0:02

Hi, I'm Wendy Zukerman, the host of

0:04

Science vs. and on Science Versus

0:06

we tell these bonkers science stories

0:08

that matter to you and

0:10

me. Whether it's a story about

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0:15

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0:19

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Science vs. that's Science vs. whatever podcast

0:31

app you're using. And

0:33

so so today I'm telling you

0:35

the story of how a lab

0:37

that designs nuclear weapons helped

0:40

catch a serial killer. Hi,

0:47

I'm Wendy Zukerman and listening to Science

0:49

vs. Today

0:52

the show, how a lab that

0:55

designs nuclear weapons. helped

0:57

catch. a serial

0:59

killer. And

1:06

if you're gonna do do crime. you

1:08

bring in the true crime queen, host

1:10

of Crime Junkie, Ashley Flowers, welcome to

1:12

Science to Science vs. Hello, I'm so excited

1:14

to be here. So that a

1:16

lot of people might not know

1:18

about you is that you graduated from

1:20

biomedical science, that was your degree.

1:22

It was. was. we are And we are

1:25

both have this degree. I thought

1:27

I really wanted to be a

1:29

doctor when I was young and

1:31

I was, I I think, fortunate enough

1:33

to have to work full -time to

1:35

put myself through. school. I worked

1:37

at a hospital for all five

1:39

years and went to school at

1:41

night and I got to work

1:44

side -by -side with residents who

1:46

have to be before doctor and

1:48

I was like oh oh, that's not the

1:50

life I want. Right. I

1:53

made a bit of a pivot and

1:55

I finished my degree with actually a

1:57

focus in research. And so what do

1:59

you like? about science. I

2:01

like facts and I think

2:03

so much in life can

2:05

be so subjective. And

2:07

I love about science is it

2:09

feels like there are real answers

2:11

and not just opinions. Like sometimes get

2:13

to be black and white and

2:16

that's not very often do you

2:18

get that? Yes. Yes. I think that's

2:20

one of the reasons I love

2:22

science too. It's a way to understand

2:24

the world. If science is your

2:26

side piece, I guess, your true

2:28

love is really mysteries that I've heard

2:30

you say that you are obsessed

2:32

with solving mysteries. Obsessed. What is it

2:34

about a mystery that just grabs

2:37

you and you you let go?

2:39

I think I'm just an overall like

2:41

a very curious person. The more

2:43

that I've like really drilled into

2:45

it and I I want to,

2:47

I I want the answers to everything. The

2:49

universe, I want the answers to all the unsolved

2:51

mysteries, Like like to, give them to me. Well,

2:54

today we have a real mystery for you

2:56

and it's got a whole bunch of science

2:58

in it. So should we jump in? Let's

3:01

do it. It's

3:06

two days after Christmas

3:08

in 1996 and a

3:10

woman named Selby Asatrian rushed

3:12

to Glendale Adventist Medical

3:14

Center in California. She's

3:17

75 years old and is having

3:19

trouble breathing. One

3:21

hospital worker told the LA Times

3:23

about her. He said, she's a sweet

3:25

lady. She got treatment at the

3:27

hospital And December 30th,

3:29

she's breathing on her own. Things are

3:32

looking pretty good for her. But then three

3:34

a half hours later, Salbi

3:36

was dead. That

3:39

same day, Elinora

3:41

goes into Glendale Adventist.

3:44

She has some chronic illnesses, a a

3:46

nasty case of pneumonia. On

3:48

New Year's Eve, her son Larry, he said

3:50

in a documentary that she was

3:53

sitting upright and breathing as best as

3:55

she could. They apparently have

3:57

this toast and say, year will

3:59

be better. Oh, no. no.

4:01

But on January 2nd, Larry

4:03

sees a message on his answering machine, and

4:05

it's from the hospital. His

4:07

had died. and

4:12

they're just toasting the day before. Yeah. Yeah.

4:16

Oh my gosh. similar

4:18

situation happens again. Jose

4:21

Alfaro Sr. He was

4:23

a father, he'd fought in World War II. He

4:25

arrives at Glendale with severe pneumonia. and

4:28

two days later is dead. Hmm,

4:31

and at the time. time, These

4:33

deaths are sad, of course, but

4:35

they don't raise any eyebrows because

4:37

these patients, they were sick, had chronic

4:39

illnesses, you you know, it's a hospital. People

4:42

die. die. And how close together are all three

4:44

of these, like Like close? Really

4:46

close, within days of each other. Okay.

4:50

A few months later though, Rumors

4:53

have been circulating that the deaths

4:55

of patients like these didn't happen just

4:57

because they were sick and elderly,

4:59

but that these people were killed on

5:01

purpose by someone who works at

5:03

the hospital. The is

5:06

that someone is injecting something into

5:08

their IV. Well,

5:10

tell me what your face is doing right

5:12

now. Well, I'm just, what

5:14

do you mean rumours? Like I feel

5:16

like this isn't something that should be

5:18

a rumour people know that someone's walking around

5:20

like people. Yeah, we're going to get into what

5:22

these are, who

5:24

is blaming? Okay.

5:27

What What on happened here and

5:29

the hell lab that

5:31

develops nuclear bombs

5:33

got involved? Naturally. Naturally.

5:35

Are you in? I'm in. We're in. do

5:37

this just after the break. do this

5:40

just after the break.

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Please enjoy responsibly. Welcome

7:25

back. We've just found

7:27

out that patients at a

7:29

hospital in California are dying

7:31

under perhaps suspicious circumstances. Ashley

7:34

Flowers, host of Crime Junkie, here

7:36

with us. Hey, Ashley. Hello. So

7:38

it's now 1997. now 1997. Whispers

7:40

are going around that

7:42

one guy might be

7:44

killing these patients and

7:46

his name is Efren Saldivar.

