0:02

Hi Peeps! You're listening to She's

0:04

My Cherry Pie, the baking podcast

0:06

from the Cherry Bomb Podcast Network.

0:09

I'm your host, Jesse Sheehan. I'm

0:11

a baker, recipe developer, and author

0:13

of four baking books, including Salty,

0:15

Cheezy, Urby, Crispy, Snackable Bakes. On

0:17

each episode, I hang out with

0:20

the sweetest bakers around and take

0:22

a deep dive into their signature

0:24

bakes. Today's guest is Jessica

0:26

Battellana, the staff editor at King

0:28

Arthur Bacon Company, and the co-author

0:31

of the New York Times best-selling

0:33

cookbook, The Big Book of Bread.

0:35

The book is a literal baking

0:38

Bible from the King Arthur team

0:40

and was released last year. It's

0:42

filled with 125 recipes for yeast

0:45

and naturally leaven breads, for novices

0:47

and advanced bakers alike. Jessica

0:49

is also an award-winning food writer

0:51

and recipe developer whose work has

0:54

appeared in the New York Times,

0:56

Food and Wine, and more. She's

0:58

written her own cookbook and co-authored

1:00

several others, and she's the co-host

1:03

of the new podcast, Things Bakers

1:05

Know, which debuts this spring from

1:07

the King Arthur baking company. Jessica

1:09

got her start in professional kitchens before

1:11

shifting to food media. She joins me

1:13

to talk about her new book and

1:16

walks me through the recipe for cinnamon

1:18

raisined swirl bread from the Big Book

1:20

of Bread. Jessica and I chat about

1:22

the importance of eating dessert every day

1:24

and why it's a good idea to

1:26

have cookie dough in your freezer at

1:28

all times and now working at a

1:30

baking company has changed her cooking. I

1:32

learned so much from chatting with Jessica,

1:34

so stay tuned for our chat. Cherry

1:36

Bomb's next issue is all about

1:38

love, and I think you're going

1:41

to love the cover. It features

1:43

Elona, Olivia, and Adriana Mar, the

1:46

sister trio that has won everyone's

1:48

hearts for their positive message of

1:50

confidence and self-love. The issue is

1:53

full of joyful stories and recipes.

1:55

To snag a copy, head to

1:57

cherrybomb.com or click the link. in

2:00

our show notes, or visit

2:02

your favorite bookstore or culinary

2:04

shop to pick up an issue. Let's

2:06

chat with today's guest. Jessica,

2:09

so excited to have you on She's

2:11

My Cherry Pie and to talk Cinnamon

2:13

Raisin swirl bread with you and so

2:16

much more. I'm so happy to be

2:18

here. I love to start interviews with

2:20

early baking memories. It can be

2:22

something you baked or a baked

2:24

good that you ate that you

2:26

remember. Can you tell us about

2:28

one of yours? Yes, you know,

2:30

my mom was a fabulous cook,

2:32

but not a great baker. She

2:35

didn't love baking, but I always

2:37

loved sweet things. Like I remember,

2:39

you know, eating the brown sugar

2:41

out of the package and things

2:43

like that. So I think because my

2:45

mom didn't bake that much, I

2:47

sort of took it upon myself

2:49

to learn how to bake. pretty early on

2:51

and the first thing that I remember baking

2:54

was a brownie recipe from 17 magazine and

2:56

now I feel like my memory must

2:58

be faulty because I'm like did

3:00

17 magazine really publish brownie? I

3:02

haven't fact checked myself on this

3:04

but my recollection was that the

3:06

brownie recipe was from 17 magazine

3:08

and I made that brownie recipe I don't

3:10

know probably dozens of times and so

3:13

much that my family was like okay

3:15

actually no more brownies and then I

3:17

started bringing brownies the librarians, because

3:19

I went to the library a lot

3:22

and, you know, to friends. And

3:24

I think I quickly understood the sort

3:26

of power of a baked good to

3:28

win people over. And so then I

3:30

really got hooked. But I also remember

3:32

messing those brownies up every which way,

3:35

like always forgetting an ingredient or,

3:37

you know, like, I mean, I

3:39

think there is something to that, like,

3:41

if you make the same recipe. over and

3:43

over again, and you make those mistakes, you

3:45

get very good at that one thing. So

3:47

that's the first thing that I really remember

3:50

baking. And I did say earlier my

3:52

mom was not a great baker, which is

3:54

true, but we always had homemade birthday cakes

3:56

throughout my childhood. There are three kids

3:59

in my family. all got to pick our

4:01

birthday cake and my mom made those from

4:03

scratch which knowing that my mom didn't

4:05

love baking that much is really like

4:07

a tremendous act of love. I read

4:09

also that not only did she make birthday

4:12

cakes were there also maybe popcorn

4:14

balls? Oh yes popcorn balls and I

4:16

love a popcorn ball. Yeah she would

4:18

make them for Halloween you know a

4:20

lot of these recipes she didn't write

4:22

down and I didn't make them with

4:24

her so I you know I think

4:26

they're a pretty standard like a molacicy

4:28

peanuts popcorn, you know, formed in a

4:30

ball and then put in ziploc bags. And I

4:32

guess we would give them, I don't know if

4:34

we would eat them, if we'd give them out,

4:37

but yeah, I haven't thought about that in a

4:39

long time, but those were quite good. I should

4:41

make them for my own kids. They'd probably

4:43

be into it. Yeah, I think

4:45

popcorn balls. They don't get enough love.

4:47

Can you tell us about the imaginary talent

4:49

shows that you would do in your kitchen

4:51

when you were a little in front of

4:53

the, in front of the, in front of

4:55

the, in front of the, when we first

4:58

moved into that house, my parents bought

5:00

that house right before I was born,

5:02

so in the fall of 1978, and the kitchen

5:04

at that time had it, it was carpeted,

5:07

walled wall, hazily, horrible, I mean

5:09

a carpeted kitchen is pretty much

5:11

the most disgusting thing I can think

5:13

of. And it was like that for

5:15

probably the first 10 years of my

5:18

childhood, you know, the house was, it

5:20

wasn't really put together right. It was

5:22

a house from the 50s, sort of

5:24

mid-century, which is very unusual for Vermont,

5:26

especially at that time. But it had

5:28

these giant windows in the kitchen, two sort

5:31

of giant windows. And so the only way

5:33

to orient the stove was like to push

5:35

it up against the wall where it was

5:37

with a window behind it. You know, I

5:39

used to cook things or bake things in

5:42

Vermont in the winter. It gets dark early,

5:44

and so, you know, by the time you're

5:46

making dinner, it's... pitch black outside. And so

5:48

I could see myself reflected in the

5:50

window and I would just like do

5:52

a little fake cooking show. Because we

5:55

watched all those, we watched the Julia Child

5:57

Show, you know, we watched the Galloping

5:59

Gourmet. My mom was into all of

6:01

those so I had seen food television and

6:03

I was just making my own little show

6:05

I love it and that was actually

6:07

gonna be my next question because I'm

6:09

realizing that a lot of my guests

6:12

some of their kind of early training

6:14

or early training in quotes or early

6:16

inspiration was cooking shows so was that

6:18

a part of like where you were

6:20

exposed to watching people cook and obviously

6:22

your mom was into it yeah I

6:24

mean we watched we also didn't have

6:26

cable I mean you know, there weren't

6:28

food shows on cable then, but it

6:30

was all PBS. It was like Marian

6:32

Esposito and the Frugal Gourmet, yeah, and

6:34

the Galpin Gourmet, the Graham Care, and

6:36

of course Julie Child, and then, you

6:38

know, years later, when I was sort of

6:41

starting to get into food, My first job

6:43

I got hired, I was living in

6:45

Boston and I got hired by WGBH,

6:47

they were doing some retrospective of Julia

6:49

Child and the job that I was

6:51

hired for was to watch all of the

6:53

In Julia's Kitchen with Master Chef series

6:56

and like annotate it. So like at

6:58

minute one, Julia sees, whatever, you know,

7:00

like and minute 25 she's making her

7:02

a banana sauce or I watch those

7:04

videos. I mean, you have to watch

7:06

them over and over to get that timing

7:08

right. So I. I'm sure your mom

7:10

had many, but did you have a

7:13

very deep knowledge of and very

7:15

strong memories of. I want that

7:17

to be my job. It was great.

