0:03

I felt as if here I was hiding, I was

0:05

doing something that was wrong. I was scared

0:07

to be caught. I was actually having

0:09

this quote unquote famous nap

0:11

on the Sunday, and I

0:14

think my husband had come into the room.

0:17

Here I am, you know, sexting,

0:20

pretending that I'm having a nap, and

0:23

I'm thinking you're really like working

0:25

as right now, as if why

0:28

are you interrupting? Right? That

0:33

is Olivia. She's describing

0:35

a moment where her husband entered her bedroom

0:38

and unwittingly interrupted her having an

0:40

orgasm after she read sexy

0:43

texts from another man on her phone. See.

0:46

A few years ago, Olivia reconnected

0:48

with an old coworker and they

0:50

started texting. Then they

0:52

started sexting. Olivia

0:54

had been unhappily married for more than

0:56

two decades, but

0:59

then a sold co worker came along

1:02

and his texts became a virtual

1:04

affair that completely changed

1:06

her life. I felt very

1:08

naive. I felt as if, oh my god, this is such a

1:10

taboo, like this is

1:12

crazy. And I

1:15

remember telling this to my girlfriends and

1:17

they said, immediately change his name but the

1:19

alias, because you really don't want your husband

1:22

seeing that. I'm

1:24

Joe Piazza, when you're listening to

1:26

She Wants More, the podcast where

1:28

real women talk openly and honestly

1:31

about the extra marital affairs that have completely

1:34

changed their lives. One

1:38

thing that has really struck me while interviewing

1:40

women for this podcast is just

1:43

how much technology has changed the landscape

1:45

of extra marital affairs. The

1:48

women I've talked to completely rely on technology

1:51

to meet men, to plan and execute

1:53

their affairs, and to

1:55

keep them a secret. Take

1:57

Olivia, she conducted

1:59

an entire affair strictly

2:02

on her smartphone. It

2:04

was completely based on getting text messages

2:06

and voice memos from her old coworker. Like

2:09

we said earlier, nothing physical

2:11

ever actually happened. Technology

2:14

has changed absolutely everything about

2:16

having an affair, from

2:19

dating websites for married people and

2:21

Facebook and Craigslist to burner phones

2:24

and WhatsApp. Technologies

2:26

made it easier than ever for women

2:28

to step out. For example,

2:31

Michelle. Michelle was on the

2:33

podcast a few episodes ago when

2:36

she hit her breaking point with her husband,

2:38

she signed up for Ashley Madison. And

2:41

when Michelle signed up, within minutes,

2:44

she started getting all kinds of responses

2:47

from all kinds of men. She

2:49

actually had to adjust her geography

2:51

filter to make the radius

2:53

smaller. That's right, smaller,

2:56

because there were just so many available

2:59

married men looking to meet married

3:01

women close to her

3:03

house. I asked

3:06

Michelle what she thought it must have been like to

3:08

be a woman in the pre internet days

3:10

who wanted to have an affair, back in the Stone

3:13

Age at the nineties, in early

3:15

two thousands. Can

3:17

you imagine being a woman pre

3:19

internet who wants to have an affair?

3:22

Right? Did they just walk into a bar?

3:25

Right right? Lee, You're wedding me at

3:27

home and hope nobody found out? Like, I don't

3:29

know, I don't I mean, I mean, I think about

3:31

that all the time. I think maybe I need to talk to more

3:33

women who had affairs in the pre

3:35

digital age because it just

3:37

seems so much easier now. Well,

3:39

and it seems easier to find

3:41

somebody that's not in your social

3:44

circle because you could

3:46

find somebody probably

3:49

pre online dating and stuff, but

3:51

the chances are it's somebody that you

3:53

meet at work or

3:56

something where there's likely to be

3:58

like overlap. You're right,

4:01

yeah, yes, someone

4:03

at church exactly. But

4:06

is it really that easy? I

4:11

wanted to see just how easy it was to

4:13

find someone who wants to have an affair online. So,

4:16

along with my intrepid producers Jab and

4:18

Allie, we decided to

4:20

sign up for Ashley Madison. Have

4:24

you create a profile? Okay, so

4:27

relationship status attached

4:31

female, So use your name,

4:33

You're like, no one uses their real make

4:36

up? Something. Time you

4:38

put in a greeting, Hey, sexy

4:40

man, dear birth feels

4:45

like a lot of personal information. Something

4:47

long term.