7:50

So talked about him with journalist

7:52

Sarah Skoles, who wrote a book

7:54

about nuclear weapons and across

7:56

this case. So told us

7:58

that back in Vertigo Hills High School, school, Efren

8:01

was a a bit of an odd ball. He

8:04

worked at a grocery store, he played

8:06

the He didn't have a ton of

8:08

friends, but he was a pretty well liked

8:10

kid and was kind of like leader

8:12

of the misfits. In

8:14

the senior Wills section

8:17

of his high school

8:19

yearbook at Hills, he wrote, I

8:22

Efren of great and hunk

8:24

body hereby will

8:27

three of Vertigo's female population

8:29

my enduring love and

8:32

passion, the right to

8:34

preserve me in their hearts

8:36

and souls for the rest of

8:38

their lives and other times. Eternally

8:41

yours mine, Efren

8:44

started large. Literally

8:47

Efren, one asked. Like what?

8:51

I mean, it's Real oddball

8:53

energy there. he actually of

8:56

hunk body? You

8:59

know, it was the eyes, 80s.

9:01

um, he was pretty nerdy. A

9:04

hunk would not be, if

9:06

if I was making a a film, a

9:08

a high school film, he would

9:10

not be cast in the hunk category. It

9:12

would more be in sort of the dweeby

9:17

category. I love it, Okay.

9:19

So Efren makes it through

9:21

senior year but ultimately drops out

9:23

of high school. So he's working at

9:25

a grocery store and And day. His

9:28

came in in a medical

9:30

uniform. He had a friend who was

9:32

working at a a hospital and he, he He

9:34

just really liked this guy's uniform. And

9:37

he was like, I guess I'll do that.

9:39

I guess I'll get a medical career.

9:41

I like the clothing. scrubs. Yeah.

9:43

Is he talking about scrubs? He

9:46

liked scrubs. Which sound

9:48

like a weird reason to go into

9:50

the healthcare profession, but you know, yeah, he

9:52

he tamed cute fit. This as good as any

9:54

reason. I like cute fit. I like it. It's, it's.

9:56

Pajamas. Like used to wear scrubs. They're pajamas.

9:58

That's what about. I think the person

10:01

who came in had a stethoscope, so that

10:03

might be kind of cool well. well.

10:05

Just like radiating power, Yeah, I power,

10:07

get yeah, it. So Efren enrolls in

10:09

a respiratory therapy program and respiratory

10:11

respiratory therapists help patients who

10:13

have trouble breathing. So they

10:15

give patients drugs, oxygen, and

10:17

manage ventilators, stuff like that.

10:19

Okay. And so so Efren

10:21

is just 19 years old, in

10:23

1989, he gets a job at

10:25

Glendale Adventist Medical Center. see where this

10:27

is going. This is the place

10:29

where the patients at the start

10:32

of the episode died. So

10:37

Glendale Adventist, part of Efren's job was

10:39

to take care of really sick

10:41

elderly patients. And Efren is put

10:43

on the graveyard shift. So he

10:45

starts moonlighting and working at other

10:47

jobs too the day, other hospitals. So

10:50

Efren is working all these jobs.

10:52

He's a bit overwhelmed. And

10:54

at one point, he starts

10:57

gaining some notoriety at

10:59

the hospital. So here's Sarah, our

11:01

journalist again. He had

11:03

a reputation at work for having a

11:05

magic syringe. What did they mean by

11:07

that? Not magic in the positive

11:09

way, but magic in the deadly

11:11

way. His

11:15

died faster than

11:18

other people's patients. That's

11:20

not magic, that's murder, right? Magic feels

11:23

like a really weird word to describe

11:25

it. And this is where

11:27

from reporting about this hospital

11:29

at the time, it it

11:31

seemed like the health workers,

11:33

particularly the respiratory therapists, had

11:35

this really, you you could

11:37

call it a dark

11:39

sense of humor. They

11:41

just, they played practical jokes on

11:43

each other. So worked at a

11:46

hospital, having worked with ton of people

11:48

in law enforcement, I have seen

11:50

this in a place where you

11:52

see a lot of death or

11:54

there's like lot of trauma, having

11:56

that like dark sense of humor tends

11:58

to be, be I've seen a way

12:00

that a of people deal with it.

12:02

it's not even super surprising to

12:04

me to like that in the hospital

12:06

setting. Yeah. But still. And then

12:08

sort of other things start happening

12:10

that make it harder to pass

12:12

off as a joke. So here's Sarah.

12:15

Someone had seen him putting something

12:17

in an IV line that they

12:19

thought shouldn't be there. A

12:21

co -worker also says he sees

12:23

an empty syringe and a bunch

12:25

of drugs in Efren's locker. Drugs

12:27

morphine, and this medication

12:29

called succinylcholine, which is going

12:32

to become important later. OK.

12:34

Okay. so in April of

12:36

1997, of 1997, a co -worker ends

12:38

up reporting Efren to a

12:40

supervisor. But the supervisor

12:42

doesn't know about the drugs in the

12:44

locker. So So really don't have that much

12:46

to go on. It's just kind of rumor a

12:49

place where there's a lot of rumors

12:51

jokes going around. But still they

12:53

look into the hospital records to see

12:55

if Efren's patients are dying more

12:57

often than other patients. Hmm. And

13:01

Didn't find anything because his patients

13:03

weren't actually dying at a

13:05

higher rate than anyone else's? Oh,

13:07

yeah. So So didn't find anything unusual

13:10

here. They let it go. Efren

13:12

keeps working. And it's not

13:14

until almost a year later, in

13:16

February 1998, that the

13:18

hospital receives another tip. From

13:21

someone who says that

13:24

there is a respiratory therapist

13:26

who, who, the quote is, helped

13:28

patient die fast. And

13:30

is this like euthanasia situation?