7:19

It was great for a beginning cook

7:22

because, I mean, those are like, if

7:24

you want to be, you know, a

7:26

baker, a cook, in Julie's Kitchen,

7:28

master-chiefs, is like, it's a

7:30

master class in cooking and

7:33

cooking and baking. I'm sure

7:35

your mom had a big

7:37

collection of... cookbooks, but I don't

7:39

remember, I don't remember ever

7:41

cooking from them. I mean, I'm sure

7:44

she got inspiration from them, which honestly

7:46

is really what I do now. Like

7:48

I have a crazy, huge, ridiculous cookbook

7:50

library, but rarely do I cook, you

7:53

know, straight from a cookbook, you know,

7:55

I read them sort of like novels and

7:57

I get inspiration, and I think that

7:59

was I think that was what my

8:01

mom did as well. I mean, we

8:03

had like all the standards, like the

8:06

Fannie Farmer, Joy of Cooking, all of

8:08

that. She did really like Florence Lynn.

8:10

It's a Chinese cookbook. And my mom

8:12

really liked Chinese food, really liked Chinese

8:14

food, really liked to cook and eat

8:16

Chinese food. So she cooked from that

8:18

book a fair amount. And that I

8:20

think she followed the recipe because it

8:22

was such a new cuisine for her

8:24

that she needed a little bit of

8:27

help. But yeah. Let's. Hi everybody, it's

8:29

Kerry Diamond, founder of Cherry Bomb and

8:31

host of Radio Cherry Bomb. Have you

8:33

dreamed of visiting Las Vegas? Join me

8:35

and Team Cherry Bomb on Friday March

8:37

7th and Saturday March 8th for a

8:39

special series of events in Vegas. We're

8:41

hosting a fun party in the arts

8:43

district at the acclaimed Velvitine Rabbit Bar.

8:45

Think Terrific Cocktails and Mocktales, Tarocard Readings.

8:48

I will be first in line for

8:50

that, and the city's best food trucks.

8:52

Then Saturday at the Win, we have

8:54

a special networking breakfast and panel conversations

8:56

with some of the women shaking up

8:58

the culinary scene. Then Saturday night, there's

9:00

dinner at the brand new Jalina at

9:02

the Venetian. Tickets are on sale at

9:04

cherry balm.com right now. You can buy

9:06

tickets to the individual events or a

9:09

weekend pass. We'd love to see you

9:11

there. Peeps, have you heard about cherry

9:13

balm's Jubilee? It's our annual conference for

9:15

women in food, drink, and hospitality, and

9:17

it's happening Saturday, April 12th in New

9:19

York City. I always love being at

9:21

Jubilee and connecting with other bakers, pastry

9:23

chefs, and cookbook authors. If you'd like

9:25

to join us, you can get tickets

9:27

at Cherry Bomb.com. If you're an official

9:30

bomb squad member, check your inbox for

9:32

special member pricing. I hope to see

9:34

you there. Now back to our guest.

9:36

I wanted to jump ahead to your

9:38

first cookbook, repertoire, which as you and

9:40

I have discussed, I loved when it

9:42

came out and I still make the

9:44

candy pork recipe from the book, which

9:46

I highly recommend. Listeners make. And in

9:48

repertoire, you write that you're a recipe

9:51

writer, but not much for rules. And

9:53

I thought that was very, very true.

9:55

with savory cooking, I feel like. Maybe

9:57

it's a cliche to say, but it's

9:59

a lot more spontaneous, it allows a

10:01

lot more wiggle room. But would you

10:03

say that still is true? Working for

10:05

a baking company, having written a New

10:07

York Times best-selling cookbook about bread, would

10:09

you say you still feel like you're

10:12

a recipe writer but less rule-focused, or

10:14

do you feel like now rules have

10:16

had to come into the foray a

10:18

little bit more? Yeah, I mean I

10:20

think rules have entered the chat. That's

10:22

a better way of flitting it. I

10:24

think that's still true for my for

10:26

my savory cooking, for sure. I think

10:28

you can get away with a lot

10:30

more. There's a lot more wiggle room,

10:33

which is why I think some people

10:35

really gravitate towards cooking and never bake

10:37

or really gravitate towards baking and never

10:39

cook. You know, and my co-authorsers Martin

10:41

Philip and Melanie Wanders, who wrote the

10:43

big book of bread with me. They're

10:45

real bakers. And so there is a

10:47

sort of rigor to being a good

10:49

baker. And you know, that sounds, rigor

10:51

makes it sound negative, and I don't

10:54

mean it sound negative, but I think,

10:56

you know, you're going to get better

10:58

results if you bake by weight, if

11:00

you follow some guidelines. And so in

11:02

some ways, I find it actually... especially

11:04

the baking by weight which is what

11:06

I do exclusively now to be quite

11:08

free actually because you're not wondering like

11:10

is it going to turn out the

11:12

same way I did last time like

11:15

it frees up some of the guesswork

11:17

especially for bread baking where I think

11:19

there's other things that you have to

11:21

guess at so like let's not start

11:23

with guessing whether or not the right

11:25

amount of flour in the bowl so

11:27

yeah more rules but within that I

11:29

mean I do think bread baking in

11:31

particular is a both an art and

11:34

a science. There is obviously the sort

11:36

of tactical aspect of it, but then

11:38

there is the intuitive part of it.

11:40

And I think that's why I think

11:42

it's an interesting and exciting challenge, even

11:44

for bakers who have baked other things,

11:46

because no day is the same. No

11:48

dough is the same. One hundred percent.

11:50

Bread is so exciting, and in some

11:52

ways, the rewards of seeing a loaf

11:55

come out of the oven are like

11:57

no. You're a staff editor at King

11:59

Arthur Bacon Company. How has working for

12:01

a baking company, would you say, changed

12:03

your cooking, if at all? I don't

12:05

know that it has changed my cooking

12:07

so much. I mean, I'm certainly baking

12:09

more than I ever did before. And

12:11

particularly, of course, like, you know, the

12:13

natural consequence of working on a bread

12:16

book for two years is that you

12:18

bake a lot of bread. I mean,

12:20

I was an occasional bread baker before,

12:22

and now I am a devoted... bread

12:24

baker, you know, is part of sort

12:26

of like the ritual and routine of

12:28

my home cooking life. So that has

12:30

changed. Would you say that means you

12:32

still identify as a cook, but maybe

12:34

also as a baker as well? I

12:37

think so, yeah. I think I sort

12:39

of have a foot in both worlds,

12:41

which is nice. Like I like both

12:43

things. I think they activate different parts

12:45

of my brain. What is probably the

12:47

most seismic shift for me is before

12:49

I started at King Arthur I joined

12:51

the company two years ago I had

12:53

been freelancing for most of my career

12:55

and most of that time I had

12:58

spent working on different cookbooks you know

13:00

my own cookbook but then also co-authoring

13:02

cookbooks with other chefs and bakers you

13:04

know I had a more flexible schedule

13:06

too like I was not sort of

13:08

beholden to the like nine to five

13:10

and so that was a change for

13:12

me because I keep pretty you know

13:14

standard hours at King Arthur and so

13:16

I understood in a new and a

13:19

different way, like that sort of pressure

13:21

of like, oh, it's five o'clock, and

13:23

now it's time to start dinner, and

13:25

like, what are we going to do?

