing

1:26:24

is getting to the Emerald City. And I

1:26:26

think when you're watching the stage show, that

1:26:28

feels very, wow, this is the

1:26:30

wow of the movie. And all the costumes, it's really, it's

1:26:34

a real spectacular moment in the musical. But

1:26:37

I feel like, because, and so

1:26:39

for that reason, I feel like the school kind of couldn't

1:26:41

be. Like, you can't have two

1:26:43

kind of magical, sort of,

1:26:45

For budgeting reasons alone. For budget reasons alone. And

1:26:47

also, I just feel like you can burn out

1:26:50

on that kind of reveal, reveal, reveal on a

1:26:52

stage, because everything's truncated, because obviously it's just more

1:26:54

intense, there's less time, all the rest of it.

1:26:57

And this is part one, but yeah, but in

1:27:00

a film you have more time, this is part one. And so you've

1:27:02

got, we kind of got to do the slow

1:27:04

reveal of all the delicious school, the boat

1:27:06

and the thing, and the books and the

1:27:09

tea and the library and the dance and

1:27:11

all the rest of it. And the tiny

1:27:13

little touches that I really appreciated, because it's

1:27:15

such a set, and there's no denying

1:27:18

that. But they kind of, they make a

1:27:20

lot of wind and weather. Like there's like,

1:27:22

for me and my sort of personal head,

1:27:24

kind of, they shot up one day and

1:27:26

the rushes, it looks wrong, add

1:27:29

wind. Now it looks like they're

1:27:31

in a location, because Blinda's hair is moving. And

1:27:33

you know? I thought they were just sticks the

1:27:35

head out the window. I like hair. I

1:27:38

think the book is

1:27:42

really good, the

1:27:44

script is really good, I think. Like it really,

1:27:46

I feel like I never felt like

1:27:48

I was in a scene for like too long.

1:27:50

I feel like again, with musicals on

1:27:53

stage, there's a real thing of everyone

1:27:55

wants your scenes to be as short as possible, because like everyone

1:27:57

wants to get to the songs. And not even, not even. kind

1:27:59

of like consciously I feel like once you're in a song like

1:28:02

you're so heightened that when you drop out of a song it

1:28:04

feels like it takes longer than it would if it was a play. You're

1:28:07

kind of going like but in musical

1:28:09

time this scene is like four hours long

1:28:11

just like let's just go and I think as

1:28:13

a you know as someone who's you know

1:28:15

trying to write musicals and stuff we're trying to

1:28:17

write musicals. Well we only written one so musicals

1:28:19

would be a great addition but like yeah

1:28:21

being very aware of how much time are we

1:28:24

spending not in the music. Yeah because I

1:28:26

remember watching earlier versions of Operation Mincemeat and there

1:28:28

being a lot more talking and a lot

1:28:30

more plot more

1:28:32

spoken plot. Yeah a lot more spoken plot like and even a

1:28:34

song so I mean yeah and like and that was the thing

1:28:36

we had to learn I think by doing it which was kind

1:28:39

of being like if this was a telly script

1:28:41

you know we could sit in this scene for a

1:28:43

bit longer and like but we definitely I think once

1:28:46

you're on a stage you really start to feel the

1:28:48

audience be a bit like yeah okay yeah can

1:28:50

we just let's just get on with it now and

1:28:52

I feel like although we obviously did

1:28:54

spend more time in dialogue in the movie first of all

1:28:56

I feel like you can because feel like as a medium

1:28:58

you know that's kind of what people expect from screen anyway

1:29:01

to stay in to stay in sort

1:29:03

of dialogue mode but actually I didn't I never

1:29:05

felt like I was being dragged into scenes or

1:29:07

out staying in scenes I think also because what

1:29:09

helps is like you've got quite a lot of

1:29:12

injections of new stuff happening constantly like Fierro doesn't

1:29:14

end up for quite a long time like it's

1:29:16

like you're a good like what half an hour

1:29:18

45 minutes into the movie before that happens. There's

1:29:20

a lot of parts bubbling at once and again

1:29:23

which is again something that you can do really

1:29:25

effectively in a school location more than anywhere else

1:29:27

or even in an office location where you have

1:29:29

faith that the audience knows the boundaries of the

1:29:32

location so therefore it's okay for several different things

1:29:34

to be happening at once you know what I

1:29:36

mean because it doesn't feel overwhelming it's like we're

1:29:38

talking about the whole world yeah we're talking about

1:29:41

this one school and so we have Elphaba and

1:29:43

Learning Magic we have Glinda being jealous of that

1:29:45

they have them hating each other we have the

1:29:47

sister who is like our

1:29:49

thing with Bach and then we have you

1:29:52

know it's like and the animals as well

1:29:54

like it's just but it never

1:29:56

feels like too much or too busy and it would in

1:29:58

most other films And it's hard as well, isn't it? Because

1:30:00

I feel like I saw a couple of reviews that were

1:30:03

like, that didn't understand why we were spending so much time

1:30:05

with Nessa Rose and Boc. And I was kind of, it

1:30:07

was interesting because it was like that thing that we've been

1:30:09

talking about, which is like, it's so hard to come to

1:30:11

this with no context. It's almost impossible. Because I was like,

1:30:15

oh yeah, of course, I guess. Because like, you know,

1:30:17

for me watching it and for people who know the

1:30:19

story and who know Wizard of Oz, it may be

1:30:21

even, or, and you know,

1:30:24

the layers of how much you can know about this going

1:30:26

into this movie. But being like, well, Nessa Rose is going

1:30:28

to turn out to be the Wicked Witch of the East.

