0:03

So I met him at his office one evening.

0:05

The sex was great, and then it just

0:08

was a whirlwind. It was a crazy whirlwind,

0:11

like maybe a few weeks into it or

0:13

a month into it, I said, hey, we've got to stop this.

0:16

You've got a family. I've got a family. And

0:18

so he went home that night without telling

0:20

me and told his wife. It was so

0:22

scary because it blew up all

0:24

over this small town. That's

0:30

Sarah. She was

0:32

a young, married mom at her twenties when she first

0:34

met Keith. Keith was her daughter's

0:36

pediatrician. He

0:38

was also married with a young child. But the

0:40

feeling between the two of them was electric,

0:43

and Sarah couldn't help herself. There

0:46

was a force, there was an energy

0:48

around our being togethered that was unexpected.

0:53

Then Keith told his wife, and

0:55

his wife, as you might expect,

0:58

told everyone. Suddenly,

1:01

Sarah and Keith's affair blew up both

1:03

of their lives, but it

1:05

didn't matter. Sarah was

1:07

in love and it seemed worth it, and

1:10

for a while it actually ended up working

1:12

out for her. Sarah and Keith got

1:14

married. I thought our life was

1:17

the best life in the world. We just lived

1:19

life fully. We traveled we took our children

1:21

places, we were involved in the community, we

1:24

had good careers, We loved

1:26

each other. But then her

1:29

life blew up again. This

1:33

is she wants more. I'm your

1:35

host, Joe Piazza.

1:37

Over the past seven episodes, we've heard from

1:39

numerous women who have cheated on we

1:42

are currently cheating on their partners. Every

1:45

story is different, but we do keep

1:47

hearing some common themes. We

1:49

hear that these affairs tend to empower

1:51

women, boost their self esteem, enrich

1:54

their sex lives, and sometimes

1:56

they even find the love that they've been missing

1:58

in their marriage. And I've got

2:00

to tell you, sometimes these interviews have made

2:03

infidelity seem dreaming,

2:07

like they're the fountain of youth or the secret

2:09

sauce to a more complete and lovely

2:11

existence. Today,

2:14

in our final episode, we're

2:16

hearing a different kind of story. This

2:19

is a story that began as a love affair,

2:22

but then there were consequences. It's

2:25

also a story about karma, and

2:27

karma, my friends, is a real

2:29

bitch, and we'll

2:32

hear all about it after the break we

2:43

are back. Sarah

2:46

felt like a new woman when she started the affair with Keith.

2:49

But let's back up a little bit, because I want to hear

2:51

the whole story. I want us to start at the

2:53

very beginning of Sarah's first marriage. Before

2:56

she met Keith, I

2:59

was married, and I

3:01

wouldn't say that it was an unhappy

3:04

marriage at all. I would say it was a marriage

3:06

like other marriages. You know, the head its great

3:08

weeks, and it head it's not so great weeks.

3:10

But it was just a nice, steady, little

3:12

marriage. And I was young. I was twenty five,

3:15

I had a child, a baby. My

3:18

daughter was not yet a year old when

3:20

I met Keith, and he

3:22

was her doctor, and he had some

3:25

running magazines in the lobby and

3:27

I was reading them, and so we started

3:29

talking about the fact that we both run. They

3:32

were both into running, and Keith

3:34

was pretty saxy. That didn't hurt.

3:37

The two of them went for a run one day and

3:40

the feeling between them was something Karen

3:42

had never felt before, and

3:46

afterwards ended up talking for probably

3:49

two hours. I found it so easy

3:51

to be with him, and there was just a sparkle.

3:54

We didn't want to leave after the run, so and

3:56

that started it. So

3:58

they began an affair a

4:01

few months ago by but then Sarah's

4:03

guilt took over and she told Keith that this

4:05

just couldn't happen. It had

4:07

to end. I

4:10

said, hey, we've got to stop this. We've

4:12

got families. You've got a family, I've got a family.

4:14

We can't do this. So he went home

4:17

and he said, if we go back to our families,

4:19

all I'm going to lose you. I

4:21

have to say that what Keith did next is

4:23

a pretty big, a whole move, And

4:26

so he went home that night without telling

4:28

me and told his wife. It was so

4:30

scary because it blew up all

4:32

over this small town and became town

4:35

knowledge. It was on the front burner of

4:37

the town until the next affair came along and blew

4:39

us away, which was a relief for me. Become

4:42

sort of outcast in the town's

4:44

eyes, and then your children's friends parents become very

4:47

put off by you. And that's always hard because

4:49

when it affects your children, you feel it. It's

4:52

more painful. Everyone

4:54

was gossiping about Sarah and Keith. Everyone

5:00

had an opinion, and in the moment

5:03

that felt like complete shit. But

5:06

in hindsight, Sarah realized

5:08

something that I actually found fascinating.