13:27

You know, whereas when I was recipe

13:29

testing and working on books, there was

13:31

always something to eat, because I would

13:33

have spent my work day, you know,

13:35

making stuff. So that was kind of

13:37

like a little wake-up call for me

13:40

of like, okay, well, what am I

13:42

willing to do at the end of

13:44

the end of the day? And where

13:46

can I, and where can I, and

13:48

where can I'm going? fitting bread baking

13:50

into the cracks of your day. I

13:52

love that expression. I sort of have

13:54

taken that to apply to my savory

13:56

cooking too, so you know when I'm

13:58

making my kids lunches, I'm also grating

14:01

cheese for dinner or I'm salting the

14:03

meat or I... I'm mixing the bread

14:05

dough because I don't have like huge

14:07

chunks of time just to mess around

14:09

in the kitchen the way that I

14:11

used to. Has bread baking become like

14:13

a weekly thing now? Do you have

14:15

always have homemade bread at home? We

14:17

do. Yeah. And I, it is great.

14:19

And it's funny because I like to,

14:22

you know, I like to bake through

14:24

a lot of the different recipes in

14:26

the book and beyond and my kids

14:28

would like me just to make white

14:30

sandwich bread every week. Thank you. Yeah,

14:32

when I try and branch out, they're

14:34

like, that's fine, but could you just...

14:36

Can we have wife and again? I

14:38

want to get into the big book

14:40

of red, but just before I do

14:43

so, there were a couple of things

14:45

that I read about you that I

14:47

loved. First of all, that you're an

14:49

ardent supporter of eating dessert every day.

14:51

And you also say that when you

14:53

were, at least when you were rating

14:55

repertoire, your family was a dessert. every

14:57

night kind of family. And that's how

14:59

I was raised. And I just wondered

15:01

if, first of all, if the family

15:04

is still now, I think when you

15:06

wrote the book, your kids were pretty

15:08

little, now they're a little bit older,

15:10

if that has changed at all. I

15:12

think you also said you always have

15:14

chocolate chip cookie dough in your freezer.

15:16

I wonder if all of those sweets,

15:18

which I hope is the case, are

15:20

still around, or if you've kind of

15:23

like, you're like, no, no, I'm a

15:25

bread lady. I don't know, I mean,

15:27

who knows what's going to happen tomorrow.

15:29

It's like you might as well have

15:31

the dessert. Yeah, we do have dessert

15:33

every night. And it's not always like

15:35

a home-baked dessert. I mean, don't get

15:37

me wrong. It's not like I'm whipping

15:39

up a cake every day. There is

15:41

always cookie dough in the freezer. which

15:44

I feel to me is like, it's

15:46

like a security blanket, you know, like

15:48

no matter what happens. Well, I really

15:50

sort of reached the zenith of my

15:52

life when I moved here to Maine

15:54

from San Francisco in 2020 and one

15:56

of the first purchases was a chest

15:58

freezer and I just felt like I

16:00

had arrived. You know, I like. So

16:02

we have more freezer space and so

16:05

we always have cookie dough or we'll

16:07

have, you know, we have ice cream.

16:09

And probably once a week I'll bake.

16:11

something, but we do like sweet things,

16:13

which makes me well suited to my

16:15

job. And, you know, sometimes my wife

16:17

hears me on a conference call and

16:19

she's like, oh, another one of your

16:21

conference calls about cupcakes. Yeah. She's like,

16:23

God, you have a hard job. It's

16:26

hard to get a lot of sympathy.

16:28

You're really bringing hell in the bacon.

16:30

All right. Now I want to talk

16:32

about the big book of bread, the

16:34

most wide raging bread book to be

16:36

published in a decade is something I

16:38

read about. best-selling book in its category

16:40

and that was so incredible just having

16:42

spoken to you and other King Arthur

16:44

folks and I knew that was I

16:47

mean it's everybody's goal but wow you

16:49

guys killed it kicked out of the

16:51

park so happy for you but I

16:53

wondered about this idea of the most

16:55

wide-ranging breadbook and it's a gorgeous book

16:57

the most wide-ranging breadbook to be published

16:59

in a decade for those that haven't

17:01

seen the book yet what can a

17:03

reader expect from this incredible tome So

17:05

it's broken into six recipe chapters. Flatbreads,

17:08

panloaves, hearthloaves, which is where a lot,

17:10

but not all the sourdough recipes are.

17:12

A chapter on buns, bagels, and rolls.

17:14

a chapter of fancy breads, which are

17:16

the enriched loaves, and then we have

17:18

a chapter of things to make with

17:20

bread. So when you have, you know,

17:22

leftover bits and bobs of bread, what

17:24

can you transform it into? And then

17:26

the book starts with a very robust

17:29

or step-by-step technique section because all of

17:31

these breads essentially are using the same

17:33

techniques over and It was both a

17:35

tactical choice because if we repeated those

17:37

instructions for every recipe, it would be

17:39

like the big big big book of

17:41

bread. But also this idea of like

17:43

master these skills because they're going to

17:45

show up over and over again. And

17:47

so if you spend some time reading

17:50

that section, then you're going to be

17:52

set up for everything that follows. And

17:54

then we also included a section in

17:56

the center of the book sort of

17:58

right at the heart called a sourdope

18:00

primer, which is a guide to all

18:02

things that were to how to start

18:04

your starter, how to feed your starter,

18:06

and maintain that, and then bake with

18:08

it. Tell us about the collaborative process

18:11

of developing the structure of the book,

18:13

developing the recipes themselves. I think you

18:15

wrote the headnotes, but I wondered if

18:17

you were the headnote writer, and I

18:19

also wondered, were you like the most

18:21

experienced writer of the three, and the

18:23

other two were the more experienced bakers?

18:25

Is that fair to say? First of

18:27

all, I should say that Melanie Wanders

18:29

and Martin Philip, who are also employee

18:32

owners at King Arthur, and wrote this

18:34

book with me, are just wonderful. They're

18:36

top humans. Like I got, I really

18:38

hit the jackpot being on this, working

18:40

on this project with them, and I

18:42

think as I have gotten older, I

18:44

have seen how working in collaboration just

18:46

can just be so much richer than

18:48

working, you know, in this sort of

18:50

lone wolf way. And it was especially

18:53

true, this book, like we all brought...

18:55

our own skill set to the table.

18:57

And so I have written the most

18:59

cookbooks out of the three of us.

19:01

Martin has also written his own cookbook,

19:03

bread, cookbook, which is essays and bread

19:05

and is a brilliant and beautiful book,

19:07

but I have put together, I don't

19:09

know, I think this is my 13th

19:12

or 14th book. So I think in

19:14

terms of like concepting, like what a

19:16

book should be, what it should look

19:18

like, what will make it interesting. I

19:20

do have a lot of experience in

19:22

that area. at King Arthur for, I

19:24

don't know, six or seven years, every

19:26

day, hundreds of loaves of bread. So

19:28

he brought this expertise for bread baking

19:30

that was tremendous. Melanie is in our

19:33

research and development team, and prior to

19:35

that was a pastry chef and ran

19:37

a chocolate shop with her husband. And

19:39

so she, you know, when we're talking

19:41

about the rigor, like, God bless Melanie,

19:43

for just bringing that sort of like

19:45

attention to detail. and commitment to just

19:47

testing and testing and testing and testing

19:49

until something was perfect. Well beyond the

19:51

point that I was like, I think

19:54

it's fine. Okay. And she would be

19:56

like, just one more test. So I.