13:33

or what does that like, what do they

13:35

mean? The guy on the phone

13:37

ends up being a pretty dodgy

13:39

guy with a criminal record and seems

13:41

to be implying that if he

13:43

gets an extra he'll give ,000, he'll

13:46

give more information. Wow. He's

13:48

basically extorting the hospital. Yeah.

13:50

And so this time, the

13:52

hospital calls in the

13:54

Glendale Police Department. And And

13:56

the way, we did reach out to the

13:58

hospital to ask them. about parts of this story.

14:01

And let me guess, they didn't want to

14:03

talk? Yeah. Yeah, they said. said. Let

14:05

me finish that for you. Thank

14:07

you. Yes, Yes, questions should be

14:09

directed at Glendale Police Department. So

14:14

enter Detective Sergeant John McKillip from the

14:16

Glendale Police Department. He

14:19

is put onto this case

14:21

and John and his team

14:23

start poking around And

14:26

John told us that he is actually

14:28

not buying this idea that Efren is

14:30

a a killer. I

14:32

was a skeptic because it just seemed

14:34

odd. The whole thing seemed odd. What

14:36

was so odd about it? Well,

14:38

I mean, to to be honest, you're

14:41

talking about. someone

14:43

to extort money. out

14:46

of the hospital to give information versus

14:49

a a major serial killer. I just

14:52

thought it was a bunch of bull,

14:55

so to speak. How

14:57

are you feeling at this point, Ash? What's

14:59

your spidey sense of you? I mean, I well,

15:01

I understand what he's saying. And it's funny, like, I

15:03

feel like The way that I'm at least

15:05

hearing this is that the hospital really brings

15:07

in the police because of the extortion, not

15:09

because of the threat of

15:12

somebody actually killing their patients. Yeah, that's John's

15:14

memory of it as well, Yeah. Yeah,

15:16

yeah, yeah, yeah. Gotcha,

15:18

gotcha, gotcha, John. So I understand why

15:20

he would just kind of come

15:22

in with that thought of like, well,

15:24

this can't be be true. It's just some guy.

15:26

he wants $50,000 to ,000 to out a serial

15:28

killer, like there's no way. I

15:30

would probably think the same thing too. Yeah.

15:34

But still, sort everything out,

15:36

on March 11th, 1998, John's

15:38

partner, Detective William Curry, calls into

15:40

the station just to ask

15:43

him some questions. But

15:45

John actually had something else to do that

15:47

day. Will gonna bring Efren into interview and

15:49

I'm like, I'm gonna go play hockey. So

15:51

I went to my hockey. game. You

15:54

so sure that is silly Yeah,

15:56

exactly. I

15:58

love it. Right. No No need. take

16:01

care of this. But it

16:03

turns out this was not silly. When

16:05

the cops start questioning Efren, he

16:08

confesses to killing

16:10

dozens of patients. All

16:13

they had to do was ask follow

16:15

-up questions and the dude just

16:17

folds. Pretty quickly, he says he

16:19

killed to 50 people. to 50 people. Yeah.

16:24

Over what of time? It's pretty vague at

16:26

this point. The cops just found

16:28

it very strange, particularly given this attitude

16:30

of, I'm to go play hockey. Sure,

16:33

bring him in. They want him

16:35

to do a polygraph. The way that

16:37

the cops remember it is just of

16:39

a sudden he starts talking and they

16:41

were in the room Oh, oh, oh. Someone

16:44

Someone a pen. Break like, he down. this down?

16:46

Exactly, exactly. And so John is playing

16:48

hockey. I I mean, they literally pulled

16:50

me off the hockey rink to tell

16:52

me, hey, your on the phone. There's something

16:54

going on. You need to go. And And

16:56

I picked up the phone, Will

16:58

says, this guy's confessing rolling over. to You need to

17:01

get in here right now. You know, now

17:03

we're talking about murders. Oh,

17:05

my God. So not only did

17:07

he say that he killed

17:09

patients, but he also told the

17:11

cops how he did it.

17:14

Like, sometimes he would kill them

17:16

with these drugs. He said

17:18

he either used a drug called

17:20

Pavilon or one called succinylcholine. which

17:22

is what they found in his locker.

17:24

Wow. Wow. Exactly. Does he say why? At

17:28

the time, he he said that he

17:30

did it to ease the suffering

17:32

of these patients. But we had our

17:34

home girl over here who's like, cheersing

17:36

to a brand new year. Yes. Yes.

17:39

It doesn't, it doesn't really

17:41

make sense. He sort of fashions

17:43

himself as a little bit

17:45

of an angel of death type

17:47

in that room that he didn't

17:49

like seeing the patients suffering,

17:52

says things like that. Okay. So

17:57

we wanted to know a little

17:59

bit more about what they... drugs in

18:01

the body and why they're used by healthcare

18:03

workers. So talked about

18:05

this with Dr Ian Musgrave and he's

18:07

a molecular pharmacologist at the University

18:09

of Adelaide in Australia. He told

18:11

us that Pavillon and

18:14

succinylcholine, they with how a

18:16

particular neurotransmitter works in our

18:18

body and ultimately they

18:20

can paralysed your muscles. They

18:22

the nerve signalling, so your muscles

18:24

just stop working. Now

18:27

you be saying okay, why you want

18:29

to paralysed muscles. That is is, if

18:31

you don't want to kill someone why are

18:33

we using these drugs in hospitals

18:35

and And these drugs are sometimes

18:37

given to patients before surgery and

18:39

it helps doctors to intubate them you

18:42

know put the tube down their

18:44

throats. it can stop you from

18:46

gagging or if you wake up

18:48

during let's say surgery it would keep

18:50

you from moving around so a

18:52

scalpel doesn't slip. But because

18:54

these drugs paralysed the muscles that allow

18:56

you to breathe, if you're using them

18:59

in a medical setting you have

19:01

to give someone a breathing tube

19:03

or a respirator so you're giving

19:05

them oxygen artificially. Of course

19:07

if you give a

19:09

paralyzing dose of these drugs putting

19:12

in a breathing tube and without

19:14

artificially respiring them guess what happens.

