0:00

Alberta's gaming industry is leveling up

0:02

and grinding XP for a legendary quest

0:05

to take on another boss , the dreaded

0:07

Dr Inconsisto . Backed

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by Alberta Innovates , a groundbreaking program

0:12

is building co-op alliances , powering

0:14

up local talent and setting Alberta on

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a speed run to double its gaming sector by 2026

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. Learn how we're doing it with style

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a bit of bear wrestling and plenty of know-how . Sit back and settle

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in . Welcome to Shift . Learn how we're doing it with style a bit of bear wrestling and

0:25

plenty of know-how . Sit back and settle in .

0:38

Welcome to Shift

0:40

.

0:48

I come from an era of video game

0:50

arcades , where you pump in quarter

0:52

after quarter playing things like Centipede

0:55

, Pac-Man , Asteroids and Q-Bert . But

0:58

let me tell you , today we're talking

1:00

about Alberta's interactive digital

1:02

industry because things have

1:04

changed and we're diving specifically

1:07

into how it pertains to gaming

1:09

. So who I've got today

1:11

is Shred Capital's Matt Toner

1:14

, Executive Director and Program Lead

1:16

of Scaffold , based in Calgary , my

1:19

colleague Adam Brown , Manager Opportunity

1:21

Development at Alberta Innovates , based in Edmonton

1:24

, and Michael Liebe , CEO

1:26

and founder of Booster Space . Michael

1:28

also works with Kickstarter and he's

1:30

based in Berlin . Gentlemen , good

1:33

morning and good evening to all of you . Hello

1:35

, hello , guten Abend , Hello , welcome

1:38

. It's nice to see you all . So

1:40

let's dive in first , and I'm going to get Adam

1:42

to set a little bit of context . So , Adam

1:45

, can you provide us a brief overview of how

1:47

Alberta Innovates is supporting

1:49

the gaming sector , focusing on the

1:51

funding of Shred Capital and the creation

1:53

of Scaffold through the Ecosystem

1:56

Development Partnership Program ?

1:58

Thanks . I guess I'll

2:00

start by saying that Alberta

2:03

Innovates is focused on growing

2:05

Alberta's tech sector primarily

2:08

, and supporting other key sectors

2:10

like clean

2:12

resources and health , and

2:14

ag for the province . We're

2:30

focused on the nurturing of new technologies that can transform

2:33

or create new industries to help that overall

2:35

goal of growing Alberta's economy . And so the gaming industry is a

2:37

beautiful fusion of tech and creativity and it really epitomizes

2:39

all of the

2:41

amazing opportunities of

2:43

the time that we're living in

2:45

. And the gaming industry

2:47

in Canada is forecast to be worth

2:50

$7 billion by

2:52

2027 . And

2:54

currently about one in seven Canadian

2:58

gaming companies are here in Alberta . So

3:04

we'd like to capture more of that potential and we'd like to grow that number

3:06

of gaming companies in

3:09

Alberta . Alberta

3:13

has a strong history of gaming

3:15

and development in

3:17

the province . Of course many know that BioWare

3:20

was founded here in the 90s and

3:22

we have many great studios , large

3:25

and small , like Inflection Beams

3:27

and Peam Dog here , and

3:30

terrific talent working at those studios

3:32

, and so we've

3:34

levered the ecosystem

3:37

development program to

3:39

do some work in this area .

3:41

Okay . So first off , those are

3:43

significant numbers when you talk about , did

3:46

you say one in seven companies are

3:48

based in Alberta ? Yeah , by some estimates

3:51

as best as we can figure . Okay

3:54

, and $30 billion

3:56

in the next couple of years $7

4:00

billion by 2027 .

4:01

$7 billion .

4:02

See , I got all excited . I went right to five

4:04

times that .

4:05

Yeah , it's growing .

4:07

Right . So bringing in Matt

4:09

with Shred Capital and having them start

4:11

the Scaffold program , I

4:13

think it's going to help significantly with that . But

4:15

, matt , I'm not going to tell the story

4:17

. So why don't you tell us a little bit about

4:20

the current gaming landscape in

4:22

Alberta and how it compares to some

4:24

larger jurisdictions in Canada and

4:26

we'll also bring Michael into that and what it

4:28

looks like globally ?

4:29

Yeah , sure , I mean I'm lucky

4:31

in my career . I've done all things digital

4:34

, I think , over the course of the last 25 years

4:36

. I'm kind of dating myself . I remember

4:38

the arcade days of

4:40

yesteryear all too well . A lot

4:42

of quarters went down the tube back then . I

4:46

was really drawn to the game industry in vancouver when

4:49

it began really expanding

4:52

about 20 years ago into other disciplines

4:55

where I was bringing in creators , composers

4:58

, writers . The form was really

5:00

maturing . It wasn't just kind of the 16-bit

5:02

splendor that we'd been accustomed to . It really

5:04

was seen as Hollywood 2.0 . So

5:07

I've worked in New York and Silicon

5:09

Valley and Vancouver , Toronto

5:11

and now here , and

5:13

it's really interesting what Adam said

5:16

, and he and I discussed this before we

5:18

came in . I mean , we're investors , we

5:20

want to build investable companies , and

5:23

in Alberta you had these big tent pools

5:25

like your Biowares and your Beamdogs and whatnot

5:27

, and they're like 100 feet of nothing

5:29

. And then this very dynamic

5:32

indie scene , you know the indies being

5:34

kind of smaller , you know garage

5:36

band , bootstrapping companies that are launching

5:38

these really interesting titles . And that's where

5:40

, when Adam and I spoke , we said listen , we can help

5:43

here , Because as an investor

5:45

, we approach these problems with the investor's mindset

5:48

and so we're looking at how do we train

5:50

these companies to think a little bit bigger in

5:52

terms of their fundraising

5:55

, their deal-making , their investor relations

5:57

. How do they feel comfortable

5:59

to position themselves on the global stage

6:01

? Position

6:04

themselves on the global stage . If I could , I think the one big breakthrough

6:06

scene and it's only been about a year has

6:08

been the confidence of the companies we're working

6:10

in . We're putting them in meetings

6:12

with big Hollywood companies . We're putting them in

6:14

front of investors hundreds of investors to

6:17

pitch their games . The transformation

6:19

there is remarkable

6:21

. Many of them have said I never thought

6:24

I was ready to do

6:26

this and now they're doing it

6:28

as a matter of course . Really , yeah .