1:30:30

Like, it's really important that she is in this movie. Like

1:30:32

you can't dismiss her, but being like, but would you know

1:30:34

that? Like, would you cast your eyes

1:30:36

and mind back to going, but don't you

1:30:38

remember the Wicked Witch of the West has

1:30:40

a sister, the Wicked Witch of the East and

1:30:43

the house gets dropped on her at the beginning

1:30:45

of the Wizard of Oz. That's why this

1:30:47

character is important. And it's very, it's very

1:30:49

funny and kind of magical again to me to

1:30:51

be in 2024 being like, if you do

1:30:53

not remember the subplot beats of this very,

1:30:55

very old movie where the sister of the

1:30:57

main character gets killed at the beginning of the

1:30:59

house. It's a big ask. It's a big

1:31:01

ask. That's why these characters are hit. Like,

1:31:03

but again, it's like, but

1:31:05

it's very comforting to me as, as like a lover,

1:31:08

a lover of, you know, watching movies and a lover

1:31:10

of theater to be like, it's,

1:31:12

but then it is important. Like, yes, that

1:31:14

is, that is the reason, the reason that

1:31:16

we are watching Bock and Nessa Rose in

1:31:19

this movie in 2024 is because it was

1:31:21

so good back in the 1930s,

1:31:24

when this woman got crushed by

1:31:26

a house. We really needed

1:31:29

a backstory for the crushed woman. Like in the

1:31:31

Ruby, oh my God. I mean, just like, it's

1:31:33

just, I feel like the, I think one

1:31:35

of the reasons I think like, that like

1:31:37

people really like Operation Mincemeat is it kind

1:31:40

of, it, there's so many

1:31:42

kind of like little interwoveny threads that there's

1:31:44

a lot of in-jokey, that there's like, there's

1:31:46

like a sort of sense of humor-y kind

1:31:48

of building an in-joke thing that, that

1:31:51

sort of has sprung out on side and

1:31:53

outside the community. But I feel similarly that

1:31:55

I feel like it's so nice to have

1:31:57

like a language of Wizard of Oz, like a

1:31:59

language of like- like both Wizard of Oz and

1:32:01

like even like Toto and like the yellow brick

1:32:03

road. Like these things that everyone knows about that don't

1:32:06

exist, but you know them. They

1:32:08

don't importantly, they don't exist. But like, but to

1:32:10

us as a literally as a creature, as a

1:32:12

creature who is human living, but like, to be

1:32:14

like, but they do that, everyone

1:32:16

knows this. Yeah, they are more known than most

1:32:19

Bible stories. Yeah, I love the, I feel like

1:32:21

that and like Alice in Wonderland, like there are

1:32:23

a few stories like, you know, Narnia and like,

1:32:25

there are a few, and I feel like, yeah,

1:32:27

probably like, you know, Harry Potter and maybe his

1:32:29

dark materials as well, but you know, different,

1:32:31

yeah, domination of importance, depending on who you

1:32:34

are, but like. It's a fascinating thing when

1:32:36

something passes in from being a story or

1:32:38

being an intellectual property to being a kind

1:32:40

of a shorthand that all humans just use.

1:32:42

Basically a myth, like we kind of created,

1:32:44

like it's still ongoing, like we're still made

1:32:47

kind of Medusa and Perseus and like all

1:32:49

the rest of it. We just

1:32:51

know that they're not real, but it doesn't make them

1:32:53

less real because we still can't. Oh

1:32:55

no, no, no, I get emotional. And

1:32:59

like, not only do we like still think

1:33:01

of them, we're still like making up stories

1:33:04

for them now, like. Yeah. And

1:33:06

like, I don't know, it just feels, it

1:33:08

feels important and it feels like just so

1:33:10

nice for it to be so dis, you

1:33:12

know, for us to, particularly now, to

1:33:15

feel like such a desperate group of fucking

1:33:17

people on this planet, be like, there are

1:33:19

still things that many, many people share up

1:33:21

and play with, you know, not just like

1:33:23

knowledge of the fucking past and like the

1:33:25

things, and I know how to fucking do

1:33:27

your taxes, like things that are dollies that

1:33:29

we play with, like that we just go on and go

1:33:31

to the playground and be like, what if the Wicked Witch

1:33:35

went to school with this other girl? Yeah, yeah,

1:33:37

yeah. And we'll make them do things together and

1:33:39

then we'll sing songs about them. And like, it's

1:33:42

very hopeful to me in a way that probably is pointless.