19:16

Everything shuts down. They die. Oh.

19:19

suffocate suffocate they can't breathe. What

19:21

would it be like to

19:23

die like that? It would You're incredibly

19:25

horrible. that you're paralysed you can't

19:28

move and you can't react you're

19:30

suffocating to death. If some

19:32

of his victims weren't unconscious they

19:34

would have felt it. That

19:36

would have definitely felt it. Is

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Game catalog varies by region and over time. Okay

20:34

that's the ad. You can go back to doing whatever you were doing

20:36

now. Just like suffering.

20:39

Yeah, that's right, Because you

20:41

it Ian, We talked

20:44

about it and he said it would

20:46

be almost like drowning because you're not.

20:48

anesthetized. Right. Necessarily. So drugs don't conk out

20:50

or, you know, you to sleep. So

20:53

you just can't breathe. And

20:55

you can't even like move or scream.

20:57

Oh gosh, I can't imagine. Awful,

20:59

awful. Now is worth saying that in

21:01

confession, according to the cops, he

21:03

said that he would only do

21:05

this to patients who are

21:07

unconscious. I I don't like no way.

21:10

All 40 of them? Yeah, I don't know

21:12

how we can know that for sure, exactly. So

21:15

cops hold Efren's Saldivar on suspicion

21:17

of murder. But

21:19

even though he'd given this detailed confession

21:21

admitted to killing dozens of people, in in

21:24

the U.S., that's not enough to go on because

21:26

of this rule. that's called Corpus

21:28

delecti. Yeah, so tell us about

21:30

it, it. body of the crime. tell

21:32

us what it is. So corpus delectae,

21:34

you can't convict someone just based

21:36

on a confession. Their confession has

21:38

to actually match some kind of

21:40

physical evidence. We're basically like, if you

21:42

you took the confession away, you

21:44

have to still be able to

21:46

prove that They did it

21:48

it some other means, whether that's

21:51

physical evidence, circumstantial evidence, other witnesses,

21:53

but you should not be able

21:55

to convict someone just by them

21:57

saying, I did this thing. Yeah. case,

22:00

All they have is a confession. They

22:02

don't have any physical evidence because these

22:04

patients really just could have died because they

22:06

were sick. Yeah. sick. Yeah. Okay. So So John, the

22:08

cops hold for a couple of days while

22:10

they're doing some detective work, but in

22:12

48 hours, what you're going to come up with.

22:14

And so they have to let him

22:17

go. And when he gets

22:19

out, Efren goes on national television

22:21

and says that he lied about

22:23

the confession. And And Sarah,

22:25

our journalist, us that Efren

22:29

basically says, I didn't

22:31

do it. I was depressed and

22:33

suicidal and thought this was a

22:35

way out. And the detective pressured

22:37

me. so I confess

22:39

anymore. A way out of

22:41

what? A way out of life. He

22:43

sort of gave this idea

22:45

that he was really depressed and

22:47

basically suicidal and thought that

22:50

if he confessed to these killings,

22:52

then maybe he would be

22:54

given the death penalty and then that

22:56

would be his way out. Okay.

22:58

But then he changed his

23:00

mind, he says. I guess

23:02

so. I guess so. He also said

23:04

at the time that he was

23:06

taking Valium and other sedatives and

23:08

barely remembered what he said to the

23:10

cops. And even a

23:12

hospital spokesman around that

23:14

time said, quote, we don't

23:16

know if anything happened. End

23:19

quote. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Did

23:21

he get, you know,

23:23

in a room and pressure? Like, an easy thing

23:25

to say. Like, do Do you also say

23:27

the thing that's been weighing on you?

23:29

And then all of a sudden when like

23:31

gravity of what that means and like the

23:33

consequences are, when the gravity of that

23:35

sets in, the story changes? Like, oh, maybe I, oh,

23:38

gosh, I didn't know what I was like saying. Yeah.

23:41

Yeah. But meanwhile, the

23:44

the medical board responsible for

23:46

respiratory therapists suspends Efren's license to

23:48

practice. he's no longer working

23:50

at the hospital. And

23:53

the cops, cops like John, they're

23:56

not totally buying that his

23:58

confession was a lie. because

24:00

it was just so specific,

24:02

the drugs he used. You

24:04

know, yet how, exactly he did

24:06

it. It felt like a

24:08

weird thing to just say. So

24:12

cops stay on the case

24:14

and actually create a task

24:16

force to find out what

24:18

is going on here. And

24:20

they start going through every

24:22

patient that died under Efren's watch, and

24:24

they're looking for suspicious cases.

24:26

And this is a huge

24:28

task. It meant wading through

24:30

more than a thousand complicated

24:32

medical records. I was completely I

24:34

mean, we're cops, we're doctors. So we

24:37

had to learn how to

24:39

read medical charts and do

24:41

all that stuff. quickly, to

24:43

become experts something that none of

24:45

us had expertise in. But

24:47

they talk to the doctors and they learn

24:49

fast. And they're

24:51

looking for patients who weren't

24:53

given Pavillon or succinylcholine legitimately at the

24:55

time of their death. So

24:57

didn't need for surgery. They

25:00

start looking for patients

25:03

as well, who at

25:05

the time of their death

25:07

had this particular pattern

25:09

in their breathing and

25:11

heart rate moments before they

25:13

died that might suggest

25:16

they were given Pavalon

25:18

or succinyl choline. They're

25:20

also on the hunt for situations like

25:22

Salbiostatrians the other patients we talked

25:24

about at the start of the

25:26

show where they're doing better and then

25:29

suddenly they die for no clear

25:31

reason. Like nose dive, yeah.