5:12

You know what's interesting is I've

5:15

discovered this numerous times,

5:18

not just with this affair, but the

5:20

people who come out the loudest

5:23

and the strongest against an affair. The people

5:25

who are the most indignant are

5:28

generally the people who are

5:31

divorced. A year later, it

5:34

resonates, it strikes accord with him somewhere.

5:37

For instance, the woman who played the organ

5:39

in our church in our small town, she hated

5:41

me, and she was vicious in her hatred. You know,

5:43

some people just sort of mildly dislike

5:46

you or kind of just move away

5:48

from you, but she made

5:51

sure that I knew how much she hated me. Within

5:54

a year she was divorced. The

5:56

same thing happened with my brother. My brother wouldn't

5:58

speak to me because he loved ex husband.

6:01

He was having an affair at the same time too, but he was

6:03

indignant about mine. That's

6:08

the kind of the weird thing about affairs is like, when

6:10

you're in one, you feel like it's right and that

6:12

you have the right to do it because you

6:15

are in love and this love

6:17

is bigger than whatever else is out

6:19

there. But then you become

6:21

indignant about, you know, your

6:23

best friend's husband leaving her so

6:26

interesting right. Eventually,

6:28

Keith and Sarah ended up leaving their marriages

6:30

for each other, and they were so

6:32

in love that all of the gossip didn't matter.

6:35

They traveled, they had a great house, they

6:37

blended their families, and they even had kids

6:40

together. It lasted like

6:42

this for more than a decade. Sarah

6:44

really thought that what she and Keith had was

6:47

going to last forever, that it

6:49

was a forever love, until one

6:51

day something changed.

6:56

It really literally never entered my mind

6:58

that he would cheat on me. I just thought our love

7:00

was so big, it was so beautiful. I just

7:03

didn't think anything would happen. Talk

7:05

me through When that happened, I felt

7:07

a shift between us and I wasn't

7:09

sure what was going on, and I think that at

7:12

some point I said, are you having an affair? And he said no.

7:15

And then one day I went into his office.

7:17

Our offices were right next door to each other. I

7:20

popped in on him and he was on the phone and

7:23

I could hear the voice on the other line was a woman,

7:26

and so when he hung up, I said, so,

7:28

who are you talking to? And then he

7:31

named his best friend, a guy.

7:34

That's when I knew

7:37

that he was having an affair. And then he

7:39

said, I need to talk to you and then

7:42

we met at home. He said we need

7:44

to go for a drive. The

7:46

way he told me it was awful because I

7:49

mean, I guess there's not a good way to tell someone, right, but

7:51

you would think there would be some dignity around it where

7:53

you could have some time and space. Basically,

7:56

I found out and had to take my kids to soccer. So

8:00

I drove about a block away from our

8:02

house and kind of went down this

8:04

lane into a little field and said I'm

8:06

in love with someone else. And I

8:09

was furious and asking who it was, and then

8:11

he wouldn't tell me. And when

8:13

I got out of the car, I kicked

8:15

the door on the passenger side so

8:18

hard that it was horribly

8:20

bashed in and beaten up. And

8:22

I just thought, well, every time she gets into the car, she's

8:25

going to have to think about me. Sarah

8:28

was shocked. She was shocked, and

8:31

she was pissed. And

8:33

now at this point in the story, you

8:35

might be thinking, what I did, Sarah,

8:39

You and Keith got together because

8:41

of an affair, because you both

8:44

cheated on other people. Why are

8:46

you so surprised that Keith

8:48

did this to you? Well,

8:51

she was surprised. We

8:53

never see things coming Sarah

8:56

was completely blindsided. I

9:00

never had doubts. He traveled, you

9:02

know, he went on trips sometimes,

9:04

like work trips or trips

9:07

with the guys, and

9:09

I never thought. I just thought our love was so big,

9:11

it was so beautiful. I just didn't think

9:13

anything would happen. It really literally

9:16

never entered my mind that he would cheat on

9:18

me. Sarah knew of this

9:20

woman from around town. She had

9:22

heard that there was this sexy frenchwoman,

9:24

but she'd never met her, and she

9:27

just had to see her in person. So

9:30

she decided to spy on her, and she

9:32

drove to where this other woman played tennis.