6:32

What's the magic sauce there ? How are we taking

6:34

these , or , pardon me , how are you taking these

6:36

companies that , as you said , I really

6:38

like how you described that . We've got the big companies and then

6:40

there's like 100 feet of empty

6:43

space , and then there's like a hundred feet of empty space

6:45

and then there's the you know , the indie developers .

6:46

So you're taking those indie developers , drizzling

6:50

some magic sauce on them and well

6:52

, I think the breakthrough john in most

6:55

people's mentality and we're just seeing this now

6:57

. The first few months , you know it

6:59

was a little bit of tough going to change people's perceptions

7:01

of things . But one thing we've done really

7:03

well with the Scaffold program it's

7:05

kind of like a venture studio model is we've

7:08

brought in people like Michael that are international

7:11

experts top of their

7:13

game People from

7:15

Kickstarter in Europe in Michael's case , people

7:18

at Meta and Microsoft and

7:20

right down to very successful micro-indies

7:22

in the United Kingdom and

7:25

we infuse their perspective

7:28

and their knowledge and their expertise into

7:30

this Alberta fabric and it's

7:32

like planting I don't want to compare Michael to fertilizer

7:35

, but it's enriching the

7:37

soil , the crop gets stronger . And

7:39

this really came to a head with Game

7:42

Invest West last month , which was the

7:44

first investor-focused

7:46

summit of its kind in Western Canada . That

7:48

looked strictly at games and

7:51

the Alberta folks and Michael can speak

7:53

to this better than I . They really showed

7:55

well against that international

7:57

delegation and that investor delegation we assembled

7:59

. It wasn't amateur hour , it was primetime

8:02

well

8:04

, that's fantastic .

8:05

So now this , this uh event that was

8:07

last month . You say it was in , that's correct part

8:09

of the advanced venture forum you know , okay

8:13

, let's , michael , let's go right over to you

8:15

then , because I , I I'm really

8:17

curious what your impressions

8:20

, uh , were of

8:22

of those alberta gamers . And you know

8:24

as uh , as matt saying it wasn't

8:26

amateur hour , these guys came in and they

8:28

, they were rocking it . So what

8:30

, tell me what your perspective was like

8:32

when you started interacting with them ?

8:34

so , um , yeah

8:38

, let me just say at the beginning , I've seen a lot . As

8:40

matt also mentioned , I also organized

8:43

events myself and also in

8:45

berlin area , in germ

8:47

in Germany , supported in a similar

8:49

program , actually by networking and bringing

8:51

together different companies , matching them

8:54

with investors and

8:56

funding bodies . So

8:59

then when

9:02

I was first introduced to the studios , that was

9:04

actually online through some workshops

9:07

and then later on

9:09

site in Banff , and

9:11

there is a

9:14

certain eagerness

9:16

I would say that you can

9:18

feel in the companies . They really want to

9:21

deliver , they want to

9:23

play with the big

9:25

guys , they want to succeed

9:27

, not just try out and just

9:29

do projects , which

9:31

is a very big difference . I'm currently also

9:33

evaluating projects for a German program

9:36

companies for a German program and

9:38

a lot of them are focusing on one

9:40

game right and not on building

9:42

a company , and that's something

9:45

I see different in the people

9:47

matt and his team brought together or

9:49

educated them to think also like

9:51

that yes , you

9:53

are there to build games , but

9:55

you are building a company

9:58

that is building games , and not only

10:00

one game , but hopefully several

10:02

games , and potentially also in a network

10:04

with other studios and friends

10:08

and partners across the globe

10:10

potentially , and I found

10:12

that pretty outstanding that they

10:14

all have this mindset , that they want to build

10:17

a company that

10:19

does games and that

10:21

they also don't want to do it alone and

10:23

really are asking for help and asking

10:25

questions . That's a big difference . Also

10:27

, if you talk to people on stage

10:30

right and everybody is there

10:32

silence , and yeah , yeah , okay , thank

10:34

you . Can you send me the presentation

10:36

later ? No , I

10:38

don't send you the presentation . It's your job

10:41

to listen , to take notes

10:43

and to process what's going on and ask

10:45

me questions and make the best out of the time

10:47

for me and for yourself . And

10:49

the companies that are in the

10:51

scaffold program are really doing that . They're

10:53

really um , investing and

10:55

listening and and asking great

10:57

questions , so I see a big potential

10:59

there so

11:03

now , when we , when we talk about these companies , how

11:05

, how many are we talking about ?

11:07

Matt ?

11:11

What does Scaffold have in its stable right now ? Well , I think the next cohort that we push

11:14

through and our cohorts generally

11:16

are about 20 different founding teams . The

11:19

program runs for about a year , so

11:21

there's a bit of an overlap , kind of

11:23

a shelving thing , between them . Our

11:25

goal is 100 companies through the program by

11:29

mid-25 , pushing into 26 . And

11:32

the idea is to we set this

11:34

moonshot goal of doubling the size of the game industry

11:36

in the province and really it's about taking

11:39

those GarageBand indies and

11:41

making them into companies , because

11:44

it's great , you can learn a lot sitting

11:46

and working with your dorm mate and kind of building games

11:48

. But the big move is actually

11:51

hanging out your shingle . So that's our goal

11:53

and so far I think we're we're tracking

11:55

. Right now I think there's about 70 companies in the program

11:58

. Next cohort starts in January . That'll

12:00

take us like right up to the a hundred

12:02

founder mark and

12:05

so far we did a survey

12:07

on our KPIs and I shared this with Adam last

12:09

week and I think 30%

12:12

of the people that are in the cohorts already

12:14

are reporting success in either negotiating

12:16

a big deal , raising financing

12:18

or developing relationships

12:21

with a potential licensing partner . So that's

12:23

pretty good for one year . 30% are saying , okay

12:25

, the needle's moving , that's

12:27

great .