25:33

And so after of trawling through

25:35

these records, they come up with

25:37

20 people whose deaths at

25:39

the hospital were highly suspicious. And

25:44

so now the plan is to

25:46

exhume the bodies from a cemetery and

25:48

search for the drugs that Efren

25:50

had said he used to kill the

25:53

patients. And they the kind of thing

25:55

that would last for a while? Like

25:57

in the system, like, would

26:00

you still see them? Ash. Really, that

26:02

is the question. Because the

26:04

cops start asking around and

26:06

they realise we do not

26:08

have a good test. to to

26:10

find these drugs in this situation. Basically,

26:14

you can't pull out

26:16

some easy peasy test off

26:18

forensic science shelf that

26:20

would detect what's expected

26:22

to be pretty low

26:24

levels of Pavolod or succinylcholine in

26:26

a decomposing human body.

26:29

So bottom line, even if they

26:31

exhumed those bodies from those graveyards,

26:34

There's no reliable test to find

26:36

these drugs inside them. They've got nothing.

26:39

So now The story can't end here, obviously.

26:42

Obviously. Obviously. They get a tip that

26:44

there is this place that

26:46

just might be able to help

26:48

them. It's a

26:51

lab that some call the Lab

26:53

of Last Resort. What

26:55

a name. It's where

26:57

we're at in this story, right? Yeah,

27:00

true. This lab

27:02

is called the Livermore National Laboratory.

27:04

It's this huge sprawling facility

27:06

in California that was created

27:08

in the early days of

27:10

the Cold War and does

27:12

some truly bonkers stuff. So

27:14

they nuclear warheads. They have

27:16

one of the world's most powerful

27:18

lasers. And

27:20

they also have this forensic

27:23

science centre can trace tiny amounts

27:25

of chemicals. Why? What

27:27

are they doing at this lab? are

27:29

they doing at use it to find

27:31

chemical weapons, evidence of chemical weapons

27:33

in an environment. and Oh. And also

27:35

alleged murderers. And

27:37

here's how John

27:39

describes this lab. I

27:41

I don't know if you know about

27:44

this place, but it's like, I mean,

27:46

they weigh you when you go in

27:48

to make sure your weight is consistent

27:50

with what's on your ID and, you know,

27:52

fingerprint you. And it's like a And it's

27:54

like a high, really super high level, high security of

27:57

village. After

28:00

the break, we'll get inside

28:02

that high security village, the

28:04

lab of Last Resort. Let's

28:06

do it. It's coming up.

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29:23

Welcome back. Today on the show,

29:25

I'm here with Ashley Flowers, host

29:27

of Crime Junkie, and we are

29:29

cracking the case of Ephraim Saldovar,

29:31

a health care worker who's suspected

29:33

of killing dozens of patients. Wide

29:35

open. Let's do it. So we're

29:38

now heading to the Forensic Science

29:40

Centre at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

29:42

in California. The lab of last

29:44

resort. And it's now up to

29:46

some serious nerds to try to

29:48

detect the tiny amounts of drugs

29:50

in bodies that have been buried

29:52

for years. Armando

29:54

Alcaraz is an analytical chemist who

29:56

works at Lawrence Livermore, and he

29:58

was on the team. who had

30:00

to now create this test and

30:03

when he heard about what he

30:05

had to do he was like Oh

30:08

my God, where are we gonna find

30:10

this stuff? And I was

30:12

a bit skeptical. I thought it

30:14

was still gonna be enough contamination and

30:16

such low levels that we weren't be

30:18

able to see it and we

30:20

would then have to sort of pull

30:22

that needle you know, of a a haystack. So

30:25

here's what they have to do. Let Let me

30:27

describe the needle in the haystack. So is

30:29

the drugs. The haystack

30:31

are the loads of other

30:33

chemicals that would be in

30:36

these decomposing bodies. Armando

30:38

told us that some of the

30:40

patients were smokers, so tobacco would

30:42

have been contaminating the tissue, so

30:44

would any embalming fluid used in

30:46

the burying process. Dirty

30:49

water would have been seeping into

30:51

the coffins by now, leaching in

30:53

all of these chemicals from the

30:55

soil surrounding it. And

30:57

it meant that if you were to

30:59

look in liquid in their bladder, Yeah,

31:01

that point, you don't know whether

31:03

it was actually rule urine or

31:05

whether water seepage had gotten into

31:07

that coffin and was moisture in

31:09

it And that's what you're analyzing. Ooh,

31:12

right. You don't even know

31:14

if it's like fluid or outside

31:16

fluid or ugh. Exactly. So they

31:18

get to work. And they quickly

31:20

realized that one of the drugs

31:22

that Efren had said he used to

31:24

kill patients, succinylcholine, that is basically a

31:26

lost cause. It's just too hard

31:28

to identify it in a human body

31:30

after all this time. And

31:33

the reason is it breaks down

31:35

real fast. And when it breaks down

31:37

into the metabolites, those metabolites can

31:39

be found in the human body anyway.

31:42

So how could you go into a court

31:44

of law and say, well, here we found

31:46

these metabolites? Well, the defense are gonna go,

31:48

well, and does that mean? They're normally found

31:50

in a human body anyway. bit

31:52

with Pavilon, There's no

31:54

reason why a person should have that

31:56

drug in their system unless they

31:58

had a procedure. or somebody

32:00

injected them with it. So

32:03

zoom in and try to create

32:05

a test to identify Pavillon. And because

32:07

they don't want be doing this work

32:09

in human bodies, they start

32:11

working with something that's pretty close

32:13

to a human body. pig pigs.

32:15

They were, yes. yes. So

32:19

and his colleague get pig livers

32:21

and they add a tiny bit of

32:23

Pavalon. Spike it, know,

32:26

put the chemical in it and then

32:28

just allow it to putrefy. And then

32:30

you take it out and homogenize

32:32

it. You basically put it in a

32:34

blender and make a out of

32:36

it. Your face in this moment.