19:58

think, you know, we were sort of

20:00

like the three-legged stool and Martin and

20:02

Mel really developed all of the recipes.

20:04

And then, you know, I wrote all

20:06

the rest of the copy in the

20:08

book. And I often feel like in

20:10

all of my cookbook collaborations, and in

20:12

this one as well, just I sort

20:15

of am always waving the white flag

20:17

of the home cook, like, can they

20:19

do that? How do we make sure

20:21

they're successful? I was the least experienced

20:23

bread baker of the three of us

20:25

going into it. So I was waving

20:27

that wave flag a lot, just being,

20:29

you know, a lot of text between

20:31

us like, is this right? Is this

20:33

what I should do? What about this?

20:36

And I think that sort of exchange

20:38

between the three of us, you know,

20:40

made the book better, made the recipes

20:42

better because I'm like, hopefully have asked

20:44

like every question of the two of

20:46

them and of, you know, the other

20:48

experts in the company that anyone at

20:50

home would ever ask. Once Mel felt

20:52

like the recipe in the book. I've

20:54

made almost every recipe in the book.

20:57

There are some recipes that Martin developed

20:59

that Mel cross-tested. Most of the recipes

21:01

that Mel developed, I cross-tested. And then

21:03

of course, our test kitchen team at

21:05

King Arthur tested all of them, because

21:07

we love to test. That's another. I

21:09

mean, that's the thing about King Arthur,

21:11

too, is that people come to us

21:13

expecting stuff to work. They're nothing more

21:15

aggravating than getting a book where something

21:18

doesn't work. So now I want to

21:20

talk about the cinnamon raisin swirl bread

21:22

in the book, and what's amazing and

21:24

special about this particular bread is that

21:26

there are several versions of it, completely

21:28

different flavor profiles, which I love seeing

21:30

one bread recipe be able to become

21:32

so many different things. It can become

21:34

Mexican chocolate swirl bread, ducas, French onion

21:36

swirl bread, and lemon swirl bread. Do

21:39

you recall who came up with the

21:41

idea for the swirl bread and its

21:43

variations? I think it's so brilliant and

21:45

I feel like I haven't really seen

21:47

it before. I think collectively we sort

21:49

of, we were all like, yeah, swirl

21:51

bread, swirl bread's our thing that people

21:53

get excited about, but you only really,

21:55

you know, most often only see. a

21:57

cinnamon raisin. And I would like to

22:00

look back through the various books that

22:02

I've done over my career because I

22:04

feel like this is sort of a

22:06

conceit that I have teased out in

22:08

other books too where it's like you

22:10

have this sort of foundational recipe and

22:12

then you do some things with it

22:14

that make it different. And I think

22:16

that appeal, I mean it appeals very

22:18

much to me, but I also think

22:21

it can be kind of eye-opening for

22:23

cooks and bakers at home. And exciting

22:25

too. It'd be like, oh, all I

22:27

have to do is learn to make

22:29

this one thing and then I can

22:31

make all these other things. Like, oh,

22:33

I learned to make Patashoo and now

22:35

I can make Eclares and Perfiterals and,

22:37

you know, Guziers. Yeah. So I think

22:40

that's exciting to give people that sort

22:42

of like, you know, that foundational recipe.

22:44

So I think together we were like,

22:46

swirl breads or a thing that we

22:48

want to dive into, and then it

22:50

became an kept going, but I mean,

22:52

early on there was a, I think

22:54

there was a prune swirl bread with

22:56

like an Earl Gray strusel. There was

22:58

a peanut bar jelly one that we

23:01

messed around with for a while. There

23:03

was a coconut one that we messed

23:05

around with for a while. There was

23:07

a coconut one that we messed around

23:09

with for a while. And we just,

23:11

you know, for various reasons they got

23:13

abandoned the long way. Some of them

23:15

we couldn't just do a book of

23:17

swirl bread. like we had to, you

23:19

know, sort of pick our favorites among

23:22

the group. So this bread is studded

23:24

with raisins and then it showcases this

23:26

like gooey brown sugar swirl through its

23:28

center. Ultimate breakfast bread. I know it's

23:30

an enriched dough, just for people that

23:32

may not know what does it mean

23:34

when someone describes a dough as enriched.

23:36

So an enriched dough, you know, you

23:38

think of like those soft, fluffy, delicious,

23:40

you know, sort of doughs that you've

23:43

had in your life. fluffy and soft

23:45

and delicious like that because they have

23:47

some enrichment, which is just extra fat

23:49

added. So in this case, the fat

23:51

comes in the form of butter, which

23:53

gets added to the dough, and also

23:55

eggs. And you'll see that like that

23:57

same hollow might be enriched with butter

23:59

or oil and eggs, briosh, obviously lots

24:01

of butter. And it gives that sort

24:04

of like fluffy kind of pull apart

24:06

texture that you see with like the

24:08

best dinner rolls or the best breakfast

24:10

breads. You know, I'm glad we actually

24:12

are talking about this recipe because in

24:14

every recipe in the book, give options

24:16

for making it with sour dough and

24:18

making it with yeast. But with these

24:20

swirl breads, we did. So there's an

24:22

option to make it with sourdough culture

24:25

or an option to make it with

24:27

yeast. The bread needs a stand mixer

24:29

and you guys sort of, you know,

24:31

state that and point that out. Is

24:33

that because many of the breads you

24:35

can make without one and so you

24:37

want it to be clear that when

24:39

you make an enriched dough, it's a

24:41

stiffer dough and you really, anybody could

24:43

make it by hand, but you really

24:46

want a stand mixer with an enriched

24:48

dough? Yeah, I mean, if you go

24:50

to the gym enough, anything can be

24:52

done by hand. I said like briosh

24:54

and you know, like milk breads and

24:56

all these were made long before. the

24:58

advent of commercial mixers. So it is

25:00

possible. It just would be so annoying.

25:02

But there are lots of recipes in

25:04

the book that call for no mixer

25:07

at all, that are hand-mixed and just

25:09

folded. Unless we felt like, oh, you

25:11

really need a mixer, we tried to

25:13

give options for both doing it by

25:15

hand or a mixer. But with the

25:17

enriched doughs. I mean it would just

25:19

be so annoying. I also learned or

25:21

it was expressed in a way that

25:23

I had never read before but this

25:25

idea of you know an enriched dough

25:28

produces a really strong dough and you

25:30

need the strength so it holds its

25:32

shape you get a good rise and

25:34

the mixer gives you that. It's not

25:36

just that it would be hard on

25:38

your arm. It's also that that's actually

25:40

the best product. Exactly. I mean, and

25:42

I think this is, it's a number

25:44

of things, like your start, this recipe

25:46

has bread flour, so bread flour has,

25:49

you know, higher amount of protein, you

25:51

know, you get more gluten bonds to

25:53

form. I think of it, like the

25:55

rock hats, like linking arms, you know,

25:57

like you get a strong gluten formation,

25:59

which supports a good rise in the

26:01

bread, but you also have to develop

26:03

strength in the bread, but you also

26:05

have to develop strength in the dough.