9:36

And I went to the racquet club for lunch with my

9:38

friend because I had never laid eyes on her, and

9:40

so she was on the courts playing and I

9:42

looked out and I was like, I'm

9:44

so fucked. She was so hot,

9:47

so incredibly hot, a year older

9:49

than I am. I think she had

9:51

a French accent. She was beautiful,

9:54

she was athletic, she was smart. God

9:57

that sucks. It sucked. I wanted

9:59

her to be off and I wanted to play young

10:01

and dumb. Yeah, young and dumb anything,

10:04

But you know, she truly was going

10:06

to be stiff competition for me. He

10:11

proclaimed that he was in love with her, he was

10:13

definitely going to marry

10:15

her. He was going to leave the family. It

10:17

wasn't about me, and it certainly wasn't about the kids.

10:21

Keith moved in with the sexy frenchwoman, but

10:23

still Sarah was determined

10:26

to get him back. I

10:28

thought, oh my gosh, we have these children from other

10:30

marriages that we've been raised together. We had full custody

10:32

of them. We have our own children. I'm

10:34

not like, I'm not doing this by myself.

10:37

Besides, we really do love each other. I know

10:39

we do. Sarah was not going to

10:41

go down quietly. No, no, no,

10:44

no. She hatched a plan. She

10:46

found out from some friends around town. Small

10:48

town. Remember, everyone knows everybody

10:50

else's business. She found out that this

10:52

other woman was about to take off to

10:55

Europe for the whole summer. And

10:57

so I told my friends in my yard

11:01

one night, drinking Gens

11:03

and Tonics and talking about the situation,

11:06

I said, I am going to seduce him while she's

11:08

away. I will do that. And

11:10

that is going to cause a problem between them,

11:12

because he said that he's going

11:15

to be honest with her. He hasn't been honest with me, but he

11:17

is going to turn over a leaf and be

11:19

honest with her. So I did. I seduced

11:21

him. It's not hard to

11:24

seduce him. And

11:26

you guys got back together. Yeah,

11:29

and so, so basically I had

11:31

accessed the code to his answering

11:33

machine. We had landlines back then, in those clunky

11:36

answering machines, and so you would call the number and put

11:38

in your code, and you could hear the messages.

11:40

And I could hear her saying, oh

11:42

could you do this to im? And too I love

11:44

and oh you know I'm suffering.

11:47

I saw. I listened to all of the messages,

11:49

eagerly replayed them, enjoyed them.

11:52

And then I know

11:54

I sound like an evil person, but anyway, and

11:57

then when she came back, she

11:59

broke it off, and so he moved back

12:01

in. But

12:03

could it last? Could it? Given

12:06

Keith's track record, was

12:08

another happy ending possible for Sarah?

12:12

Passed forward three years. I

12:15

had a big Thanksgiving planned. I've hosted

12:17

Thanksgiving every year, and I

12:19

had the house. I had done a lot of the food already.

12:22

It was Tuesday. Everyone was arriving the next

12:24

day. On Wednesday. We had everyone

12:26

from his side of the family coming, my side of the family

12:28

coming, and I decided to

12:30

go for a run. And

12:33

the phone was ringing as I was leaving to go

12:35

for the run, and I almost didn't answer it, and I

12:37

was like, what if it's one of the kids' schools,

12:39

what if someone's sick. I guess I'd better answer, and

12:41

it answered it and it was the fiance

12:45

of the woman that

12:47

he had had the affair with. By

12:53

the way, this is the new fiance of

12:55

the sexy frenchwoman that Keith had left

12:57

Sarah for three years earlier. This

13:01

new fiance, well, he had

13:03

some news. He discovered

13:05

that the sexy frenchwoman was still having an affair

13:07

with Keith. You know, Keith had

13:09

still been seeing her. So I

13:12

went to his office. I called him in. I said, I've got to talk

13:14

to you, and he goes, I'm busy, I got appointments. I go, I don't care.

13:16

And then I went and I just said, you're gonna get on

13:18

the phone and you're gonna call everyone and you're

13:20

gonna tell him what you did and

13:23

why we're canceling Thanksgiving. But I'm not doing

13:25

Thanksgiving and I'm not having all these people come in

13:28

with this hanging around. There's no way.

13:30

And at that point there was just

13:32

like it was like a garage door that went down. I

13:34

was done this time.