4:49

I want to say, cyber affair, erotic

4:52

chat. Okay, okay, undecided,

4:55

undecided, I'm undecided. Wait,

4:58

fuck off? Why don't you to give your

5:00

weight? Do you have to give your weight on any

5:02

other dating thing? No, definitely not.

5:05

You need your height also, height,

5:07

body type? You all

5:10

right? I'm giving my email. I

5:13

guess people create fake emails for this, right

5:14

probably that's so all right. It's telling me

5:17

to add a disguised photo, disguise

5:19

your identity, and add some privacy

5:23

to your photos.

5:25

More about you? Okay, I'm

5:28

a forty something forty

5:31

some thing writer,

5:36

just here to explore. You're

5:40

all signed up? I have to verify

5:43

my email. Yeah, there's so many

5:45

guys on there. Wow, I

5:47

mean that took us how long

5:49

that was? Five minutes? And look there's

5:51

like bazillion men here, there's

5:53

a bazillion man's kind of cute you

5:56

think handsome stud forty

5:58

six Philadelphia. Oh my god, they know and I'm

6:00

in Philadelphia. Are not even in Philadelphia.

6:02

I don't think I gave them. I didn't tell

6:04

them

6:04

anything. And

6:10

that right there, that is how easy it

6:12

was for a woman to sign up for a

6:14

married person stating site that will

6:16

deliver a gazillion men for

6:19

you to have an affair with within a fifty mile

6:21

radius of your house. We'll

6:24

be back after a short break.

6:31

We're back. Technology

6:34

has allowed individuals

6:36

to have affairs from the comfort of their

6:38

own home. You may be sitting

6:41

next to your partner on the couch

6:43

and watching TV while also engaging

6:45

an affair from your smartphone. That's

6:49

Jacklin Cravens Pickens. Jacqueline

6:51

is a marriage and family therapy professor at

6:53

Texas Tech University and is also

6:56

a licensed marriage and family therapist.

6:59

Her research is on relationships, technology,

7:02

and monogamy. I called Jacqueline

7:04

because she's pretty much the leading expert

7:06

out there on the intersection of tech and

7:09

infidelity, and one of the things

7:11

she told me is that the evolution of technology

7:13

enabling affairs has been happening

7:16

pre smartphone, and she took

7:18

me back about twenty years ago, back

7:20

to the beginning of Facebook and a

7:22

virtual reality game called

7:24

Farmville. One

7:28

of my first couples that I

7:31

had worked with, it was a heterosexual

7:33

couple. The female partner had been

7:35

having a relationship with

7:38

a game player on farm Ville that

7:40

they met through the game, and

7:43

the husband had said, you know,

7:46

I can't believe you love this person. You

7:48

don't know who they actually are. You've never

7:50

met them in person. So

7:52

you think you want to leave me for this person

7:55

on Farmville. I'll kind of call your

7:57

bluff and I'll pay for you to go meet this

7:59

person in real life, offline

8:01

all Farmville, and this will settle

8:03

everything, and you're gonna come back and want to

8:06

be with me. So when her

8:08

husband found out and he said, how

8:10

about you going to meet the guy in person and you'll

8:12

realize just how crazy you're being.

8:16

As you might imagine, this did not go as

8:18

the husband expected. Meeting all

8:20

fline ended up being even better than

8:22

their online relationship, and

8:24

so when the wife came back

8:26

to town and they were back in session, she

8:29

said, yeah, no, I'm leaving you. I want

8:31

to be with this person. She

8:34

left her husband for the Farmville guy, a

8:36

guy she never would have met

8:38

in real life, but because of a game

8:40

where you buy and sell virtual

8:43

livestock, an affair was made possible

8:46

along with the dissolution of an unhappy

8:48

marriage. Now, like

8:50

I said, this was almost twenty years ago,

8:53

and it's about the same time that Craigslist

8:55

Casual Encounters became popular

8:57

for people looking for casual sex or

9:00

extra marital affairs. In

9:02

fact, remember Monique from episode

9:04

three, Craigslist Casual Encounters

9:06

is how she started her first affair. You

9:10

could go on Craigslist and you could find anything

9:12

from adult nursing relationship

9:15

to garden furniture. I had a girlfriend

9:17

who had just separated, and one day

9:19

she was over and we'd been kind

9:22

of drinking and looking

9:24

at Craigslist, and I saw this ad

9:26

that I thought was just brilliant, and

9:28

I replied. We kept corresponding,

9:32

and then at some point we decided

9:34

to have a beer together and it

9:37

had it. And now with

9:39

smartphones, internet capable

9:41

devices and all the social

9:43

media affairs have reached a

9:45

whole new level of accessibility.