12:28

Yeah , that seems significant . Yeah , yeah

12:30

, so okay , and

12:32

, as you said , that's tracking and

12:34

it's ambitious , you know , doubling the size

12:37

of the ecosystem . I

12:44

want to go back briefly to what

12:46

Michael said about how the teams seem

12:49

engaged to build a company . So

12:51

I imagine that's part of what the scaffold

12:53

program is helping these companies or

12:56

these designers start to think

12:58

about , think more broadly than just a product

13:01

. Can you speak a little bit to that and

13:03

how that looks ?

13:03

yeah , of course , yeah of course I'd be delighted

13:06

to um , I

13:08

guess michael did put it very well like some people approach

13:10

it from more of an artistic point of

13:12

view . Uh , naturally I have a game

13:14

I want to make . I'm inspired by a game , or

13:17

I've worked for a big triple , a studio

13:19

or studios . I've been hired

13:21

and laid off , and hard laid off , and I want to do it my

13:24

way . Uh , for the first time

13:26

, with peers , with friends and people I've worked with and

13:28

I think that's been the big differentiator for

13:31

us is showing them the

13:33

potential of building something that lasts

13:35

, not just a project , but

13:38

something that is capable of producing repeated

13:40

good works . And what we try to do is

13:42

we're bringing people in these weekly

13:45

master classes that we hold . We

13:47

do them via Zoom and

13:49

we'll bring in like a Tyler Sigmund from Red Hook Studios

13:51

or a Sean Woods

13:53

from Alpha Dogs . These are people that started other

13:55

similar small studios in different

13:57

parts of Canada and have had the ups

14:00

and downs and backs and forths and led to the big

14:03

exit , and they talk about it as being like

14:05

a life-changing moment , not just

14:07

for themselves or , in in the case of Alpha

14:10

Dog and Halifax , for people in that ecosystem , the

14:12

community , but also for their

14:14

employees , the opportunities

14:16

they give for them to work

14:18

on bigger projects and do bigger things and

14:21

not just be kind of working paycheck

14:25

to paycheck or build and build . We

14:27

bring in people from Silicon Valley

14:29

, new York , to kind

14:31

of bring out what Henrik

14:34

would call his sad hammer . Henrik is one of our guys from

14:36

Europe . He

14:39

calls it his sad hammer . He's Swedish , maybe it's a Thor

14:41

thing , I don't know . But to give them initially

14:44

some very frank feedback

14:46

. When people would initially start talking

14:48

about their companies , they'd say I'd like to be able

14:50

to work full-time on my games . And they would just

14:52

do the needle scratch , stop and say , not

14:56

interested . How are you going to change

14:58

things ? How are you going to build a company in Red

15:00

Deer ? How are you going to build a game

15:02

that's going to change people's perspective ? How

15:04

are you going to get me as an investor in silicon

15:06

valley , excited ? So we're really

15:09

trying to kind of expectation

15:11

set . Like you know , try to get , try to get bar

15:13

raising .

15:14

There's part of their mentality well , you know , as

15:16

we're talking about this , I can't help but thinking

15:18

. You said the word creatives . Um , you

15:20

know where you've , you've got . Uh , you see this

15:22

a lot in music , a lot in art , a lot obviously

15:25

in video games too . People

15:27

just doing a one-off , whether it's a

15:29

video game or an album or whatever

15:31

it is . How you know , when it becomes

15:34

this kind of this thirsty , this hungry

15:36

artist , this kind of mental

15:38

picture that we have , you have to suffer for your art

15:40

. But commodifying

15:43

an art is not

15:45

necessarily a bad thing If you

15:47

can turn that into your full-time gig and

15:49

there's people and networks to help you build

15:52

that like Scaffold , like

15:54

the work Michael's doing as

15:56

well in Europe and Adam's doing through

15:58

Alberta Innovates . I think that's

16:01

a real neat perspective

16:03

in how we're moving

16:06

the dial perspective and how we're kind

16:08

of moving the dial .

16:10

Well , one thing that's interesting as well and maybe Michael will speak to this is the role

16:12

that alternative financing can play for an industry like Alberta's

16:14

. You know we are not AAA dominated

16:16

Quite the opposite in some ways and

16:19

Kickstarter has been like one of the initial

16:21

. Here is a way to fund

16:24

your dreams with people that are dreaming

16:26

the same way , and Kickstarter

16:29

, I think , has had a real renaissance of late . He and I were talking about

16:31

some numbers when he was here in Alberta and I was like , oh my gosh

16:33

, you guys have . You

16:35

guys are back in a profound way , and that's , I think , really

16:37

good news for companies here in Alberta

16:39

that can work with guys like Michael to really

16:42

understand how to use that platform .

16:43

Right . So , Michael , let's dive a little

16:45

bit into kind of the Kickstarter

16:48

model and what that renaissance

16:50

is looking like .