1:33:44

Can I tell you about a moment that has nothing to

1:33:46

do with this? I would love that for me. I love

1:33:48

you. One time I was

1:33:51

walking Silve and already an

1:33:53

emotional story and

1:33:55

this, and I was passing the

1:33:57

bus stop and there was this girl who saw her

1:34:00

just like had like a reaction was like, ah! And

1:34:04

then she kind of she sort of didn't speak in the

1:34:06

English, but she kind of motioned like,

1:34:08

can I pet your dog, which is the same in

1:34:10

every language. And I was like, yeah, yeah, sure. And

1:34:12

there's always that moment when someone wants to pet your

1:34:14

dog where like they really want to be with the

1:34:17

dog, but because of the contract of human souls, they

1:34:19

have to say something to you, which is really difficult

1:34:21

when you don't speak the same language. But she also

1:34:23

my dog is fantastic. And she had to say hi

1:34:25

to her. So I totally understood

1:34:28

her dilemma. And so she was just petting

1:34:30

Sylvan just talking to her. And then she sort of looked up to me

1:34:32

and she went, Frasier. Because

1:34:41

sorry, because because Sylvan's Jacque Russell Terrier. Yeah. And

1:34:43

it was one of the most

1:34:47

like lovely moments of being like, Oh,

1:34:50

yeah, we like we have these things

1:34:52

in common that we don't like that

1:34:54

like beyond language. Frasier.

1:34:56

Frasier. Frasier. Fuck

1:35:03

man, that's so nice. I know. But

1:35:05

that's kind of what we're talking about. Boil

1:35:07

down. And that's again, like, maybe like kind

1:35:09

of all odd being like, can I give

1:35:11

a language? Can you help share in this?

1:35:14

Can we make this together? Can we be

1:35:16

in this together? And like, let's go back

1:35:18

to what we were saying at the very

1:35:20

beginning. And I'm sorry if we haven't lit

1:35:22

on singular moments enough for some listeners, we

1:35:24

just have just watched this movie. And it's

1:35:26

just washed over us like in this great,

1:35:28

beautiful, hopeful wave. But like to go back

1:35:31

to what we were saying at the very, very start, like, you

1:35:33

do sometimes I do feel

1:35:35

like, Oh, are we just all lower fucking

1:35:38

streaming platforms and addicted to our phones, blah,

1:35:40

blah, blah. Are we entertaining ourselves to death?

1:35:42

Have we put entertainment and the arts to high

1:35:45

up in our culture? And the answer is yes.

1:35:47

Like the things that we expect from entertainers that

1:35:49

we don't expect from public officials is like gross

1:35:51

and sick to me. But at the same time,

1:35:54

it's like, it's a dream of a

1:35:56

common language, you know? Yeah. And

1:35:58

also just to common language. language and like an

1:36:01

escape into into like

1:36:03

into into into magic that we have actually created

1:36:05

like a magic that is real that is that

1:36:07

is the that is the work and blood and

1:36:09

sweat of people who are just doing what

1:36:12

they love incredibly hard and well and

1:36:15

just that pouring out from every

1:36:17

frame of this movie just being

1:36:19

like every single decision every single

1:36:22

moment so much care and attention

1:36:24

and love just so that for us

1:36:26

at 10am on a and less square cinema

1:36:28

can just like hold hands and be like cinema

1:36:31

like magic she still got it she still got

1:36:34

it and you know and alphabets brave and it

1:36:36

is hard and she will be brave she will

1:36:38

be brave so there's

1:36:40

a couple things we gotta talk about for example

1:36:42

we haven't spoken about Jeff Goldblum or Bo and

1:36:45

Yang yet oh god okay well who would you

1:36:47

want to start with I

1:36:50

feel like he's so rarely like the final

1:36:52

thing you talk about he's usually yeah Jeff Goldblum

1:36:54

is in the room he sent for an

1:36:56

incentive it's that wonderful thing where and it's

1:36:59

such an important thing to remember if you

1:37:01

make stories of like if you if you're

1:37:03

if you're introducing someone late in the ensemble

1:37:05

who's incredibly important how that person needs to

1:37:07

be a completely different energy to everyone you've

1:37:09

met so far yes yes yes so we've

1:37:11

had madam Maribel I can't I don't know

1:37:13

why I can't Maribel who is like obviously

1:37:15

she is her own brand of kind of

1:37:17

obviously menacing from the very beginning and we

1:37:20

have the school bullies and we have we

1:37:22

have loads of little freaks like Sierra comes

1:37:24

in you know like you know I used

1:37:26

to say like I think what this is

1:37:28

a really great musical for is kind of

1:37:30

going and here's the different thing and here's

1:37:32

a new thing and it's kind of all the way through and

1:37:35

I think yeah as you say like when you finally

1:37:37

meet the wizard yeah you wanted to be Jeff Goldblum

1:37:39