26:07

you can develop strength through needing on

26:10

the bench by hand, or you can

26:12

develop strength through mechanical mixing. You know,

26:14

it's like a two-pronged attack. It's like

26:16

strong bread flour, a nice mix to

26:18

give you a nice strong dough, which

26:20

in turn in the oven will like

26:22

support a strong rise. And because this

26:24

bread has the raisins in it, you

26:26

want that dough to be nice and

26:29

strong so that it'll like it'll rise

26:31

to spend. Me and beautifully. So the

26:33

leavening for this dough, as you mentioned,

26:35

the dough can be made with a

26:37

sourdough culture or it can be instant

26:39

yeast. We're going to discuss the bread

26:41

as if we had a sourdough culture

26:43

and I think you guys like it.

26:45

at King Arthur, you like it for

26:47

its flavor and improved keeping qualities, does

26:50

that mean that a bread made with

26:52

sourdough culture lasts longer than a bread

26:54

made with, I had no idea. Sorry

26:56

Jessica was nodding, so I was, but

26:58

yes, she says yes, I forget that

27:00

people can't see us. I didn't know

27:02

that. Yeah. Also, we find that it

27:04

improves browning. and just I mean really

27:06

like flavor you know you get this

27:08

flavor development and I think in this

27:11

book we sort of lay out the

27:13

strategy it's not a new strategy we

27:15

are not the only people to do

27:17

this in the history of breadmaking or

27:19

in the history of bread book writing

27:21

but this idea of building to bake

27:23

and I feel like this is a

27:25

really important idea and so I just

27:27

want to take a minute to talk

27:29

about it like you know you'll see

27:32

in other recipes that they'll say you

27:34

know ripe. fed sourdough culture. And there's

27:36

a lot of talk about like, oh,

27:38

I've got to catch my sourdough culture

27:40

at the, you know, at the moment

27:42

that it's at peak, right? And I

27:44

think people get really bogged down by

27:46

like, okay, it's going to peak in

27:48

eight hours and then I have to

27:50

bake right when it's going to bake

27:53

right? Okay, it's going to peak in

27:55

eight hours and then I have to

27:57

bake right when it's a small amount

27:59

of culture. and you mix that with

28:01

a portion. of the flour and the

28:03

water and the recipe and you let

28:05

that sit. It's called a preferment. That

28:07

is essentially acting as another feed for

28:09

your culture, helping to sort of rev

28:11

it up. I learned this way and

28:14

this is how I make sourdough, I

28:16

learned this from tartan. You always make

28:18

the pre-ferment. I always want to call

28:20

it preferment. Pre-ferment. But don't you still

28:22

need to catch that tablespoon or that

28:24

two tablespoons when it's at the right

28:26

spot when you make the pre-ferment? You

28:28

have a little bit more wiggle room,

28:30

which is the great part. So, I

28:32

mean, would I say, like, take your

28:35

neglected culture out of the refrigerator and

28:37

like a... like an athlete, right? If

28:39

you lay on the couch for a

28:41

week and then you're like, let's go

28:43

like, you know, run a raid, you're

28:45

like, I'd really rather not. But if

28:47

you are like, hey, let's just like,

28:49

we'll go out for a mile every

28:51

day and come back and, you know,

28:53

and then on Sunday, you're like, let's

28:56

run five miles. You're like, I can

28:58

do that. So can you take like

29:00

neglected. like hooch covered starter from the

29:02

back of your fridge and assume it's

29:04

gonna make your bread rise like well

29:06

no you know you got to give

29:08

it a little TLC but I don't

29:10

think you know with this building to

29:12

bake like if you're catching it at

29:14

the peak of ripeness or after it

29:17

started to fall a little bit like

29:19

you just have a little bit of

29:21

a broader window there which I think

29:23

is nice yeah yeah so we're gonna

29:25

talk about the bread using the preferment

29:27

but if you don't have a sourdose

29:29

starter starterer going Do not worry about

29:31

it because their directions in the recipe.

29:33

You'll add a little extra flour, you'll

29:35

add some water, and you'll add a

29:38

little extra instant yeast. So you can

29:40

go in either direction. So on day

29:42

one, first things first, we're going to

29:44

soak some raisins in some cold water

29:46

overnight in a small bowl, or the

29:48

night before you want to bake. So

29:50

on day one, first things first, we're

29:52

going to soak some raisins in some

29:54

cold and mushy. dry little nuggets in

29:56

there, and also so they're not going

29:59

to take moisture out of your dough.

30:01

Smart, smart, smart, smart. They're pre-hydrated. They're

30:03

not like going in their thirsty thinking

30:05

like, oh, I'd like drink some of

30:07

this dough water. We're going to cover

30:09

the raisins. Does it matter? Like a

30:11

dish towel? Should I picture an air-type

30:13

cover? I mean a plate, a little,

30:15

yeah. You know, and we're going to

30:18

hydrate them at room temp for about

30:20

12 to 16 hours. And then in

30:22

another small bowl, still on day one,

30:24

we're going to combine our sourd. which

30:26

we've discussed is basically a little bit

30:28

of your starter that you have on

30:30

your counter that you've been building with

30:32

water and flour for however many days

30:34

or weeks or years at this point.

30:36

We can add some bread flour, so

30:39

we have a little bit of sourdough

30:41

culture, a little bit of bread flour,

30:43

and I wondered about this, I know

30:45

the bread itself has bread flour. Why

30:47

do we need the bread flour in

30:49

our pre-ferment? Could we use all-purpose? I

30:51

mean, in theory, you could use all-purpose,

30:53

but this pre-ferment is going to become

30:55

part of your final dough, so we're

30:57

looking for strength. like an all-purpose flour.

31:00

And also it's nice to have a

31:02

recipe that calls for one kind of

31:04

flour. Yes. Would your bread fail with

31:06

a preferment maidwins? A quarter cup of

31:08

all-purpose flour? I don't think so. But

31:10

you know, I feel like we know

31:12

with confidence that a stronger dough is

31:14

going to be best case scenario here.

31:16

So I say stick with the bread

31:18

flour. And we're going to add some

31:21

cool water. Why does it have to

31:23

be cool? Could it be room? Yeah,

31:25

you don't want it to get too

31:27

speedy too fast because it's going to

31:29

sit overnight. So if you really revved

31:31

it up with warm water, it would

31:33

move faster, right? Yeah, we're going to

31:35

cover that again. Sounds like not a

31:37

big deal. Plastic wrap, plate, whatever you

31:39

want, and let that stand at room

31:42

temp overnight for about 12 to 16

31:44

hours. So you could do all of

31:46

that maybe before I'm just trying to

31:48

think timing wise, maybe at the end

31:50

of the day. nice phrase to think

31:52

about preferment, which I think helps people

31:54

sort of understand the purpose. He says

31:56

it's like a bullion cube of flavor

31:58

for your bread. So just that little

32:00

amount of prefermented flour and water is

32:03

just going to give like a little

32:05

like flavor spike, which is a nice

32:07

way to think about it. Yep, little

32:09

flavor bomb. On day two, we're going

32:11

to make our dough, so in our

32:13

stand mixer bowl, we're going to combine

32:15

the preferment. So basically preferment is what

32:17

we call the culture, after we've taken

32:19

it. added a little bit of flour

32:21

and water to it. I love that

32:24

preferment. You could do your preferment in

32:26

your mixer bowl. You wanted to save

32:28

a bowl? I always want to save

32:30

a bowl. I always want to save

32:32

a bowl. Yes, I'm a big bowl

32:34

saver. That's a great idea. So do

32:36

that preferment, your stem mixer bowl, or

32:38

if you didn't, you're going to put

32:40

your preferment into your mixer bowl, you're

32:42

going to bread flour, a little bit

32:45

of granulated sugar, sugar, sugar, sugar, sugar,

32:47

sugar, sugar, Yeah, all of the above.

32:49

Yeah, exactly. And then we're going to

32:51

add some fine salt. Why not kosher?