16:51

So , just to be on the safe side

16:53

, everybody knows Kickstarter is a crowdfunding

16:56

platform . It's project-based

16:58

and reward-based . It means it

17:02

is a game and you give

17:04

10 Canadians and you get a game back

17:06

. That's the project and that's the

17:08

reward you get need to get back . If

17:11

it's not funded , nothing happens

17:13

. Um . So no , no

17:15

credit cards are debited and

17:17

no game is made . Um

17:20

, that's the idea . What

17:22

we see is that today

17:25

more than ever , kickstarter has become

17:27

part of the funding puzzle

17:29

. I call it or actually we in the scaffold program

17:31

tend to call it that in general is

17:34

that you never only have one source of money

17:36

. No matter which creative project you do right

17:38

or company you build , you

17:40

always have your own money

17:42

, your friends , fools and family , your

17:45

grandmother , your neighbors

17:48

, whatever . Then you have investors

17:51

, you have the bank , you have public

17:53

funding and you have the crowd through

17:55

crowdfunding and then later also the

17:57

sales that give you the

18:00

money back after shipping . Kickstarter

18:04

has started

18:07

as being what the name says

18:09

an initial ignition

18:11

into the creative process and

18:14

showing demand . Yes , this

18:16

idea is great . People want this idea

18:18

to become a reality . 2007

18:22

, 8 , 9 , up until 14

18:24

now , with

18:27

the whole industry evolving

18:29

, becoming more mature and also

18:31

the different sources

18:33

of funding also increasing , like

18:35

you have in Alberta or Canada , public

18:37

funding programs . That helps a

18:40

lot to allow people

18:42

to add Kickstarter

18:44

at a later stage in

18:46

the project development and the marketing

18:48

process . So this is something

18:50

where we also see a professionalization

18:52

in general within the smaller

18:55

studios on how they approach

18:58

their fundraising strategy , including

19:01

, at the same time , the self-marketing

19:04

strategy , including

19:07

then their marketing

19:10

to consumer strategy and

19:12

kickstarter then being one part . Today

19:14

, the quality of how the

19:16

campaigns are built is amazing . Like

19:19

you can't just go there and say , hey , I want

19:21

to do a game , here's my text

19:23

, this is me , me . I'm awesome

19:25

, it will be great , trust me . No

19:28

, you need a video , you need GIFs , you

19:32

need a full story . You need to also share your funding story

19:35

like how did you get the money to

19:37

get where you are now ? And then ideally

19:40

, you only need like a year or

19:42

one and a half years , two years

19:44

max to actually then ship

19:46

onto Steam Steam , the world's

19:49

biggest direct distribution platform

19:51

for video games . There

19:53

you do then kind of early access

19:55

, which is a bit of an open

19:57

beta program where people buy in

19:59

in the early stage of the game and

20:01

then after five years , you really

20:03

go out in full development and

20:08

we see a change , a lot , and this

20:10

is what I think Matt was trying

20:12

to get to . With

20:14

a healthy ecosystem

20:16

of like-minded people who are sharing

20:19

ideas , you can

20:21

be ahead of the game because you have

20:23

to be creative . Today , after the

20:25

pandemic and after the global financial

20:28

crisis , the world is

20:30

different and it will continue

20:32

to be different and it will evolve differently

20:34

than it had evolved

20:37

up until now . And this is

20:39

where Kickstarter , hopefully already

20:41

, is playing a bigger role . But

20:44

also thanks to the people Matt's bringing

20:46

in , or the Scaffold program is bringing in , this

20:50

funding puzzle can actually become a full

20:52

picture at the end and

20:54

games get made .

20:57

I love that notion of the funding puzzle . Sorry , go

20:59

ahead , Matt .

21:01

Oh no , just to speak to that and Michael

21:03

nailed it . Really , when we first started here

21:05

, people were just thinking I've got to get

21:07

a publisher . If I don't get a publisher

21:09

, I have to self-release and that's

21:11

it . Now we did a session

21:14

at Platform Calgary as the run-in

21:16

to Game Invest West . Suddenly

21:18

, people in the mix were talking about how

21:21

do I do bridge financing ? How do I work with my

21:23

commercial bank ? There are these

21:26

federal programs that we're tapping into , what's working

21:28

, what's not working . So suddenly

21:30

you've got this very rich

21:32

diet of options , including working

21:34

with Kickstarter and whatnot . And part of the way

21:36

you work with people like Kickstarter or the big corporates

21:39

or Silicon Valley folks is you

21:41

bring them here . You make a personal

21:44

connection with folks , and

21:46

when we were at Game Best West , you

21:53

know one of our founders is also a certified trail guide , so we took some of our international

21:55

delegates on a series of hikes just to show them some of the natural beauty

21:57

, and this turned it into kind of an interesting . It's not

21:59

just a pitch event , it's a bonding

22:02

event , it's a let's make some friendships

22:04

, and people like to work with their friends

22:06

. So I know , Michael , you

22:11

weren't as challenged as you hope to be on the hikes , but there's some great photographs

22:13

of you folks tackling the lower foothills at least no bears

22:15

?

22:15

no , uh , running elk we were . We were

22:18

hunting the bears , but they were smarter

22:20

than us , um , so they ran away and hid

22:22

they

22:24

kept themselves scarce for sure .

22:27

No , but that's what's great . Yes , well

22:29

, I'm glad . And was that your first time in in

22:31

bam ? First time in alberta ?

22:33

yeah , sorry listeners , before um I

22:36

got invited , I didn't even know alberta

22:38

exists , um as a province

22:40

. I knew calgary , um

22:43

as a city and banff

22:45

also as a city and Banff also as a city , but I didn't

22:47

know the bigger concept of Alberta . So

22:51

, yes , I learned a lot . I did my research

22:53

also and checked on some stuff and

22:55

and was really excited it was great

22:58

and how

23:00

they also organized it with the bonding

23:02

and friend stuff . So one of the

23:04

cohort studios

23:06

, like a startup guy , picked me up at the

23:08

airport in calgary , took me out

23:10

for dinner on the way and then

23:12

we actually landed in the hotel

23:15

. So these things were amazing . And

23:17

still today I'm whatsapping with the

23:19

guy left and right about beers

23:21

oh , that's fantastic .

23:23

Yeah , no , I . I love that . You want to do business

23:25

with your friends and you know when these things

23:27

come from a genuine place

23:30

, you know , a friendship and care

23:32

. I think it , you know it just

23:34

deepens those bonds . I

23:36

want to dive in a little bit to you

23:38

know , matt and Adam , how

23:41

did we through the

23:43

ecosystem development partnership

23:45

program ? How

23:47

did that relationship begin ? Yeah , why

23:51

don't we start with you , adam ? Did

23:54

Matt reach out to you ?