32:38

I know, it's like It's like milkshake

32:40

pig lipper. Yeah. you can really really it

32:42

in your throat, can't you? Things

32:45

are about to get a

32:47

little bit grosser. So So because they

32:49

would take this pig

32:52

liver milkshake and in

32:54

some cases, let it

32:56

sit and decay for months,

32:59

making it more like what these

33:01

bodies that have been decaying would

33:03

be like. At this

33:05

point, Armando and particularly

33:07

boss, Brian Andreessen, are

33:09

up to their elbows

33:11

in decomposing pig livers.

33:14

Word on the street is that

33:16

the lab did smell kind of

33:18

gross. What did it smell like? There's

33:20

these two notorious chemicals, putriscine and

33:22

cadaverine. So just names themselves kind of

33:24

give you an indication of what

33:26

it smells like. Cadaverine,

33:28

is that what you said? Cadaverine Cadaverine

33:30

and putrescine. It had to have smelled

33:32

so awful. I just went into

33:34

my first morgue for the first

33:36

time recently and there weren't even like,

33:39

that was bad. I have no

33:41

clue what this place would smell

33:43

like. So So bodies, whether

33:45

it's pigs or humans or whatever, they

33:47

emit these chemicals. And

33:49

the two that he talked

33:51

about, cadaverine and putrescine, they give

33:53

off that particular smell

33:55

of death, that smell that

33:57

you described. And here's how Armando...

34:00

described it. It's everything awful you could

34:02

think of. That's rotting. That's

34:04

what it smells like. And

34:07

so I have to tell you this story

34:09

because I spoke to Brian and we would

34:11

be working late at night, you know,

34:13

trying to get these samples through and

34:15

he would be you know, blending tissues up

34:17

with the blender. And even

34:19

though we were doing all this in the

34:21

chemical hoods, you could still smell that

34:24

stuff. And it would penetrate your

34:26

clothes. it would get your clothes. And so It

34:28

would already be maybe nine at night. It

34:30

was late, you know, and he said,

34:32

I'm going to go and I'd leave to And

34:34

he'd go to the grocery store to

34:36

go buy some stuff to eat. And

34:38

so he would be standing in line

34:41

and people would start to just move

34:43

away from him because he had sort

34:45

of was, you know, that smell of death just

34:47

in his clothes and in his hair

34:49

and everything. It It on you.

34:51

I've talked to detectives who have said that there

34:53

are scenes that they home from and they they to

34:55

just like their clothes or throw away their clothes

34:58

because no amount of washing will get it out.

35:00

There is just like a level that is

35:02

beyond anything. I I out. think most people know. Yeah,

35:04

bad. So covered

35:07

with this smell of

35:09

death, they take the

35:11

we're going to go back

35:13

to the decaying pig milkshakes that

35:15

have been spiked with Pavillon

35:17

they pass them through this

35:20

particular contraption that's called

35:22

a solid extraction polymer. It

35:24

looks a bit like a plastic syringe

35:27

and it has a kind of filter in

35:29

it or what's called a And

35:31

inside it, they're basically trying

35:33

to separate Pavalon from all the

35:35

other crap that is in

35:38

these tissue samples. But what

35:40

you have to know is that

35:42

there's different cartridges out there that are

35:44

used to isolate different chemicals. I never

35:46

thought about how one would isolate

35:48

chemicals from a human body. Not

35:50

Not what I've spent my brain power on.

35:52

No. had No. So basically they're

35:54

pushing all tiny bits of samples

35:57

through these little syringes. And

35:59

what the game is to

36:01

find the exact right cartridge that's

36:04

going to trap Pavillon, but leave

36:06

out everything else. Yeah, else, or as

36:08

much as possible of everything

36:10

else. And so Armando's colleague has been

36:12

working on finding the right

36:14

cartridge. Armando is focusing on another

36:17

piece of this puzzle. It's

36:19

really tough. Just passing this milkshake

36:21

through these filters could take

36:23

days, depending on how decayed the

36:25

tissue is or how much mucus

36:27

is in it. May

36:30

into June. They're pulling

36:32

16 -hour days. It's just

36:34

late night after late night.

36:38

They that task force that was just

36:40

sitting there, waiting for you know, the results so they

36:42

could move forward. So that was putting

36:44

a lot of pressure on us and

36:46

that's why we were working late. They're

36:48

not finding what they need. It's

36:50

depressing. Nothing is working.

36:53

No, but what the heck's going on?

36:55

And so the instrument would start leaking

36:57

on me, the solvents. and I'd be frustrated

36:59

and just like oh, pulling my hair out.

37:02

But then one day, Brian is

37:04

testing this cartridge that was

37:06

designed to detect the residue of

37:08

chemical weapons. And from across

37:10

the room, Armando hears

37:12

his colleague saying something. He

37:15

goes, I think we're there. It

37:17

was solid. Actually, what cartridge did

37:20

was acted like a magnet

37:22

where it would just

37:24

collect the drug or or

37:26

similar to the drug and

37:28

of it gripped on it. And

37:30

then it allowed us to

37:32

then wash off all

37:34

of the tobacco products and

37:36

other biomaterials that were

37:38

in the tissue, but the

37:40

drug attached. Wow. But that

37:42

was amazing. That was a magic

37:45

cartridge. Holy crap.

37:47

That is incredible. Isn't

37:49

it? They found the magic cartridge. So

37:53

Armando would now extract all the

37:55

chemicals in the cartridge and then

37:57

using a bunch of tools like.

37:59

mass spectrometry. Oh Oh my God. This is

38:01

why we call it mass spec.