13:36

Sarah was finally and truly

13:39

done. But she did tell

13:41

me that she doesn't regret getting him back for

13:44

those three years. She says she's

13:46

happy that her kids got three more years

13:48

with both parents under the same roof. Of

13:50

course, she says that in hindsight,

13:54

in the moment she was insane

13:56

with fury. It's sort

13:58

of ironic how we

14:00

won't accept for ourselves what we're willing

14:02

to do sometimes. But I

14:05

was furious. Yes, you

14:07

were furious, and you didn't expect it, and

14:10

you were a little bit vidictive

14:13

about it. Can you talk to me about that? So

14:16

I went to take the children back

14:18

to their dad's house while

14:20

he was living with her, and he was gone,

14:23

and they needed a book bag or a school

14:25

bag something, and so we

14:27

went in to get their bag, and

14:30

I decided I was going to use the restroom, and

14:33

I saw her toilet

14:36

rees sitting on the counter, and I saw

14:39

a jar of oil

14:41

of La face cream, and

14:43

so I took a piss

14:45

in the face cream and took

14:47

a toothpick and stirred it up and

14:50

put the lid back on, And then every time I

14:52

saw her after that, I thought, you're

14:55

wearing my piss on your face, and you've

14:59

got my p your face, So yeah,

15:01

you were pissed. I was literally

15:03

pissed. Right, Why do you think that was

15:06

even though you had been on the other side of this. I

15:09

was so sure of our love. I

15:11

was so sure of it. I expected that we

15:13

were going to bring our grand babies home to that

15:15

house where we had brought our children home, to that

15:18

big, beautiful house. I thought we were going to continue

15:21

to travel and throw parties

15:23

and do all the fun

15:25

things. We just had a big life. There

15:28

was just no part of me believe that believed

15:30

in the dissolution of that. Weirdly,

15:36

I asked Sarah if she ever thought

15:38

that maybe Keith's first wife felt

15:40

the exact same way about her all

15:42

those years ago. I

15:44

never thought about that. Maybe so maybe.

15:47

So how do you feel about affairs now?

15:50

I think it's really complicated. I don't think

15:52

there was really black and white in

15:54

affairs. I think that I have a

15:56

lot of empathy and compassion for people

15:58

who fall in love and are married to other

16:00

people. I have good friends to

16:03

whom this has happened, and so I have

16:05

compassion for it, and I'm also

16:08

revolted by it. I hate

16:10

affairs, so I mean, unpack

16:13

that a little bit for me. How can you feel that way when

16:15

it also brought you the

16:18

person who was, for a time the love of your life and

16:20

two more of your kids. I

16:22

guess I've never stopped to think about

16:25

that. I guess when I'm mad about

16:27

affairs, it's typically happening

16:30

to someone that I care very much about. And

16:32

I don't care about the affair that's going on

16:34

out there where I'm not connected to the person. That's

16:37

their business. And you know, people have

16:39

affairs, but if it's happening

16:41

to someone I love, it depends on which side

16:43

they're on. If they're having the affair, I have

16:45

empathy for them. If it's happening to them, I'm

16:47

curious. I

16:49

had to know if Sarah's experience has made her

16:51

think at all differently about

16:53

monogamy, if her ideas

16:55

about it have shifted after everything

16:58

that she's been through. So

17:01

I have friends, and I think maybe younger people

17:04

are figuring this out in

17:07

our defining relationships in different ways. And

17:09

I think They're basically

17:12

saying, we're not going to do what our parents did, which

17:14

was lie and cheat and revise

17:17

stories and tell us lies

17:20

for all of our lives. We are going to do it our way.

17:22

We realize that we don't want to be monogamous,

17:24

so we are in an open relationship.