23:56

Yes , I believe . So I believe Matt

23:58

reached out first and I hadn't

24:00

heard of him before and we hadn't

24:03

done much work in the gaming sector

24:06

before . But , as

24:09

has been discussed , alberta has great talent

24:11

in the gaming industry , currently

24:14

has

24:17

great talent in in the gaming industry , uh , currently , and and we

24:19

have post-secondaries that are graduating additional uh , great talent

24:21

every every semester , and so , um

24:24

, when , when matt came

24:26

and and offered something

24:28

that we didn't have , uh

24:31

, articulated in the ecosystem

24:33

yet , it was really intriguing

24:35

to me . So

24:38

there have been disruptive layoff cycles

24:40

in the gaming industry in

24:42

Alberta specifically as

24:44

well , and so we had seen that

24:47

, and you know , major

24:49

employers have grown and contracted

24:51

and , as

24:53

is a somewhat common

24:56

story in in Alberta , you know , we felt

24:58

somewhat at at the of of

25:00

that and and that , uh , you

25:02

know , game developers in in our

25:04

industry didn't have control over their

25:06

destiny as much as they they could

25:09

, perhaps , and so , um

25:11

, I I think what Matt

25:13

offered was access to global

25:15

capital , but also

25:17

something that he

25:20

and Michael have been talking about bringing

25:22

in expertise from

25:25

around the globe to work

25:27

alongside our expertise

25:29

to

25:32

raise the game for the whole ecosystem

25:35

, and

25:42

often it's not about there not being enough funding

25:44

in the system , and it's certainly

25:47

not a question of not having enough talent , but knowing how to navigate , as

25:49

was mentioned , from Kickstarter to the other

25:51

funding mechanisms and

25:53

to know how to do that is really

25:57

overwhelming initially , and

25:59

so I think the

26:01

first or second conversation , matt

26:03

described a venture studio

26:05

model that sounded

26:09

somewhat familiar to us but

26:12

had key markings , like

26:16

you know . We think that one

26:18

of Matt's theses , I think , was , you

26:21

know , alberta could be getting more of the Canada

26:23

Media Fund and that

26:25

could fuel a lot of the initial

26:27

stages of growth . So

26:29

that was attractive . And

26:32

then bringing in partners with Shred

26:34

Capital and folks like Michael

26:37

really rounded out what

26:39

would be not just a training

26:41

exercise or a learning exercise

26:43

but a

26:45

helping exercise , and

26:50

so that made my ears perk up and

26:52

we continued conversations after

26:54

that . And , yeah

26:57

, what's your perception ?

26:59

yeah , well , you were talking about

27:01

. I was just asking myself the same question , like how

27:03

did we ? And we were introduced through

27:05

a contact at university ? Actually

27:08

, I just went to my email , went to the first one

27:10

I could find from you , which is like august

27:12

of 22 , and that's what it was . It was a

27:14

connection from somebody through universities . Uh

27:17

, you , you might not know this I'm still pleasantly

27:20

surprised by this . University of Alberta

27:22

has the second most

27:24

published papers related

27:26

to games and AI

27:28

in the world . Wow , it's not even close

27:30

right Number two , right behind , I

27:32

think , santa Cruz or somebody like that . So , so

27:35

again , you've got this potentiality

27:37

built up here . So it was a pretty , and

27:40

I talked to the people in the space that

27:42

said you know , something is

27:45

going to happen in alberta , but someone's going to kind of light

27:47

the match right , and this is

27:49

before we came here . I don't know if we're going to be

27:51

taking credit for lighting the match , I mean , you know

27:53

, but maybe we're helping kind of move things in that

27:55

direction , you're streaming

27:57

on Astro Radio now . Hopefully

28:00

I got a little better than that , but I want a flamethrower

28:02

. But that's just me . So

28:04

one thing that I mentioned was the Canada

28:06

Media Fund , which is sort of the first

28:09

check , often written for Canadian

28:11

game companies . And you know , when you talk to Michael

28:13

or you talk to our European colleagues , they're

28:16

like there's nothing like this , we don't have access to that

28:18

. That's an amazing program but

28:25

historically and I know Valerie Crichton will want to grab me by the ear when I say this

28:27

most of the money has started to drift towards , overwhelmingly

28:29

towards Toronto and Montreal companies

28:32

, to the point where people in Vancouver

28:34

refer to it as the Montreal Game

28:36

Fund because so much money's gone

28:38

there . So we've really made that a point

28:41

of like . Okay , we want to make sure our folks don't give

28:43

up on it , that they're aware of it , that they

28:45

pool their knowledge , that we help them to focus

28:48

it so that they're sharing best practices

28:50

. And you know we're looking for some

28:52

stats right now . But I know that our win rate's gone way

28:55

up with our Alberta companies . The industry

28:57

average is about 20%

28:59

are successful . Our

29:01

Alberta companies that we coach and show them how to

29:04

approach it . Success rate of

29:06

about 65% .

29:08

Okay , so define success . For me , that's getting the Canada

29:10

fund .

29:12

Okay , Building an application

29:14

for different levels . There's

29:17

all different levels . We're still moving up that chain

29:19

. For most people , the success

29:22

rate globally is

29:24

20% of people who apply not quite

29:26

get money . People

29:28

in Alberta that we've been working with the success rate

29:30

is closer to 65% .

29:32

That's really significant . That sounds like

29:34

you're lighting a match . You're lighting

29:36

a flame .

29:39

To pick a different metaphor . I want to break the

29:41

casino . We'll see if we can pull that

29:43

off .

29:47

My original question . I come

29:50

from a marketing communications background . The

29:52

question behind how did you meet ? Was

29:54

how did you hear about the

29:56

ecosystem development partnership program

29:58

? And to hear that it's you know , in

30:01

the ecosystem . You're talking to people at the university

30:03

and they , hey , have you met adam , have you ? This

30:06

is what I love about this notion of networking

30:08

and knowing people who know something

30:11

. Who can you know ? Like this is

30:13

how things , um , you know , when you

30:15

have that community of people that are talking , you

30:18

know and then obviously , like you , matt , you

30:20

seem to know a lot of people . And then

30:22

now you bring Michael into the picture . Michael

30:24

knows a lot of people and we start to see

30:26

a real proliferation of

30:29

the ecosystem . And , if I

30:31

may really quickly , last week

30:33

we had done a podcast with our colleagues from

30:35

Thin Air Labs and a company called

30:37

Chasm Consulting and

30:40

we're speaking about the

30:42

ecosystem and the sectors

30:44

within the ecosystem touting their own

30:46

stories . So it's important

30:48

that your clients

30:51

, you know , within the scaffold

30:54

program , are also talking

30:56

about their stories on social media

30:58

and stuff , because that's really starts to leverage

31:01

, but it's it's almost like narrative as the

31:04

rising tide well

31:06

, we actually just to speak that quickly .