38:03

Because there's so many R's in that

38:05

word. Using tools like

38:07

mass spectrometry, which separates chemicals based

38:10

on their weight. And then

38:12

try to identify Pavalon in that

38:14

sample. And here, here Armando a

38:16

break because it turns out that

38:18

Pavalon creates this really unique

38:20

signature, which meant, yes, they

38:22

can identify this drug. And

38:25

so now it's time to see if

38:28

what works in pig livers works

38:30

in human bodies. So

38:33

the spring of 1999. the

38:36

start driving out to

38:38

the graveyards bodies start getting

38:40

exhumed. And John

38:42

said even for him, This

38:45

pulling out bodies from the ground,

38:47

this was, this was rough. I've

38:50

seen a lot of dead bodies, but when

38:52

you exhume a a body, it's unnatural. You're

38:54

pulling the casket out of the ground, you're cracking

38:56

open the casket, and you don't know what

38:58

you're going to find. One

39:01

time we opened a casket and

39:04

the maggots inside the casket

39:06

were jumping out Like can

39:09

remember them landing on

39:11

my protective gear on my

39:13

chest. Oh,

39:18

that is rough. That's

39:20

like part of the job description. Oh, Oh,

39:23

so the caskets get

39:25

opened, bodies removed, tissue samples

39:27

are taken out and then sent.

39:30

to the lab of last resort. But

39:33

finally, after all this time, Armando

39:35

and his colleagues start

39:38

testing their very first patient.

39:40

And, you know,

39:42

this point, if they find Pavalon in

39:44

these bodies, really does mean you know, was

39:46

no reason for Pavalon to be in

39:48

their system unless had put it in

39:50

there. So they start testing patients. We

39:54

didn't see anything. I I mean, there

39:56

was no signal. Then second set

39:58

of samples for the second. second patient and

40:01

there was nothing there. And

40:03

then, you know, the third one, nothing

40:05

there. And then I'm thinking,

40:07

oh God, what's going on? Is

40:09

going Is just nothing in some

40:11

of these tissues? You start

40:14

to doubt whether you're see anything.

40:17

And then then they test the

40:19

fourth patient. And I was

40:21

like, I something here, it's

40:23

there. And so I ran over

40:25

to Brian and I got, I much ran

40:27

over there saying, you look at this.

40:30

We got a hit on this, it's

40:32

confirmed it's there. It was that, yes, we

40:34

did it. So then

40:36

were were on a roll and we

40:38

started looking at various tissues from

40:40

that individual. And sure

40:42

enough, we were getting positives, you know,

40:44

on the kidney, on the

40:47

bladder tissue, on the brain.

40:49

So all of these, that one

40:51

patient was hot. Wow.

40:54

Yeah, they test another body, they don't

40:56

find it, but then they get another

40:59

hit and another hit another hit and they

41:01

tell the cops, you you know, these Pavillon,

41:03

we are finding it. And John

41:05

remembers how he felt. So

41:07

the drug was a huge

41:09

moment. We kind of

41:11

erupted in clapping and

41:14

like cheering, of thing.

41:16

And then finding the drug in multiple

41:18

patients, that was the, then we

41:20

knew, we we knew we had it. They

41:24

did it, they did it. So

41:27

they have to go exhume every single

41:29

patient that he's ever come in contact

41:32

with Or like, where they go from there?

41:34

Yeah, so they picked out the patients patients

41:37

that were most suspicious because

41:39

they couldn't exhume a a

41:41

bodies. So these are the

41:43

suspicious cases. And do they think that

41:45

the others truly didn't have it in

41:47

their system, like they would have they would

41:49

have that or unsure about

41:51

the other ones? think we don't know,

41:54

they could have been killed with succinylcholine

41:57

instead, or or it could have been the

41:59

Pavillon wasn't at too low levels to detect,

42:01

or it could be that maybe

42:03

the rest of the patients actually weren't

42:05

killed by Efron. We don't know.

42:07

That's the thing when you don't find When you don't

42:09

find chemical, you just don't know what the

42:11

answer is. But finding the

42:13

chemical showed that at least

42:15

with six patients, there was

42:17

this drug in there. Because

42:20

that's how many that's how many patients,

42:22

that's how many bodies that

42:24

they found Pavillon in the end.

42:26

It was six, including including Jose Alfaro,

42:28

who fought in World War

42:30

II, II, Salbiya Sartrian, and

42:32

and Eleanor Schlegel, who toasted to

42:35

the new year with her

42:37

son. And

42:39

still after this test, the toasted

42:41

cops actually aren't ready to arrest

42:43

ephron just yet because this

42:45

was happening just a few years

42:47

after the OJ Simpson trial. And

42:49

that case kind of fell on

42:52

its face because the cops messed

42:54

up and mishandled evidence. So

42:57

and his colleagues not only test the

42:59

bodies for Pavillon, but then all kinds of

43:01

stuff around the bodies. Because there was

43:03

this suggestion that maybe would be in

43:05

the soil or would have been in the crypt water

43:08

the embalming fluid and then made

43:10

way into the bodies. so

43:12

they test that stuff. Everything's

43:14

looking fine. fine. You know, when Musgrave,

43:17

who was our pharmacologist, read details

43:19

about their work, he said, and

43:21

and I have never heard an

43:23

academic describe a paper like this,

43:26

but he said it was like

43:28

seeing an experienced figure skater. Every

43:30

move is smooth and beautiful.

43:36

I love that. This This can

43:39

appreciate the art. Yeah, I guess. And

43:41

so in January so in January 2001, this

43:43

is three years after Efron's first

43:45

confession. The cops arrest him

43:47

on his way to work at

43:49

a construction site. John

43:52

brings him in for questioning. He

43:54

tells Efron the evidence that they

43:56

have that was found in six

43:59

bodies. Well, we kept

44:01

asking them, how many do you think you killed?