9:49

The Internet has really arrived

9:51

at a place where it greatly approximates

9:53

offline life. We

9:55

used to not have things like video capabilities

9:58

or virtual reality. That's

10:01

Jacklin Craven's pickens Again, it's

10:03

created very unique ways in which

10:05

we can engage in online infidelity.

10:08

You could be using teledildonics

10:11

or USB capable devices

10:14

that are sex toys that somebody else can

10:16

be operating on the other side of the world,

10:18

and we can be having sexual affairs

10:21

through technology. What

10:23

is a teledildonic? Did

10:26

I say that right? Is

10:28

that a teledildo? Yes? Absolutely

10:30

so other words use cyberdildonics,

10:33

but it's basically a fancy word for

10:35

a USB capable

10:38

sex toy. Then all sorts

10:40

of different types exist. So if you're

10:43

you're curious, I want to do a quick Google

10:45

search from dildos

10:47

to mouths that are USB operated

10:51

by a partner in another location.

10:53

So we think about online

10:56

affairs being direct messages,

10:58

secret chats that are happening,

11:00

and I think with virtual reality

11:03

and things like teledyldonics, you

11:05

know, our imagination is probably

11:07

pretty endless now about how people

11:10

are having online affairs. How you just

11:13

I really like it when I learn new words and

11:16

what are some ways specifically that you've

11:19

seen people using technology to

11:22

cheat and We've heard about women using

11:24

Ashley Madison and then What's App,

11:27

separate emails, burner phones, all

11:29

of these things to schedule and

11:31

track their affairs, similar

11:33

to introducing you to the concept of teledyldonics.

11:36

I think the options are

11:39

so far reaching. I've

11:42

seen people engaging in affairs

11:45

through Reddit. They were in special communities

11:47

on Reddit and built a connection and meeting

11:50

people through social media apps.

11:53

The Calculator app was one I saw

11:55

for a while, which was an app that

11:57

allows you to have a secret, hidden

12:00

compartment in your phone where you could have

12:02

dating apps and text

12:04

messages. That looks

12:06

like the Calculator app until you click it

12:08

and it asks you to put in a password and

12:10

then write It's like opening the subfolder

12:13

of a phone where hidden information

12:15

exists. No, it looks like

12:17

the Calculator and so no one's ever going to

12:19

open it. But it's actually got all of

12:21

your secret dating and text messaging

12:24

stuff in it. Yes, Calculator

12:29

apps, Reddit affairs,

12:32

virtual dildos. These

12:34

lines are blurry as f and

12:37

it is hard to figure out where

12:39

fantasies end and reality

12:41

begins. But we're

12:43

about to see just how real a

12:46

virtual affair can get to

12:49

be. Walking in the street and to be able to

12:52

reach it to orgasm. I'm like, wow, this is

12:54

and this is when you start realizing the power

12:56

of the mind. You know, an affair doesn't

12:59

necessarily have to be that physical

13:01

sexual relationship, or that

13:03

orgasm doesn't necessarily have to

13:05

be the actual penetration.

13:09

That's Olivia again, the woman who

13:11

orgasmed while her husband was just in

13:13

the other room, while she was receiving

13:15

a sexy text from another man. And

13:18

after the break, we are going to hear every

13:21

detail of her virtual affair. We're

13:28

back. The text

13:30

messages continue, but

13:33

they kick it up a notch a little bit. It's

13:36

as if we're raising the volume. I

13:38

felt very naive. I felt as if, oh my god,

13:41

this is such a taboo, like this

13:43

is crazy. And I

13:46

remember telling this to my girlfriends and they

13:48

said it changed his name, but the alias,

13:50

because you really don't want your husband seeing

13:53

that. That's Olivia

13:55

telling me about how her virtual sexting affair

13:57

got started. After reconnecting

13:59

with her for our coworker, that coworker

14:01

started playfully sending some texts,

14:04

but they quickly got pretty

14:07

racy. Her friends

14:09

told her to change his name on her phone

14:11

in case her husband got suspicious. But

14:14

let's back up for a moment and find out how

14:16

this all started for Olivia.