31:07

I don't want to hog the conversation here , but very

31:11

much agree with what you're saying . And can Canadians in general

31:13

have this humble ? We don't really talk

31:15

about stuff as the way we should

31:17

, frankly . So we actually

31:19

saw that in our participants

31:22

. So we brought in this woman from New York

31:25

called Amanda Goetz that I followed online

31:27

, extraordinarily

31:29

talented young woman who talks about building

31:31

your company in public , so through

31:34

social channels . So she gave a 90

31:36

minute legitimate masterclass , probably the best

31:38

one we've done , highest turnout

31:40

, no one dropped off the call and she broke

31:43

it down Like here's exactly how

31:45

you do LinkedIn to grow your business

31:47

. And she basically said like you

31:49

know , within Scaffold you have a natural what's known

31:51

as an engagement pod in

31:53

the industry , where people help

31:56

reinforce each other's message . They help amplify

31:58

each other's messages . So I challenge

32:00

people in Scaffold let's form

32:02

an engagement pod . Let's let you guys start

32:04

reinforcing each other's message

32:07

, sharing and liking and boosting and commenting on

32:09

it . Let the algorithms do the rest and

32:11

we're starting to see some progress there . But

32:13

I mean these folks . And she

32:15

said God bless , amanda . She said right off

32:17

the front this will feel

32:19

icky , you know , telling

32:22

your story and talking about yourself and right

32:24

. Oh my God , Painful , painful , painful

32:27

. But she just

32:29

gave people permission to feel icky , basically

32:31

saying we all feel this way , but

32:34

we have to do this now .

32:36

And I think too and again not to

32:38

belabor the point , but I think when you get people talking

32:40

about their stories , other

32:42

people look at that and they go oh

32:45

god , I see myself in that . So

32:47

you're sharing , it's a knowledge translation

32:50

, it's knowledge sharing as

32:52

well . Now , michael , do

32:54

you see that , does that sort of thing happen in

32:56

in europe ? Do you see where you

32:58

know you get , you get startups uh

33:01

, in in in their networks

33:03

, helping , helping you know

33:05

, thrive through narrative . And

33:09

I don't mean to change the speed entirely on you guys , but

33:11

this feels relevant to me as well .

33:15

Yeah , definitely it is . So

33:18

there , canada and most

33:21

Central European cultures are pretty

33:23

similar . I need to just speak for the

33:25

Germans now . So , yeah , for us it are pretty similar . Let me just speak for the Germans now . So

33:28

yeah , for us it's very similar

33:30

. We don't brag publicly

33:32

about what we do . Self-marketing

33:35

is bad

33:37

and nobody wants to do it , and that's

33:40

what you have marketing people for , et cetera

33:42

, pp . But

33:45

everybody knows that the

33:47

world has changed and you have

33:50

to have your profile out there and you have to be

33:52

visible out there . So

33:54

, yes , we are trying to do that , and

33:57

there is something

33:59

like Sorry

34:02

, my kiddo wants to join the conversation

34:04

. That's

34:07

the next generation . Yes , there's

34:10

something like informal

34:15

collectives we see popping up

34:17

and forming in the indie scene

34:19

, specifically where you have

34:21

in Germany and Berlin , saftladen , for example

34:24

. That's actually an office where

34:26

20 studios share a space

34:28

together , all game developers

34:30

, and then they have a public website

34:33

, they have a Steam profile

34:36

like a curator , they

34:39

have social media and they

34:41

really incentivize to share everything . Just

34:44

a number , because also , numbers are always

34:46

strong . So , on Kickstarter video

34:49

games , the success rate

34:51

to reach the 100% funding goal

34:53

you set is an average 25%

34:56

globally . Hold

34:59

your breath If you have

35:01

10 backers only 10

35:04

, that's us plus our

35:06

families then

35:09

this average success rate already is at

35:11

50% . If you

35:13

have 25 backers so

35:15

one workshop in the Scaffold program

35:17

, all backing this campaign , average

35:20

success rate is already at roughly

35:23

65% . Rate

35:30

is already at roughly 65 percent . So the mistake most people do is not even

35:32

go to their neighbors , to their classmates , to the fellow

35:34

fellows they are like in close contact

35:36

with , and just put it

35:38

out there and hope for the best right . Another

35:41

statistic is Steam

35:44

, the digital distribution platform

35:46

I mentioned earlier . One game

35:48

out I don't know 5,000

35:50

, just random number . No , I don't really know the number

35:52

. Now , two games out below

35:56

1,000 . So like

35:58

really having the stamina

36:00

to build a game , publish

36:03

it then also , while doing the first game , thinking about the a game , publish

36:05

it then also , while doing the first game , thinking about the second

36:07

game , building a community around

36:09

it , your profile as a studio around it , and

36:11

then publishing the second game

36:14

. I don't know a fall of 80%

36:16

, 90% down of

36:19

studios who actually achieve that . So

36:21

it's mind-blowing if you think about

36:24

these numbers and what they actually mean . You

36:27

invested five years of time , money's

36:29

, talent , into doing your

36:31

first game and then you , sadly , you

36:34

know , crawl into bed whatever , instead

36:37

of using this opportunity to have

36:40

topics to talk about , build

36:42

your business , fundra , fundraise , etc . There's

36:49

a lot of things that Scaffold is doing really well , actually , in educating the

36:51

people to be aware of these topics

36:53

and support it's about being entrepreneurial

36:56

.

36:56

Picking up these tools that are there is so much

36:59

easier than it was when I got into this business 20

37:02

years ago . My God , you don't

37:04

want to become a grant writing machine and just well . If

37:06

the government doesn't fund me or the publisher doesn't take my phone

37:08

call , I'm done . It's like no , no , pick

37:10

up these tools . And we

37:13

see this happening . People are asking questions on our Slack

37:15

channels . Can people tell me about this

37:17

? We set up a Discord to do that . Is it working

37:19

? So if the community here starts to become

37:21

self-resilient among

37:24

the founders and we're seeing evidence of that already then

37:26

it takes on a life of its own . You

37:29

will need a scaffold to keep pushing

37:31

. If we do our job correctly , it'll start

37:33

to take off by itself , and if

37:35

you start to see successes , then that

37:37

is what's really going to drive people . One step

37:40

, adam , I don't know if I shared with you , is

37:42

that the kind of mid-tier companies in

37:45

the scaffold program are beginning

37:47

to hire many of the solopreneurs

37:49

that joined our program Because they bonded

37:52

through these events , through these masterclasses , they've

37:54

learned a bit from each other and the solo guys

37:56

have said well , I've got so much more to learn

37:59

, but I like these dudes that are working on

38:01

this game already . I'm going to join

38:03

forces with them and help them make

38:05

their game better . So that's the knowledge transfer

38:07

that we need in a health ecosystem .