44:07

Oh, very soft -spoken and

44:09

you can barely hear him. him. I

44:13

think sometimes he

44:15

was like stuff down and passing notes to

44:17

us in the interview. And

44:19

And as John remembers it, Efren

44:21

confesses to killing

44:23

the patients. at

44:25

first he won't say how many

44:27

he killed and instead he

44:30

tells John what it takes to

44:32

kill patients using Pavilon. And

44:34

he says, says, with just one

44:36

vial, you can kill a

44:38

lot of people. Well, I can

44:40

kill 10 people per vial and I probably

44:42

had used 10 or 20 vials

44:45

over the years and so

44:47

it was probably to 200. to 200. What?

44:52

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my

44:54

gosh. Your Mouth fell a agape

44:56

when you heard these numbers. Tell

44:59

me what you're thinking. That's

45:01

so prolific. And

45:04

it's do you even... has he kept

45:06

a record of who these people were? How do

45:08

you even go back and try and find

45:10

out who they were? No, No, he didn't remember

45:12

the patients. I mean, he even

45:14

said, that he like lost

45:16

he patients. count at 60 patients. And

45:19

can't still be saying like he

45:21

was like to save them from

45:23

their own suffering, right? right?

45:25

So So as the question of why he

45:27

did it, John actually got... when I asked

45:29

him the cop, what people get wrong when

45:31

they report this story? he

45:34

he quite passionate and he just said,

45:36

this case has been reported as

45:38

an angel of death case that was trying

45:40

to reduce their suffering. But

45:42

for this case, I mean, John

45:44

says that they were specifically

45:47

looking for victims who were getting

45:49

better. You know, like you said, who were New

45:51

Year's, who wanted to wanted to

45:54

live. Then And that

45:56

confession room, Efren told John there

45:58

was a completely different race. for

46:00

doing what he did. He would get

46:02

irritated that he would have to go

46:04

tend to a patient. So, line

46:06

with him was every... were

46:09

irritants. They disrupted

46:11

his day, You know, patients in

46:13

the hospital were very needy and clicking that

46:15

button a lot. And so he

46:17

confessed to killing because of workload. Sir,

46:19

what did you think you were signing up for? Yeah.

46:21

You could have scrubs at home. What the? f***? I

46:24

I don't know if I'm ever swear on this but What

46:26

the? f***? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What?

46:28

Yeah. He told the police that, quote,

46:30

it was not something that gave

46:32

me joy. And then

46:34

he said, quote, only when I

46:37

was only at my wit's on

46:39

the staffing, I'd look at the

46:41

board who we got to

46:43

get rid of. What?

46:46

So callous. We

46:48

talked to Sarah, our our journalist

46:50

about the victims. There

46:53

was one woman who actually survived

46:55

the attempt because didn't give her

46:57

enough and she pressed the call

46:59

button too much and annoyed him. And

47:02

so he her. There's

47:04

like, that even like... that

47:07

doesn't even like register. I just, Like,

47:12

can someone be that cold? It

47:14

almost would make more sense if he, you

47:17

you know, did like some kind of

47:19

like joy something from the actual killing. Like,

47:21

almost makes more sense to me

47:23

than just being like, well, too

47:25

many people today. so like, which one's going to

47:27

lose their life so we can like

47:29

a manageable schedule? Yeah.

47:32

Efren took a plea deal and

47:34

was eventually convicted of killing

47:36

the six patients that

47:38

Armando and his colleagues found

47:41

Pavillon Efren

47:43

was sentenced to six consecutive

47:45

life terms without the possibility of

47:47

parole for the murder counts

47:49

and 15 years to life for

47:51

the attempted murder of Jean Coyle,

47:53

who was the woman who survived.

47:55

And there is this extra

47:58

weird twist to this story, Ashley. Because

48:00

if had gone to trial instead of

48:02

taking a plea deal, he might

48:04

have been faced with the death penalty.

48:07

And at that time, if he got

48:09

the death penalty, you want you want to

48:11

guess... They would have used the same drug.

48:13

Yes. one of the drugs that they

48:15

would have used to kill him ..was

48:18

Pavilon. Wow. So,

48:27

Ashley, that's the case of how

48:29

some nerds used some smooth

48:31

and beautiful moves to catch a

48:33

killer. I love it. Science

48:35

saved the day? Yeah, I mean, I

48:38

think science is always saving the day, right? Like, in the

48:40

world that we live in... And I

48:42

love this because I love the idea that, oh,

48:44

we didn't know what The test didn't exist.

48:46

And so instead of being like, oh, sorry, there's

48:48

something to do. That doesn't mean it can't

48:50

happen. Science is like, all the time around

48:52

us. If we we, like, it happen, just because the

48:54

test doesn't exist today doesn't mean it won't

48:56

tomorrow. Yeah. exactly. Well,

48:59

thank you so much for joining the

49:01

show, Ashley. Thank you for having me. If

49:08

you want to know more about this

49:10

case, then go check out our transcript.

49:12

So, in show notes, for this episode, there's

49:14

a link to our transcript and it's

49:16

fully cited. So, links to

49:18

Armando's amazing work that

49:20

looks like a figure

49:22

skater and also links

49:24

to some amazing reporting

49:26

that was done by

49:29

staff at the LA Times, who we

49:31

to help make this

49:33

episode. Also, Sarah Skoll's book

49:35

is called Countdown, The future

49:37

of nuclear weapons. And this

49:39

story didn't make the cut, So

49:41

it's called Countdown, the blinding future

49:44

of nuclear weapons. This

49:51

episode was produced by Katie

49:53

Foster-Keys and Joel Werner with

49:55

help from me, Wendy Zuckerman,

49:57

along with Meryl Horne, Rose Rimmler and

49:59

Michelle Dang. We're edited by... live to rel mix

50:02

and sound designed Sam Bear back by

50:04

Diane Music written

50:06

by so wiley Bobby Lord and boomy hidako

50:08

a A special thanks

50:10

to Roland campus Steve whampler or

50:12

Williams, the audio team, Jasmine Kingston Connor

50:15

Samson stupid old studios and penny green hulch

50:17

science versus is a Spotify Studios original Listen

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50:41

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