14:18

When we first started talking, Olivia told me that

14:21

she was the kind of person who would never have

14:23

an affair, who would never cross a

14:25

line. And so I asked her

14:27

how she ended up getting into this. She

14:30

told me it was because at that moment,

14:32

the moment when she started talking to her former co

14:34

worker, she'd reached a point in

14:37

her marriage where she really felt

14:39

like she'd lost herself, and

14:41

in that moment, she was much more receptive

14:43

to sexting advances. You

14:46

know, with my husband, if he would put his

14:48

foot in his mouth, or if he would just start drinking,

14:51

he would say things without measure.

14:53

He would be disrespectful to

14:55

women who was like, I'm the

14:58

man of the house, I'm the ruler control,

15:01

I pay, so I decide what it's

15:03

done. It just became worse

15:05

and worse and worse. I

15:08

had to change who

15:11

I was to satisfy him.

15:14

The way the hair was done. The hair had to

15:16

be blonde, it had to be straight. And

15:19

he would say this to people. He would say this to

15:21

my kids. You know, your mother would

15:23

be perfect if she would just have this, and

15:25

why won't she do this for me? And

15:28

I think I was just so desperate

15:31

to feel alive. I

15:34

was willing to take that risk. I

15:36

felt giddy, I felt beautiful.

15:39

I allowed myself to be taken

15:43

to this fantasy, and yes I

15:45

did fantasize about it. I did take

15:47

it to a whole other level. I

15:49

think the fantasy also the taboo,

15:52

right, there was something so mysterious about

15:54

it. Do you think it

15:56

was hotter because it wasn't physical.

16:00

Yes, I felt as if I had

16:02

this secret and it was

16:04

this wonderful secret or piece

16:06

of information that was filling my cup

16:09

in every possible way, Like to be

16:11

walking in the street and to be able to

16:14

reach an orgasm. I'm like, wow, I've

16:17

got to ask what was in

16:20

the text message that made you have the orgasm

16:22

walking down the street. I

16:25

think it was just in the way he was saying how

16:27

he was going to touch me in just such an

16:30

incredible way, in a very

16:32

sensual, very erotic way.

16:35

The touch, the caress, the oil,

16:38

what he was going to do to me, how

16:40

he was going to do it to me. It

16:43

was the foreplay, It was

16:45

the excitement, it was the

16:48

stimulation. You know, how do you like this? How

16:50

do you want this? How many fingers? Positions?

16:53

Things like this? Literally lost for

16:55

like twenty minutes, so like

16:59

me to where I was going,

17:01

and I was like, what the hell is happening

17:04

to me? And you know, it's

17:07

kind of funny thinking

17:09

here I'm walking in the street and

17:13

having this crazy ass orgasm

17:15

and all these people passing me and they

17:17

have no fucking clue what's going on. And

17:22

it was just incredible. And

17:24

I also realized that

17:27

I am very sexual, that I

17:29

enjoy the connection, I enjoy the intimacy,

17:32

and I think in that week

17:36

he brought that back. I had actually

17:38

asked him to get me one of those remote

17:40

control vibrators which

17:43

a friend of mine had told me about, that

17:46

you can control it through Bluetooth, and

17:49

you know, I was willing to experiment certain

17:52

things with him. It was as if Pandora's

17:54

box had opened up with him.

17:58

I asked Olivia if there were a lot of other times

18:00

that she messaged with her former co worker while

18:03

her husband was right there, and

18:06

if she did, if there was a thrill or

18:08

a power she got from the secrecy,

18:11

Yes, there'll be a gun for dinner, and

18:14

that we were going to the theater and he

18:16

started texting me, and

18:20

my husband is sitting right in front of me, my daughter's

18:23

right beside me, and the phone

18:25

is on my left side. And

18:28

I remember my daughter wanting

18:31

to get my phone. I'm like, no, no, no no, you can't

18:33

use your dad. And

18:35

she just turned to me and she's like what, And

18:37

I'm like, god, I was too scared that

18:40

the message would come up. I

18:43

went to the washroom and

18:45

I said, you know, I can't I'm

18:47

at the theater. And

18:49

he didn't get it. You just

18:52

didn't get it. Then we were at the theater

18:54

or waiting to go in. During the

18:56

play, you know how, the light kind of flashes

18:59

on, and of course my husband

19:01

is beside and he's like, you know, who's texting you?