38:09

That's the solution we want to see happen , yeah

38:11

yeah , so how

38:14

long has the program been running now ? Is

38:16

it over a year , just over a year ?

38:18

Just over a year .

38:19

If you had a game investment .

38:20

It would have been the year mark , I think Okay

38:22

, about halfway , About a year .

38:25

Okay , about halfway , about a year , okay . So

38:27

now you've got the next cohort starting

38:29

this January , and I'm

38:32

sure we'll have some listeners on here who

38:34

either are building games

38:36

or know someone that's building games . If

38:38

someone is interested in learning more or

38:40

participating in a future cohort

38:43

, how does that work and what does that look like

38:45

?

38:45

What should they do ? The best

38:47

way would just be to hit me up on LinkedIn . That's

38:49

the best way . Come , find me right there , I'm easy

38:51

to find . And then what we do is our team

38:53

will look at them and we look

38:55

at kind of where they are in the spectrum , like you know . How

38:58

far along are they ? What do they need , what do they bring

39:00

? And then we go through an onboarding

39:02

process where we see

39:04

what they want to get out of the program . Because

39:06

in some cases people come to us and we're like well , you

39:08

know , there isn't really an alignment yet , for whatever

39:11

reasons . Maybe they think they're too far

39:13

along and they need to focus on their game launch

39:15

. Full respect for that . Or

39:18

maybe like , oh well , you know , I'm still in university , Maybe

39:23

I'll , you know , learn a bit more before I jump out . Complete

39:25

respect for that . But generally we find a good fit and

39:28

then we slot them in and again

39:30

, we try to keep it manageable for people's

39:32

professional schedules . We

39:34

try to model it after a program I did at MIT

39:37

actually . So we do the Zoom

39:40

masterclasses of the main bread

39:42

and butter . We try to run those at lunchtime-ish

39:44

so that people can make

39:47

room in their lives for it . So it isn't a distraction

39:49

, it's additive . Now , occasionally we have to

39:51

move things around a bit because , as

39:53

you can see with Michael , it's late night

39:55

in Berlin In the master

39:58

class last week we had a person coming from Tokyo . We

40:01

do sometimes have to flex a bit because

40:03

if you want to get the best person and

40:05

that person is based in Sydney , you've

40:07

got to work on that a little bit . But the

40:09

really interesting thing I've found and Michael is

40:11

certainly a great example of this is

40:14

people really , when they understand what we're trying to do people

40:17

at Meta , people at Microsoft , people at big

40:19

companies , Tencent , Kickstarter they

40:22

may know me already , but

40:24

they really want to be part of what we're trying to pull off . They

40:26

really want to be part of , like seeding , this next

40:28

generation with their

40:31

connections and their ideas and what they've learned

40:33

, uh , coming through it . So I

40:35

found that very uh gratifying that

40:38

oh , I'm sure it was that kind of positive

40:40

feedback loop yeah , that's , that's

40:43

really cool .

40:44

Um , so , really quickly , when

40:46

you , when the founder , reaches out to you and says

40:49

you know , here's where we're at , this is what we're doing

40:51

you've illustrated a couple of cases where they've

40:53

you know , maybe they're staying in school or they're

40:55

doing something else with a launch , do you

40:57

ever get to the point where you're like there's nothing

41:00

we can do with you guys . At this point , I

41:02

suggest doing

41:04

like advice is there , you

41:06

know another ?

41:07

direction . Like , generally speaking , we

41:09

want them to give it a try . Right

41:12

, generally speaking , we want to get them into the first

41:14

cohort and we try to make

41:16

the first terms there's four terms . We try to get them that

41:18

first term and

41:20

let them see , because you know , I think there's

41:22

and look , I've done a lot of this stuff

41:24

over the years , like I've worked on canadian

41:26

, like business development

41:28

when I was running the trade office in new york and stuff like that

41:30

, and you know I used to have to advise my canadian clients

41:32

when they come meet people in these startup

41:34

ecosystems that are really thriving , I'd

41:37

say , look that the guy with the cargo shirts

41:39

and the ponytail , he might be the decision maker . The

41:41

guy with the suit might be his lawyer . So

41:43

I definitely don't want to be prejudging

41:46

people . I don't want them to prejudge themselves . I

41:48

want them to give it a shot and

41:51

surprise us and maybe surprise themselves and

41:53

then we find out what the potential

41:55

might look like . So what's

41:58

next ? Well , I think and Adam and I have talked

42:00

about this a bit I think we really and

42:02

certainly based on Michael's feedback as

42:04

well and other people that have

42:06

been involved we want to do Game Invest

42:08

West in 25 and 26

42:10

. Because some of these companies are just starting

42:12

now . They need a bit of time to mature

42:15

, to really be ready for that opportunity . We

42:17

had a great crop of 10 companies that we brought with us , but

42:20

we want to bring in a bigger delegation next

42:22

time and give more companies more at-bats

42:24

. We

42:29

may do more work in the run-up in Red Deer and Lethbridge and places so

42:31

that it's more integrated into the main event . So the first one worked

42:33

well a bit of an experiment , but

42:35

it worked really well . So I think we have a

42:37

good formula . I think right now it's just making

42:39

sure the next year we have three

42:42

people like Michael and three people like John

42:44

Polson and really bring

42:46

more people here . Because the experience

42:49

of the delegation , unfortunately , is a little

42:51

bit like what Michael had mentioned is the wasn't

42:53

really sure about Alberta , what

42:56

that meant , because Vancouver , montreal , takes

42:58

so much of the spotlight , but we're now

43:00

. We have a great story to tell and getting it on

43:02

the radar . I know what

43:04

you say , john . Would I want to be on the cover

43:06

of you know wired magazine , I

43:08

guess . But would I rather that 10 of our companies

43:11

were having meetings in the boardrooms of 10 big

43:13

corporates ? I'd rather

43:15

that you know so that

43:17

. That that's more . My philosophy is getting those

43:19

partnerships in place and having people at Amazon

43:22

games go oh right , alberta , you

43:24

know it's

43:26

on our radar . We like what they're making up there . We've got

43:28

partnerships up there . We've got people paying attention to it . We

43:30

know what we're getting when we go to Alberta . That's the

43:33

goal .