32:53

I feel like we see kosher so

32:55

much. This is the nice thing again

32:57

of baking by weight. If you're baking

32:59

by weight, use whatever salt you want

33:01

to use. It doesn't matter. You know,

33:03

as long as you're expecting to the

33:06

gram weight in the recipe, like you

33:08

could use kosher salt. I don't use

33:10

iodized salt. I don't recommend iodized salt,

33:12

I don't recommend iodized salt in bread,

33:14

but you could use fine sea salt.

33:16

We're going to add some instant yeast,

33:18

which is my personal favorite, which is

33:20

my personal favorite. Yeah, we we have

33:22

transitioned to exclusively using instant yeast in

33:24

the King Arthur recipes You know because

33:27

it can be added directly without you

33:29

know looming it or so it just

33:31

again like streamlines a little bit Yep,

33:33

we're adding an egg and I wondered

33:35

should the egg and I wondered should

33:37

the egg and I wondered should the

33:39

egg and I wondered should the egg

33:41

be room temperature or is it not

33:43

super important at this stage in the

33:45

game? Not super important because this is

33:48

going to mix for so long everything's

33:50

going to warm low scraping the mixer

33:52

bowl as needed. My favorite, King Arthur

33:54

tool, and tool generally is the plastic

33:56

flexible bench scraper. Love that thing. Love

33:58

that thing. I love that. It's a

34:00

good, yeah. So much. It's stopping supper,

34:02

you know? Yes, 100 percent. Yeah, 100

34:04

percent. 100 percent. So we're going to

34:07

use our flexible bench scraper to scrape

34:09

the bowl as needed and we'll mix.

34:11

for about two to three minutes until

34:13

we have a firm yet tacky dough.

34:15

Then we're going to increase the speed

34:17

to medium. And I wondered about this.

34:19

I was interviewing someone about a gluten-free

34:21

bread recipe and she was saying that

34:23

she never turns her mixer above medium

34:25

when she's making dough in a stand

34:28

mixer and I said, oh, is that

34:30

like a gluten-free bread thing? And she

34:32

said no. That's how I always make

34:34

bread. I tend to put it to

34:36

a little higher than that. Do you

34:38

guys have a position on speed? And

34:40

if you don't, that's okay, but I

34:42

just wondered, I tend to go medium

34:44

high, but then I suddenly thought, am

34:46

I making bread wrong? No, I don't

34:49

think you're making bread wrong. I wonder

34:51

too, like, it feels a little nebulous

34:53

sometimes on, like, in a kitchen, and

34:55

like, what is true media, you know?

34:57

That's interesting though, she said she only

34:59

mixed on medium. There are definitely indications

35:01

in this book where we mix, I

35:03

think on medium high, I feel like

35:05

for the briosh, I'm remembering. Probably we

35:07

mixed that a little bit more vigorously.

35:10

Okay. I was also going to say

35:12

we talk about tacky versus sticky a

35:14

lot and tacky to us, we think

35:16

about being like the back of a

35:18

post. Oh nice. Yeah. Like, you know,

35:20

it's sticky hands. Yeah. Yeah. Or tape.

35:22

So we're going to continue mixing on

35:24

medium until the dose smooth and elastic,

35:26

an additional three to five minutes. And

35:28

then with the mixer still on medium,

35:31

we're going to add some room temp,

35:33

unsaulted cubed butter. We're going to do

35:35

it one piece at a time. Mixing

35:37

until the first piece is fully incorporated

35:39

before adding the next. Continue mixing until

35:41

the dough pulls away from the sides

35:43

of the bowl and is soft smooth

35:45

and elastic? Three to five minutes. And

35:47

again, we're scraping periodically with our dose

35:49

scraper. don't really need to. Yeah, I

35:52

don't even think you need to. at

35:54

that point because really the scraping is

35:56

just to make sure there's no dry

35:58

bits and by the time you're mixing

36:00

there it should all the ingredients should

36:02

be incorporated so you're just building strength.

36:04

So now we're going to drain our

36:06

raisins and with our mixer stopped add

36:08

the raisins then we'll mix until evenly

36:10

distributed one to two minutes more we're

36:13

going to cover our stand mixture bowl

36:15

don't even take it out at this

36:17

point. Is that correct? And just let

36:19

it rise at room temp until doubled

36:21

in size about one to one and

36:23

a half hours. Again, I don't know

36:25

why I'm so obsessed with covers, but

36:27

are we covering it with anything? Cover

36:29

it with a plate? Cover it or

36:31

do you, we're trying to seal in?

36:34

Yeah, you want to cover it, you're

36:36

trying to cover it, you're trying to

36:38

seal in? Yeah, you want to cover

36:40

it, you're, you're trying to cover it,

36:42

you're, you're trying to, you're tight. dough

36:44

with a cloth you may have seen

36:46

in the past like sometimes you pull

36:48

it out and then it's got like

36:50

a skin on it which is not

36:52

ideal because it's a drier exterior and

36:55

so you're gonna have some dry bits

36:57

in your dough that then when you

36:59

go to like mix it all together

37:01

or shape it are gonna be obvious

37:03

right like there'll be obvious I think

37:05

it can also preclude your rise because

37:07

once it has that dry kind of

37:09

surface the yeast is trying to bang

37:11

through it and it's fine you can

37:13

get As long as it's a reasonably

37:16

tight-fitting plate or a beeswax wrap, like

37:18

any of that is fine. Meanwhile, we're

37:20

going to make our filling. So in

37:22

a small bowl, we'll combine some light

37:24

brown sugar, some red flour, and some

37:26

cinnamon. Same question as before. Could we

37:28

put AP in? I mean, I'm not

37:30

saying people would, but I just like

37:32

to understand choices. Yes, in this case,

37:35

you could. You do need a little

37:37

bit of flour, and we learned in

37:39

extensive, extensive, extensive testing. You know, like

37:41

you swirl it up, you've done your

37:43

best, it looks good going in, you

37:45

take it out of the oven, it

37:47

looks beautiful, you cut into it, and

37:49

it's like your spiral is not holding

37:51

together. And so we did everything we

37:53

could. to solve for that. Some of

37:56

that is in the shaping, which we

37:58

will talk about later, but a little

38:00

bit of flour there sort of axes

38:02

glue for the other filling ingredients and

38:04

sort of helps glue those spirals together.

38:06

So it has a reason that it's

38:08

in there, not just for extra flour.

38:10

So we're going to grease an eight

38:12

and a half by four and a

38:14

half inch loaf sandwich. in case anyone

38:17

wants to know that is my ideal

38:19

loaf pan size. I do not like

38:21

the nine-by-fives. I just love how like

38:23

sexy and slim, the eight and a

38:25

half, the King Arthur Prisley. Great sides.

38:27

I love those straight sides and those

38:29

strong corners. I know we're all obsessed

38:31

with straight sides. It's like a thing

38:33

and we need t-shirts and we're going

38:35

to spray with the cooking spray which

38:38

I loved because... being trained in a

38:40

bakery. That's what I use exclusively to

38:42

grease. Was that a choice? Could you

38:44

use butter? Could you use oil? Is

38:46

it what you guys do? You definitely

38:48

could. I just think it's the cooking

38:50

spray. I know there's, you know, you

38:52

might have some, and if you have

38:54

some reservations about aerosol spray, you could

38:56

grease otherwise, but it's very convenient. You

38:59

know, and it doesn't burn the same

39:01

way that, you know, butter would burn

39:03

in a pan. So that's our default

39:05

recommendation. And yeah, that eight and a

39:07

half by four and a half straight-sided

39:09

pan, I feel like it sets you

39:11

up to have a beautiful looking. It's

39:13

the best. It's the best. It's the

39:15

best. So now we're going to lightly

39:17

flower our work surface. You have us

39:20

using bread flour. Sorry I keep going

39:22

back to this. Could we do it

39:24

with all-purpose? Why do we do it?