19:03

I'm like, no, no much. I think it's just you know, work

19:05

related. Luckily, what I was doing for work,

19:08

it was pretty much twenty four seven. But

19:10

yeah,

19:11

it was exciting.

19:14

It was very exciting. Did you ever

19:16

think about it as an affair? No,

19:20

don't. I don't even know the title. There's

19:23

so many different titles that one could put

19:25

on it, or there's so many different meanings.

19:28

I guess if you want to put to the word affair,

19:31

is an affair being disloyal to

19:33

your partner, Because if that's

19:35

the case, then

19:38

emotionally, I guess I did have an affair.

19:41

Do I feel guilty about it? No? Not

19:44

once did I feel guilty. This

19:49

was the part that was so interesting to me. Olivia

19:52

never considered this to be an affair

19:55

because nothing physical happened. Sure,

19:58

she was having the best orgasm of her life.

20:01

She was feeling free and open and

20:03

fucking amazing. She

20:06

was talking to this man about the most intimate parts

20:08

of her body, but she didn't

20:10

consider it cheating. And

20:13

that right there, that is another

20:15

way that technology has changed how women

20:17

can cheat on their husbands. You can

20:19

have an affair that's maybe

20:22

not even an affair. I

20:27

think that there are some really great

20:30

theories that help us better understand

20:32

how this happens. Even with people

20:35

that, like I said, don't get

20:38

online or reach out to people or

20:40

meet people with the specific purpose

20:42

of having an affair. That's Jaqueline

20:45

Cravens Pickens Again. They get on

20:47

for gameplay, or they

20:49

reach out to a high school friend

20:52

or a college ex partner just

20:54

to check in, and very quickly

20:56

it moves into very vulnerable

21:00

personal information where

21:02

we're building these really quick, emotionally

21:04

intense connections and all of a sudden

21:07

we've crossed a boundary. And

21:09

one of the things we know about computer mediated

21:11

communication is people talk

21:14

about how quickly they

21:16

feel more comfortable being

21:18

able to disclose personal

21:20

information. So I

21:22

didn't realize I was going to open up and share

21:25

all of these intimate details in the

21:27

way in which I did, and so

21:29

much more rapidly. Online people

21:32

feel emotionally close and

21:34

connected than what happens and offline

21:37

interactions. And that's why I

21:39

use that term that slippery slope of like,

21:41

well, I didn't think that this was what was

21:43

going to happen from this interaction, and here

21:46

we are. I feel so connected, this person

21:48

really understands me. I

21:50

feel so close, so connected, so

21:53

quickly. Right, it

21:57

really is a slippery slip. And

22:00

we will be going write down that Slabrislow

22:02

next week when we dive into an affair

22:04

that took a very unexpected

22:06

twist. Over

22:09

the past seven episodes, we've learned that infidelity

22:11

and non monogamy for women can

22:14

be a lot of things, empowering,

22:17

freeing, even self esteem building,

22:20

but they're also complicated,

22:24

and if I'm being honest with you, I'm

22:26

still trying to figure out what does it all

22:28

mean for female sexuality and agency

22:31

and for breaking down the stigmas that have

22:33

allowed men to cheat and kept women

22:36

faithful for so long. That

22:39

is all Next week this

22:44

has been She Wants More. I'm

22:46

your host, Joe Piazza. She

22:52

Wants More was inspired by the book A Passion

22:54

for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish.

22:57

It was adapted for audio by executive produces

23:00

Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer, and

23:03

Susan Shapiro Parish. She

23:05

Wants More is hosted and reported by me Joe

23:07

Piazza. Jennifer Bassett

23:10

is our lead producer and story editor. Our

23:13

sound design is by Jessica Crunchich. Our

23:15

theme was composed by Anna Stumff and

23:18

Hamilton Lighthouser. Our executive

23:20

producers for iHeart are Ali Perry

23:22

and Nikki Etour. She

23:24

Wants More as a production of iHeart Podcasts.

23:28

For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio

23:30

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

23:33

you listen to your favorite shows.