43:33

What's super important in my experience

43:35

is consistency and longevity

43:38

. I think you call it in English is

43:40

like it's not only a program

43:42

that runs for one or two years , not even

43:44

three . The

43:50

biggest mistakes I saw happening in Europe also in Germany , where we had programs that ended

43:52

after a year or even like

43:54

the longest running public funding

43:57

for the government federal fund

43:59

was four years . Developing

44:01

a video game takes three to

44:04

seven years , so you won't

44:06

even be able to see your results

44:08

if you end early . So

44:11

the super important thing is to have

44:13

these things running . You don't necessarily need to

44:15

grow yes , what Matt said , that's

44:17

a good , stable number , but it doesn't

44:19

need to be thousands of people coming

44:21

from across the globe to Banff , but

44:24

it's more important that you're out there consistently

44:26

at the same events like go to Gamescom

44:28

every year with the same group with the same

44:31

brand , invite a couple of

44:33

people every year again

44:35

and then have them talk about

44:37

it for five years in a row . That's

44:40

how I

44:42

would say these kind of things are successful

44:44

and not just a waste of money

44:46

in the end especially publicly wasted

44:48

if you don't wait until the labors

44:51

of the fruits of the labor

44:53

can be paid .

44:54

I think that's a great point . Yeah , consistency

44:56

and longevity , and people then become

44:58

to understand that this is something that happens

45:00

in the ecosystem . You can build things around

45:02

that . Yeah , I think that's that's

45:05

really well said in the ecosystem .

45:06

You can build things around that . Yeah , I think that's uh , that's really well

45:08

said , and I think it was mentioned earlier um with

45:10

um , just try it out and find out . This

45:13

spirit I think also us um

45:15

old white men need to um put

45:17

into these programs as well . Um

45:20

, what do we know what the future brings ? We

45:22

don't . We know what the past , why the past

45:24

was amazing or shitty or whatever , but

45:26

what's happening next ? Nobody

45:28

knows . So if we create frameworks

45:32

, rather than um setting

45:34

the goals for the companies but creating

45:37

frameworks where they then can thrive

45:39

, um , I think then then

45:41

we are up for a bright future with these

45:43

studios yeah , yeah .

45:44

So I think for us , john , we

45:49

expect to see some really promising

45:51

new ventures eventually come out of this and

45:55

lots of funding received

45:58

and some successful

46:01

games come to market ultimately , as

46:04

Michael just said , that's going to take time , but

46:06

I think the overall effect

46:09

of that is going to be much greater capacity

46:11

in the province and

46:13

more evenly distributed so that we

46:15

have a more resilient gaming

46:18

community . We hope , and so you

46:21

know , after this project ends

46:23

, for Innovates

46:26

when our funding ends , I think you

46:29

know , first of all , matt has already secured

46:31

some Prairie Scan funding so we

46:34

get to extend the scope of

46:36

this a little bit through federal matching

46:38

, which is great . I

46:43

think our suspicion is that , you

46:45

know , the needs of the ecosystem might be different

46:48

once it's matured like that and

46:53

we have more firms and they're doing great things and , you know , perhaps talent

46:55

is a bigger needed

46:58

focus or , you know , I think

47:00

we'll have to reassess in a couple of years . But

47:03

I think also , you know , what we're hopeful for

47:05

is that we might get some specialization out

47:07

of this . So once

47:10

we have a sturdier

47:12

gaming industry , we might

47:14

see what you know areas

47:16

of momentum build up and what specific

47:21

, you know unique capacities we

47:23

have in the province , and so

47:25

Matt and I have talked about this , and

47:28

you know , john , that

47:30

we have amazing artificial intelligence

47:32

expertise

47:35

in the ecosystem as well . Earlier

47:39

this year we saw Artificial Agency

47:41

, a local gaming plus

47:44

AI company , do

47:46

a really big , successful

47:49

raise , and so , you know

47:51

, I'm hopeful , maybe , that

47:53

those two technologies , those two communities

47:55

, could create some

47:57

momentum together in the future . And so we'll

48:00

have to wait , and you know we're

48:02

seeing really exciting green shoots from

48:05

scaffold in the industry right now

48:07

, but I think the future

48:10

could be even brighter , and I don't know that

48:12

we know what it will look like exactly yet

48:14

, but we're tracking it closely .

48:17

I think that's the exciting part , and I'm going to leave

48:19

the last word to

48:21

Matt .

48:22

I would just agree with what Adam said basically

48:24

and , john , I think you put it really nicely . I

48:26

mean , what I find exciting , what

48:28

gets me out of bed in the morning with this one and

48:31

helps drive the whole thing forward is we're

48:33

building an ecosystem here . I'm not going

48:35

to say from scratch , but

48:37

with all the turnover and changes

48:40

in the industry that we've seen over the past year , it's

48:42

rare you get a chance to kind of come in and

48:44

all the DNA is kind of available to

48:46

you . You know , what do we want

48:48

to build here ? We don't have to build what's

48:50

been built . We can build something more

48:52

international , more partner focused

48:54

, more focused on the

48:56

new advances in AI that weren't even

48:58

on the radar when Adam and I first started

49:01

talking , which was not that long ago . So

49:03

to me , like what we built here could be

49:05

special and we have a

49:07

chance to do it .

49:09

Thanks for joining us today on shifts . On behalf

49:11

of everyone here , I'm Jon Hagan . You

49:13

can find us online at shiftalbertainnovatesca

49:17

or at any one of those fine

49:19

streaming services out there . Have

49:21

a good one you

49:32

.