39:26

Could we do it with all-purpose flour?

39:28

Why? I'm just always curious when I'm

39:30

making something. And it has a particular

39:32

flour. or should I stick? So that's

39:34

why I keep asking you. Yeah, for

39:36

shaping it would be totally fine. I

39:38

think, you know, when we're writing the

39:41

recipe, it's like, if you have a

39:43

bread recipe that is, I think most

39:45

people have all-purpose flour plus other flowers,

39:47

but we were like, well, what if

39:49

they don't, what if they don't, what

39:51

if they've just bought bread flour to

39:53

make this recipe, then we're good. to

39:55

use our plastic bowl scraper to ease

39:57

the dough out of the bowl under

39:59

the work surface. We're going to gently

40:02

deflate the dough. What does that mean?

40:04

Do you mean like punch it? Do

40:06

you mean like just press it lightly?

40:08

You know, sometimes I see on the

40:10

internet now people are like so aggressive

40:12

with their like they've gotten their dough

40:14

like nicely risen. It's like it's bubbly,

40:16

it's happy. And then they come in

40:18

with their fists and are just whacking

40:20

it right in the right in the

40:23

middle. I think the point is here,

40:25

you're just trying to get the big

40:27

bubbles. Like you spent all this energy

40:29

and time to get a rise in

40:31

your dough, so you don't want it

40:33

to completely knock it out, like you

40:35

want it to have some air in

40:37

there. So you're just looking to kind

40:39

of flatten it out, address any big

40:41

bubbles, because those will become bigger bubbles

40:44

as it proves, you know, and just

40:46

give yourself like a nice level surface

40:48

to work out, but you don't have

40:50

to like punish the poor dough. So

40:52

we'll gently deflate our dough, then we're

40:54

going to roll it into a 15

40:56

by 8 inch rectangle with our the

40:58

shortest side facing us. Do you have

41:00

a favorite rolling pin? Do you like

41:02

one of tapered edges? Do you like

41:05

one with handles? For this one, I

41:07

don't have the ball bearing type. I

41:09

only have a straight pin and then

41:11

I have one with tapered ends. And

41:13

for this, I don't think it really

41:15

matters because my tapered pin is long

41:17

enough that I could get, you know,

41:19

you know, it's longer than 15. But

41:21

you know, the ball bearing ones will

41:24

work fine. And this isn't such a

41:26

big piece of dough that you have

41:28

to worry about overlapping your rolling pin.

41:30

I will say, though, there was probably

41:32

a time in the past where I'd

41:34

be like, well, it's close to nothing.

41:36

It's probably 15 by 8, and I

41:38

wouldn't actually measure it. But now, you

41:40

know, like, I have a ruler in

41:42

the kitchen and I use the ruler.

41:45

It's important to set yourself up for

41:47

success by like starting with the right

41:49

dimensions. Yes, actually measure that it's 15

41:51

by 8. Now we're going to brush

41:53

a light, even coat of egg wash,

41:55

which I love is made from egg

41:57

and salt, which is the same way

41:59

I make my egg wash, over the

42:01

dough, and we're doing this. so that

42:03

the filling will stick to the dough.

42:06

It's like glue. Exactly. Just a little

42:08

glue. Yeah. And we're gonna sprinkle the

42:10

filling evenly over the dough, leaving about

42:12

a one inch wide bare strip on

42:14

the short side of the dough that's

42:16

farthest away from us. I thought this

42:18

was interesting because I've been comparing this

42:20

base recipe to all the other variations.

42:22

this is one of the recipes where

42:24

we actually don't even press in the

42:27

filling. Some of them we actually have

42:29

to press to adhere like the French

42:31

onion. Here we don't have to, we're

42:33

kind of sprinkling it all over the

42:35

egg, wash, and it sticks. There's not

42:37

a lot of the volume to it,

42:39

unlike some of the other ones, so

42:41

yeah, it'll just stick right on. Now

42:43

we're going to fold the outer half

42:45

inch of each long edge to sort

42:48

of enclose the filling. those little edges

42:50

that we folded over. And then starting

42:52

with the short side that's closest to

42:54

us, we're going to roll into a

42:56

log, is the goal very tight? I'm

42:58

glad you asked, because no, I would

43:00

have thought before we did one million

43:02

test these breads, like if you want

43:04

your swirl bread to stick together, like

43:06

roll tighter, right? And so that was

43:09

what I had always done, and I

43:11

had always had gapby swirl breads. So

43:13

you actually don't need to roll it.

43:15

rises, like there's a little bit of

43:17

sort of space between the swirls, so

43:19

that it has a place to go,

43:21

right? Like, because it's going to go

43:23

somewhere, and if you've really scented it

43:25

up tight, like it will force the

43:27

swirl apart. So just roll it, don't

43:30

like, give it the business. Just sort

43:32

of like, roll it away from you

43:34

gently. Now we're going to pinch the

43:36

center seam closed, and then we're going

43:38

to pinch each leakage. Exactly, and sometimes

43:40

I do sort of like a karate

43:42

chop on the ends, you know, like

43:44

I just put the sides of my

43:46

hands, I'm showing you and nobody can

43:48

see this, but I put the heads

43:51

of my hands like down on the

43:53

ends of the dough, just kind of

43:55

flatten them, and then I just tuck

43:57

them under, so you don't have to

43:59

go. crazy pinching it. It's just trying

44:01

to get like a nice tight little

44:03

parcel. We're going to place the log

44:05

seam side down in our prepared pan

44:07

and then we're going to cover again.

44:09

This time when we're covering we don't

44:12

want anything flat on top of our

44:14

pan because we want a one-inch rise

44:16

above the pan. So are you kind

44:18

of draping? Shower caps. The rescue. I mean,

44:20

most hotels still give them out and I

44:22

don't, like I've never worn a shower camp

44:24

in my entire life, but I do take

44:26

them because they're great. You can buy, you

44:29

know, bowl covers too that are reusable, but

44:31

for a free option, shower caps are great.

44:33

They're perfect because they are tight, you

44:35

know, they're a tight elastic seal, but they

44:37

allow room for the dodo expand, and

44:39

if you have to cover with platter grab.

44:41

That's okay too, but I would spray one

44:43

side of the plastic wrap with cooking

44:46

spray and put the sprayed side

44:48

against your dough because we've all had

44:50

it happen, you know, where your dough

44:53

rises and then it bonds to the

44:55

plastic wrap. Yeah, I've had it happen

44:57

in the bowl when you're making sour

44:59

dough. and then you pop it out and there's

45:01

like some piece that sticks to the fabric

45:03

in the that makes me and deflate the whole

45:06

thing and yeah I can't even go there make

45:08

me too sad but anyway okay we're covering with

45:10

our shower cap that we got it at a

45:12

hotel we're gonna let the low fries at room

45:14

temp until it crowns about an inch over the

45:16

room in the pan about an hour and a

45:18

half towards the end of the rising time we're

45:21

gonna preheat our oven to preheat our oven to

45:23

350 We'll lightly brush the top of the

45:25

loaf with that reserved egg wash and

45:27

sprinkle with turbanado sugar, which you're giving

45:29

us a choice, but I'm just telling

45:31

everyone please sprinkle, because that just sounds

45:33

so delicious and young. Yeah. And then

45:35

we'll bake the bread until the crust

45:37

is golden brown. The internal temp is

45:39

about 190. It's going to be about 40 minutes.