17:27

And I do appreciate the fact

17:29

that polyamorous people and

17:32

thruffles and open marriages might

17:34

bring some relief to the tension and pressure

17:37

that affairs brought to

17:39

us. I know affairs are still going

17:41

on to this day, but I think millennials

17:44

and gen zers are figuring out

17:46

a little bit better. Maybe. And

17:49

Yet, while polyamory and open

17:51

marriages seem to be an answer

17:53

for some women, at least some women

17:56

in a certain generation with certain privileges,

17:59

they could also come with the same messages,

18:02

the same drama, the same

18:04

disappointments. There

18:06

may not be lying, but there are still

18:08

people who are going to get hurt and boundaries

18:10

that need to be constantly renegotiated every

18:13

time they're crossed. But back

18:16

to Sarah for a second. Sarah

18:18

did eventually get her happy ending, it

18:21

just wasn't the one that she expected. I

18:26

was never going to get married again, I'm obviously not very good

18:28

at marriage, and I'm okay with accepting

18:30

that about myself. But with

18:33

my current husband, as I call him, he hates

18:35

to be called out, but I call him that. We've been

18:37

together twenty he's just the opposite

18:40

of Keith, and

18:43

we have such such a wonderful relationship

18:45

and such a happy life. So it turns out

18:48

that happy lives can happen even if you hold

18:50

on to that one that you think this

18:53

is it and I can't let it go. If

18:55

you just open up, I'm so much better off. I

18:57

mean, it's been wonderful. Affairs

19:03

usually don't go according to plan, but

19:05

then neither does life. After

19:08

the break, we'll get back to the questions we sit out

19:10

to answer at the beginning of this podcast, are

19:13

more women having affairs? And if

19:15

women are cheating more? Why

19:21

we are back? So

19:23

after all of these conversations and everything

19:25

I've learned about women and affairs, I

19:28

went back to Susan Shapiro Barish, the

19:30

author of the book this podcast is based on. Susan

19:33

has interviewed hundreds of women who've had affairs

19:35

over the past thirty years, and she was

19:38

able to tell me that through her research. She

19:40

can tell us that women absolutely

19:42

are having more affairs these days, and

19:45

they're talking about it more so.

19:49

I do think there's an increase, and that includes

19:51

affairs of the mind and workplace affairs

19:54

and just all sorts of affairs.

19:57

As I write in my book, you can find

19:59

these low vers at every turn. Accessibility

20:03

to one's lover has

20:05

really evolved since

20:07

I started this study, and

20:11

the access to a lover is

20:13

so facil and so easy,

20:16

and women found that really

20:19

encouraging. I mean, some women described

20:21

it as a really good

20:23

reason to do it. You know, it's so

20:25

easy to go on Facebook. Women say,

20:28

well, you know, I'm about ready, I'm

20:30

disappointed enough, I'm disillusioned

20:32

enough. I've been at this a long time

20:35

and I have access and I

20:37

would like to explore it. So that's really

20:39

something that's evolved. We

20:42

called this show She Wants More.

20:45

We called it that because it's about women going

20:47

after what they want, breaking barriers,

20:50

destroying stigmas, finding empowerment

20:52

in places that have been closed off to them by

20:54

society and culture for so long.

20:58

At the end of the day, affairs can empower

21:00

you, and they can also

21:02

leave a mess in their wake. But

21:05

there's still the fact that women tend to be

21:08

judged much more harshly for their affairs

21:10

than men do. That is why

21:12

we needed to hear these stories. We

21:15

needed to hear these stories so we can talk about it.

21:18

We need to hear these stories so we can

21:20

figure out what we all want

21:23

and deserve. If we've learned

21:26

anything making this podcast,

21:29

there's nothing wrong with wanting to be happy

21:31

and fulfilled. There's nothing

21:33

wrong with wanting more.

21:38

Did you take my coffee? Didn't touch a coffee?

21:41

Oh that's my husband Nick. He

21:43

always pops in on my podcasts and

21:46

we've managed to keep him off this one until

21:48

right now. All

21:50

right, are you going to go have

21:52

an affair? Now? No, I'm

21:56

tired, I'm stressed, I have a million

21:59

jobs. I mostly don't even want

22:01

to have sex with you. Oh isn't that precious?

22:03

Oh? No idea. But also,

22:05

look, I'm

22:08

pretty happy on the happiness

22:10

and fulfilled human scale, I'm like a

22:12

nine. But there are a lot

22:14

of women out there who are not happy

22:17

in their marriages, who don't feel fulfilled,

22:19

who don't have husbands, who take both

22:21

kids to school in the morning like

22:24

you just did, and who

22:26

are not getting what they need. And I

22:29

talk to those women and I get

22:32

that they deserve something

22:34

else outside of

22:37

their marriage, and do I think it's right?

22:39

Not always, but it's not my place to judge.

22:42

And frankly, men have

22:44

been having the affairs forever,

22:48

and I think it's just time that women get

22:50

the same. Goddamn grace. I

22:54

have a lot of questions about that. But so

22:57

you're going to delete that Ashley Madison account?

23:00

Oh shit, totally forgot

23:02

that was still out there. Wait do you see

23:04

mine?

23:10

This has been She Wants More. All

23:14

eight episodes are now available for you to binge

23:17

and share with your friends. I

23:19

hope it starts some fun conversations. She

23:26

Wants More was inspired by the book A Passion

23:29

for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish.

23:31

It was adapted for audio by executive

23:34

producers Merrill Poster, Kara

23:36

Pfeiffer, and Susan Shapiro Bearish.

23:39

She Wants More is hosted and reported by me

23:41

Joe Piazza. Jennifer

23:43

Bassett is our lead producer and story editor.

23:47

Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich.

23:49

Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpff

23:52

and Hamilton Lighthouser. Our

23:54

Executive producers for iHeart are Ali

23:56

Perry and Nikki Eatore. She

23:59

wants more as a production of iHeart podcasts.

24:02

From more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio

24:04

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

24:07

you listen to your favorite shows.