45:41

Do you guys believe that the best way to

45:44

test your bread is temp? Is that ideal? I

45:46

think it is one tool in the

45:48

toolbox. I think that certainly no professional

45:50

baker who's baking hundreds of loaves of

45:52

bread is temping every single one to see

45:55

if it's done. It acts as sort of

45:57

like a secondary confirmation of what

45:59

your eyes tell you. Right? I mean, I think

46:01

if you're baking, and this is important, like

46:03

baking to full color is maybe our

46:05

rallying cry for this book, like actually

46:08

baked till something is GPD, like golden

46:10

brown, delicious, really get some color on

46:12

it, then, you know, you don't really

46:14

have to worry about the inside being

46:17

done. But I think there is

46:19

sometimes a tendency, especially in your baker's

46:21

to do like a pale bake, you know, light bake,

46:23

which A is not as flavorful. the most

46:25

delicious color, but also, yeah, then you might

46:28

run the risk of not having it baked

46:30

all the way through, so you could have

46:32

the temperature checked. That also is like a

46:34

pet peeve of mine with pie, you know,

46:36

because people wanted to look a certain way,

46:39

and so they pull it when it's golden

46:41

brown. I'm like, no pie is ever done

46:43

at golden brown. I mean, honestly, that's the

46:45

only thing people ever learn from this

46:47

podcast. Jesse, we will have succeeded. Exactly.

46:50

Beautiful color. Yes. Really go for it.

46:52

Yes. I've said this before, so listeners,

46:54

if you've heard this, I apologize, but

46:56

I once heard Carla Hall say exactly

46:59

what you just said is, this was

47:01

at a pie contest. There is flavor

47:03

in the brown. That is where your flavor

47:05

is. So we're going to remove the loaf

47:08

from the oven, turn it out of the pan

47:10

right from the oven, turn, turn it. preserves

47:12

the crunchiness and because if you keep

47:14

it in the pan, it's like a

47:17

little steam oven and it can get

47:19

soggy. And then we'll let cool completely

47:21

before slicing. There's a worse art. Is

47:23

the waiting? The cools, yeah. So there

47:25

are a number of other variations. I

47:28

just wanted to go through them quickly

47:30

so people get a sense. There's a

47:32

duca filling which is like an Egyptian

47:34

condiment of crushed nuts and spices spices

47:36

and you have us toast fennel seeds

47:39

and coriander cuminant or fragrantal fragrant. And

47:41

I love this, one to two shades darker

47:43

than when you started, and I feel like

47:45

that's a great visual cue to this point

47:47

about color. Then we're gonna add some toasted

47:49

hazelnuts, pistachios, and sesame seeds, pulse it all

47:52

together. I love this too. We're adding a

47:54

teeny bit of egg wash to this nut

47:56

mixture, you know, before we might have added

47:58

a little flour to help. with our cinnamon

48:00

raisin filling. Now we're adding a little

48:03

egg wash so it helps keep our

48:05

spiral together and almost to the consistency

48:07

of like a wet sand. Exactly, yeah,

48:09

again it's sort of like the gluing

48:11

it together. Yeah, and this is one

48:13

where we're gonna once we've brushed our

48:15

dough with the egg wash we're gonna...

48:17

press down to adhere the filling. I

48:20

went through every single recipe just to

48:22

confirm that there are no modifications to

48:24

the dough. And there really aren't. This

48:26

dough works. The only modification I saw,

48:28

even with fillings, the Mexican chocolate filling,

48:30

for instance, and the cinnamon chocolate filling,

48:32

for instance, and the cinnamon raisin, and

48:35

maybe the lemon as well, you don't

48:37

have to press to adhere the filling.

48:39

But other than that, all of the

48:41

directions are the same with our recipe.

48:43

big Dutch process obsessive. Is it Dutch

48:45

process cocoa powder? Yeah, Dutch process cocoa

48:47

powder. Yeah, the color, it's not only

48:49

flavor, but the color is so beautiful.

48:52

Yeah, I want that. dark. I imagine

48:54

it looks beautiful when you see that.

48:56

Yeah, you get that dark spiral and

48:58

it has a little bit of, you

49:00

know, cinnamon and spice in it. Yeah,

49:02

Chipotle powder, cinnamon salt. So yummy. Again,

49:04

not adhering. And then this one is

49:07

so special, the French onion filling with

49:09

caramelized onions and cheese and fragrant time.

49:11

I thought this was interesting to avoid

49:13

any gaps in this swirl with the

49:15

French onion. You need to caramelize your

49:17

onions deeply and you need to grate

49:19

your cheese finally. This is another one.

49:21

that we really tested a lot because

49:24

we were having gapping problems with this.

49:26

And so we give a measurement for

49:28

how much onion you should have after.

49:30

They actually get roasted in the oven.

49:32

It's hands off, but you really need

49:34

to cook them for a long time.

49:36

And I can't remember off the top

49:39

of my head how much the final

49:41

measurement of. Oh, it's only 35 grams.

49:43

It's a quarter cup at the end.

49:45

Yeah. So you really are cooking it

49:47

down. And we actually added that. measurement

49:49

sort of later in the development game

49:51

because we had folks saying like yeah

49:53

I've cooked the onions long enough but

49:56

they would end up with like a

49:58

cup of onions or something or you

50:00

know like they just weren't taking them

50:02

far enough and then yes like the

50:04

moisture from the onions would cause gapping.

50:06

That bread is so good I can't

50:08

wait to make like this winter I'm

50:11

gonna make French onion soup and then

50:13

I'm gonna make the French onion red

50:15

you know to use as the raft

50:17

on it like a double French onion.

50:19

So good. I also wonder if you

50:21

could almost it's a little more labor

50:23

intensive but almost well maybe it wouldn't

50:25

make like a pull apart bread with

50:28

it. rather than roll the bread up

50:30

once you put down the French onion,

50:32

cut it into squares and then put

50:34

it, I think that could be, just

50:36

that would say. Yeah, I want to

50:38

do like a monkey bread sort of

50:40

situation with it. Yeah, yeah. So. we'll

50:42

mix together that finely grater gruerite with

50:45

those onions and this is one where

50:47

we're going to press to adhere since

50:49

it's a thicker filling and then the

50:51

last is the lemon swirl bread which

50:53

I love this this is I think

50:55

it's from your headnote it's a zippy

50:57

bread and it's great for breakfast I

51:00

love zippy it's a gooey swirl of

51:02

zest and sugar and I love this

51:04

too it tastes like curd despite the

51:06

fact it's only like a tablespoon of

51:08

zest which is pure baking magic it's

51:10

I don't know how Mel did it,

51:12

but it's like it gets gooey in

51:14

this really wonderful way. You know, the

51:17

sugar in the lemon zest, it gives

51:19

you the, and it has a little

51:21

bit of flour in that mixture. It

51:23

just like gives the impression of lemon

51:25

curd. That's a special bread. I like

51:27

that one a lot. Well, thank you

51:29

so much for chatting with me today,

51:32

Jessica. And I just want to say

51:34

that you are my cherry pie. Oh,

51:36

geez. Thanks so much for having us.

51:38

Don't forget to follow She's My Cherry

51:40

Pie on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever

51:42

you listen and tell your pals about

51:44

us. You can find today's recipe at

51:46

cherrybomb.com. She's My Cherry Pie is a

51:49

production of the Cherry Bomb Podcast Network.

51:51

Thank you to Good Studio in Brooklyn.

51:53

Our producers are Kerry Diamond, Catherine Baker,

51:55

and Jenna Sadoo. Thank you so

51:57

much for listening to

51:59

to Cherry My Cherry and

52:01

happy baking! Baking.